Doesn’t look like it, as Israel continues its hostile actions.
We hope though that they, Hizballah and the Lebanese will stop and respect 1701.
Time to rebuild Lebanon should start immediately in parallel to helping people to go back to their cities, towns and villages.
It is time to work peacefully at ensuring the cause which instigated this conflict be discussed and removed? I sure hope so…
Comments
I just want it on record, as proof that Hizbollah does, indeed, seek violence with any excuse.
An Isaeli expert claimed, yesturday, that even if the Sh’ba farms are returned, Hizbollah has already prepared the next excuse to form violence. It will claim that some villages that have been part of Israel since before 1948 are now part of Lebanon, and it is they that it is “defending”, and that is the reason it cannot put down its weapons.
Please remember, when you hear Nasrallah voicing passionate speaches on the importance of those villages, that they never came up until the Sh’ba farm excuse was removed.
Shachar
Shachar, thank you for enlightening us all with that post. I’m glad you put that on the record. Nothing like good speculation from an Israeli “expert” to “prove” that Hezbollah seeks violence without any excuse.
Funny, coming from a nation that just agreed to a resolution for ceasefire and in the same breath said that it will continue to expand its operations in Lebanon, in scope with no limited time frame.
We’ll try to remember your statement on record when we hear Olmert insist on expanded operations in Lebanon and watch the Lebanese death toll rise further (oh yeah, forgot, the 4 million Lebanese civilians are not civilians, they’re all Hezbollah).
Hilarious in a sick way
Yeah so Israeli “experts” are supposed to be neutral? the resolution was passed yet Israel kept attacking, it showed its true face yet still everyone stands against Hizbollah. What a time we live in!
just for the recored Israel lost the war against Hizbollah, against the civilians and last i have a wish >>>i hop that hizbollah will attack with all the woopen he have all the lsraeli pepole coz i don’t belive that in Israel their is civilians.
If memory serves me correctly, Hezbullah shot over some rockets ‘only’ after Israel pounded the bejesus out Gaza for the military Hamas’ kidnapping of Cpt Shalit (anyone remember him? I think he must be 19 by now). It was generally thought that Hezbullah came to the Gaza’ns aid and tried to get the attention off of them. Israel started to then, pound the bejesus on Lebanon..somewhere in there, some people got kidnapped, but regardless of what anyone thinks of Hezbollah, they did not start the heavy duty war with casualties..Israel lost the war on all accounts but the usual suspects are at fault as well, Bush and company. They were not in a hurry to call Israel off, in fact, encouraged them. It goes to show that anyone being ‘friendly’ with the current gov’t better make their own decisions, because (the) loss of life is not considered a big deal to them, whether their own people in Iraq (meaning, the US army) or other people in Israel, it does not pay to be friends with the US.
Ingrid
Ingrid,
Too bad your memory does not serve you correctly.
Earlier on either “Smart Move Sherlock” or “If you are not with us…” posts (i do not have the time to search for the exact date right now) Sunrunner, like you did not seem to remember that that Katyusha attacks by Hizbollah preceded the kidnapping of any soldiers and the ensuing current Israeli response.
I will refer you to the enclosed link in order to help refresh your memory:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hizballah-rockets.htm
In case you do not get it, let me just paste a part of it:
” Hizballah fighters raided north Israel in a botched attempt to capture Israeli troops November 21, 2005, triggering the worst round of fighting since Israel pulled out from south Lebanon five years ago. Hizbollah also fired salvoes of Katyusha rockets into Israeli posts in the Shebaa Farms. On 28 May 2006 Hezbollah launched a Katyusha barrage at an IDF base on Mt. Meron. Israel responded immediately by hitting a number of Hezbollah positions along the border.”
Shachar,
Thanks for trying to straighten the record!
A word of caution though, whatever you say will always be misconstrued.
Ibn already has you “admitting” that the injustices done to Arabs during the 1948 War of Independence were done because they were the “wrong race.” In his book you are a hero because you “have acknowledged” “crime number 2” thus, according to him, are on your are well on your way to admitting that Zionism is equal to Racism.
It does not matter that I have tried to point out to him what you responded to Brian saying that you did not admit that but merely acknowledged that injustices were carried out…He merely chose to repeat what suited his purposes and his agenda.
So good luck in your uphill battle. You have my full support!
Batzi
Batzi, with all due respect, why are you bothering with this uphill battle if everything you say will always be misconstrued? Why dont you go talk to people who say exactly what you are saying, and that way, you’ll be happy. I love the insight you have into our mindset. The only reason I commented on Shachar’s comment was that it was a silly comment.
I remember at one point you were saying you were a university professor or something. Would you accept someone saying that this should be noted on record, that the opinion of a nameless expert should go down on record as if it were the Bible/Torah/Quran?
This is not misconstruction, this is just calling things someone’s statement stupid cause it is. Have you just gotten so used to your opinion being paramount and never criticized, that even the most mundane of critiques of someone’s hardly academic statements, would be seen as Arabs misconstruing Jews? Please lay off that broken record, and start realizing people see you not as Jews, but as people who are perpetuating atrocities, whether you’re Jewish, Kenyan, white, blue or the men from Mars! I really couldnt care if you’re Jewish or not. What I care about is the fact that you seem to think the world revolves around you, and that there is animosity surrounding you not because you’re Jewish but because you are unjust and usurpers of other peoples’ rights and now, lives.
I had kept away from this blog for the longest time, because I felt I was talking to walls and felt, whats the piont. I had started off thinking I could talk to you and others, that I had a certain level of respect for some of you, and certainly no religious hangups. However, as human beings, you guys didnt really impress me. What was more important to you, despite seeing all the frustration and anger from many of us at seeing innocent people killed, and some we even know, was to prove that your battle was justified. Your killing of people was justified. To hell with your justifications, because some 75 years ago, someone sick felt the killing of the Jews was justified too. There is no justification for the killing of innocent people, and I expect you of all people to understand that. However, that didnt matter, as long as you could prove political points, or some other crap, while innocent people were killed by Israeli airplanes and shelling.
Its amazing how you insist on killing us, but at the same time, argue your innocence and insist on us admitting we’re responsible for our own deaths. If you want to kill us, at least spare us your defence. To have to put up with your bombs AND preposterous arguments of being people of peace, is a bit much.
Pure hatred.
If someone said “I don’t believe any Muslim is innocent.” they would get shouted down.
So consider this your “shouted down”, habibi.
UN resolution is one thing and the reality on the ground is another.
‘Might is Right’ and that is how the world plays this game, be it a regional
player or a global one.
Ego, patriotism, votes, personal interests, lobby agendas, etc., etc.
I think peace will be there only when there is a honest broker and when
one truly cares for the other. So long as one dominates, oppresses, and occupies other peoples’ lands, there will be only ‘pieces’.
Ethan – you keep on talking about hatred and quoting Hadith/s that are
related to certain events and time. If you are in the US, then please contact an Islamic scholar. He should be able to answer your questions.
I’m curious to know – what is your intention?
In my honest opinion, the conflict will never end. There is no such thing as long term peace plan applied here, and no such think will be applicable for this case. The solution? World war 3, after that the power of everycountry will be balanced because of the lack of nukes.
I know, im a retard.
Mahmmod, you say you hope everyone will stop and respect 1701-
I went to the link you provided, and in the FIRST PARAGRAPH 1701 recalls (meaning it INCLUDES) all previous resolutions on Lebanon ,and in particular those resolutions which told Hezbollah to disarm, like:
1559 calling fo Hezbollah to disarm
and
1680 calling for Hezbollah to disarm.
You think they’re going to disarm now?
If you do, I have some swamp land to sell you, along the levees in New Orleans.
1707 pointedly reiterates the call for Hezbollah to disarm: “- full implementation of the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, and of resolutions 1559 (2004) and 1680 (2006), that require the disarmament of all armed groups in Lebanon, so that, pursuant to the Lebanese cabinet decision of July 27, 2006, there will be no weapons or authority in Lebanon other than that of the Lebanese state;”
Know when that will happen?
When this happens:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000067FTM/104-4447640-0358309?redirect=true
And if they’re not going to disarm (if you think they will, I have some Enron stock I’ll sell you) and in fact keep stockpining rockets and missiles as they have for the last six years, many in underground bunkers beneith schools, hospitals, and apartment buildings (and what kind of sub-humans store rocket arsenals where their children play and sleep — in the civilized world we arrest parents for child endangermenwho merely leave children unattended in a hot automobile – and launch them at another country’s civilians knowing full well the other country will fire back) do you think that’s going to lead to any lasting peace?
Or do even believe for a moment that Heezbollah wants peace between Isreal and Lebanon, ever?
If so, I know this guy who has a gold watch with a dozen 22 caret diamonds he’ll sell you for twenty bucks, postage included.
Batzi,
A word of caution though, whatever you say will always be misconstrued. Ibn already has you “admitting†that the injustices done to Arabs during the 1948 War of Independence were done because they were the “wrong race.â€Â
Shachar said the following here:
https://mahmood.tv/?p=2604#comment-31014
His exact words were: Of all the “crimes†you accuse Israel, the only one I’ll actually acknowledge as a crime is #2.
In light of this Batzi, I do NOT accept you saying that I somehow “admitted” Shachar did this or that. The proof is in the pudding. HE said it, and I have NOT made anything up. I am frankly getting really, REALLY sick of your mis-representations. You put “admitted” in quotes as if I have somehow concocted an admittance from Shachar, even though it is plain for all to see that he has said it himself.
Enough with your lies, woman.
————————–
Ethan,
If someone said “I don’t believe any Muslim is innocent.†they would get shouted down.
I belive someone already did. His alias was Steve The American, although I prefered Steve the Confederate as it was more fitting of his views on life. And as I recall, he was tolerated here for quite some time.
Forgive me if I missed any condemnations you made of Steve, but where were you when he was busy blaming all Muslims for Sep11th? Or are you simply the defender of all things Israeli?
-Ibn
Sorry, above (Anonymous) was me, Ibn!
-Ibn
Ibn,
Since there is some misunderstanding, I’ll clarify.
In your ever repeated “Crime #2”, you claim that during the 48 war Jews deported some and massacared other villages. That part I have no choice but to accept, due to the simple fact that it happened.
Batzi’s resentment is not with this fact, however. He claims, and I have to admit that I no longer follow your rants in order to verify this, that you attribute my “acknowledgment” to racism. I will make it woefully clear here, so that we can put this argument to rest (don’t worry – I’m not really naive enough to think you would):
The 1948 deportations, regrettable though they are, were NOT done due to racism. The entire Zionism movement, from its very begining, was aimed at survival. Nothing more, nothing less. After it has managed, to a great degree, to secure this survival (Iranian nukes, hopefully, nonwithstanding), it’s very easy to say “oh, things weren’t that bad”. The simple truth of the matter is that things WERE that bad, and that the holocaust was just a huge climax, not an isolated occurance, of killing Jews merely for being Jews.
In fact, the Zionism movement did what it could to achieve above goals in a fair way that will not hurt others. This is not to say that all things that happened, even initially, were indeed fair. This is just to say that the malice you attribute to said actions is of your own invention, and aimed at making the “logic” achieve your predetermined conclusion goal.
I’ll add one more thing before I can go back to ignoring your identically themed posts. In your mind’s eye, that single crime that is Zionism’s wish to make the Jewish folks survive is justification to anything. You will not condemn war crimes, killing of innocents, nor even embezelment of Arabs of Arabs or killing by Arabs of Arabs, nor any other loathsome behaviour, merely because it was all done “due to Israel’s horrendous crimes”.
I am idely wondering whether there is anything, and I do mean anything at all, that you would consider worth condemning if done by a Palestinian.
To sum up the jist of my reply – I acknowledged the actual occurances which you call “Crime #2”. I did not, and will not, call them “racism”. They were acts in a bloody and messy war, and the Israeli side is by no means the sole (nor even the primary reason) this war was bloody and messy. If that was not clear enough from my original text, I do appologize.
Shachar
I love Shachar’s argument:
I’m glad the survival of the Zionist movement was not based on any kind of racism, or injustice to the Palestinians. No offense, guys, we love you, we really do, but in order for us to survive, we need to get rid of you. Regrettable?? I think that is an insult to everyone that was deported out of your need for survival. I think its far more than regrettable. Me telling my husband that his mother is a pain is regrettable. This is illegal, unfair, unjust and racist, whatever your claims that it was not racist. I don’t think the Zionists deported the Jews living in Palestine, did they, to make room for the incoming Jews?
As for things being bad for the Jews, well, it wasn’t our doing. Go take it up with European Christians who perpetuated the Holocaust. The Holocaust was the climax of hatred for the Jews in Europe by Europeans. Any reason we need to take blame for that too? I just don’t get it. If European Christians killed Jews for being Jews, then in order for those Jews to survive, they needed to take over Palestinian land and create refugees of an entire people?? Brilliant reasoning.
Dear Ibn,
In case you did not get it the first, second, third or fourth time, here it is again. Shachar never admitted to “crime number 2” as the result of “racism”:
The 1948 deportations, regrettable though they are, were NOT done due to racism. The entire Zionism movement, from its very begining, was aimed at survival. Nothing more, nothing less.
To sum up the jist of my reply – I acknowledged the actual occurances which you call “Crime #2″. I did not, and will not, call them “racismâ€Â. They were acts in a bloody and messy war, and the Israeli side is by no means the sole (nor even the primary reason) this war was bloody and messy. If that was not clear enough from my original text, I do appologize.”
Can I use your own words and ask, do I rest my case?
Lujayn,
This is but one example of how words get so easily misconstrued.
It does not matter how many times, I quote reliable sources, quote other people on these posts, there will always be someone who will either ignore them, misinterpret them (probably more deliberately than not deliberately). You too would soon be upset and feel you are climbing an uphill battle. I can feel your frustration and I sincerely identify with it.
It is good to have you back!
Kind regards
Batzi
So Batzi, whats your uphill battle? To convince us of what?
My uphill battle is to find an Israeli who will acknowledge that he/she is responsible for 1948, and not some vague bloody and messy war, or the Holocaust, or the powers that may be. 1948 didnt fall out of the sky. 1948 didnt happen because someone somewhere did whatever. It happened because somone (Jews) was wronged somewhere else (Europe and elsewhere) and decided to find a weak link (Palestine) and take it out on them (Palestinians). I would also like to find an Israeli that will acknowledge that what is happening now is the result of that, not the result of some inherent hatred for Jews. If there is any hatred now, it is acquired from what Israel has been to Palestinians. I dont hate you for who you are, I hate you for what you are doing and continue to do. I dont know you personally, so I dont hate you on the personal level. What you stand for, I hate. Plain and simple.
Lujayn
Shachar’s was not an ‘argument’. It was a response to Ibn’s completely one-sided set of questions. Shachar shows the good manners of answering questions without complaining that the set of questions is completely one-sided.
You then extrapolate from Shachar and say “I just don’t get it. If European Christians killed Jews for being Jews, then in order for those Jews to survive, they needed to take over Palestinian land and create refugees of an entire people?? Brilliant reasoning.”
I only have a very few minutes to reply. So lets give a very brief summary.
The British and French won more than 1.1 million square miles for the Arabs from the Ottoman empire. The British Balfour Declaration, aspiring for a home for the Jews in much less than 1 percent of this land has been described by Ibn as a declaration of war, and justified the continuing violence and killing by the Arab population of the Jews from that point on – as again admitted by Ibn. It was orchestrated by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the antisemite friend of Hitler.
In 1937 the British Government Peel commission recommended a 2 state solution – the Arab one being much larger than the Jewish one. The Jews agreed, the Arabs refused. Same thing happened with the UN resolution of 1947.
In 1948 the Jews declared the state of Israel, as agreed by the UN. All Arab surrounding countries declared war and invaded.
A bit different from your story.
Please do some unbiased research
Brian
The war has been a total mess for Israel and now Lebanon is setting the rules……
Why are the operations still going? to cover the loss? or i think it is because its the weekend….
Oh well, you are talking about racism again….and defending zionism and israel are poor people victims of the Hizbollah…..my friend even if katyushas were fired at ‘occupied palestine’, it would only make a hole in the road, as for the 2 and 3 ton bombs The zionist criminals have been using and the illegal bombs these are nothing right?
I am totally discusted by Israel, and all of the people who are like you Batzi, Schachar, Lujayn……all the people who are defending Israel in this illegal unfair war….
I can`t believe it more 1100 people are dead just because you don`t want to free the illegal prisoners and you don`t want to free the Shebaa farms….if you are stubborn, the lebanese are more stubborn we will keep this a land of fire and think whatever you want to think i don`t care got nothing to lose.
keep defending Israel….I think they are right, there are opinion formers that Israel has employed to make a media battle.
You just don`t give up do you? Keep justifying the killing and the destruction and the attacks on innocent peopl e in all the excuses possible,
This war made me realise more and more the atrocities and the hatred which is cultivated in the people of Israel, (not all) i have some very good israeli friends.
You are all talking about racism, well i think the biggest racists are the Israeli zionists, the arab Israelis don`t get shelters while the zionists get shelters fully equipped….mmmm…..Kids in Lebanon and Palestine are all potential terrorists….,,,,…..Let`s kill them all…..Let`s destroy Lebanon because it is asking for its legitimate rights….mmmm…..
think about it.
Discusting !!!!
Sorry Lujayn you are not included in this….i put it by mistake….
Brian,
‘In 1948 the Jews declared the state of Israel, as agreed by the UN. All arab surrounding countries declared war and invaded.’
we know what the UN stands for now don`t we? It is an american/zionist tool which totally supports israel.
It only decided to meet and make a decision after one month of the war….i guess it was the holidays for them…. or the weekend maybe was too long….
I think it was maybe a time span for Israel to hide its shame and do more killings among civilians and claim they are all potential hezbollah….
The UN!!!!they even refused to shelter the Qana people from being massacred. They are part of this crime against the Lebanese people and the Lebanese Government. Who is using the VITO to continue the killing and kidnapping of palestinians…..building the wall…..taking all the palestinians as hostages….10000 i think maybe more…..Israel is even kidnapping the government of Palestine……they respect and value the people. They are using all the peaceful means to be good neighbors.
Thanks our good neighbors. we are lucky to have you.
Lujayn,
I really think you are being unfair to Shachar and perhaps even somewhat to myself.
The whole purpose of this debate is to try and establish some form of dialogue.
Both Shachar and myself have admitted to wrongdoings on the part of the founders of the State of Israel. Those wrongdoings were committed long before either one of us was born. All we can do is adnmit to them acknowledge them, apologize for them and try to move on.
Schachar’s expression of regret which I believe is sincere and deep is only met by contempt and mockery. What do you want from us before we can continue a proper dialogue (if it is at all possible!?!?!)
Either you accept our expression of regret (and might it even be possible for you to acknowledge some of the things that were done wrong by the Arab Palestinians as well?) and learn to accept that we cannot change the past, and try and move on, or we get nowhere.
Hope you will accept our outstretched hand offering goodwill for dialogue and better understanding.
Yours most sincerely
Batzi
With regard to my previous post:
Please do not make capital out of the fact that I had to rush it and vacate the internet in a hurry. Obviously there is much more for me to point out: such as the fact that the Arab violence from the early 1920’s onwards was despite the fact that the Jews were buying their land legally; and that there were as many Jewish refugees from Arab lands as Palestinian refugees from Israel.
Also, with regrd to civilian deaths in Lebanon, we all deeply regret any such deaths. But why do you not look towards Hezbollah, and their brazen use of civilian shields, when allocating blame? Or at their creating their weapon arsenals in homes and hospitals?
Why do you not look at their use of ball-bearings in their bombs, and their brazen targetting of civilians for the last six years?
Brian
Ramy
“we know what the UN stands for now don`t we? It is an american/zionist tool which totally supports israel. ”
So how come it endorsed the Arab calumny that “Zionism is racism”? or countless other anti-Israel resolutions?
An impartial observer might think that your conspiracy theories reflect no reality other than your own mind. Shame there are so few impartial observers
Brian
Ramy and everyone else,
Just saw this and thought it might interest some of you.
,
AP has learned an important lesson from the Qana photo
staging kerfuffle and the NY Times. You can get away with
publishing a lie if you publish a retraction a few days
later. Here’s the retraction, which will not attract nearly
the attention of the lie, since most papers will probably
not publish it, and if they do, it will be on page D76, just
after the female escort ads
(http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=22036&only).
Thursday, doctors said that the 5-year-old Palestinian girl initially believed to have been killed by an Israeli military strike Wednesday apparently died after sustaining head injuries during a fall from a swing in the same area shortly before the strike.(AP Photo/Adel Hana)
As with previous cases of fraudulent claims of Israeli massacres, the truth will be submerged under the slime of media and UN assertions of our guilt. And when truth emerges, its life will have a far shorter span. There are still 492,000 Google entries for the “Jenin Massacreâ€Â, which never happened. The truth is irrelevant.
Batzi
Batzi, my response to Shachar is not contempt or mockery, its sarcasm.
Regret is worth diddly-squat if its not accompanied by action. Basically, Shachar’s argument (and yours) was its regrettable, now lets all live in peace. You cant live in peace that way. You need to rectify the wrongs before you can just move on. How do you propose to move on? You’ve definitely moved on, but the people who are still wronged cant move on. Until you do something about that, then regret is worthless.
As for the Jenin, Qana, and other massacres that didnt happen, in your opinion, despite the hundreds and hundreds of independent reports, investigations and photos and videos taken (you must have one hell of a conspiracy tendency if you think EVERYTHING was doctored), well, some say the Holocaust didnt happen either.
And you expect me to believe you when you say you extend your hand in goodwill? For God’s sake, give me a break. I have friends in Beirut involved in relief. They’ve seen bodies of men, women and children, lots of them. Could they be imagining them? Could the thousands of bombs dropped on Lebanon possibly be just targetting fields of flowers, despite being dropped on civilian residential quarters nationwide? No massacres??? You have got to be kidding. What is your definition of massacre, solely the Holocaust?
While Palestinians claim their atrocities (suicide bombers), for different reasons, you guys insist that you cant possibly do any wrong. There is no need to argue Palestinian suicide bombings because the culprit is obvious. However, Israel does equally horrendous atrocities, if not more, and you say they didnt happen. If thats the way you move on, you’re not going to go far.
The last comment was posted by Lujayn
Lujayn,
Then let’s get back to your original reply:
More like “but in order to survive we need to buy your land. When you start killing our people as a result of that, we, for some strange reason, refuse to just be slaughtered, and defend ourselves.
I know it’s hard to believe, but at the time, the main cause for the Arab hostilities was because they thought they could get away with it. It was a constant downhill from there, the 1948 events included.
Here are two parties, each with many inside currents. One party decides to act, the other party responds, the first responds again, and things get our of hand, for over 80 years. The reason this is of any interest is because one of the parties was not smart enough, and lost a major battle in this ongoing war, once at 1948 and another at 1967. Since then, it is generally agreed that the other party is the stronger one military force wise.
Does that make any difference as far as “right and wrong” go? The only reason this is an armed conflict in the first place is because, back in 1920, the Arabs refused the idea that the Jews should buy land in large scale,and did so violently. Had they not chose violence, things would probably have been vastly different.
Did Israel do wrong? Of course it did. Lots of time. Leaders in Israel were, occasionally, dumb, power hungry, trigger happy and violent. Sometimes they had the best of intentions, but employed underlins which were all of the above. The result were hundred of lifes lost, on both sides. Yes.
My question is – so what? What good is dwelling on this now, being as it is that the second party has much more to answer under those very same criteria of judgment.
A massacare is deliberate and indiscriminate killing of innocent people on a large scale. It is, in deed, a war crime. What a massacare isn’t:
– Hizbollah’s killing of innocent Israelies – it’s deliberate, but not large scale (and not for lack of trying, mind you).
– Israel’s bombing in Beirut – it’s not intentional killing of innocents (unless you explain how dropping leaflets saying “we are going to bomb here – get out” sits with “intentional”).
– Israel’s actions in Jenin – putting aside the question of “innocence”, which is, of course, going to be contended, I don’t think a death toll of 59 out of a camp of several tens of thousands (with dense population) can be called “large scale”.
But I’m rooting to something even more fundemental. I would like you to answer this. Why isn’t the death toll higher? I’m sure you realize that even smarter deployment of the same number of bombs already dropped on Lebanon could have wielded a much higher death roll. For one thing, you could attack outside the same one neighbourhood (map at bottom), and not drop flyers prior to bombing residential areas.
If Israel is really after performing a massacare, why do it?
Could it be that not all Israel tries, but fails to avoid hitting innocents while still insisting on attacking the military targets?
Shachar
Shachar,
Ahh, I see. You acknowledge that the displacement and massacering of non-Jewish civilians by armed Jews in 1948 (Crime # 2) happened and was wrong, but you do not think the motivation behind it was racism. It was purely survival. Survival of what? Survival of a Jewish-only state, founded on a land predominantly made up of non-Jews, after wave after wave of illegal only-Jew immigration. This, you are telling me, is not racism. You are right of course. And the moon is made of green cheese.
You will not condemn war crimes, killing of innocents, nor even embezelment of Arabs of Arabs or killing by Arabs of Arabs, nor any other loathsome behaviour, merely because it was all done “due to Israel’s horrendous crimesâ€Â.
I will not, or I have not? I have not, because we are not talking about them. We are talking about Israel, and the smallest atom of Israeli society – you. And even if I did blast some Arabs at something their governments have done, how will that make a difference to my arguments against Israel? Will it simply make you feel better if I did – do your emotions need a fine petting before your reason can kick in? Or do you feel that some Arab condemnation on my part would take away some of the brunt of my Israeli condemnation, because I will “understand” why the Israelis did what they did? Is this why? Listen: What Arabs do to each other, is a non-sequitor in this case. Focus your attention on the subject matter – Israel.
I am idely wondering whether there is anything, and I do mean anything at all, that you would consider worth condemning if done by a Palestinian.
I have lost some Palestinian friends, because I dared question and criticize the wisdom of the PLO, and its actions. This fact however, should have no bearing on you whatsoever, as it does not concern you. We are talking about your country, and its crimes.
———————————————–
Batzi,
So far as I can tell, Shachar condemns and acknowledges Crime#2 perpetuated by the great heroes of Israel in 1948. His mypopia however doesnt allow him to see that the motivation was racism. Nevertheless, at the end of the day, there was an armed Jew, overlooking an unarmed gunned down Palestinian. He doesnt think it was racism, although I think that if that same Palestinian was wearing a skullcap and had the star of david tatooed on his forehead, he wouldnt have been lying in a pool of his own blood. Of course, if the Palestinian did that, he obviously wouldnt be making an overtly religious/racial statement. Silly me.
To his credit however Batzi, and to your liability, I can say that Shachar does seem to have a very intact moral compass. Enough to say for example that the actions taken in 1948 by your own countrymen – the crux of Crime #2 – were flat out wrong. You however, cant even begin to unconditionally admit that. Even plain murder to you, as in this case, is somehow, not acknowledged. The over all emotion I feel towards your stance here, is simply, surprise. I do not comprehend this psychology. (pathology?). In a very academic sense, it is really quite interesting. Interesting of course, until the blood spills. Then of course, as someone previously said, its a matter of survival.
-Ibn
Ibn,
I’m not talking about questioning the wisdom of actions by Palestinians. I’m talking about questioning the morality of actions.
Shachar
Lujayn,
Before I will respond to your post, let me point out yet again, how my words have been misconstrued. According to Ibn, I “cannot even begin to unconditionally admit that…actions taken in 1948 by my countrymen were flat out wrong.”
Could you please point out to him the content of my post to you and perhaps explain it in simpler English?
Or perhpas even that will be futile as admitting that he was wrong about Shachar’s argument meant Ibn was wrong and I wa right? I hope the readers of this blog are intelligent enough to see through his baseless accusations of me.
In any case we are moving on.
Lujayn, by me offering to admit and acknowledging that the founders of my state had carried out some wrongdoings in 1948, I am not suggesting in any way that we just forget it and move on. What I am suggesting is that once we acknowledge it, admit it, aplogize for it, which in my view is the essential step to continuing a dialogue is that we discuss ways to rectify it and make up for such actions.
Does such an approach make sense to you?
Or should I outright offer to vacate my home in Israel and hand the key over to whoever owned the land prior to building my home there?
Let’s be sensible in how we appraoch such a painful issue to both sides!
I truly believe in a dialogue as a means of solving problems. But even dialogues have certain sequences that must be adhered to.
Regardin g the accusation of my denial of the extent of loss of human life damage caused to civilians by the attacks.
I am not denying the fact that civilians were the unfortunate victims of this unnecessary war. All I am saying is that here is an admission by the doctors who treated that young girl. They are the ones who claimed that she died of causes other than the Israeli attacks in Gaza. The damage however was already done as the photo was originally circulated with a caption stating that this little girl was a victim of Israeli attacks.
And as Schachar pointed out the Jenin Massacre” is still ingrained in people’s mind as a massacre. To discuss what the definition of a “massacre” is would be unfair but for some reason when the newspapers claim that thousands of people were murdered in Jenin and when the actual numbers come up, they turn out to be much much less is, in my view, deliberate disinformation. I was recently in Vancouver B.C. and bumped into an anti-Israeli demonstration. When I asked one of the participants why they were not mentioning the Israeli civilian victims of this war (who as Shachar pointed out were deliberately targeted by Hizbollah), he told me that “only 100 Israeli civilians were killed!”
Now, you tell me, Lujayn, 59 civilians killed in Jennin are a “massacre” and 100 Israeli civilians killed by Hezollah are “just one hundred civilians?”
Yes, some people deny the Holocaust ever happened. Some claim that it did not happen to the extent that the Jews would like the world to believe it happened. When the American and Russians and other allied forces freed the camps and documented what they saw, were they already then Zionist agents as some would claim?
“Fortunately” for the Jews and other victims of the Holocaust, the Nazis kept perfect records of what was going on. They kept names, numbers, procedures, accounts of expriments performed. All these were found by the Allies.
Will have to get off this computer, but would hope , Lujayn that we can continue our debate in a civilized and mutually repectful manner.
Yours
Batzi
you guys are denying the fact that Israel is massacring people in Lebanon?
Hahahaha
Good
how rude is that and what was the source again? little green footballs? haha
whatever……keep lying to yourselves….keep your eyes blinded by your masters…..have a nice life. Thanks
Ramy,
Did or did not Israeli distribute pamphlets before bombings warning people to get out of the bombed areas?
Shachar
Batzi,
What I am suggesting is that once we acknowledge it, admit it, aplogize for it, which in my view is the essential step to continuing a dialogue is that we discuss ways to rectify it and make up for such actions.
You said it. You said the a-word. Acknowledge. It would also seem, Batzi, that you are willing to acknowledge “…that the founding of my state carried some wrongdoings…”. Well this is a very welcome development. It is a step in the right direction. Definately a shift from your previous position when you didnt want to acknowledge any wrongdoing because you were wondering what benefit there would be to you. Im glad you snapped out of your OJ-Simpson’s attorney mode.
Now the final step is defining what “some of the wrongdoings of the foundations of my state” are exactly. I submit that although plentiful, probably the most overtly barbaric acts were the forced expulsions and annihilations of entire Palestinian villagers and the towns they resided in that occured. In other words, the mantle of Crime#2.
It is really quite interesting to see a change in position. Needless to say, you have made my day. Perhaps the very fact of me hounding you about it over the past month initially put you on the defensive, and would not allow you to give ground. Once I lay off a little bit, you came to. An interesting psychological dynamic. Sheesh. Women.
—————————————-
Shachar,
I’m not talking about questioning the wisdom of actions by Palestinians. I’m talking about questioning the morality of actions.
Thats included in what I mean.
-Ibn
Thanks for calling my comment; ” a step in the right direction,” Ibn.
However,for your information Ibn, I have acknowledged and admitted to those wrongdoings long ago.
On July 27th, 9:25 pm on “Smart Move Sherlock,” I said:
“Ibn, I will never deny that Arabs were kicked out of their homes during the 1948 war.”
At that time, I also said:”If you are willing to accept that stipulation and change the language of the crime by eliminating the reference to “race,†then yes, I will admit to that. But as it stands now, I cannot acknowledge it because it is simply not true.”
On another post, “If you are not with us…” On July 24th at 2:08 a.m., Sunrunner wrote to you saying:
“And Batzi did not say that what happened in 1948 is “right† in fact if you read her words carefully, you will will see that she agrees that it should not have happened. She did take issue for the “reason†as to why it happened  from her perspective. At least that was my reading of it. ”
I wish you had paid closer attention to my words. It could have saved us all much pain and aggrevation.
Let’s hope we can all learn from such situations and indeed move on.
Kind regards
Batzi
Ramy,
Just to add to Shachar’s words.
Whatever you may say about the Israeli army, it does its best endeavours not to target civilians. It has come a long long way from the Israeli army of the early stages of the State of Israel.
It was one of our Prime Ministers, Golda Meir, who said to Arab leaders:
We may forgive you for killing our children, but we will never forgive you for forcing us to kill yours.”
Ramy, unlike what you keep repeating like a mantra,saying that Hezbollah and its fighters will die for their causes, we, Israelis are prepared to live for our causes. Perhaps one day, you and Hezbollah fighters will learn the meaning of the sanctity of life.
You say you do not like a source with a name such as : “little green footballs.”
How about the Daily Telegraph? Perhaps more suitable and more credible? Look at what I read there recently:
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,20116279-5001021,00.html
Can you please tell me for what cause was the baby going to be martyred?
Batzi
Batzi,
Yes, I know and have read those quotes which you have stated before. However, you were being contradictory. In the opening of me asking you to acknowledge those gruesome crimes, your position was “why should I, if only to see your smiling face in Tel Aviv?”. Forgetting history already Batzi? Please dont. You will need it in your acknowledgement of Crime#1, which I am getting to.
Anyway, now, (finally), you are being more coherent in your full, and unmitigated acknowledgement, of the main crux of Crime#2, with no ifs and buts. And for that, I have stated that you made a great step forward.
Congrats on stopping from being contradictory.
Now, regarding the motivation for Crime#2, you do not think it was racial/religious. Please read my earlier paragraph, which I will paste here:
I said:
So far as I can tell, Shachar condemns and acknowledges Crime#2 perpetuated by the great heroes of Israel in 1948. His mypopia however doesnt allow him to see that the motivation was racism. Nevertheless, at the end of the day, there was an armed Jew, overlooking an unarmed gunned down Palestinian. He doesnt think it was racism, although I think that if that same Palestinian was wearing a skullcap and had the star of david tatooed on his forehead, he wouldnt have been lying in a pool of his own blood. Of course, if the Palestinian did that, he obviously wouldnt be making an overtly religious/racial statement. Silly me.
Intertwined in this paragraph, is the position that the Zionist-Jews were actively filtering out Jews from non-Jews, and removing them, or killing them. This is a racial act, in any way you can slice it. There is no way around it. This is the last element of Crime#2. Although this is a pretty disgusting act, it is minor in this debate.
The bigger point is that since you seem to have accepted the main crux of Crime#2, you will notice if you read back in the archives of what I have said, that it is very closely related to Crime#1.
So the question becomes, do you also acknowledge Israeli Crime#1? I guess I will also pose the same to Shachar.
Crime 1 and 2 information located here, as I am sure you know:
https://mahmood.tv/?p=2604#comment-29529
-Ibn
IDF general: Troops lacking food can steal from Lebanese stores!
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/750384.html
Batzi,
are you from the army? are you the one who is firing at people ?
did you see the live broadcasting of the massacres?
this is way too much its rude !!!! so you are saying that 1200 peopl who died all fell while playing basketball and they were martyred come on@!!@
This is way too much!!!!!!
The Israeli murders in Lebanon :
1062 Lebanese (30% under 12)
44 Israeli
20 Sri Lankan (by israel)
8 Canadian (by israel)
7 Brazilian (by israel)
1 Nigerian (by israel)
1 Jordanian (by israel)
1 Chinese (by israel on UN)
1 Finnish (by israel on UN)
1 Canadian (by israel on UN)
1 Austrian (by israel on UN)
Military:
58 Lebanese
103 Israeli
112 Hizballah (declared)
Displaced:
~1,000,000 Lebanese
25% of total population
How many israeli civilians are hurt? can`t you understand that the fighter jets were targetting anything moving…..pamphlets!!!! to get easier targets…
Murderers!!!!and you also are a murderer for defending the practices of Israel!!!!
Finally i see we have won your dirty war ! the legend of the mighty Israeli army is broken. Hope you heard Olmert and his lame excuses for the war which none of its objectives were achieved; we won you lost!!!!Hope you heard nasrallah on the other hand!
we will rebuild as soon as possible and as long as Israel has Chebaa and the prisoners Hizbollah will be your grave diggers!
Batzi,
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,20116279-5001021,00.html
Can you please tell me for what cause was the baby going to be martyred?
What does this have to do with lebanon ?/??
or the Lebanese?
or Hizbollah???
What are you tryin to say that all the arabs are liers and killers and baby mollesters>???? is this what you are trying to prove?
Is this what israel is trying to kill all the arabs??
please use good references to back your arguments/
Ramy,
I am not at all underestimating the gravity of civilians killed, be they Lebanese, Palestinians, Canedians, or Israelies.
All I am commenting to is on your constant referral to Arabs ready to die for their causes- a theme that runs like a golden thread throughout your comments. And please do not deny it. I could go through every single blog, every single day and pick them out. I don’t have the time for that. The reference from the Daily Telegraph has got everything to do with your theme-dying for causes!
Sorry if you do not like my sources. Al least I try to back my argument by using them….
Batzi
Ibn,
I just read your post and I would like to thank you for the manner in which you replied. My response deserves some thought and I will therefore only respond later when I have the time. I just wanted to gratefully acknowledge it as I know you like to here the “A” word 🙂
Batzi
Batzi,
This conflict has been going on for almost a century. Whats a couple more days? Take your time.
-Ibn
Mahmood,
Just came across this joke – this is SO funny! 🙂
Abul Abed and Olmert
(Abul Abed (father of Abed) in Lebanon is like Little Johnny in USA.):
—————————————-
One day, Olmert was sitting in his office wondering how to invade Lebanon when his telephone rang.
“Hallo, Mr. Olmert!” a heavily accented voice said. “This is Abul Abed,down at the tea house in Beirut! I am callin` to tell ya dat we are officially declaring war on you, yes you!”
“Well” Olmert replied, “This is indeed important news! How big is your army?”
“Right now,” said Abul Abed, after a moments calculation “there is myself, my cousin Mustafa, me next-door-neighbor Abou khaled, and the whole team from the tea house. That makes eight!”
Olmert paused. “I must tell you Abul Abed, that I have one million men in my army waiting to move on my command.”
“Holy jeez,” said Abul Abed. “I’ll have to call ya back!” Sure enough, the next day, Abul Abed called again. “Mr. Olmert, the war is still on! We have managed to acquire some infantry equipment!”
“And what equipment would that be Abul Abed?”, Olmert asked.
“Well sir, we have two Mercedes 180, and a truck.”
Olmert sighed. “I must tell you Abul Abed, that I have 16,000 tanks and 14,000 armoured personnel carriers. Also I’ve increased my army to one and a half million since we last spoke.”
“Ya lateef”, said A Abul Abed, “I’ll be getting back to ya.”
Sure enough, Abul Abed rang again the next day. “Mr. Olmert , the war is still on! We have managed to get ourselves airborne! We modified a helicopter with a couple of shotguns in the cockpit, and four more neighbors have joined us as well!”
Olmert was silent for a minute then cleared his throat. “I must tell you Abul Abed that I have 10,000 bombers and 20,000 fighter planes. My military complex is surrounded by laser-guided, surface-to-air missile sites. And since we last spoke, I’ve increased my army to TWO MILLION!”
“Lah lah lah lah,” said Abul Abed, “I’ll have to call you back.”
Sure enough, Abul Abed called again the next day. “Mr. Olmert I am sorry to have to tell you dat we have had to call off this war.”
“I’m sorry to hear that” said Olmert. “Why the sudden change of heart?”
“Well, sir,” said Abul Abed, “we’ve all sat ourselves down and had a long chat, and come to realize there’s no way we can feed two million prisoners.”
———————————–
LOL! 🙂
-Ibn
Author
brilliant! so Arab, find the impossible and use that as an excuse! 😆
Interesting Ibn,
I remeber gorwing up in Israel reading a similar joke except that time the conversation was between Moshe Dayan and Gamal Abdul Nassar and the two million prisoners referred to the Egyptian army…
Batzi
Hi Ibn,
Now that we have all had a good laugh, we can get back to some serious issues such as, Crime #1.
This is the burglary. This is Crime Number 1. ”
“The problem here, is that ownership of land, never means soverignty over it.
Then one fine day, you declare a new country, along racial lines. So naturally, since this demographic is mostly Jews, we are going to now make a nation, for Jews! ”
An innocent, uneducated (in the history of the middle east) bystander would really think after reading your words that Israel hijacked its sovereignty!
What about a declaration called the Balfour Declaration? What about a 1947 UN REsolution 181 calling for the establishment of two states, one Jewish, one Arab, Ibn?
In November 1947 the Jews were given statehood, granted sovereignty by an international Organization called the UN. This same Organization has recently voted on a resolution(welcomed and applauded by all sides) calling for a ceasefire in the middleast, Do you expect the Jews of 1947-1948 to say:”No, thank you, world, thank you for your vote granting us sovereignty but we really cannot take you up on that gesture!”
You can call the UN “an outside mob” all you want Ibn, but nations still abide (more or less) by its resolutions. In fact, I recall representatives of the Arab League of Nations recently rushing to the UN (your “outside mob”) urging it to vote on a ceasefire resolution. If the UN is so bad, then why is it so good?
So, could we chose what we want to abide by or what not to abide by? That is fine with me. The Jews of 1948 chose to abide by the resolution calling for two states. I am glad they did! The Arabs chose not to abide by it. I am only sorry they did not.
Ibn, I truly believe you direct your anger at the wrong entity. The Jews of 1947-1948 did what any sane person or nation would have done and that is take the gift of statehood. It was a one in a million opportunity. We were simply lucky, Ibn!
So I hereby denounce “crime number one” as such.
With regards to “Crime # 2,” which followed, I have already expressed my views on it and believe that we have reached some agreement at least on part of it.
Scrolling down your response to Shachar, Ibn, you write:
“Yes, I AM hate driven.”
Ibn, we all have reason to hate! I could hate the Spanish for expelling my ancestors from Spain in 1492, I could hate the Russian peasants who murdered my uncle because according to them he was a “Christ killer.” I could also hate those Germans who only 60 years ago (almost as long as the State of Israel has been in existence, a time, as you claim, that is responsible for the hate you bear today) tortured my parents.
I was recently in Alaska. I spoke to some innuates. Can you imagine how they felt when Russia sold Alaska to America in 1876 and Russia did not even own Alaska!!!!!!!Talk about ownership and sovreignty….
Are the innuates going around blowing Russians? Are they hate driven? perhaps but one would never know it.
I could go on and on and provide numerous examples but enough said.
Many of us have reasons to hate. Fortunately for the world, many have learned to overcome that ugre.
I can only hope that, for your own sake, Ibn, you can direct your energy into more productive directions (and I mean it sincerely).
Best wishes
Batzi
Batzi,
*Sigh*. This is a mostly repeat from what I have posted earlier. You asked the same questions earlier more or less, I answered them, and now you are asking them again. I dont want to repeat myself, but here goes:
What about a declaration called the Balfour Declaration?
What about it? The Balfour declaration was the Jews, asking the British, to promise them a home in Palestine, in spite of the occupied Arabs. Does this seem right to you Batzi? (Yes/No)
Let us reverse the situation. The British invade and occupy Israel. The Arabs ask the British for a promise of their own homeland in Israel. (For majority Arabs, not Jews). More and more Arabs pour in. The British say: “Ok, sure.” Would you allow this to fly? (Yes/No)
What about a 1947 UN REsolution 181 calling for the establishment of two states, one Jewish, one Arab, Ibn?
Again, lets reverse: The British have occupied Israel. Arabs and Jews are warring. So the UN comes in and says “ok, Jews, you will get a quarter of what you had before: You will get only the Negev desert. Arabs, you will have so and so.” Brazil, Argentina, Japan, and other countries that have absolutely nothing to do with anything in this regard are part of the overwhelming “yes” vote. Would you let that fly? (Yes/No)
Do you expect the Jews of 1947-1948 to say:â€ÂNo, thank you, world, thank you for your vote granting us sovereignty but we really cannot take you up on that gesture!â€Â
Let me reverse it again: If the UN had voted no, do you think the Zionist-Jews would have just sat there and said “Oh well, party’s over. Lets pack up and go to Madagascar.” Of course not. They would have rejected what they would have probably named “the Arab influenced UN” and fought to found their own state anyway. The source of the problem Batzi, is the colonial racially exclusive mindset of Zionism.
So you cannot use the excuse “But the UN said so” because there are umpteen UN resolutions that Israel has not abided by to this date. What is the excuse for that? Either you abide by the UN, or you dont. If you are selective, then you cannot chastize me for also being selective. You filter out and accept what UN resolutions correlate with Zionism. Others, you ignore. This is what your country does. To hell with the UN. But should the UN pass something that suits Zionist Israel’s interests, you will hop on it, to give it a false veneer of legitimacy.
In fact, I recall representatives of the Arab League of Nations recently rushing to the UN (your “outside mobâ€Â) urging it to vote on a ceasefire resolution. If the UN is so bad, then why is it so good?
When this mob votes on where to send the next batch of African medical supplies, it isnt violating rights. When this mob votes on where to hold the next conference to talk about the hole in the ozone, no one is going to care. But when this same mob votes on whether or not you can keep your home or not because some foreign Jews now want to make a home in your territory, then yes, thats a violation of rights. And its wrong.
Are the innuates going around blowing Russians? Are they hate driven?
Are the Americans bulldozing their igloos to make space for settlements? Do the Americans not treat them as equals? Is there anything in the American constitution that remotely indicates that the Innuates cannot be American citizens? Did I really have to spell this out for you?
Ibn, we all have reason to hate! I could hate the Spanish for expelling my ancestors from Spain in 1492,
Do the Spanish today have a state that is in the business of expelling Jews? Or have they changed? They changed. And what did I say about acknowledgement, and change? Didnt I say that if Israel changed, I would “kiss the feet of every Knesset member”? Does that sound like hate to you?
I could also hate those Germans who only 60 years ago (almost as long as the State of Israel has been in existence, a time, as you claim, that is responsible for the hate you bear today) tortured my parents.
Is the Nazi German state that made it a business massacering Jews still in business today? Does the current German state stand for Nazism which tortured your parents? Or do they not denounce it? If Nazi Germany were still around, would you be here typing about forgiveness? Or would you be on your way to Berlin clandestinely on a mission to blow up a bar frequented by SS officers? Could I ask you to “not hate” in this case?
Neither of those entities you mentioned – the Spanish Inquisition, or Nazi Germany, are in existance today. They changed. But we still live in a world where Israel, the entity, is still here, unchanged, and not acknowledging the crimes it has commited in cold blood. And here you are asking me to “not hate”.
If you do not want people to hate your country, then change your country. As the Spanish did. As Germany did. As South Africa did. As America did. Get with the times.
Fortunately for the world, many have learned to overcome that ugre.
Ahh thats great. Perhaps you will simply let those Palestinian refugees back in then.
————————————————-
EItherway, you are no closer to acknowledging Crime#1, or even addressing it. So far Batzi you are ranting about “But its ok because the UN said so” and “Im sorry the Arabs rejected the UN deal”.
Well that doesnt tell me anything. Crime#1 has been methodically laid out for you, in about 6 points if I recall. I think the last 4 were where the violations happened. I want you to do something simple. Go back to my text. Copy/paste my reasoning for why I think they were wrong. Then type in your own counterpoint, to why you think they were not wrong. This way you stay on point. If you agree with the fact that they are immoral, then please, do let me know.
-Ibn
Dear Ibn,
Again, thanks for your response.
I thinkk we are moving forward!
Of all the issues that you raise I agree with you on two. The first is the one relating to the Balfour declaration.
You say:
” The Balfour declaration was the Jews, asking the British, to promise them a home in Palestine, in spite of the occupied Arabs. Does this seem right to you Batzi? (Yes/No)”
To that one I will agree to “no,” as it does not seem right. Having said that though, if you recall , the Jews were willing to settle for a homeland in Uganda a land which was on the agenda along with Argentina where Baron Hirsh had established his ranch.
Then you go on to say (and I have a problem with this one):
“Either you abide by the UN, or you dont. If you are selective, then you cannot chastize me for also being selective.”
True Israel has not abided by all UN resolutions which I agree. But on the other hand, Arab nations did not agree to UN resolution 181 either! And that was long before Israel did not abide by all UN resolutions. So, this time, I will reverse the question and ask you:
“Either you abide by the UN resolution or you don’t, Ibn. (yes/no)?.”
I will also agree that Israel is not right on the issue of the Palestinians as I stated earlier on another post. I am in favour of dismantling the settlements and returning occupied land to whoever it conquesred them from (it should have been Jordan and Egypt, but they for some reason relinquished those lands and left Israel in the midst of a dilemma). Since most of those territories are occupied by Palestinians, then, they are the ones who should get them.
I also believe, Israel as a good neighbour should help the palestinians in setting up a state, help them economically, technologically and educationally as it had done with African nations.. It is in the best interest of both sides.
I will add one more comment on a statement made by Mahmood on “33 Days.” There he says:
“…the changes, positive changes, happening all over the Arab world…”
I truly agree with that statement, Ibn. I think the Arab world has come a long way since the inception of the State of Israel. Many more Arab/Muslim countries recognize Israel’s right to exist, some even have good relations with it. More and more liberal voices, like that of Mahmood, are heard in the Arab world. I think we all welcome these changes.
I will, however, have to disagree with the rest of Mahmood’s statement, as I think Israel is still the only true democracy in the middleast.
Until next time
Batzi
BATZI: Are the innuates going around blowing Russians? Are they hate driven?
IBN: Are the Americans bulldozing their igloos to make space for settlements? Do the Americans not treat them as equals?
Ibn
The Chinese are illigitmately occupying Tibet, treating the Tibetans like crap, and bringing in settlers. So how come the Tibetans don’t go around blowing up Chinese people?
“–”
The Chinese are illigitmately occupying Tibet, treating the Tibetans like crap, and bringing in settlers. So how come the Tibetans don’t go around blowing up Chinese people?
The Chinese occupation of Tibet is on the scale of past and present Israeli occupations? Really? Ill alert the media! Silly media for missing out on all this action so far. Add to that the fact that Tibetan monks, and their Dalai Lama are probably one of the most pacifist movements on the planet. Its like asking me why Quakers, and other pacifists dont resist when under occupation. Because their pacifists! So you cant use that example however because those groups are so far off the middle of the bell curve to matter in this regard.
But I can show you the absurdity of your proposition with this example: Let me put this wagon of ridiculousness into reverse:
If you ask me why the Tibetans didnt resist, let me ask you this: Why did the Israelis in 1948 not resist, like the Tibetans? Whats that? Its ridiculous to not resist? Oh ok. So if Israelis are not willing to emmulate the Tibetan Monks, why do you want the Arabs to?
—————————————————-
Batzi,
Thank you for your responses. I too feel we are gaining ground:
To that one I will agree to “no,†as it does not seem right. Having said that though, if you recall , the Jews were willing to settle for a homeland in Uganda a land which was on the agenda along with Argentina where Baron Hirsh had established his ranch.
Ok, good. The Balfour reason is out then.
True Israel has not abided by all UN resolutions which I agree. But on the other hand, Arab nations did not agree to UN resolution 181 either! And that was long before Israel did not abide by all UN resolutions. So, this time, I will reverse the question and ask you:
“Either you abide by the UN resolution or you don’t, Ibn. (yes/no)?.â€Â
… I think you are mis-understanding my motivation behind the UN statement. Look its very simple:
Your second reason for the countering Crime#1, was in a nutshell, “but the UN said so.” You are legitimizing the breakup of land essentially, “because the UN said so.” So if the word of the UN is the be all and end all of any issue. But your own country, does not follow the UN’s authority. Therefore, it too does not honor UN agreements. So you cannot use the “but the UN said its ok” excuse, because even you do not believe in its legitimacy, by virtue of not obeying its every decision.
So, I hope you can see this logic. Do you concede the “UN arguement” as like you have done with the Balfour one?
I will also agree that Israel is not right on the issue of the Palestinians as I stated earlier on another post. I am in favour of dismantling the settlements and returning occupied land to whoever it conquesred them from (it should have been Jordan and Egypt, but they for some reason relinquished those lands and left Israel in the midst of a dilemma). Since most of those territories are occupied by Palestinians, then, they are the ones who should get them.
I also believe, Israel as a good neighbour should help the palestinians in setting up a state, help them economically, technologically and educationally as it had done with African nations.. It is in the best interest of both sides.
…Well, lets not jump the gun here. One step at a time. We will get to the occupied land issue, etc eventually. We are still dealing with Crime#1.
I will, however, have to disagree with the rest of Mahmood’s statement, as I think Israel is still the only true democracy in the middleast.
I trust you read my thoughts on the “Israel is a democracy” issue in the “33 days” thread, so I dont want to repeat them, and go off on a tangent. Lets work with the remainder of your post regarding Crime#1 – you agreed to my Balfour argument – I want to see your reaction to the UN one – are we in agreement before we move on?
-Ibn
Ibn,
Sorry for not responding earlier. I am away (again) for a few days and tiks is the first opportunity to get to a quiet moment.
Before I respond to any of your comments, I think it is essential that I make one point very very clear.
By agreeing that the Balfour declaration was not “fair” to the people that were already occupying the land, I am not, and I stress(!) I am not agreeing to it being part of a “Crime,” Ibn.
When something is not fair it does not automatically become a crime.
The Jews did what, as I said befroe, any sane person or ethnic group would have done and that is ask for a safe haven. As the Brits had a mandate over Palestine, it was only logical that they should ask for that from them.
They did not demand it in a violent form. The Brits were anyway dividing the middle east between themselves and the French (Sykes-Picot) and the opportunity arose, so yes, the Jews were clever to take advange of that rising opportunity.
The Arabs, likewise, had demands hence the famous “Hussein letters.” The Brits, and I think many will agree with me, played it unfairly to everyone.
On the issue of the U.N, however, I have to disagree.
Ibn, no one will contest that resolution 181 is the first the UN had made about the middle east. No one will also contest that the Arabs were the first ones not to accept this resolution which could have prevented much bloodshed. Please don’t blame Israel for not abiding to UN resolutions. You have taught us that lesson!
“-”
Thanks for bringing up the issue of TIbet. It dawned on me that I failed to mention it only after I posted my comments.
You are absolutely right about what is going in Tibet. I was there a few years ago and saw first hand what the Chinese are doing there.
Not only do they bring settlers there, they bring there all the dregs of the Chinese society…They have depleted the country of all the antiquities and artifacts.
The name “Tibet” for the country they occupy does not exist in their vocabulary. We, the Israelis, at least acknolewge the Palestinian entity and are trying to negotiate some sort of a solution to the problem. The Tibetans (a wonderful nation!!!) aren’t so lucky, Ibn
Take care
Batzi
Ibn.
I commend your patience. Ande perseverence.
Batzi.
Are you writing to try and infuence other readers? or are you really willing to come into this with an open mind and possibly learn something? I see the same arguments covering the same old ground. its exhausting.
Bottom line. Israel will not achieve peace in the ME based on military supremacy alone. Thats clear. The question is what next? This war is not over. It will continue. More lives lost. More blood shed. Today Lebanon. Tomorrow Iran. And then Syria. And then the brotherhood in Egypt. And then Jordan.
And in the meantine, the extremist Christains in the US are supporting this war fior the sake of Armageddon. And the exremist Moslems are gaining ground day after day. Both Sunni and Shia.
So, where do we go from here?
Batzi,
Listen. You have to keep this simple. Firstly, about Balfour, I asked you, “Does this seem right to you Batzi? (Yes/No)â€Â. You said, no, it does not seem right, or fair. So it was the-wrong-thing-to-do.
Very simple question: Do you agree with the above 3 lines? (Y/N)
Secondly, regarding the UN decision, you are telling me:
No one will also contest that the Arabs were the first ones not to accept this resolution which could have prevented much bloodshed.
Batzi – what is this statement supposed to tell me? I asked you, very simply, and even made an example of it above, on the UN coming in to split up a hypothetical Israel after Britain has occupied it, and giving the Jews the Negev only, and the Arabs the rest. I am asking you, very simply, does this seem right/fair to you? Yes or No?
Instead of answerng me, you come back after 2 days and tell me “but the Arabs rejected the UN and caused massive bloodshed.” Listen Batzi. For the love of your children if you have any. For the love of all that you might consider holy, please, please answer the questions I pose to you. Please! This is the only way to have a discussion with someone.
Otherwise, we will simply be holding hands dancing around an issue while hurling one broad, generalized accusation at each other until the Sun runs out of hydrogen.
So if you are interested in carrying on a meaningful conversation, then please do the following: Go back to the second question, I asked you about the UN, and answer it, with a simple, yes, or no.
Thank you!
-Ibn
ibn
The Chinese occupation of Tibet is on the scale of past and present Israeli occupations? Really?
No, it’s worse.
http://www.savanna.demon.co.uk/Tibet/Tibet.html
Quote: “Summary of Chinese atrocities in Tibetâ€Â
http://www.friendsoftibet.org/main/concerns.html
Quote: “More than a million Tibetans have died as a direct result of the Chinese invasion and occupation of Tibet. Today, it is hard to come across a Tibetan family that has not had at least one member imprisoned or killed by the Chinese regime.â€Â
http://www.tibet.ca/en/wtnarchive/1999/1/26_1.html
“UN To Review Reports of Atrocities Against Tibet Women Under Chinese Occupationâ€Â
Quote: “Women’s Commission for Refugee Women and
Children, finds that China engages in gross violations of the rights of
Tibetan women, including gender-specific torture especially against Tibetan
nuns, and draconian birth control practices including coerced abortionsâ€Â
Since we all know that the Tibetan population isn’t entirely made up of monks, the answer to the orgininal question : “how come the Tibetans don’t go around blowing up Chinese people?†is … what? That followers of Quakerism and Tibetan Buddhism are prohibited from terrorizing civilians but that followers of Islam are not?.
JJ,
Thank you for your comments.
Firstly, there is no need to influence the readers. If anything, there is probably a need to educate some of them about the nature of the conflict and its origins. I am surprised to see how many people around the world still think that Palestine of pre 1948 was a political entity with its own government, parliament and statehood….When my daughter was only 16 years old, her political science teacher in High School in New Zealand taught her that. Needless to add, he has regretted it ever since….It is also amazing to see how many people regard Tel Aviv as the capital of Israel rather than Jerusalem.
What surprises me though is when Ibn repeats arguments, he is patient persevering. When I try to reinforce a certain point for fear that Ibn will misinterpret me, or use my argument to prove a point while selectively quoting only parts of my comments (which he has done time and again and by his own admission), I am asked if I am”willing to come into this with an open mind and possibly learn something? ”
JJ, you might be someone’s favourite pet on this web page, but I am not convinced that ‘Open mindedness’ is your strongest asset either! I don’t need your support, JJ. I don’t need your sympathy either. It would be nice, however,you introduced a more polite and perhaps less patronizing tone into your debates which I admitted before were valuable and at times even funny.
Ibn,
I have already answered your question to the Balfour declaration as “yes, it was unfair. All I added later was that so were the Hussein letters and the Sykes Picot agreements. I have a problem with one ‘superpowere making a unilateral decision. What is not clear about that Ibn? Or rather what is your problem with it?
Now to your second question.
If the UN, which as much as I disrespect and detest yet in lieu of its authority where democratically voted decisions (as opposed to arbitrary ones by one superpower i.e. Britain) are made, agrees on such a decision to split hypothetical Israel, then the answer is: “YES, it is fair”
Have I made myself clear?
Thank you
Batzi
Mahmood,
My name, for some reason, does not appear on the list of names of commentators for this last post.
Cheers
Batzi
Author
JJ:
I vote New Zealand! To hell with all of this crap, I’m fed up as are quite a lot of people, I vote we emigrate en-mass to New Zealand, buy one of their islands live happily for the rest of our natural!
Mahmood,
I am not sure if even that would work. Here in southern Ontario I see cars driving around with Hezballah or Israeli flags flying from their windows. The seeds of discord. We have lots of room over here but you got to leave that shit at the door.
My great grandparents walked away from 7 generations of hard work and wealth when the communists showed up in the Ukraine. They came to Canada in 1922 and got back to work. As a result their childrens and my childrens futures are as bright as any.
Obviously not everyone can just leave but they dont need to. Your focus will become your reality as a person and as a people.
Author
It is hard though, isn’t it? If it was a single problem that could afford a single solution then we would be happy. But the problems we are facing in the Middle East are anything but simple. They are manifold and intertwined. There is no way that these problems could be solved unless a radical solution is presented, and I’m afraid that solution might mean the complete disbanding of our culture and ideals.
It might come to that, and sooner than we think. While the majority of us are still concerned with minute insignificant things in the big scheme of things.
And on top of all that, I really think that with all the brown stuff flying about all over the Middle East, we might have already lost focus!
Mahmood ..
New Zealand sounds just about right. Or Tasmania. Or just about anywhere! As long as its not east of Morocco and west of India …
Personally, I wish the Americans would spend less money on defense and more money on Nasa .. and then we can all go and ‘liberate’ the solar system from occupation of the whatsits .. I would be the first one out!
Batzi ..
You state ” JJ, you might be someone’s favourite pet on this web page, but I am not convinced that ‘Open mindedness’ is your strongest asset either! I don’t need your support, JJ. I don’t need your sympathy either. It would be nice, however,you introduced a more polite and perhaps less patronizing tone into your debates which I admitted before were valuable and at times even funny.”
1. I am not sure who you are reffering to me being their favorite pet? Steve is no longer around .. neither is he who shall not be named. I can’t think who else you may be reffering to? Avi doesnt much like me. And whislt I respect Ethan’s intellect, I wonder about his motives sometimes.
2. How can you judge my open mindedness? You havent even met me. If you are going to judge my open mind based on a discussion of the Arab-Israeli problem, then you are going to find alot of people guilty of ‘closed’ minds.
3. Sympathy? its not you who needs it. its the Lebanese & Palestinian orphans. And the GCC orphans to be who have my sympathy and empathy.
4. As far as being less patronizing! *giggle* that made me laugh. Less patronizing? You, who think its your job to convince everyone that Palestine pre 1948 was a non existant entity and had no Palestinian civil society or infrastructure, think that I am being patronizing because I dare to question your vision of history?
Batzi .. I will tell you how I really feel. I am not patronizing you or anyone on this blog. However, I am frustrated. Scared. And angry. Because the older I get, and the more I see, I am convinced in my heart, that there will never be any stable Middle Eastern country until there is some sort of real honest non patronizing peace between Israel and Palestine that is just and addressed the crux of the problem. until then, stupid Israeli moves will strengthen the hands of stupid arab moslem extremists. And moderates like me, and the majority of people on the blog, are going to find our voices silences and ostracized. Because, in the jungle, might equals right. And the moderates dont have strong enough voices.
So, if I dont say please and thank you and insert ‘thanks for moving forward’ or ‘ thank you for responding’ and all the social niceties into my posts .. its not because I am being rude or patronizing. Its because, quite frankly, there’s no point. The icing on the cake is irrelevant if the cake itself is rotten.
And let me tell you, the smell of rottenness (if such a word exists) is pervasive from Tel Aviv to Tehran to Riyadh.
And, by the way, the capital of Israel is not Jersualem. Its Tel Aviv. 🙂
Jasra,
So, if I dont say please and thank you and insert ‘thanks for moving forward’ or ‘ thank you for responding’ and all the social niceties into my posts .. its not because I am being rude or patronizing. Its because, quite frankly, there’s no point. The icing on the cake is irrelevant if the cake itself is rotten.
Very very well said. This is very true. I myself was getting tired of emotionally laden “counters” from Batzi, which is why I was practically begging her to stay put on topic, and use logic and reason. Most of the time, she has a tendency to overlook the substance of a statement, and respond more towards its emotional tone. This is not the proper way to debate. Emotional tones can add “flavor” to an argument. But they are no substitute for the content of an argument.
Again, well said JJ.
Batzi, I will respond after the weekend.
-Ibn
JJ,
“And, by the way, the capital of Israel is not Jersualem. Its Tel Aviv. ”
I did say you are sometimes funny, did I not? Nice try to spread some more disinformation, JJ.
For your (and everyone else’s information), here is what I found in Wikipedia on “Jerusalem.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem
You and others might immediately jump to point that only a few countries recognize it as the capital of Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem
Before you do that, I enclose a definition of “capital” (again from Wikepedia):
In politics, a capital (also called capital city or political capital  although the latter phrase has an alternative meaning based on an alternative sense of “capital”) is the principal city or town associated with its government. It is almost always the city which physically encompasses the offices and meeting places of the seat of government and fixed by law. The word capital is derived from the Latin caput meaning “head,” and the related term capitol refers to the building where government-business is chiefly conducted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_city
Sorry JJ, according to this definition, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. The seat of the Israeli government is in jerusalem. The KNesset (Israeli parliament )is in Jerusalem. The Israeli president . Mr. Kazav resides in Jerusalem… Do you want me to go on?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positions_on_Jerusalem
I pity you that you do not see some positive in the fact that at least there is some debate/dialogue going on between Jews/Muslims, Israelis and Palestinians. And yes, matters, slowly though, are moving forward. Sad that you do not recognize it. If you expect only “yes” people on this debate, then perhaps it is time that you continue it solely with your fellow Muslims and turn this websit into your very own support group.
“I am not sure who you are reffering to me being their favorite pet? Steve is no longer around .. neither is he who shall not be named. I can’t think who else you may be reffering to? Avi doesnt much like me. And whislt I respect Ethan’s intellect, I wonder about his motives sometimes.”
JJ, exactly my point! It is not your lack of kindness and dignified approach that has kept me responding..
To both you and Ibn,
Sorry if my polite upbringing intereferes with my debate with you guys. I guess you will just have to take it up with my parents. It is only their fault.
Ibn,
“Most of the time, she” {Batzi}”has a tendency to overlook the substance of a statement, and respond more towards its emotional tone. ”
Wait a minute, how did JJ put it?
“*giggle* ”
That is the pot calling the kettle (or vice versa) black!
Do you want me to go through all the posts and pick up your emotional tones, Ibn? You know I am capable of doing that. I am simply afraid that the space here will not suffice. After all the verbal abuse that myself and others have endured from you, I am asking myself how long I am willing to put up with it. Again, blame my parents and the wonderful upbringing they had given me!
Best wishes (oops, I did it again!)
Batzi
Ibn and JJ,
aren`t you sick of repeating the same thing over and over again?
Its a vicious circle….
Its useless to argue with Batzi, finally she came out that the lebanese are lying about their 1500 martyrs all civilians that was really rude!!!
Batzi,
And who broke the cease fire yesterday? after 6 days what was the purpose again?
I am discusted by all the people who think like you, who even have the guts to defend Israel and its atrocities, you are all criminals and taking part of the crime.
Batzi.
You may think you are being polite. I think you run the danger of coming across as completely the opposite. Its like the Israeli army that sends leaflets before they bomb. What is more potent? The words printed on the leadlet? Or the bombs?
If you think that saying please and thank you whilst justifying the bombing the Palestinians, Lebanese, spying on the US, and exterminating everyone and everythign that will stand in the way of Eretz Israel is really going to make people think that you are well brought up .. then let me tell you how it is read in this part of the world. Your words end up being as hollow as UBL’s or Nasser (at the time).
Your words imply that you think that your readers havent read enough, dont know enough, and will be fooled into accepting your point of view because of the pleases’ and thank yous. What you dont realize is that most everyone from this part of the world pays more attention to what is being done and not what is being said. Words are cheap.
And with every please and thank you that you offer, you also condone, sometimes blindly, what your government is doing, has been doing, and continues to do. So, I am not really sure what it is your objective is? I dont think it is to have a dialogue. It seems like you are more interested in the ‘spin’.
A dialogue means going back to square 1. Which Ibn has done very very logically, systematically and comprehensively. You may disagree with him, but thats what the Palestinians think of as square 1. And most arabs as well. So, if you want to fix the problem, then you need to fix it at the rooots. Ignoring what ‘the enemy’ sees as the problem wont ‘further the process’. It just means you are as guilty of being in denial and as guilty of not being a partner for peace as our ‘beloved’ Arafat was.
Wishing you a wonderful day and hope you find it in your heart today to think of the Palestinians, Iraqis, and Lebanese children who are having to grow up without parents to teach them how to be polite …
Batzi,
see this and understand ‘your’ history, the philosophy of zionism and Israel
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-359685624521924184&q=israel
Its a 38 minutes video, the best history video i have seen so far.
Deny if you can
these are crimes #1,#2,#3………#10000 and counting
Batzi
You write (at 8:27 a.m. today) “After all the verbal abuse that myself and others have endured from you, I am asking myself how long I am willing to put up with it.”
I suggest you just leave JJ and Ibn to it. They accuse you of being emotional, yet Ibn is proud of his own emotion – hate.
As for JJ’s “And, by the way, the capital of Israel is not Jersualem. Its Tel Aviv. 🙂 ”
I am not surprised that JJ knows better than the entire rest of the world what the capital of Israel is. She knows etymology better than the Online Etymological Dictionary (see https://mahmood.tv/?p=2629#comment-32244 ). So how could you, as a mere Israeli, be expected to know better than she what the capital of Israel is?
As I say, I strongly recommend that you leave JJ and Ibn to it, and re-direct your energies in more constructive directions.
I note that, after 400 posts, The Religious Policeman decided “Khalas: (Arabic): enough, no more, finished, that’s it, the end” – and went off to write his novel!
Brian
Batzi,
It’s been an interesting few weeks reading these comments from an outsider’s point of view; I have to applaud your efforts for trying to keep the dialogue civil as Mahmood has requested even though there have been some who have crossed the line to one degree or the other. Please take some of the critism with a grain of salt and continue to post whatever you feel appropriate.
Brian,
I was being sarcastic. If the issue of Jersusalem was settled in people’s heads, and I mean REALLY settled, then the Palestinians and the Israelis wouldnt be at war today.
As for the definition of ansti semitsm: i am not sure what u are on about? I have always said that anti semitism did not in the correct definition of the word mean anti jewish, because arabs are also semites. My point was that it has become, throug usage, and usage alone, to mean anti jewish exclusively. I have no disagreement with the following definition, from http://www.etymonline.com, which says:
anti-Semitism
1881, from Ger. Antisemitismus, first used by Wilhelm Marr in 1880, from anti- + Semite (q.v.). Not etymologically restricted to anti-Jewish theories, actions or policies, but almost always used in this sense. Those who object to the inaccuracy of the term might try H. Adler’s Judaeophobia (1882).
The point being “not etymologically restricted”.
Incidentally, the same dictionary does not have a meaning for zionism. And when you put in the word Israel, you get the following defintion:
Israel: O.E., “the Jewish people,” from L. Israel, from Gk., from Heb. yisra’el “he that striveth with God” (Gen. xxxii.28), symbolic proper name conferred on Jacob and extended to his descendants, from sara “he fought, contended” + El “God.” As an independent Jewish state in the country formerly called Palestine, it is attested from 1948. Citizens of it are called Israelis; the ancient people are Israelites (1382).
The point being “the country formerly called Palestine”
I think, my friend Brian, your issue is with the dictionary, not with me …
JJ,
Politeness is more like the plate that the cake sits on. It not only shows respect but also promotes it. Even if you dont respect their arguement.
The point is maintaining a dialogue. It is alot easier to talk to someone who can muster the empathy to be polite.
JJ
You write “As for the definition of ansti semitsm: i am not sure what u are on about?….. I have no disagreement with the following definition, from http://www.etymonline.com,”
Let me point out that http://www.etymonline.com does not give definitions. It gives etymologies – that is, statements of the origin and historical development of words.
What I have NEVER been ‘on about’ is the definition of anti-semitism. All I responded to was your writing (on July 29th, 1:11 pm, https://mahmood.tv/?p=2629#comment-32030 ) “Once upon a time, someone, somewhere, decided to ensure that any criticsim against Jews and Israel was labelled as ‘Anti Semitic’. Many days and months and years later, this person succeeded to the point where it is an established fact that Anti Semitism means Anti Jewish.”
So you made a statement about the etymology of the term ‘anti-semitism’, whereby, according to you, ‘many days and months and years later, this person succeeded to the point where it is an established fact that Anti Semitism means Anti Jewish.’
I pointed out that the term was coined in the 19th century and has ALWAYS meant anti-Jewish. It was coined by a non-Jew, and has never had its meaning changed by ‘someone somewhere’ with his own motives.
Regarding your ‘ And, by the way, the capital of Israel is not Jersualem. Its Tel Aviv. ‘, you write ‘I was being sarcastic’.
Please spare me any saracsm now if you do reply. I now intend to take some of my own advice as I gave Batzi, along the lines of ” “Khalas: (Arabic): enough, no more, finished, that’s it, the endâ€Â
Regards
Brian
Will,
I dont think I have ever been rude. I have disagreed fundamentally with some of the views I have heard on this blog. But, if I have ever said or done anything to indicate that I do not respect the people i am speaking to, then I would very very grateful if you could point out where and when.
A dilaogue means that two people are willing to shift positions and move forward to some sort of resolution. Two monologues do not a dialogue make. All I was pointing out to Batzi was to try and get her to explain why she thought that everyone was moving forward when the same arguements are circling today as did 2 weeks ago? I took issue with whether she really thought that there was movement in the dialogue? On the issues ….
Brain,
We seem to be speaking at cross purposes. If you wish to stop the ‘dialogue’, then I bid you shalom. But, let me explain where my comment about the capital of Israel came from .. my point being that like the right of return, the status of Jerusalem is HIGHLY contentious. And without resolving the issue of Jersualem, there wont be real peace.
Look guys .. Israelis and Arabs alike … the only we we are going to get through this mess that we are in is by dealing with the original problem and dealing with how both sides actually see the beginning. If we disagree, then let us at least acknowledge where the other side is coming from. And let us not be afraid to acknowledge that there might be no point in going forward. And that the rule of might applies.
But, let us not live in denial and think that the other side is filled with ‘hate’ or ‘rudeness’ purely because we dont like what we hear. Which Brian, was my original point to you on anti semitism. The whole reason I brought that up was to tell you that today, any criticism on israel is immediately branded as anti semitic. And not as anti zionist.
What we need is an open discussion on militant islam and zionism .. both ideologies that emerged on the back of historical situations .. both coming head to head … and both being bloody in nature … where zealotness is pervasive amongst both followes, and where land has become more precious than life itself.
That is what is needed.
And if any attempt to deal with the real hard core issues is going to be waylaid because someone is perceived to be rude, or doesnt say please and thank you, or because they are immediately labelled as being anti semitic, then, pray tell, what chance for a REAL conclusive effective resolution oritented dialogue can exist??
Dear Brian, M, Will,
Thanks for your support.
Brian, thanks for your advice. As you suggested, “Khallas” is the word for me!
Goodbye all and again, thanks for a most interesting experience!
Batzi
Author
and just when it was getting interesting, you are leaving? one would think that the conspiracy that Israelies were scouring the Arab blogs to swing public opinion is true!
But apart from that, if this is the end as you and Brian seem to have decided (it hasn’t for the rest of us by the way) then the summary should be:
1. No decision has been made yet regarding the future of Israel and Palestine;
2. No matter what glaring facts stare people in the face, we only believe our version of the truth; and
3. Being polite is more important than the truth.
Last but not least, Batzi, what’s your relationship with Brian, as you seem to be tied at the hip, in timing and ideologies.
Still, I am thrilled to have been your host for 39 days or so. I do hope you will look in once in a while.
Shalom!
So as not to be accused of being impolite, bye Batzi, bye Brian
Couldnt resist, sorry. 😀
JJ
I dont know if you have been rude to anybody, certainly not to me. I was just saying that there is a point and benefit to being polite. If it is genuine it can do nothing but further understanding.
there is some truth.
Mahmood,
1. No decision has been made yet regarding the future of Israel and Palestine;
2. No matter what glaring facts stare people in the face, we only believe our version of the truth; and
3. Being polite is more important than the truth.
Very true. Especially number 3. We are in trouble when we care more niceties than truths. In fact, thats one reason I cannot stand Arab state television, as they are more concerned with “not insulting a royal prince” than giving out the cold hard facts about them! And unfortunately our token Israeli Batzi seems to be cut from the same cloth. Tsk tsk.
Batzi, all I have to say to you is: What a cop out. We get so close, and you bail because the going got tough. What a cop out indeed. I ask you to stay on topic, and your response is to tell me “I cant help me is my parents raised me to be polite” ?….. are…..are you freaking kidding me? I …I dont know whether to laugh, or to cry. Wow. Is anyone else seeing this? haha…ok…ok, nevermind. Ill live with it.
Although one more thing. Your parents taught you to be polite. Did they also teach you that its wrong to take peoples’ territory even if the whole world says its ok? Think about it. If you dont, I certainly hope your children do.
Good riddance.
-Ibn
Mahmood, Ibn, Lujayn …
Don’t worry. They’ll be back. Because, this aint over. It aint over until the fat lady sings, and she aint done singin. Not by a long shot.
The dance between Israel and Iran is continueing, and when they start tangoeing, the discussion will resume.
Methinks we are headed for regional war.
Will ..
Do you think that the Israelis are being ‘polite’ by breaking the ceasefire? Or are they being arrogant?
Will
I am not sure if even that would work. Here in southern Ontario I see cars driving around with Hezballah or Israeli flags flying from their windows
We’ve been seeing that in the US too and I don’t care for it either. If people want to rally with flags of other countries, they should go back to where their loyalties are.
Jasra;
I am convinced in my heart, that there will never be any stable Middle Eastern country until there is some sort of real honest non patronizing peace between Israel and Palestine that is just and addressed the crux of the problem.
I don’t think that’s true. The Israel-Palestininan conflict isn’t the crux of the problem – it’s corrupt and oppressive governments in general. The palestinian conflict is a distraction. If it ever gets solved, those governments will just look for something else to distract their people. There’s no reason why a stable government in any middle-eastern country should be dependent upon a conflict elsewhere.
JJ
I have not been able to find much about that other than 1 blog that said they were interrupting an arms shipment from Syria. Any links? Perhaps they were reacting to a fear of having missles fired at them.
Politeness is not more important than the truth, it is both a requisite and a result of civility. It seems to me that pride and nationalism obscure the truth more than being polite.
Aliandra,
If people want to rally with flags of other countries, they should go back to where their loyalties are.
I guess you just banned yourself from celebrating Saint Patrick’s day in a druken stupor. Afterall, it would require you to wave some semblance of Irish culture, usually the flag, sometimes the four-leaf clover. The horror…the horror….
Anyway, I like seeing statements like this because it underscores how you American-right-wingers like to character-assasinate anybody in a country as diverse as the USA for simply waving a foreign flag. To you, this person is taking a dump on the American constitution. To him, he just misses his mom’s food from his home country. I think the proper diagnosis for this is paranoia on your part, and some of the ARW.
I don’t think that’s true. The Israel-Palestininan conflict isn’t the crux of the problem – it’s corrupt and oppressive governments in general. The palestinian conflict is a distraction.
That is probably the most rampant falsehood probagated by the ARW also. A dictatorship like Egypt, has made (tactical) “peace” with Israel. Whereas a free country like Iraq, refuses to recognise it. How does this remotely fit your model?
Like I have said before, this conflict is territorial. It concerns Zionist usurping of territory. Any human social order will find that wrong. It wouldnt matter if you belonged to a primitive tribe, a religious dictatorship, or a free democracy.
Territorial disputes cut to the core of that is means to be human…mammal even, as any warm blooded 200 pound wolf who can piss in a circle will gladly tell you.
-Ibn
Ibn;
Oh, how deep would the ocean be if there were no sponges.
Aliandra:
You state “If it ever gets solved, those governments will just look for something else to distract their people. ”
Methinks you are giving our governments much too much credit for thinking ahead and strategizing and agreeing amongst themselves as to how they perceive and prioritize regional threats …
Have you ever seen a meeting of the Arab League?
We aint there yet Aliandra. Not by a long shot.
As far as the Palestinian/Israeli issue is concerned. The point here is the role of the superpowers that allow the status quo to remain the way it is. Today the US. Before the English. The point being that as long as ordinary citizens in the ME look at the double standards that are completely evident in US foreign policy, they will become angry at their own governments and even angrier at the West.
So, you are right. It aint just about the land. Its about the abuse of power couched under supposed moral arguments that dont hold water.