With Photoshop, everyone’s an artist!

11 Jul, '08

We have a saying in Bahrain which goes something like “give the bread to the baker even if he eats half of it!” This roughly translates to give the professional his due and don’t try to take on a job much bigger than your talents.

It seems that Iran didn’t take on this cultural advice and tinkered a bit with missile launch photos to make their attempts appear to be 100% successful. Silly really. To me, it’s infinitely more scary seeing that metal tube not firing leading me to believe that if it does actually fire then it most probably won’t hit its intended target which would mean that collateral damage would be substantial. Now if you consider that the Iranian’s main target in the gulf is just 10 kilometers from where I write this, it is indeed a rather daunting prospect!

And they want us to trust them to have nuclear capabilities? With a nutjob at the top? And misfiring missiles? With rhetoric galore that even illicit a response of hell and damnation from that other nutjob with only a few months remaining in office and who conceivably doesn’t want to leave without setting some sort of mark on Eye-Ran first?

Man this region is in for it.

But the Eye-Ran-Ians weren’t the first in the area to (mis)use Photoshop for turning a silk purse into a sow’s ear, the Bah-Rain-Ians apparently did too! You would think that with the avalanche of petrodollars pouring in, they both would have at least employed expert image editing artists to make the effect a little bit more believable!

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  1. Ali says:

    I agree whole heartedly and am not surprised.

    The truth is in this part of the world artistic professional skill is not valued – just look at the crappy ads that are on the radio.

    Arabs in the Gulf are typical.

    Why pay for a professional ad when you can get two half brained gulfie girls to talk about the latest sale or an over the hill DJ or news reader to pretend he has just won a prize at his local bank – all for under BD 25.

    Why pay proper skilled tradesmen to build your house when you can get a few unskilled slaves to it for half the price.

    Why have professionals in key positions in goverment and family businesses when you can get family members or cronies for nothing.

    Why pick the best when the cheapest will do?

    Why pay for a trained and skilled European when we can get 10 Bahrainis to that job at that price?

    We have a habit of valuing things by the quantum that is needed to do the minimum rather than the skill and experience needed to do the proper job. Price a carpet by the m2 not by the skill and art, pay a consultant by the hour not what his value is and of course steal intellectual property every chance you get.

    I had a knowlege management consultant come to my office and ask me if we valued knowlege based skills. I asked him as a consultant if he himself did and of course he said he did and gave the bull shit that goes with it .

    I then asked if he used original software on his laptop and of course he didn’t – why should he; he can get it for nearly next to nothing. So much for valuing knowlege.

    Al I can say about Iran is at least they actually made the missiles – you have to respect them for that. What have we made here?

    Finally, the listening figures for Radio Bahrain have now fallen through the floor and clients now see no benefit in being associated with the poor quality that is put out; government construction projects are not attracting bids as professional companies are going elsewhere; and we still don’t have a fast internet service.

    So in the end we all lose.

    Maybe the Taliban were right, why bother trying.

  2. Barry says:

    Jeeze… they didn’t even try to cover up the fact that they cut and pasted parts of the smoke trails from the other three working missiles.

  3. Nine says:

    Don’t blame them! They have no time to such niceties for they are in a hurry to go to their heaven. Sadly for them the war that they are desperate to trigger will see them devastated and if there is a heaven awaiting them then they will get it as losers.

  4. Ibn says:

    Nine,

    Sadly for them the war that they are desperate to trigger will see them devastated

    Nine, it is the US (under the current leadership) who is clamoring for war with Iran, not the other way around. Whether secular, (Iraq), religious, (Iran) or anything in between, (Libya), the US is hell bent on total domination of the Middle East. One reason starts with ‘I’, and the other reason starts with ‘O’.

    And correct me if Im wrong, but your above statement just has a tad little bit of a hint of eagerness to see Iran ‘obliterated’ as that snake Hillary Clinton said.

    -Ibn

  5. billT says:

    Mahmood My neice and her two friends started my damn channel and do http://www.mydamnchannel.com/Big_Fat_Brain/You_Suck_at_Photoshop/YouSuckatPhotoshop1_398.aspx

  6. Nine says:

    Ibn,
    No I do not want the Iranians destroyed. I do not want anybody to be destroyed. I want the whole of humanity to live life in peace and prosperity.

    No I do not think the US is clamoring for war with Iran. It is the other way round. The only thing that surprises me in the whole thing is the restraint shown by America and Israel in the face of constant Iranian threats and insults. How long will their patient last when Iran day and after day repeats its ugly threats of destroying the entire state of Israel?

    Do you think history will forgive them if they do nothing but wait for Iran to develop its nuclear weapons? Do you think they are stupid enough to allow history repeat itself?

    Rather than call the US the Great Satan Iran should call the US the Great Savior. They should be thankful for the fact that the US destroyed their two most hated enemies but then I do not think the Iranian government lives in the 21st century. They probably still live in the Middle Ages. If they are not careful they will soon go back to the Stone Age.

  7. Anonny says:

    No I do not think the US is clamoring for war with Iran. It is the other way round.

    Are you blind? The hawkish behaviour is from the US
    and from Israel. We see this again and again from your
    JINSA buddies. Can you identify an Iranian act of
    aggression against America that’s relevant to the
    present era of brinkmanship? Comparable to the
    current campaign being orchestrated to push a vote for
    a naval blockade of Iran through Congress, I mean?

    The only thing that surprises me in the whole thing is the restraint shown by America and Israel in the face of constant Iranian threats and insults

    “Insults” are a casus belli now? When did that
    become acceptable? And what threats, exactly? Israel’s nuclear capability is, however, an easy threat to identify. I’d feel a lot more secure if the Masada
    arsenal were not there. What other country in the world
    has nukes in order to threaten its neighbours? They are
    Masada weapons.

    As I write this, America is supporting known terrorist
    groups – including Salafist fundamentalist muslims –
    in covert actions on Iranian soil. Other groups such
    as the Mojahedin Khalq organisation are also enjoying
    covert support. Admiral Fallon, an experienced and
    intelligent military man, has recently resigned from
    his post as head of US Central Command due to pressure
    from a bunch of demagogic chicken-hawk politicians who
    were angry with his reluctance to agree to a military
    campaign against Iran. Israel’s deputy PM has recently threatened Iran with military force. Israel and the
    US are also transporting missiles and other materièl
    to – and undertaking military exercises in – the
    region.

    So there’s an aggressive media campaign (including
    tv spots paid for by pro-Israeli groups in the US),
    a weapons build-up, support of terrorist groups
    within a nation’s borders, military exercises,
    unsubstantiated accusations and direct threats.

    And you admire their “restraint.”

    Do you think they are stupid enough to allow history repeat itself?

    You mean to allow the US to nuke a country again?

    Nine, what is your religious background?

  8. chineseatheist says:

    Anony said:
    Israel’s deputy PM has recently threatened Iran with military force

    sort of like how monkey boy in iran threatened to wipe Israel off the map. Yes Yes its America, Europe or the JOOOOOOS to blame for it all. Just ask Hitler

  9. Ibn says:

    chineseatheist,

    Apparently we live in a world where it is considered ok for some people to step on the feet of others, as Israel has done with USA’s help. Now some moooooooslims want to do it.

    As that street slang goes, “Dont hate the player, hate the game”.

    -Ibn

  10. Nine says:

    Anonny,
    You ask me about my religious background well what that has got to do with our debate? Why don’t you concentrate on the facts and stop asking personal questions?

    Now can we go back to our debate please?

    The Jews have been prosecuted throughout history usually for ridiculous reasons. More often than not because they were wealthy but weak. Now perhaps for the first time in history they have a nation that is both wealthy and strong. Do you think they would allow another Holocaust to happen?

    O you may say the Iranians have never attacked anybody or carried out an aggression against either the US or Israel. Well that may be true but do you think it would be prudent of Israel to just keep quite? The Iranians have threatened to wipe Israel off the face of the earth and they keep repeating that. Their favorite slogan is Death to America! Death to Israel! These are not empty slogans. There is a religious zeal behind. They say it in their prayers! Aren’t Jews apes and pigs for them? Worthless creatures you may like to say?

    How would you feel if a known pedahopine moves into your neighborhood? Would you not take steps to protect your children? How would you feel if that pedophile threatens to move? Would you wait until he commits his crime?

    Have you heard of the Bani Quarida tribe? Well, let me remind you. These were Jews that inhabited Arabia proper 1,400 years ago. Do you know what happened to their men? Well, they were all slaughtered like sheep. Do you know what happened to their women? Well they were all married off in the same day the heads of their entire men folks were chopped off i.e. raped. Do you see any of their ancestors in Arabia proper now? No.

    Do not therefore blame Israel for arming itself to the teeth. Do not blame them if they attack first. You see they of course, do not want history to repeat itself especially when their enemies look at them as apes and pigs.

  11. billT says:

    Seems to me Ibn that both sides are in the wrong.

  12. sab says:

    Ron Paul *Iranians Tested Missiles AFTER Israel had WAR GAMES!



    watch untill end!

    The sabre rattling is not one sided and not all the iranian’s fault.

    Time to take a deep breath and reassess our position!

  13. Anonny says:

    Anonny,
    You ask me about my religious background well what that has got to do with our debate? Why don’t you concentrate on the facts and stop asking personal questions?

    Now can we go back to our debate please?

    It’s part of the debate. Why do you believe what you
    believe? What’s the reason for your appalling bias
    and lack of facts in your posts. I gave you debate –
    a list of actions on the Western side reported by
    reputable news sources. From you we get “I think” and
    the equivalent …

    I never left the debate. I just asked you a question
    I knew you’d evade 🙂

    So anyway, let’s have a look at your attempt at
    “debate”:

    The Jews have been prosecuted throughout history usually for ridiculous reasons. More often than not because they were wealthy but weak. Now perhaps for the first time in history they have a nation that is both wealthy and strong. Do you think they would allow another Holocaust to happen?

    Here we go again. The Holocaust. Israel is supposed to
    do whatever it damn well pleases because of the
    Holocaust. The Holocaust that Iran had nothing to
    do with. Also, we get the usual stuff about centuries
    of persecution. OK, so what’s this got to do with
    Iran’s “insults” and these “threats” which you’ve
    failed to elucidate? I think it’s time for me to
    remind me of my question to you which you are afraid
    to answer.

    So because other people have attacked the Jews in
    history, they are now in a perfect moral position
    to attack Iran because they think Iran is planning
    to attack them. And because of this they believe
    they have the right to do anything they want.

    Baloney.

    you may say the Iranians have never attacked anybody or carried out an aggression against either the US or Israel. Well that may be true but do you think it would be prudent of Israel to just keep quite? The Iranians have threatened to wipe Israel off the face of the earth and they keep repeating that. Their favorite slogan is Death to America! Death to Israel! These are not empty slogans. There is a religious zeal behind. They say it in their prayers! Aren’t Jews apes and pigs for them? Worthless creatures you may like to say?

    It is true that Iran has never attacked Israel. And
    I never said that Israel should keep quiet. Stop
    putting words into my posts that are not there, please.

    Can you back up this claim of yours that Iran has
    threatened to wipe Israel off the face of the earth?
    ..
    ..
    ..
    .. Nope. I thought not. They have never made that
    threat.

    Their slogans are empty. Despite Israeli and American
    action against Iran for decades (see my last post for
    some reported facts – as opposed to unsubstantiated
    partisan opinions like yours), Iran’s military action
    against either nation is almost entirely defensive.
    They say Death to whatever nation but they don’t say
    that they are going to be the agents of this destruction.

    Now Israelis have threatened to attack Iran (see my
    previous post) America has threatened to do the same.
    Israelis in the past have threatened to turn Arab
    countries into a “sea of glass”. A religious authority
    in Israel has categorized the Palestinians as “Amalek”
    which means that he considers it morally acceptable –
    if not a moral imperative – to exterminate them. You
    can find this in Haaretz if you don’t believe me. I
    hear but cannot confirm that certain authorities
    seek to confirm Amalek status onto … well, you
    know who … I’d rather be called ape or pig than
    the crazy, fundamentalist, genocidal term “Amalek”.

    How would you feel if a known pedahopine moves into your neighborhood? Would you not take steps to protect your children? How would you feel if that pedophile threatens to move? Would you wait until he commits his crime?

    So now you compare Iranians to paedophiles? Nine, you
    make me sick. Do you have a conscience? Do you call
    what you write “debate”? Is there any limit to this
    kind of hysterical nonsense from you?

    Have you heard of the Bani Quarida tribe? Well, let me remind you. These were Jews that inhabited Arabia proper 1,400 years ago. Do you know what happened to their men? Well, they were all slaughtered like sheep. Do you know what happened to their women? Well they were all married off in the same day the heads of their entire men folks were chopped off i.e. raped. Do you see any of their ancestors in Arabia proper now? No.

    IRANIANS ARE NOT ARABS, STUPID!

    This was a tribal war in Arabia 1400 years ago! 1400
    years ago! Are you rational? How many individuals were
    involved? A few hundred? It happened in Arabia against
    a backdrop of constant tribal warfare! What the hell
    has it got to do with Iran? Please don’t be afraid to
    answer this question, at least. I always say
    a laugh does me good.

    Nine, thousands upon thousands of Jews live peacefully
    and happily in Iran. Many of them went to live in
    Israel years ago and went back to Iran because they
    felt better living there. There are Jews in the Iranian
    parliament and in other governmental apparatus. When
    are you going to stop your smear campaign? When are
    you going to educate yourself instead of bleating all
    the usual cliches?

    Do not blame them if they attack first.

    You’re serious aren’t you. You know that most of
    the people posting to Mahmood’s den live in the
    region. You know we have families here. You must
    have some idea of what we have to lose, and you
    are beating the drums for war in your uninvolved,
    dirty-hands-at-arms-length style. And you have
    the gall to write that. You are unbelievable.

  14. Anonny says:

    Chineseatheist,

    I don’t need to ask a Chinese about Hitler. I’ll ask
    a Tibetan.

    Ahmadinejad did not threaten to wipe Israel off the
    map. He did not even say that Israel should be wiped
    off the map. If you bothered to look up the original
    Farsi (He speaks Farsi, you know, not English), he
    was saying that the present regime in Israel will
    “disappear from the pages of time” which alludes
    to a natural course of events or to “fate”. It was
    not a threat. But then Fox News want us to believe
    it is a threat, so …

  15. Nine says:

    Anonny,
    I shall restrain myself from using any inflammatory language like yours. You see your tactic is that of people with a bankrupt ideology. That is how they camouflage their weakness.

    You very well know that I did not say that the Iranians were paedophiles. I did not even imply it.

    I only made my paedophile example to drive home my point that is all. However, you chose to twist my words. This was a sickening thing to do.

    The Iranians are a decent and proud people just like everybody else. The average man in the street is honest and polite.

    However, they have a government that does not represent them and which is determined to cause them untold damage with its reckless policies. The miseries that it has inflicted on its people already do not seem enough.

    It is people like you who will help Iran go back to the Stone Age. You are fuelling the fire of hate that is consuming their leadership. If you were really true in wanting to avoid the war you would have advised them a U turn in their policies. You would have urged them to look at all people including Jews as brothers in humanity not as dirty infidels, apes and pigs. Giving excuses for their ugly slogans of “Death to America. Death to Israel” does not help. You should have said that what they were doing was plain wrong and stupid. For you very well know that war means death and destruction on all sides and that Iran is not capable of confronting Israel. The photo gimmick that has sparked this debate is only a small testimony to this.

    O the Jews may not be virtuous. Who is? O they may have milked the Holocaust. Who wouldn’t? But I tell you they have done far more to humanity in 100 years than many other people did in a 1000 years. I do not know what creed you belong to. It does not matter to me and I am not asking you to reveal it (I do not ask personal questions you see!) but I can confidently say that your people’s contribution to humanity most likely pals into insignificance in comparison to that of the Jews.

    Is it also not funny that the nation that has contributed so little to humanity over the past 1,000 years i.e. Iran calls for the death of the nation that has done so much for humanity over the past 100 years i.e. the US? It is not funny. It is despicable.

    The Iranians are not Arabs. Yes I know that but I also know their government subscribes to the same ideology that drove the Bani Quarida tribe to the slaughter house and into extinction. It is this ideology that has to be challenged and defeated rather than trying hopelessly as you did in defending it.

  16. Anonny says:

    I shall restrain myself from using any inflammatory language like yours. You see your tactic is that of people with a bankrupt ideology. That is how they camouflage their weakness.

    You are trying to camouflage yours with this rhetoric
    and aggrieved tone. How sad. I’ve even given you facts
    you can check, but no. You don’t even bother to reply
    to the data, just the emotional stuff. Now that’s weak.

    You very well know that I did not say that the Iranians were paedophiles. I did not even imply it.

    I only made my paedophile example to drive home my point that is all. However, you chose to twist my words. This was a sickening thing to do.

    You are not being honest here. It was your
    analogy and it was sickening. No twisting required –
    an analogy is a comparison – that’s English for you.

    However, they have a government that does not represent them and which is determined to cause them untold damage with its reckless policies. The miseries that it has inflicted on its people already do not seem enough.

    Can you cite one fact? Can you back this up? It’s just
    your opinion. Iran is surrounded by enemies on many
    fronts. They have played a weak hand very shrewdly.
    They’ve had to learn how to do this since 1953, when
    Britain and the US conspired (Google Operation Ajax)
    to subvert a democratically-elected government and
    compass the downfall of a democratically-elected
    prime minister, Dr. Soroush Mossadegh. As I wrote in
    a previous reply to you (and you chose to conveniently
    ignore it as usual) some of those enemies are terrorist groups being supported by outside powers
    such as the US. Read the data again if you can
    do that. And save your moral-high-ground tone for
    your equally safely-distant friends.

    It is people like you who will help Iran go back to the Stone Age. You are fuelling the fire of hate that is consuming their leadership.

    Exactly how am I doing that? The key word here is
    exactly, Nine. This is rhetorical nonsense,
    nothing more. What about your hatred that seeks to
    justify aggression against a sovereign nation?

    What I have done is reply to your opinion
    with reported evidence to the contrary. You are
    unable to do the same, it seems. And now you accuse
    me of pushing them back to the Stone Age. No, it’s
    the US/Israeli/Euro bombs and aggressive interrogation
    techniques in illegal prisons that will do that.

    If you were really true in wanting to avoid the war you would have advised them a U turn in their policies.

    How remiss of me – and I’m on the phone to Khamenei
    all the time.

    Oh, and by the way, let’s have an exact description
    of their policies that you object to the most.

    You would have urged them to look at all people including Jews as brothers in humanity not as dirty infidels, apes and pigs.

    Please refer to what I wrote about Iranian Jews in my
    post, you sanctimonious baboon. What’s the point of
    “debate” if you can’t be bothered to read what I write?

    And please be mindful of the distinction between the
    Jews of the world who deserve respect and who practice
    their religion in peace, and the Israeli terrorist
    government.

    And any comment on the word “Amalek”? You seem to
    be unable to answer my questions. “Apes and pigs” are
    your words, not mine.

    you very well know that war means death and destruction on all sides and that Iran is not capable of confronting Israel. The photo gimmick that has sparked this debate is only a small testimony to this.

    There’s no need to gloat about Israel’s destructive
    abilities, Nine.

    Yes, I know what war means. I alluded to my personal
    interest in all this in the last paragraph of my
    previous post – which you just casually gloss over
    as if it’s unimportant. This is not just text on a
    screen to me, Nine.

    but I can confidently say that your people’s contribution to humanity most likely pals into insignificance in comparison to that of the Jews.

    I’m a garden-variety Englishman. I think that we’ve
    got a pretty good history of contribution to the
    world, although some of our Empire episodes are
    pretty shameful. But you can thank us for quite a
    lot.

    Well, that’s my people. Who are your people? I
    ask personal questions because I’m a human being,
    not some paranoid, petit-mal automaton.

    You don’t have to be shy.

    Your confidence is mis-placed though. Some of us
    regret the invention of the nuclear bomb. Oppenheimer
    himself quoted the Baghavad Gita in lamentation
    (not the Babylon Talmud in glee!) when he saw
    what his invention had done to Hiroshima and
    Nagasaki.

    The Iranians are not Arabs. Yes I know that but I also know their government subscribes to the same ideology that drove the Bani Quarida tribe to the slaughter house and into extinction.

    Another unfounded accusation. Where is your evidence
    for this “subscription”? The Iranians have thousands
    of years of history of racial mixing and blending. Conquest, yes. Genocide? No.

    It is this ideology that has to be challenged and defeated rather than trying hopelessly as you did in defending it.

    You are so dishonest. I wasn’t defending an
    ideology. I was countering your accusations. You are
    saying that the war-mongering is mostly on Iran’s
    side, yes? I gave you evidence to the contrary which
    you have not been able to refute, concentrating instead
    on accusing me of supporting Iran’s tribe-erasing
    ideology or whatever paranoid fantasy is tottering
    about in your head. I’m not a Muslim and I’m not
    pro-Islam. I’m just a guy who reads the news properly
    and checks things. There are a few of us here on this
    forum.

    Now why don’t you shift your focus away from this
    100% rhetorical sniping and actually look
    at some information? There’s plenty out there.

    One more thing. If the Iranians do adhere to this
    ideology you fail to adequately elucidate, then
    bombing them will probably polarise them even more.
    My grandparents went through Blitzkrieg and have
    told me all about this effect. Any attempt to design
    and order compliance – and enforce that design on
    others – will most likely invite an equal and
    opposite reaction.

  17. Ibn says:

    Nine,

    Chillax.

    This isn’t, and shouldn’t be, a pissing contest between different ethnicities and cultures – keeping tabs on what ethnicities have given us what is no measure on the moral standing of a particular nation. After all, the Germans under the Nazis made some spectacular breakthroughs in rocketry I hear.

    So lets stick to the topic at hand – it basically comes down to this: There are two ways, and only two ways to live in this world. Either we play by some rules, or we do not. If it is wrong for countries to threaten annihilations of other countries, then why was the freest country in the world even toying with a possible presidential candidate (Hillary) who was threatening to do just that? If you are going to tell me that is was because “Iran threatened Israel”, then I can tell you that maybe Iran says what it says because Israel threatened, continues to threaten, and has in fact done well on threatening the Palestinians, and other Arabs.

    Even from a purely utilitarian point of view, how does the killing of 6 million humans justify killing another 66 million? (Israel and Iran’s populations respectively). To “obliterate” Iran as Hillary put it. Yet this is precisely what one of the US’s presumptive and still well respected leaders has told us. What maths does one do to arrive at this?

    Yes I know that but I also know their government subscribes to the same ideology that drove the Bani Quarida tribe to the slaughter house and into extinction.

    You misundertand the Bani Quraida battle, the context of early Islam, and convolute those incidents 1400 years ago with today’s geo-political tensions.

    If Iran was hell bent on a campaign of Jewish annihilation, why don’t they start with their own Jewish populace? Its much easier afterall.

    Furthermore, the battles you are referring to regarding early Islam were more political than anything else. Islam was borne against the backdrop of tribal wars, and religiously oriented empires in a deeply religious age. The Jewish/Pagan tribes in Arabia at the time were political enemies of Islam, (and each other!). What do you think they were doing before Islam came about? Holding a model UN? Islam tried to put an end to incessant tribal warfare based on one’s ethnicity, and alleged infractions against a tribe’s favorite camel.

    In fact, Islam was the most progressive and inclusive ideology available at the time. (Again, in context).

    So, don’t confuse the two. Today’s tensions regarding Israel are ones based purely on territory and political realities. Morocco has a rich and vibrant Jewish community which has lived in peace. When Germany asked the King of Morocco to hand over his Jews during WWII, he told him to go f*** himself. Iran during the same period forged Iranian passports to many Jews escaping the holocaust so that they might find refuge.

    So this isnt a religious conflict. Colored by it perhaps, but by no means a religious war. It is territorial. Try not to put too much weight on the religious aspect of who did what to whom 1000 years ago.

    Its funny but I have learned more about Islamic quotes and verses from Western news channels than my own schooling, even though I was brought up Muslim in an Arab country. This shows the degree to which Westerners misunderstand the true resentment against Israel, and the fact that is has little to do with religion, and everything to do with territory and principle.

    Rethink your basic assumptions on the subject matter.

    -Ibn

  18. Nine says:

    Anonny, Ibn,
    There is much in there to respond to. I shall come back to you in a day or two. I promise.

    One good thing is that the foul language is out. I can talk freely now without the fear of being insulted.

    I am not here to ‘win” but to make friends and to learn. It would be great if I could convince you of my case but if not and you end up convincing me of yours then it is better still. We shall see.

  19. Nine says:

    Annony, Ibn,

    “Israel is supposed to do whatever it damn well pleases because of the Holocaust. The Holocaust that Iran had nothing to do with.”

    I fully agree that Iran had nothing to do with the Holocaust. I also fully agree that the suffering of the Jews in the past does not give them the right to do whatever they want now or in the future.

    My point was simple. Israel would have the right strike first if it sincerely believes that somebody else was seriously planning to attack it. Do not forget we are talking about nuclear weapons here! Iran has denied repeatedly that it is embarking on a nuclear weapons program. However, Iran has repeatedly declined to give full disclosure of its program or full access for international observers to its nuclear facilities. Now what do you do? No do not get me wrong! I am not giving Israel an open cheque here.

    “So because other people have attacked the Jews in
    history, they are now in a perfect moral position
    to attack Iran because they think Iran is planning
    to attack them. And because of this they believe
    they have the right to do anything they want.”

    No. I did not say that. Israel does not have an automatic right to do whatever it wants to do. However, what would you do with a country that is poised to have nuclear weapons and which calls for your destruction all the time? You may say that their slogans are empty but they say it in their prayers. It is on live TV all the time!

    “Can you back up this claim of yours that Iran has
    threatened to wipe Israel off the face of the earth?”

    Sorry I can not give you any quotes now. But then what is the point? You will say that these were empty words wouldn’t you? O they did not mean it! The usual denial stuff.

    “They say Death to whatever nation but they don’t say
    that they are going to be the agents of this destruction.”

    We do not know that do we? You do not expect them to say that they would be the agents do you? Has anybody admitted that they were the agents behind the murder of Alexander Litvinenko in London? Incidentally, I notice that they recently added “Death to England” to the list. Or was it there before?

    “Now Israelis have threatened to attack Iran (see my
    previous post) America has threatened to do the same.
    Israelis in the past have threatened to turn Arab
    countries into a “sea of glass”.”

    They have not carried it out have they? Don’t forget that Israel has the capabilities of carrying out these threats NOW.

    “A religious authority in Israel has categorized the Palestinians as “Amalek” which means that he considers it morally acceptable – if not a moral imperative – to exterminate them.”

    Well, there are extremists every where. There was one who even assassinated the Prime Minister of Israel. He was a Jew and an Israeli. Now you would not say he represented the whole of Israel would you? The same thing I would say about this “Amalek” thing.

    “It was your analogy and it was sickening. No twisting required – an analogy is a comparison – that’s English for you.”

    Perhaps my example was wrong. It certainly was if people understood it the way you did. I do not think anybody else did though apart from you but one is far too many for me and I apologies for any offence I may have caused.

    “Can you cite one fact? Can you back this up? It’s just
    your opinion.”

    What fact do you need? Do they for example, have free and fair elections? Why are they afraid of having fair and free elections?

    “They’ve had to learn how to do this since 1953, when
    Britain and the US conspired (Google Operation Ajax)
    to subvert a democratically-elected government and
    compass the downfall of a democratically-elected
    prime minister, Dr. Soroush Mossadegh.”

    Well this was a mistake on the part of the big powers but I think the US has admitted its mistake here. I can’t be sure though of this.

    Will Iran be brave enough too and admit that it has made a mistake in holding the US diplomats hostage for 444 days?

    “Please refer to what I wrote about Iranian Jews in my
    post, you sanctimonious baboon. What’s the point of
    “debate” if you can’t be bothered to read what I write?”

    I read what you wrote about the conditions of the Jews in Iran. This if anything is a proof of the decency of the Iranian people. I never doubted that. It is their government that I have trouble with. It is my understanding however, that the majority of the Iranian Jews left for Israel. Most of the rest would follow suit if allowed especially considering the dire economic situation there in Iran caused by an inept government.

    “I’m a garden-variety Englishman. I think that we’ve
    got a pretty good history of contribution to the
    world, although some of our Empire episodes are
    pretty shameful. But you can thank us for quite a
    lot.”

    I got it wrong here. I thought you came for somewhere else and for a change I fully agree with you on this.

    “Some of us regret the invention of the nuclear bomb.”

    I don’t. I think it is one of the greatest inventions of man kind. O you may disagree but don’t forget it is the bomb that has saved some 5 million Americans and Japanese from imminent death. It was the bomb that saved humanity from the evils of communism. Don’t you think that the Iron Curtain would have extended all the way to the shores of the Atlantic if it was not for the bomb?

    “The Iranians have thousands of years of history of racial mixing and blending. Conquest, yes. Genocide? No.”

    Agree but then I did not accuse them of practicing genocide did I? I only said it is the ideology that their government subscribes too. An ideology that if implemented to the full would see rivers of blood flowing.

    “If Iran was hell bent on a campaign of Jewish annihilation, why don’t they start with their own Jewish populace? Its much easier afterall. “

    Well this is a question that should be posed to them. If they are not serious in their threats why do they say it? Why don’t they just shut up?

    “So this isnt a religious conflict. Colored by it perhaps, but by no means a religious war. It is territorial.”

    I disagree. That is why I found the whole thing rather sad. Iran does not have any territorial disputes with Israel. They do not share common borders. They have no disputes over rivers. Rather they are thousands of miles apart. They could be the best of friends if they want to. They have lots of things in common. Why become enemies? It is as I mentioned above the ideology that has poisoned them since 1979 and blurred their vision to see as to what is good for them and what is bad.

  20. Ibn says:

    Nine,

    Im glad to hear that you’re here to learn dude. (dudette?).

    In my personal experience Nine, there are two types of debates: There’s punk, and there’s cordial.

    Punk debates are simple. You have your position. The other guy has his. You know his position. He knows yours. You have no real interest in budging, and neither does he. So the punk-debate between the two of you revolves around slogans, sarcastic wit, his disgusting bias, questioning his planet of origin, things of that nature. The metric of success here is usually the person who uses slogans with the most “umph”.
    Rarely does anyone actually learn anything.

    Then there are Cordial debates. This is when you genuinely want to learn about another topic, but at the same time square it against what bias/experience you might have, and see what comes out. If I had to pick a logo for cordial debates, it would be the question mark, because at its heart, you have to ask questions, more questions, questions about those answers to previous questions, and so forth. You have to probe essentially, and try to see the reasoning behind a belief. He will ask you questions, you will ask him questions, and slowly you converge on some fundamentals you can agree on. Then, you work your way back up from there back into the actual topic.

    Just remember, at no time may you sacrifice logic on the altar of some emotional reaction to whatever topic is being discussed. Logic, must be the final arbiter.

    Yes, there are some people and that do deserve a thorough beat down because of being just so overly and obviously illogical – I mean you can tell they aren’t even trying. Let bygones be bygones in that case. Better to take your message and write a book instead. (And with people like them, thats probably one instance where you can justifiably go punk on them).

    One of the highest forms of debates Nine is not seeing your opponent as an opponent per se, but as someone who can be convinced of your case and become an ally – someone that can in fact be enlightened to the truth which you might have discovered. Certainly, the end goal of debates is convergence on truth.

    The best way to do that is to get to the heart of your opponent’s emotional state – why does he think what he thinks? What are his concerns? Worries? Grievances? Address them, and you will find not only success in convincing them of your argument, but also, newfound allies at best, and respect and leniency towards you at worst.

    Just my two cents man. 🙂

    -Ibn

  21. Brian says:

    Back to the subject of photoshop, have a laugh by looking at
    http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/beirutspring/fb_feed/~3/337195414/

  22. Nine says:

    Dearest Ibn,

    I guess I am a bit of argumentative if that is what you mean but then I like to feel that I fall within your “cordial” category.

    I am here to learn, make friends and have a laugh. I never use any abusive language in spite of the temptations! You have seen that here! I was caught once or twice making some nasty remarks. I was reprimanded by Mahmood, learned my lesson and have not done it since.

    I want peace and prosperity for all of man kind. I hope reason and sanity will prevail and war is avoided always. I hope our little debate has made some contribution, minute it may be, towards that end.
    Peace.

  23. Sami says:

    Hey Mahmood,

    What’s with the Ads for John McCain that appears on your website! are these from Google Ads!!! I’ve seen similar Ads appearing on the Zionists mouthpiece, the Jerusalem Post! Show some mercy for our souls 🙂

  24. Nine says:

    Sami,

    What a pathetic comment!

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