It’s a screwed up world

 

Islamic leaders in the Middle East yesterday denounced the slaughter of children in Russia as ‘unIslamic’, as commentators asked unusually soul-searching questions about the region and terrorism.

Even the outlawed Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt’s biggest Islamic group, condemned the bloody siege in Beslan. Its leader, Mohammed Mahdi Akef, said that kidnappings may be justified but killings are not. He added: ‘What happened is not jihad [holy war] because Islam obligates us to respect the souls of human beings; it is not about taking them away.’

While some Islamic fundamentalists in the Middle East have long supported fellow Muslims fighting in Chechnya, such was the barbarity of the hostage takers that few voices spoke in support of the actions in Ossetia. Egypt’s leading Muslim cleric, Grand Sheik Mohammed Sayed Tantawi, was quoted as saying during a Friday sermon: ‘What is the guilt of those children? Why should they be responsible for your conflict with the government? You are taking Islam as a cover and it is a deceptive cover; those who carry out the kidnappings are criminals, not Muslims.’

Ali Abdullah, an Islamic scholar in Bahrain who follows the ultra-conservative Salafi stream of Islam, also condemned the school attack as ‘unIslamic’. However, he insisted Muslims were not involved and revived an old conspiracy theory: ‘I have no doubt that this is the work of the Israelis, who want to tarnish the image of Muslims.’

But the reaction was overwhelmingly filled with revulsion. Abdulrahman al-Rashed wrote an article in the pan-Arab Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper under the headline: ‘The Painful Truth: All World Terrorists are Muslims!’

The Observer
picture credit: Al-Wasat

There is absolutely no justification for kidnapping, killing, torturing, or abusing any human being under any guise, especially religion. Religions do not have anything to do with the barbarity of man or their screwed up interpretations.

But there is a problem and I wonder now if religions are actually the culprit by inciting simple-minded folk to abrogate their God-given logic and just submit to wanton destruction in its name.

We know we have a problem when “learned” scholars who shirk their responsibility to educate and eradicate extremism in all their forms just pass the buck to the “Zionists. This blame on Zionists, Jews, Israelis has become the ultimate joker card in their decks. So rather than questioning and arriving at answers, they seem to be saying “hey bud, this is not our problem” and distance themselves further from truths which are so glaringly obvious it makes the mind boggle.

I know that Zionists, Jews, Israelis just like anyone else on Earth are not without blame, but come on, this is getting ridiculous.

Needless to say, I am disgusted by the events in Beslan, Iraq, Palestine, Israel, and other parts of the world. And no, I don’t have an answer.

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305 Comments
  • anonymous
    5 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    The answer is a viable UN that includes every country on the planet and that has the politcal and military might of the world behind it to resolve these conflicts. Never going to happen in my lifetime, but it should.

  • anonymous
    5 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    The UN? HAH! Those pinheads wouldn’t get it right in a DOZEN lifetimes. In theory it would be nice but realilty is the world we live in and the UN lives in Wonderland with Alice and Rabbit.

  • anonymous
    5 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    This is a tough one. I watched the situation unfold on TV and I felt sick to my stomach.

    I think that in a weird way, most people within the Moslem and Arab world today are so shocked by what happened in Russia that they are shying more and more away from religious leadership as they can see first hand what the results are.

    I think that the relgious leadership should have the guts to stand up during friday sermons and condemn what happened. I think that although governments have done so, these f**kers who think that they should create virtue and vice aquads need to rethink what kind of islam they are propogating and accept the responsability of unchecked religious leadership where they take the law into their own hands and play judge and jury at the same time.

    And some part of me goes back to History and is trying to find out whether Islam is growing through puberty .. like the Cahristians did before us. Can anyone tell me whether Christianity went through this same issue with the Church and how long were people burned at the stake etc during the ‘dark ages’ of Christianity?

    JJ

  • anonymous
    5 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    JJ

    Yes Christianity had its “Dark Ages”. I am at a loss to remember my history as too how long it lasted. It happend in Europe and in the US. I think and hope that this might be some growing pains with Islam.

  • anonymous
    5 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    The UN can’t even solve a genocide in a tinpot Third World country like Sudan. How’s it going to sort out a conflict as intractable as Chechnya?

  • anonymous
    5 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    What are we talking with Christianity, the last 150 years? I don’t think the world is willing to wait that long at the rate the Islamists are going.

    I gotta believe there are more “moderate” muslims in the world than Islamists, and that pressure needs to be brought to bear in every way possible. It is good that people and goernments are speaking out, but more has to be done within the muslim world. Reforms need to be speeded up, Islamist need to be procercuted instead of given amnesty, and most of all “moderate muslims” need to be actlively engaged in the political process in their own countries (where possible like Bahrain maybe) to start turning the tide.

  • anonymous
    5 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    Darn it, I pressed the submit button instead or preview; sorry for the spelling errors.

  • anonymous
    5 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    The VAST vast majority of muslims in the Arab world are moderate and are good people. Slowly they are speaking out. Free speech is a not a given right in the M.E. as we understand it in the west. Sadly in many parts of the world you do not question authority either governement or religious with out a shit storm coming down on you and the ones you love. This is changing but not fast enough for many.

  • anonymous
    5 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    Militant Islam is maybe more analogous to the Reformation in Europe than to the Dark Ages, don’t you think? Wahabism and its various off shoots with their puritanism, their textual literalism and their intention to build ideal societies through studying the word of God have parallels in the puritanical protestantism of Early Modern Europe. The violence and intolerance of the Reformation was the birth pangs of Modernity – individualism, the growing ascendency of the middle classes, more complex technology – and these are all issues that have been thrust upon the Arab world.

    But this analogy comes with a word of warning: its been 500 years since Luther, and until late in the 20th Century the forces he set off still reverberated around Europe – in sectarian wars such as Northern Ireland or the discrimination shown to those on the wrong side of the divide. And it could be argued is still around in the persecution complex of America’s Christian Right today.

  • anonymous
    5 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    A more recent example of religous cruelty and intolerance …

    “We had beaten the Chinese and executed people but they didn’t beat us,” he said. “I often sat wondering why that was.”

    The answer, he said, lay in culture and education, with the Japanese being taught they were a race apart. “We thought the Chinese and people of Southeast Asia were inferior to us,” he said. “We knew they were human, but they were a lower class.”

    Asked how he could countenance killing civilians, Mr. Koyama said: “We were taught from a young age to adore the emperor, and that if we died in battle our souls would go to Yasukuni Jinja. We just didn’t think anything of killing, of massacres or atrocities. It all seemed normal.”

    Relations between China and Japan, Asia’s two biggest powers, have been strained for years, repeatedly poisoned anew by acts on each side. Japan’s school textbooks, for example have glossed over most of the nation’s worst atrocities, while China has used education to keep anti-Japanese passions strong.

    NY Times, Sept. 5 ’04, One Japanese on a Quest of Atonement

  • anonymous
    5 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    Like most people, I know that the majority of Muslims must be as horrified by this slaughter of children as everyone else. But one has to ask – why is it that Islam, more than any other other religion, seems to produce so many people who are so fanatical and death-obsessed that they can coldly and deliberately shoot children through the head?

  • Randy
    5 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    Is there no decency at all with these people? How could they possibly imagine that by taking a school hostage and then killing hundreds of children that they could get the impossible demands they had met? Nasty cowards!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Murdering babies! Personally, I couldn’t care less what someone’s religion is, as long as they don’t try to push it on me. I have heard over and over that Islam is a religion of peace and historically muslims were the most accepting of other beliefs. What happened? Don’t these people have children? How could they do such a thing to children? May they writhe in pain for eternity or burn in hell…whatever the punishment is in their individual religions!

  • anonymous
    6 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    jj…If you want to know more about the Reformation…Google Martin Luther and that will get you started. Interestingly, the US was settled by people tying to escape religious persecution in Europe. Many who came had been tortured..without ears or noses. It has been a long hard road to the knowledge that the separation of church and state is important to protect religious leaders from the possibility of their own corruption.and the corruption of the faith.

    Although there is a beginning of the recognition that there is a problem in Islam…it is only going to get worse. The Russians may take a heavy hand…the Europeans are in denial…only George Bush has tried to extend a hand to save Islam from itself…at least he is trying.

    A good start is to start teaching respect for all religions and to allow people to study other religions respectfully. There has to be tolerance and mutual respect from a young age.

    The idea that all men are created equal is also a good start.

    Also freedom of speech and freedom of thought.

    I don’t know…God help us.

    thinker

  • anonymous
    6 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    Apparently Qaradawi has two daughters studying in London, yet he’s saying its ok to shoot British troops. Surely some contradiction?

    Someone arrest the guy for incitement the next time Ken Livingstone invites him back to talk on wife battery or gay rights.

  • anonymous
    6 September 2004

    Re(1): It’s a screwed up world

    You don’t have to look to far to see Jewish religious fanaticism – take a look at the subsidies been lavished on these bearded settler types in “Judea and Summeria”.

    These guys are a mirror image of their Islamic counterparts sharing the fanaticism, warped idealism and hatred of humanity – so much so that back in 2000 Shas while backing the appropriation of Palestinian land in the West Bank was at the same time campaigning in Israel for Islamists’ votes on a platform of holding back modernity and enthusiaism for growing beards.

  • kategirl
    6 September 2004

    Re(2): It’s a screwed up world

    Steve oh Steve,

    Where were the protests in America when Saddam gassed the Kurds in Halabja while he was still a good friend of Uncle Sam? Where were the protests when the US was getting into a gas pipeline agreement with the women-abusing Taliban? etc.

    Just because Americans didn’t protest on the streets does not mean Americans are not good people. I know that because I have met Americans, I can speak the language spoken by most Americans, I have lived in America, I have studied in America, I have worked in America, I have many close friends from America (one of whom will soon by a Navy pilot), I have lived with an American families, I have participated in American life, I have interacted with American scholars, professionals, and bums on the street about politics, philosophy, art, and less pretentious stuff. This does not make me an expert about America, but I do feel that because of these experiences I can make better comparisons between the Arab world and America than you might be able to (with all due respect). Had I not had these experiences I might have been fooled in to thinking that Americans are bad people, as several individuals here would want me to believe.

    I don’t mean to be rude, but the way speak sometimes really illustrates not only your lack of understanding of the Arab and Muslim world, but more worryingly, that you are often unwilling to accept that others (who might be in a more knowledgable position) might be right and you are wrong.

    Although I can try and convince you here that most Muslims are not bad people, I know with you I would not get anywhere. Because there are experiences that I have had, and information that I have gathered that is impossible to convey through words and sentences. The real point where you and I differ is that you seem to think reading books and articles is sufficient to understand a group of people, whereas I do not.

    The fact that I still use a pseudonym (yes, Chan’ad is not my real name) to say the things that I do should give you an indication of the types of pressures upon us from speaking freely. I agree that our passive behaviour in the face of such evils must be changed… but sadly, life is not as simple as you seem to present it.

    Chan’ad

  • kategirl
    6 September 2004

    Re: Maybe, just maybe there is hope…

    3. Allow women to drive, let alone anything else!

    NO! The law against women drivers is the ONLY law in Saudi that I agree with. Drunk Saudi male drivers cause enough havoc on the streets of Bahrain every weekend. Imagine what it would be like with the addition of female Saudi drivers. God save us! *grin*

  • kategirl
    6 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    Nor does blaming them on some character called “Satan” help. There is no Satan, just us.

    Yeah, that reminds me of some verses by Bulleh Shah, a Punjabi sufi poet:

    You’ve read thousands of books full of knowledge, but have you ever tried reading your Self?
    You visit mosques and temples, but have you ever visited the depths of your Heart?
    You go around fighting against Satan, but have you ever tried fighting against your Soul?

    Chan’ad

    [Modified by: Chan’ad (chanad) on September 07, 2004 01:52 AM]

  • anonymous
    6 September 2004

    Cold facts

    Steve, the “cold fact” is you’ve never even been to the region. As such your forced to regurgitate the stuff someone else has already written. Most of us have heard it all before.

    You’re the blog equivalent of a confused loud American tourist who’s lost in some strange land because he’s spent all day reading the map upside down. I bet like your elderly American tourist you also wear trousers two inches too short as well. Sort it out.

    And if you’re planning a reply keep it short – to say that you’re long winded is an understatement (that’s a word you won’t have heard of before – look it up in a dictionary).

  • anonymous
    6 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    [quote]Asked how he could countenance killing civilians, Mr. Koyama said: “We were taught from a young age to adore the emperor, and that if we died in battle our souls would go to Yasukuni Jinja. We just didn’t think anything of killing, of massacres or atrocities. It all seemed normal.” [/quote]

    Re-write! Asked how he could countenance killing civilians, Mr. Bin Laden said: “We were taught from a young age to adore Allah, and that if we died in battle our souls would go to Heaven. We just didn’t think anything of killing, of massacres or atrocities. It all seemed normal.”

    Creepy isn’t it?

    The problem comes from the instant-grace theology. If you can get into heaven by doing just one act (in this case getting killed by your enemies, or killing Infidels) then it doesn’t matter what you do before then. Martyrdom = instant heaven and paradise. Even if you sin before that, or even in the process of doing it, you’re immediately atoned for, and made into a virgin-loving decadent in Heaven.

    And if we recall – the US kicked Japan’s tail so hard that this ideology was lost. Perhaps the Mullahs need a similar kick in the tail so that they lose their ideology of hate.

  • anonymous
    6 September 2004

    Re(1): It’s a screwed up world

    Ayatollah Stevani .. or Mullah Steve ..

    Any idea where we can export our own Persecuting Pilgrims and do a repeat of the English/ American experience? Whats that you say? America is full of persecuters already – you dont have space for the Moslem Beards because you have enough of the Christian Right? Hmmm. What about Israel? What’s that you say? They have enough beards there in the settlements and are building more and more? Hmmm. What do we do? Send them to Iraq? Oh – yeah – right – they are getting their butts kicked by the US army. Errrm. Ok .. where now? Russia?!

    Houston, we have a problem.

    JJ

  • anonymous
    6 September 2004

    Re(2): It’s a screwed up world

    chill out steve.. the muslim world does condemn these acts! The problem is that muslims are very bad at voicing their opinions. And no marching on the streets is not very common in arab countries. It’s funny but your judgement reminds me of a cowboy by the name of GW bush.. lemme guess, you’re voting for him in november

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    6 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    My guess is that the Christians went through about a thousand years of religious killing. The last witches were charged in England in the 1700s. Of course, I guess I don’t need to remind anyone on this forum of the Crusades. There was also the Inquisition, much of which equalled in horror the current Muslim atrocities. My further speculation is that there was a lot of singleton murders throughout Europe as neighbors denounced each other for giving them the evil eye or killing their cattle with a curse, murders which did not make the history books even as a footnote.

    However, on the other hand, I don’t know of any equivalent period of religious murder for many other religions, such as the Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. So it is not a necessary or unavoidable phase of the evolution of religion.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    6 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    [quote]Like most people, I know that the majority of Muslims must be as horrified by this slaughter of children as everyone else. [/quote]

    How do we know this? There are plenty of mosques throughout the world that have been preaching bloody jihad against the infidel world, the dar al harb. This is the result of that preaching.

    I will believe that the Muslim world is opposed to such appalling carnage when I see them marching in the streets against it and shutting down the charities which support it without being forced by the West.

    Steve

    [Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on September 05, 2004 11:29 PM]

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    6 September 2004

    Re(1): It’s a screwed up world

    To be blunt, if they were good people they would have been condemning Islamic violence long before now. I have yet to see a strong condemnation of Muslim terrorism from any Muslim authority. If they were moderate, the current extremist fundamentalist factions could not flourish. The cold fact is that most Muslims will not speak against any Muslim no matter what evil they do simply because they are Muslim. When you support evil, even through passive behavior, you become part of it.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    6 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    To be perfectly factual, the first English to flee to America to escape religious persecution were not against religious persecution. They just didn’t want to be on the losing side of religious persecution. They wanted to the persecutors, not the persecuted. They moved to America so that they could set up their own religious state.

    They also set up their colony as a commune. Their dum ideas almost killed them that first winter.

    The freedom of speech and thought didn’t come until later, when the Pilgrims no longer called the shots.

    Steve

    [Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on September 05, 2004 11:43 PM]

  • anonymous
    6 September 2004

    Re(1): It’s a screwed up world

    Maybe we don’t “know” it. But I cannot and do not believe that 99% of 1.5 billion human beings out there who are Muslim are anything but as shocked as we are. But yes, Muslims do now need to become much more proactive in ending this psychotic movement within their religion.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    6 September 2004

    Re(2): It’s a screwed up world

    That’s very politically correct thinking, to assume the best in the face of so much evidence to the contrary. However, you’re not alone in hoping for the best and wanting to reach out and understand the Muslims in a spirit of friendship. So did Daniel Pearl and Nick Berg.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    6 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    The UN is part of the problem, not the solution. Its members are a third world kleptocracy which is more interested in preserving local dictatorships of every stripe rather spreading peace. How many resolutions was it going to make against Saddam before it acted? They already had 18, all broken by Saddam. Why would any other dictator take them seriously after Saddam played them for fools?

    Keep dreaming about an effective and responsible UN that spreads peace and love throughout the world. I’ll settle for a Pax Americana.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    6 September 2004

    Re(3): It’s a screwed up world

    I’m pretty politically incorrect in a great many respects, Steve. I’ve got no qualms about saying that any ideology that gives rise to this kind of act has something severely wrong with it. Nevertheless, I do not believe that the majority of human beings, of whatever religious or political creed, can stomach the deliberate murder of children. Humans are animals underneath it all, and we share the same basic animal instincts whatever our beliefs. Those instincts include the instinct to protect children. People who instead murder children are psychotic and abnormal.

  • mahmood
    6 September 2004

    Re(3): It’s a screwed up world

    Come on Steve, both Daniel Pearl and Nick Berg went to a war-torn part of this Muslim world. Had they wanted to understand Islam and Muslims better, wouldn’t you think they would go to a more peaceful place in this vast Muslim world?

  • mahmood
    6 September 2004

    Re(4): It’s a screwed up world

    Absolutely concur. Even animals protect their young, even if not their own. These so called people who perpetrated this crime are nothing but criminals no matter what cloak they hide under.

  • mahmood
    6 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    Is it Islam to blame or people who mis-represent it? These criminals are just that, criminals. There is no need to categorise them with religion.

    Look at the two French hostages in Iraq now and the demands that the dimwit abductors have to release them: “rescind the hijab decision” in France! And do you think France will do that?

    These criminals demand the impossible because they want to kill. Nothing less.

  • anonymous
    6 September 2004

    Re(2): It’s a screwed up world

    As usual Steve you spout off on topics and points that you know very little about. You have never lived in the region, let alone visited the region yet you pretend you know all about it. Do you feel your “interaction” with a few people from the region has given you an “insight” that makes you special and extra knowledgeable on the subject?

    Steve if you speak out openly in the region you might just disappear from the face of the earth. Dissent is frowned upon and the consequences don’t just fall on the one making waves. Your family members could and often feel the wrath as well. I don’t think you grasp this fact.

    Free speech is only now growing and taking hold. A few years ago this website would not have been permitted. People are finding their voice. Things are changing. Not fast enough but it is happening. Again you seem to paint all with a broad brush and condemn all Muslims for the actions of a few with rancid comments like “if they were good people they would have been condemning Islamic violence long before now.” You come across as an arrogant jackass with comments like that and you ruin many of the good points you make.

  • mahmood
    6 September 2004

    Maybe, just maybe there is hope…

    Yesterday King Fahad and Crown Prince Abdulla met with teachers in Saudi and they both instructed them to be moderate and shun all extremist teachings, etc. etc.

    Is this a start of the Saudi authorities ripping up those archaic books and replacing them with more tolerant versions?

    I’ll believe that when:

    1. The Ministry of Prevention of Vice and Promotion of Virtue is disbanded
    2. They allow christians and jews to worship in public, thus accepting multiplicity in religion
    3. Allow women to drive, let alone anything else!

  • mahmood
    6 September 2004

    Re(1): It’s a screwed up world

    Like you I am learning through this blog as well. But do remember please that I am not superman, nor am I a cleric, cook, scientist, business leader, cultural expert, etc. I’m just a schmuck who by chance got born in this country and culture.

    So if you are looking for answers, please widen your search and speak to others who are experts at what you seek. You will be sorely mistaken to take my words as gospel. I try my best, but there are many other visitors to this site who are much more knowledgeable and eloquant than I could ever be.

  • esraa
    6 September 2004

    Re(1): It’s a screwed up world

    I agree completely. Again it’s back to the moral bankruptcy of our religious leadership. They would sacrifice ANYTHING to control us (the ummah) as their 7th century styled minions.

    Anybody who possesses a free thought is a threat to that. Real ijtihad is a threat to them. If they lost control over us then who would do their bidding in the war against everything non-Muslim?

    As for the Saudi royals — how naive could they be. I have been watching this one unfold for at least the last 15 years and you’d have to be brain-dead not to see the threat building. The problem is that they themselves have been such corrupt “rulers” that one would hardly care about giving them a “heads up” to the threat that was building. They wouldn’t have listened anyway. Too busy building and wallowing in their excessive, materialistic lifetsyle.

    The real tragedy is all the Saudi people trapped between a rock (the royals) and a hard place (the muftis), with the muttawain keeping everybody in line 🙁

    Salaam Alaikum,
    PM

  • esraa
    6 September 2004

    Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    in the ME, that is, and I must remind you that we DO NOT have the RIGHT to march in the streets. In fact, I live in a very progressive and Western-friendly country, but we still cannot participate in public demonstrations. This is true for religious extremists as well, btw.

    I get a little tired of Westerners (of which I am one, btw) ignoring the public statements of Muslims on the internet, in the media, and in conversations in which we adamantly condemn the actions of these evil terrorists. It seems that if we don’t march in the streets (a la the American and Euro form of protest), then you think we are not doing enough.

    That is simply biased and shows little understanding of our reality, my friend.

    Salaam Alaikum,
    PM

  • esraa
    6 September 2004

    Re: how to become a cleric in 13 easy steps

    You forgot 2 steps:

    – hem your thobe up to mid-calf

    – grow a beard — the longer and wilder, the better

    Other than that, you are tight on track, brother 😛

    Salaam Alikum,
    PM

  • mahmood
    6 September 2004

    partial translation of Al-Sharq Al-Awsat’s article

    You might be interested to read Al-Sharq Al-Awsat’s partially translated article by Reflections from Canada. Well done global soul.

    here’s the link for the original article in Arabic.

    damn link breaks:
    original article: http://www.asharqalawsat.com/default.asp?issue=9412&page=leader&article=253552&state=true
    global soul’s translation: http://bahrein.blogspot.com/2004/09/painful-truth-all-world-terrorists-are.html

    [Modified by: Mahmood Al-Yousif (mahmood) on September 06, 2004 11:44 AM]

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    6 September 2004

    Re(1): It’s a screwed up world

    Mahmood,

    I would weigh them more heavily on the “dimwit” side than the “killer” side. The people who are kidnapping people are unsophisticated rubes who have little idea of how the world works. In their neighborhoods, taking captives and threatening them works. Naturally, they take this locally successfully strategy and apply it to the larger world until they fail.

    It reminds me of one of Al Capone’s hired killers from old Chicago who said he was going to become President of the United States by killing everyone who got in his way. It’s a simple plan, one that appeals to a killer. It didn’t work. He was rubbed out when the other killers recognized him as too dangerous to work with.

    It looks like there are a lot of hands on the wheel, influencing these crimes. It looks like some midlevel thugs grabbed the French captives and made their absurd demands and then sold them to another group of higher-level thugs with a different agenda, one where they play France off America.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    6 September 2004

    Re: Maybe, just maybe there is hope…

    How many times have the evil lying Saudis told this lie? They do a publicity exercise where they declare their noble intentions to moderate the despicable Wahhabi intolerance in their schools, then simply rewrite the texts with the intolerance intact. Then it takes months or years for the new hateful passages to be uncovered. It is a feather duster approach, where the dirt is brushed away for now only to settle back later when attention has drifted elsewhere.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    6 September 2004

    Re(1): It’s a screwed up world

    [quote]You’ve read thousands of books full of knowledge, but have you ever tried reading your Self?
    You visit mosques and temples, but have you ever visited the depths of your Heart?
    You go around fighting against Satan, but have you ever tried fighting against your Soul?
    [size=18][/size][/quote]

    That’s beautiful.

  • esraa
    6 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    Well, I for one am glad to see that someone else has Qaradawi’s number. If I hear another Muslim tell me how moderate and pro-West he is, I’ll scream 😛 Folks like him lull us into complacency…

    Thanks for the link, Mahmoud.

    Salaam Alaikum,
    PM

  • anonymous
    6 September 2004

    God bless the Sufis

    Nice one Chan-ad. Thanks for that ..

    JJ

  • anonymous
    6 September 2004

    Re(1): how to become a cleric in 13 easy steps

    and the lobotomy?

    JJ

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    6 September 2004

    Re(4): It’s a screwed up world

    Daniel Pearl thought he was meeting a cleric who preached radical Islam who was associated with the Islamic shoe-bomber who tried to butcher a jet full of passengers over the Atlantic. He was trying to understand what this Muslim cleric thought and report it in the Wall Street Journal.

    Nick Berg carried a Koran and some Islamic literature with him when he was abducted, obviously in an attempt to understand the Muslim people of Iraq.

    Mahmood, where in the Muslim world is there peace? Here in America Muslims kill Americans by the thousands. We find the imams of mosques buying weapons for bad purposes. In Europe, plots by Muslims to mass murder people are regularly uncovered. In North Africa, they are bombing synagogues. In East Africa, they bomb embassies. In Russia, Muslims attack an elementary school on opening day. In Thailand, the Wahhabis fund madrassas, preach their hatred, and then import sinister figures with false papers and guns to launch attacks on infidel Thais. In Indonesia, they kill Australians drinking and dancing in Bali and laugh about it in court.

    Where in the world have Muslims gone and made things more peaceful?

    Here in America, it looks like the Muslims take advantage of our religious tolerance to build mosques, establish schools, and fund charities that are merely covers for terrorist operations and the promotion of evil Wahhabism which seeks the destruction of America. There are hospitals built by Catholics, Protestants, and Jews all over America. Where are the hospitals built by Muslims? There are universities here built by Catholics, Protestants, and Jews. Where is the university built by the Muslims here? Why is the focus of Muslim immigrants to America on killing rather than learning and healing? Why are Muslims seeking always to destroy rather than to build when they come to America?

    Mahmood, you’re a nice guy and I am unloading more than your fair share of my frustration with Muslims. Yet, these issues need to be placed on the table for all to see.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    6 September 2004

    Re(3): It’s a screwed up world

    Your rebuttal rebuts itself. If speaking out in favor of moderation is severely unpopular, then moderation is hardly a majority view then, is it?

    And I am not a jackass, but a Socratic gadfly, stinging you into action.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    6 September 2004

    Re: Cold facts

    Then rebut my positions with facts, rather than the fallacious appeal to authority that only people who live it can understand it. I can’t learn anything if I agree with everyone.

    Was that short enough?

    Steve

  • salima44
    6 September 2004

    Re(4): It’s a screwed up world

    If Mahmood allowed a poll with the simple question :IS STEVE A JACKASS YES or NO. I would venture to bet 75% of those polled would say you are a jackass. Anyone other than Steve care to differ?

  • anonymous
    6 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    “But one has to ask – why is it that Islam, more than any other other religion, seems to produce so many people who are so fanatical and death-obsessed that they can coldly and deliberately shoot children through the head?”

    It is mainly Islam today, but it was Nazism in the 1940s, Genghis Khan’s forces before that, and so on. To anyone who knows about the Holocaust, the events of last week are sickening and disappointing, but not surprising. We know what people can do to each other.

    There are also individuals in all countries who torture children to death.

    Answers? I think the first step is to realise that God will not help. We are on our own. It is entirely up to human beings on this planet to sort out these problems.

    Nor does blaming them on some character called “Satan” help. There is no Satan, just us.

  • anonymous
    6 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    This just keeps getting worse.

    http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=14605550&method=full&siteid=106694&headline=they-knifed-babies-they-raped-girls—name_page.html

    THEY KNIFED BABIES, THEY RAPED GIRLS Sep 5 2004

    SCHOOL SLAUGHTER: 323 DEAD, 434 HURT

    Supposedly the Russians have the videotape the Chechans took raping the girls.

    To top this outrage off we find another one of those “clerics” who supports these kinds of operations and the deliberate targeting children.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wosse705.xml

    Why in Gods name do people even listen to idiots like this? How can he have the title “Cleric”? How does he have followers?

  • salima44
    6 September 2004

    Re(5): It’s a screwed up world

    [quote]Why is the focus of Muslim immigrants to America on killing rather than learning and healing? Why are Muslims seeking always to destroy rather than to build when they come to America? [/quote]

    Give it up Steve. Again with the absolutes that all Muslims are bad and evil. I am tired of your petty insults towards my muslim friends in this country and around the world. The focus of 99.999999% of Muslims in America and around the world is to live and be happy and this does not mean being happy involves killing westerners or Jews. Your hatred borders on the need for professional help. Please get some. Since you refuse to listen to sound logic and reasoning from people who know a hell of lot more than you do on the subject.

  • mahmood
    6 September 2004

    how to become a cleric in 13 easy steps

    You’re right, it’s sick to say the least.

    What does it take to become a cleric? This is easy, in most cases:

    1. drop out of school and become a total loser
    2. take up drugs and drink yourself silly
    3. a light-bulb goes off in your head with the thought that I need some respect of my community and get some money
    4. go to Hajj (pilgrimage)
    5. declare that you have “discovered” God and you are atoned
    6. start going to the mosque
    7. get a spaced out look
    8. start deciphering the Quran
    9. perfect the zeolot look
    10. suddenly you are accepted as “on the correct path again and how God is wonderful that He guided you at last”
    11. rant a bit about the establishment and start pointing at people (mainly your enemies) and shout “Kaffir” (unbeliever) and some other choice words
    12. wear a turban (wind it TIGHT)
    13. you now suddenly have followers, crawling out of the woodwork following you, because you have “reformed” and “discovered” the wonders of God and religion

    That’s it, in 13 easy to follow and execute steps.

    Why do people follow these kind of people? Ever watch sheep graze?

    [Modified by: Mahmood Al-Yousif (mahmood) on September 06, 2004 02:05 PM]

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    6 September 2004

    Re(3): It’s a screwed up world

    [quote]Where were the protests in America when Saddam gassed the Kurds in Halabja while he was still a good friend of Uncle Sam? Where were the protests when the US was getting into a gas pipeline agreement with the women-abusing Taliban? etc. [/quote]

    We were never pals with Saddam. We were playing Saddam and Khomeini, evil guys both, off each other so that they would exhaust themselves on each other rather than us.

    There was quite a bit of negative reaction everywhere in the US when Saddam’s WMD attack on Halabja. As more facts became known, it was published widely and condemned by everyone.

    It’s kind of a far stretch to link a gas pipeline in Afghanistan to women’s rights, don’t you think? Had we demanded that Afghans change their ways to suit American taste, you’d probably be one of the first to condemn us, wouldn’t you? That would be another example of American arrogance, no doubt. So you have built quite a neat, though fallacious, rhetorical box here: America is wrong because they trade with a country that abuses its women or America is wrong because it imposes its values upon us.

    To answer this feeble argument against America: Trade is the best way to harmonize relations between nations and cultures. Any business, such as building a pipeline, establishes a channel for ideas to be exchanged between Afghanistan and America. Through such an exchange, carried by commerce, the hard work of reconciling the differences between the two cultures is done. So while doing business with an unsavory nation appears wrong to the simple-minded, it is the best way to influence them for the best outcome. Certainly better than bombs and bullets.

    May I point out that much of conflict between the Muslim world and the West is caused by Muslims refusing to communicate with the West for the last thousand years. All those fatwas condemning contact with infidels placed you in this catastrophic situation today. Your argument against doing pipeline business in Afghanistan would extend that ancient and wrong-headed policy.

    I am willing to concede that you could have a better grasp of the differences between the Muslim world and America based on your wider experience. But I expect you to back up your view with facts and examples. I won’t get those unless I challenge you to produce them.

    I don’t think that the bulk of Muslims are bad people. I see them much like the Germans of the 1930s. Most probably just want to live their lives peacefully and make a couple bucks. Every time the radicals do something, they shrug it off and press on in their daily routine. As the radicals make changes for the worst, they bitch a little but adjust as long as it isn’t that bad. By degrees, their freedom is siphoned away, but their everday life is acceptable, maybe even improved. They feel compelled to defend their state of affairs, the government which is their source of income, their beliefs which have been steadily indoctrinated by the state. They go along to get along.

    Then one day they wake up in the smoking rubble and discover they have been supporting a regime that has led them into catastrophe, that has stripped their self respect by carrying out evil in their behalf, that has reduced them to poverty. They try to salvage their self respect by claiming to be Good Germans who did not know the evil being done. Yet they knew the little evil acts done in their neighborhoods and did nothing.

    I don’t buy the Good German argument and I don’t buy the analogous Good Muslim argument that Muslims are just objects that are manipulated by evil others and can take no action of their own. Are the fundamentalist crazies the only ones with the courage of their convictions? Do you think anyone will make a gift of your freedom and drop it in your lap? If you are ever going to enjoy your freedom you need to make a stand for it. That means you need to challenge authority. You’re a smart guy. You can find a hundred ways to do that.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    6 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world-

    Today: Saudia Arabia King (or whom ever) released a statement stating that religious leaders, cleric (puppets) etc. should tone down their radical teachings! Wanna know why?
    To protect the Saudi Royality!
    I’ve lost absolute confidence about any resolution between Saudi extreemists and the rest of the world. After all they will allow their own young female students to burn to death rather than be seen in public with out the “proper” dress!
    My condolences for the victims and families of these stupid, cowardly, in-bred, scumbag murderers!

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    6 September 2004

    Re(6): It’s a screwed up world

    I am asking the hard and uncomfortable questions on Americans minds. You’re evading the answers.

    It is indisputable that a large proportion of Muslims are taught to make war on infidels, that it is OK to hurt non-Muslims, etc ad infinitum. That is taken from the textbooks of an Islamic school right in Washington, DC as reported in the Washington Post. It’s a standard feature of Wahhabi textbooks spread around the world.

    It is not a millionth of a percent of Muslims who are spreading this vile doctrine, as you absurdly claim. One one hundred millionth of the Muslim population of 1.5 billion is 15 people. There were more than that skyjacking jets on Sep 11 and twice that attacking the school in Beslan.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    6 September 2004

    Re(3): It’s a screwed up world

    The Muslim world doesn’t seem to have a problem condemning America. You can read about it all the time and see it on TV. Certainly you have seen that, haven’t you?

    Steve

    PS. You guessed right.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    6 September 2004

    Re(5): It’s a screwed up world

    If the majority voted to burn you at the stake, would that make it right?

    Instead of fallacious ad populem and ad hominem arguments, why don’t you present facts and reasons to make your point?

    Steve

  • Randy
    6 September 2004

    Re(1): It’s a screwed up world

    I appologize if I wasn’t clear here…I wasn’t blaming the religion, I truly don’t care what way someone acknowledges their dieties. What I do not understand is how anyone can justify acts like these in either a religious or political sense. But mankind has done just that for centuries and used god/allah/whoever as a reason! Does noone understand all the books they worship were written by men! Men are fallible and I have yet to see any diety’s signature on an authors page! Sorry if this sounds incoherant but this situation has really just made me sick, as I am sure it has to all reasonable people.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    6 September 2004

    Re: Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    An interesting and fair point.

    So what are you doing to advance your moderate position in the Muslim world?

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    6 September 2004

    Re(2): It’s a screwed up world

    Jasra,

    You are in playful mood today, now aren’t you?

    I strongly recommend that you export your Bearded Ones to Antartica. Let them establish their Islamic theocracy there amongst the penguins and icebergs. The penguins will not mind losing their freedom of speech. They don’t have anything to say anyway. The seabirds could be trouble though, always squawking about something. And there is many a walrus who would make a fine mullah.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    6 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    Like Mahmood there are decent Muslims and they are the ones I feel sorry for.

    Imagine a Christian group sneaking into Saudi Arabia to take 1,000 school children hostage then shooting several hundred of them in the back as they attempted to run to the protective arms of their mommy.

    I know who the real culprits are though. I know them.

    They are the evil Imans who wish to take the middle east back to the seventh century. They fill childrens heads with hate for western ways by presenting the worst western culture has to offer and non of the the best.

    The Saudi’s in particular are guilty of this. I’ve seen some textbooks Saudi’s use in their primary schools. Pure hatred is taught there for everything western. Western men are drunks of low morals while our women are whores. It is just amazing what they are taught.

    Why? The Saudi royal family gave this concession to the religious fanatics without understanding they were allowing a nest of viperous snakes to breed in their own back yard.

  • anonymous
    6 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    Mahmood,

    You said you didn’t have answers but everyone who reads your blog is looking at you for answers.

    This is beyond our comprehension.

  • mahmood
    6 September 2004

    alt.muslim’s perspective

    you might be interested in alt.muslim’s perspective on this issue

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    7 September 2004

    Re(8): It’s a screwed up world

    I don’t hate all Muslims nor a majority of them or even a significant minority. I have yet to meet an American Muslim I dislike. Most of the foreign Muslims I met were likeable enough, except for Farzan, a jerk from Iran. And the handful of arrogant Saudi air force officers I met.

    I don’t see many people answering my questions here. I see people objecting to my issues, as you do, but few who actually rebut my arguments with new information or reasons or authentic alternate interpretations. Most of those are Americans. Who cares what they think? I can find that out walking down the street.

    You are mistaken to think that because I ask you hard or abrasive questions that I dislike you. I don’t. I think all the registered people and most of the anonymous posters are decent people. Even bonsaimark is probably a good guy, who just has a low threshhold for tolerating dissenting ideas.

    I want to know how you think. I can’t find that out by exchanging bumper sticker pleasantries with you, but rather by challenging you. I can get bumper sticker views from the National Geographic.

    From writing in this forum, I have found that the Arab correspondents are smarter than I expected. My expectations were set low by reading the Arab press. I realize from reading your posts that the Arab press is pitched to an uneducated audience. You are rational well educated people. That’s very reassuring.

    You are more mature and cosmopolitan than I expected. The cosmopolitan part I can understand, you having straddled different, very different cultures. The maturity, I speculate, comes from dealing with more difficult everyday situations than the average American, who can act like an adolescent well into his thirties without much risk.

    You’re more polite as a group than I expected. Part of that I attribute to Arab culture, which is more polite than American. I expected more rude radicals here. Kinda disappointed about that.

    I think that you are in a tough position, feeling obliged to defend your people and religion when you know there are problems there that can’t be easily fixed that are not of your making. Anyone would make a defense of themselves and their home when challenged by a rude foreigner like me. Can’t fault you there.

    Actually, I’ve learned quite a bit indirectly here.

    Steve

    PS. That’s the good news. The bad news is that I intend to learn more. Sorry.

  • anonymous
    7 September 2004

    Re: Cold facts

    You miss Steve’s point which is that talk is cheap. Don’t have to live in the area to understand the time for change is now, and if you don’t take a stand, it will pass you by. That does not mean a revolution, but rather nonviolent steps to change the way things are done. Most important is being involved in the politcal process.

    Do understand from reading this blog and others in the ME what you are talking about if anyone dissents from the norm. That’s fine, but you then have to be willing to wait for another generation or more for any hopes of real change; and only then hope the beards don’t win during that time or that the government “allows” you more basic rights.

    I view it as no different than the civil rights movement in America. People were hung, threatened, shunned, murderd and churches were bombed, but there were those who dared to speak out for what was right even if it meant danger to them. By doing so, their numbers and support grew from both blacks and whites, and it was a no brainer for the government and the people.

    I am not sure I would have the guts to do anything if I lived in the ME; heck, I can’t even confront my kid’s baseball coach, but I don’t see you governments “offering” much in the way of REAL reforms. You can blame America for alot of things, but not this one, because the responsibility lies with the people if they miss their chance.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    7 September 2004

    Re(1): It’s a screwed up world

    Here are more chilling developments:

    The terrorists took 22 male captives from the gym to break up desks to make barricades. When they were done, they executed them. Shot dead.

    Some of the terrorists did not know that children would be taken captive. When they balked, their terrorist buddies killed them. It’s not clear who these were and how many. There are reports that two of the women terrorists disappeared after the first day.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    7 September 2004

    Re(2): It’s a screwed up world

    I can’t believe a substantial number of Muslims condone what a few have done but it has to be fear that keeps the majority in line.

    Fear that if you speak out you’ll be branded an agent of “Zionism” putting your life and the lives of your family in jeopardy.

    So the good stay silent while the rest of the world misinterprets this silence.

    One of the worlds great religions hijacked by monsters.

  • anonymous
    7 September 2004

    Al-Muntada Profile

    The dilemmas of Bahrain’s liberals reported in today’s Daily Star:

    http://dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=5&article_id=8120

  • mahmood
    7 September 2004

    Re(2): how to become a cleric in 13 easy steps

    Damn, how did I miss those three points? Well to be bipartisan, points 14 and 15 apply to the Salafis more than the Shias and you know me, I try to be fair, so we’ll label points 14 and 15 as 13b and 13c. Point 16 is definitely needed and it is hereby labelled point 14 in this how-to guide!

    🙂

  • anonymous
    7 September 2004

    Re(1): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    “in the ME, that is, and I must remind you that we DO NOT have the RIGHT to march in the streets.”

    I saw plenty of protests in the Arab streets before the US went into Iraq, from Bahrain to Egypt, all condemning the US, calling Americans war mongers etc .. (I see none protesting the massacre in Sudan).

    Please explain …

    -Aliandra

  • anonymous
    7 September 2004

    Re(8): It’s a screwed up world

    Steve is not here to learn; he already made up his mind about Islam and Muslims, in the best tradition and with the absolute certainties of modern and medieval orientalists and crusaders. Demonizing all Mulsims goes with the territory.

    He lives in what Paul Krugman decribes in the NYT today as a
    “‘mythic reality’ in which our nation [the US] is purely good, our enemies are purely evil, and anyone who isn’t our ally is our enemy.”

  • mahmood
    7 September 2004

    Re: Al-Muntada Profile

    I wend to one of their seminars and was impressed by what I have seen. The seminar was done as information speeches by respected Kuwaiti liberals. They failed however to “pull me in” as in the Q&A session that followed they failed to touch on the major subject of their agenda. If Al-Muntada wants to just disseminate liberal and moderate thought through seminars that’s fine and I appreciate that, but they need to categorically say that they intend to get into the real political fray. If they do that, I’ll happily sign up!

  • anonymous
    7 September 2004

    Re(2): It’s a screwed up world

    Steve,

    I’m afraid its the monotheistic religions that have been the most intolerant of other beliefs. You have the Jews during the primtive age of the Judges, the Christians with their religious wars and their Inquisitions, and Islam now with terrorism and the massacres of non-Muslims in Indonesia, East Timor, and Sudan.

    This may be due to the nature of these religions which insist that they have the correct God and everyone else is wrong. Polytheists generally don’t care which Almighty you worship.

    I don’t know of any wars or massive atrocities commited in the name of Buddhism or Hindusim. Maybe there are, but I just don’t recall anything.

    -Aliandra

  • anonymous
    7 September 2004

    Re(3): It’s a screwed up world

    Aliandra .

    Good point. Except, massacres and terrorism are not unique to Islam. In fact, the first terrorist was Samson in the temple …

    And, Hindus have had their fair share of atrocities commited in the name of religion. The caste system on its own is pretty atrocious,is it not?

    Jasra Jedi

  • anonymous
    7 September 2004

    Re(2): It’s a screwed up world

    Steve “The Americanâ€?, speaking like a good crusader writes -as usual – with absolute certainty:

    “The cold fact is that most Muslims will not speak against any Muslim no matter what evil they do simply because they are Muslim. When you support evil, even through passive behavior, you become part of it.�

    Let’s try this for size, assuming he is able to deal with complexities…

    “the cold fact is that most Americans will not speak against US foreign policy in the mideast no matter what evil it represents, particularly with regards to its political, financial and military support of Israel’s brutal 27 year old occupation and aparthied practices. When you support eveil, even through passive behavior, you becomes part of it.�

  • anonymous
    7 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    “What are we talking with Christianity, the last 150 years? I don’t think the world is willing to wait that long at the rate the Islamists are going.

    I gotta believe there are more “moderate” muslims in the world than Islamists, and that pressure needs to be brought to bear in every way possible. It is good that people and goernments are speaking out, but more has to be done within the muslim world. Reforms need to be speeded up, Islamist need to be procercuted instead of given amnesty, and most of all “moderate muslims” need to be actlively engaged in the political process in their own countries (where possible like Bahrain maybe) to start turning the tide.”

    Indeed. And the “West”, especially the US, needs to rethink its own policies in the region, especially its support to dictatorial regimes and the aparthied state of Israel, which contribute to the rise of extremism. George W. Bush is the best thing that ever happened to Bin Laden. (And W. needs Bin Landen to win reelection.)

  • holako
    7 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    Ali Abdullah: “I have no doubt that this is the work of the Israelis, who want to tarnish the image of Muslims”

    Irresponsible blatherings of religious ‘leaders’ tarnishes the image of Muslims worldwide. Israeli’s don’t use suicide as a tactic to indiscriminately kill innocent men, women and children. Israelis don’t hide behind masks and videotape murder of civilians. Israelis may do many horrendous things, but they don’t claim to be doing them in the name of God. Only fanatic Muslim extremists currently hold that dubious distinction. Their glorification in the Arab press completes the image.

  • anonymous
    7 September 2004

    Re(1): It’s a screwed up world

    Ever heard of Barak Goldstein?

  • anonymous
    7 September 2004

    Re(1): It’s a screwed up world

    Too right re: Israel. If Washington want’s to improve its image in the Arab world and at the same time support pro-Western voices then it needs to re-examine its relationship with Israel. There’s no point in Washington funding all Al Hurra and Sawa, while everyone can see that Washington’s giving Israel a blank cheque – its just throwing good money after bad.

  • anonymous
    7 September 2004

    Re(1): Cold facts

    I’m well aware that talk is cheap pal – I’m reminded of it every time I start reading Steve’s lengthy posts. What the guy’s doing is knocking off second hand second rateness and trying to flog it as something profound offering deep insight. Instead he’s got all the weight and intellectual depth of an unflushed turd bobbing unwelcomingly in a public toilet.

  • anonymous
    7 September 2004

    Like hitting a cow’s arse with a banjo

    What’s that Steve? “We were never pals with Saddam”? You’re just begging to see that photo of your Defense Sec being giving the hospitality of Baghdad by Saddam. Obviously there wasn’t the same “negative reaction” by Rumsfeld to Saddam’s use of WMD against Iranians in 1993.

    Request granted – here’s the link: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

  • anonymous
    7 September 2004

    Joker’s Wild

    It’s sad, but not at all surprising, that a discussion about the atrocity in Beslan managed to get sidetracked for a while into a discussion of Israel. Mahmood’s joker gets played again.

    My opinion is that if moderate Muslims don’t rise up, coordinate, and actively work to put an end to Islamist/Wahaabi extremism, the US, and increasingly others, will do it instead. And obviously, many won’t like how it gets done.

    The reasons mentioned why this can’t happen internally, like the relative lack of political and religious freedom in the ME and Arab world, may be valid, but that excuse isn’t going to alter the choice that’s before the world.

    I very much appreciate liberal Arabs like Mahmood speaking up on forums like this one. But I wonder if it’s too little, too late. There’s not a lot of time left.

    Brian O’Connell
    http://blog.spartac.us/

  • anonymous
    7 September 2004

    Re(2): Cold facts

    Pal? You must be one of those arrogant Americans I keep hearing about.

  • esraa
    7 September 2004

    Re(7): It’s a screwed up world

    Steve:

    You write: “It is indisputable that a large proportion of Muslims are taught to make war on infidels, that it is OK to hurt non-Muslims, etc ad infinitum.”

    This is simply unprovable and not even supported by anecdotal evidence. I live and travel widely in the ME & SE Asia. I have never met a Muslim who professes or even agrees with the ideas you subscribe to us. But I do see some real loudmouths on the internet and promoted in the press. They are minute in proportion but gargantuan in their hatred. Perhaps that is what is confusing you.

    If you were to say that even 1% of all Muslims feel that way, we would be talking about 1,500,000 people — which would be an extraordinarily high number in my opinion — and 1% is hardly the majority.

    So what is indisputable is that you are grossly exaggerating. Admit it and we can move on to addressing how to get even the smallest percentage of Muslims on track and living in peace with the non-Muslim world.

    Salaam,
    PM

  • salima44
    7 September 2004

    Re(7): It’s a screwed up world

    Steve,
    I don’t think anyone is evading your questions. Rather most are tired of answering your questions, giving you facts and their point of view from places you have never been and having you IGNORE the basic facts and spew on with your hate filled diatribes. By doing so you insult all who have tried to answer your questions. Fact is Steve you do not seem to be interested in the answers UNLESS they fit into YOUR sense of idealism. The hard and uncomfortable question is one you need to ask yourself and that is why do you hate/dislike muslims? You will claim you don’t but the constant picture you paint of all muslims being out to kill and harm tells a different tale or at least shows you border on the obsesive side.

  • anonymous
    7 September 2004

    Re(6): It’s a screwed up world

    Ooooh ..

    Steve – do I hear you implicitly saying that the rule of the majority might not always be right? And therefore, an effective democracy is not really about one man one vote because the rule of the majority might be flawed? And that in order for good leadership and judgement to take place, one needs more than a voting system? Therefore, democracy is not the end all and be all? That freedom must prosper, but not for its own sake alone?

    Treason, my dear friend, borderline treason!

    JJ

  • esraa
    7 September 2004

    Re(1): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    I teach at a university and am firmly entrenched in the community. Thus, I reach a lot of folks, raising probing questions and promoting self-critique. I have an enormous personal lending library of books, articles and films that I make available to people. I have materials shipped to me at the university, avoiding censorship, as well as picking them up on my travels. I send links to websites to a large number of friends in the ME and internationally. I make it a point to share my firsthand experience with people wherever I go.

    When I lived in the US, I DID march in the streets many times. You probably would have criticized me for my efforts to promote peace and understanding 🙂 But now, when I live in a country where that right is not extended, you want to see me waving a sign in the streets.

    Life is full of subtle — and not so subtle — ironies, eh my friend? 😉

    Salaam,
    PM

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    7 September 2004

    Re: partial translation of Al-Sharq Al-Awsat’s article

    That’s very interesting, Mahmood. I’m a bit surprised to see such a sentiment in the Arab press.

    Steve

  • esraa
    7 September 2004

    Re(7): It’s a screwed up world

    Actually I think Steve is saying that there are some moral absolutes…. kind of like what we have in Islam 😉

    Therefore, I think Steve might be interested in becoming a Muslim if we guide him gently, insha’Allah 🙂

    Salaam,
    PM

  • anonymous
    7 September 2004

    Re(9): It’s a screwed up world

    Steve ..

    You say, “From writing in this forum, I have found that the Arab correspondents are smarter than I expected. My expectations were set low by reading the Arab press. I realize from reading your posts that the Arab press is pitched to an uneducated audience. You are rational well educated people. That’s very reassuring.”

    Heh heh … substitue the word Arab for the word American and you will know that we are actually quite pleasantly surprised by your knowledge as well. Not the typical American on the street. Seems like the American media might be as guilty as the Arab media, eh?! 😉

    Ok Steve .. now that you know that we are all worthy of an intelligent honest debate, perhaps you can raise the debate by helping us ask the tough questions re Islam and identity as opposed to the me good, u evil game …

    JJ

  • anonymous
    7 September 2004

    Re(8): It’s a screwed up world

    PM ..

    From the way Steve writes and argues, he has the passion of an Arab, the rigidity of a Mullah and the divine self satisfaction of an Ayatollah.

    Therefore, I think that we should do away with the standard conversion rituals, and just give him a moslem name and be done with it.

    What do we all think? Ayatollah Stevani? Steve Mateen elDin?

    JJ

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re(2): It’s a screwed up world

    I understand they did the same thing to many of the participants of the 9/11 attacks in America. The majority of the participants didn’t know they were on a suicide mission.

    I was wondering the extent Saudis watch American produced television? I would think some have access to satellite television receivers and I can only shake my head if this is the only source a typical Saudi gets his understanding of American culture.

    Scarey thought. If the only thing I understood about Americans was what I got off the television I would hate Americans too.

    When my daughter was growing up we didn’t allow television into the home for about twelve years and even then television viewing habits were closely monitored. I must have done something right because she grew into a lovely young lady in the health care profession who possesses high moral and religious standards.

    It was her mother. I often shake my head and tell myself “she didn’t get it from me”.

    Try this exercise if you are not a Muslim.

    Clear your head of thoughts and think “Muslim” and what is the first thing to pop into your mind? I think “crazed terrorist who shoots babies in the back and flies airplanes into buildings killing innocent thousands”. Even though it’s unfair, and realize I can’t accept that as truth, I still think it.

    To tell the truth I started visiting several blogs a year or so ago because I felt unsettled about the hatred I was feeling in my heart for Muslims and arabs because the world was presenting them in a way to make one think they were all “like that”.

    Of course they aren’t all like that.

    Ignorance breeds contempt and opens the door to a hateful heart. It’s the same ignorance that would have some young Saudi males believe western men are decadent, drunken thieves while western women are but loose whores.

    I reflect some Saudi men have come to America nand never left the large city of New York. God help us all if they have their ideas of America and Americans formed by a visit to only New York City.

    They were never on my families farm in north central Nebraska where they would find God fearing people who go to church at least once a week, my mother goes three times, working 3,500 acres of land to raise a family. When we see some of the things that happen in our larger cities we are just as disgusted as any Saudi would be.

    I have the feeling to many young arab men learn what America is all about, what we stand for, by listening to their clerics describe us while the clerics themselves never bothered to visit.

    By the way Mahmood, my parents grow wheat and raise cattle. We have chickens for our own consumption and my mother tends a “small” garden of 1/2 acre.

    Ignorance is what breeds the hatred.

    I refuse to be ignorant.

  • kategirl
    8 September 2004

    Re(1): Like hitting a cow’s arse with a banjo

    That’s right. We were not pals with Saddam

    Steve, I’m sorry I didn’t mean to take my claim that America and Saddam were “pals” so seriously. There was obviously no “real” freindship between the two, because after all, in Kissingerian politics no one has any “real” friends.

    My point was merely that the US had co-opted Saddam (please read the National Security Archive documents for details) and most Americans remained passive and silent even when he gassed Halabja. According to you, this would make most Americans “evil” since they were being passive to evil. There were no street protests or anything of the sort. But the truth is that most Americans are not evil… so then why did not take a stand against the fact that their government had co-opted such an evil man? In order to understand this one has to be aware of how information about world affairs was disseminated through the US public media at the time, understand the power structures at play, understand the social priorities of American activism, understand the role of Nationalism and the reluctance of Americans to challenge their government’s foreign policy whenever faced with a perceived outside threat (Communism, Shia-Islamism), etc, etc etc. I would be foolish and naive to claim that most Americans are evil by merely citing their reluctance to take to the streets when Halabja happened.

    Replace the term “Americans” by “Muslim” or “Arab” in the above paragraph and you will (hopefully) begin to understand the complexities of interpreting actions of societies. Societies are not simple black-boxes. You keep asking for the “facts to rebut your claims”, but the reality is that it takes more than just a fact or two to really understand what’s going on. If you haven’t spent any significant time living in the Middle East, then your next best alternative is to take a college course about the Middle East taught by someone who has lived there and who speaks Arabic, and also read several scholarly books and dissertations by people who have had the same level of first-hand interaction with the Middle East. Also, try watching some movies that illustrate the cultures of the Middle East (such as Destiny, West Beirut, The Season of Men, Terrorism and the Kebab, the Lizard, Yol, Distant), and also read a few fiction novels (anything by Neguib Mahfouz, Kanafani, Amin Maalouf). And also start reading articles from the freely available ISIM Newsletter.

    You need more than just facts. And I’m sorry, but I’m not willing (or able) to do your homework.

    But I do appreciate your candour and I’m glad you keep posing your questions (even though others here criticize you). Keep reading and keep interacting on these blogs. Cheers.

    Chan’ad

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re(1): It’s a screwed up world

    PM,

    “What can I say? State-sponsored PR stunts are not something we only see in the West. ”

    There are things you CAN do. When the Imam at the mosque starts preaching hatred of non-muslims get up and walk out. Write to the mosque and complain. Write to newspapers and say that this does not represent true Islam. Get your friends to write as well. You don’t even have to sign your real name.

    You cannot keep saying ‘Inshallah, one day things will be better’ and make excuses for doing nothing. God helps those who help themselves.

    “As for the war in Iraq, I think there were people all over the world that thought this would result — even if unintentionally — in an unnecessary punishment of the Iraqi people. And unfortunately, it has proven to be true. ”

    The majority of people “punishing” the Iraqi people are outside terrorists sent or supported by their fellow Muslims.

    ” But I don’t see Saddam suffering too much — he surely has adequate food, shelter and medical care.”

    Don’t worry. He’ll probably be executed before the end of next year.

    “Rather he is trying to use this human disaster to propel him into a second term and if successful, will likely wage more pre-emptive wars.”

    No. The American people are quite weary of having to fix the problems of the Muslim world.

    Regrds
    -Aliandra

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re(4): It’s a screwed up world

    Anonymous,

    You are so right about American produced entertainment. I even have to divest my European relatives of their distorted ideas about America.

    Unfortunately, violence, sex, and bad taste always finds a market.

    -Aliandra

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re(3): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re(3): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    PM,

    “What can I say? State-sponsored PR stunts are not something we only see in the West. ”

    There are things you CAN do. When the Imam at the mosque starts preaching hatred of non-muslims get up and walk out. Write to the mosque and complain. Write to newspapers and say that this does not represent true Islam. Get your friends to write as well. You don’t even have to sign your real name.

    You cannot keep saying ‘Inshallah, one day things will be better’ and make excuses for doing nothing. God helps those who help themselves.

    “As for the war in Iraq, I think there were people all over the world that thought this would result — even if unintentionally — in an unnecessary punishment of the Iraqi people. And unfortunately, it has proven to be true. ”

    The majority of people “punishing” the Iraqi people are outside terrorists sent or supported by their fellow Muslims. Was it their wrath you feared?

    ” But I don’t see Saddam suffering too much — he surely has adequate food, shelter and medical care.”

    Don’t worry. He’ll probably be executed before the end of next year.

    “Rather he is trying to use this human disaster to propel him into a second term and if successful, will likely wage more pre-emptive wars.”

    No. The American people are quite weary of having to fix the problems of the Muslim world.

    Regrds
    -Aliandra

  • esraa
    8 September 2004

    Re(4): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    Aliandra,

    When I go to mosque for the khutbah (sermon/lecture) — I usually pray at home — I attend a mosque that conducts the khutbah in English. I have never heard any political or anti-Western sentiments delivered from the minbar (pulpit), but I would indeed protest. As it is I live in a very peaceful country and this kind of politicizing is squelched.

    As for the situation in Iraq and the human damage that would result from the war — our fears were right on track with what has happened. That is, that the US did not have a good plan for the aftermath of taking down Saddam and opportunists from all corners — especially extreme Muslims — would take advantage. Sadly, we were right on this account.

    And I will be surprised if Saddam is actually executed but we will see.

    I would like the country of my birth — America — to become far less involved in trying to “fix” the world’s problems so I hope you are right on your last point.

    Salaam,
    PM

    PS: I never say insha’Allah one day things will be better and then make excuses. I challenge my Muslim brothers and sisters to be active in bringing about change. And have you ever thought that the ones you are arguing with here are not the problem? After all, we largely agree with you and are working for change.

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re(4): It’s a screwed up world

    Steve “The [un]American”, writes:

    “I lost respect for your argument when I hit the word “crusader.” If you think this is a continuation of the Crusades, you are clueless. We couldn’t care less about your religion. You can go pray to balls of twine for all we care.â€?

    It is clear that you cannot read. “This� is not a continuation of the crusdaes. I was refering to you specifically. Your wholesale, unabashed demonization of Islam and Muslims as a group betrays deep pathological hatred reminiscent of the crusaders. You are not here to learn; you already made up your mind.

    “And your characterization of Israel and Palestine is disingenuous.�

    Yeah right…keep your blinders on.

  • salima44
    8 September 2004

    Re(3): It’s a screwed up world

    [quote]“The cold fact is that most Muslims will not speak against any Muslim no matter what evil they do simply because they are Muslim. When you support evil, even through passive behavior, you become part of it.�

    Let’s try this for size, assuming he is able to deal with complexities…

    “the cold fact is that most Americans will not speak against US foreign policy in the mideast no matter what evil it represents, particularly with regards to its political, financial and military support of Israel’s brutal 27 year old occupation and aparthied practices. When you support eveil, even through passive behavior, you becomes part of it.� [/quote]

    In all fairness MOST Americans don’t know why or what US policy is in the Middle East. This is a sad fact. Many can’t find Florida on a map let alone Israel.

    I am not sure I will call Steve a crusader. Steve, as I have often said makes some very good points. It is his dealing in ABSOLUTES that makes my skin crawl. Doesn’t mean he is a bad guy but one who is passionate about what he believes. He just needs to LISTEN and ABSORB the other side of the coin. There are THREE sides to every story, yours, mine and the truth….

    [Modified by: Bonsaimark (Bonsaimark) on September 08, 2004 04:15 PM]

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re(9): It’s a screwed up world

    Steve “The American� writes:

    “Unprovable? This is unprovable, Peaceful Muslimah? That sounds like a challenge. Hmmm. Well, let’s go a googling and see what the net of truth can dredge up from the bottom where the Saudis dwell.â€?

    Wow! Steve found it on google, so it must be true!!

    Clue number 1 for Steve: Not everything you read on the net is true.

    Clue number 2 for Steve: Learn some geography. Even if the stories you read are true, Saudi arabia does not equal Muslim World, and Saudis are but a small fraction of world Muslims.

    Clue number 3 for Steve: “It’s better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you are clueless than to open your mouth and remove all doubt�

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Not the Joker, but the Ace

    I have to say, that I found this thread one of the most interesting and insightful that I have read in a while. Well done Mahmood. And thanks to Peaceful Muslimah and Chan-ad for making some great points and for moving the level of the debate up a notch. Steve .. well, what can I say. You are who you are, and I guess that after having conversed with you for soe long, I am sure that your bark is much worse than your bite. I think your main problem is not going to be what you learn from this blog – but being able to transalate what you have learned to your peers in the States.

    As for Brain O’Connell .. you really need to understand why Israel is so linked into the DNA of what is happeneing in the Middle East. You need to acknowledge the role of the SU in maintaining the brutal regime in Israel, even at the expense of every other country in the UN security council.

    The Arab world, and the Moslem world, have alot of issues. Some have to do with the stunting of true religious growth. Some have to do with the stunting of true democratic prinsiples.

    If you want us moderates to speak out and take anactive role in the way that our societies are evolving, then first you have to understand what our issues are and where are obstacles are. And then, perhaps, you could give insight of how they can be overcome. Saying that there is ‘not alot of time left’ is quite a ridicolous statement. It is actually nothing more than a veiled threat. What is the alternative? A nuclear bomb? That would also be the beginning of the end of PAx Americana. .

    So, before any threats are waved and voices raised and judgements made, please think carefully about wha you re trying to contribute to and how you do it ..

    Jasra Jedi

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    Not to defend Steve, but, we do need an overhaul of our education system .. as well as our regligious education system. We could start with some courses on comparitive religions.

    We are only as strong as our weakest link. And our education system in the ME hasn’t exactly been spewing out nuclear physicists or Nobel Laureates …

    So .. yes, we do have some work to do in our education system, and no, not all moslems are being taught to systematically hate everyone else ..

    JJ

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re(3): It’s a screwed up world

    a functioning democracy?

    hah!

    how about an apartheid system, my friend? Steve .. if one were to judge Israel in terms of how effective a democracy it is, then the real test is in how it deals with its minorities. And the answer is clear and as plain as day to see ..

    JJ

  • esraa
    8 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    I am with you there! And al hamdulillah, as an educator I have the pleasure of being involved in these reforms.

    History, religion, arts and humanities would all be welcome and would make a big difference in the way we Muslims interface with non-Muslims. Unfortunately, there is still a primary emphasis on the hard sciences, which are certainly important, but often don’t facilitate cultural understanding the way these other fields do.

    Salaam Alaikum,
    PM

  • salima44
    8 September 2004

    Re(4): It’s a screwed up world

    JJ

    For better or worse Isreal is the only Democratic nation in its neighborhood. Is it perfect? Hell no. Can it improve? Hell yes? Can the PLO do more? YOU BET. Can and should other nations do more? NO DOUBT ABOUT IT. IT IS A SCREWED UP WORLD that is for sure. Pissing and moaning (I am not saying you are)about it does little but inflame an already inflamed situation. Action is needed and I don’t mean TERROR on both sides. Isreal is here to stay. They are not going away. The PLO issue needs to be resolved. I think we can all agree on this. At least most can agree. Minority issues in all nations are a interesting facet. How about how the Armenians have been treated in Syria? Or the complete lack of religious freedom on the other end of the PIER? So the issue does not rest with “democratic” and and non democratic nations. Then you have Bahrain. Which allows all and ebraces it. Why is that? No one in Bahrain cares if I am a Christain, Jew, Muslim, Hindu or a tree huggiing Druid.Now why is that?

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    8 September 2004

    Re(8): It’s a screwed up world

    Unprovable? This is unprovable, Peaceful Muslimah? That sounds like a challenge. Hmmm. Well, let’s go a googling and see what the net of truth can dredge up from the bottom where the Saudis dwell.

    Here is a link to a story explaining how the Saudis demonize the West in the textbooks of their schools:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/saudi/story/0,11599,1260867,00.html
    The Saudis urge teachers to emphasize to the kids that “All religions other than Islam are false.” They also prohibit making friends with Christians or Jews: “Emulation of the infidels leads to loving them, glorifying them and raising their status in the eyes of the Muslim, and that is forbidden.” You can’t kill infidels if you love them.

    Here is an analysis of Saudi textbooks:
    http://www.ajc.org/InTheMedia/PubEuropeEducation.asp?did=750
    It emphasizes that “Jihad in God’s cause is a firm religious duty, a norm to be followed and an existing necessity. It is to continue [so] until the Day of Resurrection.“ If you didn’t catch it the first time, it repeats that the goal of education is “Preparing the student for Jihad in God’s cause, spiritually and physically.“

    In seventh grade, Saudis are taught that “The Muslims are the leaders of the world.â€? They also learn that about the Western imperialists, “Annihilating you and your nation is the goal. This is a war – be it overt or covert – against your religion. For this end your enemies have gathered, while there is no [other] bond or relation among them.â€?

    In eighth grade: “It is forbidden to befriend the infidels or support them or help them by any means. Anyone who befriends them deviates from the path of truth.�

    In grade nine: “Avoidance of friendship and love towards the infidels does not prevent just business relations with them, on condition that it does not lead to befriending and love.�
    “Jihad against the enemies is a religious duty.�

    In tenth grade, Saudis learn “Requital in human life is obligatory in [cases of] premeditated and offensive murder… There shall be no requital against a Muslim for an infidel, nor against a freeman for a slave.â€? In other words, there is no penalty for killing infidels or slaves. So in the Saudi view, it’s perfectly acceptable to mow down infidel children in Beslan. Being Wahhabi means never having to say you’re sorry.

    The tenth graders are given an exercise to convince their pals not to leave Saudi Arabia where dangerous infidel ideas lurk: “Your friend wants to travel outside the kingdom as a tourist and you want to convince him to desist from doing so. What are the justifications that you would mention in order to convince him to abandon his travel [idea]?�

    The tenth graders are also taught that the West is on its last legs: “Western civilization, which has lost the meaning of spirituality, finds itself in its turn on the verge of an abyss. It is a civilization on its way to dissolution and extinction.�

    More grade ten: “There are two happy endings for Jihad fighters in God’s cause: victory or martyrdom.â€?

    The Protocols of the Elders of Zion are taught as historical fact.

    This hateful and intolerant curriculum is exported by the Saudis around the world.

    The Islamic Academy in Washington, D.C. delivered Islamic studies classes using Saudi Arabian textbooks that promoted hatred of other religions:
    http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Area=sr&ID=SR01202

    Here’s a paper that details the Saudi indoctrination of an ideology of “intolerance, violence, and hate� in madrassas around the world:
    http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa511.pdf

    Here is a resolution introduced in the US Senate by Senator Charles Schumer to call on the Saudis to eradicate the hate rhetoric in their school texts:
    http://schumer.senate.gov/SchumerWebsite/pressroom/press_releases/PR01526.pf.htm l

    Here is an article that exposes the Saudi Wahhabi hate campaign: “Billions of Saudi dollars are flowing through legitimate businesses, charitable front organizations, Islamic Centers, academies, private schools, wealthy Saudi individuals and world wide criminal activities for the sole purpose of promoting a religious philosophy that is antithetical to democracy, the democratic ideals of freedom, tolerance, religious pluralism and Western civilization as we know it.�
    http://www.firefromheaven.net/news-articles/wahhabi-america.html
    The Saudis have spent an estimated $87 billion spewing the malicious venom of their homicidal Islamic cult. That’s 58 bucks for each of the 1.5 billion Muslims on Earth.

    Here is an article that outlines the spread of Saudi propaganda against America within America itself, forming a Saudi fifth column:
    http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=5270

    In this link, a rather dimwitted Saudi realizes that the Saudi hatred for the West can harm Saudis at home: “Before Sept. 11, it was just an opinion, `I think we should hate the others,’ ” [Khaled M. Batarfi, the managing editor of Al Madina] said. “After Sept. 11, we found out ourselves that some of those thoughts brought actions that hurt us, that put all Muslims on trial.”
    http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/6443/Saudi/rigid.html
    However, the Islamists took issue with this brief introspection: “You give the false impression that many people condemned the war against America, but the truth is that many people are happy declaring this war, which gave Muslims a sense of relief.”

    Here is a prominent Saudi government cleric, Shaikh Saad Al-Buraik, who preached in a government mosque in Riyadh that Muslims should rape Israeli women: “Muslim Brothers in Palestine, do not have any mercy neither compassion on the Jews, their blood, their money, their flesh. Their women are yours to take, legitimately. God made them yours. Why don’t you enslave their women? Why don’t you wage jihad? Why don’t you pillage them?â€?

    The Muslims who attacked the school in Breslan pulled 15 year old Russian girls off to rape them. In their view, they deserved no mercy nor compassion. They’re infidel women who God gave to them to enslave.

    Are these enough anecdotes, Peaceful Muslimah, or am I grossly exaggerating again? Or am I just confused?

    If you have travelled so widely in the ME and SEA, why haven’t you seen any of this malevolent Saudi influence?

    Wake up and smell the cordite, PeacefulMuslimah. The Wahhabis provide the dehumanizing and malevolent indoctrination necessary for Islamic terrorists like those at Beslan to execute men in cold blood, rape teenage girls, and shoot children in the back, all while shouting “Allahu Akbar!”

    Steve

    [Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on September 09, 2004 03:14 AM]

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    8 September 2004

    Re(9): It’s a screwed up world

    For somebody against demonizing, you seem to be pretty good at it. How do you explain this irony?

    Amused,

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    8 September 2004

    Re(2): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    OK, that’s not a bad answer.

    I certainly would not have criticized you for marching to promote peace and understanding, though I have yet to see a march that really had those as its goals. I have seen a few that posed as such though by their socialist organizers. And the people who march in them are not exactly a peaceful bunch who are really interested in understanding the other side. There are a lot of very angry and intolerant people in them. The last peace march in DC I attended (as an observer only), one of the organizers threatened to beat me up. That’s probably one of those subtle ironies you are talking about.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re: Not the Joker, but the Ace

    Too right Jedi – this O’Connell’s “I’m afraid there’s not much time left” speel sounds like the sort of apocolyptic fantasy of a virginial internet geek.

    Easy with your fantasies O’Connell, you pathetic little wanker.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    8 September 2004

    Re(2): It’s a screwed up world

    Yup. And he got exactly what he deserved, like any terrorist.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re(1): It’s a screwed up world

    PM ..

    You know what the sad irony is? The first words that ‘descended’ to the Prophet Mohammed were about education. “Read. Read in the name of the Lord who created.” That was the first verse of what we now know as the Koran.

    And where are we now?
    JJ

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    8 September 2004

    Re(3): It’s a screwed up world

    Aliandra,

    That’s a good point. I do remember something in the Old Testament about the Christian God being a jealous God. If you worship one god, Jehovah, God, Allah, or the Sun, there is no room for competition. The other gods must be defeated along with their followers. For polytheistic religions, the more gods, the merrier. Hop on board!

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    8 September 2004

    Re(3): It’s a screwed up world

    It’s also worth pointing out that not all Muslims live in oppressive regimes. There are plenty who live in free Western countries who are not rejecting Muslim terrorism and are not marching against it, even though they are perfectly free to do so.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re(5): It’s a screwed up world

    I tried to register but it won’t let me. 🙁 I keep getting sent to the log in page.

    I’ve often worried about the portrayal our television makes to the rest of the world. It’s really bad news I am afraid. Look at MTV for example… what horrible stuff that portrays us as so self-indulgent which we are not. Everyone should know there are a lot of parents that don’t allow that trash into the house.

  • esraa
    8 September 2004

    Re(2): It’s a screwed up world

    Yes, I know JJ.

    But many of us are reading and rather than get discouraged we must engender the same enthusiasm in our brothers and sisters. I know I try and I am sure you do as well.

    Let’s take heart in that, dear, and let it renew our faith in following the TRUE path of our Blessed Prophet (saw). And I’m not taking about growing a beard or entering the toilet with the correct foot 😉

    Salaam Alaikum,
    PM

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    8 September 2004

    Re(7): It’s a screwed up world

    For you, Jasra, I will explicitly say that the majority opinion is not always right. For example, a majority supported the continuation of slavery in the US, which was definitely wrong. And of course, the classic flaw in democracy is that the majority can vote for measures that drain the treasury dry for their immediate gain and destroy the government. The election of Hitler is an example of another self-destructive majority voting in a dictator to dismantle their democracy.

    The beauty of democracy is that it can correct itself if its headed for the ditch but not if its driven off a cliff.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    8 September 2004

    Re(9): It’s a screwed up world

    Hmmmm. The Ayatollah Steve does have a ring to it. But I’m afraid it just won’t work. I couldn’t stand growing a beard. I had a moustache for a while but I couldn’t stand it being full of soup and crumbs all the time.

    But, hey, keep those ideas coming.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re: Not the Joker, but the Ace

    Alright JJ, tell us how to end the Palestinian/Israeli crisis. Not a trick question.
    I assume you are going to say stop all aid/diplomatic support of Israel which is fine as long as we end our support/aid to the Palestinians. Also going to expect all Arab governments to end their aid/support to Palestinians as well.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    8 September 2004

    Re(3): It’s a screwed up world

    I lost respect for your argument when I hit the word “crusader.” If you think this is a continuation of the Crusades, you are clueless. We couldn’t care less about your religion. You can go pray to balls of twine for all we care. And your characterization of Israel and Palestine is disingenuous.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re(5): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    PM,

    I know Muslims here are not the problem and I apologize for giving that impression. It is just very frustrating to see so many Muslims blame us for all that is wrong. We get blamed for supporting bad governments and get blamed for removing them.

    The most important opinion about the Iraq war belongs, of course, to the Iraqi people. Let’s see a few years down the road how Iraq compares to the rest of the mid-east.

    And yes, it’s long past time America stopped being the world’s problem solver as well as its ATM machine. We need to realize that the world must fix its own problems and provide for its own financial well being.

    -Aliandra

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    8 September 2004

    Re(2): It’s a screwed up world

    Maybe the Muslim world should reexamine its relationship with Israel and strive to emulate a functioning democracy rather than destroy it for religious reasons. It seems like paying people to blow themselves up to kill a few people shopping for groceries is throwing good money to an evil cause.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    8 September 2004

    Re: Like hitting a cow’s arse with a banjo

    That’s right. We were not pals with Saddam.

    Go crack a history book and you will find out that nations send emissaries to nations they hold in low regard all the time. We sent ambassadors and emissaries to the Soviet Union while Reagan rightly called it an evil empire. Nixon shook hands with Mao but that doesn’t mean he or we respected Communist China. Madeleine Albright went to North Korea to meet with Kim Jong Il and we are hardly pals with that crazy evil dictator. We have foreign service officers meet with the evil brutes in Myanmar where they commonly hold guns to their heads to intimidate them. Yet they meet. But it’s hardly friendly.

    You’re taking a rather simplistic approach to international relations.

    And sport, we didn’t have any say in what weapons Saddam used in his wars of aggression. You may find this hard to believe, but America is not to blame for the evil other countries do. When Iraq uses WMDs, you just might try blaming Iraq for using WMDs.

    Steve

    [Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on September 07, 2004 11:44 PM]

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    8 September 2004

    Re(2): Cold facts

    [quote]Instead he’s got all the weight and intellectual depth of an unflushed turd bobbing unwelcomingly in a public toilet. [/quote]

    If only I had your intellectual depth.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re(6): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    Aliandra ..

    its also long past time that America stops giving short term solutions that generate other long term problems. (e.g. support islamic fundamentalism in order to get the afghanis to fight the then enemy of the state – the godless russians).

    as for america being the atm machine? hmm. america does not pay for these wars alone, my dear. look at how much money actually goes from the ME to America on defense contracts alone. Let alone Halliburton, etc.

    someone was talking earlier about the UN. HAs the US paid its dues? also – you might want to take a look at Kyoto and some of the trade rounds negotiatons. And take a look at the US position on all of these things.

    You will realize that when the rubber hits the road, the difference between what we all hear publicly about US ideology – does not correspond between the positions that the US government takes.

    You may wish to examine the roots of why the global community questions America’s double standards – or more politely – short term foriegn policy vision.

    perhaps then you will realize that far from being America’s proble solver, America actualyl does a great job in compounding some of these problems ..

    JJ

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re(1): Not the Joker, but the Ace

    Anonymous writes:
    “Alright JJ, tell us how to end the Palestinian/Israeli crisis. Not a trick question.”

    I’ll bite. How about a secular democratic state in which all individual have equal rights?

    “I assume you are going to say stop all aid/diplomatic support of Israel which is fine as long as we end our support/aid to the Palestinians. Also going to expect all Arab governments to end their aid/support to Palestinians as well.”

    This is akin to calling for all to stop supporting non-whites in aparthied South Africa, which like Israel was a settler-colinialist state, before withholding moral and economic support to the Apartheid state.

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re: Not the Joker, but the Ace

    Not that you’re required to agree with our host, but the Joker analogy was Mahmood’s. And just as he complained about, you are saying that ending extemism is dependent on a solution in I/P. (An Ace, no less.)

    If Israel harms Arabs, does it make sense to say that you will not do anything to improve Arab societies and your own lives until this other harm is removed? Of course not. If liberalization succeeds, it would actually make you better able to deal with Israel.

    [i]If you want us moderates to speak out and take an active role in the way that our societies are evolving, then first you have to understand what our issues are and where are obstacles are. [/i]

    Why? If the US doesn’t change it’s position on Israel, you won’t take an active role in the evolution of your own societies? Who are you spiting? It’s seems as though you’re using the improvement of your own lives as a bargaining chip against the US. But don’t do it because the US wants you to; do it because you’ll be better off.

    I don’t mean to give veiled threats. There are several things that could happen which could be disasterous. Iran will have the bomb in a few years. Pakistan could tumble at any time. Iraq could go the wrong way. Now we’re reminded that the Caucasus aren’t particularly stable. And Al Qaeda could escalate its attacks around the world.

    I don’t have a crystal ball. Maybe you have all the time in the world.

    Brian O’Connell

  • esraa
    8 September 2004

    Re(3): It’s a screwed up world

    While it is true that dissenting voices of the status quo are often labeled Zionists — or subjected to the more “benign” treatment which is to publicly question and refute that we ARE Muslims at all — I don’t think this keeps most people of strong morals and principles silent. The truth is that we are speaking out and working to stop this scourge of extremism, it’s just not demonstrating in the manner most used by Westerners (ie., marches, rallies, etc.).

    Rather we write, we speak and write among friends, at work, at school, etc. And that gets very little press coverage by the state-owned information networks.

    Salaam Aalikum,
    PM

  • salima44
    8 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    As well as an overhaul of the press..err lack of Free Press in the entire Middles East.

  • esraa
    8 September 2004

    Re(9): It’s a screwed up world

    Steve,

    I have treated you respectfully and I expect you to do the same. My name is Peaceful Muslimah and I will appreciate it if you don’t disrespect that again.

    What is unprovable — as I clearly quoted — is the question of a “large proportion” of Muslims being taught that it is okay to kill non-Muslims.

    The term “proportion” refers to the relationship between parts and a whole. If the whole is 1.5 billion Muslims (your numbers) and the part if 1.5 million, as I pointed out, you can hardly refer to that as a large proportion of Muslims. That is my point about your exaggeration and I stand by it.

    Now do you get it?

    As for Wahabbi hatred I couldn’t agree more. It must be wiped out.

    And yes, I do travel widely in the Muslim world and in fact live in the Muslim world. I am an American, too, Steve. And the malevolence I see is in the press among a PROPORTIONIONAL minority of Muslims, but definitely not the majority.

    Have you left the US and actually visited any Muslim country? It is certainly a more effective way to learn about Muslims than on the internet or watching the news. You would be welcome here in Qatar and I would love to share with you the positive developments taking place.

    Salaam,
    PM

  • esraa
    8 September 2004

    Re(3): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    NO — anyone threatening to beat you up at a peace rally is not subtle or ironic. That is what I call violent and defeats the purpose of the rally, eh?

    Salaam,
    PM

  • esraa
    8 September 2004

    Re(2): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    Aliandra,

    What can I say? State-sponsored PR stunts are not something we only see in the West.

    As for the war in Iraq, I think there were people all over the world that thought this would result — even if unintentionally — in an unnecessary punishment of the Iraqi people. I certainly did. And unfortunately, it has proven to be true.

    This war is NOT Bush’s finest hour and sadly the Iraqis — as well as American/”coalition of the willing” soldiers and foreign workers — have suffered the most. But I don’t see Saddam suffering too much — he surely has adequate food, shelter and medical care. In fact, I don’t see Bush and cronies suffering too much either, do you? Rather he is trying to use this human disaster to propel him into a second term and if successful, will likely wage more pre-emptive wars.

    Salaam,
    PM

  • esraa
    8 September 2004

    Re(6): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    Aliandra,

    I think we agree about a lot more than we disagree about. And we do share a frustration as Americans about the perception of our country in the international arena. Perhaps if the US does really withdraw to a position of not solving all the problems or funding all the solutions, others will learn valuable lessons that enable them to strengthen their own societies and address the needs of their citizens.

    Of course, we’ll have to pray that the higher minded human instincts prevail… which is a whole other issue 😉

    Salaam,
    PM

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re(1): Not the Joker, but the Ace

    Brian ..

    let me give you an interesting piece of information, in bahrain, over the past few years, there were more marches and rallies in the streets on the palestinian issue than there was about unemployment or corporate governance.

    if we want our parliament to take strong positions on government inefficiences, and if we are to start debating fundamental issues in the media and in the lower house such as the sustainability of the current welfare state with all its subsidies, the public must be a willing player. if the public is fixated on us foriegn policy, then how far can the government go in terms of introducing fundamental reforms that will shock the core of our socieites?

    again .. we are only ever as strong as the weakest link. and the US position as a super power that claims moral authority is only as credible as its weakest link – which its treatment of the Arab-Israeli issue.

    What would it take? A real commitment to peace. Starting with just stopping the fr***ing settlements. And, yes, I also think that the Palestinians should change their fr***ing leasdership too.

    Hope that clarifies things a tad?

    JJ

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    Al Jazira is relatively free – as is some of the Lebanese press … Al J’s just needs a strong dosage of editorial integirity. perhaps a little bit of competition would be great here ..

    JJ

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re(4): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    The purpose of the “peace” rallies was not to promote peace, but to take sides against America. The organizers of the “peace” marches in DC were socialists posing as pacifists. Threatening bystanders supports their true aim of taking over the streets.

    Steve

  • esraa
    8 September 2004

    Re(3): It’s a screwed up world

    Al hamdulillah (Thanks to God) for people like you. If each one of us with even half a brain would take a hard look at ourselves and actually aspire to self-improvement, imagine what a world we could live in.

    I see little difference between the God-centered lives of many of my Christian & Jewish friends and family members, and those of my devoted Muslim brothers and sisters.

    God Bless and salaam,
    PM

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re(5): It’s a screwed up world

    good question. if i had to hazard a guess its because bahrain is made up of different ethnic and religious groups that somehow, have been able to live next to each other in “relative’ harmony.

    but – i am interested in why you think that there is tolerance here?

    JJ

  • esraa
    8 September 2004

    Re(4): It’s a screwed up world

    I agree with you here. And this is the biggest insult of all to a host or adoptive country.

    I would just point out that many Muslims I know of ME origin in the US, have been too fearful of calling attaention to themselves in any way. I have encouraged them to join forces with non-Muslims anti-terror protesters.

    Salaam,
    PM

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re(7): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    JJ,

    We ARE the world’s ATM machine, my dear. When poor countries need money for loans, food, grain, AIDS drugs, etc, where do they go? We’ve given billions to Mexico, Israel and Egypt. We’ve given the equivalent of several Marshall Plans to Africa, with dubious results. We are the prime donor to the IMF. Let’s cut the gravy train and start helping our own first. God knows, there’s millions of folks here that could use the help.

    You think we’re the only country in the world that applies double standards? The only one that looks out for its own interests? ALL countries do it when convenient. It doesn’t excuse it but it’s a fact of living on Planet Earth. The rest of the world should stop holding us to impossible standards that their own countries fall far short of meeting.

    -Aliandra

  • esraa
    8 September 2004

    Re(1): Like hitting a cow’s arse with a banjo

    Steve,

    You must know that we supported Saddam in the 80s in the war with Iran because it suited our political agenda. The same with OBL in Afghanistan because of our anti-Russian (ie., communism) stance.

    All I am saying is that I would like to see American foreign policy become more visionary and far-sighted, in order to prevent more wars like the one in Iraq, as well as make wars like the one on terror unnecessary.

    Salaam,
    PM

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re(10): It’s a screwed up world

    Sorry, PM. It was sloppiness on my part, not an intentional insult. I’ll change it.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re(1): It’s a screwed up world

    Steve,

    The democratic countries should quit and form their own UN.

    The one we have now is laughable. It puts dictators and tyrannical regimes on the same level as respected democracies. Choosing Syria and Cuba for the human rights council is a case in point.

    -Aliandra

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re(7): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    JJ,

    You think the US is the only country that applies double standards? The only one that looks out for its own interests? ALL counties do it when convenient. It doesn’t excuse it but it’s a fact of living on Planet Earth. We’re not perfect. Neither is anyone else. The rest of the world should stop holding the US to impossible standards that their own countries fall far short of meeting.

    -Aliandra

  • kategirl
    8 September 2004

    Re(5): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    Come on Steve. I’ve been to enough of these marches. Yes, there definitely are a number of hard-core socialists wearing their berets, and anarchists with their cans of spray paint at the front of the march. Socialists and anarchists are not of necessity bad people, but certainly at these peace marches some of them have a been known to cause trouble by smashing up a McDs or Starbucks on their way. But these people and their actions do not account for the vast majority of participants at a peace march. The overwhelming majority of marchers are people like you and me who have a conscience and would like to see more peace in this world. Don’t judge the rest of the marchers just because a few of them are trouble-makers.

    Chan’ad

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    Aliandra ..

    I certainly dont hold the US to impossible standards. I am merely holding the US to what the US leadership spouts out when using the moral high ground to justify war …

    Your government is hanging itself by its own chords ..

    JJ

  • salima44
    8 September 2004

    Re(6): It’s a screwed up world

    JJ,

    I agree. I think one of the big reasons Bahrain is so open is the fact it has had a strong blend of ethnic and religious groups for 100’s of years. Of course being a PORT COUNTRY helps.

    The past and current leadership of Bahrain has not allowed intolerance to be fed into the system, as witnessed when HH called the native Jewish Bahrani’s to a meeting after his father passed away to assure them that they had nothing to fear upon his ascent to the throne. That action sends a strong single that Bahrain is a very open society and embraces these freedoms.

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    The Shia have much nicer beards than the Salafists. They arent straggly and actually have nicer thobes. Look at the Iranian mullahs for example .. kind of like a George Michael permanent 5 o’clock shadow ..

    JJ

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re(10): It’s a screwed up world

    Steve, the “amused unAmerican”, writes:

    “For somebody against demonizing, you seem to be pretty good at it. How do you explain this irony?”

    A dolt like you does not recognize the difference between demonizing whole classes of people be they Jews or Muslims, and demonizing an individual spouting off such hatred.

    Amused,

    Steve

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re(4): It’s a screwed up world

    jj,

    Whatever Israel’s faults, the Arab citizen minority is allowed to vote and criticize the government. Compared to what’s around it, Israel is a functioning democracy.

    -Aliandra

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re(5): It’s a screwed up world

    Aliandra writes:

    jj,

    “Whatever Israel’s faults, the Arab citizen minority is allowed to vote and criticize the government.”

    Yes, they vote but are not accorded the same rights as Jews.
    For example, did you know that 97% of land within the 67 borders
    is – by law – reserved exclusivly to Jews. Non-Jews, who make up 20% of the ‘citizens’ are not allowed to buy or rent that land.
    Now, through in the occupied west bank and gaza and you have
    a clear, unadulterated apartheid system, where rights and land is usurped from the indeginous population (non-Jews) for the
    benefit of settlers who are accorded full right as citiznes in the “jewish state”, just because they are Jews.

    “Compared to what’s around it, Israel is a functioning democracy.”

    so was Aparthied South Africa, by this standard.

  • esraa
    8 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    JJ,

    LOL re: beards! 😛

    Yes, it does make one look upon Mookie Al-Sadr in a different light than say…Mullah Omar 😉

    As for the thobe of the Irani ayatollahs — the bisht helps dress ’em up a bit, don’t you think? I always liked that look 😛

    Salaam Alaikum,
    PM

  • anonymous
    8 September 2004

    Re: how to become a cleric in 13 easy steps

    Mahmood,

    I am sitting here drinking a fine cup of coffee enjoying your blog as I usually do and read this

    [quote]12. wear a turban (wind it TIGHT) [/quote]

    which resulted in said coffee spewed all over my keyboard.

    Bravo!

  • anonymous
    9 September 2004

    Re(7): It’s a screwed up world

    See http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=68649.

    Arabs migrating illegally to Israel to ‘improve standard of living’. Israelis not happy.

  • anonymous
    9 September 2004

    Re(7): It’s a screwed up world

    Aliandra writes:

    “Yet the 20% Arab minority won’t migrate to other Arab countries where no such apartheid is practiced.”

    Even if that was an option for them, why do you expect them, or for that matter any indigenous people, to cede their homeland to another group bent on maintaining an exclusivist state?

    “Apparently, living with apartheid in Israel sure beats living elsewhere in the mid-east.�

    Let’s see: Why didn’t Balck South Africans migrate to other African countries where no apartheid is practiced? Apparently, living with apartheid is South Africa beats living elsewhere in Africa.

    “I’m not condoning Isreal’s policies by any means. I’m just making an observation.â€?

    It is interesting to note that similar “observationsâ€? were being made to minimize the evil of Apartheid in South Africa: that blacks are better off economically under Apartheid than in other African countries, that white security must take precedence over the political rights of non-whites, that there is no democracy in most African countries, that Apartheid South Africa is surrounded by hostile non-democratic states, that “Blacks kill more Blacks than Whites do”, that the mostly European settlers are naturally superior to the indigenous inhabitants who do not know “democracy”, that the resistance of the indigenous oppressed people is nothing more than “terrorism”, and so on. All these arguments were treated as bunk (many are patently racist)in the case of South Africa, and they should be viewed as such with regards to Apartheid Israel.

  • anonymous
    9 September 2004

    Re(3): Not the Joker, but the Ace

    Tsk Tsk …

    Now, what did we say about not putting words into other people’s mouths?

    I dont recall using the Palestinian issue as the reason why we cannot push for reforms in Bahrain! We started Parliament and have done some incredible things inspite and despite of the global events raging around us. Saudi Arabia notwithstanding.

    And, I am not anti US. In fact, if anything, I have a stupid blind loyal admiration for how the US functions as a society and as an economy. I love MTV, and Hollywood and Microsoft and the iPod. I also love watching West Wing and the Discovery Channel.

    But .. I do have an opinion that the US has not yet really ever been an honest broker in the Arab Israeli issue. And I do think that left up to the Arabs and the Israelis alone – there will never be lasting peace. And I do think that the American Jews in the States actually pose a greater threat to the future of Israel than the Israeli Jews who live in Israel. And unfortunately, its the organized power of the American Jews in the US who are going to place considerable pressure on any US President who dares to get fundamentally involved in chartering the future course of Israel.

    Like the US administration has to cater to the demands of the rich American Jewish voters re its policy towards Israel. Bahrain’s fledgling democracy has to cater to the demands of the Bahraini people re the policies towards Israel.

    Long live the will of the people .. 😉

    JJ

  • anonymous
    9 September 2004

    Re(4): Not the Joker, but the Ace

    Too right – too many Americans are under the mistaken impression that Israel and the US’s interests are the same. They’re not no matter what the neocons and their friends in the media say. These been a massive damage limitation exercise in the US press over this latest spy scandal involving AIPAC, but even so it shows where they’re coming from.

    What amazes me is how these neocons shift from Israel’s government to America’s and no one thinks anything strange. For instance Douglas Feith – No 3 at the Pentagon and whose office is where this spy scandal is emanating out of – previously was an advisor to Netanyahu. He was suggesting exactly the same policies for the Israeli government as he’s now doing in the US government.

    Highlight this and you’re accused of punching below the belt.

  • anonymous
    9 September 2004

    Re(5): Not the Joker, but the Ace

    Anon writes:
    “Too right – too many Americans are under the mistaken impression that Israel and the US’s interests are the same. They’re not no matter what the neocons and their friends in the media say. These been a massive damage limitation exercise in the US press over this latest spy scandal involving AIPAC, but even so it shows where they’re coming from.

    What amazes me is how these neocons shift from Israel’s government to America’s and no one thinks anything strange. For instance Douglas Feith – No 3 at the Pentagon and whose office is where this spy scandal is emanating out of – previously was an advisor to Netanyahu. He was suggesting exactly the same policies for the Israeli government as he’s now doing in the US government.

    Highlight this and you’re accused of punching below the belt.”

    Well said. Check these out:

    http://antiwar.com/pat/?articleid=3517

    http://www.counterpunch.org/christison09062004.html

  • anonymous
    9 September 2004

    Re(8): It’s a screwed up world

    “Even if that was an option for them, why do you expect them, or for that matter any indigenous people, to cede their homeland to another group bent on maintaining an exclusivist state?�

    And just why isn’t fleeing an option? Is it because, the other Arab states, who purport to care so much for them, don’t want them? Kuwait thew thousands of Palestininan workers out when they supported Saddam’s invasion. Other than Jordan and Lebanon (and the Palestinians took that country to civil war) what other Arab country has offered them asylum? The Palestinians have been living in miserable refugee camps for decades. 70% of the popluation is on UN handouts. With all the wealth in Gulf, why isn’t any of that money going to improve their living standards? Why not bring them to rich Gulf lands where they can be safe until this damn conflict gets resolved? We have been saying for years that the rest of the Arab states couldn’t care less about the Palestinians. They are pawns, used to irritate Israel and no more.

    “the resistance of the indigenous oppressed people is nothing more than “terrorism”,

    Sending your 16 year girl with a bomb strapped to her waist to blow herself up in a grocery is beyond ‘resistance’. These tactics aren’t winning the Palestinians a lot of sympathy. I’ll wager if the Palies had tried the Ghandi plan (passive resistance) first, the whole world would have been on their side.

    -Aliandra

  • anonymous
    9 September 2004

    Re(8): It’s a screwed up world

    People always choose the lesser of two evils, my friend.

  • anonymous
    9 September 2004

    Re(4): Not the Joker, but the Ace

    JJ writes:

    “Like the US administration has to cater to the demands of the rich American Jewish voters re its policy towards Israel. Bahrain’s fledgling democracy has to cater to the demands of the Bahraini people re the policies towards Israel.”

    The difference is that the former is being done by spinless/ignorant politicians cowtowing to special interest, even at the expense of long-term national interest of the US.

    “Long live the will of the people ..”

    The US blind support for Israel is less a true manifistation of the “will of the people” in the US and more a reflection of of a misinformed population disengaged from foreign policy, hypocritical politicians, and the corrupting influence of special interest.

  • anonymous
    9 September 2004

    Re(9): It’s a screwed up world

    Aliandra: “And why isn’t fleeing an option?”.

    If I come round your house, beat up your family and throw you out, they’re the words I’ll use if you protest.

  • anonymous
    9 September 2004

    Re(5): Not the Joker, but the Ace

    “The US blind support for Israel is less a true manifistation of the “will of the people” in the US and more a reflection of of a misinformed population disengaged from foreign policy, hypocritical politicians, and the corrupting influence of special interest.â€?

    And the Arabs’ blind support for the Palestinians is …??

    -Aliandra

  • anonymous
    9 September 2004

    Re(9): It’s a screwed up world

    I wrote:

    “Even if that was an option for them, why do you expect them, or for that matter any indigenous people, to cede their homeland to another group bent on maintaining an exclusivist state?�

    Aliandra replied:

    �And just why isn’t fleeing an option?�

    We can discuss that (see below), but do you care to answer my question:
    why do you expect them, or for that matter any indigenous people, to cede their homeland to another group bent on maintaining an exclusivist state.

    “ Is it because, the other Arab states, who purport to care so much for them, don’t want them? Kuwait thew thousands of Palestininan workers out when they supported Saddam’s invasion. Other than Jordan and Lebanon (and the Palestinians took that country to civil war) what other Arab country has offered them asylum? The Palestinians have been living in miserable refugee camps for decades. 70% of the popluation is on UN handouts. With all the wealth in Gulf, why isn’t any of that money going to improve their living standards? Why not bring them to rich Gulf lands where they can be safe until this damn conflict gets resolved? We have been saying for years that the rest of the Arab states couldn’t care less about the Palestinians. They are pawns, used to irritate Israel and no more.�

    That may very well be the case, but we are talking about your so-called “functioning democracy�, apartheid Israel, and the inalienable rights of indegenous people to their homeland. You respond by “observing� that there are others in the region who are bad, implying that Israeli apartheid is okay. Just to carry the anaology a bit more: why wasn’t fleeing an option for Black South Africans. Is it because, the other African states, who purport to care so much for them, don’t want them?

    “Why not bring them to rich Gulf lands where they can be safe until this damn conflict gets resolved?�

    How cute… These are people, not cattle to be shipped around
    for safe keeping.

    What you are suggesting is complete ethic cleansing, something that would warm the heart of zionists and finish what they did in 1948 and 1967. How that is supposed to contribute to “resolving the conflict� is beyond me. And what if they refused? Should they be blamed for their misry, if they choose to stay put? How dare those pesky Palestinians want to live in their own homeland!

    There is a simpler, more principled solution that does not involve the war crime of ethnic cleansing; it’s called ending the occupation and granting Pleastinians equal rights in their homeland.

  • anonymous
    9 September 2004

    Re(6): Not the Joker, but the Ace

    “And the Arabs’ blind support for the Palestinians is …??”

    Please inform us. Inquiring minds want to know.

  • anonymous
    9 September 2004

    Re(6): Not the Joker, but the Ace

    aliandra ..

    first you say that the arabs dont support the palestinians as evidenced by how the lebanese treat them, (nor not, as they case may be). then you say that the arabs support the palestinians blindly. i am not sure what ur point hs.

    JJ

  • anonymous
    9 September 2004

    Re(5): Not the Joker, but the Ace

    Look, there are so many special interests groups in this country that a canidate couldn’t cover his bases no matter what. I think the Jewish lobby, while strong, is like the Mafia and is losing it’s power because of other interest groups. But aside from that, the majority of Americans do support Israel for the reason Steve mentioned. They just know bad things have been happening in the ME for nearly 50 years.

    They view it this way. The UN decided something about the 2 countries (not going there right or wrong), and the Palestinians wouldn’t accept it and have enlisted the entire ME to wage war against Israel. They exported terrorism all over the globe for many years against many peoples. They viewed Israel’s actions over the years as nothing more than self defense, although that attitude is changing with time as well. They cannot understand after all this time, when given the opportunity to reach a peace settlement, why both sides don’t take the best deal and get on with their lives. I don’t think the US is alone in their taking sides with Israel in terms of dealing with the Palestinians and deem that Israel has the right to self defense. Certainly the media plays a perception in our views of the situation, but with every new sucide bomb, people react just like the Russian school ordeal, and the Palestinians are seen as less and less as occupied people and more and more as simple terrorists. Those pictures of the kids running around with guns don’t help either.

    So blame Bush, Clinton, Carter and the neocons, but I am afraid the Palestinian’s have a real PR problem with the average American and much of that is the fault of the Palestianians themselves.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    9 September 2004

    Re: Not the Joker, but the Ace

    It’s true, Jasra. I have not bitten anyone in several days.

    There’s not going to be much of a problem in translating any of these issues here to my peers. They’re not interested in any of it. They are about as interested in Middle Eastern issues as they are in the history of ancient Tibet. They don’t see it as having anything to do with them or their lives. About all most Americans know about the Middle East is that bad things happen there a lot.

    Steve

  • esraa
    9 September 2004

    Re(11): It’s a screwed up world

    Not only would I agree that one Wahabbi extremist terrorist is too many, but I would also say that we Muslims should be concerned about their impact everywhere — not just the US. Not only are they calling our young brothers to arms in an unholy jihad, but they espouse severe transgressions of human rights violations. Not to mention the fact that they seriously damage the reputation of Muslims.

    Now, regarding Qatar — you are correct that this is a wonderfully peaceful country and we have been spared so-called “religiously” motivated violence (by Catholics or Muslims ;)).

    And you are certainly welcome here — I have so many friends of different backgrounds who are always quick to extend the Arab hand of hospitality to any of my visitingfriends or family. You just let me know when 🙂

    Salaam,
    PM

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    9 September 2004

    Re(10): It’s a screwed up world

    What an intellectually lazy rebuttal. If some of this is not true, which ones? This is all stuff I have read at one time or another in the Washington Post or Wall Street Journal. I couldn’t find the quote in the WaPo from the Saudi sponsored school here where the text told the Muslim children that it was OK to steal from or hurt infidels.

    As I have pointed out, the Saudis have spent $87 billion to spread their vile Wahhabi indoctrination throughout the Muslim world and beyond. Where ever you go in the Muslim world, there is a Wahhabi indoctrinating Muslims to hate America and the West. This is hardly a secret.

    As for your number 3, the problem is that you haven’t done your homework. The pernicious Saudi influence is well documented throughout the media. It’s true even if you choose to bury your head in the sand to ignore it.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    9 September 2004

    Re(10): It’s a screwed up world

    Jasra,

    Reading translations of the Arab media is very discouraging. There are tabloids in America that tell fantastic lies about space aliens and possessed toasters and such, but there is no equivalent to the lies and prejudice plainly stated in much of the press published by the Arab states and political factions. It’s depressing to read it because you know its impossible to even make a dent in such irrational thinking.

    Steve

  • esraa
    9 September 2004

    Re(7): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    Actually Steve, just a slight correction. Workers Wolrd Party is a Marxist-Leninist organization, not Stalinist. I should know — I used to be a commie in my youth 😉 I have a good friend who has been in the WWP leadership since the early 90s, and while we disagree on many things, the one thing we do agree upon is that we both would like the US to stop being the world’s “policeman” and so-called “savior” — and focus on domestic issues.

    But you are right in their basic aim — which is to promote the end of capitalism through the destruction of the government as we know it. But they will never be successful, and I suspect they all know it. What they do is use the party as a platform for coalition building to address various political and social issues.

    Salaam from a former red 😉
    PM

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    9 September 2004

    Re(10): It’s a screwed up world

    [quote]As for Wahabbi hatred I couldn’t agree more. It must be wiped out. [/quote]

    So we agree on this but disagree on the size of its influenece. We can agree that it’s not the majority.

    But PM, even if only one out of a thousand Muslims take up the Wahhabi view and come to America to kill us, that would place Muslims in disrepute. How many Catholics are coming to Qatar to kill Muslims? Zero. What Christian religion teachs that it is OK to harm Muslims? None.

    Thank you for the invitation. Who knows when I may have a few extra pennies in my pocket to take advantage of it. It would be very welcome news to find a friendly reception in a Muslim country.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    9 September 2004

    Re(11): It’s a screwed up world

    So that’s the explanation. Demonizing is OK as long as its done against the right people, right? Thanks for clearing that up.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    9 September 2004

    Re(12): It’s a screwed up world

    Let me guess, MEMRI is a Jewish conspiracy to defame Islam, right?

    Steve

  • mohd
    9 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    I know for a fact, that most musims are embarrassed that such ignorance is propogated among its faithful. And granted all of us would be less worried if the end result weren’t a collection of bodybags.

    Steve, it’s not going to accomplish anything by getting Arab intellectuals to admit that we have a problem on our hands. We know that, that’s why we’re doing our best to bring about a separation of Mosque and State, to combat illiteracy and ignorance, to sustain progress along with family and societal values. Instead of constantly rubbing it in our faces, it may help for you to understand the nature of the battle we face.

    As far as teaching intolerance, Christian scriptures may be off the hook (homosexual opposition notwithstanding), but you can’t deny that Islamophobia has long had a place in Christian preaching, writing and thought. Just google General Boykins. God has yet to get back to us as to which Kitab His Ahl should adhere to at the expense of the others.

    This really should be about erasing those prejudices and building bridges.

  • esraa
    9 September 2004

    Re(6): Not the Joker, but the Ace

    Aliandra,

    Arab nations are only paying lip service to supporting Palestinians. They have not accepted immigrations freely, nor garnered their collective negotiating power to bring about diplomatic relations with Israel which I believe would result in peace accords and ultimately support for an autonomous Palestinian state.

    And blind patriotism undermines the improvement and development of nationsthat results from the pressures brought by the dissatisfied populace. It’s not good for Americans and it’s not good for Arabs.

    Salaam,
    PM

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    9 September 2004

    Re(12): It’s a screwed up world

    One of my old flying buddies was in Qatar during this last war but I don’t think he saw anything past the base fence.

    Let me see if I won the Virginia MegaMillions lottery last night. If I’m $31 million richer today, I might make my Steve World Tour.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    9 September 2004

    Re(13): It’s a screwed up world

    Lol – funny you should ask Steve. It was set up and financed by Israeli Meryav Wurmser and Richard Perle.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    9 September 2004

    Re(8): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    I’m not sure which is worse, Marxist-Leninist or Stalinist. Yet the WWP supports the Stalinist regime of North Korea. Their revolutions are washed in buckets of blood.

    There are a lot of people here in the States who wish we weren’t the world’s policemen either but when the natives go berserk in Rwanda or the Balkans or Afghanistan, who ya gonna call to stop it? France?

    I certainly hope you’ve sobered up since your commie days.

    Steve

  • kategirl
    9 September 2004

    Re(11): It’s a screwed up world

    Steve,

    May I dare ask where you are reading these translations of the Arab media. Please don’t say your source is MEMRI.

    I’m not too sure exactly what in the Arab media you’ve been reading, but from my judgements, the New York Post is about as bad as any Arabic paper I’ve come across. But I agree with you that even the big mainstream Arabic papers are filled with conspiracy stories.

    – Chan’ad

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    9 September 2004

    Re(3): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    [quote]What can I say? State-sponsored PR stunts are not something we only see in the West. [/quote]

    That’s a good point. Many a “spontaneous” demonstration in the Middle East is commanded by the state and organized by the mullahs. In Iran, the mullahs give them a free chicken dinner for attending. Sometimes they award the kids extra money for chanting “Death to America” with special enthusiasm.

    [quote]As for the war in Iraq, I think there were people all over the world that thought this would result — even if unintentionally — in an unnecessary punishment of the Iraqi people. I certainly did. And unfortunately, it has proven to be true. [/quote]

    Not quite true. An Iraqi group examining the records left over at Baathist headquarters (those Baathists were demons for record-keeping, as good as the Nazis) estimate that Saddam would have executed about 70,000 Iraqis per year had he not been chased into his spiderhole. By contrast, only a few thousand have been killed by Americans, the bulk of those in combat. To be blunt, it is good for Iraq for the thugs of the Mahdi Army to be dead. There are not many Iraqis who will miss them.

    [quote]This war is NOT Bush’s finest hour and sadly the Iraqis — as well as American/”coalition of the willing” soldiers and foreign workers — have suffered the most.[/quote]

    I’d say Saddam and his evil minions have suffered the most and rightfully so. The Saddam Fedayeen took a righteous beating.

    It really is a fine thing to remove a mass-murdering tyrant from power. It is a fine thing to open the tap to refill the marshes so that the people whom Saddam punished there could resume their age old life. It is also fine to restore water and power to people whom Saddam punished by cutting it off on a whim.

    Finest of all is Bush’s effort to restore the rule of law to a tyranny that suffered under strongman rule. The Iraqis now have a chance to be the first Arab Muslim democracy. That is wonderful.

    [quote]But I don’t see Saddam suffering too much — he surely has adequate food, shelter and medical care.[/quote]

    I wouldn’t sell him any life insurance. He has a date with an Iraqi hangman. There are dogs born today who will outlive him by many years.

    [quote]In fact, I don’t see Bush and cronies suffering too much either, do you? Rather he is trying to use this human disaster to propel him into a second term and if successful, will likely wage more pre-emptive wars. [/quote]

    I think we’re done invading for the meantime. The Army has its hands full with Iraq and Afghanistan and its other smaller commitments. If we invaded Iran, we wouldn’t have reserves to handle an attack by North Korea.

    We still have plenty of Air Force to bomb the hell out of anyone but bombing for effect is so Clintonesque. Bush doesn’t bomb unless there’s a follow-up on the ground, as it should be. So the ground force limits that, too.

    You might consider that invading Iraq stopped a human disaster in progress. Saddam would have made Iraq one mass grave had he not been stopped. Worst of all, as the Iraqis themselves say, he stole their future. Bush gave their future back to them.

    You just might want to consider the alternative to the current state of affairs in Iraq. Could it have been more grim?

    What will keep Bush in office, besides my vote, will be his determination to preempt a Beslan-style human disaster in America.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    9 September 2004

    Re(5): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    [quote]And I will be surprised if Saddam is actually executed but we will see. [/quote]

    I’d be very surprised if Saddam is not executed. Even when we transferred him to Iraqi custody, we had to keep US guards around him to keep him from getting killed before he is executed. When you rape and torture wives and daughters in front of their husbands and brothers, it motivates a lot of family members to take revenge.

    Of course, if we decided to spare him we might just announce that we were releasing Saddam at noon the next Monday in Firdos Square. We could let the assembled Iraqis greet his newfound freedom in whatever way they saw fit. I’d pay to watch that.

    [quote]I would like the country of my birth — America — to become far less involved in trying to “fix” the world’s problems so I hope you are right on your last point. [/quote]

    That’s a fine sentiment but the world’s problems have a proclivity for flying into our skyscrapers.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    9 September 2004

    Re(6): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    Come on Chan’ad. All of the “peace” marches in DC were organized by ANSWER, which is a front group for the Workers World Party, which is a Stalinist group whose core are old Communist Party of the USA members. The WWP has perhaps a hundred or two members yet organizes marches across the US and on dozens of campuses. They have a lot of money but, unlike the other “peace” groups, will not name their patrons. They make a lot of trips to North Korea and publicly support it, calling Pyongyang, of all places, a paradise. They probably get their money from there.

    When you are led by Stalinists, you serve the Stalinist cause, which in this case is the downfall of the US. That is made plain by the banners calling for a socialist revolution in the US posted next to the Washington Monument and proudly carried in the march. One guy was carrying a sign calling for the destruction of the US.

    These are the leaders of the march, not some lunatic fringe. They are hardly against war. They are against the US.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    9 September 2004

    Re(2): Not the Joker, but the Ace

    JJ,

    Are you sure you don’t work for the UN? Think the Palestinians are going to change their leadership anytime soon? Even if they did, and if the guy tried to reach a peace accord, he’d be dead inside a day. Settlements, maybe, but that’s not the subject. It’s obvious you are anti-american; it’s your right.
    I’m not sure what you want from the US. Three different presidents have made attemps, some of them serious, to reach a peace agreement over the years. Apparently not good enough for you because you use it as an excuse to justify why people in Bahrain can’t focus on reforms. Got a bridge you want to sell me? You really want me to believe that the driving force in their lives is concern for Palestinians when everyone in the world knows how they are treated by their own, say in Lebanon for instance. Just doesn’t wash as an excuse. Now if you tell me the protests were against the mighty satan; then I guess I would buy that, because apparently it’s more important to fight the mother of all evil instead of everybody getting on the bandwagon and finding a real solution. But, hey, double talk seems to be a universal failing.

  • anonymous
    9 September 2004

    Re(7): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

  • anonymous
    9 September 2004

    Re(6): It’s a screwed up world

    Anon,

    Yet the 20% Arab minority won’t migrate to other Arab countries where no such apartheid is practiced.

    Apparently, living with apartheid in Israel sure beats living elsewhere in the mid-east.

    I’m not condoning Isreal’s policies by any means. I’m just making an observation.

    -Aliandra

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    10 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    What a sensible post. BT, I take back half the things I said about you. Isn’t that generous of me?

    It’s hard to call Christians anti-homosexual when such a large contingent of Catholic priests are homosexual. The Catholic seminaries are accused of fostering a homosexual climate.

    Nobody took much notice of Muslims in America before Sep 11. About the only notice we took was of the Black Muslims who cleaned drug dealers out of the ghettoes. The only anti-Islamic sentiment I heard in the last thirty years before 2001 was when I ordered a Koran at a local bookstore. The big haired Baptist woman who took my order scolded me a little when I picked it up, telling me, “You better git yerself a Bible!”

    Steve

  • anonymous
    10 September 2004

    Re(6): Not the Joker, but the Ace

    Granted, the Palestinians don’t have a lot of fans in the US, but a lot more Americans are getting fed up with the pro-Israel lobby. I do hear more complaints about how it’s screwing up our relations with the mid-east. The insane settlement building is getting harder and harder for that lobby to defend. The only leverage we have over Israel is their allowance. The money flow must be cut off until those settlements are ripped down.

    Unfortunately, I don’t think such a serious turn of action will be taken with this American leadership nor, if Kerry gets in, the next one.

    -Aliandra

  • anonymous
    10 September 2004

    Re(7): Not the Joker, but the Ace

    PM,

    Thanx for clearing that up. I didn’t understand why the Arab citizen was saying one thing and the government was doing another. I don’t live in the middle-east and, as such, am limited to only the slices of information our media provides.

    -Aliandra

  • anonymous
    10 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world – but there is hope!

    Sure, you get Friday off while I’m still here at work, turning the big rusty crank that keeps the capitalist machine going.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    10 September 2004

    Re(6): It’s a screwed up world

    Steve The American, writes:

    “There are plenty of Muslims walking around the DC area. I don’t hear anyone even comment about them or even notice them. I see women in Muslim dress just about everywhere.”

    I bet that bothers you alot. We are taking over America!

    “And really, Muslims marching against Islamic terror is hardly going to invite a negative reaction in an American town. Amazement is the more likely reaction.”

    Sorry, Steve. We will be sure to inform you when we organize our next protest. Alas, let me ask you this…

    Do Jews march when a jew commits a crime?
    Do you (I assume you’re Christian) march against IRA terror in Northern Irland?
    Did you march when Tim McVeigh blew up the Murrah Federal Building in OKC?
    Why do you hold Muslims, as a group, to a standard no other group upholds? Hypocrisy, perhaps, or is it because this simply fits into your view of Muslims and Islam as evil.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    10 September 2004

    Re(8): Not the Joker, but the Ace

    “Anger at Israel for defeating the Arabs in 4 wars?”

    You are mistaken. We see an a historic injustice. Before
    there was any war there was a plan to set up a settler-colonialist state without regards to the right of the indeginous people of Palestine. That settler-colonialist project continues today
    in the occupied territory, thanks in part to continued economic, political and military support of the US.

    ” Support for whoever can be a thorn in Israel’s side, even as it destroys those very same people and keeps them down in misery? ”

    Again, you are mistaken. We simply put things in their proper context: the profound injustice, hopelessness and despair that drive people to carry out abhorent acts.

  • anonymous
    10 September 2004

    The Last Violin

    Steve,

    My heart bleeds for you. It really does. Not only are you fighting for reformation in Islam, but you are also greasing the cogs that keep Capitalism alive. Singlehandedly. Whilst sparring with Saudi Arabia every now and then in your free time. How on earth do you handle the pressure?

    As that great philosopher and hero Ali G would state …. Respekt!

    Jasra Jedi

  • anonymous
    10 September 2004

    Re(7): It’s a screwed up world

    The reason people are interested in the views of ordinary Muslims is because virtually every terror attack is carried out in the name of Islam.

    When Britain and America launched the war on Iraq, you got the biggest public demonstrations these countries have ever seen with the message “Not in my name”. We’ve not seen that in the Muslim world – even in places like Bahrain where there’s a culture of public protest.

    I’d too would like to see these influential Jewish organisations in the West taking a stance against what the Israelis is doing in their name of the world’s Jews. Some hope.

  • anonymous
    10 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world – but there is hope!

    Well done BT! And Steve .. a glimmer of hope in the horizon! I can now have a nice and peaceful Friday knowing that all is well in the land of Mahmood’s Den ..

    JJ

  • esraa
    10 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    Well, Steve,

    I am a Muslim — so I have “sobered” up a lot 😉

    And yes, I am not a commie anymore — but I am a liberal, which you might find just as bad 🙁

    However, I see no reason that should affect us. Some of my good friends are Republicans. tee hee 😉

    Salaam,
    PM

  • esraa
    10 September 2004

    Re(7): Not the Joker, but the Ace

    I also think a big problem with the lack of American support for Palestine is in the number of parties that seem to be functioning independently of the so-called Palestinian leadership (the PA). The fact that you even have so many groups who take it upon themselves to act independently in suicide and terror attacks against Israeli civilians is a symptom of the dissatisfaction and complete lack of faith in Arafat and the PA. If the majprity of Palestinians felt that the PA could and would act in the best interests of peace and opportunity for Palestinian development, the groups like IJ, Hamas, Hezbollah, A-AMB, etc., would not have so many followers.

    What is discouraging for me is to see public opinion in the West demonstrating some rippling of understanding for the Palestinian plight and then some wack-job goes and blows up a restaurant where a bar mitzvah is being celebrated. All progress made in terms of American interest and understanding is lost in that strike of the match.

    And the settlements continue expanding and the wall continues going up. 🙁

    Salaam Alaikum,
    PM

  • esraa
    10 September 2004

    Re(4): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    “You might consider that invading Iraq stopped a human disaster in progress.”

    Actually I would say that invading Iraq CREATED a different kind of human disaster, as well as has further destabilized the ME and even the wider world.

    Salaam,
    PM

    [Modified by: peacefulmuslimah (peacefulmuslimah) on September 10, 2004 10:31 AM]

  • anonymous
    10 September 2004

    Re: The Last Violin

    Well, it’s no cakewalk, let me tell you, Jasra Jedi.

    Gotta go grease the wheel again,

    Steve

  • esraa
    10 September 2004

    Re(1): It’s a screwed up world

    Catholic seminaries may inadvertantly foster homosexuality (although I don’t agree; I think homosexuals are often drawn to the Church in hopes of “taming” their desires) — but one can hardly say that homosexuality is embraced or even tolerated by the Church. It simply is not in Church doctrine or religious texts.

    Salaam,
    PM

  • anonymous
    10 September 2004

    Re(8): Not the Joker, but the Ace

    The wall is being built by Palestinian workers who need the money to survive … irony. 🙁

    JJ

  • anonymous
    10 September 2004

    Re(8): Not the Joker, but the Ace

    Think you’re right about the bar mitzvah thing, and then after 9/11 Americans can then put themselves in Israel’s place, and everything becomes blurred-Iraq, Russia etc. Not the way it should be, but as Steve says, Americans just know that’s the way it is in the ME.

    It seems unbelievable that the situation can’t be resolved, but when you get down to realities on the ground with the different groups as you say, I don’t know what the answer is. I do think America gets it’s chops busted more than it should because I don’t see anyone even trying.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    10 September 2004

    Re(7): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    [quote]Jasra: its also long past time that America stops giving short term solutions that generate other long term problems. (e.g. support islamic fundamentalism in order to get the afghanis to fight the then enemy of the state – the godless russians). [/quote]

    Hmmm. Was that America doing that all by its lonesome? It seems like Saudi Arabia pumped a few billions into the Afghan resistance. Pakistan contributed quite a few bodies. So did many of the Muslim Arab states, all of whom welcomed American support of the mujahideen.

    Yet, in typical Arab denial, America alone is to blame, eh, Jasra?

    I don’t recall any predictions of disaster from the Middle East when all this was in progress. I might also point out that were it not for a couple people, Bin Laden and Zawahiri, this fundamentalist catastrophe would have never come to a head and remained a diffuse local issue.

    [quote]as for america being the atm machine? hmm. america does not pay for these wars alone, my dear. look at how much money actually goes from the ME to America on defense contracts alone. Let alone Halliburton, etc. [/quote]

    That’s certainly not true of the war in Iraq. Saddam used mostly Soviet junk with some good European stuff.

    [quote]someone was talking earlier about the UN. HAs the US paid its dues? also – you might want to take a look at Kyoto and some of the trade rounds negotiatons. And take a look at the US position on all of these things. [/quote]

    Why does the UN assign America dues amounting to a quarter of the UN’s budget? Why does it not count the billions America contributes to UN operations against this debt of a few hundred millions? The fact is that we are being overcharged by the greedy Third World kleptocrats of the UN.

    As for Kyoto, it’s a foolish treaty based on junk science. We should no more support this lunacy than we should support a trillion dollar program to sand off the Earth’s corners should the loony left of the world decided the world was square.

    [quote]You will realize that when the rubber hits the road, the difference between what we all hear publicly about US ideology – does not correspond between the positions that the US government takes.

    You may wish to examine the roots of why the global community questions America’s double standards – or more politely – short term foriegn policy vision.

    perhaps then you will realize that far from being America’s proble solver, America actualyl does a great job in compounding some of these problems .. [/quote]

    The world should thank America every day for improving their lives in so many ways. We can start with this Internet we write on, which originated in the US and was furiously developed into what it is today for the benefit of the world.

    What do you think your life would be like, Jasra, if American geologists had not discovered oil in your neighborhood, developed the oil fields, and delivered the profits to you? And how about that American air conditioning? Bet that’s a life saver in Bahrain, huh? And those mass-produced cars that whisk you from one air-conditioned building to another. Wasn’t that American idea of mass production a fine thing?

    The world goes less hungry because America invents new strains of crops that are more productive in a worldwide green revolution that has produced super rice, among other innovations. The world is healthier with American medicine and medical care. Do you known anyone with polio, Jasra? Why not? Could it be that American cure? How about smallpox? Eradicated from the Earth.

    These are all long term solutions to the world’s problems done by the USA. They are far from being the only ones. We’re still waiting for all those thank you notes to arrive from the world.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    10 September 2004

    Re(7): Not the Joker, but the Ace

    “”Please inform us. Inquiring minds want to know.”

    Anger at Israel for defeating the Arabs in 4 wars? Support for whoever can be a thorn in Israel’s side, even as it destroys those very same people and keeps them down in misery?

  • anonymous
    10 September 2004

    Re(7): Not the Joker, but the Ace

    JJ,

    PM cleared this up for me in a later post. I just didn’t understand the dichotomy.

    Aliandra

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    10 September 2004

    Re(5): It’s a screwed up world

    There are plenty of Muslims walking around the DC area. I don’t hear anyone even comment about them or even notice them. I see women in Muslim dress just about everywhere.

    And really, Muslims marching against Islamic terror is hardly going to invite a negative reaction in an American town. Amazement is the more likely reaction.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    11 September 2004

    Re(8): It’s a screwed up world

    “The reason people are interested in the views of ordinary Muslims is because virtually every terror attack is carried out in the name of Islam.

    When Britain and America launched the war on Iraq, you got the biggest public demonstrations these countries have ever seen with the message “Not in my name”. We’ve not seen that in the Muslim world – even in places like Bahrain where there’s a culture of public protest. ”

    The difference is that the war in Iraq was indeed launched by their elected government, which presumably was acting in their name. Al-Qaeda was never elected by anyone and does not represent Islam or Muslims.

    “I’d too would like to see these influential Jewish organisations in the West taking a stance against what the Israelis is doing in their name of the world’s Jews. Some hope.”

    I. F. Stone, an American Jewish journalist, once observed in an
    article in August 1967 that:

    Israel is creating a kind of moral schizophrenia in world
    Jewry. In the outside world the welfare of Jewry depends on the
    maintenance of secular, non-racial, pluralistic societies.
    In Israel, Jewry finds itself defending a society in which mixed
    marriages cannot be legalized, in which the ideal is racial and
    exclusivist. Jews might fight elsewhere for their very security
    and existence — against principles and practices they find
    themselves defending in Israel.

  • anonymous
    11 September 2004

    Re(9): It’s a screwed up world

    Al Qaeda carries out atrocity after atrocity in the name of Islam. Keeping silent sends a message of indifference.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    11 September 2004

    Re(7): It’s a screwed up world

    [quote]”There are plenty of Muslims walking around the DC area. I don’t hear anyone even comment about them or even notice them. I see women in Muslim dress just about everywhere.”

    I bet that bothers you alot. We are taking over America! [/quote]

    That’s a false assumption, one of many I’m sure. We are a tolerant society. My point is that Muslims are free to walk anywhere in America without fear.

    However, to take up your point, many Muslims do openly declare their intention to take over America through immigration. It’s hardly a fearsome boast because MTV is more powerful than the mullah’s sermon. The lure of personal freedom is stronger than any argument to give them up.

    [quote] Alas, let me ask you this…
    Do Jews march when a jew commits a crime? [/quote]

    Jews do not fly suicide missions into our skyscrapers to establish a world-wide Jewish empire, as Muslims do. Jews do not preach the destruction of America in their synogogues, as Muslims do in their mosques. Jews do not organize Jewish charities to funnel money to fund terror against the West, as Muslims do. Jews do not openly proclaim it the duty of every Jew to make war on America, as Muslims do. There are no international Jewish terrorist organizations plotting to kill Americans.

    Do you see the difference?

    [quote]Do you (I assume you’re Christian) march against IRA terror in Northern Irland? [/quote]

    The IRA does not make war on America, as Al Qaeda and radical Islam does. The Catholic Church does not sanction IRA terrorism, as the Muslim clerics sanction jihad. There is no American support for IRA terror, as Muslims support terror against America. That said, I am against IRA terrorism. Are you against Islamic terror?

    [quote]Did you march when Tim McVeigh blew up the Murrah Federal Building in OKC?[/quote]

    Timothy McVeigh does not represent any group or philosophy, only his own nihilistic hate. He is not part of any organized group. Nobody supports McVeigh. Everyone is against him. He funded his own terror.

    By contrast, the Muslim terrorists represent the Wahhabi death cult and are part of a worldwide Muslim assault on the West to promote their evil religious sect. They are widely supported in the Muslim world. They are lavishly funded by Saudi Arabia, among others. These same Muslim terrorists promise to do more evil and claim the right, THE RIGHT, to kill two million American children.

    Do you understand that difference?

    [quote]Why do you hold Muslims, as a group, to a standard no other group upholds? Hypocrisy, perhaps, or is it because this simply fits into your view of Muslims and Islam as evil.[/quote]

    If the Catholic Pope were ever to proclaim from his balcony in the Vatican that it is the duty of every Catholic to kill Muslims, that it was permissible to steal their stuff, and that Muslim women were given to us by God to serve as our concubines, as the Muslims preach, then I would oppose the Pope.

    If Chinese flew suicide jets into the John Hancock Building in San Francisco to establish a worldwide Buddhist empire, I would oppose the Chinese.

    If the Canadians declared they had the right to kill every American taxpayer and two million children, as Bin Laden did, to establish a Maple Leaf and Moose empire here, I would oppose them.

    It is indisputable that a substantial number of Muslims are evil. Certainly, the Wahhabis who make war on the world without any mercy to innocent men, women, nor children are evil. Those who support and fund them are evil. The millions of Muslims who celebrate the terror of Islamic fundamentalists are evil.

    The bulk of the Muslim world appears indifferent to the terror done in their name. The only leading Muslim cleric I have read who has unambiguously condemned Islamic terror was from Italy. That’s it. It appears that the Muslim world passively endorses this terror to their shame. When the Muslim world makes peace with the rest of the world, accepts other faiths, sheds its intolerance, and cooperates in good faith with the world, then my opinion of it will rise. Until that day, Islam appears to me as an immoral and murderous religion that seeks to further itself through depraved violence.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    11 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    Well, PM, being a liberal is better than being a commie. Liberals will only impoverish you. Commies kill you. So you have taken steps in the right direction. Now you just need to make more Republican friends and make more money to make that last step.

    So there’s hope for you, PM, lots of hope.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    11 September 2004

    Re: The Last Violin

    I read an article about Ali G and see there is a DVD out about his show. Is he worth watching?

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    11 September 2004

    Re(2): Like hitting a cow’s arse with a banjo

    PM,

    We supported both Iraq and Iran against each other. When Iran got the advantage, we gave satellite imagery to Iraq. When Iraq got ahead, we did the same for Iran. We played two enemies off against each other. If they are stupid enough to fight each other, we were happy to help both of them pummel each other.

    America never helped Osama. We funded the Afghan resistance through Pakistan. That support was delivered through the ISI, Pakistan’s intelligence service and implemented through the Taliban, created by Pakistan in its madrassas. Pakistan intended to make Afghanistan a buffer state for reasons of national interest.

    Bin Laden had his own money, billions of it from Saudi Arabia, and his own men, mostly from Saudi Arabia, and his own Wahhabi agenda, also from Saudi Arabia. He received no American support.

    The Pakistanis were happy to have Bin Laden, as long as he extended their effort. It wasn’t until after the Soviets retreated that Bin Laden was able to buy the Taliban and Afghanistan. They sold out cheap. There weren’t any other bidders. America ended its support when the Soviets left.

    Bin Laden did not take over Afghanistan with American support but rather with American neglect.

    The war against Wahhabi terror did not arise because of America, but rather because of Saudi Arabia. It is Saudi Arabia’s support of the murderous and evil Wahhabi cult of death that fomented this war against the world. Put the blame where it belongs. Were it not for Saudi Arabia, there would be no campaign of Islamic terror around the world.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    11 September 2004

    Re(6): It’s a screwed up world

    Jasra,

    That’s an obnoxious law, to be certain. Do you think it would improve if Palestinian law was imposed on Israel with its full panoply of individual rights? Does your indignation at exclusion of rights due to religion extend to Saudi Arabia, where the rights of non-Muslims are sparse indeed? What percentage of Saudi land are Jews allowed to buy or rent?

    Those infringements of liberty in Israel look bad when compared to America but positively advanced when compared to the Arab Muslim world. A principled position would apply the same standard to both Muslim and Jewish states and single out the most egregious transgressor first.

    That said, you touch on a profound flaw in Israel as a democracy. There is an irreconcible conflict between a democracy and a state devoted to a single religion. A democracy must be open and extend its rights to all or it ceases to be a democracy. However, if it is open, it is inevitable that populations of other religions will take root and flourish. If so, it loses its peculiar religious identity. If it clings to its religious identity, it must exclude those of other religions and lose its democracy.

    I don’t see how Israel can survive in the long term as a Jewish democracy. It must, in the long term, become a largely Arab democracy or a Jewish oligarchy. In either case, it descends from there into tyranny.

    If the Palestinians truly wanted to destroy Israel they should give up their resistance and join it. They can do far more damage from within than from without. If they became peaceful subjects of Israel and consolidated their position economically, they could lobby for citizenship with an irresistable argument. There would be no American support for an Israeli position against citizenship for a peaceful and hardworking minority. Once the Palestinians gained the vote, they could vote in any policy they pleased. Israel would become Palestine soon enough.

    The current fruitless fighting merely sharpens the division between Palestinian and Israeli. The best the Palestinians can hope for with this strategy of violence is to bleed Israel with little hope of victory. It also chews up the Palestinians. That apparently suits the Palestinians patrons in Saudi Arabia and Iran just fine. They are very happy to play the Palestinians and Israelis off against each other.

    Steve

  • kategirl
    11 September 2004

    Re(3): Like hitting a cow’s arse with a banjo

    Steve, I’m just wondering… is there anything about US foreign policy that you disagree with?

    The CIA went to Saudi and got some Wahhabi mullahs who would issue fatwas saying that fighting against the Russians is a legitimiate “jihad”. They then took these mullahs on a whirlwind tour of the Muslim world to market this new jihad to young Muslim men and would-be terrorists. The CIA even cut a deal with the Egyptian government to release several prisoned Muslim Brotherhood members from jail so that they could go and fight for the US in Afghanistan.

    Really, I can’t even begin to explain the impact that the Afghanistan war had on society and the interpretation of Islam throughout the Muslim world.

    My point isn’t to try and remove the blame from the Muslims. But merely to point out that the mistakes of American shortsighted opportunism could have been avoided.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    11 September 2004

    Re(4): Like hitting a cow’s arse with a banjo

    It’s a CIA conspiracy, Chan’ad? Hmmm. I never heard that before. Did the CIA need to prompt the crazed Saudi clerics to issue fatwas against atheist Russians taking over Muslim Afghanistan? You mean the Saudis never thought of that.

    Please, Chan’ad. Enough with the crazy CIA conspiracies. According to former CIA agents here in America, the CIA has a hands off policy with regard to Saudi Arabia. They’re forbidden to spy in SA. Forbidden to keep files on Saudi leaders. They have to use indirect info to even gather basic info on Saudi Arabia. For example, to determine the Saudi birthrate, they don’t snoop around SA but discover how many Pampers are imported there.

    And really, the Saudis did not turn the tide of the war in Afghanistan. The Afghans did the real fighting and dying for their country. The effete and lazy Saudis no more wanted to do real soldiering than they wanted to do menial labor back home. They were mostly gofers, driving trucks around, a skill in short supply among poor Afghans. Then they collected their “I Fought Jihad In Afghanistan” t-shirts and went home to brag.

    As for bad US foreign policy, I’d say we have not taken a hard enough line with North Korea in the past. We have not made a good effort to market the American line in the Middle East, as we did in the Warsaw Pact. We should be playing from our strength in communication, with American satellites beaming radio and TV programs down to the Middle East. We also need to train more Arabic speakers and get them out in them Middle East to get a better feel for the culture.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    12 September 2004

    Re(8): It’s a screwed up world

    Steve, the unAmerican writes:

    �We are a tolerant society.�

    Yes, we are. But, you are an exception — a paranoid, hatefilled moron.

    “However, to take up your point, many Muslims do openly declare their intention to take over America through immigration.�

    Can you cite a single one or those “many Muslims� who openly declare such intentions. Your imaginations are running wild; get some professional help before it is too late.

    “There is no American support for IRA terror, as Muslims support terror against America.�

    You are as ignorant as always.

    �By contrast, the Muslim terrorists represent the Wahhabi death cult and are part of a worldwide Muslim assault on the West to promote their evil religious sect. They are widely supported in the Muslim world. They are lavishly funded by Saudi Arabia, among others.Do you understand that difference?�

    You are – as always – clueless: Wahabis do not represent Islam or the 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide. Saudi Arabia does not equal the Muslim world.

    �It is indisputable that a substantial number of Muslims are evil.�

    And it is indisputable that you are a sick puppy. What is truly evil is your wholesale demonization of Islam/Muslism because of the actions of a few.

    “When the Muslim world makes peace with the rest of the world, accepts other faiths, sheds its intolerance, and cooperates in good faith with the world, then my opinion of it will rise.�

    I hate to break this to you, but no one gives a damn about the “opinion� of bigots like you.

    “Until that day, Islam appears to me as an immoral and murderous religion that seeks to further itself through depraved violence.�

    Seek some professional help – before you act on your hate filled thoughts. You are no different than those hate-filled Wahhabi preachers you find most loathsom.

    You are a pathetic moron. I shall ignore your bigotted tirades from now on and invite others to do the same.

  • salima44
    12 September 2004

    Re(9): It’s a screwed up world

    [quote] There is no American support for IRA terror[/quote]

    HAH!! Of the dumb ass dipshity comments I have seen you make this one deserves a special place in the TWITBTHIFD section. Try taking a trip into South Boston, drop in to some of the Pubs. Belly up and have a brew or two and you will learn about support for the IRA in American, and it isn’t limited to Boston either. Don’t deal in absolutes when you don’t know jackshit about a subject. Stop flapping your gums and banging away at your keyboard flailing out inflammatory dribble that rehashes the same uneducated diatribe over and over again. You refuse to even look at the other side of the coin. So your predictable response Steve is to flail out more bullshit and demand for someone to “show,” “prove,” “convince me otherwise.” Time and time again you have been shown Steve, yet you refuse to open your eyes. You opt to hold to your narrow white bread views that don’t bring much of anything to this forum other than comic relief. That is sad.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    12 September 2004

    Re(10): It’s a screwed up world

    OK, so you found a bar in Boston where the locals like IRA terror and have overgeneralized that into American support for IRA terror. If you found a radical mosque in America where the locals support the Sep 11 attacks, would that mean America supports terror attacks on itself?

    I appreciate your outrage at demands that you back up your arguments with facts but I am not convinced by your argument nor your example that ignorance is the better course. And really, for somebody who complains about other people not considering the other side, you are hardly a good example of your argument, now are you?

    Steve

  • salima44
    12 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    Steve,

    As usual you just don’t get it. You act like a spoiled child in the school yard who doesn’t get his way. You reming me of Millhouse on the Simpsons shouting “I know you are but what am I..” There is little anyone can do have a RATIONAL conversation with you when you refuse to address your own one sided views. You said there was no American Support for the IRA. You are wrong. There was and is support for the IRA in America. That support has never been overly large or sanctioned by the governement but it was and is there. Nonetheless millions of $$$ and 1000’s of weapons have been shipped from the US (coast to coast) to the IRA for years. Again Steve don’t flap your gums if you don’t know what the bleep your talking about. Stop dealing in absolutes.You are the ignorant one who complains and levels charges on whole groups of people and subjects who you know very little about. So quick to paint the picture of “ALL” and “NONE” but never a thought that it might be “SOME” or “FEW”. Fact is Steve nothing short of the AllMighty himself (or Herself) coming down and showing you the ignorant manner that you present things would allow you to change your mind. Pretty petty of you to keep rehashing the same lines OVER and OVER again eating bandwidth just to inflame people by promoting your own twisted view of the world.

  • anonymous
    12 September 2004

    The trouble with Steve

    The above would be forgivable if Steve wasn’t so bollock numbingly boring – his posts are a lead weight on every discussion. None of them are about Bahrain and most aren’t about the region, but really concern the liberal-conservative culture war in the US, which is being largely fought out in terms of approaches to foreign policy.

    Friend, wise up or f**k off.

  • kategirl
    12 September 2004

    Re(13): It’s a screwed up world

    Steve, MEMRI does a lot of useful translations of the Arabic media that non-Arabic speakers would not have access to otherwise. My point however was that you can hardly make claims like the following just by reading MEMRI:

    there is no equivalent to the lies and prejudice plainly stated in much of the press published by the Arab states and political factions.

    MEMRI is useful, but the pieces it chooses to translate are so selective that there is no way you can get a sense of what the general mood of the Arab media is just by reading MEMRI. All you’ve been reading at MEMRI is just a tiny (and skewed) selection from the general Arab media and you have no authority upon which to make claims about the Arab media as a whole. Again Steve you have no idea what you are talking about.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    12 September 2004

    Re: The trouble with Steve

    Lots of insults but few facts.

    Yawn,

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    12 September 2004

    Re(2): It’s a screwed up world

    Eighty priests in the Boston area were found to be pedophiles and quietly reassigned. That’s toleration.

    Steve

  • salima44
    12 September 2004

    Re(3): It’s a screwed up world

    [quote]Eighty priests in the Boston area were found to be pedophiles and quietly reassigned. That’s toleration. [/quote]

    You call the cover up and reassignment of pedophiles TOLERANT?I sure hope that was meant “tounge n cheek” Steve, though I don’t get the joke. If you buy that this action was “tolerant” than you are one sick puppy who doesn’t not deserve pitty but rather one who deserves 2 behind the left ear with a couple of guys I know from East Boston. This is new low even for you Steve. Perhaps your true stripes are starting to show.

  • kategirl
    12 September 2004

    Re(5): Like hitting a cow’s arse with a banjo

    Steve,

    There’s no point to arguments like these. Please go and read some books (try titles about Afghanistan by Fred Halliday or Ahmed Rashid). Or as I suggested earlier, I highly recommend a college course. There are several universities in the DC area with excellent Poli Sci and International Relations programs. See if you can register yourself as a listener.

    And as always, you are welcome to visit us in the Muslim world. If you choose to come to Pakistan then I will be more than happy to introduce you to some people I know who fought with the Mujahideen in the Afghan-Soviet War. I’m sure they’d be glad to share their experiences with you.

    I’m sorry for sounding so condescending and patronizing, but you leave me no choice.

    [Modified by: Chan’ad (chanad) on September 12, 2004 08:21 PM]

  • anonymous
    12 September 2004

    Re(1): The Last Violin

    Ai!

    He is indeed. His grasp of issues is astonishing and deserving of respect. His attunement to the highest levels of what make the spirit ticks is also something to marvel at.

    Beats anything coming out of Hollywood ..
    😉

    JJ

  • esraa
    12 September 2004

    Re(3): It’s a screwed up world

    No — that’s is not an example of church doctrine tolerating homosexuality.

    That is an example of CTCAALA: Cover The Church’s Ass Against Legal Action.

    Salaam,
    PM

  • esraa
    12 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    I think you guys are being a little harsh on Steve. Granted, I don’t like his politics and he doesn’t like mine, but he generally is respectful in his posts and doesn’t have the potty mouth syndrome I have seen with so many internet posters.

    The other thing is that I think Steve is interested in exchange and DOES learn from this process. Is he ever going to agree with me on all political or religious issues? NO.

    But has he learned something about Islam, Arab politics and the reality of living in the Gulf from my posts or others on here? Yes, I think he has.

    I don’t like the generalizations either. But I have found that when I point them out and make people aware that they are doing that, they usually clarify that they do NOT mean to generalize about all Arabs or all Muslims.

    If nothing else is accomplished here, at least let there be some communication between Muslims and non-Muslims, between Arabs and Westerners, that helps to dissolve those stereotypes and generalizations.

    Salaam Alikum,
    PM

  • salima44
    12 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    PM

    I respect your views and thoughts regarding Steve. I apologize if my potty mouth has offended you. The last vestige of respect I had for Steve is now on life support after his assertion that covering up and reassigning pedophile Priests was being tolerant. Perhaps I am too close to the situation living in the hot zone of Massachusetts for Pedophile Priests and having friends who are victims. Notice I said “WHO are” and not WHO WHERE” as this criminal action leaves wounds that continue to inflict pain for decades to come.

    At this point I am leaning that Steve is a Troll. Someone who just tries to inflame a given situation for his own sense of personal satisfaction. Either that or the void in his skull where his brain should sit has endemic build up of plaque that is impeding the normal firing of the synapses.

    Time after time Steve has rehashed the same points and assertions with his BLANKET generalizations. He may back off of for while but he always resorts back to the absolute generalizations that all Arabs and Muslims desire to destroy the West, the Saudi’s are “EVIL”, America is God’s gift to the world etc etc etc. All coming from a guy who has never been to the region. I don’t expect to agree with ANYONE all the time nor have all the answers. I do think we should all respect one another. Steve has failed in my eyes to show respect. You can disagree and still be respectful.

    We live in a time where the actions of a few are defining many. This a dangerous coil but one set in reality. Steve has it in his mind that since 15 of the highjackers on 9-11 came from Saudi Arabia ergo all Saudis are against American and since the remaining highjackers where Muslim then all Muslims hate America. Since Steve first surfed himself to this board many have given him repeated detailed responses to his questions. A wealth of knowledge from people in the know on the region. He chews on it for bit.. Says it is interesting… but sees nothing that should make him change his mind and the continues to spew his diatribes. Thus the cycle continues.

  • esraa
    13 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    Dear brother,

    I was not referring to your potty mouth or anyone on this forum. Actually, I find the level of discourse to be generally very engaging and fruitful. I was referring to some other forums that spiral into nastiness and lose all reason for existing.

    As for Steve, I can’t fault your opinion and you have been here longer than I. It’s just that I do think there is something to be learned here and I think Steve is capable of learning from us, as we are from him. Even if it is only what some of the most extreme neo-cons think, that is worth knowing, in my opinion.

    Thanks for your thoughtful post. You make a lot of good poiints.

    Salaam Alaikum,
    PM

  • anonymous
    13 September 2004

    Re(3): Cold facts

    Those arrogant Americans you keep
    hearing about are the best reason I
    can think of why you are not speaking German or Russian right now. That’s a fact.

  • anonymous
    13 September 2004

    Re(3): Like hitting a cow’s arse with a banjo

    you got to see a doctor. ure scizophrenic!

  • anonymous
    13 September 2004

    Re(1): It’s a screwed up world

    Jihad is only promoted only in lands where there is opression. Like Palestinians being opressed by their Israeli occupiers, like chechnyans being opressed by their Russian occupiers, Like Iraqis being opressed by their American Occupiers.

    Jihad does not mean “Holy War”, its meaning is
    “struggle”.

    Holy war was first introduced by the crusaders when they mercilessly masacred hundreds and thousands of Jews and Muslims.

    What happened in Beslan cannot be confirmed. But whatever it was it was truly horrific and my condolences go to the families of the victims.

    Mullahs promote jihad in muslim countries that are being opressed.

    But your neocons in America have declared a war on the entire human race, like one of your presidents said before attacking the phillipines.”We are going to civilize and Christianize them!”

    i suggest you read the book by Pat Buchannan:

    “Where the Right went Wrong”

  • anonymous
    13 September 2004

    Re(4): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    youre government has not stopped invasion. Its just taken a short break and looking for excuses to get into Syria and Iran. Well the Bush government has to play its role
    in fullfilling Israel’s prophecy (Euprates to Nile), theyve got Euphrates(Iraq) its just some more time before they get all of it, through America’s hands offcourse, the jews are not going to dirty their hands, are they?

    Pat Buchannan describes how the neo cons wnet in to Iraq and how suprisingly they are so close to the Likud, many of them being jewish.

  • anonymous
    13 September 2004

    Re(2): It’s a screwed up world

    i think Pat Buchanan should write a new book on Steve.
    “Where Steve went Wrong”, coz hes definetely a right wing extremist.

    Where did steve go wrong?

    id say right about everywhere and in everything.

    Poor fellow watches a lot of FOX news
    The White American Channel.

  • anonymous
    13 September 2004

    Re: how to become a cleric in 13 easy steps

    this is appalling! Nobody has the right to write about any religion in this manner. Islam teaches us not to disrepect and make fun of other religions. Mahmood Al-Yousif, i hope you are a muslim, and i think you should think about what you have written, lest you should regret later, on the day of Judgement. Well is you dont believe in it, then i cant help you.

    i pity you, that you have been so thoroughly brain washed by western ideas. you are saying what they want you to say.

    No matter how much discrimination Islam and Muslims face, in the end its Our victory. We know that, the Christian s know it, the jews know it but still they go further astray. the chritians and the jews know that in their books, Mohammed (P.b.u.h0) is mentioned. Jesus himself mentioned him, telling his people to follow him when he comes.

  • anonymous
    13 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    i suggest you see Farenheit 911, see how your republicans and neocons have brought misery not only ot America, but to the entire world, specifically the Muslim World.

  • anonymous
    13 September 2004

    Re(1): It’s a screwed up world

    “equalled in horror the current Muslim atrocities”

    can you name any my ill informed friend?!

    Well the christians havent stopped their crusades. Your president bush (bonehead) is leading the latest one. hes already killed roughly 30-40000 Iraqis and an equal number of
    Afghanis, hes now goig to annhilate Syria and very soon Iran. Pakistan is also on the list.

  • anonymous
    13 September 2004

    Re(1): how to become a cleric in 13 easy steps

    Bud

    Do yourself a favor and open your mind, pull
    yourself out of the 7th century mindset, stop blaming the rest of the world for your problems and surf yourself over to http://www.freemuslim.org.

    What is appalling is how these very clerics have abused Islam for their own ideals and sucked you into their fold.

  • anonymous
    13 September 2004

    Re(3): It’s a screwed up world

    Steve, do you follow any religion?

    if you do, please mention it and lets have a talk on Comparitive religion. lets see whose religion makes more sense. let the people decide. whoever wins will accept the fact that that religion is the true religion of God and will stop speaking against it, if he cant accept it.

    im sure ill win. best of luck. if your a Christian then youll neeed the help of all of Chritiandom and more. Maybe youll need to fabricate and change the Bible once more and come out with the a new version called “Steve’s Version”.

    Ready to accept it

    Im a Muslim, by God’s Grace. and am ready to challenge you to a one on one debate on Comparitive Religion.

    Please mention your true religion.

  • anonymous
    13 September 2004

    Open challenge for a one on one debate on Comparitive Religion

    this is a fair an open challenge to anyone.

    I as a Muslim stand for Islam, whosover wills can come forward and deny that Islam is not the true religion of God and can present his religion as being the true religion.

    Challenge specially goes to STEVE.
    i hope hes got the guts for it.

  • anonymous
    13 September 2004

    Re: Open challenge for a one on one debate on Comparitive Religion

    I don’t claim Catholicism as the one true religion, mostly because I don’t believe most of it either. So you’re barking up the wrong tree if you want me to be a bigger religious bigot than you and pit Catholicism against Islam.

    However, I wouldn’t want to disappoint you so I’d behappy to hear why you would think Islam is more authentic than the Aztec religion, for example. They received a lot of messages from their gods. They had more gods, too: Huitzilopochtli the “hummingbird wizard,” the native and chief god of the Tenochca; Huitzilopochtli was the war and sun god; Tezcatlipoca the “Smoking Mirror,” chief god of the Aztecs in general. Those are the main gods though there were plenty of lesser gods, too. Why should we accept the Islamic Allah as a more authentic divinity than Aztec Huitzilopochtli?

    Curious,

    Steve

  • anonymous
    13 September 2004

    Re(4): It’s a screwed up world

    Exactly.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    13 September 2004

    Re(4): It’s a screwed up world

    Actually, I said that the quiet reassignment of eighty pedophile priests is toleration, ie toleration of homosexuality in general by the Catholic hierarchy in Boston and toleration of sex crimes by priests specifically. It is an example, and not an isolated example, of the moral corruption of the American Catholic church. When you facilitate such crimes, naturally you encourage more of the same.

    Had such a crime been committed by an Air Force officer officer, he would have been sentenced to hard time in Leavenworth. That would have stopped repeat offenses. The bishops and cardinals should have taken a hard line from the beginning. They tolerated the crime in hopes of sweeping this scandal under the rug. What inevitably happenned is that they accumulated too many crimes to fit under the rug.

    Your reaction to my comment is quite absurd. You really need to think before you post such nonsense. It appears thatyou are so full of hate that you are willfully distorting my posts to make it appear as though I support pedophilia. That’s a new low, even for you.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    13 September 2004

    Re(1): how to become a cleric in 13 easy steps

    I’d say this psycho is at stage 11 of 13 – congrats you’re almost there.

  • anonymous
    13 September 2004

    Re(1): It’s a screwed up world

    F9/11 is a propaganda piece that doesn’t convince any intelligent person of anything. Only the feeble-minded are convinced by such fallaciously reasoned rhetoric. I recommend that you abandon such rhetoric as the foundation for your positions and embrace reason.

    Steve

  • esraa
    13 September 2004

    Re(3): It’s a screwed up world

    Brother/Sister (?)

    Don’t take this response as support for Bush or the neo-cons, but I find your admiration for Pat Buchanan interesting. Perhaps you don’t realize what a right-wing extremist he really is? In fact, he would be prefect on FoxNews 😉

    Salaam Alikum,
    PM

  • esraa
    13 September 2004

    Re(1): how to become a cleric in 13 easy steps

    Chill out fellow! Mahmoud has every right to write about whatever he pleases — as do the rest of us.

    And btw, he is not writing about Islam — but rather the self-promoting so-called clerics who have led so many of our brothers and sisters astray in my opinion.

    But if you want to devote your life to following the guys in turbans, help yourself.

    And Allah knows best 🙂

    Salaam Alaikum,
    PM

  • kategirl
    13 September 2004

    Re: Open challenge for a one on one debate on Comparitive Religion

    On this count I’m 100% behind Steve.

    Your assumption that a religion can be “proven” to be true is naive at best. I’m sure you believe in Islam with all the conviction in the world, and that is great. But do you think you will be a better person, or have more “guts” if you can “prove” it to someone else?

    If you want to prove that Islam is a good faith then let’s stop calling each other names and challenging each other, and instead let’s try being kind and helpful to our non-Muslim brothers. Convince them that Islam is true not through mere words and rhetoric, but by your actions. Osama bin Laden claims that Islam is the true religion, but people have only digust for him and his religion. On the other hand Mother Teresa didn’t even have to tell anyone about what she believed in, but everyone knows that there must be some Light in whatever faith she held.

    Long live the Aztec God Techolzillogupchek

    With peace and love from your Muslim brother,
    Chan’ad

  • anonymous
    13 September 2004

    Re(2): It’s a screwed up world

    Why no jihad when Saddam was oppressing the Iraqis? Why no jihad when your own governments oppress you? Why no jihad when the government of Syria kills 20,000 people in the town of Hama in the 1980s? Where is the jihad when the janjaweed are killing thousands of black Muslims in Sudan?

    Is it who’s doing the oppressing that makes the difference? Arab/Muslim oppressing Arab/Muslim – ok. Non-Arab/Non-Muslim oppressing Arabs/Muslims – unacceptable.

  • mohd
    13 September 2004

    Re(1): how to become a cleric in 13 easy steps

    Rafiq!

    No one’s making fun of anyone’s religion. No one mocked God, nor can anyone do so.

    In fact, by publishing the 13 step program (coming to a Theater of Holy War near you), has Mahmood not emulated the prophet Jesus (pbuh), who constantly embarrased the Pharisees and religious hypocrites of his day? And did he not do this because, acting in the name of the Holy God, they were an embarrasment to Him, on account of their greed and the burdens they placed upon His people?

    This is why we encourage the people to acquire wisdom, and to acquire knowledge. So that the real Kaffir will not distract them from the peaceful nature of their faith and lead them to wasting their lives for causes that the Almighty has not sanctioned.

    These hypocrites write ‘false checks’ with their mouths. Why do they mock God by misleading His people into thinking that they speak for God and that God will cash those checks He never authorized?

    I pity those who never come to the realization that God speaks for Himself, and instead listen to the fools that dare to interrupt His silence.

    As’salaam U’ Alaikum! May peace and wisdom be not far from you!

    [Modified by: Bahraini Terp (johnc) on September 13, 2004 05:01 PM]

    [Modified by: Bahraini Terp (johnc) on September 13, 2004 05:27 PM]

  • anonymous
    13 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    Circle this day on the calender. Not only does Chan’ad AGREE with Steve on this one I AGREE with Steve as well. Good golly Miss Molly there is hope after all!

    Ciao!
    Mark

  • esraa
    13 September 2004

    Re(1): Open challenge for a one on one debate on Comparitive Religion

    Thanks dear brother.

    I was puzzling over how to respond to these “challenges”…

    I have always found that the best way to guide people to Islam is to live its peace, kindness and charity every day of your life. In other words, actions speak louder than words 🙂

    Salaam Alaikum,
    PM

  • esraa
    13 September 2004

    See?

    I just love it when we all agree on something 😉

    Salaam Alaikum,
    PM

  • mohd
    13 September 2004

    Not gonna do it…

    I for one, am not gonna take the bait. I am not surprized that Steve took the bait, but I will applaud him for dealing with it rather, hmmm, diplomatically.

    However, I will start taking bets that our new friend here (he needs a name…) will gladly take back his Hot potato and start railing on us all. How about Ilias (after Prophet Elija, who challenged the priests of Baal to a Holy Ghost Gravy Train)?

    Well anyway, smart money is on Ilias getting all kinds of finger wagging on , which someone’s going to respond to. In other words, there will be no agreeable solution.

    Any wonder that the dogmatic Ilias singled out the dogmatic Steve?

    But hey, it’s gonna make for a good show of fireworks!

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    13 September 2004

    Re: Not gonna do it…

    Why shouldn’t I be respectful of the Unknown Muslim? He was boasting and challenging, not insulting. It’s not like he called me a pedophile like some folks I know.

    And really, weren’t you hoping I would take the bait? You were, weren’t you? You can admit it. I’ll keep your guilty secret.

    I must agree with you, BT, that the Unknown Muslim seems like an intemperate type who is sure to return with a vengeance. I may have to introduce him to Tlalac, the Aztec god of rain.

    Bring It On, Baby,

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    13 September 2004

    Re: See?

    PM,

    Me, too. That’s the good news. The bad news is that agreeing with Steve means that you are all becoming rigid and dogmatic like that annoying Steve.

    Bummer, huh?

    Steve

    [Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on September 13, 2004 09:27 PM]

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    13 September 2004

    Re(4): It’s a screwed up world

    I don’t really have any religion. All those long years in parochial school did not convince me there is a God though I found Catholic values to be sound on their own. Generally, I approve of religion in moderation, except for the ones that want to kill me, like the Wahhabis. Religion is a good vehicle for conveying values and binding a community together.

    However, I’d be glad to spar with you, if it so please you. Let’s begin at the beginning, shall we: What is the proof of God? Or Allah, in your case.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    13 September 2004

    Re(5): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    You’ve got quite a head full of propaganda there. Pretty much everything is a Jewish plot for you guys, isn’t it?

    Sorry to disappoint you but, obnoxious as both Syria and Iran are, we have done all the invading we have budgeted for the fiscal year, no matter how many invitations we get from the people of Iran to kick out their mullahs.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    13 September 2004

    Re(2): how to become a cleric in 13 easy steps

    مرحبا

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    13 September 2004

    Re(2): It’s a screwed up world

    [quote]Holy war was first introduced by the crusaders when they mercilessly masacred hundreds and thousands of Jews and Muslims. [/quote]

    What about the jihad across North Africa by the Muslims and invasion of Spain and France? That happenned before the Crusades. If you are against the later slaughter of innocent Muslims by Christian Crusaders, are you also against the previous slaughter of innocent Christians by Muslim holy warriors?

    [quote]What happened in Beslan cannot be confirmed. But whatever it was it was truly horrific and my condolences go to the families of the victims. [/quote]

    What kind of nonsense is that? There is plenty of confirmation. The Muslim terrorists took video of themselves during the occupation of the school. There were TV cameras outside documenting the occupation. We have the surviving victims as witnesses. There is no doubt at all about what happenned and that Muslims did it.

    If the Islamists were not perpetrating this depraved violence you would not have to make these pathetic evasions.

    [quote]Mullahs promote jihad in muslim countries that are being opressed. [/quote]

    False. There are imams promoting jihad in America to Muslims who are not oppressed at all but enjoy much greater freedom and opportunity than in any Muslim country. They make videos of their sermons and sell them.

    The Hamburg cell which perpetrated the Sep 11 atrocity lived freely in Germany, a non-Muslim nation, where they went to school free and lived off German welfare.

    Reid the Muslim Shoebomber came from France, a non-Muslim country where Muslims live freely.

    Indonesia is a Muslim country ruled by Muslims yet Muslims butchered dozens in Bali. The Muslims are not oppressed in Indonesia.

    Either you don’t know what is going on in the world or you find comfort in false words that hide the truth. Which is it?

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    13 September 2004

    Re(1): how to become a cleric in 13 easy steps

    [quote] Islam teaches us not to disrepect and make fun of other religions. [/quote]

    Then why did Muslims kill 3000 Americans on Sep 11? That seems grossly disrespecful to me. Why do Muslims blow up trains in Spain? Disrespectful. And that pious Muslim Ayman Zawahiri appeared on video this week to spout quite a bit of insult.

    [quote]No matter how much discrimination Islam and Muslims face, in the end its Our victory. We know that, the Christian s know it, the jews know it but still they go further astray. the chritians and the jews know that in their books, [/quote]

    Well, I don’t know it. Quite frankly, when you compare Muslim and non-Muslim countries, it is the Muslims who discriminate against other religions. Name a Western country which outlaws the practice of Islam. Do you want me to name Muslim countries which outlaw the practice of other religions?

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    13 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    [quote] The last vestige of respect I had for Steve is now on life support after his assertion that covering up and reassigning pedophile Priests was being tolerant. Perhaps I am too close to the situation living in the hot zone of Massachusetts for Pedophile Priests and having friends who are victims. Notice I said “WHO are” and not WHO WHERE” as this criminal action leaves wounds that continue to inflict pain for decades to come. [/quote]

    I think your brain is overheating from all that hate inside you and leading you to make crazy slander. I’d be more insulted that you accuse me of support for pedophilia if I didn’t know you were such a fool.

    [quote]At this point I am leaning that Steve is a Troll. Someone who just tries to inflame a given situation for his own sense of personal satisfaction. Either that or the void in his skull where his brain should sit has endemic build up of plaque that is impeding the normal firing of the synapses. [/quote]

    Or maybe you are intolerant of other ideas.

    [quote]Time after time Steve has rehashed the same points and assertions with his BLANKET generalizations. He may back off of for while but he always resorts back to the absolute generalizations that all Arabs and Muslims desire to destroy the West, the Saudi’s are “EVIL”, America is God’s gift to the world etc etc etc.[/quote]

    Wrong again. I state my opinions strongly because they are based on facts I’ve read and also to encourage others to present rebuttals.

    You do have my position correctly in that I believe the Saudis to be evil with respect to their support of the Wahhabi death cult. The philosophy behind the Muslim terror was developed there, financed there, and projected from there. The Saudis denied their involvement in Sep 11, blocked investigation of the Saudi perpetrators, and continued funding Wahhabi Terror. They continue to promote war against the West and the whole world in their media, mosques, and education system. That makes Saudi Arabia evil.

    [quote] I do think we should all respect one another. Steve has failed in my eyes to show respect. You can disagree and still be respectful. [/quote]

    Accusing me of pedophilia is hardly respectful. It is the standard tactic of malicious sophomores who can not make their arguments based on reason.

    [quote]We live in a time where the actions of a few are defining many. This a dangerous coil but one set in reality. Steve has it in his mind that since 15 of the highjackers on 9-11 came from Saudi Arabia ergo all Saudis are against American and since the remaining highjackers where Muslim then all Muslims hate America.[/quote]

    I have presented my case against the Saudis above. If you think it is only 15 bad Saudis then you don’t know what’s going on in Saudi Arabia.

    [quote]Since Steve first surfed himself to this board many have given him repeated detailed responses to his questions. [/quote]

    Rarely true, and certainly not true with respect to you. You rarely present a detailed rebuttal. Your tactic is to demean an opposing view and shout it down. It’s a playground tactic.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    13 September 2004

    Re(2): The Last Violin

    You’re setting the bar low. I wanted to see a movie this weekend but couldn’t find anything worth watching.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    14 September 2004

    Re(1): It’s a screwed up world

    Steve,

    I don’t see anywhere that BonsaiMark called or accused you of being a pedophile.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    14 September 2004

    Re(9): It’s a screwed up world

    [quote]Steve, the unAmerican writes:

    �We are a tolerant society.�

    Yes, we are. But, you are an exception — a paranoid, hatefilled moron. [/quote]

    Hmmm. Your insulting mode of argument, ie ad hominem arguments, rebuts your claim of a superior intelligence. For somebody against hate, you ladled out quite a dollop of it here, haven’t you?

    [quote]“However, to take up your point, many Muslims do openly declare their intention to take over America through immigration.�

    Can you cite a single one or those “many Muslims� who openly declare such intentions. Your imaginations are running wild; get some professional help before it is too late. [/quote]

    Since you have not done your homework on this topic, I’d be happy to educate you.

    Saudi cleric Sheik Said Al-Qahtani lamented the Sep 11 attacks on a broadcast on Saudi government controlled Iqraa TV last March 17, complaining that they disrupted the more successful long term strategy of conquering America through immigration and conversion, “We did not occupy the U.S., with 8 million Muslims, using bombings. Had we been patient, and let time take its course, instead of the 8 million, there could have been 80 million [Muslims] and 50 years later perhaps all the US would have become Muslim…”

    Was this broadcast only in my imagination, sport? Quite clearly you are speaking from ignorance on this.

    It gets worse if you actually do some research. The first militant Muslim missionaries arrived in America in the 1920s and flatly stated, “Our plan is, we are going to conquer America.”

    Shamim A. Siddiqi detailed the reasons for the Islamic conquest of America and a detailed plan for carrying it out in his 1989 book, Methodology of Dawah Ilallah in American Perspective, published in Brooklyn and widely posted on Islamist websites. Siddiqi sees America’s problem as being ruled by laws made by Congress which deny the will of Allah. He thinks Muslims can establish “Islamic rule” in America by 2020.

    Siddiqi puts the responsibility on American Muslims to make America Muslim lest they fall short on Judgement Day: “Every Muslim living in the West will stand in the witness box in the mightiest court of Allah . . . in Akhirah [the last day] and give evidence that he fulfilled his responsibility, . . . that he left no stone unturned to bring the message of the Qur’an to every nook and corner of the country.”

    This line of thought is carried forward by Omar M. Ahmad, chairman of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), who told California Muslims in July 1998, “Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran … should be the highest authority in America and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.”

    Siraj Wahaj is a leader in the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the Islamic Society of North America, the Muslim Alliance in North America, and the Muslim Arab Youth Association. He thinks that implementation of sharia in the US is coming fast, which is to say, the overthrow of our constitutional democracy by Koranic law. Wahaj gives his view of the America of the near future:
    “I have a vision in America, Muslims owning property all over, Muslim businesses, factories, halal meat, supermarkets, all these buildings owned by Muslims. Can you see the vision, can you see the Newark International Airport and a John Kennedy Airport and LaGuardia having Muslim fleets of planes, Muslim pilots. Can you see our trucks rolling down the highways, Muslim names. Can you imagine walking down the streets of Teaneck, [New Jersey]: three Muslim high schools, five Muslim junior-high schools, fifteen public schools. Can you see the vision, can you see young women walking down the street of Newark, New Jersey, with long flowing hijab and long dresses. Can you see the vision of an area of no crime, controlled by the Muslims?”

    That’s what the crazy Muslims in America are thinking, kid, while you were daydreaming of a politically correct fantasy world.

    [quote]“There is no American support for IRA terror, as Muslims support terror against America.�

    You are as ignorant as always. [/quote]

    The Saudis indoctrinate their young in the schools and colleges that their religious duty is to make war on the West. They preach jihad against the West in their mosques where they collect money that funds Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations. They preach jihad on their media, even holding telethons to raise money for terrorists.

    For the equivalent situation to be true in America, as you seem to believe, America would be teaching elementary students in public schools that the Southern Baptist religion is the only true religion and that their duty was to make war on Muslims to establish a Southern Baptist world empire. Many seminaries would turn out Southern Baptist holy warriors who would set off for Muslim lands to blow up trains and airplanes and shoot up mosques. All churches would be Southern Baptist where the preachers would pitch fiery sermons that told their congregations that it was OK to kill Muslims, steal their stuff, and take their women as sex slaves. Your contributions to the collection plate would buy explosives for Southern Baptist suicide bombers hoping to snuff out Muslims shopping or eating pizza or riding a bus. PBS and NPR would be mostly Southern Baptist programming where the beauty of suicide bombing would be discussed by learned Baptist ministers and the necessity of religious war against the pagans urged. Jerry Lewis would hold a telethon to raise money to reward the mothers of dead Baptist bombers.

    [quote]�By contrast, the Muslim terrorists represent the Wahhabi death cult and are part of a worldwide Muslim assault on the West to promote their evil religious sect. They are widely supported in the Muslim world. They are lavishly funded by Saudi Arabia, among others.Do you understand that difference?�

    You are – as always – clueless: Wahabis do not represent Islam or the 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide. Saudi Arabia does not equal the Muslim world. [/quote]

    The Wahhabis have an outsized effect on the Muslim world because they are in charge of the holy sites and because they are stupendously wealthy. Part of the Saudi government budget is devoted to spreading the Wahhabi brand of Islam around the world, an estimated $68 billion, if not more. Where ever the Wahhabis set up shop, the terrorists follow. In every major Islamist terror attack, the terrorist cell sprang from a Wahhabi missionary effort funded by Saudi Arabia. The malicious Wahhabi influence is pervasive throughout the Muslim world and beyond.

    [quote]�It is indisputable that a substantial number of Muslims are evil.�

    And it is indisputable that you are a sick puppy. What is truly evil is your wholesale demonization of Islam/Muslism because of the actions of a few. [/quote]

    The Muslim reaction to Sep 11: “… much of the Muslim world responded with joy to the events of September 11. Upon viewing replays of the World Trade Center attack, many Egyptians described it as the happiest of moments, punctuating their glee with such phrases as “Bulls-eye” and “It’s payback time.” All over the Middle East, the reactions were much the same. Palestinians in Lebanon and the West Bank shot guns into the air in celebration. In Jordan, Palestinians expressed their glee by handing out candy. In Afghanistan and Pakistan, it was common to hear such quotes as, “Whatever destruction America is facing, as a Muslim I am happy.” ”

    These are evil people who celebrate the mass murder of thousands of Americans. There are more than a few of them. They number in the millions at least.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    14 September 2004

    Re(2): It’s a screwed up world

    Bonsaimark: “You call the cover up and reassignment of pedophiles TOLERANT?I sure hope that was meant “tounge n cheek” Steve, though I don’t get the joke. If you buy that this action was “tolerant” than [color=red]you are one sick puppy who doesn’t not deserve pitty but rather one who deserves 2 behind the left ear[/color] with a couple of guys I know from East Boston. This is new low even for you Steve. [color=red]Perhaps your true stripes are starting to show[/color]. ”

    This is really quite a venomous attack by an unhinged individual.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    14 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    Dear steve.
    i live in the ME. you should come down here once so that i can get all your misconceptions about Wahabis and Mullahs cleared. Youve got to learn to be fair minded.
    You cant simply blame all mullahs in general if some of them are promoting Jihad. you cant blindly call a man a terrorist. One man’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter, as in the case of Palestine. The israeli occupiers call them Terrorists whereas they are considered as freedom fighters by their people. you have to understand what drives a person to do acts of violence.

    This is not only to you but to all. Please be fair in your thought and please dont blindly acuse. please look at both sides of the picture.

    Peace and Blessings on all
    KC

  • anonymous
    14 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    [quote]Jews do not fly suicide missions into our skyscrapers to establish a world-wide Jewish empire, as Muslims do. Jews do not preach the destruction of America in their synogogues, as Muslims do in their mosques. Jews do not organize Jewish charities to funnel money to fund terror against the West, as Muslims do. Jews do not openly proclaim it the duty of every Jew to make war on America, as Muslims do. There are no international Jewish terrorist organizations plotting to kill Americans.[/quote]

    Steve…When 911 happened, among the top suspected groups was the Jewish Defence League. FBI new that it was totally capable of doing such a thing. Jews dont need to go to synagogues to preach destruction. they preach the destruction of the entire Gentile world through their secret protocols, not just America. they sit in your congress, your white house, your senate, your cinema studios, your media stations, your stock exchange, your business centers and your Pentagon and plan and implement the destruction of America. What is the AIPAC (Jewish Lobby)?.
    Jews have got spies all over your intelligence agency. there are jews who proclaim that their duty is to finish the gentile world. Jews control everything in America. Isreal can and is bending America any way it likes.

    in America no one dare speak against a jew, for he will be nonexistent if he does. Your media is totally controlled by Jews, who give you information that they want you to hear.

    if you want proof, i can give you proof. you still cant prove that Muslims did 911.

    if you dont have anything to support your argument i suggest that you get the f**k outta here, and stop waisting our time

    it was the jews do invented Communism, which you hate so much.

    these are some quotes from Mein Kampf:

    the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew. -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

    Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: ‘by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.’ -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf) & Myself

    People can label me Anti Semetic, but facts are facts and as i see them, Jews are not only out to detroy you but will first suck out all the blood in your body…F**King BLOODSUCKERS!

    Please visit this site, dont visit it if your a jew, which i suspect you are.
    http://www.jewwatch.com

    more material to read:
    Greg Palast- Best democracy money can buy (In this book he talks about the coruption in corporate America, what i found out is that out of all those evil bastards more than 95% are jewish)

    International Jew- Henry Ford- Classical description of a jew.

    The Holocaust Hoax!- jewwatch.com

    i can provide a complete list of how jews own your america completely and how cleanly and completely they are destroying it.

    Proud to be Anti Semetic!

    Fuad

  • mohd
    14 September 2004

    You don’t say!

    The Jewish Defense League was a top suspect of the 9/11 attacks? They went on the offensive, eh?

    Now, I’m asking myself this question, Fuad, don’t we in the ME universally accuse Jews of using their wealth and power in America to support Israel? Why would they ever think of crippling the American economy, and committing its troops to futile offesnive wars? Why do anything BUT give the US any and all advantage? Why bite the hand that feeds you?

    Oh, Adolf Hitler said those things? I didn’t know that about him! Well, if Adolf Hitler said it, it must be true! Now, correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t Adolf lose World War II?

    You’re really helping our cause here, pal. Just like the next guy, I want a strong, secure homeland for the Palestinians, and internal policies in Arab countries that actually help the Arab people. Demonizing jews may get your ignorant ass off the couch, but it won’t bring peace and stability to the region.

    By the way, if you’re a truly dedicated anti-semite, I suggest you go you shoot [b]YOURSELF[/b], as I assume you to also be a descendant of [b]SHEM[/b], son of the prophet Nooh (pbuh).

  • anonymous
    14 September 2004

    Separated at Birth

    Steve – Fuad …

    Are you twin brothers in an Indian movie separated at birth? One hates the Saudis and the Wahhabis. The other hates Israelis and the Jews.

    Great start we have to world peace.

    JJ

  • anonymous
    14 September 2004

    Pissing Contest.

    Steve and Anon,

    For the grace of God, lets NOT get into a debate on which God is more of God than the other. It does NOT matter who is right and who is wrong, what matters is that the relationship betewen God and Man stays between the two, without having another Man play judge and jury as to who is more right.

    So, please – if we are to have a debate on religions and hw they evolve .. fine. But, I really do not want to have a debate that starts on the premise of which relgion is the best.

    And, if we were to have a debate on which religion is the best, then it would follow that we would also have to have a debate on which practioners of which religion follow their faith the best .. and as a Moslem, I dont wish to get into that debate – because we would lost hands down. Just look at how many crimes are committed in the name of Islam.

    So, please .. lets exercise some judgement and wisdom here.

    JJ

  • anonymous
    14 September 2004

    Miscommunication

    I think there has been some miscommunication here. I think that when Steve said that the Boston reassignment was in fact, a toleration of the Church for pedophilia … this was misinterpreted by Bonsai Mark to mean that Steve himself supports pedophilia. And, tempers flared, and history was made. And a miscommunication was blown out of proportion.

    Like PM, I am in support of Steve. I think that 50% of his tirade is actually him trying to come to terms with what is said on this post vs. conventional wisdom in the US. I think the other 30% is him forcing us to come to terms with our own conventional wisdom and forcing us to rationalize and think through an issue. And the other 20% is light hearted humor.

    And, for what its worth, Steve did come out on the record and acknowledge that he was learning alot, and that most people around him in the US arent really interested in learning any more about this area.

    I dont see our Salafists or our Ali Salmanists coming out on this post trying to learn … so, I respect the fact that Steve is at the very least, trying.

    On that note, PM .. thanks for contributing in the manner that you have been. You are one of the few people whjo identify themselves as a Moslem first and foremost and are able to function and evolve very well in the 21st century. I hope That role has usuallly been dominated by the bearded ones, and it is nice to see the liberal Moslems speak out and speak out well without being defensive and aggressive.

    And, as always … thanks to Mahmood for setting this all up ..

    JJ

  • mohd
    14 September 2004

    Sorry to confuse you with the facts

    Tomorrow is Rosh Hashannah, the New Year in the Hebrew Calendar (a happy new year to any and all those reading of the Hebrew faith and heritage, L’Chaim)

    If 19 out of 20 executives, managers and boardmembers of American business enterprises are yehudi, then all of America will come to a standstill for the next two days. Because, without their shrewd and cunning leadership, corrupt America can do nothing besides stare at the TV.

    No one in America can speak out against jews, eh? No wonder Punch Drunk Love got all the rave reviews it did! No one’s going to criticize Adam Sandler, after all he did for Judaism. Not just one Channukah song, but 3, yes three, AND an animated movie. Maybe that’s why Seinfeld was ever such a hit.. Ever think about that, four neurotic New Yorkers running your life and mine?

    In case you didn’t notice, but Osama Bin Laden went on International Television and claimed responsibility for the attacks of Sept. 11, AND made no end of connections to Islam.

    Let me make a sidenote here. Conventional wisdom is that 9/11 was the act of Musim extremists. This goes back to the separation of Mosque and State argument in my book. As we tear through the layers of Al-Qaeda ideology, we have to understand that Bin Laden is a political animal with religious stripes. That has more to do with the Al-Saud being political animals who can no longer fool people regarding their religious credentials. If Islam were not so politicized, then we don’t have an act of Islamic terrorism, but rather geopolitical subversion. Don’t get me wrong, their fervor for Firdoos is strong and rife with religious symbolism, but make no mistake, their objectives are political, be it Al Qaeda, Taliban, the Chechens or Janjaweed. What they have done is successfully blurred the lines of politics and religion.

    But I digress. So there are jews who want to annihilate the rest of the planet so they can have it for themselves. Well, I can find just as many if not more, Christians and Muslims who would like to do the same. We all have our periodic episodes of ethnic cleansing, and hardly any of them have proven entirely successful, mind you.

    The jews invented communism. Let’s see, Marx writes Das Kapital, 50 years later, the jews are in concentration camps (no wait that didn’t happen either). But then these same Jews who LOVE their creation can’t wait to get the hell out of the USSR that Israel now has to keep creating more settlements to house jews fleeing from the former soviet republics. Oh, and they go to all the trouble of infiltrating all of America’s corporations and government entities just to kill their brainchild. Does this make them smart or stupid, I can’t decide…

    But I will say this in your defense Fuad, until today I thought a jewwatch was a clock that didn’t work on Saturdays! Thanks for the tip!

  • anonymous
    14 September 2004

    Re(5): Steve, I live in the Muslim world

    Another weak mind full of conspiracies and not much else.

    -Aliandra

  • anonymous
    14 September 2004

    Re(1): It’s a screwed up world

    Michael Moore (or less) is an entertainer with an agenda, not a researcher, or journalist, or historical expert.

    The 9/11 report written by the commission disproves much of his propaganda.

    I suggest you take whatever Moore spouts out with a truckload of salt

    -Aliandra

  • mohd
    15 September 2004

    Denial is more than just a river in Egypt

    I am posting this for the benefit of everyone who reads this blog with genuine interest and curiosity. Knuckleheads like Fuad and Ilias won’t be convinced one way or another. Ma’alesh. This is so others may not be taken by hoaxes and lies. After all, we are told in the Ten Commandments to never bear false witness, so for those who insist on furthering disinformation and deception, may their fates be on their own heads!

    The story of jews staying away from work on 9-11 is a case of myth becoming reality. The only evidence you have is that everyone on your block believes it, so it must be true.

    Your reference to Bolshevism is also dubious. Leon Trotsky and Karl Marx were jews, but that doesn’t mean a thing. Under that math, every union of Christian and Muslim results in Ba’athism. Better stay away from those pork-eaters. In any case, Trotsky fell out of favor with the Soviets anyway and spent the rest of his days in exile.

    To make the connection, you have to go out of your way that the Torah and jewish tradition, customs and politics lend itself heavily to Marxist governance. I really doubt you can effectively do that.

    On the other hand, you can make a better case for Islamic scripture tradition and politics lending itself quite heavily to indiscriminate violence. That is extremely concerning.

    Let’s call a spade a spade. Zionism is a problem. Judaism is not. Christianity is not the problem, although it has to keep its eye on its pre-millenial Armageddonist yahoos (you can correct me on the specific theologies since I haven’t really bothered to classify nut-jobs any further). Islam is not the problem, but Fatwa inspired wild-eyed fanatics are. No amount of blameshifting and posturing will do you any good. Denial is more than just a river in Egypt.

    One Jew makes a contribution to totalitarianism and suddenly the entire faith becomes sole proprietor of the WHOLE movement.

    Hundreds of muslims commit atrocities IN THE NAME OF ISLAM (Hezb’allah, Al Qaeda, Al Aqsa, etc) but Islam and its deviant adherents are beyond suspicion.

    Take responsibility for what has gone wrong. Recognize that atrocities and indecencies cannot be covered by claiming that “God told us to do it”. Oliver North may have been following orders, but he still broke the law and history will remmber him as a figure of controversy.

    (Dang it, there I go again, giving Mullah Steve Spinstani a reason to hop on his soapbox again…)

    In any case, please investigate any and all conspiracy theories before you spout them out, lest the guilt of the first liar becomes your share as well.

    The following pieces illustrate how this myth became a reality and why it is a hoax. Let’s not forget that in the United States, there are no reliable records of anyones ethnicity or religion, to be able to tell which of the victims were jewish. But independant research estimates that of the nearly 3,000 victims of the WTC attacks, one can reasonably assume that up to 500 of them were of jewish faith and/or heritage. That’s one in six. For those of you who have never set foot outside of the ME and can’t get over your obsession with religious identity, tough nuts. Additionally, you’ll have to show me that jews also knew which flights not to take on September 11. Maybe they all stayed home to celebrate the defeat of the Ottomans at Vienna.

    [url]http://slate.msn.com/id/116813

    http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=331277%5B/url%5D

  • anonymous
    15 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    And what kind of a Yiddish name is Mohammad Atta?

    Maybe you should pull down your pants when you talk – the rest of the world might hear you better.

  • esraa
    15 September 2004

    Re: Denial is more than just a river in Egypt

    Masha’Allah brother! That was beautifully put!

    Yes, something has gone wrong and if we cannot admit it, how will we repair it? Al hamdulillah I have found some brothers and sisters with a shared vision here.

    And don’t worry about Steve — I think he can learn a lot from your post 😉

    Salaam Alaikum,
    PM

  • anonymous
    15 September 2004

    Re(1): Open challenge for a one on one debate on Comparitive Religion

    <1. That "god" exists>

    Can you prove that “god” in some sort of reality does NOT exist?

  • anonymous
    15 September 2004

    Hear Hear Bahraini Terp!

    What a great post!

    Respect!

    Dumbfounded Jedi in Jasra

  • anonymous
    15 September 2004

    Re(2): Open challenge for a one on one debate on Comparitive Religion

    That’s a fallacious argument, specifically the appeal ad ignorantium, “the appeal to ignorance,” as Socrates named it. You can not prove a negative. Demanding proof of a negative to prove your argument is fallacious.

    Can you prove Martians do NOT exist? If you can’t , does that mean they do exist?

    Can you prove that the Navajo Thunderbird god does not exist? If you can’t, does that mean that it exists?

    Can you prove that the Earth does not rest in the belly of the Infinite Turtle? If you can’t, does that mean that it doesn’t?

    You’ll have to do better than that.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    15 September 2004

    Re(3): Open challenge for a one on one debate on Comparitive Religion

    Steve.

    What a silly post. We all know that the Earth lies in the belly of the Infinitely Double Humped Camel …

    JJ

  • anonymous
    15 September 2004

    Re: Open challenge for a one on one debate on Comparitive Religion

    [quote]this is a fair an open challenge to anyone.
    I as a Muslim stand for Islam, whosover wills can come forward and deny that Islam is not the true religion of God and can present his religion as being the true religion.
    [/quote]

    I don’t believe in any religion or any “god”. As you are the one claiming that an intangible entity – your god – exists, the burden of proof is actually yours. In order to convince me that your religion and god are “true”, you would need to convince me of a whole bunch of things, such as:

    1. That “god” exists
    2. That this “god” is the only god
    3. That this “god” is the god of Abraham and not of Hinduism, Odinism, Greek paganism, the Zoroastrians etc etc
    4. That this “god” really did author the Qu’ran
    5. That, given all the suffering in the world, this “god” is good rather than neutral or evil
    6. That this god wants to be worshipped (something that has always struck me as extraordinarily egotistical)
    7. That this god DESERVES to be worshipped
    8. That this disembodied god’s interest in the sexlives of human beings isn’t really as weird as it seems. I’ve never understood why it is that a bodiless, omnipotent, omniscient entity like god should be so concerned about what humans do with the bodies He supposedly gave them. Why on earth would he be?

  • anonymous
    15 September 2004

    Re: Sorry to confuse you with the facts

    As far as the holocaust is concerned, atrocities didhappen against the jews, but the number of victims was not 6,000,000. it was a few thousand. The 6,000,000 figure was just to win world sympathy.

    As of Usama Bin Laden coming on International Television. the guy in the video was not Binladen but another actor who America employs. I have the pictures and can send them to you to show you the difference. Usama bin laden claimed that he had nothing to do with the attacks, why would he do later, why not come on television immediately after the attacks and show what power hes got.

    i dont speak without proof. Jews did invent Communism, Bolshevism to be more specific.
    [quote]
    Conventional wisdom is that 9/11 was the act of Musim extremists. [/quote]

    thats a pathetic point. you cant prove it that youngsters who happened to be muslim did 911.

    Jews are 2%(not sure how much now) of the poulation and own,control or run 80% of America’s businesses.
    WTC was the center of business in New York, which has the higgest jewish population in America followed by Florida. We have to assume that hundreds if not thousands of jews worked in WTC. As they are very hardworking people we can assume that these people would be among the first to be at their offices. But what i cant seem to get into my head is that how none of them managed to wake up that morning. Reports say that around 4000 jews worked in WTC. Did all of them have a dream that WTC was going to blow up the next morning. Maybe God chose to inform them, they being the “Chosen Ones”.

    there are so many things that cannot be answered about 911. you cant provide proof (only conventional wisdom…BULLSHIT!), so lets just close the subject.

    they call us(Gentiles) “Goyim”(cows). Not all of us are infact Goyim. Steve may be, for he believes everything that his jewish controlled media feeds him with.

    Fuad

  • fekete
    15 September 2004

    God Help you as well …

    “you say that Muslims did 911, the spain bombings, etc. Can you prove it? atleast put forward what your government has shown you.”

    My dear friend ..

    Like it or not, the golden age of Islam and the Arabs is long gone. Today, we are in a miserable state of affairs – both as states and as a religion.

    So, it aint Steve alone who is living in a miserable mental state – its also a significant amount of people in this part of the world that are very good at blaming eveyone for their misfortunes except themselves.

    Its time we all woke up and smelled the gahwah.

    Jasra Jedi

  • anonymous
    15 September 2004

    God help Steve!

    Dear Steve,

    i think a lot of people have already told you this. But im giving it another try, trying to get your thinking right.

    you cant hold a religion responsible for what a few people do. Even if they say that they are representing their religion. You just cant generalise. Nobody can pick up Hitler and what he did and say that christians killed and massacred. you may say that he claimed he was an aryan and he did it because of that. No way he was till the end a christian and he was proud to be one.

    But only advice to you is that please be fair minded and please think before you post something on this Blog.

    you say that Muslims did 911, the spain bombings, etc. Can you prove it? atleast put forward what your government has shown you.

    Let us all pray to God to help this man recover from the miserable mental state he is in,his blindness and his ignorance.

    God help you steve.

    From Most of us here

  • salima44
    15 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    [quote]Like it or not, the golden age of Islam and the Arabs is long gone. Today, we are in a miserable state of affairs – both as states and as a religion. [/quote]

    Jasra, Don’t think the Golden Age of Islam and the Arab world is gone. Out of Chaos comes order.. Or so the saying goes. Stay positive. View the glass as half FULL instead of HALF empty.

  • mahmood
    15 September 2004

    Re: God help Steve!

    No it’s not from most of us, just your own opinion whoever you are. Steve has raised some very valid points that I still have to find coherent answers to the questions and assumptions he posted. Jasra Jedi, Bahraini Terp and Peaceful Muslimah have answered some, but I think we need to really look deeply at his questions. Steve to me is an intelligent man who backs up his arguments well, even though he seems to generalise somewhat sometimes, the basic thing is that he is asking the questions that need to be asked. So don’t just scoff his questions as zeolotry or extremism, rather his questions require deep thought in the very interpretation of the religion we submit to and why it has created so many terrorists. Abdulrahman Al-Rashid is corageous enough to address some of the issues and ask the required questions, we need to be brave enough to answer the questions Steve asks and hopefully in our answers we will understand our motivations, culture and religion better. The bottom line is that most if not all of the world’s terrorists now are Muslim, like it or not, and the sooner we recognise this cancer the sooner we can amputate that limb and work on fixing the body.

  • mahmood
    15 September 2004

    Re: Denial is more than just a river in Egypt

    well said Bahraini Terp!

  • mahmood
    15 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    Mark I would love to subscribe to that view, but I must here agree with JJ. Without fully recognising our faults, there is no way we would reach correction. Like JJ I am very inclined to look at the glass half-empty at the moment, until our “religious leaders” themselves denounce these acts of terrorism and come out unabashedly denouncing the atrocities committed in the name of Islam, rather that selectively classify these acts as heroic. It is also important that these very same leaders recognise that the seperation of state and religion is a requirement rather than just a nicety.

  • salima44
    15 September 2004

    Re(1): It’s a screwed up world

    All I am saying is stay positive.

  • mahmood
    15 September 2004

    Re(2): It’s a screwed up world

    I completely appreciate that Mark, I really do, but we first need to address our shortcomings as muslims, arabs to be able to stay positive. There are so many negatives at the moment in our culture, politics and yes even our interpretation of religion that it boggles the mind. At this very moment (sorry just got off the flight from Amsterdam and am tired) I would rather be pessimistic as it seems more “positive” if you know what I mean.

  • anonymous
    15 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    I have to agree when you say the top it’s a screwed up world. I hope that peace one day reigns over the earth and there won’t be conflicts. I myself, a Christian can only pray that everyone will someday be at peace. The first step is to communicate to each other and learn about each other all around the world in school and outside of school.

  • anonymous
    15 September 2004

    Re(1): Sorry to confuse you with the facts

    You know that is an interesting concept that it was an actor playing OBL on the tapes. I haven’t heard that one. Perhaps all the audio tapes calling for jihad and declaring war on the West are also false. So the questions is, if you know these things are false, why are the rest of the drones running around committing jihad in the name of an actor from the CIA?

  • esraa
    15 September 2004

    Re: It’s a screwed up world

    PROUD TO BE ANTI-SEMITIC???

    Fuad, are you Arab? Does that mean you loathe your own roots?

    Lose the Jew-a-noia, brother. These conspiracy theories relegate you to the past and have no place among critically thinking Muslims in this day and age. You are merely buying into what the mullah control freaks want to sell you — they are looking to make us all good little sheep… 🙁

    Salaam Alaikum,
    PM

  • esraa
    15 September 2004

    Re: Miscommunication

    I concur with your analysis of Steve and am touched by your kind compliments.

    I have to say that I enjoy participating on this forum more than any other I have experienced. The mix and the nature/style of debate is generally very stimulating, educational and respectful — qualities in short supply on many internet sites.

    Shukrun Jazeelan wa Alla’ yisalmak Mahmood 🙂

    Salaam Alaikum,
    PM

  • fekete
    16 September 2004

    Re(3): It’s a screwed up world

    The first step in staying positive is in recognizing our limitations and faults and working constructively to bridge the gap between where we are and where we want to get to. We need to look in the mirror first and uphold our own standards before we start looking at others.

    And, I, for one, am really tired at the group denial that i see around me in most of my arab and moslem colleagues.

    So, bonsaimark, thanks for the positive spin .. i really appreciate it and i subscribe to it myself … but lets start with the cold hard facts on the ground and build up ..

  • fekete
    16 September 2004

    Re(2): It’s a screwed up world

    Dear Anon,

    Sorry to dissapoint you my friend. I hardly think that Bush is out on a crusade against the moslems in Iraq. It might be more about oil and strategic geopolitical interests than out of any real fundamental concern about Islam as a religion.

    I am by no means a fan of Bush’s foreign policy … and I have questioned it many a time on this blog. But, this aint the Crusades. And, whatever ambivalent feelings the West have about Islam is not beause of the greatness of the religion, but about the stupidity and close mindednss of the people who kill and destroy in its name ..

    The sad truth is that unlike what we choose to beleive and tell ourselves in our Friday sermons, the world does not tremble at Islam, nor at the Moslems. We are doing a fine job crucifying ourselves – we dont need crusadors from abroad to do it for us.

    A moslem and arab Jedi in Jasra

  • esraa
    16 September 2004

    Re(1): It’s a screwed up world

    I agree and I would also add that our “religious” leaders need to stop putting us at war (figuratively and literally) with the non-Muslim world. By that I mean that it is time to accept that Allah is the one thing that can bind us all together — and especially we must reclaim good relations with the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) and eliminate dreams of dhimmitude, hudud laws, etc.

    Naturally, this would go hand in hand with the seperation of sacred and secular realms/power.

    Good to have you back, dear brother 🙂
    PM

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    19 September 2004

    Re(2): Like hitting a cow’s arse with a banjo

    Chan’ad,

    Complaining that Americans did not protest in the streets against Iraqi atrocities is not exactly analogous to complaining that Muslims do not protest in the streets against Muslim atrocities, now is it? It is a bogus complaint. We are not responsible for Arab atrocities such as those at Halabja. The point of protesting in the streets is to pressure the government into changing its policies. If all of America took to the streets to protest Halabja, it would have no effect because the Reagan administration did not gas Iraqis in Halabja. Saddam did. It was Saddam’s policy, not Reagan’s.

    Our government did indeed make a complaint against Iraq gassing its own people in Halabja. The US government pressed this complaint for years. I have seen the tapes of dead Iraqis in Halabja dozens of times, maybe hundreds of times.

    I don’t know what planet you are observing America from, but there has never been a lack of internal criticism of American foreign policy. There is a leftist core which constantly and comprehensively criticizes American foreign policy, among criticism of all things American. They march in the streets, broadcast their views in the media, hand out pamphlets in the street, sue government leaders, et cetera, ad infinitum. They have always been there and have been plenty vocal.

    And, by the way, to answer your condescending demand that I educate myself, I have had a college course many years ago on Middle Eastern history at the Air Force Academy and I did indeed take Arabic from someone who had lived in the Middle East. I have improved considerably on that education since.

    However, that said, thanks for the movie references. I’m pretty bored with Hollywood fare and need to see something outside the box.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.18701700 1099323131.711
    19 September 2004

    It’s a screwed up world

    Hey there,

    I definitly agree with Steve. Take a few steps back and look at the world from a not necessarily one-sided perspective and you will see the lack of respect, constant indifference and the ongoing hypocrisy, aka foreign policy that shapes our world today. It’s a sad state of affairs but one that we all live with, feeling guilty about it or not.
    I blame the Arab world as much as Western policy for the poor shape we’re in now. The crap in Russia that just recently happened with the Chechens, Darfur, the ongoing Israel fiasco and of course Afghanistan and Iraq, two (now) US protectorates that have to deal with the repercussions of a forced ‘democracy’ and will constantly be muscleing in where they feel they have the right to, i.e everywhere else in the Middle East (Iran and Syria here we come).
    I like most have seen the Farenheit 9/11 movie and have been an avid reader or Michael Moore’s books for many years, way before his present day successful notoriety. It’s people like him (not necessarily left-wingers, but people who read between the lines and can see through the propaganda and lies) that drive the point home that most Americans, hell, most people in general, don’t want wars and don’t see the justification of invading a sovereign country to raise oil prices. I have a lot of family in the States and Americans are awesome, witty, laid-back positive people that are knowledgeable and the abject reverse image of their former corn-farmer president.
    As terrible as things are, the knowledge that the masses see through the lies and misconceptions that are fed to them on a daily basis reassures me that people are still people and their compassion stands for a lot. Whether or not it changes things is debatable but it will mean a definate change for things to come.

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