George Galloway Savages SKY NEWS!
George Galloway rips Sky News another hole, after he’s done with the US Senate previously! I’m beginning to like this guy!
And before you start attacking me for highlighting this interview, ask yourself if Galloway is not saying the truth here first. This actually is the view that the vast majority of Arabs see this conflict, all you have to do to ascertain this fact is watch, listen or read any Arab/Muslim media.
dear anonimus
“The Jews got their homeland at the cost of the Palestinians.”
this could have been difrent had the Palestinians and arabs acted differenly on 1947-8. they did try to complite what hitler had begun and faild.
the Palestinians could try and bargin somthing, but every time they follow leaders how tell them that they will kill israel and get all, (or fail and get nothing) – till now they got nothing. Palestinians could try to make gaza a lovley place. thy chose to keep firing rockets at israel. i guess keep blaming others in your trubles become a habit.
===================
chances is that if you try embargo the west you will
a – fail (tried it in 1973 and faild, too many actors)
b- if you suceed , probebly you will get NATO on your door looting the OIL or CIA making a coop.
=====================
The amount of money that the arabs spends on arms could wipe out poverty and ignorance in the arab world
The amount of money that the israelies spends on arms could wipe out poverty and ignorance in the israel.
stop blaimg all the rest of the world (even if they are doing a lot of harm), and make empowment of your people by your people.
Galloway is vile. I appreciate that lots of you seem to like him but he remains a nasty little shit whose grovelling words to Saddam and Uday Hussein should never be forgotten. The man is a bully who arselicks to bigger tyrants. But hey, you’re welcome to him if you really want him. He looks great in a red catsuit too … (well, ok, not “great” … more like ghastly and “why oh why aren’t there burqahs for men?” -ish)
“”"Israel must at least amend its Zionist laws to remove the racial elements out of it, and equate treatments of all of its citizens regardless of ethnic and religious background, remove the wall, and start trusting the Palestinians and treat them as partners rather than enemies.”"”
Dear Mahmood,
Thank you very much for putting things into their prospective. what u said is already been adapted even by the Iranians! No one is against jews, but everyone who has a functioning cell in his/her brain is against the Zionists. They are totally different, in a way. Many jews do not agree with the zionist regime.
Israel is one of the worst racist countries, making it clear, the 7 million Palestinians will not return to their homeland, while they are trying to recruit as many zionists as they can, in fact, they are inflicting harm on them to increase the population of israel. That is why many jews believe that Israel has increased the hatred towards jews in general as well as anti-semitism.
Example;
“In 2003, a Zionist Agency appointed a former ambassador to Germany, Benjamin Navon, to lobby the German government for a change in their immigration rules.
(December 2004) it was learned that the German government has passed a law restricting immigration of Jews from the Former Soviet Union. Only those who are under the age of 45 and familiar with the German language will be allowed to immigrate.
The law drew praise from Zionist authorities. Michael Jankelowitz, a spokesman for a Zionist agency responsible for the immigration to Israel, said the changes were “positive”. He said that his organization had aggressively lobbied the German government for the new law. He added that the new regulations should increase the number of Jews from the former Soviet Union relocating in Israel.”"
I recommend browsing the following site;
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
Internationally, and as mentioned in the above site,
1. 1975 November 10: UN General Assembly passes Resolution 3379, in which Zionism is declared “racist”, with 72 votes to 35 (32 abstentions).
2. 1991 December 16: UN General Assembly revokes Resolution 3379, with 111 votes to 25 (13 abstentions).
The bottom line is;
a. anyone who is against racism should stand against what the Israels are doing.
b. Israel was created to be racist, and what they calim its “the jewish state” is nothing but absolute racism.
c. for the last 50 years, they have been in war after war, and with no peace, no sattelment and no “wonder land”.
d. the Holocaust, if it was true, does not give excuse to eradicate a whole population.
e. It is wrong to judge anything retrospectively, and according to the economists, the economical damage to the Zionist state is at least 250 million a day!
At the end, jews have been living Yamen, Oman and other arab countries, no one treated them badly at all. In fact, arabs used to trust them with their trasurely more than anyone else! until the 2nd world war.
to end; I leave you with a nice “Fatwa” from Rabbi Yehoshua Leib Diskin
“The rabbis of the generation should gather together and issue a writ of excommunication against the Zionists and eject them from the Jewish People, and make decrees against their bread and wine, and to forbid marrying with them, JUST LIKE OUR SAGES DID WITH THE SAMARITANS.”
at least I hope you do not marry their idiologies.
A very interesting read.
to
more than 9000 Lebanese must be released:
can you tell us pleaes were those Lebanese are? who they are?
“d. the Holocaust, if it was true… ya you are right it never happend and the world is flat and jews have tails.
nice talkign to you too.
Ibn;
Since you don’t live in the US, you might want to admit that your knowledge of it will be compromised. Your rants are so full of hysterical distortions, I’m not going to waste bandwidth refuting them.
And one more thing – try arguing in a way that generates light, not heat. You’ll find that folks will be more willing to listen to your side.
Sugar works better than spice
Sorry, that last comment was directed to Peacetaker, not Ibn.
Dror,
ibn said:
And THAT is why Israel must change its ways for the better. If it does not, it deserves total annihilation.
that doesn’t sound like hitler at all ibn,
“if you agree to what WE think is right, we will let you live, if not – total annihilation”
gee thanks.
..You will forgive me, if I find my motivation from your past Israeli leaders.
Anyway, that doctrine of unconditional surrender has been used before: USA-Japan, USA-Germany, Israel-Palestine in 1948. Controversey rages to this day over the morality and wisdom of the US dropping two nukes into Japan. Where is the controversey in Israel over whether or not their actions from 1917-1948 were sound, even though they have killed and displaced thousands. So this concept, must be pretty un-alien to your typical Israeli.
“there was never inherent animosity between Arabs and Jews on the scale as there is now, until after the Zionists entered the equation”
true,
Good! You agree.
jews and arabs did get a long before, but under arab regims. can it be that arabs can’t agree to the exsitnce of other state among them?
This is not a problem of having a state Mr Dror. The problem is where that state was decided to be founded. And the state of Israel was founded on occupied Arab land. (Occupied by the British). Hence, the animosity. Its as simple as that.
i could say the same about israel and palestine (the right wing is):
“”there was never inherent animosity between Arabs and Jews on the scale as there is now, until after the PLO entered the equation”
No, the animosity was always there. The means by which to do something about that animosity was provided by the PLO. Before that, there was no means for channeling that animosity.
the first right is the right to exist, which iran, HZ , hamas and you ibn don’t give to jews-israelis.
As Israel currently stands, it does not deserve a right to exist. What my solution is, is for Israel to renounce its Zionism, and to simply re-allign itself so that it is a nation for Jews, Arabs, etc. One country for all. That is my ideal. I could not care less if someone is a Jew, an Arab, or purple. Unfortunately, there are no signs of this happening. Israel was founded on what I have outlined to be 3 main and unforgivable crimes, and to this day, it has not even acknowledged one them, let alone done something about them.
I have written extensively on this subject Mr Dror, so if you would like, you may follow this link to my posts on the subject, located in the “Smart Move Sherlock” thread:
An Argument: Why Israel has no right to exist.
Good reading.
Johney,
Ibn, you’re totaly ignoring the fact that over half a million jews lived
in “palestine” in 1947 and they deserved a solution (since It was proven
that any of the 2 communities can’t live under the rule of the second).
You mis-interpret historical facts. Like I told Dror, it was not the idea of having a Jewish state that was as much a problem as where that Jewish state was to be located. The location was and is on occupied Arab land. No one, no culture and no nation in their right minds would ever accept this. Like Mr Dror, I invite you to take a closer look at my post earlier on, because I already addressed the point of how ownership does-not-equate to sovreignty. It is the same link as above:
The Argument.
(Dror, please use this same link because the one I posted above is wrong).
-Ibn
Mahmood,
Ooooo…the links do not work, because for some reason the link gets changed from this:
http://mahmood.tv/?p=2604#comment-29529
to this:
http://mahmood.tv/”http://mahmood.tv/?p=2604#comment-29529″
…for some reason HTML adds the http://mahmood.tv/'‘ Am I doing something wrong Mahmood, or is this an HTML issue? Thanks
Dror and Johney, the link you want is simply:
http://mahmood.tv/?p=2604#comment-29529
Thanks,
-Ibn
Aliandra,
Rather than calling everyone you disagree with a racist, (which seems to be your style around here), you might try picking up a history book.
Dont blame me if your outlook on this matches David Dukes’. If you subscribe to the separate and equal, then its racism. Its very straight forward. African tribes war with one another, sure. But the parrallel drawn here to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is way of course, as I showed before.
-Ibn
M,
While there are some who think you are the brightest bulb on the tree, I don’t find your comments support that logic. There doesn’t seem to be much difference between you and Steve; he wants to nuke Mecca and you want to annihilate Israel with the exception that Steve didn’t often make it personal.
Why come now my dear!
You see Israel as being this innocent little victimized country, who well, should be given the right to racially discriminate, and worry about its local Arab population, and its number of Jews, because…because…oh they are so cute and small!
I on the other hand, prefer to call attention to the fangs of this seemigly harmless critter, and also point out to you the scars we (or at least our grandparents and parents) suffered because of its fangs.
And quite frankly, I am worried about them biting again. But thanks for giving a damn.
He also had the balls to admit when he was wrong and apologize when he had overstepped the bounds of common courtsey; that was something I could respect him for.
You mean when he told that Saudi poster to his face flat out that he is no friend of America, and that he would like to eat popcorn while watching his Saudi cities burn on Fox News?
And you “respect” this? … Wow, ok..but…but that means you’re probably pro-Israeli…oh..wait…you are!
Occam’s razor strikes again! The simplest explanation is probably the right one.
-Ibn
Ibn,
The parallel is very applicable. I support a two state solution, one separate state for the Palestinians and one for the Israelis. If that makes me a racist, then all right, I’m a racist. Everyone else who wants two separate and equal states is a racist too.
Well blow me down and call me a racist then!
Me, I fully support a two state solution. You know why? Because I believe that Jews have a right to have a state – and a state that they can not only call their own, but that they can keep culturally their own.
The fear of demographic suicide is something that not only Israel, but the whole West needs to worry about. Importing large numbers of non-native folk, especially poor folk, tends to lead to a demographic problem. Look at France in particular – it has a growing Muslim population; by 2050 projections have that immigrant-descent Muslims will be 51% of the population of France. At that point, who is to say what is ‘France’ anymore? What will happen to French culture? Will it become Frankistan? Will the next French revolution overthrow ‘Liberte, Equalite, Fraternite’ with Shari’a? That is not an unfounded fear – that’s exactly how Persia became Islamic – demographic suicide.
I hate to sound ‘racist’ (but since I already am, why not go all out!) But what would happen to Israel if they simply allowed the Palestinians back? Would Israel remain Israel? Could the new Israeli populace respect the democratic tradition? Would they import their own (already corrupt) traditions from the PA? Would newly arrived Arabs be able to live side by side with Jews after decades of hate? How quickly would the Knesset be subjugated to Shari’a a la Hamas? How soon until Jews are rounded up and sent to the ovens again?
Some wonder why Israel won’t “Just Negotiate”.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html
Ibn,
Cute stuff; made me smile. Not your usual control show.
“The simplest explanation is probably the right one.”
Well, you know I was thinking that the other day when someone thought you called them a Nazi, but then I thought perhaps the simplest explaination is probably the wrong one. Go figure; I was right all along!
In any case, it doesn’t really matter if I am a supporter of Israel or Palestine or Sweden. The only thing that matters is that your position and solution on the matter is irrelevant in the big scheme of things and does nothing to resolve the conflict.
Oh, and add me to the racist list Aliandra.
M,
In any case, it doesn’t really matter if I am a supporter of Israel or Palestine or Sweden. The only thing that matters is that your position and solution on the matter is irrelevant in the big scheme of things and does nothing to resolve the conflict.
I have asked two Israeli posters to date, to acknowledge Crimes 1, 2 and 3, after much debate and discussions on the previous threads. Because it is only when we acknowledge wrong-doing, can we move on, and work towards making sure such things never hapen again, and rectify our ways.
I have had moderate success in this, but I am an optimist and I believe those acknowledgements can be sought from them.
You however, feel content to sit there and claim I called someone (batzi) a Nazi, even though even she has since agreed with me that that was not my intention at all.
So once you get over it, I invite you to place some more cards into your decaying deck, and perhaps add to those discussions. You can start by looking up the word “argument” and as excercise one of homework 1, you can actually try to make one here.
——————————————
Aliandra,
Everyone else who wants two separate and equal states is a racist too.
Strawman.
Your contention that peoples’ of different races cannot inherently get along by virtue of their races, is racist.
But that is very different from saying that I support a two-state solution, and since it is divided among racial lines, so that makes me racist. It is divided over opinions in the dispute of territory, not ethnicity. Which is why I was saying from the get go, that you have made a flawed parallel.
You fail to see that the underlying reason for this conflict is territory, and not someone’s ethnicity. It was the Zionists however who married territorial ambitions, to their blood/religion. The main quarell is not over the latter, (ethnicity), but over the former (territorial ambitions). The problem, is that the Zionists’ territorial ambitions stepped on the toes of Arabs, on occupied Arab land.
Ethan
Because I believe that Jews have a right to have a state – and a state that they can not only call their own, but that they can keep culturally their own.
Thats fine! But dont step on my toes doing it. Unfortunately, the Zionists ala the Israeli state have done it, and continue to do it.
The fear of demographic suicide is something that not only Israel, but the whole West needs to worry about.
Im not going to get into this too much, although I am very tempted to. Needless to say however, this attitude goes against an ideal that I have for the future of humanity, where it is irrelevant what ones ethnicity and identity are, and we judge people by their character, than their cultural heritage and race, thank you Martin Luther King. You are putting forward a separatist doctrine that is as filthy as those advocated by racist groups around the world.
Some food for thought for you then is why shouldnt every culture, tribe, and ethnicity on the entire planet be given an alloted piece of land on which to call home?
This is going backwards – going backwards towards tribalism and separation based on the most irrelevant quantities of humans. One thing I particularly like and admire about the US is that is was probably the first country where people of many many diverse ethnicities, identities and cultures can co-exist and are equal under the law. The USA under your idea of separating people based on their cultural backgrounds would be the first to fissure – it would be un-American. As America’s motto goes:
E pluribus unum: From the many, one.
And that is an ideal worth fighting for. That all of us – all human beings irregardless of our culture and faiths and ethnicities, can come together and live together because those quantities mentioned above are artificial barriers we place on ourselves – we are all human beings, and deserve proper individual rights and protections.
Not so Israel. Or any other country that gets founded on your separate-but-equal nonsense. Thats going backwards. Humanity arose from a family unit, into tribes, into clans, into city-states, and into countries, at each step incorporating varying members of the former step, precisely because at every step of the way, they realised that they werent that different from members of the other family, or of the other tribe, or of the other clan, or of the other city, and opted for co-existance. Because its possible. Because we are humans.
Not so Israel. It has taken two step backwards. It is a country not founded on the inclusion of others – it is one founded on the exclusion of others. It has reverted back into the tribal stage – a country for the diffused tribe of the Jews. Backwards, not forwards, Ethan. This is going backwards. And so is your “solution” to the problem: “Lets just all fall back into our tribes and cultures and have a piece of land for every single one of us!” Lets move forward Ethan, not backwards.
-Ibn
A noble sentiment. However…
We are pitted in a terrible time, when the forces that would stand against Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness are armed, and those that would defend those rights are slothful.
For what is the greater sin? Refusing to invite those who do not support the ideals of liberal democracy, or seek to invert them; or to believe in multiculturalism uber alles?
Surely all men are created equal, but not all ideas or cultures are equal.
For the forces of despotism – Islamic Fascism, Communism, Totalitarianism – destroy mankind’s will to live. Through them, Mankind is a slave to other men, physically cowed, and mentally subdued. Reason and rationality fall to ash before the triumphalism of the despot and his symbols.
Is a mindless slave equal to that of a man? Are they not both men?
They were born equal – but they have shown to be unequal in life. For as one will parade pictures of their slaveholders and chieftains as if they were demigods sent from on high to right their wrongs, the other bows to no earthly-revealed deity. It is the duty of the slave to usurp the slavemaster. To free their mind, given by divine providence, from the ossified shackles of man’s Gods, for no words of man are the words of God.
When hatred spreads in the hearts of men, it can rot the soul until only the base animal insticts are left. The despot teaches men to hate. The Despot controls the minds of men, twisting them to his vile will. Subverting man’s humanity, and leaving behind nothing but the wish for death. By this, the despot is a demigod, for he has usurped God’s gift of reason.
Should not men pull away from these slaves of tyrant death, and seek to shatter the shackles that bind his slaves?
Or should man embrace death’s slaves, heedless that the shackles will one day kill them both?
No man should take Faust’s bargain and accept those who wish his death into his own house.
In the end, we are all humans. Nothing human is alien to me. If you are right, I shall do what you do. But if you are wrong, I shall be not afraid to illuminate you. Reason dictates that ideas must be free to grow and be challenged. Co-existance dictates that ideas must be free to grow and be challenged. Bad ideas will wither and die. Good ideas will flourish, and ‘eternal truth’ will be relegated to the dustbin.
Only when the despots loosen their chains, and their slaves open their eyes to see past their unreasonable hatred can we live as one. But if
is unquestioned truth, no human shall never see peace.
Ibn,
“I have asked two Israeli posters to date, to acknowledge Crimes 1, 2 and 3,…………… but I am an optimist and I believe those acknowledgements can be sought from them.”
You truly must be the elusive eternal optimist.
“So once you get over it, I invite you to place some more cards………
There goes that control crap again. Listen, I have no reason or motivation to present any arguments to you. I am not here for your purposes, but rather my own. Don’t need your approval or feel the need to justify myself. If everyone once in a while I have something to say, then I will.
C’mon guys,, why does everyone keep on hiding the truth.. basically this whole fight is never gonna stop.. u ask y,, ill tell u:
Well the jews believe that this land is theres.. and we muslims beleive that this land is ours.. we are never gonna agree.. and no UN or peacekeepers or whatever are gonna help us live side by side.. this has been going on ever since humans existed (fight for land).. we are basically gonna fight till we get our land back, and then you guys are simply gonna fight back till you get your land back.
You guys will call us terrorists and we will also call you terrorists.. it doesnt really matter what other people think ..
y guys are probably gonna call me a backward minded person,, and that since we are in the 21st century we can fix this diplomatically,, but u know that this will never work..
to kamal
truth is fight for land is very old.
but its also true that fights wich were very long ended;
- by victory of some side and the other side move to anther place or mingeld in other countries.
- by pecae, somtimes leading to places no one had thought possible (see germany and franch for example)
i think that the fight is for political power and culture, not for land. people how are after a fight can always find a reason “you, looking at my girlfrind? why you want her? what NO? you say im a lair? i’ll show you”
ibn say for example that its beacouse israel is racist , not becouse fo land he hate it. other have diffrent reasons, like “love for the land” (which for many of them they don’t know) or longing for peacefull haven (well since 1948 paletineins alone got about * 100 bigger , so not alot of room or water or jobs for all the palestines that want to go back)
things are never solved “diplomatically”. its a mirage. diplomatically is anther name for non violent force (like ecnomic force) and threat to use force to solve problems in sted of violece. but those “weak” forces are what kept israel strong and the arab world weak. israel “weakneces” like democary and invest in education and in economy insted of just geting more wepons is what made it be a strong state.
and one more thing, kamal
if people don’t want peace they don’t go to school but to war. after that they win or change thier tasts (lukely people can change), or both.
what about you? do you want peace ?
ibn , learn the facts before you make thories:
unconditional surrender and total annihilation are 2 diifrent things.
USA-Japan, USA-Germany, Israel-Palestine in 1948. – never was such a wars:
it was WW2 (in which USA enterd only in 1941!) and most of it was russia -germany.
and israel- arab countries (mostly egept , jorden and syria) in 1948. and this war ended in seace fire not in unconditional surrender or total annihilation.
the fact that you want to say that israel is not diffrenc then japan or germany that coused the lost of lives of about 40 million pepole, including 6 million jews says alot about your claims. why stop there ? israel is satan him self , no less.
ibn
about seed – too many people in arab and muslim waord are doing only
planting of seed of hate,
they hate jews, they hate israleis, they hate zionizem, they hate progress, they hate the hipoctic west, they hate USA.
all of this hate is not withot base. you don’t hate somone for nothing. and israel, USA and the Weast are not saints.
but spending all your time doing nothing but hate, serve you poorly,
some of them hate so much , it leave them little time to anything else. what did arab world acchived in the last 100 years? how did he managed to helphimself and others?
talking about sowing the seeds? look at yourselft beforte you jump at your nagibor.
ibn,
your argument is as follow:
some group of pepole G, did somthing wrong W, according to some set of values V, and there for they diserve : punisment P
in your case
G = zionists
W = racisem
V = west values
P = total annihilation
what i think is that your real goal is just plain old “total annihilation for all the jews”, and i’ll be gald if you show me i was wrong. your againt israel beacouse of political reasons (creed for power?) not beacouse of moral (humanitarian ) reason
why?
beacouse many countries are racist and built on racisem, and killed or drive away those people that lived there berfore. yet you dont call for their “total annihilation”
beacouse imgration lows that prevent other to enter your state is somting coomon in every state, and yet they are not reason for war.
beacouse most of islam extrems reject west values and they are themsef racisit (to the bone) and yet not you and not israleis call for their “total annihilation”
israel can beacome one day a place where all people , not diffrent what color they are can share equal rights. in many aspects it is alrteday so , to the extent that arab citizens don’t want to belong to other states even (wihtount leaving their homes).
but to remove susption and hate we don’t need people like you that say:
“do it or ill kill you all”. thats only leading to “ya? we will kill you fierst”.
hate and fear feed each other. by adopting “total annihilation” you acchive nothing (ecexpt maybe then promoting a WW3 which from propbaly no one will come out)
Ibn writes:
Before the 20th century, most of the world was under the control of one empire or another as colonies. Most of the countries of the world today were created during the 20th century as part of the process of decolonization. In this process, the former empires were broken down and borders drawn along former colonial administrative divisions and… guess what? racial and secratarian lines. The process often was accopanied by violence between the involved parties, sometimes included forced migrations and virtually no one is quite satisfied with the result. The primary reason was that people of different ethnicity were often mixed or aggregated into non-contiguous areas, making it difficult to draw the borders. Nevertheless, in the 20th century we have become accustomed to many new names for countries that came into existence in those former colonized territories.
The territory of Palestine was just another colony of the Ottoman empire. The decolonization process also included a short period of British occupation. But other than that, what’s so different about the case of Israel from any other decolonized territory in the world?
At the time of decoloniztion some of the ethnically jewish had been in continuous residence since ancient times and some were more recent arrivals. Some of the ethnically arab had been in continuous residence since ancient times and some were also more recent arrivals (the economic development created by the jewish immigration and the influx of capital created many jobs and caused a significant migration from neighboring territories). If you accept that one of these ethnic groups has the right to establish itself as a sovereign state in the territory you must surely accept the right of the other.
I do not accept your claim that there was some kind of fundamental “crime” in the establishment of the state of Israel. What immediately followed was self defence against a series of attempts by neighboring countries to destroy the country of Israel, some of which nearly succeeded.
If there was a crime it was the crime of hubris, and that came a few decades later. Eventually Israel became powerful enough to deter neighboring countries from additional attacks. At that time Israel should have used this position to reach a settlement with the Palestinians. Unfortunately, the long years of wars have created a militaristic culture in Israel. It was intoxicated by victory. Some started to stare greedly at the territories occupied in these wars rather than seeing them as part of a future settlement with the Palestinians.
So I don’t think Israel was “born in sin”. It sure made big mistakes and committed some very questionable actions since then. But the Palestinians and some of Israel’s neighbors haven’t been exactly saints, either.
Would you rather be part of the problem or part of the solution? Do you truly believe that villification of Israel (which is quite distinct from criticism) is part of the solution?
You probably get some kind of emotional satisfaction from seeing Hizballah give the IDF much more of a beating than they expected. But do you truly believe Hizballah is the champion of the Palestinians? Of Lebanon? It is the agent of a foreign country which is about as meddlesome in the middle east as the US has been in south america, for example. Just like the US would not accept any communist regimes in its back yard Iran does not accept any non-Islamist regimes in the area. Just like the US destabilized regimes and arranged revolutions Iran is doing the same. What makes me truly furious is that it is using Israel to do it and that my stupid government has walked very willingly into this trap.
Oren, I don’t agree 100% with all you say but I think the implication of your question “But do you truly believe Hizballah is the champion of the Palestinians? Of Lebanon?” is spot on. They are just filling a vacuum.
The problem is that there is no viable united Arab front (even amongst half a dozen countries) – and there never will be. So various organisaitons at various times come to the fore, currently it is Hizbollah. Most of the Gulf Arabs I have spoken with depsise Hizbollah, partly due to the fact that Hizbollah is Shi’ite but also partly due to the fact that they are partially responsible for the current destruction of Lebanon.
this guy relaxes me
Johnster,
What the Palestinians really need is a leadership that will:
A. Take the Palestinian needs as its #1 priority
and
B. Be acceptable by the Palestinian
The problem is that the Palestinians have learned from 10 years of Arafat that the way to achieve B is to ignore A.
I’m not sure that having a strong supporting league of Arab nations is indeed an asset, and not something that prevents a real solution from being accepted (and, yes, at least in some cases, the same could be said for Israel and the US). I actually believe that if the Palestinian start behaving like a state, which means that laws are being enforced, money is being spend on civil infrastructure and violence (i.e. – weapons) is being a monopoly of the Palestinian authority, there is no reason that they will not be able to actually become one within five years (Hamas notwithstanding).
Shachar
M,
You truly must be the elusive eternal optimist.
The Middle East demands no less.
There goes that control crap again. Listen, I have no reason or motivation to present any arguments to you. I am not here for your purposes, but rather my own. Don’t need your approval or feel the need to justify myself. If everyone once in a while I have something to say, then I will.
Really? Ohh ok! Well then every once in a while I will respond to your incoherence if I like. Isnt this great! You get to post something with no backbone, and I get to call you out on it! We’re just one big happy family!
—————————————–
Ethan,
I agree with your…. tirade…. but I do not see the relevance of it here. Freedom rocks. Facism sucks. We get it. You are preaching to the choir. I do not think we have our token Islamist on this board. Half a dozen Zionists maybe.
The one difference is that I place Zionism as closer to the latter (Facism)than the former (Freedom). It has done a great job proving itself to belong to that end of the spectrum both in theory (pre-48) and in practice (post-48).
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Dror,
unconditional surrender and total annihilation are 2 diifrent things.
The treat of total annihilation can loom over your head before you decide to submit to unconditional surrender.
some of them hate so much , it leave them little time to anything else. what did arab world acchived in the last 100 years? how did he managed to helphimself and others?
I actually agree with your point here. Currently, there is no Arab country that is of real threat to Israel. It is my position that Arab countries need to undergo MASSIVE reforms and changes, before they are adept at defending themselves, from Israel, or other foreign meddlers and/or occupiers. My position is that the lack of individual freedoms in our countries has massively contributed to our downfall in many regards: Culture, music, art, science, progress, etc, and also of course, defence. Tactically, I think the Arabs must at this point forget about Israel, and let it be, and focus on themselves. Once they are strong enough and free enough to defend themselves, can they start talking again, and if need be, use force to defend their interests.
what i think is that your real goal is just plain old “total annihilation for all the jews”, and i’ll be gald if you show me i was wrong.
Please do not mis-quote me. I have never called for the “annihilation of the Jews”. I have absolutely nothing against the Jews, and I myself have plenty of Jewish friends. So be carefull what you say.
I have called for the annihilation of Israel. That means, its government, and its Zionist ideology. That is what needs to be annihilated, should the Israelis themselves fail to remove Zionism. I would love to see an Israel that is a true liberal democracy, that doesnt pester itself over percentages of non-Jews vs Jews, and owns up to the crimes 1,2 and 3 that is has commited on non-Jews in the past, should it still be possible. I would welcome such a change with all my heart. This is an ideal for humanity – where our cultures and ethnicities are reduced to exotic curiosities – and not where my Arab heritage is considered a threat to the Israeli state. Like I have said before, we are all humans.
And like I said before, should Israel fail in changing itself like this for the better of humanity, and even its citizens…should Israel fail in removing this racist ideology that governs it, then yes, it deserves to be annihilated.
What can you, as an Israeli do? If I was an Israeli, I would start a lobby group of sorts. I would petition my government – maybe even boycott voting altogether unless the party was non-Zionist. I would create a charter, that laid out how Israel can own up to crimes 1, 2 and 3, and how Zionism can be dismantled from the inside. This is what I would do. And on public forums such as this, I would publicise my opinion that Israel is guilty of crimes 1, 2 and 3, and that I am working diligently to rectify its ways. This might sound like all words. But it makes a big difference to the minds of people you would consider your enemies. The battle Dror, starts in peoples’ minds.
but to remove susption and hate we don’t need people like you that say:
“do it or ill kill you all”. thats only leading to “ya? we will kill you fierst”.
Question Dror: Just what exactly do you want me to “love” about Israel? Hmm? What great quality does Israel have or stand for or what action has Israel undertaken, that should make me, an Arab, “love” it?
You say that I hate. I say yes, and I hate for a reason. Instead of focusing on the reason, you keep focusing on the emotion that has arisen because of that reason. You are focusing on the symptom, and not the root cause. You are “fixing” my broken leg by giving me painkillers.
-Ibn
good news :
Breakthrough in talks over cease-fire resolution; Security Council expected to convene Friday
hurra hope this is true and that this is the light in the end of the tunnel
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/749019.html
Ibn
It would be nice if you could direct more of that reformist energy to middle-eastern governments instead of blasting it all at Israel. Charity begins at home, you know.
ibn
being of short time i might say you have maybe a good couse done by wrong methods.
i didn’t read yet what is crime 1,2,3 of youres , sorry for that.
many israelis are for reforms , peace, eqal rights for arabs citizens, and there are evne jews and almos all arabs parteis that call for “country for all citiznes”‘ and in the future – one state for jews and arbas in israel.
what stands in the way of such dreams?
well its certnely not helping that people in hamas , HZ, Iran and so on call on killing all of the jews/ isralies/ israel state etc (they are not so consistic about it)
what a strage thing is that people in israel don’t just say “gee lets remove the arnmy/ get the keys of tanks and paints to arabs naigbors.”
personaly i belive that before the vision you tlaked about , thare must be a pahse where 2 nations have 2 states so people can leak up the wonds. peace and coporation take time. unlike war and hate wich are swift.
you can hate israel , people and all kind of this. but i don’t think you are doing your couse any good by this, its better to reject the evil thing themselves and not thier allged promoters.
Oren,
Thank you for you response: I do not want to repeat myself, so I wanted to ask you if you had a chance to look at my previous post on the subject from: http://mahmood.tv/?p=2604#comment-29529
If you havent I would encourage you to do so, since it will give you greater insight into my position, and might answer some questions that come up FYI. I will post a response to this anyway:
First, you are correct in your assessment of the state of the world in the 20th century. That said however,
But other than that, what’s so different about the case of Israel from any other decolonized territory in the world?
The difference Mr Oren, is that unlike other territories in the world the British occupied, Israel is probably one of the very few where total foreingers were imported en masse (European Jews), and then allowed to create their own state. That is the difference. To further clarify this point:
British occupy a land.
British find sect A, and sect B.
British leave, making state for both sect A+B. (A variety of African nations would fall into this).
Now contrast this with Israel’s case:
British occupy a land.
British find sect A.
Due to grievances of a foreign sect B, British allow mass immigration of foreign sect B into occupied land.
Sect B asks British to promise them to create land for only sect B in land where sect A was found.
Therefore, the de-colonization process that the majority of the world went through, is very dis-similar to the one that occured in Palestine, of 1948. Another point that you must remember, is that creating an Arab state, does not disclude Jews. But creating a Jewish state, would nessecarily disclude Arabs. The difference is because being an “Arab” is a higher state than being a “Jew”. Jew refers to belonging to a particular religion/ethnicity. An Arab refers more to a cultural affiliation, than any religious or ethnic.
The reason I bring this up is because the immigrant Zionists in Palestine wasted no time in 1917 is asking the British to promise them a land for them in occupied Palestine. That right there is the beginning of the exclusivity. The Arabs on the other hand, prior to Balfour at least, had no qualms with someone’s ethnicity and/or religious affiliation. To attest to this evidence, I cite the myriad ethnic and religous groups that exist in the Arab world today:
1) Circassians
2) Armenians
3) Druze
4) Berbers
etc etc. The Circassians and for example immigrated into the Arab middle east at some time, and settled in. Today, they are fully fledged Arabs, with their distinct cultural norms, practices, and funny mannerisms. But ask any one of them, and they will say, “We are Arab.” So there is no reason to suspect that the incoming Jews prior to 1917 and after would have been rejected based on their ethnicities. More likely, they would have followed their fates like the Circassians and Armenians who came before them and assimilated, and become our Arab brethren just like the rest of us.
Alas, fate would not have it this way. It was the Zionists, who no less demanded an exclusive domain for themselves and themselves only, Mr Oren. And to damn them further, not only was this on Arab land, but on already occupied Arab land no less. And when the Arabs rejected such an abomination and fought to protect this disaster after they declared independance, the Israelis unfortunately won.
That, my friend, is your original sin.
-Ibn
Ibn,
As you Insulted me, I did not want to converse with you again, but I will only say these things, to shut you up once and for all.
That “outside mob” you referred to (British/French/UN) were the same that
founded Lebanon, Iraq, Syria and Jordan. All of these states did not exist
before that. If you say one isn’t good because a “outside mob” founded it,
what makes the others good?
You say islamic rule? what about lebanon, made by the french for
Christians? what about Syria ruled by alawites, and being a secular state?
You say a “arabic rule” ? what makes a alawite (or a christian president)
more a arabic then a iraqi jew , a mugreb Jew or a jerusalemite Jew?
The comparison to the US is not correct, because no state existed in
palenstine prior to Israel. It was only a barren part of the Ottoman empire
(not even a arabic empire, if you want to be exact). if you want to compare
it to the US, compare it to the early times, when there were french
terratories aside spanish terratories, english terratories, Indian terratories
and Holandish terratories. Hence no crime 1 – you’re just tring to slip your
anti-jews views under a so-seemed inteligent jacket.
“massacred some Arab villages and deported others” – that’s true, there
were some cases that that happened. But most of the cases were not like
that – there are recorded events, in which the IDF and private people
BEGGED arabs not to flee, but they were not listened to. Anyways, if
according to you the Zionists massecured all the palestinians, how come
there are arab-israelis that live in Israel within the 1948 borders and hold
Israeli passports like every jew (almost a million of them)?
Moreover -I’m not justificing massacures and deports. They were a
mistake. But, I wonder why
you don’t mention the massacures and mass deportations that arabs did
to jews in arab countries before and after 1948 (check Marroco and Iraq.
after that check algeria and yemen) – I have a suspicion that when arabs
do it, you approve. Only when non-jews do it (at a much smaller extent),
then its not OK. Hence no crime 2.
As for crime 3, I do not agree with you that Israel has racist rules or
institutes. As for a constitution – let me tell you that israel has no
constitution yet. She has a few BASE RULES which in the future will be the
basis for a constitution. It nice blaming “the rules” based on propganda. If
you don’t know the rules and can’t bring specific stuff, don’t boast of your
knowledge.
seriously this is the best post you ever posted….
Shame you have to upset all of your old (like yourself) jewish fans.
- a young arab.
ibn
The difference Mr Oren, is that unlike other territories in the world the British occupied, Israel is probably one of the very few where total foreingers were imported en masse (European Jews), and then allowed to create their own state. That is the difference
Eh? What about the settlement of the Americas and South Africa? Not a few countries there, but a lot. Israel is not unusual in the least.
Johney,
As you Insulted me, I did not want to converse with you again, but I will only say these things, to shut you up once and for all.
… I do not recall insulting you in any way. I have only had two interactions with you. Where have I insulted you? Please point it out.
Anon,
Eh? What about the settlement of the Americas and South Africa? Not a few countries there, but a lot. Israel is not unusual in the least.
The those settlements were instances of great moral courage and actions correct? You will have to agree with me, that today, we look down on those events, and see them as black marks on humanity’s history. The American treatment of the Indians, the British/Dutch treatment of blacks in South Africa, etc. Do we not? In both cases, people were imported an masse. In both cases, the actions were atrocious for the indigenous. And in both cases, they rectified their errors, which started with acknowledgement of the wrongs.
Israel has not.
———————————————
Oren,
I would like to add a historical document as further evidence for my position which I stated in my last post to you: This was written by King Abdullah – King Hussein’s grandfather, back in 1947. I wish for this to complement my post earlier. Please have a look see:
http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/kabd_eng.html
-Ibn
Just seen this. Fantastic by Galloway. Don’t always like the guy but all the Murdoch media’s have been outrageously biased towards Israel. The Dirty Digger himself has offered Israel his ‘unqualified support’ (on the grounds that even if it wasn’t a good idea to create the country now we’re stuck with it it has to be supported).
Galloway is a stupid tool and a crook.
Another clip (aljazeera) of Mr. Galloway saying that the Arab Rulers Are in Bed, Fornicating with Foreign Occupiers:)
Memritv.org clip number 1228
http://www.memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S6#
enjoy this too:)
Good to see someone tell it like it is. thankfully not many people outside Israel and the US actually believe any of the crap on Sky and Fox news.
ibn
Jews are not Arabs and while many jews have Arab culture (about 50% are from arab countries) they have a different point of view on life. is it a sin?
Jews where here 4000 years ago. not needing Arab/brithish approval for being authentic.
Arabs also occupied the land form Babylonian and sumer for example. so now we will demolish all Arabs to give back the land to those people?
i think your “raciest” argument is just an excuse to “kill all those Jews (in Israel)”. the mufti was a friend of Hitler and Mussolini – he didn’t object to racism, and if racism is a seen for which nations are bound to “annihilation”
then Arab states can have it fare share in it.
”
Arabs/ Muslims as minority in Israel enjoys much more freedom and rights then Arabs /Muslims majority in Arab states ! before talking about human rights (which should be better and could be if HZ and Hamas and Iran wouldn’t try to kill Israel all the time), why not try to apply some of your high moral claims on Iran. Syria Iraq and other Arab/ Muslims states?
“The treat of total annihilation can loom over your head before you decide to submit to unconditional surrender.”
Sentences like that can run in both ways, and treat of total annihilation only encourage hate and racism.
“Question Dror: Just what exactly do you want me to “love” about Israel? Hmm? ”
Question Ibn: Just what exactly do you want me to “love” about arabs? Hmm? What great quality does arabs have or stand for or what action has arabs undertaken, that should make me, an jew, “love” it?
- yet I don’t hate Arabs or Islam , despite people like you that try to find reasons to hate.
“You say that I hate. I say yes, and I hate for a reason. Instead of focusing on the reason, you keep focusing on the emotion that has arisen because of that reason.”
Emotion are powerful thing, people don’t act out of reason but out of emotions. That’s a good reason to talk about them.
“You are focusing on the symptom, and not the root cause. You are “fixing” my broken leg by giving me painkillers.”
We are disputed about the root cause. I don’t think your reason is the reason that is the “root”.
A few Quotes for the misguided Jews/Israeli’s who think that the Arabs drove them out of their lands. Us Arabs are guilty alright. We are guilty of playing right into the zionist hands. They manupluated the whole thing fabricated a whole religious war (Jews vs Muslims) Just for there own gain. I have a left a link should you wish to further read. Please read below:
” I write this article for the same reason I wrote my book: to tell the american people, and especially American Jews, that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave,
Jews killed Jews; and that, to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands,
Jews on numerous occasions rejected genuine peace initiatives
from their Arab neighbors. I write about what the first prime minister of Israel called “cruel Zionism. I write about it because I was part of it.”
Other quotes within the same article:
“In attempts to portray the Iraqis as anti-American and to terrorize the Jews, the Zionists planted bombs in the U.S. Information Service library and in synagogues. Soon leaflets began to appear urging Jews to flee to Israel. . . .”
http://www.inminds.co.uk/jews-of-iraq.html
I’m not sure if people said it here already: George lies.
There are no “thousands” of Lebanese held in Israel, as he says more then once during the interview.
There are three Lebanese convicted terrorists (one of them, Samir Kuntar, killed a little girl with his gun in Nahariya, in northern Israel, in 1979) and 23 Palestinians with Lebanese passports, most of them convicted for criminal offences (drugs etc.).
Ibn,
On August 9th, 11:02 p.m., you write in response to Aliandra:
“You fail to see that the underlying reason for this conflict is territory, and not someone’s ethnicity. It was the Zionists however who married territorial ambitions, to their blood/religion. The main quarell is not over the latter, (ethnicity), but over the former (territorial ambitions). The problem, is that the Zionists’ territorial ambitions stepped on the toes of Arabs, on occupied Arab land.”
That is news!
Considering that you tried to extract out of me such an admission
(unsuccessfully, I might add as you to express a belief that such acknowledgement can be sought”from the two posters,” (Shachar and myself) I believe I am one of them…)
According to you Crime # 2 which the Zionist committed at the onset of the present conflict is when in 1948, they uprooted many Arabs out fo their homes because they were “the wrong race,” or ethnicity.
Refuting that claim on my part cost others and me much aggrevation….
Now you say that the conflict is territorial, not ethnic?
Am I missing something here? Perplexedly yours.
Batzi
P.S. if you read my latest post on “33 Days” you will realize that I, too, am in favour of a two states solution. What does it make me then?
P.S
I think it is a well known fact that George Gallawy is an MP for East London where the majority of the residents are Muslims. Why should he be any different from any other politician who wants to keep his constituants happy?
Also, to all of you bashing Fox News. I have recently had an opportunity to watch it.
Are you people having a problem with a TV station that in addition to showing the devastation and pain of the Lebanese civilian population is also acknowledging Israeli civilians as victims, a station that presents the other side of an issue as well? I must admit that it was heartwarming to see us Israelis presented as human beings showing the pain that this war has inflicted upon innocent Israeli civilians who were deliberately targeted. Thank you Fox News!
Batzi