10 % ? 1 %

Now apply that to 1.2 BILLION muslims.

Not such a tiny minority any more, eh ?

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I said nothing about converting. You seem to have the perversion about conversion.

And I said nothing on condoning people who try to bring back that aspect of Mohammed’s life from 1400 years ago. Go and read my Post#9 please.

We are living today … not ancient times and muslims need to find a way to deal with it without some of the ancient rheteric that is being used by many idiots!

Learn to distinguish between “those idiots” and “Muslims” please. There are 1.2 billion Muslims. There are a handfull of idiots. Like I said before, Muslims do not conspire behind your backs to kill the infidel.

Distinguish.
Distinguish.
Distinguish.

Otherwise you fall in the same category as “those idiots” we are fighting against.

-Ibn

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I said nothing about converting. You seem to have the perversion about conversion.

But since “you” brought it up there is plenty of “muslim” documentation about that too and it’s not what in “today’s” world would be considered peaceful/tolerant.

And that is what I think Mahmood is trying to say in this thread. We are living today … not ancient times and muslims need to find a way to deal with it without some of the ancient rheteric that is being used by many idiots!

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Thank you so much for the rearing rendition of the “SO WHAT” defense of “Muslim” documentation of the founder of Islam’s killing people that he disagreed with.

The pleasure is all mine Jack.

It is apparent that many many muslims worldwide “TODAY” are longing for those good old days which from your statement you have no problem with.

Ahh yes, those pesky mooooslims! When will they learn! If only they accepted that Mohammed used violence against some opponents, maybe they could convert en masse to something less violent like Judai.. oh never mind.. hahaha!

-Ibn

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The violence and brutality has more to do with those times, than the religion.

It is apparent that many many muslims worldwide “TODAY” are longing for those good old days which from your statement you have no problem with.

Let’s start with that “SO WHAT”!

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Personally, I find the whole thing beyond comprehension. How can Muslims read the ahadith and biographies of their prophet and not feel uneasy?

The same way Jews can read the Torah that is rife with violence and tribal justice and not feel uneasy? Or maybe the same way people in general can read about Roman conquests, genocide and brutality, yet somehow celebrate it via all those documentaries on the discovery channel? Just the other day after watching Conan O’Brien I switched channels and came across a program touting “The great Crusaders”, on ABC. (ABC had their disclaimer of course). Are Christians comfortable with that?

Thats the short answer. The long answer is that as with many others before you who have made similar charges, (I am starting to notice a pattern here), your mistake is dropping the context of the time, i.e, you would be hard pressed to find any empire, religion or ideology of that era that was not violent or brutal.

The violence and brutality has more to do with those times, than the religion. Of course one can always ignore this and state that Islam is just a violent religion. Well. Yeah. I bet it was. But so what? Who wasnt?

Today your average Arab Muslim isnt going to wait on your driveway with a kitchen knife because you might have written a scathing poem about him. Most of us have day jobs. By the same token, most of us arent going to just drop everything one morning, drive to a church, get butt naked and baptized in a pool just because it has just been brought to our attention that Muhammed killed a woman who wrote a poem about him.

Sadly, it seems that the only Muslims that are honest about Islam are the so-called radicals.

Really? Well ill be sure to inform my deluded grandmother of that! Ill tell her: “Hey grandma! This person named John Kactuz says you arent a true Muslim because you havent killed your infidel neighbours yet!” haha

Ill tell you what John, if my grandma and I make a video of us beheading a teddy-bear while shouting “Allahu Akbar” at the top of our lungs, will you at that point kindly bestow the title of “Muslim” on my grandma? Please? Pretty please? Pretty please with a cherry on top? hahaha

You’re a funny man John! Thanks for giving me and my grandma a good chuckle!

-Ibn

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Let us start with Asma bint Marwan, a mother killed while nuring her baby, as narrated in Ibn Ishaq’s “Sirat Rasul Allah” – the oldest and primary biography of Muhammad.

Then there are also Abd Abbah Ibn Hilal Ibn Khatal al-Adrami, Abd Allah Ibn Sa`d Ibn Abi Sarh, Abdullah bin Ubai bin Salul al-Aufi, Abu Afak, Al-Huwayrith Ibn Nuqaydh, Al-Nadr bin al-Harith, Al-Yusayr b. Rizam and Khalid b. Sufyan, Amr b. Jihash, Fartana, Habbar Ibn al-Aswad, Hind Bint Utbah, Ibn Sunayna, Ikrimah Ibn Abi Jahl, Ka`b bin al-Ashraf, Kinana al-Rabi (M. built a fire on his chest), Miqyas Ibn Sababah al-Laythi, Qaribah, Sallam Ibn Abu’l-Huqayq (Abu Rafi), Sarah the mawlat of Amr Ibn Hashim, Umaiya bin Khalaf Abi Safwan, Uqba bin Abu Muayt, as well as other unnamed individuals killed for abusing (criticizing) Islam’s prophet, such as singing girls, the one-eyed man, and the unnamed pregnant lady found here:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/038.sat.html#038.4348. Of course, not all his critics were killed, some only had their teeth knocked out.

Most of these names here are also found in this Islamic site that cites their murder as justification for killing people that are critical of the man you say encouraged free discussion:
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/alshifa/pt4ch1sec2.htm):
Quote: Similarly on the Day of the Conquest, he ordered the killing of Ibn Khatal and his two slavegirls who used to sing his curses on the Prophet.
In another hadith about a man who used to curse the Prophet, the Prophet said, “Who will save me from my enemy?” Khalid said, “I will,” so the Prophet sent him out and he killed him – and so on… Follow the link and read it yourself. Do some research. Read the ahadith. It took me two months to read the 30 volumes of Tabari (all those night raids on villages…).

I apologize to Mahmood for this type of posting, but I feel that he can handle it. I think he prefer that his visitors be honest, even if offensive. Out of respect for his good work, I will be honest.

To me, the primary problem is not what Mohammad said and did. His acts were mostly common for a warlord of his age. The problem is the total lack of honesty among Muslims about these things. They don’t read their own writings, or if they do, they are intellectually and morally blind to what the words say. Because of this, things won’t change, but will get worse.

Personally, I find the whole thing beyond comprehension. How can Muslims read the ahadith and biographies of their prophet and not feel uneasy? How can they say he was a mercy for all mankind? Tell that to the people of Banu Mustaliq.

Sadly, it seems that the only Muslims that are honest about Islam are the so-called radicals. That is, in my opinion, why the radicals are gaining. At least they understand the meaning of words.

Well, that is it for now.

J. Kactuz (telling it like it is for 7 decades)

PS: Salman Rushdie didn’t make up the Satanic Verses story. Why the outrage now? It has been around for 1,200 years and was taken from Tabari
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Jarir_al-Tabari)
So why don’t Muslims issue a fatwa against old Tabari. That will teach him a lesson.

. L
Unnamed One-eyed Bedouin (*), Uqba bin Abu Muayt (*).

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Agreed. God is such a big shot that He can take revenge by Himself.

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The shades of brown are a pleasure to the eye, but the two sidebars are a little crowded.

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