Burning flags
04 Feb, 2006 
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Isn’t there a law in Bahrain that criminalises burning of flags? Especially flags of those countries which we do have good relations with?
Well, this is Mohammed Khalid, the member of parliament and representative of the Northern District 6, sans slippers, burning the Danish flag to show his disapproval of the refusal of the Danish government to impose restrictions and penal actions on an independent newspaper which had the temerity to publish derogatory cartoons depicting our prophet Mohammed (pbuh).
Is he setting a good example to those around him? Fast forward 15 – 20 years; any idea how those kids standing around him and shouting their lungs out will actually turn out? Tolerant? Will they engage their brains before letting emotions run astray and resort to violence to settle disputes?
Not with what’s happening now, and this is not an isolated incident; Al-Wasat reports that up to 25 different demonstrations took place all around Bahrain, probably with similar scenes.
Does anyone other than myself think that Article 99 of the constitution should be enacted in this particular case? After all, isn’t what this respected member of parliament effectively doing is declaring war on a friendly country?
Re(2): Burning flags
I have myself been astonished at how tolerant Britain is about that kind of extremists, who come out with placards crying for the death and beheading of non-Muslims. In my country – European and democratic – there are laws against that sort of things. Laws which protect Muslims, as well as the non-Muslim majority. You go out demanding that all non-Muslims be killed – you go to jail (and if you aren’t a citizen, out you go, to where you came from). You go out demanding that all Muslims be killed – you go to jail.
One part of the problem is the anti-authoritarianism and libertarianism that has been going on far too long in those Anglo-Saxon countries and is polluting the rest of us. People have no respect for good, equal, secular law which protects everybody, Muslim or non-Muslim, against thugs. Instead, thugs are being given free rein, and everybody is unhappy but the thugs.
As regards the protests in Muslim countries, it is quite clear that they have been exploited by local undemocratic leaders to turn the eyes of the people away from local social problems. Which are, as we know, huge in most Muslim countries: if you do not live in a poor, hungry Third World place, then you live in a rich, corrupt petrocracy.
Re(5): Burning flags
[quote]Now stop your whining and offer proper arguments and suggestions that we can engage you in.[/quote]
At this time, I have no other suggestion than KEEP SHOUTING, and see to it that others keep shouting, too. If you shout long enough, even we in the West will hear. If you are numerous enough and shout loud enough to make Osama’s friends fear, then we will definitely hear you, too.
Re(6): Burning flags
Correct me if I am wrong, Mahmood, but isn’t Syria’s Assad dynasty somehow non-Muslim? I thought they belonged to some kind of obscure religion that is neither strictly Muslim nor Christian.
Burning flags
I’ve seen worse…
http://www.shopmetrospy.com/
[img]http://www.shopmetrospy.com/buy_graphics/325_mowham02.jpg[/img]
Re(2): Burning flags
[quote]I recommend strict law enforcement and intelligence collection in the short term, education and constrained immigration in the long term. It would be good for laws to be passed to identify all individuals and organizations receiving Saudi money.[/quote]
I agree entirely with you, but for the most part the legislation is there already, at least in my country. The problem is, that it is impossible to hire anybody for intelligence services who would have any idea of Arabic, Persian, or other relevant languages, and to teach those languages to policemen…oh no. Oh no.
Re(7): Burning flags
They are Muslims, their sect is called “Alawis” or “Alawite”. Have a look at this entry in Wikipedia for more information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alawite
Re(6): Burning flags
I think getting a sore throat, be branded a useless trouble maker, be shunned and swept into the dust-bin of history is more like what you will achieve, if your method is adopted, with all due respect. Shouting never solves problems. Clear-headed thinking and engagement does.
Re(8): Burning flags
Then this explains why Syria gets along so well with Iran? The Alawis don’t harbor the same ill will towards the Shi’? Am I thinking correctly?
Re(9): Burning flags
I think there must be a deeper shared interest between the two countries than just sect or religious affiliation. Although both the Shi’a and Alawites do give some importance to Imam Ali, the Alawites much more than the Shi’as of course, but I think their political partnership transcends mere religious affiliation even though some might want us to believe it is simply so.
Burning flags
Here is an interesting link showing numerous pictures of Mohammed over the centuries:
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/
Burning flags
I think you are you right. The common ground is the importance of Ali which allows the political partnership to work. I had always incorrectly assumed Syria was Sunni and as such have always been puzzled by the idea of Sunni Syrians (say that fast 3 times!) working hand in hand with Shi’ Iranians. I suppose in retrospect I should have know this little tidbit of info but alas the old adage is correct you learn something new everyday!
God in Print?
[b]T[/b]he caricatures of Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon Him), nearly five months after initial publication, has caused a great hew and cry: flag burnings, destruction of merchandise, demonstrations, ugly chants, the beating of Europeans, hostage taking„l in the name of the prophet. I consider it a low blow to make a cartoon of any religious figure, be it Abraham, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed or Vishnu.
These people are revered and adulated by hundreds of millions of people around the globe. Though personalities like Tony Blair, George Bush, Jacques Chiraq or Ariel Sharon seem fair game for cartoonists from Tokyo to Seattle, not to forget Cairo and Riyad, Arab artists wouldnÂ?ft have to think twice about sketching for publication their amirs, sultan and kings that rule their countries.
Even tolerant Bahrain has a draft press law spelling out dire consequences should anyone offend the countryÂ?fs leadership or a journalist or cartoonist write or draw something unflattering about them, the sacred cows, as it were, of the region. Freedom of the press, of opinion and of _expression is clearly stunted in a vast swath of the Middle East.
In the religious context, one of the most flagrant abuses of religious freedom is witnessed in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. There seems to be an inherent fear of other religions and faiths in that country except for Islam as other beliefs might possibly taint their citizens.
Though Christianity and Judaism were influential for centuries in that country before Islam, in the past decades, the kingdom has tried to suppress entirely the religious life of other religions though even Mohammed permitted Christians to worship in the precincts of a mosque near Mecca. Christians and Jews, after all, according to the prophet, are ahl al kitab (people of the Book), must be respected even if they don�ft have exactly the same approach to God nor identical customs and worship practices. In Saudi Arabia, the Church has gone underground„Ÿnot so in any of the other gulf countries.
An eighth-century church unearthed in the 1980s on the eastern shores of Saudi Arabia caused great embarrassment to the kingdom. Scholars even believe that that edifice had originally been a synagogue. So, in Saudi Arabia today, people in prayer groups at home can be arrested and expelled from the country, Bibles are confiscated and burned, practicing Christians are forced to sign statements to renounce their Christian faith, vowing never to practice it again, priests are imprisoned and expelled, crucifixes are destroyed.
No wonder Saudi Arabia doesnÂ?ft want to support any boycott of Denmark or other countries because of the cartoons of Mohammed as their own religious-tolerance level is so dismal. While the queen of Denmark is unlikely to express her regrets over cartoons, Saudi King Abdulla is hardly likely to apologise for his countryÂ?fs total disrespect for Jesus, or Prophet Isa, and for the adherents of that faith.
Christianity, however, isn’t the sole target of the Saudi vigilantes but Hindu sacred tomes found in people’s luggage are also seized and destroyed, even if they’re consider heirlooms, passed down for generations. The issue of cartoons is a much larger topic that needs to be addressed and roundly debated… without violence.
[b]Abdulla Saeed[/b]
Re(2): Burning flags
OK, I’ll admit, I did laugh at that.
Steve
Re(1): Burning flags
You need to get out of the lefty bunker and walk around my friend. Conservative T-shirts mocking the deserving have been around for decades.
Steve
Re: Burning flags
Give me a reason to change my mind, Johnster, and I’m likely to do it. However, simply saying that something comes across as fatuous is not very persuasive. I’m am convinced by objective facts, not subjective feelings.
Steve
Re: Burning flags
Nice scarf. stupid t-shirt. hey, does the cartoonist get any royalty checks for any of the sold t-shirts?
Re: Burning flags
What a website! Its the first time I see a conservative website trying to send its message through ‘humor’ (and make a quick buck as well). Unfortunately for them, its not [i]that[/i] funny, as satire is usually done better by liberals. No explanation for why that is, but I guess its because they’re not as uptight as the compassionate conservatives (clearly not the person incharge of this ruckus). Except for George Bush. He’s funny. In a depressing way, that is.
Re: A sane voice…
Christine,
In America, we say that a Republican is a Democrat who has been mugged. Perhaps in Denmark, a conservative is a liberal whose tolerance has been abused.
The cartoon jihad is the clash of civilizations in miniature and foreshadows future conflict. Islam is a supremacist, expansionary, and violent creed. It is supremacist in that it demands that everyone respect it while offering no respect to others. You can see this in its demand that apologies be made for the cartoons of Mohammed while making no apology for the most vituperative cartoons it produces, such as the one this week of Hitler sleeping with Ann Frank. I don’t recall a Muslim leader making an apology for anything. They only demand them as their due.
The expansionary aspect of Islam can be seen in its demand that Denmark’s media conform to Muslim practice. It can also be seen in the Muslim disinclination to integrate with its host societies but form colonies and demand their hosts change to suit Muslim law and custom. It is also evident in the campaign of Islamic terrorism around the world to convert countries to Islam, then combine them into Muslim super-states with the ultimate goal of world ruled by an Islamic Caliphate.
The cartoon jihad may seem silly, but if Denmark were to concede to the unreasonable demands of the radical Muslims, it would encourage them to demand more and more. You probably should reconsider what you are willing to tolerate and draw a bright line where your tolerance ends. Then you should be ready to make a strong defense of your culture, because this will not be the last time it will come under assault by Islam. This is a conflict that will go on for the rest of our lives and beyond.
Steve
Burning flags
Anonymous…I don’t think you should post that picture without Mahmood’s permission.
thinker
Re(1): Burning flags
[quote]Moderates will win. It stands to reason that we should.[/quote]
Not true, Mahmood.
We have seen, historically that moderates do not -win-, they merely survive and adapt to the nutcases willing to kill them for their beliefs. The Jews during the exile were ‘moderates
Re: Burning flags
Thanks Thinker. I’ll let it stand at this time. These images have grown in a viral fashion and no one can now stop them.
Re(2): Burning flags
In ancient history you are right, I don’t think that your arguments hold any water now, however. If the only way for moderates to win is to resort to violence, that makes them nothing more than extremists!
The only way to go forward in this world is through moderation, and world support. The “global village” now must support moderates and exert pressure on extremism to eradicate it and achieve peace and harmony.
I can see this happening right now. I can see a few Arab and Muslim voices against this hostile halucination that is sweeping the majority of our world; yet, the few voices who are speaking up are gaining ears and are unafraid to voice their opinions because they know that the larger world opinion will support them, as they must.
Burning flags
“I stand by my point and have given my example of the Balkans to support it.”
Darn it Steve….there was I thinking you might change your mind
Burning flags
Nice thread, Mahmood. I like your blog and keep coming back here expecting a new post. However, this is such an important issue, and you are getting A FEW good responses, that I hope you will run it for a few more days. It will certainly (possibly?) help world understaning/peace if you do.
Thanks.
—Dan
[Modified by: Citizen Quasar (Dan) on February 07, 2006 12:25 AM]
Burning flags
Let them post all the pictures they wish if it makes them feel good about themselves.. This is a free world and everyone has the right to free speech..
Instead of demonstrating and fighting back, I hope all muslims can just join together and say, “Allah Esamhkum”..
Ahmed
Burning flags
Anonymous…AKA: Ahmed.
Please tell me what “Esamhkum” is. I speak English and Mahmood has chosen to make this an English speaking blog.
Thank you.
—Dan
[Modified by: Citizen Quasar (Dan) on February 07, 2006 12:32 AM]
Burning flags
Forgive them..
Sorry about that..
Ahmed
Burning flags
Ahmed:
Thank you.
—Dan
Re(5): Burning flags
I hear you.
Feeling that I had always supported Palestine and the muslims in my own country when I felt they were victims of unjust attacks, I must admit I was starting to think “what, I have been standing up to THESE guys?” I do feel that Denmark is currently the target of lots of different kinds of anger towards the west, arabic governments, other divisions of islam. And as Denmark is such a small country that poses a threat to noone, everyone is allowing for it to happen.
I have found some relief, however, in the blogosphere. People like you might not reach as far as people on tv, but I have seen a lot of arabic reactions that are much more sane and promising. That has calmed me and given me a new sense of hope. So thank you for speaking your mind. It does matter and it does help.
Kristian Dupont from Denmark
A sane voice…
Dear Mahmood,
Thank you very much for been a sane voice in what is more and more blatantly becoming an insane world.
I would like to comment on recent events from the point of view of an ordinary Dane, as I hear only a few peeps in the international debate and most of them from the extreme right. They do not represent me, as your fundamentalists do not represent you. I have never thought of myself as being, in any way shape or form, a racist, nor do I have a problem with people who chose to practice a different religion than mine. I must confess, however, that recent event has put my professed tolerance to the test.
Let me start my clarifying: The cartoons/drawings were not published in an attempt to be funny. They were published – as I believe Steve pointed out – as a commentary to events in Europe over the last couple of years: The murder of the Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh (who had participated in the making of the film “Submission”) by radical Muslims; the attack on an (I believe) Swedish artist, who had depicted the Prophet; and finally the problems faced by a Danish author, who was writing a children’s book about the Prophet – he could not find an artist, who was willing to illustrate the book unless the artists could remain anonymous.
The paper chose to ask different illustrators to draw the Prophet [i]the way they saw him[/i], wondering how many artists would answer the call.
The publishing of the cartoons sparked much debate back in my country. A constructive and pretty much sober debate over religious sensitivity, humor/satire, and freedom of speech. Most Danes, and, I believe, quite a few Muslims, chose to view the cartoons as a positive sign, a sign, that the integration process is working. When you poke fun at somebody, he is part of the club. If Muslims should be excempt from the form of political joking which is very much used in the public Danish debates, it would effectively be a sign, that they were not part of the club, that they were not part of our society.
If I have understood the whole bruhaha properly, the main grievance is over the drawing featured above(?). It is funny, in a very sad sort of way, that the way radical Muslims all over the world have chosen to react to the depictions, proves the illustrators point. The way he saw the Prophet, equalled the man with violence. The way people completely overreacted, burning flags, embassies and threatening the lives of Danish citizens in the name of religion, equals their religion with violence. If you equal my religion with violence, I will kill you?!?!? He just spoke ‘em as he saw ‘em.
By the way I am bemused, that the Muslim fundamentalists on the one hand think it horrific beyond the pale for a newspaper in a small, secular country to publish a drawing, which some people find insulting to their faith, but on the other hand find it completely allright for masses of people to burn my flag, step on my flag, burn pictures of my premier, and depict my queen as a cow ?!? Bemused might not be quite enough!
An apology seemed to me like a good idea a week or so ago ([i]Just say the word and get it over with already – it’s no skin off your back, and you did genuinely hurt some people![/i]). Now, however, I am not so sure – uhm make that: There is no way! Why should we apologise for something, which in Denmark is perfectly legal ([size=9]the newspaper has already apologized for hurting the feelings of Muslims, what they won’t apologize for, is printing the cartoons in the first place[/size]), to totallitarian regimes, in most of which human rights have appaling conditions (if they exist at all). I get a rather unpleasant taste in my mouth, when Saudi Arabia tries to lecture Denmark and Danes on freedoms and rights – We have been a democracy for 107 years come June – I think we are beginning to get the hang of it, thank you very much!
Furthermore I am sick to my stomach of me “having to try to understand” the Muslim point of view, when it is so clearly a one-way street:
Countless times our premier has tried to make the point that, allthough he, personally, does not agree with the decision to publish the drawings, we have a free press in Denmark, and he has absolutely no say over, what the newspapers can and cannot print. It does not sink in.
They want the cartoonists beheaded – Sorry folks, no can do. We haven’t had the death penalty since 1933 (except for a brief stint after WWII) Besides, I think beheading as a form of punishment was discontinued, along with the chopping of of other body parts, sometime in the 18th century.
They want an apology from the Queen… Well tecnically she is the Head of State, but we have a constitutional monarchy – she has no more power over the media, than the premier (ie. none).
It seems to me that the dialogue is increasingly becoming a shouting match. I hope very much that it will not turn out that he, who shouts the loudest, wins.
If you have read this far, I thank you – I ranted, I know, but it feels good to have gotten it of my chest.
Kindest regards
Christine
Re: A sane voice…
Christine, thank you for your input and I appreciate your views. When you say that “the dialogue is increasingly becoming a shouting match” I fully agree with you, and add that both participants seem to be deaf as well!
When they get sore throats and quieten down a bit, I hope that everybody will see what has been facing them from the start: the caricatures are in bad taste, and they should not have created this much resentment and an almost nucleur fallout. We (Muslims) need to just shrug off these things and get on with our lives. There are much more important things that the blessed Prophet will hold us to account to on the day of judgement than how he was portrayed in a graphical representation.
Burning flags
If you haven’t seen this already, check out http://www.sorrynorwaydenmark.com/
-ES
Burning flags
A REVIEW by Uncle J from Canada:
I was falling into an almost suicidal despair about the recent cartoon-based events and the future of the human species. Then I came across this website, where the proverbial Moderate Muslim generously and courageously hosts a forum for people to express their fear of Islam and discuss the Islamic religion/culture in a spirit of honest enquiry and open-mindedness. Maybe there is hope for the future. Thank you Mahmood.
My personal belief is atheism but I try to keep it personal rather than seeking converts – partly to get along with others who may be religious, and partly out of paranoia, as we unbelievers are usually the first targets of the theocratic control freaks. Here is my conclusion derived from reading history and observing the human experiment: in societies where God rules and the people in charge answer only to God, they answer to no one, and the Dark Ages set in. Progress, scientific discovery and human development have happened only in societies where public decisions are made according to reason, and religious belief is kept a personal matter. This was true, from what I am told by some Muslim writers, during the Golden Age of the Muslim world as well. Too bad about the current state of affairs.
P.S. Lest one become too smug about one’s own culture and its demons, you will be shocked by the threatening and violent abuse that an American dissident can expect for questioning his country’s beliefs [or at least the reactionary fundamentalist Christian Republican ones] – check out the ‘Net Hell’ section at the bottom of the website called ‘Conservatively Correct’
the URL is
http://rackjite.com/1beast.htm
Re: A sane voice…
Ups – Denmark has been a democracy for 157 years, not 107 as previously posted – sorry.
Christine
Re(8): Burning flags
Well, you are the Muslim, not I, so you know better, but to me it sounds rather exotic, not exactly the way I used to perceive Islam. There sure is quite a lot of Gnosticism there, quite reminiscent of Black Muslims in the United States.
Burning flags
Hatred is born of fear and fear is dissipated by knowledge.
Mahmood, you are a shining example.
Will
Real Story of Cartoon Jihad
Here is an excellent account of the hidden back story of the cartoon jihad by Amir Taheri of the New York Post, who claims that “the whole rigmarole was launched by Sunni-Salafi groups in Europe and Asia, with Ahmadinejad and his Syrian vassal, President Bashar al-Assad, belatedly playing catch-up. God had nothing to do with it.”
As the Muslim rabble-rousers shopped their goods around the Middle East last fall, the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas in Palestine were more interested in winning elections than fomenting propaganda riots and deferred. Al Jazeera, always eager to propagandize against the West, jumped on the cartoon jihad bandwagon with both feet.
Taheri concludes:
[quote]“People watching TV news may think that the whole Muslim world is ablaze with righteous rage translated into “spontaneous demonstrations.” The truth is that the overwhelming majority of Muslims, even if offended by cartoons which they have not seen, have stayed away from the street shows put on by the radicals and the Iranian and Syrian security services.
…
The Muslim crowds that have demonstrated over the cartoons seldom exceeded a few hundred; the Muslim segment of humanity is estimated at 1.2 billion. And only three of Denmark’s embassies in 57 Muslim countries have been attacked.
The Danish Muslim gang who lied by adding cartoons that had never been published has done more damage to the Prophet and to Islam than the 12 controversial cartoonists of Jyllands-Posten.
The fight between Denmark and its detractors is not between the West and Islam. It is between democracy and a global fascist movement masquerading as religion.” [/quote]
Read the whole thing.
Steve
Burning flags
Right on brother![http://emullah.blogspot.com]
On a side note why you want to keep all comments Anonymous even if people want to choose some identity.
Re: Burning flags
Thanks for confirming the incoherent and intractable hatred of Muslims for the West. Isn’t it interesting that you can be so outraged by a cartoon yet beheadings and snuff videos and mass slaughter done in the name of Islam does not outrage you a bit?
Steve
Re(1): Burning flags
No need to generalise Steve.
Our enraged friend, it is interesting to note, logged in from Melbourn in Australia. Not that would say much about the person of course, but one would think that that environment would have rubbed some local tolerance into them. Not in this case of course. Or is this attitude because of the recent racial troubles in Australia?
Re(2): Burning flags
Hmmm. That is an interesting fact, Mahmood. And yes, they are having the same kind of trouble with Lebanese Muslim gangs in Australia.
Steve
Burning flags
This is how they should react or do worse out of it… if i was there i would explod the bloody flag of that country which disrespcted islam… fuck you mother fuckers , suck my looooooooooooonnnng deck you all danish pimp… i know u won’t submit this letter… so i say that…….. FUCKKKKKKKKKKKK UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
ASSHOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSs
Burning flags — Cartoons!
I support the cartoon publications (or the right of . . .) and am tired of Muslims attempting to control my own freedoms of religion or speech. I am especially concerned about how Muslims (mainly those that follow strict Islamic laws) treat woman. Personally, this last points makes me feel that a great majority of Muslims are bigots and ignorant to the rights of others. When most Muslim women are given the “choice� to do X or Z, then I will be more open to listing to Muslims concerns about cartoons.
FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IS WESTERN TERRORISM
The Volokh Conspiracy features this photo of a Muslim woman in Kenya protesting the cartoons with a sign that neatly sums up the radical Muslim position:
“FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IS WESTERN TERRORISM”
That pretty much distills down what they are about.
Steve
Fight From The First Ditch
Mark Steyn comments in the Chicago Sun-Times on the new Muslim outrage at a blow-up male sex doll, sold in Britain, called Mustafa Shag:
[quote]The Muslim Association’s complaint, needless to say, is that the sex toy “insults the Prophet Muhammad — who also has the title al-Mustapha.”
In a world in which Danish cartoons insult the prophet and Disney Piglet mugs insult the prophet and Burger King chocolate ice-cream swirl designs insult the prophet, maybe it would just be easier to make a list of things that don’t insult him. Nonetheless, the Muslim Association wrote to the Ann Summers sex-shop chain, “We are asking you to have our Most Revered Prophet’s name ‘Mustafa’ and the afflicted word ‘shag’ removed.”
If I were a Muslim, I’d be “hurt” and “humiliated” that the revered prophet’s name is given not to latex blowup males but to so many real blowup males: The leader of the 9/11 plotters? Mohammed Atta. The British Muslim who self-detonated in a Tel Aviv bar? Asif Mohammed Hanif. The gunman who shot up the El Al counter at LAX? Heshamed Mohamed Hedayet. The former U.S. Army sergeant who masterminded the slaughter at the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania? Ali Mohamed. The murderer of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh? Mohammed Bouyeri. The notorious Sydney gang rapist? Mohammed Skaf. The Washington sniper? John Allen Muhammed. If I were a Muslim, I would be deeply offended that the prophet’s name is the preferred appellation of so many killers and suicide bombers on every corner of the earth.
But apparently that’s not as big a deal as Mustafa Shag. When Samuel Huntington formulated his famous “clash of civilizations” thesis, I’m sure he hoped it would play out as something nobler than shaggers vs. nutters.
…
… to use the Arabic proverb with which Robert Ferrigno opens his new novel, Prayers for the Assassin, set in an Islamic Republic of America, “A falling camel attracts many knives.” In Denmark and France and the Netherlands and Britain, Islam senses the camel is falling and this is no time to stop knifing him.
The issue is not “freedom of speech” or “the responsibilities of the press” or “sensitivity to certain cultures.” The issue, as it has been in all these loony tune controversies going back to the Salman Rushdie fatwa, is the point at which a free society musters the will to stand up to thugs. British Muslims march through the streets waving placards reading “BEHEAD THE ENEMIES OF ISLAM.” If they mean that, bring it on. As my columnar confrere John O’Sullivan argued, we might as well fight in the first ditch as the last.[/quote]
Peace people
We love you