That’s opposed to the Islamic approach where a “Bong Hits For Mohammed” T-shirt would send thousands of Muslim madmen pouring into the streets in a rage to kill people, burn down buildings, and lynch poor Ronald McDonald to defend the honor of the Religion of Peace.

“Religion of Peace” means exactly that Steve. But that is not the same as “Religion of Pacifists”. You dont get anywhere in this world by being a panzy pacifist. We arent Amish.

But lets contrast this to the above: So your paragraph, as opposed to the American approach where:

The repitition of the phrase “Iraq has WMDs” would actually send thousands of Americans pouring into the streets of insert_Arab_country_here in a rage to kill people, (5000 or so members of the Iraqi Armed Forces dead), burn down buildings, (former government as well as civilian), and lynch said members of former allies..err.. I mean, former government, all to defend the honor of… ok why did you invade Iraq again?

No really, remind me of why 5000 Iraqis had to lose their lives in the Spring of 2003 at the hands of you Americans again. What was their crime?

That was just our highlight for 2003. Lets not forget 1991. 1974, 1967, 1956, and 1948 either. How many Arabs/Muslims died by your hands or sanction? I would do the math for you, but my old calculator doesnt handle 10 to the 5th powers very well.

Topping it all off, some western newspaper had to equate the prophet Mohammad to a terrorist. They claim it wasnt meant to be like that, although thats hard to buy when Mohammad’s turban has a burning fuse attached to it.

So lets see:

60 years of betrayal, hypocrisy, and 20,000+ Arabs deaths by western hands + 9 Mohammad_is_a_terrorist cartoons = 21 molotov cockstails thrown at some western embassies + two downed towers on a Tuesday.

Hmm, the equation looks somewhat unbalanced. Ill let you guess as to which side it is. In fact, from the looks of this, maybe we really are Amish.

Im curious: just who’s religion do you conservatives follow anyway? Darth Vaders? Its certainly not Jesus’s. That particular Palestinian is probably turning in his heavenly grave.

I’ve heard Rummy say a lot of things, but I’ve never heard him call on anyone to censor Al Jazeera. I have heard him sharply criticize Al Jazeera’s coverage as biased toward Al Qaeda and the insurgents in Iraq.

Tsk tsk. No, they werent criticisms. They were clearly all out calls for censorship. When the State Department asks the president of a country to “rein in” one of its media outlets, thats censorship, not criticism.(And I will add a correction: It was Powell, not Rummy as I stated earlier). Here are the links:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1578619.stm

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,178347,00.html

http://www.reason.com/news/show/32687.html

And some excerpts:

It is not often that Arab leaders defend domestic media freedoms before their American
interlocutors. However, that’s exactly what occurred last week when the secretary of state, Colin Powell, asked the Emir of Qatar, Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani, to put a lid on Al-Jazeera because of its hostility to recent U.S. actions in the region. The emir diplomatically told Powell to mind his own business.

“The clumsiest involved the US secretary of state Colin Powell’s urging of the Emir of Qatar, Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa el-Thani, to bring al-Jazeera to heel and stop “encouraging anti-American feelings”. The Emir, the main shareholder in the Qatar-based station, refused. “

Awww, al-jazeera is hurting American feelings. Aww, so cute.

But no one asked us about our feelings when Bill O’Reilly, the hands down most popular show on cable as he himself proclaims, said that the “US should bomb the Afghan infrastructure to rubble” if they didnt hand over Osama, adding for Iraq that their infrastructure must be destroyed and the population made to endure yet another round of intense pain…. Maybe then the people there will finally overthrow Saddam.”

Furthermore adding,

“If Libya’s Moammar Khadafy does not relinquish power and go into exile, we bomb his oil facilities, all of them. And we mine the harbor in Tripoli. Nothing goes in, nothing goes out. We also destroy all the airports in Libya. Let them eat sand.“. (Emphasis mine).

Let them eat sand. You cant make this stuff up.

But lets forget Oreilly for a second. How about the former Executive Editor of the New York Times?

New York Daily News columnist A.M. Rosenthal, formerly the executive editor of the New York Times, had similarly disturbing advice in his September 14 column. Rosenthal suggested an ultimatum be delivered to at least six countries– Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Syria and Sudan– giving them three days to hand over documents and information related to weapons of mass destruction and terrorist organizations.

Rosenthal warned that “in the three days the terrorists were considering the American ultimatum, the residents of the countries would be urged 24 hours a day by the U.S. to flee the capital and major cities, because they would be bombed to the ground beginning the fourth day.”

Charming. A well known and respected media pundit, who is the most popular guy on cable in the US. A former editor of the NYT, calling on the carpet bombings and actions that would result in mass civilian casualties.

And here you are harping about petrol filled snapple bottles being lobed at some Western embassies?

You do have a flair for the ironic dont you?

The Arab world does not get a vote in our democracy. Only our citizens do. That’s how a democracy works. It seems unwise to pander to the medieval religious bigotry of the Arab world as well. Where has it gotten them?

And we dont demand a vote either. But the point flew right over your head didnt it? The purpose of this excercise was to demonstrate how the US’s policies of respect, human rights, free speech and pluralism apply inside, but are no where to be found outside. (In foreign policy).

Regarding bigotry, I can personally attest to the awkward requests by friends of mine for me to tell their families that Im in fact “Italian” and not Arab if the topic should come up during conversation. And this isnt even that racist cesspool Israel where at least I might “understand” it, but right in the heart of the USA – beacon of light unto the nations I am told.

Its funny actually. A bunch of dudes fly a plane into a couple buildings and now Im supposed to come up with a double life on how im actually an Italian artist of the existentialist persuasion from Naples. It would be so comedic if it werent so tragic.

So dont dare open that bull horn mouth of yours coming here to lecture me about “bigotry” in the Arab world. We were at peace and co-existing with a multitude of peacefully integrated mini-cultures while you guys were debating what fraction best describes the worth of a black man.

Americans tend to be isolationists, not empire builders

..Im sorry, I was scuba diving off the Arabian gulf and hit my head on an American carrier while surfacing. What were you saying again?

their America customers buy their oil from Mars, where will the GCC leaders sell their oil? How will they earn the petrodollars to gold plate their toilets?

Tsk tsk tsk – answer the question, evader. heh, Again, if the GCC tells the US it will start selling its oil to you when Jesus returns, what will happen to that business-not-slave relationship, hmm? (Hint: 1970s oil crisis). Will the US invade and occupy our lands or not?

That’s exactly what happenned when France asked America to leave in the 1960s. By
contrast, what Muslim country has voluntarily left territory it conquered? Do you think Syria would pull out of Lebanon if asked nicely?

Will Syria leave Lebanon if asked nicely? I dont know. Would you leave Iraq if asked nicely?

And what do you mean “what Muslim country has voluntarily left territory is conquered”? Where is this mega-Islamic dark force thats currently occupying Egypt?

First, you make the wrong assumption that any of our military bases are in the GCC against the wishes of the local government.

Where was this assumption made?

Second, you assume that we want our troops in the Gulf. We don’t. It’s a horribly
dysfunctional backwater full of horribly bigoted people. The minute we figure out how to make hydrogen fuel out of seawater, we’ll be gone from the Gulf and the Arab world will wither.

Yes.. so you do want your troops in the gulf – so that you can get our oil. That was the argument from the beginning. Thats why youre there. Not because you want to protect us poor Arabs from Iran, even though you try to play that card, but because you want to protect our..I mean, your oil supply.

Thats the whole point – you claim on the one hand that we are a backwater bigoted people, but then to try scare us about getting annihilated by Iranian nukes. So why worry? Since when do you care so much about the welfare of bigoted and primitive cavemen who cant be reasoned with because they are Mooooslim, hmm? I know you dont. You know you dont. So please, spare us your crocodile tears should Iran invade us. Dont pretend to care. We know its just another divide-and-conquer trick levied on us to try to ally with you because of your interests against Iran. Be a man and come clean. We can see right through you.

I’ve been a Republican for years and I have yet to hear any Republican advocate flying a suicide jet into a skyscraper full of civilians or blowing up commuter trains or making a snuff video.

Which members of which party are most likely to defend the civilian mass-murders of Hiroshima/Nagasaki today? The Green party?

Ibn, the whole world is awash in US dollars. Most of our currency resides outside the US because it is a much more reliable store of labor than the local currencies.

Again, whoosh! Right over your head. You indicated that Iran is paying off the GCC because they have nothing good to offer. I agreed, saying that countries who pay one another off usually have nothing good to offer. Then I drew attention to the fact that its dollars that are circulating within the GCC – not because its a “the best store of labour” in the GCC, (what labour?) but because the US has done the same thing with the GCC in this case, as Iran is trying to do. You bought GCC loyalty. Iran is trying to do the same.

The fact is that what success the Middle East enjoys is derived from the West,
particularly America. You derive your incomes from oil bought by us.

I do? What an idiot I have been. Working 60 hour weeks.

You derive your ease and pleasure from those wonderful gadgets invented by us. You study at our universities. Perversely, you hate us for making your lives better and spin every advantage given you into a horrible imposition by a racist and imperialistic Amerikkka. You should thank your lucky stars that nothing you claim is true.

..My god.. you are like a woman – criticize the color of her dress and she explodes thinking youre calling her fat.

Then she starts to think you hate everything about her. *chuckle*.

So we criticize your foreign policy, and you think were against the freedom you have to improve the toaster oven. Dude… (are you a dude?) .. youre spazzing out again. Whats with this fetish of yours equating the morality of American foreign policy with American achievements? Some of the best inventions came from the worst political institutions. The Germans pretty much invented the first jet engine, and perfected the first V-2 rocket. So, sorry, your correlation of “we invent sh*t” = “therefore you must love us” holds no water.

I say America is acting like an Imperial bully, and you say “Yes but we invented rock man! woohoo!”

I say America is after our oil, and you say “Yeah but look at whose flag is on the moon dude! Yeah! woohoo!”

I say America is hypocritical in its application of rules in the foreign arena, you say “Yes but we won the gold medal during the butterfly swimming of the ’92 Olympics man! See? Were the best!… oh and did I mention, we invented rock man! woohhoo!”

…Its amazing. Are concepts in your mind linked by such weak and genralizaed associations fit for a two year old?… a two year old simple mammal that is? Do you not possess sufficient conceptual resolution?

That is, does your brain just devote one neural cell to all-things-American, thereby rendering you unable to discriminate between certain subsets of it?

What is it that goes on in your head I wonder? “Hrmph. Moon rocket good. America make moon rocket. Hmph. America good! Me hungry.”

hahaha! Keep it up Stevo.

-Ibn

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It’s always amusing to view America through the fun house mirror of your mind. You’re obviously reading current events, but somehow they get garbled.

Steve: “Hmmm. That is a tough choice, caught between a dysfunctional theocracy and a successful democracy. Which to choose, which to choose?”

Ibn: “You mean like that democratic spiff on how the US will let school children wear T-shirts saying “Bong hits for Jesus” under free speech, but the former defence secretary will openly call for the Qatari government to censor a news network he doesnt like? (Al-Jazeera). Like that?”

Yes, it’s true that kids in America can wear a “Bong Hits For Jesus” T-shirt, if their parents don’t object. You can say any damned silly thing you want in America without repercussion from the state because we believe in free speech. Every now and then one of those damned silly things turns out to be true.

That’s opposed to the Islamic approach where a “Bong Hits For Mohammed” T-shirt would send thousands of Muslim madmen pouring into the streets in a rage to kill people, burn down buildings, and lynch poor Ronald McDonald to defend the honor of the Religion of Peace.

Our way is better.

I’ve heard Rummy say a lot of things, but I’ve never heard him call on anyone to censor Al Jazeera. I have heard him sharply criticize Al Jazeera’s coverage as biased toward Al Qaeda and the insurgents in Iraq. This is well-justified criticism. There is a reason why Al Qaeda sends its snuff videos to Al Jazeera.

Many loony lefties and radical anti-Americans believe that any criticism of their position is censorship. It is the hyperbole of radicals unable to defend their position intellectually and so resort to demagoguery. I suspect you fall in this camp.

Ibn: “Heh yeah, a democracy. Because everytime the US wants to do something in the Arab world, they first take an Arab poll.”

The Arab world does not get a vote in our democracy. Only our citizens do. That’s how a democracy works. It seems unwise to pander to the medieval religious bigotry of the Arab world as well. Where has it gotten them?

Ibn: “Jest aside, the democratic (or more accurately, the republican constitutional laws) on which the US was founded on, apply only to its citizenry. (Unless like more recently, habeus corpus is suspended because the government suspects one may have terrorist ties).”

Actually, habeus corpus is still intact, despite the ravings of the loony left, from where you have drawn the opposite conclusion. My advice to you is to never take advice on the state of America from anyone who has specks of foam on his Che T-shirt.

Ibn: “The final fact of the matter is that US behaviour outside its borders, is very different from its behavior inside its borders, and more in tune with just about any other nation out there with Imperial ambitions.”

If we had a desire to have an empire, we’d have the Saudis pulling us along the streets of Riyadh in rickshaws instead of letting them have enough oil loot to gold plate their toilets. The fact is that our business success leads us to be intensely engaged with the rest of the world. Our military follows that engagement to the extent that our trade and national security is protected.

Americans tend to be isolationists, not empire builders, because we see the rest of the world as horribly screwed up. We don’t want to own foreign countries because we don’t want to own their problems.

Steve: “…lion share of profits to the people who had happenned to pitch their tents on the land above it, who we made our business partners, not our slaves. What bastards we Americans are! Why did you ever consent to such an unbalanced relationship?”

Ibn: “I for one would like to see how long this ‘business not slave’ notion maintains itself when the GCC wakes up one day and tells the US it can start getting its oil from Mars.”

If their America customers buy their oil from Mars, where will the GCC leaders sell their oil? How will they earn the petrodollars to gold plate their toilets?

Ibn: “The fuzzy-wuzzy Americans will no doubt promptly leave the Arabian Gulf, taking all carriers and battleships away with them. They will dismantle their bases and take their military men back with them state side. That year, the US team will also win the world cup, and Steve The American will convert to Islam.”

That’s exactly what happenned when France asked America to leave in the 1960s. By contrast, what Muslim country has voluntarily left territory it conquered? Do you think Syria would pull out of Lebanon if asked nicely?

Your argument fails on two counts. First, you make the wrong assumption that any of our military bases are in the GCC against the wishes of the local government. Oil for security has been the basic deal since FDR and King Saud. Second, you assume that we want our troops in the Gulf. We don’t. It’s a horribly dysfunctional backwater full of horribly bigoted people. The minute we figure out how to make hydrogen fuel out of seawater, we’ll be gone from the Gulf and the Arab world will wither.

Steve: “And there is that problem with worshipping a faith that demands the destruction of America and endorses the mass murder of Americans in its insane quest to rule the world. We’re not feeling the love there.”

Ibn: “Umm, theres some mix up here… we’re Muslims, not Republicans.”

Pretty lame rebuttal, Ibn. I’ve been a Republican for years and I have yet to hear any Republican advocate flying a suicide jet into a skyscraper full of civilians or blowing up commuter trains or making a snuff video. And the whole world does not have to maintain elaborate security at every airport to protect against Republican murderers. And we Republicans don’t celebrate when Muslim suicide bombers blow up a crowd of Muslim kids in Iraq. We just shake our heads.

Steve: “Or could it be, could it just be, that Iran doesn’t have much going for it in any way and the only way it can hope to forge an alliance with its neighbors is by paying them off?”

Ibn: “I agree. A country that needs to pay off another one has nothing inherently good to offer. Thats why the GCC countries are awash in dollars.”

Ibn, the whole world is awash in US dollars. Most of our currency resides outside the US because it is a much more reliable store of labor than the local currencies. Most Third World countries steal their citizens money by wildly inflating their currency.

The fact is that what success the Middle East enjoys is derived from the West, particularly America. You derive your incomes from oil bought by us. You derive your ease and pleasure from those wonderful gadgets invented by us. You study at our universities. Perversely, you hate us for making your lives better and spin every advantage given you into a horrible imposition by a racist and imperialistic Amerikkka. You should thank your lucky stars that nothing you claim is true.

Cheers!

Steve

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You might want to ask yourself why you are going to school in a country you can’t stop ranting against(and not just on this thread).

Aliandra, do you know the difference between the Constitution and the speech Collin Powell gave to the UN jusifying attacking Iraq? Or do all papers with “those scribbly things” look alike to you?

-Ibn

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You might want to ask yourself why you are going to school in a country you can’t stop ranting against(and not just on this thread). Unless America’s sins are irrelevant when it comes to your convenience, why don’t you put your money where your mouth is and do your education in a more respectable country?

I’ll bet you’ll be a lot happier.

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freedom doesn´t come free in this world…

This is true.

-Ibn

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The tragedy is that the GCC states are caught between a rock and a hard place. (USA, and Iran). Each alliance comes with its own fine print.

I agree IBN but Bahraini´s had better read the fine print very carefully in this case… they have too much at stake …….freedom doesn´t come free in this world…

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People who talk about things.

and

People who wonder what is going on…

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