Benazir Bhutto killed

27 Dec, '07

Benazir Bhutto in a rally

The BBC reports that the Pakistani political leader Ms. Benazir Bhutto had been killed in a terrorist suicide attack while leaving an election rally in Rawalpindi about an hour ago.

My condolences to the Pakistani people for her loss and its barbaric method. When all that is left is the law of force and terrorism to get your point of view across, you have already lost the cause. Peace-loving human beings should be unequivocal in their condemnation of terrorist acts. Because if things are left as they are, and violence is simply condoned, then we can rest assured that we and those we love will soon be in the cross-fire.

May she rest in peace and I hope that no more deaths are suffered in retaliatory gestures in that deeply divided country.

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  1. Global Voices Online » Arabeyes: Sad for Bhutto | 1 Jan, '08
  1. Barry says:

    How sad and shameful, may she rest in peace.

    It only confirms why I’ve become pretty cynical of human nature over the years, as sad as that sounds.

  2. sunrunner says:

    This event is as ominous as it is shocking. Benizar Bhutto was tragically flawed (due to history, family and culture) but I remember her when she first rose in Pakistani politics and what an inspiration she was to women around the world. This is a sad and shameful day.

    The fact that she was out campaigning in such a public manner is a testament to her courage.

  3. ammaro.com says:

    she was strong, and she knew the risks, but she still went out there. its a real shame, a very sad day. i worry about what will happen in pakistan now; the riots and protests are already starting, pushing the country’s future deeper into uncertanity..

  4. steve the american says:

    Bhutto’s assassination is another step toward the apocalypse for Pakistan. Musharraf represents the last Western-oriented cohort in control of Pakistan. After them, come the wild men of the mosques, who will probably take over Pakistan in the next twenty years or less. The radical Muslims probably think gaining control of the Pakistani nuclear arsenal will be a big step forward for Islam. It’s more likely to bring catastrophe.

    The larger lesson from Bhutto’s assassination is that radical Islam is the enemy of self-determination, of democracy, of moderate rule. The more Islamic your society, the more violent it becomes. If you allow the radicals to steal your future and use you for cannon fodder in their insane jihad, you will never enjoy the freedom, wealth, and intellectual progress of the West.

    The radical Muslims must not be allowed to impose their rule by violence. They must be confronted and crushed. The Muslim clerics must be chased out of politics and government and constrained to ministering to private morality. If you don’t fight for your future, you will end up ruled by the religious fanatics, living in a totalitarian state like the Iranians or, even worse, the Saudis.

  5. Aliandra says:

    Bhutto had a lot of enemies, not all of whom were religious. She was no saint during her time in office. It could have been any one of a dozen or parties who assassinated her.

  6. mIKE says:

    Oh Steve, let’s wait and see what response you get for slapping the side of the bee hive….

  7. mIKE says:

    Ali,
    Hopefully for Pakistans future there are NOT “any one of a dozen” groups willing and capable enough to carry out a combo gun/suicide bomb attack so proficiently. Round up the usual suspects I say..
    De Nile is in Egypt.

  8. steve the american says:

    mIKE,

    I’m probably saying what the sane Muslims are thinking, before they go into their obligatory rant about how the Mossad did it at the behest of Bush.

  9. J says:

    God! some americans can’t wait to take any opportunity to vent their hatred towards Muslims and Islam!

    steve the american:

    The more Islamic your society, the more violent it becomes.

    Islam does not equal violence
    Muslim does not equal terrorist

    Go and learn some math, history and geography and maybe a little bit of religion and good manners. (unless your a Bill O’Reillyist.then dont bother!)

    Problems in the world will never get solved with haters like you whether you have hate bomb or a hate blog!

  10. Abdulkarim says:

    J,

    Islam does not equal violence
    Muslim does not equal terrorist

    That may indeed be the case.

    However, I am bewildered! Could you please explain why is it that most if not all suicidal bombings in the world now are done by people who are Muslims?

    The latest is the horrendous muder of Mrs. Butto. The latest news coming from Pakistan say it was done by religous extremists.

  11. mIKE says:

    J, vent our hatred in what form? here in a discussion,,,,,,,,,,,,or? Please give examples of American hatred vs muslim or islamic hatred, to back your statement ala Bill O’reilly, and stop bloviating plz.

  12. steve the american says:

    J: “Islam does not equal violence
    Muslim does not equal terrorist”

    While Muslim does not equal terrorist, terrorist almost always equals Muslim.

    And yes, Islam does equal violence. Your Prophet assassinated his critics, just as Bhutto was slaughtered as a critic of Islamic rule. Her assassin was following perfectly the perfect example of Mohammed. Islam brooks no dissent.

    Nor is this latest bit of Islamic violence an isolated example, but rather the norm for Muslims. Where ever Muslims go in the world, they make war on their non-Muslim neighbors. Perhaps you might take notice of the world wide jihad Muslims are making against the civilized world, making ten thousand terror attacks since Sep 11 which killed 60,000 victims and wounded 90,000 more. There is no more violent religion on Earth than Islam. That is why Islam is despised around the world.

    J: “Go and learn some math, history and geography and maybe a little bit of religion and good manners. (unless your a Bill O’Reillyist.then dont bother!)”

    Most Americans had their most profound religious lesson regarding Islam on Sep 11, 2001. We’ve become quite the students of Islam since then, which has rendered Islam more contemptible in our eyes. Perhaps Muslims like yourself can teach we Americans good manners by your example. For example, you could stop calling the worshippers of other religions pigs and apes, stop celebrating the mass murder of Americans, stop circulating hate literature in your mosques, maybe even wash “Death to America” off the pillars of Mina. Until then, we owe no respect to an Islam which preaches our destruction.

    J: “Problems in the world will never get solved with haters like you whether you have hate bomb or a hate blog!”

    Yes, yes, yes, what perfect Muslim logic. Anybody who hates Muslim terror is the true hater, eh? Yours is the position of a Muslim bigot who can never admit the wrong done in the name of Islam.

    Here’s a clue for how the Muslim world can earn the respect of Westerners:

    1) Don’t resolve your differences with politicians with whom you disagree by shooting them in the head;

    2) Nor by bombing them to pieces after you shoot them in the head;

    3) Nor by blowing your own self up after shooting your victim in the head, blowing her to pieces, and orphaning her children;

    4) In general, stop killing crowds of people to propagate your evil religion;

    5) Stop making war on all things non-Muslim for the simple sake that they worship a different god or no god at all;

    6) Stop building bombs and terror cells and start building universities and hospitals;

    7) Start building and stop destroying.

    There’s more, a lot more, but these seven would be a good start. Get to it.

  13. J says:

    i am answering generally some of the points above in hope that there will be a more intellectual attitude with some people here.

    quick-simplified history lesson..

    Wahhabis are muslims who appeared with the creation of the saudi kingdom. Abdulwahab(founder) and ibn Saud (who was staunchly convinced with wahhabism) joined forces to wage their “holy war” against all other muslims who did not share their ideology. they have a skewed and violent way of thinking. they massacred muslims all over the arab world..took over hijaz(the original name of the arabian peninsula) and called it the saudi kingdom(in the end..there is more history to this). just to give you a taste of their skewed way of thinking not only massacring muslims was enough they destroyed most historical monuments in hijaz and intended to destroy the grave of the Holy Prophet of islam which they claim to follow!(now the destruction of the buddahs of bamyan by the taliban shouldnt be surprising anymore eh)

    anyway so the tribal birth of the wahhabis came with the force of the saudis. it may have been less of a catastrophe for muslims and the world at large if they stayed as tribes in the desert but unfortunately there was oil which gave them endless amounts of money and a row of happy western powers to form alliances with(also for shortsighted political reasons not just for oil). so the saudis became a strong wealthy family backed by world powers with a dangerous supporting ideology to spread. they sent wahhabi missionaries around the world from the west to africa to the far east.

    and hence and seeds of extremism were planted across the world.

    there is more but i’ll end the lesson here.

    suicide bombings are done out of despair, poverty, anger, revenge, political injustice etc. however the violent ideology of wahhabism is what supports theses terrible atrocities against innocent people.

    wahhabism is not islam. now for westerners who are trying to spread peace in the world..they should join hand with muslims who are trying to bring peace as well by first not generalizing this evil to true islam and the majority of muslims. we are trying to fight this violent ideology way before you even heard of it because the first innocent victims were muslims and their peaceful religion.

    if ignorance and hate prevails amongst westerners against “Islam” and “Muslims” then it will only support bin laden and his troops and their ideology of vendettas.

    lets take steve the american as an example. his comments show a profound ignorance about the religion of Islam and the muslim world. this only feeds in the feelings of hate between east and west.

    it is extremism that you should fight not Isalm.

    maybe a few example from steve’s own history would make him and those unfortunatly like him to rethink and foucus their guns on the right target

    Don’t resolve your differences with politicians with whom you disagree by shooting them in the head;

    abraham lincoln, martin luther king, john f kennedy and many other US politicians were “shot in the head” and guess by whom…not muslims this time!..americans!

    Nor by bombing them to pieces

    the oklahoma city bombing by timothy mcveigh claimed 168 lives and left over 800 injured.

    another american gone badly extreme. it is interesting though his motives for the bombing. he claims to have a grudge against the US gov since the gulf war because as US soldier in the war he was shocked to be ordered to execute surrendering iraqi prisoners!

    mcveigh wrote : “Do people think that government workers in Iraq are any less human than those in Oklahoma City? Do they think that Iraqis don’t have families who will grieve and mourn the loss of their loved ones? Do people believe that the killing of foreigners is somehow different than the killing of Americans?”

    his skewed logic and justification for killing innocent people seem so similar to that of a bin laden supporter! in fact you may find a statement somewhere by a terrosit group saying the exact same thing.

    my american friend can’t you see its extremism… not islam..not christianity..not judaism.. not religion ..not ethnicity..not color..IT IS EXTREMISM THAT IS EVIL

    extremism has many causes that you need to find and target them instead of pointing at the wrong target.

    maybe you can start by cleansing your heart from misled hatred and then you can become part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

    maybe then you can look around the world..iraq..afghanistan..sudan..etc and send your president a letter..

    Start building and stop destroying.

    Then you will earn the respect of the muslims!

    lets hope and pray…

  14. Redbelt says:

    Islamophobia is a very intresting topic.
    To gauge un-inhibited, normal American citizen’s reaction to Islam, check this post:
    http://theredbelt.com/2007/12/americans-afraid-of-college-prayer-room.html

  15. steve the american says:

    J,

    We don’t need a history lesson in Wahhabism. Most interested Americans know Wahhabi history. The Wahhabis predated the Saudi kingdom by quite a bit, but let’s not pick nits.

    The hatred between East and West is not caused by American ignorance of Islam. We understand the violent nature of Islam all too well. The hatred is caused by the murderous bigotry of Islam. Once Islam gives up its bloody intolerance of all things non-Islam, it will be respected as a civilized religion. This intolerance is not constrained to the Wahhabis but is a general feature of all Islam. You don’t produce countries that are 95% to 99% Muslim through tolerance and respect for other religions, but rather by Muslims driving all other religions out.

    It’s true that Abraham Lincoln, MLK, and JFK were shot (MLK in the chest, by the way, not the head) by Americans. It’s also true that the Oklahoma federal bullding was bombed by an American. However, these were all the acts of disgruntled individuals representing only their own private madness. By contrast, Muslim terror is supported by Islamic doctrine, indoctrinated by Muslim states, financed by mosques, and cheered by the Muslim masses.

    The assassins of Lincoln, MLK, and JFK and the Oklahoma City bomber were vigorously pursued by the authorities and, where not killed in the pursuit, vigorously prosecuted. The Muslim world, by contrast, hails its terrorists as heroes and protects them from prosecution. Killers and bombers have no popular support in America, as opposed to the morally depraved Muslim world which considers such mass murders heroic.

    Your contention that McVeigh was ordered to execute Iraqi prisoners is the sort of shameless slander we’ve come to expect from Muslims. It is why your opinion is not respected.

    Suicide bombings are not the product of despair, poverty, anger, revenge, nor political injustice, but rather born of the depraved indoctrination by Muslim clerics who teach little children that killing themselves and others in the process is a noble deed which gains them paradise. It is not just Wahhabis who support such barbarism, but Muslims in general, Muslims such as you who make excuses for suicide bombing as legitimate.

    Western Muslims who live lives far superior to anything they could expect in the Muslim world blow themselves up to propagate their evil religion. The Muslim bombers who blew up innocent people on the London Tube lived nice middle class lives in England, not lives of oppression. They had no legitimate complaint against the West other than the Muslim complaint that they should rule the world.

    The Muslims who tried to blow up a London disco on ladies night, then the Glasgow airport were trained as doctors and hired by the British government. They enjoyed every advantage of the West and repaid it with implacable Islamic hate.

    You can not separate Islam and extremism. Islam is an extremist religion. Your Prophet demanded that you make war on non-Muslims. That makes Islam extreme to its core. Islam is the problem. Making excuses for Islam instead of addressing its dysfunctional nature makes you part of the problem.

  16. Faisal says:

    If u look at this clip, u will hear her say that Osama Bin Laden is died. Then she was killed a week later. Strange.

  17. J says:

    MLK in the chest, by the way, not the head

    While standing on the motel’s 2nd floor balcony, King was shot at 6:01 p.m. April 4, 1968. The bullet entered through his right cheek smashing his jaw and then traveling down his spinal cord before lodging in his shoulder.

    just one example..go and learn your own history before you claim you know ours’ better than we do…

    However, these were all the acts of disgruntled individuals representing only their own private madness.

    oh now he is able to exercise discretion..but not with muslims obviously.

    will not waste my time with you further until you get up to par..all what i stated above were facts..go and learn them..wikipeida is a good start for you..books are another level!

  18. unJane says:

    J – please give examples to support your following statement :-

    ” we are trying to fight this violent ideology way before you even heard of it because the first innocent victims were muslims and their peaceful religion.”

    Thanks

  19. J says:

    unJane,

    the ideology of abdulwahhab is well rooted in the ideas of Ibn Taymiyya (hundreds of years before abdulwahhab) who attacked every school of thought that came his way(by word or sword whenever possible).

    shia maliki shaf’i hanafi hanbali sufi..etc scholars all over wrote many books refuting and attacking his dangerous ideas from the start.

    i googled up a list(sorry but time is precious) (its in arabic but just to prove the point)

    1. إكمال المنة في نقض منهاج السنة/ الشيخ سراج الدين الهندي.
    2. منهاج الشريعة في نقض منهاج السنة/السيد مهدي القزويني.
    3. الإمامة الكبرى والخلافة العظمى/السيد محمد حسن القزويني.
    4. ردود على ابن تيمية/أحمد بن محمد الشيرازي.
    5. خبر الجهة/ أحمد بن يحيى بن جبريل الشافعي.
    6. اعتراضات على ابن تيمية/أحمد بن إبراهيم السروطي الحنفي.
    7. الجوهر المنظّم في زيارة القبر المعظّم/ أحمد بن حجر الهيتمي.
    8. ردّ على ابن تيمية/ كمال الدين أحمد بن محمد الشيرازي.
    9. دفع شبهة من شبّه وتمرّد/تقي الدين بن أبي بكر الحصيني.
    10. المقالة المرضية في الرد على ابن تيمية/الاخناني.
    11. التحفة المختارة في الرد على من انكر الزيارة/تاج الدين الفاكهاني.
    12. البصائر لمنكري التوسل بأهل المقابر/ حمد الله الداجوي.
    13. شفاء السقام في زيارة خير الأنام/تقي الدين علي بن عبد الكافي السبكي.
    14. نجم المهتدي برجم المعتدي/الفخر بن المعلّم القرشي.
    15. الرد على ابن تيمية في الاعتقادات/محم حميد الدين الحنفي الدمشقي الفرغاني.
    16. السيوف المشرفية لقطع اعناق القائلين بالحجة والجسمية/علي بن محمد الميلي الجمالي التونسي المغربي المالكي
    17. الرد على ابن تيمية في مسألة الطلاق/عيسى بن مسعود المنكلاني المالكي.
    18. رسالة في مسألة الزيارة/ محمد بن علي المازني.
    19. الدرة المضيّة في الرد على ابن تيمية/كمال الدين محمد بن علي الشافعي المعروف بابن الزملكاني.
    20. الانصاف والانتصاف لأهل الحق من أهل الاعتساف/لأحد قدماء الإمامية لم يذكر اسمه.
    21. إكمال السنة في نقض منهاج السنة/السيد مهدي الكيشوان.
    22. رد على الشيخ ابن تيمية/نجم الدين بن أبي الدر البغدادي.
    23. جلاء العينين في محاكمة الأحمدين/الشيخ نعمان بن محمود الآلوسي البغدادي.
    24. التوفيق الرباني في الرد على ابن تيمية الحرّاني/ناصح مشفوق.
    25. تطهير الفؤاد من دنس الاعتقاد/الشيخ محمد بخيت المطيعي الحنفي.
    26. السيف الصقيل/السبكي.
    27. وسيلة الإسلام/ابن قنفذ.
    28. الدرّة المضيّة في الرد على ابن تيمية/تقي الدين السبكي.
    29. الرد على ابن تيمية في التجسيم والاستواء/الكلابي.
    30. المقالة المرضية في الرد على ابن تيمية/قاضي القضاة الأقناني.
    31. فرقان القرآن/ القاضي العزامي.
    32. البراهين الساطعة في ردّ بعض البدع الشائعة/القاضي العزامي.
    33. شمس الحقيقة/ أحمد علي بدر.
    34. مقدمة الرسائل السبكية/ كمال أبو المنى.
    35. ابن تيمية ليس سلفياً/ منصور محمد محمد عويس.
    36. شرح العضديّة/ جلال الدين محمد بن أسعد الدواني.
    37. ذخائر القصر/ محمد بن علي بن طوطون الحنفي.
    38. صلح الاخوان من أهل الإيمان/ الخالدي.
    39. بيان الدين القيّم/ الخالدي.
    40. المنحة الوهبية/ الخالدي.
    41. شواهد الحق/ النبهاني.
    42. الأنوار المحمدية/ النبهاني.
    43. الرائية الصغرى/ النبهاني.
    44. دراسات في منهاج السنة/السيد علي الحسيني الميلاني.
    45. ابن تيمية حياته.. عقائده/ صائب عبد الحميد.
    46. من أقطاب الكذابين أحمد بن تيمية الحراني/محمد الرضي الرضوي.
    47. رسالة في الرد على ابن تيمية/الاخميمي الشافعي المعروف بالمصري.
    48. المقالات السنية في كشف ضلالات أحمد بن تيمية/الشيخ عبد الله الهرري.

    and many more centuries of academic literature specifically against this ideology way before wahhabis came to power.

    to give you a taste of how unholy ibn taymiyya was in the eyes of many muslims..the prominent sunni scholar Ibn Hajar al-asqalani said about ibn taymiyya that he was blinded and astray. ِAbi Hamed Marzooq al-Shami said in him: “I have looked into the ideas of this filthy Ibn Taymiyya who has a deviant sickness in his heart”

    you probably heard of Ibn Battuta the muslim traveler. when he visited Damascus he wrote an unflattering account of ibn taymiyya and his followers under the title (The Story Of The Manic Scholar) where his follower have beaten up a scholar who spoke out against Ibn taymiyya’s ideas about God during his firday sermon.

    eventually ibn taymiyya’s extreme missionary style created much havoc where ever he went until he was repeatedly persecuted and jailed after many complaints by scholars and muslim communities.

    anyway.. bottom line is there are muslims right now who are trying to promote peace and stand against violence.. we do not play the blame game and we call a spade a spade. if you want to help then

    stop being cynical

    and have some respect to muslims and their beliefs.

    otherwise dont be part of the problem by venting your islamophobic anger and hate around the world. it is from islamophobia where extremists gain their support for killing innocent american civilians. get it?

    I hope some minds open up now.

  20. Abdulkarim says:

    Dear J,
    I would not say that I agree with every word that Steve says. I do not but I very much enjoy reading his comments. He holds very strong views and is sharp in his criticism. I wish there are more people like him who would stand up for their beliefs.

    Now Steve has leveled some serious accusations at Islam (which I presume you subscribe to) and I was hoping that you would respond to him word for word. Sadly, you do not seem to have done that. Rather, you spent much time attacking a one sect of Islam or talking about the fine details of the assassination of MLK. That I am afraid would not distract the issue if that was your intention.

    You have not even provided a reasonable answer to my earlier question to you. I did not ask you as to why suicidal bombings take place. We all know that. Rather, I asked you why Muslims seem to have a monopoly over it.
    Regards,

  21. steve the american says:

    J: “oh now he is able to exercise discretion..but not with muslims obviously.”

    There is no discretion being exercised here. You cite examples of American violence which are perpetrated by American individuals, while refusing to acknowledge that Muslim terror is the work of organizations which enjoy the support of the mosques, government, and the majority of the Muslim population. The use of terror attacks on civilians to conquer the world for Islam has been institutionalized in Muslim countries. You evade that very uncomfortable fact and so help provide cover for such evil practices to continue.

    j: “will not waste my time with you further until you get up to par..all what i stated above were facts..go and learn them..wikipeida is a good start for you..books are another level!”

    J, we’re way beyond Wikipedia in our understanding that Islam is a force for evil. I see the spot where the Islamic suicide jet hit the Pentagon nearly every day. I don’t need Wikipedia to explain it to me.

    Last night I was talking to my girlfriend who had just seen the Kite Runner, which reminded her of a girlfriend she’d last seen in an Afghan restaurant in Manhattan. She was working an eventin Windows on the World when the jet hit her tower. My girlfriend was hoping that she died quickly, maybe overcome by smoke, so that she wouldn’t suffer. We don’t know if any bit of her survived to bury.

    The only Muslims who behaved decently after Sep 11 were the Iranian students who made their public protest against that terror attack and in sympathy with the American victims. Almost as shocking as the event itself was the worldwide celebration of Muslims of the deaths of Sep 11. We saw you on TV. We read the translations of your newspapers and TV shows. It was a shocking look into the black and evil heart of Muslims. That would have been a good time for these Muslims you claim to oppose Wahhabism to present themselves.

    If you want to convince us that there are moral Muslims who oppose the current barbaric vector of Islam, put them to work in public fighting Wahhabism. Don’t tell us about them, show us. It’s pretty obvious that Wahhabism, the most fanatic and criminal version of Islam, is the most popular version of Islam. That’s why Muslim kids the world over wear Bin Laden T-shirts and have Osama posters hanging in their bedrooms.

    The first step to convincing the West that Islam is a respectable religion is for the Muslim masses to withdraw their support for terrorist organization who publicly claim to love death.

  22. J says:

    i tried to show where the violent ideology comes from for these muslim terrorist. i also tried to show that they don’t have a monopoly on terrorism. they are not the first terrorists nor the last. suicide bombing is basically an effective tactic they use and gained popularity for many reasons. however suicide bombing has an ideological backing as well which perpetuates its existence. moreover (unlike many other barbaric ideologies in the world) this one sect gained state sponsorship, political power and a global network. hence the fight against it is not an easy one. however if we are not able to differentiate between the majority of muslims and these viral elements within the muslim world how are we going to fix the problem if we cant target it precisely. waging war against islam and sticking to the clash of civilizations ideology will not eradicate these terrorists on the contrary it will increase the violence.

    Muslims do not have a monopoly on terrorism. I mean if a disgruntled american (who’s living the good life in a democracy) is capable of going to the extreme and with the help of two or three friends bomb a gov building killing hundreds of innocent lives why would we not expect extremism to infect the disgruntled muslim who is living the crap life under a repressive regime and has a global terrorist network funded by millions with all the resources waiting for him to sign up and given a sick justification for killing innocent civilians?

    as for steve..It is hard if not impossible to have a discussion with someone who starts by concluding that you and your beliefs are evil!

    and when trying to change that view they land on deaf ears.. i know it seemed stupid of me to start splitting hairs on side issues such as MLK being shot in the head but the reason was i wanted to break some of the arrogance and smugness seteve had..or at least i hope! and also to hint to him to go and check on his facts before he writes something..

    people should have some modesty and humbleness when they truly want to learn..

    i would carry on with steve if i felt it were productive

    read any A B C book about islam to learn what it sands for if you have sincere intentions..

    this i find fitting of steves views (for the moment)


    Steve the American Poster

    I very much enjoy reading his comments.

    me toooooooo.. may i suggest to you dear Abdulkarim The Daily Show by Jon Stewart and the Bill O’Reilly Show.. a good laugh for a Saturday night :mrgreen:

    to Steve: i apologize if i hurt any of your feelings and sounded harsh in my criticism..i only hope by this that you would wake up and leave your over-patriotic ways and prejudices and start having more constructive contributions.

  23. The Anti Muslim says:

    I am sick and tired of hearing comments stating how “we” should be more informed, and “we” should understand Islam and their causes, and “we” should be more sympathetic to other cultures. Maybe “they” should be more informed, and “they” should study our constitution, so that they can understand what we fight for, and understand our ways. I’m sick and tired of them. Islam teaches that everyone other than Muslims are infidels, and should die. I don’t care how much one tries to tell me otherwise. I too, am well read, and not by Wikipedia! It isn’t the USA’s problem to accomodate everyone who doesn’t want to fit in, or do not believe in our ways. I like the 21st century, they like the 7th! Let them live in it, and die in it, if they wish, but don’t impose that crap on an American because we like our ways. And as far as I’m concerned, if you threaten us, then maybe we should Hiroshima your ass…it worked once before. And don’t even try to tell me about the oil issue, because if YOU are well read, you will know that it is what has gotten us into the modern world and will keep us there…without it, you’d be in the stone age. So, yes, I want cheap oil, and more of it, just like the rest of the world. And furthermore, close all of those forsaken Mosques in the US…they’re trouble! It all sounds extreme, but many of you know, it’s the real truth…forget about CNN and BBC, and those other propagandists.

  24. steve the american says:

    J,

    I don’t think you’re evil but I do believe Islam is evil. You seem to me to be another blame-shifting Muslim who can not admit the obvious faults of your religion. Those faults are drenching the world in blood.

    On September 10 and before, I wouldn’t have cared what Muslims believed as long as they left me alone and kept their killing to themselves. Come September 11 and after, the atrocities of that day and the worldwide public Muslim joy at the deaths of Americans make me an implacable opponent of Islam for life. I don’t know anything you can do to make Islam right in my eyes or in the eyes of most Americans. Sep 11 and the endless string of terror that continues to this day makes Islam richly worthy of contempt, a barbarous religion of inhuman violence, akin to the Aztecs or Thuggee.

    Spare me your candy-coated self-serving version of Islam. I’ve already heard it and read it from others. It does not natch verifiable events in history. Islam is not an honest religion and does not give an honest account of its history. I’m particularly unimpressed by the dishonesty of the Muslim clergy for whom lying appears to be held as a virtue.

    Don’t worry about hurting my feelings. I don’t care what your opinion is as long as it is honestly made in good faith. I pull no punches myself because frank talk is best when your religion is making war on me and my America. I leave no room for misunderstanding. As long as Islam seeks to do us evil, I will criticize it.

    The reason I do not differentiate between radical Muslims who support terror and Islam as a whole is that few Muslims make an effort to condemn terror, to differentiate Islam from radical Islam. As I’ve written in this blog many times before, Muslims here in DC snubbed a Muslim-sponsored demonstration against Muslim terror. Only 50 people showed up for it. By contrast, 5000 Muslims showed up to demonstrate in front of the White House for Hezbollah, a terror organization which boasts that it loves death. That tells me that Muslims support terror by a hundred to one.

    Muslims may not have an absolute monopoly on terror but they have a near monopoly on it. You should be ashamed to be quibbling about this. When Muslims are blowing innocent people into bloody chunks from New York to Bali, it is absurd for you to pretend that the Muslim jihad of terror against the world doesn’t exist. What other religions are blowing up trains, flying suicide jets into skyscrapers, and making snuff videos?

    It’s also nonsense to claim the world is waging war on Islam when Muslims make war on everyone everywhere they go. For Pete’s sake, Muslim barbarians are killing teachers in Thailand in their beds, chopping the heads off schoolgirls in Indonesia, and assassinating critics of Islam like Theo Van Gogh. When Muslims are slaughtering non-Muslims in dozens of countries, it turns the truth on its head to say that Muslims are the victims.

    You make a false equivalence between McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber, and the hordes of Muslims suicide bombers that pop up everywhere. McVeigh is an anomaly in America while suicide bombers are a feature of Islam. The Muslim murderers who are constantly plotting and occasionally executing mass murder in the West are not leading the oppressed lives you claim. Most spin their plots while living on Western welfare and buy their weapons with that welfare money or the proceeds of petty crime. The Canadian Muslim kids who plotted to behead the Canadian prime minister were comfortably middle class. These Muslims plot terror not because they’re oppressed but because Islam indoctrinates them to do murder to propagate its creed.

    As for your plea to be more modest and humble, you will find me a much more agreeable person when your religion and its adherents stop trying to kill me and destroy my America. I recommend you direct your pleas to be more modest and humble to the Muslims who want to conquer the world for Islam through any means. When Islam gives respect to the non-Muslim world, you may be surprised to find the non-Muslim world will return that respect. As it stands now, the Muslim contempt for the non-Muslim world is being richly and righteously reciprocated. What goes around, comes around.

    I freely admit that seeing three thousand people immolated in my homeland has made me hyper-patriotic. America must be defended against these mass-murdering scum. I want the perpetrators dead. And I also freely admit to being deeply prejudiced against the evil men who did this and the evil religion that propelled them to this monstrous crime.

  25. J says:

    maybe you should send the american constitution to your englishtanese speaking low iq president.. as many americans (who strive to make this world a better place) know the biggest threat to their peaceful way of life is this excuse of a president and the likes of steve the git who probably will end up taking their beloved shotgun from under their pillow and go on an erotic killing rampage in some mexican and muslim filled school.

    What goes around, comes around.

    such a pathetic laughingstock of ignorance encompassed in lump of excess fat.

    i am sure this will awaken no senses in a sick warmongering racist hooligan but for the amusement and benefit of the rest of us here..

    “The heaviest blow ever dealt at liberty will be dealt by this country [America], in the failure of its example to the earth” – Charles Dickens


    click for Steve the American’s right shoulder angel 😉

    unfortunately too nice to be functional for the temperamental git :mrgreen:

  26. mdc says:

    Nice to see the true J and his thoughts emerge; good work Steve, but then I have always been a fan. :mrgreen:

  27. MK says:

    If you Christians are so peace loving folks then please explain the crusades, the killing of thousands of Jews in Europe, the Spanish Conquistadors, the manifest destiny which you claimed was the spreading of freedom by killing those savage Indians. Then how about those african slaves who worked on the southern plantations of course they too were savages. Lynchings were a good way to show them who was in charge. You conveniently forget your own bloody (PEACEFUL) history all too well. Good ol America

    MK the Arab

  28. steve the american says:

    MK,

    Some of the points you make are legitimate, some not.

    Let’s start with the Crusades, which were provoked by the savage Muslim conquest of most of Christendom in the Mediterranean basin. After Mohammed died, Muslims went on a thousand year long jihad of brutal conquest following the Koranic injunction to make non-Muslims convert, subjugate themselves, or die. The carnage in Egypt among the native Copts was horrific and spread west across Africa to invade Europe through Spain and into France. The Muslims invaded Europe through Sicily, on into Italy, even into Rome where they sacked the Vatican. On the East, Muslims slaughtered their way around the Christian lands on the east coast of the Mediterranean into the Christian empire of the Byzantines. The Byzantine emperor, an Eastern Orthodox Christian, begged for help from the Pope, who headed the rival Christian faction, to fight off the Muslim invaders who had conquered most of the Byzantine empire. It took nearly a hundred years to launch the first crusade in the face of the Muslim onslaught.

    So for you to ignore centuries of Muslim conquest of Christian lands to claim the Crusades were unjustified can only be due to ignorance of Muslim history or Muslim bigotry. I might also point out that the Crusades were all fought on territory orginally Christian and taken be force by Muslims in war. If you object to the Christian Crusades which took back these lands temporarily from the Muslims, do you also object to the Muslim jihad which originally stole these lands permanently from the Christians? Or do you follow the Muslim orthodoxy that any land Muslims steal is permanently Muslim?

    Your defense of the Jews in the Holocaust is very touching, especially in the light that most Muslims support the Holocaust and think the Nazis were the good guys. As you may recall, we fought a world war to end Nazi evil, a war I’m proud to say my family fought in.

    I’d be interested to hear how you reconcile your mock horror of the Holocaust with the continued use of unedited Nazi propaganda in the Muslim world and the fervent Muslim desire to perpetrate a new Holocaust in Israel.

    I’d say the Spanish Conquistadors were nobody’s sweethearts, being only a couple steps more advanced than the Aztecs they conquered. I’d say their attempt to spread their religion by conquest was wrong. However, they had been schooled in this way of think by centuries of Muslim occupation and naturally applied the jihad they had been taught so brutally by their former Muslim occupiers to the propagation of Catholicism. We can all agree that the violent Muslim method of making converts by war is wrong.

    I suppose in the fun house mirror of history you learn in Arab classrooms you were taught that all the innocent basket-weaving Indians were killed off by the evil Americans. In the real world, the Indians gave as good as they got. Indian hunting parties casually murdered European settlers they encountered, cutting off choice bits to cook and eat later, much as they would do with a deer. They took the women and children captive, raping the women and casually murdering the children if they were too much trouble or couldn’t keep up.

    Most Indian stories go like this: The Indians casually killed one or two settlers or a family. Their neighbors gave chase but lost their trail after three days. After dozens of such murders happenned, the cavalry was called upon to stop it, but the Indians were too mobild during most of the year to find. So the cavalry had to attack them at their winter camps, where the Indians usually held European captives as slaves. The many little Indian murderers aren’t big enough to make history, but the big cavalry attacks are.

    The Americans did not annihilate the Indians, like, say, the Wahhabis annihilated non-Wahhabis in Arabia, but preserved them on reservations. There were two million Indians when Columbus landed. There are two million left now.

    Shall we compare and contrast the preservation of American Indians to the Jewish tribes that originally lived in Arabia? Or the Jews remaining in Muslim countries? Nobody messes with the Indians in America. Plenty of Muslims mess with Christians, harassing them, murdering them. When Muslims like you complain about American treatment of the Indians, you come off as obtuse about the treatment of ethnic minorities in your own country. Right now, American Indians are setting up wildly profitable casinos on their reservations. Where in the Muslim world are Jews or Hindus allowed to run wildly profitable businesses freely?

    It’s true that slavery existed in America. It’s also true we fought a war to end it a century and a half ago. I might point out that the slave trade was originally started by Africans themselves and taken up with gusto by the Muslims long before Americans became involved with it. Muslims traded and owned slaves long after we prohibited it, even to this very day. What hypocrisy you display to condemn America for long dead slavery when it slavery is alive and well in Islamic countries.

    Where slaves are not openly held in Muslim countries like the Sudan they are implicitly held in Muslim hellholes like Saudi Arabia. Every year in America, Muslim foreigners are prosecuted in America for holding their servants as slaves in their homes. It is simply preposterous for a Muslim like you to castigate Americans on slavery. I recommend you Muslims free your slaves before you presume to lecture the world on slavery.

    As for lynchings, they were executions carried out outside the courts. The state crushed them. The perpetrators were prosecuted. Where local courts were sympathetic to the murderers, state and federal courts continued the prosecutions, some of them to this very day.

    By contrast, the Muslim world commonly executes innocent people in and out of the court system. Some Muslims in Turkey killed some Christians working in a Bible-printing factory, stabbing them with bread knives dozens of times. That sounds worse than hanging to me. Iran commonly hangs gay people, even teenage kids who don’t know what they’re doing. Again, it’s preposterous for Muslims to criticize the lynchings of the Old South in America when the Muslim world maintains its own lynching atmosphere to this very day. For Pete’s sake, Muslims ran wild in the streets murdering people over Danish cartoons. How can you look the world in the face and make such accusations when Muslims are guilty of actively practicing every evil behavior they condemn?

    If you take a look around the bureaucracy in the US government you’ll find it full of black people at every level. How many Jews are incorporated into the governments of Muslim countries? OK, I’ll make it easy: How many non-Muslims are given preference in the Muslim world for government jobs? Or for anything?

    Of course, all these accusations against America are simply the tired old Muslim tactic of evading answering the accusations made against them. Muslims always resort to fallacious tu quoque rebuttals because the Muslim world is simply indefensible.

  29. MK says:

    Your bias is just limitless and just because I am an arab doesnt mean that I was edumacated in an arab country. Wow Steve you have outdone yourself this time, muslim’s supporting the nazi’s, Spanish conquest because of muslims, natives killing pilgrims.

    It is fruitless arguing with you right wing nutjobs. Steve you conveniently forgot to mention the part where the southerners would have sunday barbecues followed by a nice little lynching. The natives were killing pilgrims according to you Steve, you again conveniently forget to mention the part where your government seized their lands and put them on reservations and took their children to residential schools. At these schools your government did a bang job at abusing and culturally cleansing the native children. Ofcourse, all that didn’t happen Steve.

    I’m not even going to argue with your serious accusations against my religion. Nobody has been spared by your americans.. Your country has destroyed the Native American culture, imprisoned Americans of Japanese descent during WWII in internment camps, built a rich, powerful juggernaut on the back of African Slaves, then after setting them free, your started segregating and lynching them publically.

  30. Nine says:

    MK,

    Let’s assume for a moment that what ever you accused America of is true. That still leaves Steve’s accusations of your religion unanswered!

    What you are saying is that wrong plus wrong is right. What a defense of ones believes!

  31. MK says:

    I am not going to defend my religion just for arguments sake, all I am asking is to respect my beliefs as I respect your christian beliefs. If we were all radical fanatics then imagine how much destruction 1 billion muslims would of done caused a full scale war. Just as you christians have some bad apples (KKK, Neo Nazis, Evangelists) we have our short thobed long beard fanatics who are hell bent on destruction. If we all hated the jews so much how come the Nonoo and Rouben family live peacefully in Bahrain? With the government even allocating them land for their own use.

  32. unJane says:

    Wow, J. Thanks for your reply. It was so…….insightful. I actually thought you were talking about a grassroots movement by the people to take back their religion and way of life from the fanatics, not some 14th century travel writer’s diary. Got anything more recent? Do you think you could stage a revolution???

  33. John says:

    Quote: steve steve the american
    “I don’t think you’re evil but I do believe Islam is evil.”

    Islam means peace, so by having little knowledge one can assume that

    “Peace is evil” impossible…

    Well regarding 9/11,
    many american agree that it was an internal work.. Done by american government. There was no involvement of Islam & Muslim whatsoever.

  34. Nine says:

    John,
    I do not think your comment worth responding to but one correction if I may;

    Islam in Arabic I am told means submission not peace. In Arabic the word salam (peace) sounds similar to Islam but that is all.

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