Just Fifteen?

23 Oct, '07

Mohammed Sangoor, secretary of the Ulama Council of Bahrain
The turbans are up in arms, some of them at least, accusing the government in interfering in God’s law and the Prophet’s by introducing a minimum age for marriage. Boys should wait until 18 while girls the minimum is 15. Otherwise the marriage cannot be legally recognised.

If the girl can cut her own food then surely she should be bundled up in black and transported to the matrimonial bed

Well, why should there be a limit at all? If the girl can cut her own food then surely she should be bundled up in black and transported to the matrimonial bed – regardless of her wishes and the louder the screams for mummy to come help her while clutching her teddy bear to her immature chest the better. If she hadn’t started having her periods yet, well then, I suppose it should be regarded as training-time until she gets the capability of doing her honourable vocation and be a venerable breeding machine.

I wonder what would have happened if (God forbid) the government proposed (as it should have) to put the minimum normal marriage age at 18 for the couple?

How dare the government propose such an ungodly law?

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Comments (118)

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  1. Ali says:

    This is one fact that many westerners find abhorrant about the chosen religion. Not only is it regarded as peadiophilia and thus a sex crime in the West, there are those in the West who are going around publicly stating that the Prophet himself encouraged the practice of marrying and having sex with underage/underdeveloped girls.

    Now I am not sure how accurate this is and hope that other enlightened readers of your esteemed blog may be able to put them right but I ask , can it really be true that we follow a religion which condones and even encourages such an obvioulsy abhorrant practice.

    I truly hope that other more educated readers can quote me chapter and verse to demonstrate that this is not true – otherwise by even hinting that according to Gods law such things are OK you may have inadvertently done our culture and religion a disservice.

    But then I don’t know – how does Silly Bahraini Girl stand on this issue – would she have blindly followed “Gods law”?

  2. Ali says:

    I found this link which shows just what westerners think – it is very disturbing so unless you are sure sound faith and can tolerate the opposing views of our culture do NOT follow it.

    http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/playboy.html

    I hope there are other references among our educated readers who can discount these lies.

  3. Eyad says:

    PROPS TO THE GOVERNMENT, for once at least a new rule that actually make sense, well, a little maybe, but its still good.

    I think the age limit for females should be 18 as well, girls at 15 these days are still kids and can’t judge things the way an adult does, not all of them for that matter, but all of them can’t be wifes.

    I know that Islam says something else, but I also know that Islam is a religion that has room for development and those who want Islam to be the same way it was 1400 years ago should not preach because they don’t live with us in the same world we live in.

    @Ali, what do you think the problem is? is it really Islam? or is it the Muslims?

    those who wrote history, emphasized on what they see important, and some went as far as bending the truth, hiding the truth or even changing the truth for reasons that serves no one but them, people stupidly and blindly follow them and take things to extremes which brings no good to the nation they belong to.

    the world needs to see and document things subjectively and stop running after their feelings and passion, those two didn’t do the world any good in the History department.

    Bill Maher the Host of HBO’s Real Time is one of the few TV show hosts that I actually respect, he is against all religions, not as a religion but as way to run the world, those who watch his show and scream let’s kill the bastard are those who need to kill them self, I watched his show for a long time and it shows that he did his home work on many religions, when it comes to Islam, he seemed to have the wrong Idea when I first watched the show, later on I discovered that any person who reads our history, and really gets deep into it will have the same Idea, because all what the History says about Islam, is that we marry 4 women, get a hundred others as Sabaya or Jawari, then you get into the Mutaa and Misyaar, then the part that is getting pretty famous these days, Jihad.

    I think I wrote more than Mahmood, so I will shut up now.

  4. mahmood says:

    Oh carry on and don’t mind me! When we start discussing, we might actually reach a solution. Maybe not as our Mr. Sangoor wants – and that is the sacredness of his interpretation and maybe we will demand that the Personal Effects Law actually does become law, but we might actually reach a consensus as to the marriageable age of a young women.

  5. mahmood says:

    I hope there are other references among our educated readers who can discount these lies.

    Taking it from a practical point of view, and without getting religion into the story, I would think that a girl of 15 (regardless of era) is not ready physically nor emotionally for the institution of marriage.

    Now in this day and age where living is rather difficult, and earning a living is doubly so, that young person should be encouraged first and foremost to secure an education which she might use in establishing a career not only to secure a regular pay, but to be emotionally and spiritually fulfilling to her too. And getting bogged down with marriage at that young and impressionable age just does not help the situation.

  6. Aliandra says:

    When are people in Bahrain considered legal adults? Is there a certain minimum age when one can drive, hold a job, or vote?

    Fifteen – way too young for modern times. In the (far) past it may have made sense, being that most folks didn’t live past age 40 and you had to marry and have kids right away to keep the human species going.

  7. Anonny says:

    It’s risky for teenage girls to become
    pregnant. Earlier than eighteen is
    hazardous for the young female body.
    Why put women in more danger than
    necessary. This is the clincher for me.

    \Devils advocate mode\

    As for emotional unreadiness … well,
    that’s subjective. Most cultures place
    the male over the female in terms of
    authority anyway, so impressionability
    in many parts of the world is considered
    a plus.

    Also, if most women get married
    young then “most women get married young”
    and it’s not really a mental health
    issue when everybody’s doing it, is it?
    Society became supportive. Family were
    always nearby, unlike now. Were the
    old days in the Muslim world that bad
    for women _in_reality_? I’ve been
    fortunate enough in my life to have met
    a few Bahraini grandmothers who married
    in their teens and started churning out
    kids by the dozen who then have had
    grand-kids by the dozen, and I have to
    admit that I haven’t seen much
    unhappiness. These old-school girls seem
    so much cooler than the rest of us –
    real characters.

    In the old days – and I truly believe
    this – people were more humane to one
    another in general. OK, healthcare and
    sanitation were crap but in peacetime
    people were pretty decent to one another.
    Are all the old people of the world all
    senile when they express sentiments such
    as these?

    I don’t think the age of women getting
    married is as much of an emotional health
    issue as Westerners think it is. Women –
    or men for that matter – can be weak and
    impressionable or powerful and assertive
    at any age.

    To my tiny mind, polygamy is far more of
    a problem. I’ve encountered 3 families in
    Bahrain where the man of the house has
    reached his elder years and taken on a
    young new wife and brought her into the
    household. In each cases the first wife
    is totally miserable, with her self-respect
    taking a real beating, and the children
    have divided loyalties, and are pained
    at the sight of their unhappy mother.
    A friend of mine has no relationship with
    his step mother and I don’t think he has
    even met his half-brothers and sisters.
    I don’t think that’s healthy.

    I think what’s behind the disgust that
    many feel about youthful marriage is
    the image of a cynical older man dominating
    and perhaps moulding a pure young girl.
    This is what offends Western sensibilities
    the most. When I think of two teenagers getting married and growing together with
    the support and guidance of their
    community, it doesn’t upset me much.
    Teenagers are horny beasts if I remember
    rightly, and earlier marriages would
    integrate their sexual heat better with
    all the other functional drives of the
    community.

    People will say that they are too young to
    know what they want, and that they should
    wait around for the right person, but that’s
    a fallacy, isn’t it? The right person may
    never come, and the older we get, the less
    flexible we become. Romance is stupid.
    Real love requires that one puts the hours
    in.

    My parents got married very young and
    stayed together for 25 years. My uncles
    and brother got married in their late
    twenties/early thirties and they’ve all
    been through painful separations and
    divorces already. It’s messy.

    /Devil’s advocate mode off/

    That was a long post. It’s such fun to be
    disagreable! 😉

  8. 15.
    way too kinky!

  9. Anonny says:

    I’m sorry, I forgot to conclude:-

    On reflection, I would consider 18-25 to be
    the ideal age range for marriage. I also
    feel that marriages between 2 people of
    widely differing age should be of concern to
    people around the couple in question. For
    example, a satyr in his fifties wanting to
    marry an 18-year old girl is clearly not
    looking for an ideal match nor setting a
    good example. Not from her point of view
    anyway. Any adult male wanting to marry
    a 13-year old girl is clearly a deeply
    nasty character.

  10. Salman says:

    Islam says, anyone who is old enough, and wise enough to make their own decisions in life and can stand up on their feet. Age is a mere number, and cannot judge a person.

    Mahmood is just exaggerating the issue, and taking words out of context, not properly explaining the matter, and pulls words out of context just like the western media does.

    This is like the Stop Wanking! topic. The cleric clearly stated that girls should not masturbate (masturbation is forbidden in Islam by the way, did Mahmood ever mention that to the readers?), especially by inserting things into herself that may break her hymen, as the hymen in our society is a sign of virginity, and it will be hard for a girl to marry if she had lost her hymen by her masturbating. You think her family will trust her when she tells her dad “I was masturbating”? I even asked Mahmood to put himself in the scenario, and would he trust his daughter if she gave him that answer. He simply ran away from the debate. The cleric was addressing the reality of the situation, not how it should be in a “perfect world” which only exists in Mahmood’s mind.

    He knows that controversy makes money. Do you think he spends money on this site just as a hobby?

    All are being fooled by the man who is being different just to attract some attention.

  11. Barry says:

    Salman: You’re so cute when you make no sense. LOL

  12. Eyad says:

    @Salman, Masterbating has to do with marrige, it has to do with self control, and please find another place to bash man than his own place.

    Now be a good muslim and tell me how ready you were to make a family when you were fifteen.

  13. Salman says:

    Eyad,

    Masturbating with your wife, or for a woman’s regard, with her husband, is allowed and normal.

    Islam forbids masturbation for those who are not bound by a legal contract of marriage. Is that not enough self control? Islam forbids alcohol consumption. Are you going to tell me “it has to do with self control” as well?

    Barry, you and all those who enjoy this site, enjoy it because this man “dares” to be “different” than the mainstream.

    Barry, how long have you lived in Bahrain? Have you lived among the society as a Bahraini? Lived the same way Bahraini’s live? So that you understand our ways of life? If yes, then I must say, you must have learned nothing about our culture.

    I see past the camouflage, which seems not many here can.

    Go back to the Wafa Sultan topic, I posted a video where Wafa Sultan got grilled by the cleric, with basic truth. Why did Mahmood not post that video and rather post the video which was edited to her talking a bunch of crap out of her ass and the cleric was just giving her her chance to speak? Doesn’t want you guys to know that Wafa Sultan your “hero” got grilled big time, did he?

  14. mahmood says:

    So you would be okay for your 13 year-old sister to be married then Salman?

  15. mahmood says:

    Salman, please stay on-topic. Should you wish to masturbate or discuss that issue, please choose the appropriate place, topic or time to do so.

  16. Anonny says:

    Islam says, anyone who is old enough, and wise enough to make their own decisions in life and can stand up on their feet. Age is a mere number, and cannot judge a person.

    Hi Salman,

    Firstly, who judges who is old and wise
    enough?

    Secondly, age is not just a mere number.
    Especially when it comes to the physical
    female body. Modern medical knowledge
    tells us that teenage pregnancies are
    statistically much more dangerous than
    pregnancies a just a couple of years later
    in life. Since the Gulf countries seem to
    have a culture of “hurry up and have kids
    as soon as you’re wed”, doesn’t it make
    sense to make it illegal for a 13-year-
    old girl, for example, to marry?

  17. abu arron says:

    Salman, I thought such behaviour affected your eyesight, not your judgement!! 😳

    A VERY difficult subject indeed. In order to facilitate (and obey) such a sensible law (still way too young for my comfort), many years of tradition and practice have to be discarded. Sounds good to me, but where the hairies get agitated is the fear of what other traditions and practices may be discarded along the way? No more blind obedience of the flock? Positively terrifying for them.

    In view of the somewhat insular lifestyle of females in the Gulf, I would consider a fifteen year old local girl to be even less prepared for the ‘ravages’ of marriage compared to a westerner – and they certainly aren’t mature enough either at that age, hence their higher minimum age.

    It’s all a question of the disparity between a young woman’s physical ‘maturity’ and their intellectual capabilities – or is it just a case of male sexual gratification and/or stocking breeding sheds and damn the girls emotions?!

  18. LOL,
    looks like a maxim magazine discussion :p
    why do someone go to jail if he has illegal sex with girl below 18 or 21 ( i don’t remember the exact age).
    She won’t be punished because she’s not mature, not a single bearded man can complain about the innocent little girl who was miss leaded by the beast.

    Anyone below the legal age, cannot buy a house because he’s a kid in the eyes of the law. he cannot manage any wealth he inherited.

    In the mean time, she can raise kids, choose a perfect husband and manage an family.

    “How Rare!” weebl and bob

  19. mdc says:

    “Barry, you and all those who enjoy this site, enjoy it because this man “dares” to be “different” than the mainstream.”

    What mainstream would that be, Salman.

    You are already confusing me with Mahmood’s motives with first it’s about making money (He knows that controversy makes money) and then it’s the ego thing to attract attention by being different(All are being fooled by the man who is being different just to attract some attention.)

    So which is it, and which mainstream are you ranting about? Muslims, Arabs, men, human beings?

  20. Ali says:

    So, did the Prophet consumate his marriage to the underage girl?

  21. sara says:

    Ali-back then there was no such thing as underage! I think he waited to consumate the marriage until she began menstruating which in most girls is between 10-12 years old. So, still considered pedophilia in my book!

    I was still playing with Barbie dolls at 12!

  22. ash says:

    In the UK kids can get married at 16 with parental consent and at 18 without parental consent. In practice, hardly any get married so young as 16. Even to get married at 18 is unusual except in the poorest communities. On the other hand, generally we don’t share this idea that virginity is important; marriage doesn’t seem so appealing to youngsters when it’s not their only opportunity for sex.

    And I agree with Anonny with regards age differences.

  23. In Germany we have same rules like ash described for the UK – and I think they are just good that way.

    I think everybody should have ended their education before even thinking of marrying – anything else is too risky for their future as well as their kids’. Also they should have to get their own personality which humans usually find in that teen-age.

    @ sara / 21:

    The time girls begin menstruating may be between 10 and 12 now, but it surely wasn’t at the time Mohammad married that kid. This age when girls start menstruating has lowered over the last centuries, so it may have been even higher than 15 then.

  24. a says:

    @simon
    actually it is thought to be 9 or 10. and it said that girls in warmer areas reach puberty at a younger age. and the prophet PBUH got married aisha when she was 9, the thing that happened at age of 6 isn’t that actual marriage in the sense we know it nowadays. this is furthermore explained in this post and hopefully you’ll actually read it instead of ignoring it (like many other people who talk about this issue and yet fail to read this link when i post it).

    http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2005/the-young-marriage-of-aishah/

    and sorry for going off topic, i tend to read and not post but i wanted to clear this thing because it was brought up several times in this topic.

  25. @ a:

    German Wikipedia tells an age “between 10 and 14” with the average at 12,5 years, so if we consider that in warmer regions the menstruation starts earlier, but also the age has lowered in the last centuries, we can still say Aisha was nothing of a woman at the age of 9.

    (If I remember correctly it is not sure whether Aisha was nine years or older?)

  26. Jay says:

    I’m confused. Is this discussion about marriage? or about sex? The first does lead to the other usually, but the two topics shouldn’t be treated as one and the same.

    I will follow Mahmood’s lead in his post and focus on the marriage aspect first. I really can’t imagine what kind of parents would force their 15 yo or younger daughter into the mercy of a stranger against her will, but I will assume that such parents exist, even in a small community such as the bahraini community. With that assumption in place, setting a legal age of consent “although I don’t understand on what basis did they decide that at 15 a girl is perfectly capable of bearing children without endagering her own health and the baby’s first, and capable of performing a wife’s and a mother’s role second” does sound like an effective way of preventing further incidents where the a young girl has to undergo such abuse from people who are supposed to protect her.

    If one thinks about it really. 600 years ago life was far harsher than the life we live now. And it just might be possible for a 13yo girl living in Mecca in the 15th century to have a more developed sense of responsibility and maturity than let’s say, a pampered 20yo daddy’s girl in our generation…just maybe..

    I personally think that just because Islam allows something to happen, it doesn’t mean that it applies to every situation. The prophet’s wife Aisha might have had the mindstate of a mature woman capable of making the decesion of marriage and bearing children, as it might have been common practice back in the day. She might have even known of the danger it caused on her health to bear children at a young age “i’m not sure if she DID bear children at all”. And maybe, im taking a leap here, just maybe that for Aisha it might have been an honor to do so with the prohpet of the relegion she embraced.

    that might have been the sort of personality that was the product of life the desert of arabia in the 15 century. And just because marriage to a 13yo was O.K back then doesn’t mean that it should be O.K in every other situation. It’s a possible choice, but not one that has to be taken, surely not if it would harm the wife, the husband, or their children for that matter.

    A legal age of consent might be a powerful tool to prevent a not so uncommon story of abuse of young women by their parents who use relegion as their excuse to get whatever kick they get out of commiting such an act.

    It might prevent teenagers who are actually willing to marry in consent from getting married early. But think about it, what’s a more terrible thought, a young girl getting raped “legally” at hands of the man her parents chose for her?, or two 16 year olds having to wait a couple of years until they can get married “legaly” ?? It might be a good thing for the young ones to wait, finish their highschool education “at least”, establish themselves, and maybe get over at what could have been a foolish young crush that would have resulted in divorce and traumatized children.

    There is one flaw to this though. I’m no scholar in Islam, but I am assuming that part of having such a young age of marriage is to prevent the occurance of sex outside marriage, and in turn to prevent the conception of bastards. So it comes down to this, two 16yos madly in love and lusting for each other all the time, what’s to prevent them from sneaking around and getting their freak on? After all, there is no legal way to do it in marriage.

    And don’t be mistaken. A good portion of teenagers in bahrain HAVE BEEN getting freaky with it “having sex” before there ever was a legal age of marriage. So keeping the age of marriage open did not completely remedy the issue of sex outside marriage in our society. I guess an added benifit to this law is that parents will not to be immediatly able to force a girl to marry her boyfriend if they ever do get caught in the act.

    I guess there are many ways to look at this. I have rambled on long enough. Sorry for the long post and also for any ignorance I’ve displayed.

  27. Jay says:

    It seems I have made some errors regarding the dats mentioned in the post above. I got a litte confused with the numbers. The prophet and Aisha lived in the 7th century rather than the 15th. Sorry for the misshap ><

  28. Ahmed says:

    This post as well as the following discussion pointed out a fundamental flaw in the so called ‘perfect religion’ Islam. In fact, allot of atheist/agnostic activists use Mohammed’s marriage to Aisha in arguments that refute the divinity of Mohammed’s message.

    This is one of the topics where practitioners of Islam substitute reason and rationality with blind faith. It is also proof that religion is dangerous and has the potential to harm the human race.

    I better stop now before my head gets chopped off…

  29. Barry says:

    Funny how one line can bring out the great tempest within Salman. Ha ha.

    Salman:

    Did I ever say I understood Bahraini society? Did I ever say “Oh, well, ALL Bahrainis are like such and such?” No, I didn’t, so stop putting words in my mouth.

    My response was en total towards YOUR assertation that Mahmood stands to make money off of being “different” and all of that other crazy talk you’ve spouted here (although I recall from past responses of yours, you work like a broken record).

    You’d better be careful with your statements about me not knowing Bahraini culture, when it’s pretty obvious the road is running both ways here, dude. I don’t think you want a taste of Californian sarcasm. For your sake, I’m reeling myself in. I could make you look really dumb if I wanted.

    Finally, how arrogant of you to presume you really know WHY I am here. I see you acting like you know me at all. If you knew me, you would know that I’m here primarily for his garden posts. How many of these political posts do I ever post to? I like Mahmood because he’s sharp as a razor and is into plants, not because he’s some “sell out” like you appear to be implying (High and mighty, you say selling out is a shame, is that the name of your book?).

    So please dude, put down the pipe and learn some humility, you’ll save yourself the embarassment of looking like a jerk.

    kthxgbye. 😆

  30. abu arron says:

    prevent the conception of bastards

    What?! Have you never driven in Kuwait? Sorry, just a joke (only just) 😛

  31. a says:

    @Simon
    wikipedia articles can be edited anonymously by anyone, without a reliable source stated then anyone could have edited that article and said its from 10+, at least in the link i gave you they state the book they their facts from.

    and about aisha being 9 or not, all that i read about it is shes 9, i never read that there was some doubt about her age at that time.

    @Ahmed
    apparently you didn’t bother yourself with reading the link i posted when i was talking to simon, because reason and rationality tells me that the prophet PBUH got married to aisha at an age where she could have reached pubirty, yet you ignore that and still claim to be talking about reason and rationality? this just shows that you simply refuse to find the actual truth about this matter and just stick with your idea. and if you want to use reason and rationality read a page or two of this site, http://www.islam-guide.com/ , and tell me honestly what do you think.

    again i apologize for going sort of off topic but when people post stuff like this someone needs to reply to them, and it would be them who are hijacking the thread not me :).

  32. victoria says:

    Well Done Mahmood for highlighting this issue and well done BAHRAIN ! for joining a world concensus on this matter as most countries set 18(males ) and 16(females) as a suitable minimum marriageable age and this is often the case with the minimum age for sexual consent.

    Such laws are designed to protect the innocent and especially children from potential obusers and it never ceases to amaze me at what lenghths paedeaphiles will go to justify their right to have sex with minors… some even use religion which frankly is about as low as it can get…. 😡

    Vic

    http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age

  33. Ahmed says:

    @a
    It doesn’t matter if she hit puberty or not at that age. Puberty is one thing and being mentally mature enough to consent to a full sexual experience with an adult is another. How can a girl at that age defend her self against the sexual perversions of an adult at that age? She can’t. What is marriage? Isn’t it a contract to regularize the union of a man and a women and sex is at the core of that union. I.E. how could she consent to marriage at that age?

    I am not going to start a pro/against pedophilia argument here. This topic was hammered to death in many forums around the globe. There are even many human rights groups specializing in the exploitation of children for sex. Start a google search for that topic if you’re interested and you will be bombarded with results.

    This is way off topic but it needs to be addressed…
    About the link you posted arguing that Islam is all about reason. In the “scientific miracles” of the Quran section, all I keep reading are knowledge already present in the Roman Empire at the time of Mohammed. Nothing new and most certainly nothing “scientific”. Remember that Mohammad was exposed to the knowledge of the Roman Empire during his trips to the north for commerce. I would label this section “plagiarism” not “scientific miracles”.

    Other sections are just idiotic. I am not going to go through them. They keep interpreting forward-looking educated guesses as miracles. If that’s the case then all the stock market brokers should be worshiped because most of their work involve forward-looking statements.

  34. Farid says:

    Ahmed: “Remember that Mohammad was exposed to the knowledge of the Roman Empire during his trips to the north for commerce. I would label this section “plagiarism” not “scientific miracles”.”

    I beg to differ. The scientific miracles that are found in the Qur’an may sometimes be similar to some Ancienct Greek/Roman knowledge, but if Mohammed (pbuh) plagiarised, then he would’ve also copied down all their scientific inaccuracies as well.

    It’s like cheating on a test. If you copy the answers of your classmate, you will also copy the wrong ones.

    “This is one of the topics where practitioners of Islam substitute reason and rationality with blind faith. It is also proof that religion is dangerous and has the potential to harm the human race.”

    Sigh… Dude, there is no reason to resort to blind faith in this situation. A’isha was engaged even before her second engagement to the Prophet (pbuh). It was common for people to get married young.

    Now, to get back on topic…

    Mahmood, I’m surprised that you would bring an issue like this up. Your stance and sarcasm shows that you prefer man-made laws over the laws of your Creator.

    Is this the case? Do you believe that we should seperate church and state even more?

    I personally believe that anyone who thinks that their laws can fit a society better than the laws of their Creator is a complete idiot. This goes to people of all religions, not just to Muslims.

    Thoughts?

  35. mahmood says:

    Do you believe that we should seperate church and state even more?

    yes

    I personally believe that anyone who thinks that their laws can fit a society better than the laws of their Creator is a complete idiot.

    count me as one then, if that would make you happy.

    Thoughts?

    You certainly need some.

  36. ash says:

    @ Ahmed – “It doesn’t matter if she hit puberty or not at that age. Puberty is one thing and being mentally mature enough to consent to a full sexual experience with an adult is another.”

    Absolutely. Puberty hit me when I was about 12. I had very little ideas what was going on (yes, we’d had lessons on the topic in school but when you’re a kid it all sounds gross and a long way off). Other stuff I was doing at 12: just started high school, still sleeping with a teddy bear, climbing trees, mad about horses, etc. In short, regardless of how my body was starting to change, I was still very much a child. Had my father immediately married me off to some leering 53 year old down the road, this would have been child abuse, plain and simple. And my life would have been utterly ruined, forever.

    As you so eloquently say, puberty is one thing; adulthood is quite another.

  37. billT says:

    Barry Salman should pick up the pipe not put it down.

  38. billT says:

    Marrying young girls off is just another form of slavery.

  39. Farid says:

    Mahmood: “count me as one then, if that would make you happy.”

    Ouch, I wasn’t expecting that from someone like you. I hope you are aware that the values that you embrace contradict each other.

    How can anyone juggle a belief in a Creator, His Omniscience, and the idea that man is a better law maker?!

    I do recall you mentioning that you are a Muslim. I hope I am not mistaken.

    Anyways, take a look at the Qur’an 5:44-47

    “…and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.”

    Also, check out 45:18

    Then We put thee on the (right) Way of Religion: so follow thou that (Way), and follow not the desires of those who know not.”

    Honestly, I don’t know what to make of this “modern” view. If we abolish the laws of a religion, how can we rightfully claim to still follow it? Is Islam outdated? Did Allah (swt) command us to reinterpret His divine laws if we feel that they are not suitable?

    Mahmood: “You certainly need some.”

    Witty one-liners aren’t a good defense if you haven’t even established your reasonings.

    Thoughts?

  40. mahmood says:

    Without resorting to Quranic text, with respect, explain to me logically how circumstances 1400 years ago apply with those we live in today?

    Oh, and without throwing that “I thought you were a Muslim” bit. For the sake of argument assume that I am a Martian who have no knowledge of Earthly ancient religions.

  41. DK says:

    Hey Mahmood,
    I like your sarcasm on the issue despite its serious nature. But prior to this law, how common was it for a girl to be married at the age of 12? I personally think that 15 is still too young, and you seem to agree. How can anyone believe that a 15 year old is capable of taking on the responsibilities of motherhood? Most of the 15 year olds that I know aren’t sufficiently capable of taking care of themselves, let alone possibly an infant. Here in the U.S we are looking to avoid teen pregnancies and it seems that Bahrain is looking to do the same. Knowing the current political climate, what do you think the possibility is of raising the age again? Do most men share your point of view in believing that the marriage age is too low?

  42. Farid says:

    Without resorting to Quranic text, with respect, explain to me logically how circumstances 1400 years ago apply with those we live in today?

    I will agree that the situation we live in today is different that what it was 1400 years ago. Yet, Allah (swt) was aware of this.

    We are aware that Mohammed (pbuh) was the last prophet and that the laws that he came with him abrogated the laws that came before him.

    Those facts alone are enough to be sure that Allah (swt) wants His laws to be observed until the end.

    An omniscient Creator is capable of making a set of laws that are perfect for all ages, don’t you agree?

    This is the logical evidence.

    Also, I don’t think that we should limit this subject to al aql. We shouldn’t leave the Qur’an out of this matter since it is our main link to our religion.

    Naql is more important than aql, but that’s another topic for another time… if you’d like.

  43. Anonny says:

    Farid,

    What is a reasonable age, according to you, for a girl to be legally married?

    Do you feel that it should be legal for a man in his 50’s to marry a teenage girl and father children on her?

    Do you have daughters of your own?

  44. Jay says:

    I guess I’m more on Mahmood’s side in that I like to understand an act before starting to do it blindly.I believe that Islam was created to be an excellent “yet not perfect, due to some practices I don’t completely agree with..yet” path to a better life for both the individual and the society once practiced properly “no society achieved that yet since the death of the prophet”, but I am also very interested in finding the logical reason behind the different rules and guidelines and practices Islam sets for us “save a few routine acts like praying 5 times a day and fasting etc.. those I do regardless, with enough difficulty”. I guess It’s a question of “Why should I be doing this? How am I or anyone else better off? What’s the point?” And the answer that god commanded it doesn’t quite cut it.

    Farid, your arguments are weak because of a vital flaw. They are irrelevant to someone who believes in no god or has no knowledge of an Islamic mind state or termenology. You say God intended this and God is capable of that and you quote the Quran. This might appeal to a simpelton who’s seeking a greater existance to blindly follow. But I’m assuming that a martian who has no knowledge of earth relegions would have achieved space flight and has a high enough intellect to want to be persuaded logically rather than by magic and miracles.

    Now go ahead, explain how circumstances 1400 years ago apply with those we live in today?
    Stay away from what your God said, use relevant controversial examples comparing life 1400 years ago and life now and how different Islamic rules can apply to both times.

    Btw, personally I do think that Islam can apply largly “though not completely” to our day and age. But that’s your argument. go ahead..

  45. @ a / 31:

    That’s weak.

  46. Ali says:

    The way I’m thinking is that religion has no place in this modern age. Let individuals believe and practice what they wish but don’t try to force their beliefs on others. I want the freedom to pick what I believe and live my life as far as possible how I want without being told what is and what isn’t God’s ( If he exists?)laws.

  47. mahmood says:

    This is the logical evidence.

    No it isn’t.

    That is a matter of faith. Not logic.

    Try again.

  48. Jaim says:

    It is a matter of faith, and if you want to believe, do so and if not it’s up to you.

    18:29 Say, “The truth is from your Lord”: Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!

    People might argue, why do some people follow religions blindly? It is a matter of faith. They might argue, what’s the point of praying five times a day, fasting, zakaat and all that?
    Again, the ultimate point is what God Almighty said 51:56 I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.

    Yeah some might fight this argument, but what I have to do is clarify, if you don’t like it or don’t accept it. It’s up to you. I do it to await the rewards in the afterlife. That’s where the eternal happiness is. This world is a mere test of faith, not logic. Although logic has to intervene in some cases, but there are things that should NOT be questioned because they simply lead to people saying or thinking badly about their creator God Almighty. That’s where the limits are. part of 65:1 Those are limits set by Allah. and any who transgresses the limits of Allah, does verily wrong his (own) soul: thou knowest not if perchance Allah will bring about thereafter some new situation.

    I agree that some Muslim “scholars” abuse their position as scholars and try to impose things which are of their own interpretation of Quran and Sunnah. Don’t think that this type of people will go unpunished. 2:85 After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancour; and if they come to you as captives, ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.

    In the end, whether you want to believe it or not … 9:32 Fain would they extinguish Allah’s light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).

  49. Ali says:

    “save a few routine acts like praying 5 times a day and fasting etc.. those I do regardless, with enough difficulty”. I guess It’s a question of “Why should I be doing this? How am I or anyone else better off? What’s the point?” And the answer that god commanded it doesn’t quite cut it.

    The reason why we have to pray 5 times a day is to constantly remind ourselveses of the commitment to the religion.

    Then the reason why we have friday prayers is so that those who are a little lapse on the daily routine have their faith rebooted once a week.

    Then, for those who even lapse once a week we have the fasting month once a year to bring all the lapsing multidue back into line at least once a year.

    Then once in a ife time we have the pilgrimage to catch up with all the fasting lapses.

    Simple isn’t it – a form of conditioning so that we never forget what was installed during childhood, when we didn’t remeber it being done and had no chioce.

    No wonder you still do it.

  50. Anonny says:

    The mistake Westerners make is to assume that Islam is trying to do a bad job of putting the individual person first. It is not. It puts the Umma first. For the new breed of Muslim thinker, it makes as much sense to worry about the state of an individual in the body politic as it does to worry about the state of an individual cell in the body biological. Hence the lack of concern for the health of teenage mothers – all that matters is whether they breed.

  51. mahmood says:

    Although logic has to intervene in some cases, but there are things that should NOT be questioned because they simply lead to people saying or thinking badly about their creator God Almighty.

    That’s why science and scientific pursuits are dead in the Islamic world.

    I do it to await the rewards in the afterlife.

    And that’s one of the standard cop-outs that allows things like terrorism to flourish.

  52. mahmood says:

    […] Then once in a ife time we have the pilgrimage to catch up with all the fasting lapses.

    sounds like a good plan… let’s just stick with the end-result and live happy! 😈

  53. Jay says:

    Funky :D, Although I have my own justification for each. Inetersting way to look at it though

  54. some people will end up with their heads chopped i guess :p

  55. mahmood says:

    some people will end up with their heads chopped i guess

    and that’s the reason why no one is daring to criticise, even if for a better and fuller understanding of the faith.

  56. Salman says:

    So, Mahmood’s conclusion is, humans know better than God. Isn’t that correct Mahmood?

  57. Farid says:

    Farid, your arguments are weak because of a vital flaw. They are irrelevant to someone who believes in no god or has no knowledge of an Islamic mind state or termenology. You say God intended this and God is capable of that and you quote the Quran. This might appeal to a simpelton who’s seeking a greater existance to blindly follow.

    Jay, I’m aware that there are atheists that visit this blog, but what you’re failing to see is that I’m NOT addressing them. My comments are directed towards Mahmood.

    No it isn’t.

    That is a matter of faith. Not logic.

    Try again.

    I gotta admit that I am discouraged by your lack of effort.

    Anyways, it’s clear that I made a few assumptions that I shouldn’t have made. My future posts in this blog, if I do make any future posts for that matter, will not include any Qur’an.

  58. mahmood says:

    I’m glad you’re putting some effort into the argument Farid, I am sure that Allah will reward you justly for it.

    In order to get that reward, you verily must address everyone rather than single out one person, that way, the majesty of your argument can encompass all who read this post.

  59. Jay says:

    Hey Farid,

    That’s the thing, Mahmood asked you to think of him as an alien who’s clueless about any relegion. That was part of the challange. And as Mahmood said, doing so will get everybody in the discussion involved rather than just him.

    And I really was looking forward for a good argument on your side Farid. Don’t back out just yet. Prove to everyone that Islam is a relegion that applies in our time and age as much as back in the days of the prophet. Logically ofcourse.

    And guys stop it with the flaming. It really takes out the fun of a good discussion. Attack the argument not the person.

    Peace

  60. Jay says:

    Oh, and how do you use the yellow quote block thing? I’d experiment with it but I dont want to mess this place up.

    Thanks

  61. mahmood says:

    The Help section has a good explanation.

  62. Farid says:

    Oh, and how do you use the yellow quote block thing?

    Highlight the text and click on the “B-Quote” button.

    Prove to everyone that Islam is a relegion that applies in our time and age as much as back in the days of the prophet. Logically ofcourse.

    Well, without using any Qur’an or prophetic narrations, I’m afraid that is pretty hard to do. I think that people are required to initially believe in Islam before accepting that it can be applied our day and age.

    It’s like you’re asking me to logically prove that aliens are going to attack us without first establishing that they exist.

    Yeah, it’s a bad analogy, but I hope you get what I’m trying to say.

    Yet, once someone believes in Islam, it is extremely easy to prove that the laws of Allah (swt) should still be observed. Accepting Islam means accepting everything in the Qur’an. Disbelieving with anything in the Qur’an makes you an unbeliever.

    Also, I will admit, that there are things in the Qur’an that are illogical to many people because the Qur’an tells of things that are beyond us. For example, there are verses about the jinn/demons/spirits. To most people, the existance of the jinn is illogical, because if they lived among us, then we should be able to see them. Yet, if one accepts Islam, then they should put the words of Allah (swt) in front of their own intellect and admit that there are things that we cannnot grasp.

    In order to get that reward, you verily must address everyone rather than single out one person, that way, the majesty of your argument can encompass all who read this post.

    Strange. I don’t get why you keep talking to me in a condescending manner. Do you resent me for giving you some advice?

  63. mahmood says:

    That last paragraph is beneath you my friend. I’ll let it pass.

    As to everything else in your response, well, I rest my case as you have copiously proven that we could be better served by separating religion from state. (note, I did not say religion from life, but only from state.)

  64. Farid says:

    (note, I did not say religion from life, but only from state.)

    Wouldn’t that just involve cherry picking which parts of the religion we want to practice and other parts that we’d rather do without?

    I’m sure you are aware that this is something that Allah (swt) has condemned over and over.

    By the way, if we seperated religion from state and not from life, how much of religion would we still be practicing? Wouldn’t that cause us to discard a major portion of what we have been taught?

    That last paragraph is beneath you my friend. I’ll let it pass.

    Mahmood, if this is making you feel uncomfortable, all you need to do is just say so and I will stop posting. People do tend to become excessively sarcastic when they are uncomfortable.

  65. Ali says:

    Yeah some might fight this argument, but what I have to do is clarify, if you don’t like it or don’t accept it. It’s up to you. I do it to await the rewards in the afterlife. That’s where the eternal happiness is. This world is a mere test of faith, not logic.

    So, I have decided after listening to all the arguments that I am not going to believe any longer as I do not believe in the after life nor can I believe in the existence of God.

    As to performing the meaningless rituals I would not be true to myself if I followed them so I shall stop.

    Now the point is after arriving at my decision am I a target for assination or will I just be left to live out my peaceful life and to go to hell if such place existed?

    If there is a God then by definition he is all powerful and would already have known I was going to do this and had preordained it so he knows I am going to hell, but he is the one who has sent me there.

    Anyhow if he exists and has ordained that I am not going to hell after all then he will tell me sometime in the future and then of course I will re embrace the faith.

    I’ll let you know of course when that happens,..

  66. mahmood says:

    Mahmood, if this is making you feel uncomfortable, all you need to do is just say so and I will stop posting. People do tend to become excessively sarcastic when they are uncomfortable.

    I was being polite to you, but I see it was just wasted. Sometimes, the local adage is right in that you should just not be given face.

    Now for god’s sake grow up and stick with the meat of the subject rather than go at tangents.

    It is quite evident that your faith is rather lacking as your following of Islam is simply parrot-like, rather than borne from deep conviction, as evidenced from your statement that:

    without using any Qur’an or prophetic narrations, I’m afraid that is pretty hard to do.

    and

    Yet, once someone believes in Islam, it is extremely easy to prove that the laws of Allah (swt) should still be observed.

    You set far too many conditions for believing in Islam and Allah, yet, you stand there on your soap box and castigate everyone else for validly questioning the value of adopting ancient text to rule today’s so different world and circumstances.

    Time to get off your soap box boy, you’re not worthy of it.

    One thing that you do good for is convincing people that Islam as a whole should be canned, except if you believe in parrot-like repetition of gobblygook that is not necessary to investigate and understand, just blindly believe.

    Well done. You have – once again – proved my points.

  67. Farid says:

    I was being polite to you, but I see it was just wasted. Sometimes, the local adage is right in that you should just not be given face.

    Looks like I’ve finally hit a nerve.

    Well, Mahmood, I am surprised that you feel that one who would rely on the Qur’an to prove his arguments is lacking in faith.

    Let me remind you that the Prophet (pbuh) used the Qur’an more than anything else to win converts. His companions and his family did the same whenever they were in dispute as well.

    You set far too many conditions for believing in Islam and Allah

    Actually, believing in the Qur’an’s authenticity and it’s immunity from being outdated are conditions for believing in Islam and Allah (swt).

    What is a Muslim without the Qur’an as a resource? You can’t justify your belief in Allah (swt), His religion, or His prophet (pbuh).

    One thing that you do good for is convincing people that Islam as a whole should be canned, except if you believe in parrot-like repetition of gobblygook that is not necessary to investigate and understand, just blindly believe.

    Actually, I’m a fan of ijtihad.

    Well, the one thing that you are good for is providing atheists a place to attack Islam. I haven’t seen you do a thing but agree with them, then attack those that uphold the scripture while you denounce it’s laws.

    Once again Mahmood, your logic is over rated. Everyone’s logic will lead them to something else, which is perfectly fine, until it contradicts the Qur’an.

    Because guess what?!

    Allah’s (swt) logic > yours

    Well done. You have – once again – proved my points.

    Oh it really shows that you have. Last time I checked, those that are correct didn’t have to announce that they have proven their points at the end of an argument.

    If there is a God then by definition he is all powerful and would already have known I was going to do this and had preordained it so he knows I am going to hell, but he is the one who has sent me there.

    You remind me of the thief that stole and complained that Allah (swt) had already determined that he would steal.

    The Caliph replied, “…and Allah (swt) had already determined it for me to punish you for your crime.”

    Ali, it is not the police’s fault that you got a speeding ticket for driving. They issued the law and you broke it while knowing that you will be fined if caught. It is your own fault, not the police.

  68. mdc says:

    “One thing that you do good for is convincing people that Islam as a whole should be canned, except if you believe in parrot-like repetition of gobblygook that is not necessary to investigate and understand, just blindly believe.

    Well done. You have – once again – proved my points.”

    Well certainly not canned, but his steadfast intolerance of anyone else and their point of view certainly doesn’t help the cause either. Unfortunately just an unnecessary evil we have to put up, and maybe overall that’s a good thing for us all to remember.

  69. Anonny says:

    In order to get that reward, you verily must address everyone rather than single out one person, that way, the majesty of your argument can encompass all who read this post.

    Well, Mahmood, I asked a couple of questions of Farid and Salman. I wonder if I’ll get answers …

  70. mahmood says:

    The Caliph replied, “…and Allah (swt) had already determined it for me to punish you for your crime.”

    And of course this is the standard answer you bandy about. Anyone who disagrees with you and your interpretation is an athiest, kaffir, and whatever else you do or say to exclude them from “your religion”. So I’m not really surprised that you not only condone, but advocate violence. And if this is your attempt of a threat against my life, you can stick it where the sun don’t shine.

    Once you have grown up and can actually hold an argument with logic, come back and I’ll try to accommodate your lacking intellect.

    Until then, enjoy those 72 virgins, but you won’t get to them on my watch nor at my expense.

  71. victoria says:

    Fahid

    your arguments sound very like the communist or nazi fascists that insist its their way or the high-way !!. To insist that all must obey your interpretation of God is intolerant and oppressive. In communist times belief in God was not tolerated.. and punished with holidays in siberia… in Nazi times anyone opposing the ´Führer´and his ideology were equally persecuted … I am sorry but I don´t see any difference in the form of Islam you preach.!!

  72. Farid says:

    What is a reasonable age, according to you, for a girl to be legally married?

    Do you feel that it should be legal for a man in his 50’s to marry a teenage girl and father children on her?

    Do you have daughters of your own?

    No, I don’t have daughters of my own. Anything after puberty sounds like a reasonable age.

    Legal according to what? I don’t see anything wrong with an older man getting married to a younger woman.

    Of course, I’m sure that you have your reasons as to why you see this as unethical. Well, ethics are subjective. Unless you can bring some scientific data that suggests that marrying young women is unhealthy, I will stick to my position.

    And of course this is the standard answer you bandy about. Anyone who disagrees with you and your interpretation is an athiest, kaffir, and whatever else you do or say to exclude them from “your religion”. So I’m not really surprised that you not only condone, but advocate violence. And if this is your attempt of a threat against my life, you can stick it where the sun don’t shine.

    Mahmood, can you please read through my posts carefully before jumping to conclusions. I never said that you are an atheist or a kaffir. I didn’t threaten your life either. I was responding to Ali who implied that Allah (swt) is to be blamed for the people that go to hell.

    Once you have grown up and can actually hold an argument with logic, come back and I’ll try to accommodate your lacking intellect

    Mahmood, I think that you are contradicting yourself here. How can you refer to the Qur’an as a source of your religion when you disagree with it’s teachings?

    Aren’t you aware that the Qur’an states that a thief should have their hands chopped off.

    your arguments sound very like the communist or nazi fascists that insist its their way or the high-way !!. To insist that all must obey your interpretation of God is intolerant and oppressive. In communist times belief in God was not tolerated.. and punished with holidays in siberia… in Nazi times anyone opposing the ´Führer´and his ideology were equally persecuted … I am sorry but I don´t see any difference in the form of Islam you preach.!!

    Why do you assume that I am intolerant? I don’t have the power to punish anyone nor do I have the right to.

    Victoria, is it possible for a Catholic to believe in the Trinity without accepting the divinity of Jesus?

    I’ve always thought that those two things go hand in hand. But, if I ever met someone who disagreed that there is a relation between the two, then I would be curious as to why this person has this view.

    Similarly, I wasn’t aware of any Muslims that felt that the Qur’an is outdated. Yes, I am being sincere. I’ve talked to a lot of Muslims that come from different sects and they all agree to the authenticity of the Qur’an and that it applies to all times and places. When I noticed that Mahmood disagreed with the law of Allah (swt), I was curious as to why he felt this way.

    The only response that Mahmood came up with was, “Without resorting to Quranic text, with respect, explain to me logically how circumstances 1400 years ago apply with those we live in today?”

    Anyways, I replied to his questions and addressed his points. While he dodged my answers and refused to deal with verses that I thought he accepted as the words of Allah (swt). Then he chose to respond to me in a condescending manner and respond with sarcastic one-liners. That went on for a while until he got uncomfortable and decided to mock the way I practice my religion and finally he accuses me of takfeer, which is the act of calling someone an unbeliever. This finally leads him to the conclusion that I’m out to kill him.

    Pffft…

    Once again, I did not call Mahmood an atheist. I said that he is more leniant with atheists than he is with Muslims. In my opinion, this isn’t an act of kufur but it’s not something to be proud of either.

    In my opinion, believing that Allah (swt) isn’t omniscient, or disbelieving in His book, is an act of kufur. There isn’t a Muslim alive that will deny that.

    Now, does Mahmood believe that Allah (swt) is omniscient? I assume he does. Does he believe that the Qur’an is the book of Allah (swt)? I assume he does once again.

    Believe it or not, I’m not the least bit interested in taking your life Mahmood. Even if you were attacking my religion, it is forbidden for me to lay a finger upon you without the approval of walee al amr. That’s some Islam 101 for you, just in case you weren’t aware of it. But so was the cutting of the hands of thieves, which can be found in the Qur’an. Take a look in the good book once in a while, you might learn a thing or two about your own religion.

    I do see hope in you though. I’m glad you didn’t announce yourself as the victor this time around.

  73. Astro says:

    A couple of questions for the believers:

    1. If the Creator is omniscient, why did he need so many attempts in the ReligionLab before coming up with this final “perfect” formula.

    2. If the formula is perfect, and created by the omniscient/omnipotent deity, why does it need defending from the unbelievers, sceptics, and the confused?

    3. Why is “pride” in the formula so important? And why is it a prerequisite for being able to debate the pros and cons of various aspects of this formula?

    4. Why are people from outside the club not allowed to debate the formula? Instead they are considered irrelevant, ill-informed or malicious pranksters (i.e. frivolous atheists).

    5. Finally, if the formula is so compelling, why is there always some believer ready and willing to “Clarify” (I hate that word) to the great unwashed masses the “real purpose” or “true spirit” of the formula? I guess is this a re-run of point 2 so I’ll stop here.

    ?

  74. Farid says:

    I can’t speak for believers of all religions, but I’ll try to answer your questions from an Islamic perspective.

    1. If the Creator is omniscient, why did he need so many attempts in the ReligionLab before coming up with this final “perfect” formula.

    Those in power, like rulers and clerics, have often used religion to their advantage. As years passed, they have manipulated the ancient religions to the extent that their core beliefs have somewhat become corrupted. In it’s original form, the message of each of the religions were the same.

    2. If the formula is perfect, and created by the omniscient/omnipotent deity, why does it need defending from the unbelievers, sceptics, and the confused?

    If Allah (swt) wanted everyone to believe in His formula then it will be done. There is a verse in the Qur’an where He asks the rhetorical question: “Do men imagine that they will be left (at ease) because they say, We believe, and will not be tested with affliction?”

    As you can see, it is a part of our belief that all will be tested. Not only the unbelievers, but the believers as well.

    3. Why is “pride” in the formula so important? And why is it a prerequisite for being able to debate the pros and cons of various aspects of this formula?

    I’m sorry, I do not understand the question. Can you provide an example?

    4. Why are people from outside the club not allowed to debate the formula? Instead they are considered irrelevant, ill-informed or malicious pranksters (i.e. frivolous atheists).

    That’s a misconception. In fact, if you look into Islamic history into the early stages of the Abbasid period, you will find that “Islamic Philosophy” was developed because of the great amount of debate that happened between the Muslims, Jews and Christians. I’d also like to point out that those dialogues didn’t end in bloodshed.

    Even the Prophet (pbuh) replied to the questions of critics that tested him.

    If you are referring to present times, then I would have to agree with you. Most criticisms against Islam will be found on internet forums. Ironically, most of those debating Muslims are just there to belittle and mock them. Unfortunately, many Muslims that you will find online have forgotten that there are people out there with sincere questions.

    5. Finally, if the formula is so compelling, why is there always some believer ready and willing to “Clarify” (I hate that word) to the great unwashed masses the “real purpose” or “true spirit” of the formula? I guess is this a re-run of point 2 so I’ll stop here.

    There are many reasons unfortunately. The main one is that most non-Muslims learn about Islam from anti-Islamic sites. So they come to Muslims with misconceptions or inaccurate information. There are some other problems like taking verses and Prophetic traditions out of their linguistic and sometimes historical context.

    I think that any objective reader could pick up the Qur’an and get the jist of it even without much training. Yet, there has been a lot of working written about the meanings of the book by those that lived during the revelations. Their work usually gives deeper insight into the meanings of the verses. Unfortunately, most of their work is overlooked today.

    I hope that those answers are sufficient.

  75. ash says:

    @ Farid –

    It’s like you’re asking me to logically prove that aliens are going to attack us without first establishing that they exist.

    Your arguments remind me of an old atheist vs. Christian circular argument:

    Christian: “The Bible is God’s word”

    Atheist: “How do you know?”

    Christian: “Because it says so in the Bible”.

  76. Mavis says:

    I was talking to my associate pastor, and we were discussing marriage from the Christian perspective.

    He said something that stuck with me, and it isn’t theological, what he said was, “Don’t get married until your satisfied with being single.”

    Good advice.

  77. victoria says:

    @ Fahid

    There are many reasons unfortunately. The main one is that most non-Muslims learn about Islam from anti-Islamic sites. So they come to Muslims with misconceptions or inaccurate information. There are some other problems like taking verses and
    3 prophetic traditions out of their linguistic and sometimes historical context.

    I disagree … I think most people learn about islam from the way muslims behave.. Actions deffinately speak louder than words… and if a group of muslims condone suicide bombing for example then this will colour the way non muslims view them…You can say islam is peaceful and kind until you are blue in the face but do the facts actually demonstrate this ?…

    ´as far as taking text out of historical context ´ isn´t this exactly the problem within Islam and why there are at least 70 different factions which diverge because of their own particular interpretation of the koran etc… if the muslim mullahs cant seem to agree then who can blame the non-muslim for their lack of understanding ??I have read the koran albeit in english and was quite disturbed by some of the statements made there …

    rulers and clerics, have often used religion to their advantage. As years passed, they have manipulated the ancient religions to the extent that their core beliefs have somewhat become corrupted.

    This is not helped when the followers are required to follow the faith without questioning . This makes them even more vulnerable to be exploited.

    You say you are not intolerant so maybe you can take the following intolerance test to see how you fare –

    1. Do you believe that men and women are equal in Gods sight ?

    2 Is it permissable for a man to ´discipline´ his wife by using physical force ?

    3.Do you believe that a muslim that leaves islam should be subject to death if he- she does not recant…

    4, What is your opinion on dhimmi´s

    Fahid I appreciate that you are a religious man and just trying to live out your nderstanding of God as best you can.I respect you for this and do not judge you but merely point out that the ideology we subsribe to will colour the way we view the world and the way we respond to our fellow man. Your understanding of the character of God is coloured by your particular religon just as mine is. The question is does our understanding lead to true peace and justice in this troubled world or does it just contribute more to the chaos and disorder .. ?

  78. Ali says:

    but merely point out that the ideology we subsribe to will colour the way we view the world and the way we respond to our fellow man. Your understanding of the character of God is coloured by your particular religon just as mine is.

    V.

    Unfortunately as a non muslim you have the ability to take off your rose tinted glasses and so are able to see the reality of truth which will bring you a life time of disappointement in the human predicament, whereas Muslims cannot take off their green tinted glasses and are thus spared this misery.

    You see, they simply do not care about humanity they just believe in their Allah (swt)and blindly obey like machines.

    There are a few of us who think outside the confines of the software we were programmed with in early childhood and aree spreading the new message which is simply that ” it doesn’t have to be this way”

    Not all muslims are mindless machines but I havn’t found many who aren’t – there aren’t many of us who are independent thinkers.

  79. Farid says:

    Your arguments remind me of an old atheist vs. Christian circular argument:

    Christian: “The Bible is God’s word”

    Atheist: “How do you know?”

    Christian: “Because it says so in the Bible”.

    Haha! Thanks I enjoyed that. Well, I do agree with you here. When discussing religion with atheists, logic should be used.

    The question is does our understanding lead to true peace and justice in this troubled world or does it just contribute more to the chaos and disorder .. ?

    Ah, this is refreshing. I sense some sincerity here in your post. Unfortunately, I’d rather not have this conversation in a blog with this many anti-Islamic individuals. It’s frustrating responding to more than one person at the same time.

    If you insist, I will respond to your posts here. But I’d rather do that via e-mail. Are you alright with that?

    There are a few of us who think outside the confines of the software we were programmed with in early childhood and aree spreading the new message which is simply that ” it doesn’t have to be this way”

    Not all muslims are mindless machines but I havn’t found many who aren’t – there aren’t many of us who are independent thinkers.

    Unlike you Ali, I come from a family that is very ignorant about their religion. I’m pretty much seen as a black sheep. I was originally programmed with a software that embraces secular values.

    I also agree that most Muslims are mindless machines. Yet, those are usually the secular ones. Conservative Muslims are a different case though. In fact, I was pretty much inspired by their search for truth. By the way, when I say “search”, I don’t mean growing up with what your parents spoon fed you. I’m talking about these people finding their own beliefs that they embraced by themselves.

  80. Jeremy says:

    Sorry to divert the topic again, but, Farid, where is the proof for:

    Those in power, like rulers and clerics, have often used religion to their advantage. As years passed, they have manipulated the ancient religions to the extent that their core beliefs have somewhat become corrupted. In it’s original form, the message of each of the religions were the same.

    I believe it’s highly improbable that God’s message was distorted to such a degree that the Torah and the Injil we have today do not resemble the Quran much at all. I know that’s what Islam says and the Quran says. What if I told you that terrorist wannabees shortly after Mohammad’s death added certain verses and traditions to support their violent desires? Of course, that would be heretical and even offensive. And I can tell you that your statements are perceived similarly by Christians.

    I like to say that it is difficult to tell someone like bin Laden, “That part about killing people who do not follow the version of Islam that you do, um, God didn’t really say that.” This is the danger, perhaps an extreme example, of following religion without reason.

  81. Anonny says:

    Farid,

    Ignoring all the social problems, here
    are examples of purely physical/medical
    issues concerning teenage pregnancies:-

    Research indicates that health risks
    are higher for infants growing within
    a teenage mother. This is because most
    teenage mother’s bodies are still
    developing themselves. When a baby is developing in a teenage mom the
    space for it s growth is limited. This
    is why so many teenagers give birth to premature babies. There is also a higher incidence of stillbirths. This was
    something I was taught at school so I
    don’t have ready references.

    ———–

    Children born to teen mothers suffer
    from higher rates of low birth weight
    and related health problems. The
    proportion of babies with low birth
    weights born to teens is 21 percent
    higher than the proportion for mothers
    age 20-24.8 Low birth weight raises the probabilities of infant death, blindness, deafness, chronic respiratory problems,
    mental retardation, mental illness, and cerebral palsy. In addition, low birth
    weight doubles the chances that a child
    will later be diagnosed as having
    dyslexia, hyperactivity, or another
    disability.

    Maynard, R.A. (Ed.). (1996). Kids Having Kids: A Robin Hood Foundation Special Report on the Costs of Adolescent Childbearing.

    —————–

    Later in life, adolescent mothers tend
    to be at greater risk for obesity and hypertension than women who were not
    teenagers when they had their first child.

    Brown, S., & Eisenberg, L. (Eds.)
    (1995). The Best Intentions: Unintended Pregnancy and the Well-Being of Children
    and Families.

    —————

    Researchers from the Johns Hopkins
    School of Public Health in Baltimore,
    Md., designed a study to investigate
    the efficiency of calcium absorption
    and changes in urinary calcium and
    hormone concentrations in girls. They
    studied a large group of girls aged
    thirteen to eighteen to determine how
    much of the calcium they took in food
    or as supplements was actually absorbed.
    They found that about one-third of the
    girls had signs of bone loss after
    pregnancy. Earlier age at first
    pregnancy has been linked to lower
    bone density later in life. Accumulating
    data has shown that bone loss is more significant in pregnant, growing
    adolescent girls when compared with
    pregnant, adult women. In addition,
    breast-feeding adolescents experience
    more bone loss than breast-feeding
    adults.

    found this through Google

    Now, there are many social issues too.
    Education is one. It’s harder – much harder –
    for teenage mothers to reach a high level of
    education – but then if they’re just baby
    machines I guess that doesn’t matter. In
    industrialized societies teenage mothers
    need more health care and are therefore more
    of a drain on that society’s resources.
    There’s also the issue of immature girls
    having to be responsible for children,
    although that wouldn’t be a problem in a
    suitably supportive social structure.

    No: I should think that the purely medical
    issues are enough to prove a point. But
    hey, this kind of research just ain’t in
    your Good Book, is it? So I guess it can be ignored by you. I wonder if you’ll feel the
    same way once you have daughters of your
    own.

  82. Anonny says:

    Lordy, my formatting is awful. Sorry about that.

  83. mahmood says:

    the content is good though!

  84. Farid says:

    Jeremy —

    I believe it’s highly improbable that God’s message was distorted to such a degree that the Torah and the Injil we have today do not resemble the Quran much at all.

    Jeremy, you don’t need to be a Muslim to believe that the Old and New Testament have been distorted. Take five minutes from time and take a look at any of the many list of Biblical contradictions on the net. I also know Christians that admit that the Gospels contradict each other as well.

    Also, please take a look at the history of the Nicean Council. Their additions to Christianity shouldn’t be overlooked.

    I like to say that it is difficult to tell someone like bin Laden, “That part about killing people who do not follow the version of Islam that you do, um, God didn’t really say that.”

    Actually, there many Muslim scholars who have dedicated sermons to responding to Bin Laden. Plus, there are many books that refute his interpretations of the verses that uses to justify his actions.

    What if I told you that terrorist wannabees shortly after Mohammad’s death added certain verses and traditions to support their violent desires? Of course, that would be heretical and even offensive.

    I’ve read and heard too much against my religion to feel offended by such a statement. We would approach your criticisms without any hate whatsoever as long as you are criticizing Islam out of your own good will.

    ——–

    Anonny —

    This was
    something I was taught at school so I
    don’t have ready references.</
    blockquote>

    I’m sorry. I’ll respond to this after you have something to back it up.

    Maynard, R.A. (Ed.). (1996). Kids Having Kids: A Robin Hood Foundation Special Report on the Costs of Adolescent Childbearing.

    The article’s main focus is young teenage women that have been born out of wedlock and are NOT married. Most of these women are suffering from poverty.

    According to UNICEF, the main reason that causes light birthweight is the poor nutrition of the mother.

    The reason why light birthweights occur, according to Maynard is because of premature births. Yet, this isn’t something that is completely accepted by the scientific community.

    Please take a look at:

    http://www.tommys.org/pregnancy-information/problems-in-pregnancy/premature.htm

    Later in life, adolescent mothers tend
    to be at greater risk for obesity and hypertension than women who were not
    teenagers when they had their first child.

    Brown, S., & Eisenberg, L. (Eds.)
    (1995). The Best Intentions: Unintended Pregnancy and the Well-Being of Children
    and Families.

    …right. Can you please provide me a page number or something? It’s quite a lengthy book.

    By the way, did you read these articles? Most of their content has to do with social and economic points that don’t really have much to do with marriage.

    .

    Accumulating
    data has shown that bone loss is more significant in pregnant, growing
    adolescent girls when compared with
    pregnant, adult women. In addition,
    breast-feeding adolescents experience
    more bone loss than breast-feeding
    adults.
    – found this through Google.

    This doesn’t seem to be all that serious. Scroll down in the same article to find:

    The study authors concluded that pregnant teenagers may need to increase the recommended calcium dose to counterbalance the bone loss.

    A cup or two of milk a day should be able to battle the “many evils” of adolescent pregnancies.

    It’s harder – much harder –
    for teenage mothers to reach a high level of
    education…

    Eh? Why not?

    No: I should think that the purely medical
    issues are enough to prove a point. But
    hey, this kind of research just ain’t in
    your Good Book, is it? So I guess it can be ignored by you. I wonder if you’ll feel the
    same way once you have daughters of your
    own.

    You are right, the Qur’an doesn’t really talk much about early marriages much. Yet, the Qur’an doesn’t mention anything in specific about smoking. There is a very simple rule of thumb in Islam: Everything is originally permissible… unless there is a reason for prohibition. Pretty much any unhealthy action is prohibited. At the moment, I can’t think of any that are permissible and until you can prove that early pregnancies are unhealthy, I will stick with my view that there isn’t anything wrong with it.

    Victoria –

    and if a group of muslims condone suicide bombing for example then this will colour the way non muslims view them…You can say islam is peaceful and kind until you are blue in the face but do the facts actually demonstrate this ?…

    Victoria, you are apparently aware that there are many different sects within Islam. It is illogical to brand every Muslim a terrorist because of the actions the Khawarij.

    if the muslim mullahs cant seem to agree then who can blame the non-muslim for their lack of understanding ??I have read the koran albeit in english and was quite disturbed by some of the statements made there …

    This one is simple enough. We should all refer to the understandings of Mohammed (pbuh) and those that were around him and the times of the revelations. Non-Muslims should do the same instead of drawing up conclusions on the meanings of the Qur’an that are based on their own individual experiences.

    This is not helped when the followers are required to follow the faith without questioning . This makes them even more vulnerable to be exploited.

    I’m not sure what you mean by followers being required to follow the faith without questioning. Can you define questioning? Do you mean without questioning if a religious ruling is correct or false? If so, then they do question matters of jurisprudence. The concept of ijtihad is very common in the Islamic world.

    You say you are not intolerant so maybe you can take the following intolerance test to see how you fare –
    1. Do you believe that men and women are equal in Gods sight ?
    2 Is it permissable for a man to ´discipline´ his wife by using physical force ?
    3.Do you believe that a muslim that leaves islam should be subject to death if he- she does not recant…
    4, What is your opinion on dhimmi´s

    1. No, men and women are NOT equal. They shouldn’t be treated equally, but they should be treated fairly. The reason is that men and women are different. They are different physically and mentally. I’m not saying that one is better than the other, but what I am saying is that they are different. Period. This point of view is also taken by many non-Muslims today, particularly those that oppose feminism.
    2. It depends on what you mean by physical force. It is forbidden to cause any broken bones or bruises upon a wife. It is also forbidden for a man to hit his wife on the face.
    3. Yes, an apostate that leaves Islam should be put to death. Yet, only those that announce it in order to hurt the religion. Similarly, a verse can be found in Deuteronomy 12… or was it 13…? In any case, if this is intolerance, then the God of the Old Testament is intolerant as well.
    4. What is my opinion of them in what sense?

    Phew!

    That took quite a while. Anyways, I think I’m going to take a break from coming here for a while.

    For those of you who are just looking for a place to attack Islam, then I’m sure that this blog as well as many other forums on the net should be perfect for you.

    However…

    Those of you with sincere questions/criticisms please e-mail me at f_alkhajah@hotmail.com

  85. Anonny says:

    This was
    something I was taught at school so I
    don’t have ready references.

    I’m sorry. I’ll respond to this after you have something to back it up.

    You are being obtuse. This one is about
    premature births in young girls – a very
    well known phenomenon with stats all over
    the world. Surely UNICEF has this one
    covered. Ask an experienced obstetrician
    if you don’t accept it from me.

    This doesn’t seem to be all that serious. Scroll down in the same article to find:

    The study authors concluded that pregnant teenagers may need to increase the recommended calcium dose to counterbalance the bone loss.

    A cup or two of milk a day should be able to battle the “many evils” of adolescent pregnancies.

    Your sarcasm aside, you don’t seem to
    take osteoporosis very seriously. And
    no, the milk won’t necessarily do it
    if, as sometimes happens, calcium is
    depleted faster than the young body
    can accumulate it. Why take the chance?

    Later in life, adolescent mothers tend
    to be at greater risk for obesity and hypertension than women who were not
    teenagers when they had their first child.

    Brown, S., & Eisenberg, L. (Eds.)
    (1995). The Best Intentions: Unintended Pregnancy and the Well-Being of Children
    and Families.

    …right. Can you please provide me a page number or something? It’s quite a lengthy book.

    By the way, did you read these articles? Most of their content has to do with social and economic points that don’t really have much to do with marriage.

    Well, marriage is about children, in the
    final analysis, and I’m focussing on that
    issue. I’m well aware that 50-year old
    Muslim satyrs in countries like Saudi,
    Pakistan and Iran will continue to
    marry girls younger than 15 and that
    you think this is fine. But they’ll
    also continue to impregnate them
    and that ain’t right, however much you
    may like it. Did you know that as men
    age over 40, the amount of abnormal
    sperm cells per ejaculate increases?
    Perhaps men shouldn’t be fertilizing
    too late in their lives either.

    Regarding the obesity and hypertension
    later in life, should we worry about
    the fine details when it’s such a clearly
    observable phenomenon? It happens at an
    age when they’ve clearly gotten over any
    anxieties or stigma, so it’s at least
    partially attributable to physical
    problems.

    For those of you who are just looking for a place to attack Islam, then I’m sure that this blog as well as many other forums on the net should be perfect for you.

    Now you’re just being petulant. I think
    that however knowledgeable and well-read
    you may be, you are not so wise. You also appear to have very little regard for
    female welfare.

    Now I know that in the fundamentalist mind,
    anything less than submission is
    to be considered a form of attack, but it
    was not my intention to attack your religion.
    It’s my intention to demonstrate that
    perhaps teenage girls should be left to
    ripen a little longer? (I’m trying to use
    language that your more hebephilic brethren
    will understand). Knocking ’em up early
    causes unnecessary suffering the world over.
    It’s telling that as soon as women gain
    control over their bodies in the form
    of the right and the ability to obtain
    contraception, the average age of first
    pregnancy increases. That’s the decision
    that women make for themselves – and
    their bodies are their own – not yours,
    mine or some unsavoury old greybeard’s.

    How old are you, anyway?

  86. Farid says:

    This one is about
    premature births in young girls – a very
    well known phenomenon with stats all over
    the world. Surely UNICEF has this one
    covered. Ask an experienced obstetrician
    if you don’t accept it from me.

    If it’s so well known then you wouldn’t have any trouble sending me a link or two.

    And no, the milk won’t necessarily do it if, as sometimes happens, calcium is
    depleted faster than the young body
    can accumulate it. Why take the chance?

    There are benefits to getting married young you know…

    I’m not a doctor or anything, so I can’t really speak of the dangers of osteoporosis. Though, the article that you quoted is what suggested an increase of calcium intake.

    But they’ll
    also continue to impregnate them
    and that ain’t right, however much you
    may like it. Did you know that as men
    age over 40, the amount of abnormal
    sperm cells per ejaculate increases?
    Perhaps men shouldn’t be fertilizing
    too late in their lives either.

    So, old men impregnating young women isn’t right? According to what? There is no universal rule against it. In some places, this is considered to be pedophelia, where in other places it is completely accepted.

    If the husband and wife want it and their parents don’t have a problem with it. Then sure, why not?! The media disliking it doesn’t make it immoral either.

    Men over fourty shouldn’t have sex then? That is… interesting.

    Regarding the obesity and hypertension later in life, should we worry about the fine details when it’s such a clearly
    observable phenomenon?

    Unfortunately, I don’t know any young mothers that are suffering from obesity or hypertention. Can you please provide me with the page number?

    You also appear to have very little regard for female welfare.

    Where did that come from?

    Now I know that in the fundamentalist mind,
    anything less than submission is
    to be considered a form of attack, but it
    was not my intention to attack your religion.

    If you hadn’t noticed I was referring to a post I made earlier to Mahmood about the amount of anti-Islamic posts in his blog. My statement wasn’t directed at you, even though you have implied quite a few times that my beliefs are backwards.

    It’s my intention to demonstrate that perhaps teenage girls should be left to
    ripen a little longer? (I’m trying to use
    language that your more hebephilic brethren
    will understand). Knocking ‘em up early
    causes unnecessary suffering the world over.

    I’m glad that your intentions are in the right place, but you really need to work on your attitude. Friendly advice will usually get rejected if you’re not being sincere.

    Also, “the world” suffering from this problem is an overstatement. Even in the most conservative Islamic communities, it is rare for really young women to get married.

    That’s the decision
    that women make for themselves – and
    their bodies are their own – not yours,
    mine or some unsavoury old greybeard’s.

    Agreed.

    I’m surprised you even brought that up. Saying something as extreme as that makes me feel like you were expecting me to argue that women’s bodies aren’t their own.

    How old are you, anyway?

    I’m twenty one. Why do you ask?

    If you don’t mind me asking, where did you get your information about Islam?

  87. @ Farid:

    That’s the decision
    that women make for themselves – and
    their bodies are their own – not yours,
    mine or some unsavoury old greybeard’s.

    Agreed.

    If you agree that it should be the womens decision: Do you believe a 15 year old girl is free to decide when and whom she will marry?

    She is not. And I have a 15 yr. old sister, I may ask her if you want. First, she would not want to, second, it would not be her decision but her parents. Even here, in a very liberal society.

    Btw., you’re 21. Do you remember being 15? A boy of 15 years? I do. Isn’t much time since then, I have to admit. What would you have thought if your parents would have come telling you you’re getting married to a 50 year old woman?

  88. mahmood says:

    I’m twenty one. Why do you ask?

    He didn’t have to ask because we all already knew that. It is quite evident from your black or white mind.

    But there is hope, son, you’re still young.

  89. victoria says:

    . No, men and women are NOT equal. They shouldn’t be treated equally, but they should be treated fairly. The reason is that men and women are different. They are different physically and mentally. I’m not saying that one is better than the other, but what I am saying is that they are different. Period. This point of view is also taken by many non-Muslims today, particularly those that oppose feminism.

    I believe you mean that they ARE equal but NOT the same… ? equal means that they have equal value and should have an equal chance to be educated and to make decisions for themselves without a husband or parent FORCING their will on them (whether verbally or physically) Of course the society you propose would reflect this then ?

    2. It depends on what you mean by physical force. It is forbidden to cause any broken bones or bruises upon a wife. It is also forbidden for a man to hit his wife on the face.

    Why would it be forbidden to hit on the face then anywhere else on the body ? why would a physically stronger man have to hit an adult women ever ?? purely because he is bigger and stronger I suppose.? To force her to submit to him perhaps… I can see how could such an attitude as this could develop when grown men are allowed to marry children (with or without puberty a young girl is still a child emotionallly)and therefore dominate them mentally and physically…

    3. Yes, an apostate that leaves Islam should be put to death. Yet, only those that announce it in order to hurt the religion. Similarly, a verse can be found in Deuteronomy 12… or was it 13…? In any case, if this is intolerance, then the God of the Old Testament is intolerant as well.

    Wow Fahid I am surprise you don´t blush by saying this 😳 Why would anyone have the right to murder another for deciding to hold different beliefs ?? What kind of God do you serve ? you say only those that announce it publicly .. so it is better for someone to live their new faith in secret and not tell anyone …. so you would force them to become hypocrites in other words….?

    4. What is my opinion of them in what sense?

    do you agree with this attitude to non – believers ?

    The colour of your religious glasses are very
    dark… to me.. Those that do not fit the shade or hue you have chosen doen´t have equal rights to yourself…

    I believe that freedom is the greatest gift God has given humankind… this means the freedom to reject him if they choose to even though this grieves him greatly. ..He wants us to choose him because we want to not because we are forced by another to do so….

    A person who takes away anothers freedom to choose what they believe is usurping Gods authority. We will all have to stand in front the throne of God and give an account for the way we behaved and treated others while living on here on earth . Even our atheists friends who deny Gods existence will not be able to avoid this appointment …. God always gets the last word…

  90. victoria says:

    sorry I messed up the quotes again 😥

  91. Ali says:

    Wow Fahid I am surprise you don´t blush by saying this Why would anyone have the right to murder another for deciding to hold different beliefs ?? What kind of God do you serve ? you say only those that announce it publicly .. so it is better for someone to live their new faith in secret and not tell anyone …. so you would force them to become hypocrites in other words….?

    From what I am reading on this thread I had better keep silent about choosing to become a non believer. Anyhow there are so many of us now who don’t believe it seems no point in keeping it secret anymore. What is the point about being a Muslim? No one can answer why we should continue – and until someone comes along and tells us ( which he won’t because the last one closed the door before he left)we are stuck in a time warp.

  92. Ethan says:

    Also, please take a look at the history of the Nicean Council. Their additions to Christianity shouldn’t be overlooked.

    You, Farid, should look at the Othmanic reclension. It’s right there in the Hadith Bukhari – The first Caliph called together all of the oral historians and put together the Koran from the ‘best’ verses. There is even mention of a missing verse about stoning women.

    If that’s not corruption, nothing is. Compared to that, the tiny differences in the Bible since the first century are negligible.

    And it’s right there in the Hadith. The whole house of cards depends on whether the caliph chose correctly. And last I checked, the caliph was a man. Men can lie.

  93. victoria says:

    From what I am reading on this thread I had better keep silent about choosing to become a non believer. Anyhow there are so many of us now who don’t believe it seems no point in keeping it secret anymore. What is the point about being a Muslim? No one can answer why we should continue – and until someone comes along and tells us ( which he won’t because the last one closed the door before he left)we are stuck in a time warp.


    @Ali
    I can understand your frustration but don´t let the imperfections of humans deter you from your search for truth… we have an intellect to question things , this is good but we also have a spirit. Our spirit (the invisible part of who we are) longs for reconciliation with the being from whom we have our origins..This being (God ) will make sure that if you genuinely want to know Him you will find Him.

  94. Ethan says:

    Victoria’s comment on faith and truth got me thinking. From my own beliefs, the search for truth does not depend on human revealed books. In a way, it is the true monotheism.

    The Great Architect does not require faith to know him. To understand the universe is to see the mind of God.

    God never has and never will speak through a human. The Architect speaks through his creation. Through reason and science we seek to understand the universe, and through that understand the mind and meaning of God.

    Any ‘revealed’ religion is no more than a human appropriating God for their own philosophy.

  95. dsa says:

    @mahmood

    From what I understand from your posts on this topic you support separation of state and religion, in other words some rules that are said in the Quran should not be applied because it seems that you using your own logic you can come up with better laws than God himself.

    2:30 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: “I will create a vicegerent on earth.” They said: “Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?” He said: “I know what ye know not.”

    2:31 And He taught Adam the nature of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: “Tell me the nature of these if ye are right.”

    2:32 They said: “Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom.”

    2:33 He said: “O Adam! Tell them their natures.” When he had told them, Allah said: “Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?”

    Do you still believe your logic can come up with better laws? If you still insist on that how can you call yourself a muslim, because a muslim believes everything in the Quran yet you would only believe part of it.

    2:85 After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancour; and if they come to you as captives, ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.

    And you kept saying that circumstances 1400 years ago are different than circumstances now and therefore your logic then tells you that some religious laws don’t apply now.

    21:107 We sent thee not, but as a Mercy for all creatures.

    So if God sent the Prophet PBUH as mercy for everyone don’t you think he would have considered that circumstances would change from the time he sent the Prophet PBUH until the judgment day?

    6:73 It is He who created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): the day He saith, “Be,” behold! it is. His word is the truth. His will be the dominion the day the trumpet will be blown. He knoweth the unseen as well as that which is open. For He is the Wise, well acquainted (with all things).

    So Mahmood if you claim to be a muslim then you must believe in the Quran and you must abide with its rules.

    He didn’t have to ask because we all already knew that. It is quite evident from your black or white mind.

    But there is hope, son, you’re still young.

    Even though he is still young his logic far exceeds yours, at least he knows if he is a muslim he must believe in the Quran, yet you are a muslim but you don’t believe in some parts of it and yet claim what you are doing is right(e.g. seperation of state and religion = not applying some rules that are stated in the quran). And if you want to know what that means scroll up my post and look at the bolded part in 2:85.

    -DSA

  96. mahmood says:

    Typical.

    I think Ash’s comment applies to you too. Now don’t throw the Quran at me, I know all 114 chapters, 30 parts, 6,616 ayas, 77,943 words constituting 338,606 letters and I fully and unequivocally believe in their spirit. I don’t need your confirmation or lack thereof of my Islam and my subscription to the religion. That – as much as you like – is not up to you.

    I don’t need your help by quoting verbatim what’s in it. So don’t waste your breath.

    Now get over it and get back with the program.

    If you want to engage your brain and debate with me without bringing in religious texts to support your argument, then I sure will entertain you. But something tells me that much like our young kid, that would be a wasted effort.

  97. Anonny says:

    I’m glad that your intentions are in the right place, but you really need to work on your attitude.

    Why? My opinions have been tested by years
    of experience in many different communities.
    You don’t like my attitude? Tough.

    Friendly advice will usually get rejected if you’re not being sincere.

    So? I’m being honest. You discern that or
    you don’t.

    Also, “the world” suffering from this problem is an overstatement. Even in the most conservative Islamic communities, it is rare for really young women to get married.

    It’s not an understatement. And it’s not
    that rare. I’ve seen it often enough in
    the Khaleej, for goodness’ sake.

    That’s the decision
    that women make for themselves – and
    their bodies are their own – not yours,
    mine or some unsavoury old greybeard’s.

    I’m surprised you even brought that up. Saying something as extreme as that makes me feel like you were expecting me to argue that women’s bodies aren’t their own.

    No, I was referring to the greybeards
    arguing against the government’s decision.
    As far as I know, it doesn’t say in some
    book somewhere that women’s bodies are not
    their own, so it’s not going to be a point
    you’ll argue ;^)

    I’m twenty one. Why do you ask?

    Just out of University! No wonder you’re
    choosing text over life experience when
    formulating an opinion.

    Well, kiddo, You talk a good game, but
    you have yet to understand much that’s
    real. Still rebelling against
    Mum & Dad and their embarrassing secularism?
    Why don’t you go your own way instead of
    being their mirror? You could choose
    autonomy over rebellion, you know.

    In case you think I’m being harsh, allow
    me to say that against the backdrop of
    Knocking-Shop-Thursday-Night-Mosque-Friday
    young Bahraini men you are looking very good,
    so don’t think I have no respect for you.

    If you don’t mind me asking, where did you get your information about Islam?

    Muslims first, then an English translation
    of the Qur’an. I’ve been dipping into the
    Qur’an for almost as long as you’ve been
    alive and I have Bahraini Muslim relatives
    who’ve been slowly teaching me for well over
    a decade. There’s much that’s good in Islam,
    but, as I said in a previous post, in its
    pure form there is not so much implicit
    value placed in the individual. And I’m
    too old and set in my ways to change certain
    things that your religion proscribes.

    Anyway, enough of my frailties. I remember
    being an opinionated 21-year old. I’d love
    to be one again. Get off this blog and do
    something else. The world is yours,
    seriously.

  98. dsa says:

    I fully and unequivocally believe in their spirit.

    Then how can you support separation of state and religion? Because if you support this idea then you are either lying about what you say (when you say you believe in the Quran and I hope you aren’t) or you aren’t lying, and you believe in the Quran yet you still go against its sayings (and you know you’re wrong).

    And the reason I brought the Quran verses is so you understand why supporting separation of state and religion is basically going against what the Quran says, and since you’re a muslim you wouldn’t support this idea.

    And now going back to the original topic, if you carefully read the al wasat newspaper article none of this discussion would have been necessary. The cleric Mohahmed Sangoor said that these rules cannot be imposed unless they were imposed by Islam, and the government are not allowed to impose those kind of rules since they were not imposed by Islam. Yet what Mohamed Sangoor fails to notice is that the only reason the government is imposing this rule is to avoid families marrying off their daughters at a young age and take advantage of that, and this age limit can be overruled by a judge in special cases, so how can this be against Islam?

    A similar example to this case is Hajj, back in the Prophet’s PBUH days anyone can go to Hajj without any problem, but now a person who is going to Hajj (like from Bahrain) must go with an authorized campaign and can’t go by himself. This rule was set by Saudi Arabia for many reasons including the person’s safety. So how come this doesn’t go against Islamic rules and the topic about marriage does? Do you get what I mean?

  99. mahmood says:

    Yes I do get what you mean, in that – using your own example – Islam is not static and can and does respond to current situations, as such, separating religion from running a country and leaving it to service an individual’s spiritual needs would elevate it into the stature it once enjoyed, specifically in both the Prophet’s days and then later on in what has been termed the ‘Golden Age’ of Islam.

    I am glad that we are finally in agreement.

  100. dsa says:

    Well you still seem to miss the point of my example, there was no islamic law stating that anyone can go to Hajj if he wishes to, just like there was no islamic law stating that there is no minimum age to marriage. Thus this wouldn’t support the idea that state must be separated from religion because the government isn’t going against the religions’ laws. I hope you understand this and stop supporting the idea that state should be separated from religion because you would be going against what the Quran says (which you admit to believe in).

  101. Ethan says:

    I prefer this explaination, dsa (and others).

    According to the Koran, if Allah wishes it, it is done.

    If Allah wishes that the Koran be put aside and separated from politics, then he would allow it to be so – calling new prophets to that end.

    See, Allah is capricious. He abrogates whatever he wills. Who is to say that the Bah’ai was not Allah’s abrogation of Islam?

    You can’t. The Koran supports the idea that Allah changes his mind. Mohammed doesn’t even have to be the last prophet! Sure, the Koran says so, but Allah may have realized that he chose the wrong one, and sent down other prophets to other peoples. Certainly, because Allah has abrogated before, there is nothing to prevent his further abrogation of things. It is only mankind who stubbornly keeps to a book that has since been abrogated.

    So, in a sense, Islam allows for its own negation – with a bit of itjihad. It is the only monotheistic religion that allows for its deity to create a stone that he cannot lift.

  102. mahmood says:

    dsa, don’t do an Asalah on me and go back on your word.

    To me, as you have put in a way, it is a matter of interpretation, so would you accept that my point of view and interpretation could – even in a minute part – be as correct as yours? If so, then just accept that there are other interpretations of this issue that opposes yours and could be just as valid.

    If, on the other hand, your interpretation is so rigid as to not accept me and my views, then let’s just agree to disagree and He will judge in the end.

    I am pretty certain that He will stand by the view that religion has no place in the day-to-day running of the state. It’s been tried after all for the last 1400 years or so and history shows what a dismal failure that scenario is.

  103. Farid says:

    Simon Columbus:

    If you agree that it should be the womens decision: Do you believe a 15 year old girl is free to decide when and whom she will marry?

    Yes, she does. It goes without saying that the person she has her eye on needs to agree though. Also, the parents of both the future husband and wife play a key part in whether or not this marriage should happen.

    Btw., you’re 21. Do you remember being 15? A boy of 15 years? I do. Isn’t much time since then, I have to admit. What would you have thought if your parents would have come telling you you’re getting married to a 50 year old woman?

    I would tell them that I don’t want to… and it wouldn’t matter if she was young or old. Likewise, a daughter has the choice of not getting married. In Islam, an arranged marriage isn’t as “arranged” as it sounds. The couple does have a choice.
    Mahmood:

    He didn’t have to ask because we all already knew that. It is quite evident from your black or white mind.
    But there is hope, son, you’re still young.

    Age doesn’t have anything to do with the way I think. I’m not sure if you are aware that the Prophet (pbuh) used to listen to the views of even teenagers before making major decisions. I believe that Ali (raa) was in charge at Khaibar and he was only eighteen.
    Victoria:

    Why would it be forbidden to hit on the face then anywhere else on the body ? why would a physically stronger man have to hit an adult women ever ?? purely because he is bigger and stronger I suppose.? To force her to submit to him perhaps… I can see how could such an attitude as this could develop when grown men are allowed to marry children (with or without puberty a young girl is still a child emotionallly)and therefore dominate them mentally and physically…

    I think you’re drawing too many parallels to cases of domestic violence today. “Wife beating” in Islam isn’t supposed to inflict any type of pain.

    Please take a look at what Abdul-Lateef Al Mahmud had to say regarding this subject. The video is a minute long. http://youtube.com/watch?v=Wp3Eam5FX58

    Wow Fahid I am surprise you don´t blush by saying this Why would anyone have the right to murder another for deciding to hold different beliefs ?? What kind of God do you serve ? you say only those that announce it publicly .. so it is better for someone to live their new faith in secret and not tell anyone …. so you would force them to become hypocrites in other words….?

    I honestly don’t find any shame in this. When soldiers commit treason they are put through the same. They are executed. Similarly, this practice is the same law that God authorized in the Old Testament. I can even argue that Christ would have practiced this if he ever had the chance to.

    Are you a Christian by the way?

    Anyways, hypocrites aren’t killed. Nobody is punished for what is in their hearts, in this life. Preachers that preach for money instead of God are hypocrites, but they will not be punished in this life.

    do you agree with this attitude to non – believers ?

    What attitude? You’re being too vague. What about dhimmis?

    I believe that freedom is the greatest gift God has given humankind… this means the freedom to reject him if they choose to even though this grieves him greatly. ..He wants us to choose him because we want to not because we are forced by another to do so….

    Once again, there is a huge difference between rejecting Him after accepting Him and rejecting Him from the start.

    Even our atheists friends who deny Gods existence will not be able to avoid this appointment ….

    I find it strange that you would refer to atheists as friends. God has prepared hell for those that denied Him, yet, you call them friends.

    Ethan:

    You, Farid, should look at the Othmanic reclension. It’s right there in the Hadith Bukhari – The first Caliph called together all of the oral historians and put together the Koran from the ‘best’ verses. There is even mention of a missing verse about stoning women.
    If that’s not corruption, nothing is. Compared to that, the tiny differences in the Bible since the first century are negligible.
    And it’s right there in the Hadith. The whole house of cards depends on whether the caliph chose correctly. And last I checked, the caliph was a man. Men can lie.

    I’m aware of the verse of stoning Ethan. I’m sure the following will be interesting to you:

    Al Baqara – 106: “Such of Our revelations as We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?

    Abrogation only occurred during the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh). Many times in the Qur’an, Allah (swt) challenges the pagans to come up with verses. Yet, due to the linguistic complexity of the Qur’an, which doesn’t fall into neither prose nor poetry, the unbelievers weren’t able to. So, in response, they said, “Bring us a different Qur’an,” as a sort of challenge. In response to this, Allah (swt) abrogated some verses from the Qur’an and replaced them with new ones, as mentioned in the verse above. One of these verses was the verse of stoning.

    Also, the Caliph could have lied. But, he was surrounded by hundreds, at least, that knew the Qur’an by heart. Similarly, the Arabs used to memorize poetry before the Qur’an, so it wasn’t much of a task to memorize it in its entirety. Even today, there are thousands of non-Arabs that memorize the Qur’an in India, Pakistan, and Indonesia and they can’t speak a word of Arabic. So, it would’ve been pretty impossible for the Caliph to deceive all of those people like that.

    Victoria:

    From what I am reading on this thread I had better keep silent about choosing to become a non believer. Anyhow there are so many of us now who don’t believe it seems no point in keeping it secret anymore. What is the point about being a Muslim? No one can answer why we should continue – and until someone comes along and tells us ( which he won’t because the last one closed the door before he left)we are stuck in a time warp.

    I’m sorry Victoria; I didn’t quite get that post. Would you mind rephrasing it?

    Mahmood:

    Now don’t throw the Quran at me, I know all 114 chapters, 30 parts, 6,616 ayas, 77,943 words constituting 338,606 letters and I fully and unequivocally believe in their spirit.

    Mahmood, it doesn’t matter how many words or letters belong in the Qur’an if you don’t follow them. Your googling skills are impressive… but your Islamic knowledge contradicts even the most basic teachings.
    Anonny:

    It’s not an understatement. And it’s not
    that rare. I’ve seen it often enough in
    the Khaleej, for goodness’ sake.

    To be honest, I’m not familiar with anyone in the past fifty years getting married to someone younger. Can you provide us with some statistics?

    Well, kiddo, You talk a good game, but
    you have yet to understand much that’s
    real. Still rebelling against
    Mum & Dad and their embarrassing secularism?
    Why don’t you go your own way instead of
    being their mirror? You could choose
    autonomy over rebellion, you know.

    It’s funny to see how much you think you know me because I shared a couple of things about myself. Anonny, I wish you would tell us more about yourself so that I can formulize a few generalizations of who you are. You can start of with sharing a name. You can many tell us a bit about where you stand when it comes to your religious philosophy. I’m getting tired of not knowing who I’m up against.

    Muslims first, then an English translation
    of the Qur’an. I’ve been dipping into the
    Qur’an for almost as long as you’ve been
    alive and I have Bahraini Muslim relatives
    who’ve been slowly teaching me for well over
    a decade.

    Well that’s a surprise. I thought you just looked up anti-Islamic websites with links to articles about early pregnancies that you never bothered to read.
    But seriously, it doesn’t really show.
    Ethan:

    If Allah wishes that the Koran be put aside and separated from politics, then he would allow it to be so – calling new prophets to that end.
    See, Allah is capricious. He abrogates whatever he wills. Who is to say that the Bah’ai was not Allah’s abrogation of Islam?
    You can’t. The Koran supports the idea that Allah changes his mind. Mohammed doesn’t even have to be the last prophet! Sure, the Koran says so, but Allah may have realized that he chose the wrong one, and sent down other prophets to other peoples. Certainly, because Allah has abrogated before, there is nothing to prevent his further abrogation of things. It is only mankind who stubbornly keeps to a book that has since been abrogated.

    Hmm… This is going to get tricky, please bear with me.
    First of all, Allah (swt) is omniscient. If Allah (swt) is omniscient, then that includes Him knowing the future. Technically, He doesn’t ever change His mind. He knows that He is going to change some rules. Before Islam, when Allah (swt) places these rules, He never says that they are set into stone until the end of time. Of course, until the verse:
    The Table Spread 3 : “…This day I have perfected your religion for you and completed My favour onto you, and have chosen for you as your religion Al-Islam…”
    After this verse, there were no new rulings that were made in Islam.

    So, in a sense, Islam allows for its own negation – with a bit of itjihad. It is the only monotheistic religion that allows for its deity to create a stone that he cannot lift.

    Ethan, if you are going to try to attack Islam, then I suggest that you read the books of its scholars instead of looking up anti-Islamic articles that are written by people that cannot ever read Arabic.
    Please refer to ANY aqeedah book. Your conception of what Allah (swt) is conflicts with Islam if you’re going to bring up riddles like that.
    Mahmood:

    I am pretty certain that He will stand by the view that religion has no place in the day-to-day running of the state. It’s been tried after all for the last 1400 years or so and history shows what a dismal failure that scenario is.

    I’m sure that it was a failure in your eyes. I’m also quite certain that Mohammed (pbuh) was a failure in your eyes as well.
    Mahmood, you are the first Muslim I meet that doesn’t want people to use the Qur’an when they have an argument.
    This is Allah’s (swt) response to your absurdity:
    Women – 59: “O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end.”
    Allah (swt) says: “refer it to Allah”
    Mahmood says: “debate with me without bringing in religious texts” POST 96
    The Cow – 41: “The month of Ramadan in which was revealed the Qur’an, a guidance for mankind…”
    Once again Mahmood, it doesn’t matter if you know how many letters are in the Qur’an. It is about practicing what Allah (swt) tells you to practice. Now, instead of dodging questions, like you’ve done for the past week or so, please answer this simple question:
    Is the Qur’an a book of guidance or not?

  104. mahmood says:

    I wish you would put the same effort, or even a little less, in giving people the credit of choice. But your black and white young mind is not ready for that yet. I’m not going to debate with you because there is no point, yet.

    But let me first put something to rest here, and again I don’t think anyone will take too much offence here owing to your inexperience and age:

    Age doesn’t have anything to do with the way I think. I’m not sure if you are aware that the Prophet (pbuh) used to listen to the views of even teenagers before making major decisions. I believe that Ali (raa) was in charge at Khaibar and he was only eighteen.

    You ain’t Ali, Farid. You never will even approach his shadow or one of his discarded nail clippings, so don’t go comparing yourself with him or any of the 4 kholafa’, you are just not worth it and never will be.

    Now go and do something constructive with your life.

  105. Farid says:

    You don’t need to delete me. I’m off.

    Avoid my questions if it will help you sleep better at night.

    Peace.

  106. Ethan says:

    Abrogation only occurred during the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh). Many times in the Qur’an, Allah (swt) challenges the pagans to come up with verses. Yet, due to the linguistic complexity of the Qur’an, which doesn’t fall into neither prose nor poetry,

    No offense intended, but it does fall into the box of ‘madness’, given the number of verses of the Koran that are nonsensical in Arabic (but sensical in Syraic).

    the unbelievers weren’t able to. So, in response, they said, “Bring us a different Qur’an,” as a sort of challenge. In response to this, Allah (swt) abrogated some verses from the Qur’an and replaced them with new ones, as mentioned in the verse above. One of these verses was the verse of stoning.

    Do you even listen to yourself? In response to the challenge of the unbelievers, Allah changed his book. I thought Allah was dooming those poor bastards to hellfire and ordering true Muslims to kill, convert or humiliate them?

    Apparently, Allah’s pretty nice about changing the rules hen asked. Here goes:

    Allah, hey, bring me a new book that supports human rights and the freedom and equality of the sexes and races in all things, such that people would be free to do and believe as they will.

    Also, the Caliph could have lied. But, he was surrounded by hundreds, at least, that knew the Qur’an by heart.

    Which Koran? “The Qur’an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it that which is easier for you. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.510).”

    Similarly, the Arabs used to memorize poetry before the Qur’an, so it wasn’t much of a task to memorize it in its entirety.

    You make it sound like that’s an impressive feat! Oral histories are found throughout the ancient world in many primitive societies.

    But then again, I thought the Koran wasn’t poetry or prose?

    Even today, there are thousands of non-Arabs that memorize the Qur’an in India, Pakistan, and Indonesia and they can’t speak a word of Arabic. So, it would’ve been pretty impossible for the Caliph to deceive all of those people like that.

    Actually, it’s pretty easy to deceive people when they don’t know the language. All those people are doing are memorizing sound patterns by rote. Any meaning to Islam is whatever the Imam tells them it is. Blind faith? Check. Loss of humanity? Check.

    The Caliph burned every possible variant Koran. He only picked the one that he liked, and even so, there are many hadith that refer to verses that no longer exist.

    Islam is ‘perfected’ because it says it is.

    But then again, it also says that believers should also read the Torah and Injil (which is an interesting book that never existed). But they shouldn’t because they are corrupted – in an abrogation to the previous verse.

    But if things are abrogated they are forgotten, right? So why are both verses in the Koran?

    Why are there different rules for alcohol in the Koran? Why not just one? For historical purposes? Allah certainly called a rough draft the ‘perfection’, eh?

  107. mahmood says:

    You don’t need to delete me. I’m off.

    Delete you? What for? You’re more than welcome to stay. I hope that you will in time find tolerance in your heart and mind to allow others to differ with you peacefully. Especially considering your chosen vocation in life which demands such practice.

  108. Anonny says:

    It’s funny to see how much you think you know me because I shared a couple of things about myself. Anonny, I wish you would tell us more about yourself so that I can formulize a few generalizations of who you are. You can start of with sharing a name. You can many tell us a bit about where you stand when it comes to your religious philosophy. I’m getting tired of not knowing who I’m up against.

    Fair enough: 40 year old English guy with
    no kids of his own who has suffered as an
    expat for being forthright with certain
    opinions and so now retains anonymity on
    blogs like this one.

    Religious philosophy? Ugh, do you have
    to call it that? Call me agnostic, if
    you must, but my ancestors were raised on
    that North-West European Protestant ethic
    that I’m sure you know about and words
    like “Immanence” hold a special meaning
    for me in meaning-of-life discussions with
    friends.

    The axe to grind about teenage pregnancies?
    Well, I’ve seen a few that should not have
    happened.

    “Up against” says it all, really. I think
    we’re done, don’t you? I’m not into games
    of firing references at each other until
    someone moans, “You sunk my battleship!”
    which almost never happens anyway. We’re
    not going to change each other’s opinion,
    I think.

  109. mahmood says:

    I’m getting tired of not knowing who I’m up against.

    Interesting.. because you are just as anonymous as you share only one name that could be anything you want it to be. If you want to play fair, declare your full identity to the people whom you are debating with, although not necessary, it would be nice to know.

  110. Anonny says:

    Mahmood, why should he? There are good
    reasons for anonymity on the net. One
    can be more forthright and honest in
    one’s opinions. I agree that “Farid”
    could be anyone really, but I’m not
    interested in getting to know the whole
    person. He might be any age, too. Bully
    for him.

    And as for playing fair, well, Farid …

    To be honest, I’m not familiar with anyone in the past fifty years getting married to someone younger. Can you provide us with some statistics?

    You ask me to cite references for every
    assertion I make, yet from you I don’t
    have a single one. I think you’ll find
    that Quran verses do not constitute
    workable medical knowledge. That’s why
    Muslims work so hard to send their kids
    to medical school. And you’re so quick
    to sneer at my Western education? Western
    health care enabled the Middle-Eastern
    population boom, sparky. That’s kaffir
    knowledge for you. Ask a Bahraini doctor
    old enough to remember. There are plenty
    around.

    This entire topic is supporting the
    government’s sensible decision not
    to listen to a bunch of extremists
    and actually create a sensible minimum
    age for marriage. If you don’t agree
    with that expressed premise, it’s up to you
    to come up with reliable data refuting
    that premise. You are the contrarian
    on this topic thread, after all.
    Where is your hard data or statistics
    proving to us that the government has
    made the wrong decision? Oh dang – they
    aren’t anywhere!

  111. Ethan says:

    And as for playing fair, well, Farid …

    To be honest, I’m not familiar with anyone in the past fifty years getting married to someone younger. Can you provide us with some statistics?

    You ask me to cite references for every
    assertion I make, yet from you I don’t
    have a single one.

    Well, I have some Wikipedia evidence:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_at_first_marriage

    Across the board, women marry younger than men. Which means that there are likely a lot of folks marrying younger people than themselves.

    C’mon, Farid, don’t let the Koran blind you to it’s own dictates; didn’t Mohammed say to read and learn?

  112. RG says:

    This post and discussion have been really informative. In the United States, we have the same rules as Germany and UK according to Ash and Simon regarding marriage age. I feel these rules are fine the way they are. I also agree with Mahmood, and many others that have commented, that fifteen is much too young for a girl to be married. She still has much to experience and find out about herself before becoming someone’s wife. Getting married is a huge commitment and should not be taken lightly at the age of fifteen, in my opinion. For some girls, it is their dream to marry early and have a huge family. I know some girls like this, and I see nothing wrong with that. It is all a matter of what the girl feels is right for her.

  113. Lynn says:

    RG,
    What age does the girl have to be in order to make life determining decisions? Isn’t that what this is all about? If that same girl wanted to vote for a president would you accept her vote even if she made the choice based on what felt right in her inexperienced head?

  114. AM says:

    the marriage of the Prophet (pbuh) to Aisha has been attacked pretty heavily, and it caused me to question the religion as well. however,
    this website : http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2005/the-young-marriage-of-aishah/

    answered all the answers for met atleast.

  115. Anonny says:

    Even the well-known critical Orientalist, W. Montgomery Watt, said the following about the Prophet’s moral character:

    From the standpoint of Muhammad’s time, then, the allegations of treachery and sensuality cannot be maintained. His contemporaries did not find him morally defective in any way. On the contrary, some of the acts criticized by the modern Westerner show that Muhammad’s standards were higher than those of his time.8

    Aside from the fact that no one was displeased with him or his actions, he was a paramount example of moral character in his society and time. Therefore, to judge the Prophet’s morality based on the standards of our society and culture today is not only absurd, but also unfair.

    Thanks AM, I’m with you to a great extent.
    There’s no proof that the Prophet
    immediately jumped on pre-pubescent
    Aisha, and any charge of pedophilia
    clearly isn’t going to stick.

    Hebephilia, the consistent preference of
    the very young, is a Western-created
    category that makes September-May liaisons
    appear to be unnatural. They clearly are
    not, although their desirability is
    questionable.

    However, let me refer to the last sentence
    of the quote:-

    In days of old, Muslims hated being called
    “Mohammedan”. It was seen as an accusation
    of following the Christian error, of seeing
    the Prophet as a perfect being, a son of
    God, when he himself had clearly stated
    that he was just a man – and by extension
    possessing human flaws and inconsistencies.
    Hence, he was seen as a man of his time as
    well as an exemplary messenger.

    But as part of the new reactionary
    and extreme forms of Islamic interpretation,
    the prophet is seen as a vastly superior
    figure. The Shia seem to have taken this
    even further with the idea of fourteen
    infallible men who existed in the world.
    (Correct me if I’m wrong or being offensive
    here.) Thus, when people say he took a
    little girl to bed, it’s immediately
    accepted without a moment’s thought and
    then fanatically defended and seen as
    a perfect form of practice for all people
    in all parts of the world for all time!

    You know, that old word “Mohammedan” may
    come to have some currency after all.
    Or “Ali-an”, if you will. People are
    becoming more extreme in their devotion
    to and elevation of certain figures.
    I don’t think it was always like this.

    Anyway, this rambling post is basically
    an acceptance of what the Prophet did,
    coupled with my awareness that it really
    isn’t a good way for everyone to go in
    today’s more complicated world, a world
    in which family structures are weaker
    and much more education and self-reliance
    are required. It may be OK for an exemplar
    of morality to take on a young girl
    and marry her (Aisha did not appear
    to suffer and grew up to be a significant
    and powerful figure in her community),
    but do you really think that in today’s
    world the nasty guy down the street
    should be able to do it without the law
    impeding him?

    Food for thought …

  116. m.noor says:

    How did this thread turn into an attack on a religion that lasted over 1000 years with a very noticeable high number of followers/believers?
    Sharshe7ooneh! 🙁 il3naw obo sansafeel oboonneh?! 😥 – translated: we have been degraded & affronted!?
    Why don’t we drop the whole “Islam’s applicability to Life” issue – not because its undebatable 😉 – and concentrate on what I think the matter at hand is about?

    The subject is very simple:
    1. What do you think the G’s point of view behind the idea of enforcing this law?
    2. Do they have the right to do so? If yes, then on what basis? Islamic or logic?

    I think the reason the G often clashes with Muslims is because of its contradiction to what it claims to be; for a G which represents an Islamic country it sure doesn’t show it by applying Shari’a in all – or at least most – of its laws. 🙄 It needs to come clean and practice transparency by stating whether is it an Islamic or a logic one.
    Choose something and stick with it to gain the utmost respect and obedience. On the other hand, try to please two different groups of people by two-facing them and you’ll get screwed both ways – in a manner of speaking 😯

    I hate it when a commenter start making sarcastic remarks (even insults 👿 ) towards others or debaters, which renders all of his otherwise logic & strong points weak & shaky. The best way to speak to someone is to speak to his mind, and not his attitude/appearance/age. The mind bares the juice and in a lot of cases other characteristics fail to reflect the mind’s level.

  117. Lee Ann says:

    I was reading the post but they sort of petered out and got all messed up…so I gave up. Very interesting topic though…heres my two cents.

    Those that fight to allow girls of just about any age to marry are men(pointedly) who fantasize about having sex with girls of any age….period. Why else would they promote the idea of underage girls having the right to marry? My 13 year old cannot leave the house without my permission…she cant turn on the stove without my permission…she cant talk to boys on the phone without good reason and,once again without my permission(and while Im there for good measure)….alot of things she cannot do because she is 13 and neither her mind nor her body are up to the task of acting responsibly or adultlike in anyway. I have a 20 year old daughter as well. She’s 20, going to college, drives a car etc….and yet I know with all my heart she is not mature enough or emotionally capable of being married right now. However, I do have a 15 year old son that has been an “old soul” since he was younger. Extemely mature, level headed, honest, hard working…all the things you would look for in a husband…and yet I wouldnt allow him to marry either…because all though he would technically be ready on the maturity and responsibility level…his obsessive fixation on his PSP leads me to believe any wife he might have would be left to fend for herself because his PSP is the first love of his life.

    In my opinion there is no magic number in which one is ready to marry….but I believe there should be a minimum age and it should be pretty damn high because todays kids are staying kids a lot longer then our ancestors did….life is hard of course….but its a whole lot easier as well….which makes growing up emotionally and maturing responsibly as soon as possible not nearly so important.

    I might also point out that segregating society like this also stunts the emotional growth of kids regarding the opposite sex…if you have never been allowed to spend time in the company of the oppositie sex to get to know how they think…how they act…how they might trick you, deceive you, lie to you…etc then how can you learn to expect that sort of behavoir and defend yourself against it?

    In reply to Aisha’s young age…obviously Aisha herself was not like other little girls…she was seen in a vision by the prophet as being his wife…this meant that she was something special….something rare. Later history shows this to be true….men came from all over the Islamic world to sit at her feet and learn…..in order for her to have learned the quantity and quality of Islamic knowledge that she did in the short time she had with the prophet….she would have had to been pretty damn mature from the start of her relationship with him in order to grasp the importance of his position and hers as his wife. That is my own opinion about that.

    For all those that agree girls should not have a minimum limit to how young they can marry…obviously do not have daughters they love and do not want to see harmed in anyway…otherwise why would you be in a hurry to subject your daughters to the grasping hands and sweaty bodies of older men who prey upon very young girls and call it a “religious right”.

  118. victoria says:

    I think you’re drawing too many parallels to cases of domestic violence today. “Wife beating” in Islam isn’t supposed to inflict any type of pain.

    hitting a women in any shape or form IS domestic violence Fahid… ( The religious ´experts´do not agree on this matter once again it could range from 10 blows with a toothpick to a fist ) but of course it causes pain! otherwise what is the point ? to tickle her into obeying you…

    honestly don’t find any shame in this. When soldiers commit treason they are put through the same. They are executed. Similarly, this practice is the same law that God authorized in the Old Testament. I can even argue that Christ would have practiced this if he ever had the chance to.

    This comment shows how little you understand the Bible. Christ said his followers are to give their own lives up for the service of their fellow man whether believer or non believer not kill them or force them to agree with them.. Don´t put words in his mouth…not wise !!

    once again, there is a huge difference between rejecting Him after accepting Him and rejecting Him from the start.

    Yes but isnt that His job to decide not yours? Again what right do you have to decide what someone else should believe Fahid ..and force it on them by threat of death..

    I find it strange that you would refer to atheists as friends. God has prepared hell for those that denied Him, yet, you call them friends.

    Again it is not my job to decide who goes to hell and neither is it yours. Don´t overreach your authority and act in God´s name. I give atheists just as much respect I would give a believer afterall every human being is made in His image and worthy of respect whatever colour or creed.

    This does not mean I agree with them infact I strongly disagree but I will not judge them. This is God´s domain. How do I not know that the staunchest atheist on his deathbed and in his dying breath did not turn to God and be accepted..

    Now back to the subject

    Those that fight to allow girls of just about any age to marry are men(pointedly) who fantasize about having sex with girls of any age….period. Why else would they promote the idea of underage girls having the right to marry?

    I suspect the same Lee Ann or else as you said they don´t have daughters of their own . If they loved them and wanted the best for them they would want them to ripen and have the opportunity to have an education before being forced to be mothers before they are ready. It is proven that educating women ensures healthier offspring .. and it is said The hand that rocks the cradle controls the world… !! The job of educating and civilising the next generation begins with mothers that are not only physically but emotionally well . Education plays a role in this .

    Vic x

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