Terrorist attacks in London

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A series of bomb blasts on London’s transport network leaves more than 30 dead and scores injured.
BBC In Depth Reports

My condolence and prayers go to the bereaved families, the injured and all who are affected by this madness.

I completely and unequivocally condemn this terrorist act and its inhuman perpetrators, regardless of the religion or ethnic background they belong to.

I got a call this morning from my brother Hani who lives in London who wanted to inform us that he and his family are fine and were not affected. Thank God for that. He usually uses the public transport system to get to his work, he got out just in time.

However others didn’t fair very well, with over 30 dead and countless injured and maimed.

There is no way that this is not a terrorist act, considering the coordination of the seven attacks which seem also to target the public transport system, the very important system that London lives on to transport millions around the city and its environs.

Various organisations have so far claimed responsibility. No doubt we will hear of the animals who did perpetrate this new atrocity. But I think we all can guess who there are.

The way to beat them is not to give in to them, and more democracy and democratic institutions, a complete overhaul of the education system in the Arab and Muslim worlds and the full separation of Mosque and State.

The time is now. We have to get this done. Otherwise we will be completely left behind and will suffer much more at the hands of these terrorists.

My heart and thoughts go to the people of the United Kingdom in this very difficult time.

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365 Comments
  • anonymous
    7 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    Glad to hear your family is ok.

    Not sure what the motive was. It happened the day after London was chosen for the Olympics so maybe the terrorists were trying to send a message. That brings up the question of whether there were sleeper cells in Paris primed to do the same.

    Or maybe they were trying to disrupt the G8 summit, though I don’t see what jihadists have against African debt relief. Least likely, some fringe anarchist groups? They are basically against everything, but they don’t seem organized enough to operate a kindergarten class.

    Aliandra

  • 7alaylia
    7 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    Good news Mahmood. We have friends in London as well and they are okay. We must NOT give into the extremists on either side. People must continue the march forward despite the extremists and despite the violence.

    Violence begets violence. Time for the moderates, the majority, the call down the hawks on both sides.

    Targeting of civilians is wrong, FULL STOP!

    May God rest their souls and may the people who carried out these attacks get justice in this life and the next.

    Abu Sinan

  • anonymous
    7 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    My cousin and his family are living in London, there were all at work when the explosions happened, and they’re safe, except that getting back home is going to take 3 hours than the usual 1 hour tube ride, plus the telecom network services in London are in a state of alert but he says everything should hopefully be back to normal by tomorrow.

    Had London’s winning bid as the host nation for the int’l olympic games anything to do with these explosions, I’m speculating i guess but i’ve written a lil piece about this on my blog.

    Strav 🙂

  • anonymous
    7 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    here’s the [url=http://stravinskyss.blogspot.com/2005/07/uks-911.html]link[/url].

    strav;)

  • anonymous
    7 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    Thanks, Mahmood. Yesterday we were celebrating getting the 2012 Olympics and today we are dealing with this atrocity. Unfortunately the death toll is going to rise, quite possibly by a lot. The death toll on the crowded bus with the suicide bomber has not been included yet.

    One of my friends was caught up in a blast but fortunately she escaped with only superficial cuts to her arm. Another is locked in to her office block, with the army outside checking for further bombs. I’m still waiting to hear about various other friends and colleagues.

    Ash.

  • 7alaylia
    7 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    I think this has more to do with the G8 summit, not the Olympics. London has dealt with major attacks like this before with the IRA. The bombs themselves were pretty small comapred to ones like Canairy Wharf.

    It is weird to sit and look at images at the tube stations where I had been myself dozens and dozens of times. I lived in England for years and I love England and the English people. They do not deserve this, nor do they deserve the poor leadership they have gotten the last few years from Blair and his government.

    My thoughts are with the families of the victims.

  • anonymous
    7 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik you prick, will you just shut the hell up blaming Bush or Blair, anyone but the tossers who did this. We ELECTED Blair. We ELECTED him three times in succession and HE did not blow up London – you little fundamentalist maniac pals did that. So shut the hell up and stop pissing on the dead with your sanctimonious crap.

  • 7alaylia
    7 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    I just watched Blair’s comments in London. He thanked the Muslim Council of Britain for immiditately coming out and condemning the attack and said that although the attacks claim to be acting for Islam that the majority of Muslims around the world do not support these acts.

    CAIR, the Council on American Islamic Relations, has condemned the attacks as well:

    [b]In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful

    CAIR CONDEMNS ‘BARBARIC’ LONDON TERROR ATTACKS[/b]

    (WASHINGTON, D.C., 7/7/05) – A prominent national Islamic civil rights and advocacy group today condemned this morning’s bomb attacks in London as “barbaric crimes.”

    In its statement, the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) said:

    “We join Americans of all faiths, and all people of conscience worldwide, in condemning these barbaric crimes that can never be justified or excused. American Muslims offer their sincere condolences to the loved ones of those who were killed or injured in today’s attacks and call for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators.”

    The Muslim Council of Britain and other British Islamic groups issued similar condemnations of the attacks and urged Muslims to help in the recovery effort.

    In 2004, CAIR launched an online petition drive, called “Not in the Name of Islam,” designed to disassociate Islam from the violent acts of a few Muslims. SEE: [url]http://www.cair-net.org/asp/article.asp?id=169&page=AA[/url]
    The “Not in the Name of Islam” petition states: “We, the undersigned Muslims, wish to state clearly that those who commit acts of terror, murder and cruelty in the name of Islam are not only destroying innocent lives, but are also betraying the values of the faith they claim to represent. No injustice done to Muslims can ever justify the massacre of innocent people, and no act of terror will ever serve the cause of Islam. We repudiate and dissociate ourselves from any Muslim group or individual who commits such brutal and un-Islamic acts. We refuse to allow our faith to be held hostage by the criminal actions of a tiny minority acting outside the teachings of both the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.”

    CAIR, America’s largest Muslim civil liberties group, has 31 offices and chapters nationwide and in Canada. Its mission is to enhance the understanding of Islam, encourage dialogue, protect civil liberties, empower American Muslims, and build coalitions that promote justice and mutual understanding. To read CAIR’s Mission, Vision Statement and Core Principles, go to: [url]http://www.cair-net.org/default.asp?Page=About[/url]

  • 7alaylia
    7 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Malik you prick, will you just shut the hell up blaming Bush or Blair, anyone but the tossers who did this. We ELECTED Blair. We ELECTED him three times in succession and HE did not blow up London – you little fundamentalist maniac pals did that. So shut the hell up and stop pissing on the dead with your sanctimonious crap. [/quote]

    I never claimed that he blew up anything. I said he has provided the UK with poor leadership. I fail to see how that translates into him setting the bombs himself. Blair did not listen to the people who elected them and lead them into a war they did not want. Plain and simple. Does that mean Brits deserved to be bombed? Of course not! Civilians anywhere do not deserve to be bombed. Targeting civilians is a cowards act.

    I also have said my thoughts were with the victims, as they are. Sorry you took this any other way. Things like this do not happen in a vacuum. If we do not want to see these things happen again, whether in Britain, Iraq or the USA, we must address what causes these things.

    What is important here is that attacks that kill civilains are wrong, and that they be stopped where ever they happen, Afghanistan, Iraq, UK, America, you name it. The dead of all countries have equal value. There is no difference between 40 dead in Iraq and 40 dead in the UK. They are all equal and have equal humanity. Which is why it MUST be stopped.

  • anonymous
    7 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    Just learn when to shut up Malik. It’s a forlorn hope, I know, but you could at least try.

    Right now London is in mid-disaster mode. The rest of the country is stunned. Everyone I know is worried about a loved one, a friend, a colleague. The Muslims here are terrified that they are going to be dragged out of their homes and lynched. Everything is tense and angry. But you, with all the sensitivity of the average housebrick, want to use this event to score political points before the dead are even cold and the dust has settled.

    It’s a good thing you are in the US because we really don’t need people like you here. Like I said, learn when to shut up.

  • 7alaylia
    7 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    I lived in the UK for years, sorry. I am well aware of the situation of the Muslim community there as I was a part of it.

    What is important is that people take a deep look into things so that future outrages like this can be stopped. Using an emergency as a way to stop dialogue is the EXACT wrong thing to do.

    The way to beat the terrorists is to use incidents like this to pull people together, not to pull them apart and to silence people. As to being worried about being attacked for being Muslim, we have had many such incidents here, women in hijab stabbed and the like. My wife was scared crazy after 9/11, but caring university sutdents offered to walk her to her car to protect her.

    That is what it MUST be about, people coming together and telling the terrorists you wont tear us apart, you wont drive wedges into our society. For that to happen there must be dialogue.

    My heart, thoughts and prayers go out to the victims of these attacks. Full stop.

  • anonymous
    7 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]He thanked the Muslim Council of Britain for immiditately coming out and condemning the attack [/quote]

    He actually had to thank them for doing what was obviously correct?

    Sheesh

    Aliandra

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    7 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    Well, I’ll wait and see where the facts lead us regarding the perpetrators. Maybe there are murdering maniac terrorists who are not Muslim.

    I am little impressed by CAIR’s statement that condemns the latest terror atrocity while backhandedly offering a justification for it: “No injustice done to Muslims can ever justify the massacre of innocent people….” Injustice to Muslims, my ass. What a contemptible group this is to use this atrocity to forward their bogus claim of victimhood.

    I am also little impressed by Massoud Shadjareh of the Islamic Human Rights Commission (pause for laughter) who claims Muslims in England are the true victims of this attack and should stay indoors lest the British attack them. So lets do a little reality check here: 40 British dead and 700 British wounded, so far, versus zero Muslim dead and zero Muslim wounded. And the Muslims claim THEY are the victims of violent religious intolerance.

    http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=122125960&p=yzzyz654x

    Disgusted,

    Steve

  • 7alaylia
    7 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]He thanked the Muslim Council of Britain for immiditately coming out and condemning the attack

    He actually had to thank them for doing what was obviously correct?

    Sheesh

    Aliandra [/quote]

    No, I think he did that to try and pre-empt some of the anti-Muslim violence that is certain to erupt. I think he felt he had to remind the British people that these terrorists do not act in the name of 99% of Muslims. He didnt do this to recognise Muslims, I think he did this to protect Muslims. Good move on his part.

  • anonymous
    7 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]MALIK: I said he has provided the UK with poor leadership. [/quote]

    Malik, you’re not a UK citizen so you aren’t really qualified to make statements like this. Say what you like, but it’s the British opinion that holds all the weight.

    Aliandra

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    7 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik: “If we do not want to see these things happen again, whether in Britain, Iraq or the USA, we must address what causes these things.”

    How contemptible it is to profess outrage at this latest terrorist atrocity while providing backhanded justification for it. It is exactly this kind of oily smarmy dishonesty that inspires contempt for Muslims.

    Don’t you think we can see through your rather transparently false concern for the British victims to find your sympathy with the terrorist cause?

    You are not fooling anybody.

    Steve

  • 7alaylia
    7 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Well, I’ll wait and see where the facts lead us regarding the perpetrators. Maybe there are murdering maniac terrorists who are not Muslim.
    I am little impressed by CAIR’s statement that condemns the latest terror atrocity while backhandedly offering a justification for it: “No injustice done to Muslims can ever justify the massacre of innocent people….” Injustice to Muslims, my ass. What a contemptible group this is to use this atrocity to forward their bogus claim of victimhood.
    I am also little impressed by Massoud Shadjareh of the Islamic Human Rights Commission (pause for laughter) who claims Muslims in England are the true victims of this attack and should stay indoors lest the British attack them. So lets do a little reality check here: 40 British dead and 700 British wounded, so far, versus zero Muslim dead and zero Muslim wounded. And the Muslims claim THEY are the victims of violent religious intolerance.

    http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=122125960&p=yzzyz654x

    Disgusted,

    Steve [/quote]

    I guess the real lesson here is that there is nothing Muslims or Muslim organisations can do to please some people. That is fine. They will continue doing what is right even if you or others are not pleased with it. It is clear that even Blair is worried about an anti Muslim backlash, that is the reason why he reminded the British, and the world as a whole, that the vast majority of Muslims are law abidding citizens and do not support these acts. He didnt recognise the Muslim Council of Britain to give them kudos, he mentioned the condemnation to remind the average British citizen that Muslims are NOT the enemy.

    There is a history of communal violence in Britain between the immigrant Muslim community and the local British community, it is with this in mind that Blair made the comments that he did.

    40 civilians have died today in the UK, may God have mercy on their souls. Thousands of civilians, of equal worth, have died in Iraq this year, may God have mercy on their souls. We need to get on with figuring out how to keep civilians from dying, no assigning blame. The dead civilians in Iraq are not of inferior value, nor do they deserve to die because of where they come from or their religion. [b]One Iraqi has the same exact value of one Brit, and one civilian dead is too many![/b]

  • 7alaylia
    7 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Malik: “If we do not want to see these things happen again, whether in Britain, Iraq or the USA, we must address what causes these things.”
    How contemptible it is to profess outrage at this latest terrorist atrocity while providing backhanded justification for it. It is exactly this kind of oily smarmy dishonesty that inspires contempt for Muslims.
    Don’t you think we can see through your rather transparently false concern for the British victims to find your sympathy with the terrorist cause?

    You are not fooling anybody.

    Steve [/quote]

    I am not trying to “fool” anyone. I am rather open and honest with my beliefs. I think what has happened today is a tragedy, but no more so than the hundreds and thousands of Iraqi civilians that have died. I believe that all humans have equal value, whether they come from Iraq, Jordan, the US or Britain.

    I have no sympathy for the “terrorist cause”. If I did so I would hardly condemn their tactics. At the same time I am fully aware that things do not happen in a vacuum. If you want to prevent further attacks one must address the root causes for the attacks.

    If you have a cancer in your shoulder that has spread to your arm you can hardly cut off the arm and hope to stem the spread of the cancer.

    It is not justifying the attacks to want to understand and remedy the cause for the attacks. Your solution will be, inevitabley, to just strike back with military force. I think, when US military leaders in Iraq have stated there is no sole military solution to the insurgency there, that it must be a military AND political solution, that they were right about Iraq and the also the global conflict as well. There is no single military solution Steve. It is military and political. If you insist on only the military option you will NOT win and you will ENSURE tens of thousands more dead with no end in sight.

    There is ONE solution only, a combined military and political strategy, keeping all options open. Funny, you call me an extremist yet I am advocating military actions against extremists. Steve, again you pigeon-hole people and again you get it all wrong.

  • anonymous
    7 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]One Iraqi has the same exact value of one Brit, and one civilian dead is too many! [/quote]

    I wonder if you were reciting this mantra while Saddam was gassing Kurds, massacring Shiahs, and his charming sons were feeding their victims through a plastic shredder? And I wonder if you’d be reciting it if a member of your family had been killed in today’s attacks?

    Moreover, London is one of the most ethnically diverse cities in the world, with over 40% of its population of recent immigrant origin. If you think everyone who died today was a white indigenous Briton, think again bozo.

  • 7alaylia
    7 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Quote:

    MALIK: I said he has provided the UK with poor leadership.

    Malik, you’re not a UK citizen so you aren’t really qualified to make statements like this. Say what you like, but it’s the British opinion that holds all the weight.

    Aliandra [/quote]

    Interesting premise. Does that mean since you are not a Muslim you have no right to comment on Islam or Muslim leaders? If you are not Iraqi does this mean you have no right to make any statements about Iraq? Correct me if I am wrong but you are NOT Bahraini, yet I am sure I have seen you make statements about leaders in Bahrain.

    Pot calling kettle black I think. I am a thinking human being. I have the right to make any statement I want about my beliefs. The only difference between myself and a Brit is I am not usually directly effected by the mistakes of Blair, nor can I vote for him. Non Americans make statements all of the time here about Bush and the US, yet I have never heard you use this argument to try and silence them. I have seen people here make comments about Saudi Arabia that arent Saudi, yet no comment from you.

    Your premise is targeted solely at me, not to mention the shear idea means that nobody is allowed an opinion unless they are directly related to or involved in a situation. If that was true it would make all blogs, this life, and media completely boring. I guess since the New York Times isnt a British paper they are not allowed to report on Blair, the UK, or his failings as a leader?

    Your premise just lacks common sense. I lived in the UK for years, paid British taxes and am well aware of the political situation in the UK. But even if I wasnt, that would not mean that I have no right to have an opinion. But, if you feel this way, feel free to restrict YOUR comments to subjects to which you are directly related to or a part of, which will mean 90% of your earlier comments on this board were out of line.

  • 7alaylia
    7 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]One Iraqi has the same exact value of one Brit, and one civilian dead is too many!

    I wonder if you were reciting this mantra while Saddam was gassing Kurds, massacring Shiahs, and his charming sons were feeding their victims through a plastic shredder? And I wonder if you’d be reciting it if a member of your family had been killed in today’s attacks?

    Moreover, London is one of the most ethnically diverse cities in the world, with over 40% of its population of recent immigrant origin. If you think everyone who died today was a white indigenous Briton, think again bozo. [/quote]

    I mot certainly was! I hated my governments policy of supporting Saddam before, during and after he gassed the Kurds. I most certainly would be reciting if if family members were killed today. Anyone who has their opinions swayed because someone in their family was injured or hurt didnt hold those opinions too highly in the first place. Either you believe something or you dont, doesnt matter how you are affected.

    I am well aware that London is probably THE most diverse city in the world. It is why I loved living in England so much. It was great to stand on a street corner and hear 20 different languages spoken, non of them English. It was great to visit friends in Cricklewood, to get off the bus and almost feel like you were in the Middle East. Street signs in Arabic, all the women wearing Hijab, halal butcher shops right next to Irish pubs.

    I am sure more than a few people killed today, God rest their souls, were not of “native British” backgrounds. But these terrorists dont care who they kill, Christian, Muslim, white, black, nothing is sacred to them.

  • 7alaylia
    7 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    I have made my point of view clear. Lets leave the political discussion off and focus our minds and thoughts on the victims and their friends and families.

  • anonymous
    7 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    Well, I hope you never live in England again. Your comments are disgraceful.

  • anonymous
    7 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik,

    All hysterics aside, I am more qualified to judge my own country’s leadership than any non-American, since I am most directly affected by it. The British poster has said the same thing in regards to his own country – and to you specifically.

    For once, Malik, stop insisting you know more about a situation than people who are actually living in it. Everytime someone points that out to you, you cry that they are trying to silence you. We’re not.

    Take a chill pill, ok?

    Aliandra

  • anonymous
    7 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    I have no sympathy for the “terrorist cause”. If I did so I would hardly condemn their tactics. At the same time I am fully aware that things do not happen in a vacuum. If you want to prevent further attacks one must address the root causes for the attacks.

    Actually, things do happen in a vacuum. Some killing is just senseless, with no justification what so ever. Furthermore, everyone has a grievance. Talking about root causes isn’t very productive in cases like these.

    The organization that is taking responsiblity for this is claiming it’s retaliation for the UK’s involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan. Two pretty different situations if you ask me. But lets say that this reason is legitimate, then the whole Osama bin Laden argument of ‘infidels on Muslim soil’ is legitimate, as is the existence of the Jewish state. And if that’s true then European, Arab, and Chaldean Christians have legitimate gripes against all Muslims for invading and conquering former Christian lands so on and so forth.

    That line of logic is the famous slippery slope and ultimately you capitulate to whatever demands are put forth. There is no root cause for this sort of atrocity, other than human nature.

  • anonymous
    7 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    Guys… let’s stop the recriminations. We all know where the blame should be directed. Mahmood is right… religion and government should not mix.

    This atrocity has affected London in so many ways and we haven’t yet figured out how to deal with this. The animals that did this deserve to be hunted down and brought to justice.

    I was lucky this morning. I had to leave home 15 mins earlier than usual and one of the explosions happened between King’s Cross and Russell Square on the tube line I use. Others weren’t so lucky.

    – Hani

  • anonymous
    7 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    Glad you are safe, Hani.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    7 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik: “What is important is that people take a deep look into things so that future outrages like this can be stopped. Using an emergency as a way to stop dialogue is the EXACT wrong thing to do.”

    Malik, please tell us all when the terrorists in this case initiated any dialogue. You can not stop something that never started. Instead of blaming the victims for stopping a dialogue, why don’t you blame the terrorist perpetrators for substituting murder for talk.

    Malik: “The way to beat the terrorists is to use incidents like this to pull people together, not to pull them apart and to silence people.”

    The way to beat terrorists is to kill them.

    Malik: “As to being worried about being attacked for being Muslim, we have had many such incidents here, women in hijab stabbed and the like. My wife was scared crazy after 9/11, but caring university sutdents offered to walk her to her car to protect her.”

    Bullshit. The predominant purveyors of religious violence in America are Muslims. There was no violent backlash against Muslims after the Sep 11 atrocities. You can tell by the lack of armed guards at mosques here. Americans don’t go wild in the streets killing people for their religion like Muslims do.

    Malik: “That is what it MUST be about, people coming together and telling the terrorists you wont tear us apart, you wont drive wedges into our society. For that to happen there must be dialogue.”

    Tell it to the terrorists.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    7 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    Tell it to Zarqawi.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    7 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik: “There is a history of communal violence in Britain between the immigrant Muslim community and the local British community, it is with this in mind that Blair made the comments that he did.”

    There is a history of violence between the locals and immigrant Muslim community in every country where Muslims settle around the world.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    7 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    Here is my speculation about the bombings in London which I freely admit I make with no facts regarding the perpetrators whatsoever:

    1. The perpetrators are Islamist fundamentalists, probably from North Africa, operating on their own dime.

    2. It’s not Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda has no muscle anymore to project power beyond Saudi Arabia or enclaves in Pakistan. However, the terrorist group will probably borrow Al Qaeda’s name to maximize the terror.

    3. The entire terror cell is probably four dozen or more, including support people. It will take weeks to run them all down.

    4. Some of them will be caught fairly quickly. London is covered by tens of thousands of surveillance cameras. It seems obvious that somebody planting a bomb on the subway will be identified.

    5. We will see security video of one or more of the blasts.

    6. The perpetrators hid among the Muslim immigrant population of London, who will claim that they are innocent, falsely accused, victims of oppression, racism, religious bigotry, ya da da, ya da da.

    7. Some of the perpetrators will be cornered and shoot it out with the Brits.

    8. The Saudis will have a hand in it somehow, with money or indoctrination at a Wahhabi mosque.

    9. The terrorists will have made some seriously stupid mistakes which make it easy to identify and catch some of them.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    7 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    Hani

    First and foremost I am glad you and the family are OK. It is sobering to think how a few ticks on either side of the clock, has now and will forever impact your life. Thank God you are OK and I pray for all on this day. I know how you are feeling.

    The crux here is Malik flapping his gums in matters he has no business talking about at this time. He stirs the pot and then howls foul and asks everyone to calm down. Always a caveat with Malik. The very same fallacious tactics he plays out wherever he slimes his way into. I would have thought he would have limited his BS to his own blog on this day out of respect if nothing else. However it seems he couldn’t resist dumping water on the hornets nest. Perhaps he is a contemptible little tart or perhaps he is shamelessly trying to gain some readership to his blog. Is this your idea of good craic Malik? FULL STOP. If you are any kind of a man Malik you will not answer this post. You will take stock in yourself, your torqued views and keep your fingers off the keyboard. People died today and sadly more will likely die as a result of this TERRORISM today. Do us all a favour and keep your pontificating comments to yourself for the time being.

  • anonymous
    7 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Guys… let’s stop the recriminations. We all know where the blame should be directed. Mahmood is right… religion and government should not mix.
    This atrocity has affected London in so many ways and we haven’t yet figured out how to deal with this. The animals that did this deserve to be hunted down and brought to justice.
    I was lucky this morning. I had to leave home 15 mins earlier than usual and one of the explosions happened between King’s Cross and Russell Square on the tube line I use. Others weren’t so lucky.

    – Hani [/quote]

    Glad you made it out safe Hani. I agree with the statement that religion and politics should not mix. Whenever it does there are many problems.

    I am glad you made it safe, as did your families. It took some time but I contacted my friends in the city and they were safe as well. Lets keep the families of the dead in mind and the families of the wounded in our prayers.

    Allah Ma3akum.

  • 7alaylia
    7 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    The above post was mine. I keep on forgetting to sign on at home.

  • 7alaylia
    7 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Malik, please tell us all when the terrorists in this case initiated any dialogue. You can not stop something that never started. Instead of blaming the victims for stopping a dialogue, why don’t you blame the terrorist perpetrators for substituting murder for talk. [/quote]

    The terrorists are only a symptom of the issues. The issues are real and they are political, not religious in nature.

    [quote]Malik: “The way to beat the terrorists is to use incidents like this to pull people together, not to pull them apart and to silence people.”
    The way to beat terrorists is to kill them. [/quote]

    So when senior military leaders, American, in Iraq say there is no military solution they are wrong? You know more than the generals leading the US military in Iraq? Really? There is no military solution. It will be a combination of politics and military.

    [quote]Bullshit. The predominant purveyors of religious violence in America are Muslims. There was no violent backlash against Muslims after the Sep 11 atrocities. You can tell by the lack of armed guards at mosques here. Americans don’t go wild in the streets killing people for their religion like Muslims do. [/quote]

    There was a raise in attacks against Muslims after 9/11 of well over 100%. Sounds pretty significant to me. Several men were killed by people who thought they were Muslim. Turned out the murderers were too stupid to know the difference between a Sikh and a Muslim.

    As to armed guards at mosques, there are armed guards at a mosque a few miles from you, and has been since 9/11. Dar al Hijrah has armed guards, wearing visable arms, guarding the mosque. This mosque is about 5 miles from where you work every day. They are armed, and they are Muslim. Another case of because Steve not knowing about it meaning that it doesnt exist. Steve doesnt have a clue what is happening a few miles from him let alone on the other side of the world.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    7 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik: “I am not trying to “fool” anyone. I am rather open and honest with my beliefs. I think what has happened today is a tragedy, but no more so than the hundreds and thousands of Iraqi civilians that have died. I believe that all humans have equal value, whether they come from Iraq, Jordan, the US or Britain.”

    First, you are being dishonest by equating the London terrorist atrocity with lives lost in Iraq, implying that the US is morally equivalent to the terrorists. In fact, the bulk of the Iraqis killed have been by the hand of their own Sunni countrymen attempting to reestablish a Baathist tyranny or by foreign jihadis wanting a Wahhabi theocracy.

    Malik: “I have no sympathy for the “terrorist cause”. If I did so I would hardly condemn their tactics. At the same time I am fully aware that things do not happen in a vacuum. If you want to prevent further attacks one must address the root causes for the attacks.”

    There are plenty of Muslim clerics who condemn terrorist tactics of Wahhabis yet sympathize with their aim of a Muslim state and Muslim empire. While we do not know yet who perpetrated this most recent slaughter, the root cause of Islamic terror is Muslim bigotry toward other religions and philosophies.

    Malik: “It is not justifying the attacks to want to understand and remedy the cause for the attacks. Your solution will be, inevitabley, to just strike back with military force.”

    It’s a good beginning, Malik. It is the only thing the Islamists understand or respect.

    Malik: “I think, when US military leaders in Iraq have stated there is no sole military solution to the insurgency there, that it must be a military AND political solution, that they were right about Iraq and the also the global conflict as well. There is no single military solution Steve. It is military and political. If you insist on only the military option you will NOT win and you will ENSURE tens of thousands more dead with no end in sight.”

    Malik, military campaigns are extensions of politics. You can not have a military campaign that does not fulfill a political goal. It doesn’t make any sense to argue that we have a military solution isolated from political strategy. Therefore, the premise of your argument is false and your conclusion as well.

    Steve

  • mahmood
    7 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik, I would really like you to take this topic and post something on it on your blog if you would, as you might have better discussions there. What I would like to do is show respect for the dead and injured, and to provide some succour to the UK. What you did, but dragging Blair into this is not something I would like to indulge in. I don’t want to indulge in many more of your comments against Steve and the others and vice versa. I am sick of seeing that in my blog. We know all of your positions by heart, so please stop. Do not post any more comments on this thread. Restrain yourself. If you find that you MUST answer a comment, then link to it from your blog by all means, and then enter a reply there.

    For all of those interested in continuing the conversation about the political/islamic/etc aspects of the terrorist attacks in London, please go to http://abusinan.blogspot.com as I might be deleting a number of wayword comments entered on this thread.

  • anonymous
    7 July 2005

    Re(5): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik please do us all a favor and BACK off. JEESE. Today is not the day for this from you so save it till later. Show your have some stones and keep you lips ZIPPED for the time being.

  • mahmood
    7 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    Well, tonight I’m not particularly proud of being an Arab or a Muslim.

    Good night.

  • anonymous
    7 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    Mahmood

    You hold your head high my friend! You have NOTHING to ashamed of and much to be proud of.

    Now Dr. Mark prescribes the following to cure you ills.

    2 doz Shawarmas and your favorite amber colored beverage(s). After this you will sleep just fine.

    Ciao!
    Mark

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    7 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik: “There was a raise in attacks against Muslims after 9/11 of well over 100%. Sounds pretty significant to me. Several men were killed by people who thought they were Muslim. Turned out the murderers were too stupid to know the difference between a Sikh and a Muslim.”

    Bullshit, Malik. After Sep 11, I can recall one Muslim being shot in a convenience store holdup with some ethnic slurs made in the process. A handful of crimes does not make a country-wide backlash against Muslims. We have a long way to go to top three thousand dead, vaporized by Muslim bigotry.

    Malik: “As to armed guards at mosques, there are armed guards at a mosque a few miles from you, and has been since 9/11. Dar al Hijrah has armed guards, wearing visable arms, guarding the mosque. This mosque is about 5 miles from where you work every day. They are armed, and they are Muslim. Another case of because Steve not knowing about it meaning that it doesnt exist. Steve doesnt have a clue what is happening a few miles from him let alone on the other side of the world.”

    I just drove by the Islamic Center on Massachussetts Avenue in Washington Saturday night. There were no armed guards anywhere to be seen. There were no mobs of Americans with torches and farm implements besieging the place, which, with its minarets and obvious Middle Eastern architecture, could hardly be more obvious.

    If some dumb Muslims at your mosque want to play cowboy and pretend they are heroes guarding it against swarms of American bigots circling about, that doesn’t mean there actually is a threat to defend against. It’s just another way Muslims pretend to be oppressed victims in order to distract from the crimes committed in the name of Islam.

    Steve

    [Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on July 12, 2005 09:23 AM]

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    7 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    It’s a little early for self-flagellation, Mahmood. The facts aren’t in yet.

    And I know you are not part of this.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    7 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    Mahmood, you are one of the finest people I’ve ever encountered (even though we’ve never met IRL, obviously). I read your blog because it gives me hope for humanity and that’s why it was one of the first websites I visited today after hearing of these terrible events in my country. You have nothing whatsoever to be ashamed of.

    Ash

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    7 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    “I expected some grief, at least as much as there was when Lady Di died. And grief I got. I interviewed three very ordinary, normal teenaged English Muslims, one with short spiky hair (dressed not unlike my 10 year-old-dude). All three seem to be parroting Muslim talking points. “The bombings were a conspiracy by Blair to generate support for the war,” they recited in a charming British accent.”

    Charmaine Yoest
    reporting from the scene of the bombings in London
    http://powerlineblog.com/archives/010962.php

  • Steelangel
    7 July 2005

    Re(5): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]The issues are real and they are political, not religious in nature. [/quote]

    In Islam, religion is politics is religion. Look at Bahrain, where you have political parties based on religious lines. Or in Egypt, where a religious party wishes to bring religious laws (which trump man’s law by fiat of the Koran) to rule the nation.

    But then again, I’ve never once expected you to have spent five minutes actually reading and understanding Malik.

    Fight the infidels until all religion is for Allah and all that. Surah 8. Read it.

    [quote]There was a raise in attacks against Muslims after 9/11 of well over 100%. [/quote]

    If, in 2000 there were 10 attacks, and in 2002, there were 40, that’s an increase of 400%.

    Percentages lie. And that’s not counting the many ‘hate crimes’ that were perpetrated by Muslims themselves in order to pretend that they are a persecuted class. They are not. There are more hate crimes against Jews in the US than against Muslims. The US has gone out of its way to be kind to Muslims as the official governmental line.

    I mean, would the US have given German POWs a copy of Mein Kampf and demoted and disciplines guards for ‘disrespecting’ it?

    Contrast to the Muslim Jihadi who follows his own religious law as said by God and the actions of Mohammed. Human rights? Respect for other religions? Egyptian Ambassador?

    Mahmood – I do not wish to start a flamewar but I have not heard from a few close friends of mine who are in London right now despite phone calls. I’m on edge at the moment.

  • Steelangel
    7 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]There is a history of violence between the locals and immigrant Muslim community in every country where Muslims settle around the world. [/quote]

    Not always.

    The problem comes in when the immigrant population decides that it doesn’t want to integrate, or join the majority culture. hey want their beliefs respected, even to the point where the indiginous culture is disrespected. A good example of this is the ‘porking yard’ sign at a pub that ‘offended’ some Muslims in Britain.

    To these things I say: If you’re offended by a culture that is not yours, go home. It is not the West’s job to pander to your religious sensibilities. Ever. We’ll let you worship. But the second you think that you can demand that pork be banned in school lunches or that alcohol not be seved at certain dinner functions, then -you- have the problem, not us. Grow the hell up.

    Today, I’m officially sick of being tolerant.

  • Steelangel
    7 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]1. The perpetrators are Islamist fundamentalists, probably from North Africa, operating on their own dime. [/quote]

    I agree in the first, not the second. I would place them more likely as Arab, not African.

    [quote]2. It’s not Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda has no muscle anymore to project power beyond Saudi Arabia or enclaves in Pakistan. However, the terrorist group will probably borrow Al Qaeda’s name to maximize the terror.[/quote]

    Al-Qaeda is like McDonalds. It’s a franchise name now, not a solid organization. Osama bin Laden is no Cobra Commander.

    [quote]3. The entire terror cell is probably four dozen or more, including support people. It will take weeks to run them all down.[/quote]

    And most will never be caught – as they are likely part of the community and seem ‘moderate and regular’ just like everyone else.

    [quote]4. Some of them will be caught fairly quickly. London is covered by tens of thousands of surveillance cameras. It seems obvious that somebody planting a bomb on the subway will be identified.[/quote]

    Hopefully.

    [quote]5. We will see security video of one or more of the blasts.[/quote]

    And for every 5 people watching it, one will clap and cheer.

    [quote]6. The perpetrators hid among the Muslim immigrant population of London, who will claim that they are innocent, falsely accused, victims of oppression, racism, religious bigotry, ya da da, ya da da.[/quote]

    They were nice boys. Very Religious.

    We’ll hear that again and again. The more religious they claim the kid is, the more likely that kid will be a violent terrorist. I wonder why.

    [quote]7. Some of the perpetrators will be cornered and shoot it out with the Brits.[/quote]

    And I hope that the Brits have the temerity to shoot back if they take cover in a Mosque.

    [quote]8. The Saudis will have a hand in it somehow, with money or indoctrination at a Wahhabi mosque.[/quote]

    This is not unexpected. The Saudis have a hand in everything that is evil in this world.

    [quote]9. The terrorists will have made some seriously stupid mistakes which make it easy to identify and catch some of them.[/quote]

    Of course. Allah will protect them. That’s their first mistake.

  • anonymous
    8 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    Emir,

    The biggest mass murderer of all time was communism, an atheistic philosophy. Secular humanism is no more immune to bad behavior than is any other philosophy.

    The problem, generally, is not with our philosophies. It’s when we impose them on others.

    Aliandra

  • Steelangel
    8 July 2005

    Re(7): Terrorist attacks in London

    They are well, thank goodness, though one was in building lockdown yesterday after the attacks. I hope that you hear from your friend as well, and I hope they catch those bombers with extreme prejudice.

  • anonymous
    8 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    For those affected by yesterday’s heinous acts, either directly or indirectly, I hope you’re all safe and in good health.

    I can’t begin to describe what it was like living in London yesterday. I was asleep when it all happened, startled by my dad’s phone call so early in the morning asking if I was ok. I was in a state of shock, the mobile networks were jammed, the landlines were strained too, and the only means of communicating was via email or msn. I’m just glad I decided to take the day off instead of going into uni, I don’t know what it would’ve been like walking home across waterloo bridge.

    I’m still in shock, I didn’t dare go outside, but the sirens were loud, unbelievably loud! Even as I finally went to bed, the sirens were going off in my head. I managed to step outside today for a cup of coffee, and it looks like the people are quiet, but determined to go on.

    Reading this thread was difficult, at a time like this, it’s hard enough coming to terms with the loss of life, and the myriad possibilities of ‘what ifs ?’ … My deepest condolences to those affected, and to the rest of the Londoners, stay safe.

    I’m not sure how many of my fellow students are still here, Khalid, are you ok?

  • Reem
    8 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    The above post is mine, I forgot to sign in!

  • GB
    8 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    Just to say a big thank you to all the emergency services and how well they’ve coped with yesterday’s horrible events, most of my mates are accounted for, I’m still trying to get in touch with a few others, hopefully they’ll all ok. My prayers and heartfelt sympathy goes to everyone at this difficult time.

    I’d also like to say that London will get through this, we’re better than these criminals and if they think this’ll get us down then they better think again.

  • Steelangel
    8 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]The biggest mass murderer of all time was communism, an atheistic philosophy. Secular humanism is no more immune to bad behavior than is any other philosophy. [/quote]

    I keep hearing this canard, and i’ve gotten to the point where I don’t believe it.

    Communism was Atheist in that they officially had no big guy sitting on a cloud doling out orders via Angel to desert people.

    But Communism did/does have ‘Gods’ – Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Ho Chih Min, Kim Jong Il. Communism, like some certain religions become a cult of personality based around one person’s views and their actions.

    There is precious little difference between the ‘Dear Leader

  • anonymous
    8 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]The problem, generally, is not with our philosophies. It’s when we impose them on others.[/quote]

    Suppose the “philosophy” itself demands that its adherants try to impose it on others?

  • anonymous
    8 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]”The bombings were a conspiracy by Blair to generate support for the war,” they recited in a charming British accent.” [/quote]

    Good grief. Did 3000 Jews stay home that day too?

  • anonymous
    8 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Suppose the “philosophy” itself demands that its adherants try to impose it on others? [/quote]

    Then that’s a bad philosophy and needs to be eliminated. But there have been plenty of non-religious philosophies that were very destructive.

    Aliandra

  • anonymous
    8 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    well tonight, we’re not proud of having u as as muslim or an arab, in fact were ashamed.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    8 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    Jasra, my dear,

    I am not so impressed by Livingstone’s speech, which seems to me to be an exercise in anemometry rather than a declaration of principle. He was equally eloquent in his defense of Dr Yusuf al-Qaradawi, who supports suicide bombings as a legitimate tactic, when that seemed trendy among the liberal elites of London. I imagine Red Ken enjoyed the prospect of such bombings when they are done in Israel but not on his own doorstep.

    I agree that there was a measure of amateurishness to this particular attack. I was struck by the photo of the bombed double-decker bus. The level of damage was moderate compared to equivalent bombings of Israeli buses. The seats were not charred, the bus was not burnt. It does not appear that the bomb was placed in the center for maximum effect but rather at the rear. There is one theory afloat that this particular bomb, set by timer, may have been carried by a mule who was late to the subway to plant it and perished for his tardiness.

    I also agree that the spontaneous generation of terror cells among Muslim populations in the West bodes ill. It is crazy for Britain, among other countries, to host foreign Muslims who want to destroy their country and provide welfare so they can pursue their terrorist occupations. They need to start deporting the fundamentalists like France does.

    I absolutely disagree that the Egyptian ambassador to Iraq was not an innocent civilian. He most certainly was.

    And I completely disagree that the terrorism will never end. It will end when we destroy its patrons who fund it and encourage it.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    8 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]But there have been plenty of non-religious philosophies that were very destructive.
    [/quote]

    True, but since when have we been expected to be oh-so-polite about, say, Stalinism or Nazism? Were Nazi atrocities okay just because Stalinism killed more people? Should we not criticise Nazism, just because other doctrines have been equally or more tyrannical and destructive?

  • mahmood
    8 July 2005

    Re(6): Terrorist attacks in London

    I understand Ethan, I hope they are fine.

    There is one friend I’m still to hear of in London myself and hope to God that she’s alright.

  • mahmood
    8 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    Ash I appreciate your comment. Very much. I’m at a loss… one of the reasons I started this blog was to try to create a bridge between cultures, to try to show people that we too are just normal people with various wants and needs. But this is not enough. It is time now to stop requesting that our governments take terror seriously. That should be a demand now, and it should be in the form of completely reshaping this society so that at least the next generation or two would be completely integrated with the larger world.

  • mahmood
    8 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    If the statistical error for this attack not being perpetrated by Muslims and Al-Qaeda supporters is close to 0.001%. It is highly unlikely that it is anarchists against the G8 summit. It could be, but I’ll stick to the first premise for now.

  • mahmood
    8 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    Welcome aboard Emir. Looking forward to your input.

  • mahmood
    8 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    Thank goodness you’re fine Reem, good to hear from you.

  • anonymous
    8 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    corwardly acts. sick minorities ruining the lives of law abiding majorities. this is all they know…

  • anonymous
    8 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    Where are the Fatwas against Bin Laden. The muslim community has been disgracefully silent. Where are the cowardly Islamic leaders condemning such actions? Deeds not words, are what the world expect before Islam can be expected to get any respect. The disgraceful coverage from Al Jazeera, referring to Islamic terrorists in Iraq that car bomb innocent Muslim babies as Freedom Fighters. The lack of action by all Muslims make all Muslims look like a joke. It is time to grow up, or time to die. And you wonder why Arab muslims are reaping hatred in the West. Tolerance has its limits, yes even in the West, and Arab Muslims are rapidly running out of time.

  • chalk66x
    8 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    Sigh! You dont believe in terrorism, you didnt do the bombing. Be proud of who you are and what you do as a human being.

    billT

  • anonymous
    8 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Well, tonight I’m not particularly proud of being an Arab or a Muslim.
    Good night. [/quote]

    The assumption is that Arabs had a role in this. That has not been born out. Given the make up of the UK Muslim community, it is unlikely. Am I upset that some of my co-religionists did this attack? Yes, certainly! Am I ashamed to be a Muslim? No way, not any more than Lutherns or Catholics should have been ashamed to be their religion based on the actions of Nazi Germany, nor anymore ashamed than members of the Eastern Orthodox Church were when hundreds of thousands of men women and children were being slaughtered in their name. Should all Serbs be held responsible for the Bosnian genocide? I am not a believe in collective guilt for anyone, it is for this reason that I reject anti-Semitism based on the actions of some Jews in Palestine. The above type of thinking is what leads to such evils. One group cannot and should not be vilified for the actions of a few.

    Stop the self flagilation, it does no one any good and makes no sense. I will respect your request and not post on this issue any more. No matter what you and others think I can have kind thoughts for the victims of this massacre and still be proud to be Muslim. One has nothing to do with the other. I can condemn the attacks and still question the motives and the background behind the attacks. It is this lack of inward looking that has lead us so astry since 9/11. It is this lack of critical and open think that will block the roads to dialogue and will make further violence, sadly more common the future. Lets not blame each other for where we come from, lets not indulge in nonsense self hatred, lets get done to the root causes of the violence. Lets address it, and all of the evils in all parties involved. This will never happen when one party in the talks is asked, or even willingly, partakes in self hatred.

    Again, my prayers are with the families of the deceased and the injured. My prayers are with those in foriegn countries that will pay equally because of this attack at the hands of the attackers and at the hands of the attacked.

    My tears are for those thousands that have died on 9/11 and since, and those that will die in the future, because of the insanity and hatred of a few.

    Sorry if this post bothers some of you out here. I promise it will be the last on this thread.

  • fekete
    8 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    Strav ..

    I agree with you re your apprehension of the coming UK incitement laws. Where I am not so clear is whether it is really the role of the British government to initiate and manage with the debate on religion or whether it should really be the domain of the religious leadership.

    I am not sure that the current religious leadership have the wherewithal and the vision to know what to do. I think that given the fact that there is a civil war within the religious leadership itself(militant vs spiritual), it is unlikely that the good guys are going to be able to win this one any time soon.

    So .. where now for Islam? Zarqawi’s model? The current ‘ineffective, defensive and impotent’ model? Or something new that will counterbalance the ‘dark side’?

    The jury is out. And, Moslems need to start taking responsibility. Quickly. Otherwise, identifing themsleves as Moslem will be a terrible nasty thing unless they continously qualify it with disclaimers. Much more efficient and honest to just call a spade a spade, and distance themselves significantly from the established Moslem leadership. And thereby, not allowing themselves to be used as cannon fodder for political wars that just use the ‘piety’ of the moslem as ammunition for their senseless war.

  • mahmood
    8 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik, you will never understand.

    Your only view is one that is through a convert’s zeal, missing the bigger picture.

    Step back and think about these situations fully. Don’t mix them up and justify them with another event which might or might not be related, just of the events and their perpetrators. What do you see? People grabbing for power by terror, blackmailing not just the communities they inflict their rage on directly, but indirectly and much more importantly on Islam and its adherents.

    And if we are to be true to ourselves, let us accept that Islam is at fault in its condoning of violent acts. Regardless of motive, age, or context this has come from, Muslims need to reinterpret this in unambiguous ways to condemn acts of violence in the name of Islam, rather than condoning them and explaining them off as you seem to be doing.

  • Helene
    8 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    [i]”As far as I’m concerned, when they bomb London, the bigger the better,” says Abdul Haq, the social worker. “I know it’s going to happen because Sheikh bin Laden said so. Like Bali, like Turkey, like Madrid – I pray for it, I look forward to the day.”

    I agree with you, brother,” says Abu Yusuf, the earnest-looking financial adviser sitting opposite. “I would like to see the Mujahideen coming into London and killing thousands, whether with nuclear weapons or germ warfare. And if they need a safehouse, they can stay in mine – and if they need some fertiliser [for a bomb], I’ll tell them where to get it.”[/i]
    [url=http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/londonnews/articles/10329634?version=1][b]Terror on the dole[/b][/url] — [i]20 April 2004[/i]

    [Modified by: CharlesWT (CharlesWT) on July 08, 2005 01:47 AM]

  • fekete
    8 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    Steve steve …

    My long lost friend. I was starting to miss you, you know. Malik had taken over … 😉

    I will qualify my statement about the Egyptian Ambassador not being an innocent civilian. I guess I was trying to say that at least he was an officially and publicly appointed representative of Egypt by the Government of Egypt, as opposed to the tube victims, who were not officially and publicly appointed representatives of the UK. Does that mean that he was any less innocent? no.

    However, your point about hosting foreign moslems won’t solve the problem. The issue is that the people carrying out these sensless acts of terror are not foriegn moslems. Some of them are home grown Brits. Much like the murderers who killed the Eyptian ambassador are likely to be homegrown Iraqis. What happens then? What unites the terrorists? The fact that they are acting in their perception of their national interest as defined by belonging to a state? Or the fact that they think that they are acting in their perception of their religious interest?

    oh .. and terrorism wont end. if prostitution is the oldest profession in the book, terrorism is the second. just look at the first well known terrorist .. samson and the temple .. ;). the onus is really on us, the civilized human beings of this world who beleive in humanity to deal with terrorism with dignity and with the full evolution of the human spirit. And not let them drag us down into the dirt by playing the game on their rules. Its we who have to do the work ..

  • anonymous
    8 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]True, but since when have we been expected to be oh-so-polite about, say, Stalinism or Nazism? Were Nazi atrocities okay just because Stalinism killed more people? Should we not criticise Nazism, just because other doctrines have been equally or more tyrannical and destructive? [/quote]

    Not sure what your point is – of course all destructive philosophies must be criticized, religious or otherwise.

    Aliandra

  • anonymous
    8 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]However, your point about hosting foreign moslems won’t solve the problem. The issue is that the people carrying out these sensless acts of terror are not foriegn moslems. Some of them are home grown Brits. Much like the murderers who killed the Eyptian ambassador are likely to be homegrown Iraqis. What happens then? What unites the terrorists? The fact that they are acting in their perception of their national interest as defined by belonging to a state? Or the fact that they think that they are acting in their perception of their religious interest?[/quote]

    As is almost painfully obvious by the rhetoric spewing from the Ummah regarding the religious backing of such acts, it appears as if there are a few factors in place here.

    1) Islam does NOT sell to older Immigrants. They were trying to escape it – that’s why they ended up in the West.

    2) Islam DOES sell to their children. And what kind of Islam? The rich dogmatic kind. The kind that gives them a sense of belonging. Some rock that they can trust in. It’s not unusual to find the families of immigrants struggling to find their place in a multicultural (pronounced racist) society – since radical European multiculturalism prefers to paint only a weak brush of ‘integration’ over a community, a lot of these young kids are lost in a society that does not comport to what they expect their ‘culture’ is supposed to be like. What adds fuel to the fire is the inbred hatred of ‘vice’ that many Muslim parents have. You’re not supposed to go out and party with the westerners. You should stay home and be pure. So what you see is a xenophobic family ethos, supported by a ghettoization of Muslim communities. You can see this in the US with many Muslim communities building fences around them so that no ‘infidels’ can see their women without the proper attire. *Gasp*!! It’s like women are property in Islam? Oh wait..

    3) Since Islam is now the rock by which these kids find their identity (because god forbid they are able to adventure out and discover one for themselves by *gasp* going to a church, or being individual without fear of ostricization) They become cannon fodder for the extremists who are looking for that sort of inbred radicalization.

    4) A second route is the ‘recent convert’ – who can’t possibly see anything wrong with his new worldview, and will jump through logical knots to retain that touchstone that they have found. Wether cast adrift by bad parenting, or a loss of identity, they find whatever they can hold on to for solidity, and BOOM< you have a Jose Padilla, John Lindh. All a convert needs is a push in the right direction early enough and they will do anything. (A good example is Katie Holmes and Scientology, if the other references are too distasteful).---This does not apply to every case. Of course. But the path of a Euro-Islamic-Fascist-Terrorist is so banal as to be cookie-cutter.What's darkly ironic is that these people will kill themselves for selfish reasons alone. It's not out of some true wish for an Islamic paradise on Earth. They don't even stop to think about the fact that an 'Islamic Paradise' is akin to hell for any free thinking person or female. They don't consider this. Same with the tribes of Husabiyah in Iraq who are Red-on-Red with the Jihadis. They thought that the muhajedeen were patriotic and righteous...until they started closing down shops, killing shiekhs who didn't toe the line, and demanding everyone cover their women, children, pets, pigs, music, dancing, whatever.Because God knows that fun-emotion-enjoyment-living is outlawed when the Jihadis come to roost.And these disaffected Muslim youths in the West yearn for this like rich disaffected white youths in the West yearn for Communism.BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT DEPTHS THE DEPRAVITY EVEN THE MOST 'PIOUS' MAN CAN DESCEND TO.... because kids are stupid.. and Communists/Imams know this all too well.

  • 7alaylia
    8 July 2005

    London Bombings Relief Fund

    We can ALL do something. Here is a good place to start.

    Make a donation to the London Bombings Relief Fund

    [url]http://www.redcross.org.uk//standard.asp?id=47805&cachefixer=[/url]

    Dozens of people have died and more than 700 were injured in four explosions across London on Thursday 7 July. The Mayor of London has agreed to establish with the British Red Cross the London Bombings Relief Fund to raise money for the victims and their families.

    The money raised will be held in a Trust and used to assist the victims of the attack, their immediate families and partners in a variety of ways. For example, they may be used to relieve sickness and disability, physical or mental, caused by the attack or to relieve financial needs. The money may also be used to support other appropriate projects that the funds allow.

  • anonymous
    8 July 2005

    Re(5): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Not sure what your point is – of course all destructive philosophies must be criticized, religious or otherwise.[/quote]

    My point is that every time someone mentions the millions who have died over the centuries because of religion, it shouldn’t be necessary for them to also list every other destructive ideology that’s ever existed. We can reasonably assume that anyone who’s been paying attention already knows that Nazism, Stalinism, etc racked up enormous numbers of dead. Also, it shouldn’t be used as an excuse. Just because X might have been worse than Y doesn’t mean that Y should therefore be let off the hook.

  • anonymous
    8 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    I’m flabbergasted! Why are some of you hating Malik? Saying he should shut up and his comments are disgraceful? All he says is that this attack was a cowardly attack and killing innocent lives are wrong. He is on your side aint he? Or is it that you condone these attacks and hate Malik for opposing them? I feel like i’ve taken a crazy pill here.. i see such nice loving comments about the civilians from Malik and all you say to him is to shut up?? What the F… ???

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    8 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    Aliandra: “Not sure what the motive was. It happened the day after London was chosen for the Olympics so maybe the terrorists were trying to send a message. … Or maybe they were trying to disrupt the G8 summit, though I don’t see what jihadists have against African debt relief. Least likely, some fringe anarchist groups? They are basically against everything, but they don’t seem organized enough to operate a kindergarten class.

    Aliandra, I don’t think the Wahhabis, if they were the terrorists in this case, care about any of that. This plan was set in motion long before any of those issues appeared on the public radar. It is merely coincidence that London was bombed while those events were in front of the public’s nose. The timing of the bombings were more likely set by the availability of explosives and the results of surveillance.

    J. Cofer Black, former State Department Coordinator for Counterterrorism, says that terrorists take a long time to surveil their targets. The fastest surveillance he knows about took six months. It’s more commonly years. The bombers probably started casing targets years ago and this was their first opportunity to carry it out.

    As for the probable motive: Hate. Hatred of all things non-Wahhabi.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    8 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    He says more than that, friend. Read it all again. Trying to tie the London atrocities to Iraq and Bush are not “nice loving comments.”

    Steve

  • anonymous
    8 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    Steve

    That “post” had to be made by Der Malik himself or done with his ok and a “wink” “wink”.

    Mahmood asked Malik not to post again on this thread, he ignored Mahmood’s wishes and posted anyway. Though it was something that was slighlty decent of him to post.

  • Alireza
    8 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    Its a pity that people have been too polite to ask of the boys in the article ‘If you hate Britain so much, what you doing here?”

    I really resent Ken Livingstone’s speech saying that the bombers were targetting ‘black and white’ and ‘working class people’ – the implication being that its more understandable to massacre on crowded tube trains middle class white British people.

    [Modified by: Scorpio (Scorpio) on July 08, 2005 12:51 PM]

  • anonymous
    8 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    No one “hates” Malik. But some of us would dearly like to stomp his toes, dangle him by a thread from a crane, and possibly kick his rump. Just very gently, you understand. Whilst wearing pointy boots.

    Ash

  • fekete
    8 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    Scorpio ..

    I think the implication was that they were targetting innocent civilians who were on their way to earn an honest days’ work rather than any bona fide military targets. I actually heard Ken Livingstone’s speech and loved it! It was defiant. And he told the terrorists that they would never succeed in changing the way of life in London. And that no matter how many bombs they would drop, people would still come in by the planeload to try and make a home there.

    Also, the way the British just went on with their daily lives was commendable and remarkable. Whether they were used to the war, or the IRA, or whether they were prepared for a terrorist attack … it is irrelevant. They deserve respect for being stoic and responding they way that they did with calmness and with determination. And for making the whle thing a bit of a non-event at the end of the day by showing plainly and clearly that it was a senseless attack with unnecessary loss of lives that proved .. absoltuely nothing exactly.

    As for the involvement of the Moslems… somehow I dont think that the perpetuators were Arab moslems. I think they may have been British-Asian moslems. Local to the UK. Maybe first generation. maybe with some assimilation problems. Maybe without. I may be wrong, but the explosions weren’t sophisticated enough to entail either significant amounts of money or planning or technology. Again, these are just assumptions. But – we are dealing with a certain level of amatuerism methinks. And decentralization. And this does not bode well for the future.

    The key here is that the Muslim community has GOT to develop role models that do not gain their legitimacy from terror. If it is the youth who are attracted to the role models of Zirqawi et al, and if it is Zirqawi who are dirtying the name of Islam, then it is imperative that the moslems come up with another ideology that can challenge Zirqawi’s. And fast. If any moslem is going to define him/herself as a moslem – they at this stage in the game, they need to speak up and against what is happeneing. And not distance and dissacoiate by saying that ‘these guys are a bunch of crazies’. And, I agree fully with the poster who said that if a british moslem is going to support what happened – then they should get the hell out of Britain.

    And before the moslems reading this post, (read malik) jump down my throat – let me tell you the similarities and the differences between the attacks in britain and the killing of the egyption ambassador to iraq. Both senseless. Both (probably) perpetuated by moslems in the name of Islam but really trying to address a political issue. And, what happened in iraq did not target an innocnet civilian .. but a representative of the Egyptian government. Not that it makes it any less disgusting, but it shows up even more why yesterday’s attacks in London were senseless and claimed innocent lives that did not represent anything except their desire to live their lives.

    Steve, Ethan and Malik .. (my three favorite stooges!) let me tell you what else. the terror will continue. It wont stop. however, the arena will change. it will come closer and closer to roost at ‘home’. there will be more killings of the arab and moslem street against the arab and moslem represenation of the leadership. (the killing of the egptian ambassador in iraq as an example). And the silent moslem majority are going to have to find their voice, and find it fast.

  • 7alaylia
    8 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    I did not post that comment, nor do I know who did. I think you guys are pretty laughable when you talk and accuse others of falling for conspiracy theories yet you seem gullible enough to fall for them or even come up with them yourselves.

    Mahmood can easily check to see the ISP of the person who made that post. I sure hopes he does. We differ on many issues, but I have learned that Mahmood is nothing but a just person and would easily be able to clear up this issue.

  • mahmood
    8 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    glad you’re ok jj, stay safe.

    you’re right that we don’t know yet who perpetrated these acts of terror, and they might be amateurish (which is even more worrying as it seems that the tools and the will are now available and animals like these are willing to wreak havoc anywhere) and they might be of an Asian extraction. The thing is that they most probably are Muslim, or at least now any terrorist activity could without a reasonable doubt belong to us.

    terrorism will not go away by heavy handed gerrymandering as is happening now in our immediate sphere from Iraq to Afghanistan and everywhere in between. It will be fixed by loosening the reigns of democracy, accepting accountability, complete transparency, and a complete overhaul of education, especially religious education as these lessons of hate must be replaced immediately with lessons of tolerance.

  • attig78
    8 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    Dear Mahmood,

    I just discovered your blog but I’ll certainly be following it from now on. It’s refreshing to see that there are still some arabs that can make some sense. I am for myself a (very rare, maybe the only one) atheist arab living in London and I also maintain my [url=http://emirattig/blog/]own blog[/url], and here is my [url=http://www.emirattig.com/blog/archives/2005/07/terrorism_in_lo.html]post on the attacks[/url].

    As you said,it’s a shame Islam condones violence, which it does. But the solution is not to reinterpret it, it’s to stop taking our religion seriously, just like the christians did with theirs. I don’t know what amount of reinterpretation will be needed to understand differently all the incitement to kill and fight the kafirs (infidels) found in the Koran. Instead of trying to make it say things it didn’t, why not just discard it and live by humanist secular values independently?

    Emir

    [Modified by: Emir Attig (attig78) on July 08, 2005 12:17 PM]

  • Alireza
    8 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    JJ, for once I can’t agree with you about what Ken Livingstone meant by ‘working class’. He’s a sophisticated Left wing politician and knew exactly what he was saying, and its this sort of sloppy thinking that’s indicative of why the UK in going in the wrong direction in its response to attacks like yesterday’s. The way to address extremism is as you say for a real debate about religion, but legislation currently before the British parliament is going to curtail freedom to criticise religion on the spurious grounds of protecting against ‘incitement’.

    One of the many negative consequences of the Iraq war in 2003 was that the British Labour Party has sought to win back alienated Muslim voters by listening to self appointed community leaders – usually clerics or traditional family big men – who’ve made clear that they want religion to be put on exactly the same legal standing as race in terms of the right to criticise. (The Labour Party could of course have sought to win Muslims back by taking a lead in pressurising the Israelis to respect international law re Palestinian land, but that would have meant alienating another powerful constituency, the pro-Israel lobby.)

    As with any law that restricts freedom of speech no one’s sure where the red lines are going to be and thus it’ll encourage self censorship in framing the debate about religion. Furthermore, those who couch their views in spiritual authority will now have a legal authority as well – exactly when their views need to be scrutinised. If no one’s brought to court for ridiculing clerics you can guarantee they’ll use this to feed the sense of victimhood on which these people keep community cohesion.

    One of the good things about the UK is thanks to a debate about ideas lasting hundreds of years clerics don’t going round threatening newspaper editors with death for publishing satirical cartoons or try justifying the mutilation of young girls. But instead of building on this legacy, Britain’s taking a leaf out of the Middle East’s book and going in completely the wrong direction.

  • anonymous
    8 July 2005

    Re(5): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]MALIK:The terrorists are only a symptom of the issues. The issues are real and they are political, not religious in nature.[/quote]

    Churches in Pakistan get attacked simply because their members are infidels. A Jammah Islamiya fighter who was took part in the Bali nightclub bombing said that nightclubs destroy religion. I can list a few more examples but will save the space. These are not political acts of terrrorism nor do they have anything to do with US policies. It is cultural and religious hatred of the other.

    Aliandra

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    8 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    Scorpio,

    They are in the England they hate to conquer it for Islam. They are colonists.

    Steve

  • mohd
    9 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    The Muslim community has NOT been disgracefully silent. Disgracefully, you just haven’t been listening!

    Although I don’t expect this to go far for you, as you want a fatwa, and even if you do get all the statements you want, it just may not be enough for you, now would it?

  • mahmood
    9 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik is right, the poster is from Malaysia.

  • anonymous
    9 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    The Muslim community has been disgracefully silent, and we (the non Muslim community) have been listening and the silence is deafening. A community that can whip up thousands on a phony rumor that the Koran had been flushed down a toilet (even killing people in their crazed frenzy) can’t even put together a ten person march protesting the London terrorist bombings. Where are the “Not in my name” marches by the religion that covers their women in sheets from head to toe. From Thomas Friedman of the NY Times calling the Islamic community cowardly dogs, to Paul Schmidt stating “If there isn’t a Million Muslim March this weekend, if there aren’t crowds of muslims chanting and holding signs, “not in our name”, then doubt as to the existence of moderate muslims will grow, and grow quickly. I sincerely hope I’m wrong.” The Western Press is beginning to finally print what we all have been thinking and telling our non-Muslim friends. What a cowardly religion. Shame on you. It would be nice if any of the people protesting in Pakistan actually had toilets to flush, much less a Koran to flush it down with. Poverty, ignorance, cowardice and brutality seem to pretty much sum up the religion and people that follow it. This is why the Islamic community is so isolated in the Western World, it is so disgusting that civilized people want little to do with the savages that practice this brutal calling. The truth hurts, but walk through the Islamic ghettos in Europe, filled with the freeloading scum from the Islamic world and you just want to clean the filthy stables.

  • 7alaylia
    9 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    [url]http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=8831[/url]

    Fatwas issued against bin Laden and al-Queda.

  • anonymous
    9 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    http://www.disgustingislam.com/indez.php?module

    Pictures of millions of muslims protesting against the London bombings. If you this link appears broken, then simply close your eyes and you will see the same image. Nothing. I’ll show you a unicorn when you show me thousands of muslims protesting against Bin Laden, terrorism and the killings of thousands of Muslims. On the other hand, I can easily show you thousands of pictures of protests over a Toilet bowls and the Koran. Grow up.

  • 7alaylia
    9 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]http://www.disgustingislam.com/indez.php?module [/quote]

    It is very clear this person doesnt seek peace or co-existance. The link itself says everything. There will be no peace until the communities come together. We have enough people spreading hatred, you are just another drop in the bucket.

  • Steelangel
    9 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Thanks Mahmood. Interesting that Steve has to make up a conspiracy theory to explain why someone might actually support me and not him. [/quote]

    The Arab Parallel Universe is infective.

  • anonymous
    9 July 2005

    Re(5): Terrorist attacks in London

    You can go to India and Pakistan if you seek peace or coexistance since you are male. Check out todays New York Times article by Salman Rushdie called “India and Pakistan’s Code of Dishonored” which discusses the treatment of women in Islamic cultures, citing Darul-Uloom’s rigid interpretations of Shariah law which are disgusting.

    Or as a blogger stated in Eugene Volokh’s blog page, referring to anyone that would dare state the disgusting facts about the Islamic religion as it is currently being practiced around the world “They want you dead. Report to the nearest Wahhabi mosque for processing.”

    Heh.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    9 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    DIB: “The Muslim community has NOT been disgracefully silent. Disgracefully, you just haven’t been listening! Although I don’t expect this to go far for you, as you want a fatwa, and even if you do get all the statements you want, it just may not be enough for you, now would it?”

    DIB, the link you posted is none too convincing. The Islamic sources cited therein, like Hamas, are perpetrators of terrorism. It’s not persuasive when such organizations denounce terror which is their policy. For example, how can you take an Iranian government condemnation against terror bombings when that has been the policy of their government since the revolution, when they are perpetrating terror in Iraq, and are lying about building a nuke.

    That link also posts some Western crazies calling for violence against Muslims. The difference between them and the terrorists is that the Westerners are not acting upon their lunacy. Another difference is that the Western governments do not support their lunatics as the Middle Eastern governments do.

    A careful examination of Muslim reaction to terror reveals condemnation by a few, indifference by many, passive support by most.

    Steve

    [Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on July 09, 2005 04:28 PM]

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    9 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    From Charles Moore in the Opinion.Telegraph (Great Britain)
    http://www.opinion.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/07/09/do09.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2005/07/09/ixopinion.html

    “It is only when you start thinking about what we are not getting from leaders of British Muslims, and indeed Muslim religious leadership throughout the world, that you start to see how much needs doing. The moderates are not pressed hard for anything more than a general condemnation of the extremists.”

    “When did you last hear criticisms of named extremist groups and organisations by Muslim leaders, or support for their expulsion, imprisonment or extradition? How often do you see fatwas issued against suicide bombers and other terrorists, or statements by learned men declaring that people who commit such deeds will go to hell?”

    “When do Muslim leaders and congregations insist that a particular imam leave his mosque because of the poison that he disseminates every Friday? When did a British Muslim last go after a Muslim who advocates or practises violence with anything like the zeal with which so many went after Salman Rushdie?”

    “Why is not more stigma attached to the Muslims who are murdering other Muslims every day in Iraq and the Middle East?”

    “What communal protection is offered to those Muslims who really are brave and confront Islamist violence, or the poor treatment of women, or call for democracy in the Middle East? How much do mainstream political parties with Muslim councillors and candidates really insist on their religious moderation and co-opt them to extrude the bad people lurking within their communities?”

    “I understand and accept that there are many moderates among British Muslims, but I want to know why Britain gets so pitifully little to show for their moderation.”

  • anonymous
    9 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    There will be a vigil tomorrow evening outside the British Embassy in Bahrain, to express our disgust of what happened in London. I’ll have some photos on my site hopefully.

    Maybe the Muslim communities around the world are not being loud enough… but they are not silent.

    -chan’ad

  • 7alaylia
    9 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Malik is right, the poster is from Malaysia. [/quote]

    Thanks Mahmood. Interesting that Steve has to make up a conspiracy theory to explain why someone might actually support me and not him.

    Anyways Mahmood, just and fair as usual, I appreciate it.

  • sashoor
    9 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    In response to the so called Al Qaeda taking responsibility as they congratulate the Arab Nation.

    How dare they take the name of God, the most merciful, the most compassionate in terrorist, fanatic, non peaceful acts such as these?! It gives me great grieve to witness what has happened today in London. However, it gives me even more pain and grief to read what this lunatic is raving about! “God’s peace”, does he and the other lunatics in his clan realize what God’s peace is all about??

    Does he realize that “God” is The same God that Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed Peace be upon them all speak about??? Does he fathom that the three heavenly religions of the Jews, Christians and Muslims alike are from the same one above? Allah, God, Havaya, are all the same Holy One, the creator, the divinity, the deity.

    And what in God’s name is a blessed raid?? How can anything so barbaric be blessed??? Let alone, linked to a God that is so merciful and loving. A God that is “Peace”!

    “Zionist Crusaders” ?? Wake up we are in the twenty-first century! Does this imbecile realize that of all places, Britain, harbours and opens refuge to hundreds of thousands of Arab and Muslim exiles and refugees?? Does this mad hatter understand that whilst all his “claimed” Arab and Muslim brethren sit on fences all over the world. It is the tax paying pounds of these “Zionist Crusaders” that keep these refugees of despotic rule alive and free?

    Even if he has a point to make about the atrocities committed against fellow innocent Iraqis, How does he solve this? By killing more innocent people? By causing more bloodshed? Does he not realize that Britain is home to thousands and thousands maybe even millions of Arabs and Muslims? Why does he not ask for the aid of the Arab and Muslim leaders and urge them to solve the problem in Iraq peacefully? He doesn’t care about the Arabs and Muslims dying in Iraq. If he did why didn’t they do anything when thousands and thousands were killed in massacares during the rule of despotic Saddam???

    I am a student of the United Kingdom and it makes me sick that people claiming to be me, an “Arab Muslim” are claiming to rejoice by attacking a nation that has contributed to us immensely and to which we should be grateful to. Be it for its foreign aid, our education, and its embarking unto abolishing poverty all around the world. Why are these terrorists speaking on behalf of us?

    Whoever this lunatic may be, whatever his background, whatever his motives, I hope people realize that this is not the teachings of Islam nor is it the way of the Arabs who are in reality celebrated for being a hospitable, peace loving, generous nation.

    Congratulating the Arab Nation? I don’t think so. I think we should be offered condolences.

    Ashoor

  • anonymous
    9 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    agreed mahmood. and if u read the FT, they have asked that the G8 hold middle eastern leaders accountable for their leadership … this is going to be itneresting …

    JJ

  • 7alaylia
    10 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Malik i think the problem is that you said the things you did on the very day of the bombing when people might not have even known if their friends and family were safe. Now a few days have passed things are cooling a little but then there was immediate shocked anger. For the record most of the things malik has said are shared by a whole sector of British society (and i dont mean just muslims) but i would agree that the timing was insensitive.
    Anyway, this is a long post for a stranger to make. Interesting blog, ill check on it again.
    Thanks,
    N.R. Mackay, Proud Londoner. [/quote]

    Thanks for your insite NR, much appreciated. I got the same impression in the years I lived in the UK. I love the country and it is sad that it had to happen there. Cheers, all the best.

  • mahmood
    10 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    Regarding the “silence,” you might have been correct on previous incidents, but not this time. Desert Island Boy showed us a whole list of denunciations from Muslim leaders all over the world, read them for yourself here and I have also shown that unlike previous trends, highly regarded muslim leaders all over the Middle East have condemned these attacks unequivocally.

    You can’t play that card again.

    The tremendous pressure put on our rulers AND clerics have clearly borne fruit this time. And we shouldn’t let our guard down, we should continue to push for reforms.

  • mahmood
    10 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    Not true Steve. From my personal observation, this time, the Muslim world has been unanymous in its IMMEDIATE and unhesitant condemnation of these terror attacks AND terrorists, even though their identity are not known yet.

    I can feel an optimistic change happening in our communities. And about time too. The pressure put on them (the clergy and governments) over the past few years have been tremendous and I feel that pressure’s fruit has finally been borne.

  • chalk66x
    10 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    Give us a break. DIB and others who post arent terrorists just people who have different views from you.

    billT

  • anonymous
    10 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    Mahmood Al-Yousif- Thank you for your wise words and show of sympathy, i agree with you on the importance of education (although that is a rather long term solution). London will forge ahead i am sure of that.

    Good posts by jasra-jedi, Ashoor and some others. One poster (Steve) stated somewhere that no muslims died in the attack. Just to get the facts straight, last time i checked there was -at least- one muslim missing (presumed dead im afraid) maybe others, this was reported on what i think was quite a good front page of The Sun newspaper. No doubt many were wounded.There were also muslims amongst the doctors who saw to the wounded and in the emergency services. To my mind those are the muslim role-models.

    The mainstream Islamic organisations have provided more public condemnation for this attack than i actually expected(in the UK and throughout the world). I have however also noticed those who equivocate in wholeheartedly condemning the bombings (judging by some of the Al Jazeera articles i read on this), and some strange reactions ,like the conspiracy theories and the reading of anti-muslim themes into what Tony Blair said after the bombing. Which couldnt be further from the truth. The response by the authorities so far seems reassuringly calm and measured. Hopefully this will bring British people together, muslims included, and ostracise the minority who seek to legitimise the criminal acts of thursday.

    Malik i think the problem is that you said the things you did on the very day of the bombing when people might not have even known if their friends and family were safe. Now a few days have passed things are cooling a little but then there was immediate shocked anger. For the record most of the things malik has said are shared by a whole sector of British society (and i dont mean just muslims) but i would agree that the timing was insensitive.

    Anyway, this is a long post for a stranger to make. Interesting blog, ill check on it again.

    Thanks,
    N.R. Mackay, Proud Londoner.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    10 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    NR,

    Just to keep things straight, I was pointing out that London Muslims were claiming to be victims of a coming British backlash when in fact no backlash had occurred and no Muslims had been harmed. My point was that it is insufferable for Muslims to claim to be victims of the British the very second dozens of British were killed and hundreds wounded by what is probably a Muslim attack. It turns the truth on its head.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    10 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    Chan’ad,

    The Muslim community is indeed being loud. We hear their bombs clearly. I wonder when the next Muslim bomb will go off on the Washington, DC Metro I ride to work every day.

    I’d be very interested to see if a demonstration against terrorism can draw a crowd from a Muslim community. It has not to date. A demonstration against terrorism by local Muslims here in DC could only draw fifty Muslims and the criticism of the Muslim community. Fifty is one third the number of Muslims arrested in America for terror-related charges. I’d be very interested to see if the number of Muslims in Britain willing to publicly demonstrate against terror outnumbers the victims of the latest terror attack.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    10 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    Mahmood,

    Why do Muslim rulers and clerics require outside pressure to take a stand against the slaughter of innocents?

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    10 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik: “http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=8831
    Fatwas issued against bin Laden and al-Queda. ”

    Malik,

    Your link does not mention bin Laden nor Al Qaeda, as you claim, let alone mention any fatwa against either. The Muslim clerics assembled denounced the killing of other Muslims, not infidels.

    Do you think we won’t check these links, Malik?

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    10 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    Ethan,

    You can convince me by naming one country on the planet where Muslims have established a community without making war on their hosts.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    10 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Not true Steve. From my personal observation, this time, the Muslim world has been unanymous in its IMMEDIATE and unhesitant condemnation of these terror attacks AND terrorists, even though their identity are not known yet.
    I can feel an optimistic change happening in our communities. And about time too. The pressure put on them (the clergy and governments) over the past few years have been tremendous and I feel that pressure’s fruit has finally been borne. [/quote]

    Thanks Mahmood and Bill. The reaction from the Muslim community world wide has been something great and long in coming. What we must realise is that there are some out there for which ANY move will not be seen as enough. For some there is NOTHING that could be said by anyone in the Muslim community that would change their minds.

    As a member of the Muslim community I certain can see the change in people’s minds and opinions as these outrages increase. Insha’Allah we will all see the day where millions take to the streets in Pakistan, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the like to demand that these acts not be done in their name.

    Until then I am happy and glad things are moving in the direction that they are even though some refuse to accept and acknowledge it.

    Blogs like yours do several things Mahmood besides enjoyment. It shows the world that Muslims have a wide variety of view points. Not all Muslims are the same, nor should they be. On this blog we see from the semi-radical to the pretty radical liberal, which is great, that is what the Muslim community is really like. We see all sorts of opinions from those in the West, from the very anti-Islamic and Arab to those who understand and sympathise with both of the former.

    Blogs like this are part of the solution to the problem faced in the Muslim world, and wider world, today. How many people reading this blog, and one’s like it, have learned all sorts of stuff about different peoples and religions that they never knew before? How many stereotypes have blogs like this dispelled? If our age of the wealth of information no one has an excuse to be poor.

    I was very inspired to watch the scenes of religious services held in the UK that included Jews, Muslims, Christians and other faiths. Our future rests in realising how much we have in common. These terrorists seek to polarise us.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    10 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    Give me a break. I have not said DIB is a terrorist, as you claim. What I am saying is that the Islamic organizations he cites as denouncing terror are not credible when they have a history of pursuing their objectives with terror. It’s like quoting Al Capone denouncing mob violence.

    While rational, civilized Muslims such as DIB sensibly object to Islamic terror, he, unfortunately, does not represent the mainstream of the Muslim world, which has little or no objection to Islamic imperialism pursued by bloody atrocities.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    10 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    With great sadness we receive the bad news about the London Attacks.

    Great Britain is some thing different for all of us it represent fair, justice and most systematic nation which all human bean around the world learn from

    Gad gives patient to the hearted families and we will put all our hands together to say that will be Free Human, democratic and you want bring us back to your bloody system.

    Hamad

  • anonymous
    10 July 2005

    Re(5): Terrorist attacks in London

    Steve

    You need to correct you statement. DIB isn’t a civilized Muslim Steve. I let you figure the rest out.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    10 July 2005

    The Life Of An Unbeliever Has No Value

    Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad of London, as quoted in lexpress.mu in an April 20, 2004 article, in which he predicts a large attack against London:

    ““It’s inevitable. Because several attacks are being prepared by several groups,â€? Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad told Lisbon’s Publica magazine from London where he is based. One “very well organisedâ€? group in London calling itself al Qaeda Europe “has a great appeal for young Muslimsâ€?, he said. “I know that they are ready to launch a big operation.â€? ”

    ” “We don’t make a distinction between civilians and non-civilians, innocents and non-innocents. Only between Muslims and unbelievers. And the life of an unbeliever has no value. It has no sanctity.â€? ”

    “If we give money to needy women and children, they say they are the families of terrorists. But where do the terrorists come from? Zimbabwe? No. They are people from here. And they are our brothers, the terrorists.�

    “The British also are terrorists, in Iraq…Terrorism is the law of the 21st century. It’s legitimate.â€?

    “Asked about his comments that he wanted to have the banner of Islam at 10 Downing Street, Muhammad said, “Yes, it’s my dream. I believe one day that is going to happen. Because this is my country, I like living here.â€? ”

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    10 July 2005

    Re(6): Terrorist attacks in London

    I disagree. The majority of the regular posters here are decent, civilized people, including DIB.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    10 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    Hmmmm …

    Wasn’t this the exact same arguement that was used in germany against the Jews when justifying the ghettoization policy?

    Steve .. be careful abotu generalizations. And more important, be wise and mature. Dont take the easy way out and lump all moslems into ‘evil’ and all non moslems into ‘good’. Your policy will perpetuate hatred. Learn to read between the lines .. and, learn from the British response … They were colonialists before pax americana, and reled the world, and the region, quite effectively as well. Take a page from their book. read their press, and their analysis of what is happening in the ME.

    And be careful about pointing fingers .. lets all remember that the CIA was partially responsible for turning ‘political islam’ into a great weapon agasint the godless russians ..

    JJ

  • anonymous
    10 July 2005

    Re(7): Terrorist attacks in London

    but .. is he , or aint he, a moslem??

    JJ

  • anonymous
    10 July 2005

    Steve??!!

    What on earth are you trying to prove? That Islam has some idiots? Who are murderers? That they exist? That they kill? that they need to be defeated? I think MOST of the people on this blog would agree with you….

    But – what are you trying to do? Incite anger so that people are pushed to extremes? Grow the f**k up. Seriously. People have posted strong moslem condemnations of what happened. There is a dialogue happeneing that is gorwing louder and louder within Islam. Read the bloody Financial Times and you will see a great article in it. The British press covering the issues, a mere 3 days after a terrorist attack. Not trying to take the intellectually lazy way out by painting people into absolutes.

    Don’t be arrogant. And don’t incite hatred and absolutes. Grow up – realize that there are some habits that are longer than the age of your beloved country – that hisotry takes time to change. that every religion has its issues and growing pains. That some of the worst crimes are committed in the name of religion. And that people have to work through it and evolve.

    if you attack from the outside – people will get defensive. Do you really want to get into a whole useless discussion of how islam is a religion on peace? or, are you just really upset because it looks like the perpetuators might actually be british asians who have no direct relationship to your favorite enemy, saudi arabia??????????

    JJ

  • anonymous
    10 July 2005

    Re(8): Terrorist attacks in London

    If DIB is a Muslim then I must be one too. Problem is why do I keep going to Church instead of a Mosque?? I mean I know the two are almost next door to each other in Manama but have I been going to the wrong place? HELP!!!!

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]JASRA: And, for better or for worse, Iraq unleashed it all into the open.[/quote]

    I think you hit the nail right on the head with this statement.

    Aliandra

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]We must ban all muslims from coming to Europe” because thats what the voters will want to hear.[/quote]

    I think Europe would be wise to cease all immigration until they assimilate the immigrants they have.

    Aliandra

  • 7alaylia
    11 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]The solution which is unspeakable to any muslim, is a revamping of the religion. Pure and simple. People have to seriously look at Islam and see why it is so unclear a faith that people justify everything from Terror, to spousal abuse, to rape with Islam. They will fight with you to the point of death (yes we’ve seen this already) that Islam supports this kind of Jihad. Who is telling them this? Are they all crazy? [/quote]

    Yes, and there are Jewish settlers getting ready to battle their Israeli Defense Forces to the death for a small strip of land in Gaza. Why not condemn Judaism for this? Jews have brutally occupied a foreign people for 50 years, yet I doubt you would level the same accusations at them would you? Today are the commemorations for the 10th aniversery for the massacre of 8,000+ Muslim men and boys at Srbrenicia. Would you try to say that Christianity should be remade because of this? How about the hundreds of thousands killed in The Inquistion? Why is Islam the only religion that must change itself because of current of past fanatics?

    Any major religion has such major differences as to make justification of almost anything possible. In Ethiopia, in one of the oldest Christian communities in the world, Christian women cannot enter their church during their menses, have to veil themselves, and sit on the opposite side of the church from the men. Doesnt sound like a Baptist revival in Alabama does it? Christianity has been used to justify all sorts of things, again, no call for an end to be put to it or to completely change it.

    “Suicide terrorism is not so much committed by religious fanatics looking for a quick trip to paradise as it is by a variety of secular and religious individuals who fear that their societies will be unalterably transformed by a religiously motivated occupier,” says Pape, who was sought out last week by CNN and Fox in the wake of the London terrorist attacks.”
    [url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/09/AR2005070901425.html[/url]

    [quote]BTW, I am not generalising. Remember for every one bomber there is some kind of support network. Yes, there are millions of muslims in the States, and a lot of them quietly applaud these attacks. Lets say not all of them. Lets say 30%. Ok. fine. We’ll half that. Lets say 15%. You know this to be true. There are so many neo-wahabbi fanatics in the west. So many so-called Imams and Sheikhs that call the very people that feed them, Nijis, unclean, and say that killing their men and raping their women is halal. [/quote]

    The numbers you talk about are MUCH MUCH smaller. I am an active part of the Muslim community in the US, in the DC area particularly, although I have experience in the Muslim community here in Phoenix, California, Washington state and Oregon as well as in Europe. I would put the number of Muslims here willing to support terrorists at 1%, if that. I have listened to some I would suspect would be this sort and I have never even heard them claim that raping anyone is halal. This is just outright rhetoric on your part.
    [quote]The question that should be asked is this:-
    Why is it that a man born in the west, supported by the west (in terms of welfare, schooling, etc) feels the need lash out at what he deems to be “western civilisation” (actually its MODERN civilisation) in a terribly violent fashion? What justifies this behaviour in his mind?”[/quote]

    I think you have it entirely wrong. You are functioning on the assumption that the people who do this attacks do so based on some sort of hatred of the west, the civilisation, you name it. Some of that might be involved, but these people are driven to action by hatred of Western, particularly, American policy. They have clear political goals in mind that are often couched in religious terms. But if you are a Muslim, as you claim, you will be well aware that people are not going to go blow themselves up to create a world caliphat. That is why bin Laden doesnt really sell his struggle based on those terms. His selling points are US troops in the Gulf, Israelis in Palestine, US support for dictators. If he sold his struggle solely on creating a world Islamic empire he’d have about half a dozen recruits.

    [quote]One last thing. Lets keep something in perspective. The Tamils did not kill for Hinduism. They killed for their ethinic right to self rule. Every bombing that happens, from Spain, London, Istanbul, India, etc, etc. Is done to “promote” Islam. [/quote]

    The Tamil Tigers identity is deeply rooted in their religion. If you are not aware of this you are not aware of the struggle there. I was lucky enough to be a good friend with a Tamil, who happened to me Muslim. Her name was Fawzia and she made it clear to me that there is a very religious nature in the Tamil(Hindu) struggle against the Buddhist majority. Every bombing you talk about has more to do with real world politics than anything else. Do something to help address these issues and the terrorism problem and its recruits would dwindle to nothing.
    [quote]Tell me sir, what is your take on the rationale behind this. Can you tell me in an unbiased neutral fashion what goes on in the mind of a young devout muslim as he gets into a bus with tons of explosive ready to kill all the people with him? Whats going on in his mind?[/quote]

    Never having known one I can only surmise based on my knowledge and interaction with people I would describe as radical Salafee. In his mind would be the images of the oppression of Palestinians in Palestine. It would be US troops in the Gulf, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Saudi Arabia. It would be the Saudi royal family soiling the “Land of the Two Holy Shrines” with their greed and corruption. It would be the wedding party in Iraq, 30 plus people, bombed by the US, who then at first denies the attack then claims the wedding was really a terrorist gathering. It would be the house bombed by US jets in Afghanistan this weekend killing the whole family. It would be the billions of dollars going to Israel, Egypt and Jordan. It would be hundreds of Muslims slaughtered by a pro-American government in Uzbekistan and its US supported dictator who boils his opposition alive. There is no “unbiased and neutral” fashion to explain what is going on in such a person’s mind. It is pure hatred, hatred of policies and actions, not tube tops and beer at 7-Elevens in the USA.

    [Modified by: Malik (celticview) on July 11, 2005 08:33 AM]

  • 7alaylia
    11 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]We must ban all muslims from coming to Europe” because thats what the voters will want to hear.
    I think Europe would be wise to cease all immigration until they assimilate the immigrants they have.
    Aliandra[/quote]

    This cannot happen if Europe wants to have any chance of remaining competitive in the global economy. Many, if not most Western European nations actually have a falling birth rate, excluding immigrants and their communities. Excluding immigrants would be economic suicide for any country that decided to do so.

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    Mahmood,

    Here is a link to an interview broadcast last Thursday, after the London bombings, on Channel 1 of Egyptian TV in which Egyptian government officials deny any possible link between such terror and Islam.

    Mustafa Fiqi, chairman, of the Egyptian Parliament foreign affairs committee, poohs poohs the idea that Muslims could be terrorists and introduces the idea that it could be Jews or Christians bombing London: “There are terrorists in every religion and nationality. Perhaps, by chance, there are Muslims who carry out some of the terrorist operations at this stage, but Jews carried out terrorist operations in the past, and Christians have carried out terrorist operations as well. No religion has a monopoly on terrorism.”

    General Ahmad Abd Al-Halim of the Egyptian Council of Foreign Affairs chimed in to helpfully explain that it’s not Muslims at all perpetrating terror, but European terrorist organizations from the 1980s, revived and working in disguise as Al Qaeda: “There are many extremist groups. We’ve all heard of Bader-Meinhof. We’ve all heard of the Red Brigades, the Red Army, and many other groups. Even if we don’t hear about these groups in the media, we can’t exclude them. It’s possible that these groups operate today under the guise of Al-Qaeda, and it’s attributed to Al-Qaeda, and there is a communiqué saying that Al-Qaeda and so on. These organizations exist in many countries. As we said, we’re talking about a decentralized organization and they are operating under the name of… and they publish a communiqué stating that it was Al-Qaeda that carried out this operation.”

    The denial in the Muslim world is deep and as these quotes demonstrate, institutionalized. That’s why it is necessary to put the facts on the table and shine a big spotlight on them to make equivocation and evasion painful.

    Steve

  • 7alaylia
    11 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    Yes, you can be selective and come up with nonsense. No one said that there was nothing to work on, rather that things in this department are getting better and that idiots like this do not speak for the rest of us. For every one you give us, we can give you one back. Be part of the solution Steve, not part of the problem:

    “Middle East Condemns London Bombings
    The world recoiled in shock after bombs tore through London’s transport system killing at least 37 people in a coordinated rush-hour attack. A group calling itself the Organization of Al-Qaeda Jihad in Europe claimed responsibility for the bombings and threatened similar attacks in Italy, Denmark and other countries with troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Messages of sympathy and condolences poured in from Middle Eastern nations, some of them all too familiar with street bloodshed.

    Iran and Syria joined an unbroken chorus of condemnation, as did the Palestinian Authority, the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas and Lebanon’s Hizbullah.

    “The use of violence to achieve aims is condemned,” Iranian Foreign Ministry spokes-man Hamid Reza Asefi said.

    Syrian President Bashar Assad, in a message to Prime Minister Tony Blair, condemned “these detested acts.”

    Hamas said that there could be no justification for the London bombings.

    “Targeting civilians in their transport means and lives is denounced and rejected,” Moussa Abu Marzouk, deputy chief of the group’s political bureau, told Reuters in Damascus.

    The Palestinian Authority denounced the attacks and conveyed its “sincere condolences to the British people and government,” Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said.

    Lebanon, where bomb blasts this year sparked memories of its bloody civil war, expressed sympathy. President Emile Lahoud said his country “shares with the British their pain.”

    A Hizbullah statement on the blasts denounced such attacks on civilians, citing humanitarian, moral and religious grounds.

    Leading Lebanese Shiite scholar Mohammad Hussein Fadlallah voiced outrage.

    “These crimes are not accepted by any religion. It is a barbarism wholly rejected by Islam,” he said.(MORE)

    [url]http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=14642[/url]

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    Dear Steve
    Stop giving yourself the credited of waking us Muslims up, we definitely don’t need people who are racists to tell us what to do! And remember my dear boy, that terrorism is pressure unleashed, I’m absolutely against what happened in London, but Muslims are the only one being used as scapegoats here.

    Another criticism I have that has been boiling inside me since yesterday, is how many civil societies in Bahrain wanted out for a “candle lit vigil” in front of the British embassy to show their respect for those killed in the terrorist attacks in London, well and good and very romantic. But how come none of you stood up or even said a word when people in iraq are being massacred everyday like sheep by US and British soldiers? Why didn’t anyone say anything when the Holy Quran was desecrated by American interrogators in F****** Guantanamo, where were your beautiful scented candle for the children and people of Palestine who are being silently killed, physically and emotionally by the f****** israelis?
    and for your information we have an iraqi embassy and a palestinian embassy, and i would love to see you lot protesting peacefully before them!

    AS

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Iran and Syria joined an unbroken chorus of condemnation, as did the Palestinian Authority, the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas and Lebanon’s Hizbullah.

    [/quote]

    Laughable.

    Aliandra

  • 7alaylia
    11 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    When I took at a look at the reference you used I thought it looked familiar. I get the e-mails from them as well. Here are some snippets you left out from the very same page:


    Many Arab leaders condemned the London bombings. Syrian President Bashar Al-Assad sent a letter to British Prime Minister Tony Blair expressing his condemnation of “these abhorrent operations that we condemn in the most serious manner possible.” [4]

    Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) issued a communiqué in which he said that he “harshly condemns the abhorrent crimes that caused the death of innocent civilians, and sends condolences on his behalf and on behalf of the Palestinian leadership and the Palestinian people to the families of the victims, and to the people and government of Britain.” [5]
    Saudi Ambassador to Washington Prince Bandar bin Sultan also condemned the attacks, and noted that the Saudi people had also “been the victim of terror operations” and that “this criminal attack is a reminder to us all that no country is immune to terrorism.” [7]

    Condemnation of the bombings was also heard from senior clerics and officials in the religious establishments in Arab countries. Al-Azhar Sheikh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi denounced the bombings, telling http://www.islamonline.net < http://www.islamonline.net/> [8]: “Those responsible for London attacks are criminals who do not represent Islam or even truly understand (its message).” He also condemned the killing of civilians, including women and children, “without differentiating between combatants and non-combatants.”

    Sheikh Yousef Al-Qaradhawi, spiritual leader of the Muslim Brotherhood movement and the head of the European Council for Fatwa and Research, told http://www.islamonline.net < http://www.islamonline.net/> [9] that he condemned the bombings in London: “We were dumbfounded by the grave news which surprised us, and all the world today, about the bombings that took place in the city of London, that killed dozens and wounded hundreds of innocent people who attacked no one and had committed no crime to remove the immunity of their blood.”

    Leading Lebanese Shiite scholar Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah told Reuters: “These crimes are not accepted by any religion. It is a barbarism wholly rejected by Islam.” [10]

    The leader of the Muslim Brotherhood movement, [11] Muhammad Mahdi ‘Akef, condemned the London bombings, calling them “a criminal act that no law, and even no religion, recognizes.” The communiqué stated, “The spread of the culture of violence and terror, and the increase in pressure on the international level, are the direct consequence of the lawbreaking, violation of treaties and international conventions, and repression of the peoples by the American leadership and the British government.”

    The leader of the Muslim Brotherhood movement in Syria, ‘Ali Sadr Al-Din Al-Bayanouni, condemned the London bombings: “These are terror operations that harm innocent civilians and constitute a crime against humanity, and we condemn them. Islam completely forbids harm to a life, and sees it as harm to all humanity. The Muslim Brotherhood movement in Syria strongly condemns these bombings, and their perpetrators, whoever they may be, and demands that their identity be exposed and that they be given the most deterring of punishments. The movement calls on the Arab and Islamic community in Britain to awaken and to cooperate in preventing crimes like these, which harm all of society and arouse fear and concern within it.” [12]

    Columnist for the London Arabic Daily Al-Hayat Calls on Arabs to Help the U.S. in the War on Terror
    Columnist for the London Arabic daily Al-Hayat Jihad Al-Khazen, who often attacks the American administration and U.S. policy, wrote:”The Arabs and Muslims, from amongst whom has emerged most of the terrorism since September 11, must head the counter-terrorism efforts. We are responsible for this terrorism before the others, and thus we are responsible for resisting it, and the effort required [on our part] begins by not denying our responsibility for it…
    “More than once I have written [this], and today too I write that the Arabs and Muslims must help the U.S. and leave the running of the war on terror to it… ”

  • Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Perhaps excluding Chinese or Indian immigrants would hurt our competitive position, but not Arab Muslims. There are good reasons to outsource work to China and India and to set up IT shops there but there aren’t any good reasons to outsource work to the Middle East and set up IT shops there. At least in the IT world, you can pretty much write off the Middle East without it having any effect on your competitiveness.
    That said, I don’t support banning Arab Muslims from immigrating to the West. The immigration needs to be restricted more, though. We can’t give Saudis a speed pass through immigration as we have. We need to cherry pick the good people as best we can.
    The goal of immigration should be to help integrate the Middle East into the world economy, like the Chinese and Indians. That means they need to develop the human capital that now lays fallow, which in turn means abandoning resistance to change which means the reform of Middle Eastern culture and, most of all, Islam.
    Steve[/quote]

    Steve, the talk was about Europe, not the US. If Europe banned Muslim immigrants, or as Aliandra said, just stopped immigration altogether, it could not last on the economic market as European communities, population wise, are in decline. As to Saudis getting a “speed pass” through immigration, I would wonder how many Saudis you know? I can tell you they most certainly do not get a speed pass through immigration in ANY western country, let alone the USA.

    Trust me Steve, if you are involved in the IT business as you claim, you are well aware that a sizeable chunk of foreign born IT workers in the US are from Muslim countries or backgrounds, especially if we start talking about people with Electrical Engineering degrees rather than the easier Computer Science degrees.

  • Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Not true Steve. From my personal observation, this time, the Muslim world has been unanymous in its IMMEDIATE and unhesitant condemnation of these terror attacks AND terrorists, even though their identity are not known yet. [/quote]

    I actually have to agree with Mahmood on this. This time there has been condemnation – and a larger percentage did not include the equivalence term ‘but – Britain and America have been killing Iraqis’

    However, there are still those who will support terror or conspiracy theories – read these on this link:
    http://freethoughts.splinder.com/post/5250515

    What kind of solution can be proposed to fight that kind of brainless mash? You cannot paint all Muslims with a broad brush – but what percentage of them decry the horror? What percentage of that are willing to decy the named groups themselves? What percentage of those would be willing to face the root causes? What percentage know the correct root causes? How many are selfless enough to stand up to 1400 years worth of Jihad ideology risking their and their families’ extrajudicial murder at the hands of any fanatic with clerical permission?

    There’s no -one- who can stop the ideology of terror. It has to be repudiated from the ground up.

    But if the Islamic Martin Luther or Ghandi can be killed because God commands so .. who can lead the reformation? Every mass movement needs a leader, and right now the loudest Islamist critics, like Baat Ye’or or Ali Sina .. are not Muslim. Malik pretends to be critical, but his words are marked with buts and ifs and blindness. Others who are openly critical, like Rushdie or Hirsi Ali flee for their lives behind anonymnity.

    It’s one thing to call for the separation of Mosque and State, Mahmood – but how does one implement that globally when the Mosque demands marriage to the State, and the State fears the Mosque’s power?

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]MALIK:Actually, it is much easier and cheaper to have children in Europe than it is in the USA. [/quote]

    That’s NOT what my European relatives are telling me. They cite expense, expense, expense!

    [quote]Children are given free school from begining to end, compliments of the state. [/quote]

    Schooling is never free. Like here, it is taxpayer supported.

    aliandra

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    I guess what I’m trying to say, my dear Aliandra, is that Muslims cannot be blamed for everything that goes wrong, If I were to go on line and say I did it, who can deny it? who can confirm it? Don’t tell me that Arabs and Muslims are responsible for every bombing that goes on in the world, and even if they are, cutey, there probably is a reason, justified or not, whether its political pressure, brainwashing, religion looked at from the wrong angle or even just blind hatred or ethnocentrism, I think the west have finally found a great scapegoat to hang their bloody mistakes on (Iraq war just an example) — people who have tape on their mouths, go listen to the news sweetheart, Iraqis are being killed EVERYDAY and none of the so-called “advanced” countries ever did anything, even regarding the Darfur conflict, does the word “poverty” and “ignorance” ring a bell? or the word “power” ? … not just the fact that they are Arabs or Muslims…. rest assured that any moderate muslim has no feelings of anymosity for any other religion ,, but it is the atrocities being committed by people like US and UK soldiers or Israelis that makes us rage…

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    Mahmood,
    where were your tears and your condolences when Israelis kill Palestinians and Americans kill Iraqis?

    AS

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik

    Again please get your facts correct. The Tamil Tigers are not the most prolific suicide bombers. At one time yes. Wracking up 200 or so. Not anymore. This more dribble from you. In fact the Tamil Tigers have been mostly silent since Dec 2001 ceasefire and it looks like they are running out of human rsources anyway.

    I suggest you don’t ever claim I wrote words or agreed with you when I didn’t. That is another sleezy ploy you try to do as well.

  • 7alaylia
    11 July 2005

    Re(5): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Quote:
    MALIK:Actually, it is much easier and cheaper to have children in Europe than it is in the USA.
    That’s NOT what my European relatives are telling me. They cite expense, expense, expense![/quote]

    I was born in Europe and worked over there for years. My relatives, who certainly conform to the 1 child per couple average, have said that money isnt the issue. They make enough and whatever is lacking is covered by the state. The whole issue is culture. Family, on a cultural level, is just loosing any attractiveness to people. People are still taking their month long vacations, still spending lots of money, just not on kids. They are spending it on themselves. The priorities are changing.

    If having kids or not was based on how expensive they are or on a lack on money there would not be so many children coming from the poorer nations in Europe. Look at Ireland, a good example. When they had less money they had MORE children. Now that the “Celtic Tiger” has taken off, they have more money and LESS kids. You’ll find that all over Western Europe, and see it emerging in Eastern Europe. The more money you have, the less children you have.

    [quote]Children are given free school from begining to end, compliments of the state.
    Schooling is never free. Like here, it is taxpayer supported.
    aliandra[/quote]

    Of course, and you pay these taxes whether or not you have children. So people with children are not it harder than those without. Like I said, many countries have very generous monthly stipends trying to encourage people to have children. It isnt working because it is not economics keeping people from having them.

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote] MALIK: the images of the oppression of Palestinians in Palestine. It would be US troops in the Gulf, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Saudi Arabia. It would be the Saudi royal family soiling the “Land of the Two Holy Shrines” with their greed and corruption. It would be the wedding party in Iraq, 30 plus people, bombed by the US, who then at first denies the attack then claims the wedding was really a terrorist gathering. It would be the house bombed by US jets in Afghanistan this weekend killing the whole family. It would be the billions of dollars going to Israel, Egypt and Jordan. It would be hundreds of Muslims slaughtered by a pro-American government in Uzbekistan and its US supported dictator who boils his opposition alive[/quote]

    Malik, Malik, Malik … You keep bringing up the same old BS. The biggest killers of Muslims are other Muslims, not the US or its allies.

    Here’s a quick run-down of recent history …

    Algerian civil war – about 500,000 dead.
    Lebanese Civil war: 100,000 dead, about a million people displaced.
    Darfur: 400,000 dead.
    Syria: 20,000 – 40,000 civilians slaughtered by the Syrian government in Hama
    Saddam Hussain: Upwards of 500,000 people dead
    Iraq: Hundreds of civilians being killed by bombs and suicide bombers (most of whom are Saudi)

    The terrorists’ anger is a bit mis-directed, don’t you think? The countries that are hostile to the US, like Libya and Syria, are no less oppressive than those who aren’t. The terrorists don’t have a problem with murder,mayhem, and oppression – they have a problem when non Muslims are perceived to be doing it

    Aliandra

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    Aliandra

    You know Malik is just going to once again blame this on the US and its “policies”. The point is there is no point in having any dialouge with him unless it is to correct his “misinformations”. Then I think even that is becoming pointless.

  • 7alaylia
    11 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Malik, Malik, Malik … You keep bringing up the same old BS. The biggest killers of Muslims are other Muslims, not the US or its allies.
    Here’s a quick run-down of recent history …
    Algerian civil war – about 500,000 dead.
    Lebanese Civil war: 100,000 dead, about a million people displaced.
    Darfur: 400,000 dead.
    Syria: 20,000 – 40,000 civilians slaughtered by the Syrian government in Hama
    Saddam Hussain: Upwards of 500,000 people dead
    Iraq: Hundreds of civilians being killed by bombs and suicide bombers (most of whom are Saudi)
    The terrorists’ anger is a bit mis-directed, don’t you think? The countries that are hostile to the US, like Libya and Syria, are no less oppressive than those who aren’t. The terrorists don’t have a problem with murder,mayhem, and oppression – they have a problem when non Muslims are perceived to be doing it
    Aliandra[/quote]

    I think you will find that the Islamists are just as opposed to those governments and regimes as they are to America. The difference is that these countries make it much more difficult to operate. Hama is a good example. They certain have issue with whomever is murdering, oppressing and causing mayhem, they are just unable to do anything about it without massive murder and death visited upon them and civilians wholesale like in Hama. I can agree with your statement if you can agree with the fact that at least some of what these countries have done, ie gassing Kurds, Israeli invasion of Lebanon, would not have been possible or as easy without Western support for such actions.

    I agree with you 100%. I think that reform and change should start at home. I think nothing will change in the Middle East and the Islamic world until their clean up their own backyards first. This, of course, does not negate others role in events in the area.

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]I guess what I’m trying to say, my dear Aliandra, is that Muslims cannot be blamed for everything that goes wrong[/quote]

    Anonymous, my precious buttercup, neither can the US.

    [quote]Don’t tell me that Arabs and Muslims are responsible for every bombing that goes on in the world, ,[/quote]

    I never said they were.

    [quote] none of the so-called “advanced” countries ever did anything, even regarding the Darfur conflict, does the word “poverty” and “ignorance” ring a bell? or the word “power” ? … [/quote]

    Why do you think it is the job of the advanced countries to make you stop killing each other? Why don’t your own people stop it?

    [quote] but it is the atrocities being committed by people like US and UK soldiers or Israelis that makes us rage…[/quote]

    Anon, I will reiterate. The biggest killers in the middle-east are your fellow middle-easterners. Here’s a quick rundown of your recent history (which I posted elswhere)

    Algerian civil war – about 500,000 dead.
    Lebanese Civil war: 100,000 dead, about a million people displaced.
    Darfur: 400,000 dead.
    Syria: 20,000 – 40,000 civilians slaughtered by the Syrian government in Hama
    Saddam Hussain: Upwards of 500,000 people dead
    Iraq: Hundreds of civilians being killed by bombs and suicide bombers (most of whom are Saudi)

    It is your own people you should be raging at the loudest, not the Zionists, not the US, not men from mars.

    Aliandra

  • 7alaylia
    11 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Malik
    Again please get your facts correct. The Tamil Tigers are not the most prolific suicide bombers. At one time yes. Wracking up 200 or so. Not anymore. This more dribble from you. In fact the Tamil Tigers have been mostly silent since Dec 2001 ceasefire and it looks like they are running out of human rsources anyway.
    I suggest you don’t ever claim I wrote words or agreed with you when I didn’t. That is another sleezy ploy you try to do as well.[/quote]

    Prior to the Iraqi war they most certainly were. I stated as much as that several times here in the past when posting about this very same issue. The reason the Tamil Tigers have been relatively quiet is because they are being engaged in a political manner by the Sri Lankan government. It would seem that the Sri Lankan government is failing in this manner and hostilities may resume.

    “Sri Lanka’s Tamil Tiger rebels have threatened to return to war if the government does not resume peace talks based on the rebels’ demand for self-rule.
    The government has rejected that demand. So will the peace process collapse completely? ”

    [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4059857.stm[/url]

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    11 July 2005

    Re(9): Terrorist attacks in London

    Hmmm. I think I’ve been trapped in fallacy here, methinks. Muslim or Catholic or Wiccan or Atheist or whatever, DIB still seems a civilized fellow to me. He’s wrong most of the time, of course, but still civilized.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    Tell me sir, what is your take on the rationale behind this. Can you tell me in an unbiased neutral fashion what goes on in the mind of a young devout muslim as he gets into a bus with tons of explosive ready to kill all the people with him? Whats going on in his mind?

    In reply to this question i ask the question..

    What is going on in the mind of a christian when he decides to systematically exterminate the Jewish race (Hitler)
    What is going on in the mind of The leader of the Roman Catholic church when he sits by and does not condemn Hitler (during the war)
    What is going on in the mind of Orthodox Christians in Srebencia when they slaughtered 800 muslims
    What is going on in the mind of the Leader of the USA when he decides to attack Iraq in his war on Terror, when Iraq played no part in the attacks on september 11th
    What is going on in the minds of the US administration when it decides to drop a Nuclear Weapon on Japan
    What is going on in the minds of the US administration when it decides to drop Napalm in Vietnam

    Terrorism isn’t monopolised by people who follow the Islamic faith it is used by all members of the human race!!!!!!!!

  • kategirl
    11 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    it’s good to have the old steve back… for a while i thought he had gone all soft on us.

  • mohd
    11 July 2005

    You go to the podium with the statements you have, not the statements you want

    [quote]A handful of crimes does not make a country-wide backlash against Muslims. We have a long way to go to top three thousand dead, vaporized by Muslim bigotry[/quote]

    Try this on for size, Steve! This arsonist was intelligent enough to recognize a mosque, and how to torch it. Even if he didn’t quite finish the job, he went for the jugular, now didn’t he? And for all the harassment that happens, you’d just love for us to stand up and applaud that, hey, it could be worse, we could be hauled in under the Patriot Act! Thank you sir, may I have another?

    Additionally, your statement seems to indicate that you’ll consider it a backlash only after 3,000 Muslim/Arab-Americans are summarily vaporised as well? Or is that after you’ve turned the peninsula into glass and subjected the whole Arab race to ideological slavery. Are you telling me that a War of Attrition is the best solution you have to offer?

    We’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t, right? Hamas makes statements condemning the bombings, but it’s not valid because it is Hamas, and therefore anyone that says anything remotely similar is immediately disqualified. Clearly taking words at face value is out of the question for your Nixonian paranoia.

    This really smacks of “When we want an Arab’s opinion, we’ll give it to them!”

  • mahmood
    11 July 2005

    Re(5): Terrorist attacks in London

    Steve, I wish I can answer that. I can only attempt to:

    1. we see many more voices who are Muslim against terror and they are finally not afraid to be noticed. Some are still hesitant and timid for sure, but finally we see a lot more condemnation, and immediately, as compared to 9/11.

    2. The rulers and clerics are in bed with each other and feed off each other. If the rulers condemn, they might be condemned by their clerics! And as the clerics have a huge grass-root following, they can do real damage to the rulers. Look at Saudi or any other Muslim country for that matter and you might understand that relationship.

    3. Hence, my humble advice here is, if the rulers want to continue to rule then they have to take a huge gamble now: take out religion from constitutions and ditch the clerics. This is the golden opportunity that the rulers have been waiting for.. so what’s the hesitation? But I’m afraid if it was done like I suggest then prisons would fill, and attrocities would be committed by both sides that it might descend into civil war. Do we all take this gamble? Maybe another solution is a half-measure or long term clipping of nails?

    4. The “simple people” like me however don’t need a push. I condemn, and I am a single voice in the forest but am happy that I hear quite a lot more voices now that it might sooner or later overtake the braying of clerics, and then point 3 would be much more effective!

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    11 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Jasra: But – what are you trying to do? Incite anger so that people are pushed to extremes? Grow the f**k up. Seriously. People have posted strong moslem condemnations of what happened. [/quote]

    Jasra, my dear, the Muslim community has only now been shamed into saying the right thing by intense criticism from the outside, criticism such as I post here. Now that some are saying the right things, they need to be pushed to DO the right things. That has not happenned yet. If we left it up to the Muslims to do it themselves on their own initiative, it won’t get done.

    Steve

    PS. For those of you not annoyed enough with me yet, I am pleased to announce I have taken up blogging again under my nom de net, Tantor, at Conservative Propaganda. You are all invited, though I caution Jasra to take her blood pressure medicine before logging in.

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    my dear Aliandra,
    yet your high and mighty, rioghteous governments seem to think that it is up to them to “free” the Iraqi people from the “dictator” that Saddam was? How are you going to stand up for them on that one honey?
    The only reason some crazy Arabs kill their own brethren such as “Saudis” as you say in Iraq, is because of their rage at people who help the occupation. I’m not justifying it ina ny way or form. I am totally against any form of human killing by other human, whether Muslim or Christian or Jew, so remember, u can’t generalize! An American Soldier who was missing survived only because a Muslim Family sheltered him, So are they terrorists as well?
    AS

  • mahmood
    11 July 2005

    Re(5): Terrorist attacks in London

    thanks for your sentiments, that’s why I started this journey.

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    As a British muslim who was travelling to work on that day when the bombs went off and was 15 minutes away from the bombs and sure death I find it so ironic that many people on this site believe that acts of terror are not commited elsewhere in the world, well I have news for you they do:

    Everyday an Iraqi goes to work he/she must be thinking about whether they will be coming home that night.
    Everyday a Palestinian boy must be wondering whether he will be shot by an Israeli sniper whilst playing football
    Everyday a Chechnyan women must be thinking is this the day Russian soldiers will knock on my door and rape me.
    Everyday a child in Africa wakes up thinking is he going to eat that day

    I condemn whole heartedly the terrorists who set off the bombs in London (whether muslim or not, as the identity of the attackers is not know yet) at the same time I also condemn the acts of terror administered by Western Powers on the rest of the world. Until there is balance brought on the West’s agenda from pure greed and self indulgence to one of more co-operation and giving unfortunately I fear this will not happen and more acts of terror from both sides will occur.

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]MALIK:I think you will find that the Islamists are just as opposed to those governments and regimes as they are to America. The difference is that these countries make it much more difficult to operate. [/quote]

    Nonsense. The middle-east does not lack for guerrilla talent. Of all the 20 or so countries in the Middle-east and North Africa, they couldn’t ram a single plane into a single government building?

    [quote]Hama is a good example. They certain have issue with whomever is murdering, oppressing and causing mayhem, they are just unable to do anything about it without massive murder and death visited upon them and civilians wholesale like in Hama.[/quote]

    The terrorists in Iraq have no problem with wholesale murdering of civilians to bring down the government. They just write the civilians off as martyrs. I’m sure Hamas could do the same if so inclined.

    [quote] I can agree with your statement if you can agree with the fact that at least some of what these countries have done, ie gassing Kurds, Israeli invasion of Lebanon, would not have been possible or as easy without Western support for such actions.[/quote]

    No one supported the gassing of Kurds, Malik, and you know that. Countries will do what they want to do, with or without western support. Look at all the western scolding over Darfur. It won’t stop until the last villager is killed and his wife and daughters raped.

    Aliandra

  • mahmood
    11 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    Dried up Ali. A long time ago. On one hand the first pair had ample chances to make peace and they didn’t take it, so they can both stew in their own juices until they wake up, and in the second, most of the dead are insurgents and it is a state of war.

    Next time you try this on Ali, there is no guarantee that I’ll answer as politely. I didn’t judge you, why should you judge me? You don’t know me.

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]AS:yet your high and mighty, rioghteous governments seem to think that it is up to them to “free” the Iraqi people from the “dictator” that Saddam was? How are you going to stand up for them on that one honey? [/quote]

    The US didn’t go to Iraq to free the Iraqi people. No war can be sold to Americans on that account. The US went to get Saddam, who, according to every major intelligence agency, possessed WMD.

    The Iraqis should have been “freed” by the Arab League. They were not interested.

    [quote]The only reason some crazy Arabs kill their own brethren such as “Saudis” as you say in Iraq, is because of their rage at people who help the occupation. I’m not justifying it ina ny way or form.[/quote]

    You just did.

    [quote]I am totally against any form of human killing by other human, whether Muslim or Christian or Jew, so remember, [/quote]

    At least we agree on something.

    Aliandra

  • mahmood
    11 July 2005

    Re: Steve??!!

    I totally agree with you JJ. I think Steve seems to have adopted the incitement/hate against everything Muslim as a policy and a strategy. This will prove a failure, just as much as militant Islam has.

    Steve, change mode/strategy to understanding and believe me you will arrive at OUR SHARED GOAL much faster than you think!

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]You know Malik is just going to once again blame this on the US and its “policies”. The point is there is no point in having any dialouge with him unless it is to correct his “misinformations”. Then I think even that is becoming pointless.

    [/quote]

    Yep. Ever see that movie, Groundhog Day?

  • 7alaylia
    11 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Dried up Ali. A long time ago. On one hand the first pair had ample chances to make peace and they didn’t take it, so they can both stew in their own juices until they wake up, and in the second, most of the dead are insurgents and it is a state of war.[/quote]

    The only problem Mahmood is that the Palestinians were not offered a viable solution or offer for peace. The best they were offered was a state where they didnt control the borders, didnt control their airspace, didnt control their own natural resources or water on land that was drastically reduced with pockets of foreign settlers everywhere. A state that would have been made up of four or more cantons divided by Jewish only roads where the Israeli Defense Force had the right to invade at any time and control movment between one canton and another. A state where the people didnt have the right to choose their own capital.

    Is this a solution that you would have accepted were you a Palestinian? Would these limits of sovereignty for Bahrain be acceptable to you?

  • mahmood
    11 July 2005

    Re(5): Terrorist attacks in London

    It’s one thing to call for the separation of Mosque and State, Mahmood – but how does one implement that globally when the Mosque demands marriage to the State, and the State fears the Mosque’s power?

    This is an extremely difficult question Ethan, and an answer must be forthcoming. The shining light here as far as this issue is concerned is Turkey, followed by Tunisia and Morocco. So there are precidents and it’s not so difficult any more. What it takes however is a very strong leader in just one Gulf state, which are viewed as the cradle of Islam, to make the change, then the whole house of cards would crumble.

    However, as the Gulf states in particular are so intwined with clerics to bolster and perpetuate their rule, one or the other has to go for us to move forward. I would like to see the situation where the clerics go. Or at least disconnect them from politics. I know it’s difficult, but it is doable.

  • mahmood
    11 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    what utter drivel

    The only reason some crazy Arabs kill their own brethren such as “Saudis” as you say in Iraq, is because of their rage at people who help the occupation.

    on whose authority did you reach this conclusion Ali? The only reason these dimwits go “kill their brethren” as you put it, although I very much doubt they regard their victims as human beings let alone put them in familial relationships, is the waiting 72 vaginas in Heaven someone promised them. They’re not even in it for the glory, they’re in it for ever lasting sex! Don’t believe me? Have a look at this asshole extolling the virtues of Abdulla Al-Rashood as an “Imam” and a “Martyr” who went to claim them when he got snuffed in Iraq, then got a eulogy by non other than Mr. Bluish (Al-Zarqawi). AND THIS IN A BAHRAINI DAILY!, Al-Rashood was (thank goodness it’s in past tense) the 22nd most wanted on the Saudi list.

    So please don’t give me this simplistic barbie-like-logic of their only reason to kill is because of the “occupation”, talk to the Iraqis first before you put these fantastic claims to air. The only reason they kill my friend, is because they are murderers and that’s how they were raised. Forget religion. That’s only the cover they use to give their LUST for blood legitimacy.

    I’m not justifying it ina ny way or form.

    yes you are. You wouldn’t have brought this up if you weren’t, I never took you for an apologist though, how wrong have I been!

    so remember, u can’t generalize!

    so why do YOU generalise with your previous statements then?

    Have a drink, calm down, and re-evaluate where you stand.

  • mahmood
    11 July 2005

    Re: The Life Of An Unbeliever Has No Value

    you’re digging up some rare nuggets Steve! good. Now get this fuckwad back to wherever the hell he came from and you can tell him I said so. He speaks out of his ass, and certainly NOT IN MY NAME.

    But then, can I ask why you dug this nugget up? Is it to shore up your arguments? I’m sure you can find hundreds of thousands of quotes like this one going back 1400 years… what’s that going to change?

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]at the same time I also condemn the acts of terror administered by Western Powers on the rest of the world.[/quote]

    The rest of the world does not need the Western Powers to administer acts of terror. The rest of the world is perfectly capable of administering its own acts of terror, and does so with relentless determination.

    Aliandra

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    11 July 2005

    Re(1): Steve??!!

    Mahmood,

    I am critical of Muslim behavior. It may be unpleasant to be faced with the facts that some Muslims right there in London welcome terrorist attacks and hope they will bring about an Islamic state in Britain, but there it is. I would not need to present such criticism if the Muslim community itself set a standard of behavior that would not allow such hate to be part of their religion and actively rooted out those scum among them who act it out with bombs. But they don’t. Dead infidels have not bothered them much.

    When Muslims give up forming terror cells and making bombs and turn to education and building schools and hospitals, expect me to take note of it and give praise where it is due. I would like it very much if the Muslims wanted to join our culture and contribute to it like the Indians or Chinese, instead of wanting to destroy it and sow fear. That isn’t happenning.

    When Muslims set up shop in places like England, collect welfare to support the destruction of the state which supports them, abuse the right to free speech to incite others to violence, brazenly threaten their host nation, and make good on those threats in bloody frenzies like last Thursday, expect criticism.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    11 July 2005

    Re(1): The Life Of An Unbeliever Has No Value

    Mahmood,

    I’m not digging them up, I’m stumbling over them. The radical Muslims have not been shy about declaring their bloody objectives. You can’t swing a dead cat on the Internet without hitting a threat by an Islamist. And I don’t see where it raises much objection from the Muslim community.

    I guess what I’d like to see is for Muslim psychopaths like the Sheikh to be as unwelcome in Islam as Salman Rushdie.

    Steve

  • fekete
    11 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    AS ..

    Tears and condolences are in the same place as when we heard that Iraqi’s were killing Iraqis .. that Arab was killing Arab and that Moslem was killing Moslem. The same tears that were shed when we heard that a fellow human being was killing another human, irrespective of race, color or creed.

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik,

    They should have gone back to the negotiating table, not started another intifada. Now they’ve got a 70% unemployment rate in the West Bank because the terrorism has driven out all the business and tourism.

    Aliandra

  • 7alaylia
    11 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]at the same time I also condemn the acts of terror administered by Western Powers on the rest of the world.
    The rest of the world does not need the Western Powers to administer acts of terror. The rest of the world is perfectly capable of administering its own acts of terror, and does so with relentless determination.
    Aliandra[/quote]

    Both the West and the Islamic world are guilty of acts of terror, both individual and state sponsored. No one group is exempt.

  • Steelangel
    11 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]at the same time I also condemn the acts of terror administered by Western Powers on the rest of the world.[/quote]

    An incorrect perception. War is not terrorism. The West does not deliberately target civilians for political gain. In the West, behavior that is out of line with the established norms of international law (not “international law” as seen by non-lawyers who have never read international law) are punished.

    [quote]
    Everyday an Iraqi goes to work he/she must be thinking about whether they will be coming home that night.
    [/quote]

    Because they may be killed by other Muslims who indiscrimiately bomb marketplaced filled with civilians. The greatest danger an Iraqi faces is from Muslims.

    [quote]
    Everyday a Palestinian boy must be wondering whether he will be shot by an Israeli sniper whilst playing football
    [/quote]

    Or lynched by his own side for saying nice things about Jews, or convinced to blow himself up for the most futile of causes. The greatest danger a Palestinian faces is from other Muslims.

    [quote]
    Everyday a Chechnyan women must be thinking is this the day Russian soldiers will knock on my door and rape me.
    [/quote]

    Russia is not a ‘western’ power, hate to say.

    [quote]
    Everyday a child in Africa wakes up thinking is he going to eat that day
    [/quote]

    Because their own governments squander the HUGE amount of aid that is sent to those nations by Western countries. And when those western countries go in to make sure that the food aid is delivered, Muslim Imams pop up and rally the population to fight them off (see: Somalia)

    You want to blame people? Don’t blame the West, mister Anonymous. Blame those who would spit in the face of charity out of some warped sense of ‘honor and religion’.

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    Dear Mahmood and Aliandra,
    you both need to calm down and relax, I don’t justify killing anyone, you guys are tring to say that Muslims all over the world are the terrorists, I have this to say, any animal who plans to kill another and does so , needs to be brought to justice, AND I”M NOT JSUTIFYING ANYTHING FOR THE BASTARDS WHO BLOW OFF BOMBS ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD>…..so good luck to you both! and re-evaluate your own stands…

  • Steelangel
    11 July 2005

    Re: You go to the podium with the statements you have, not the statements you want

    [quote] Or is that after you’ve turned the peninsula into glass and subjected the whole Arab race to ideological slavery.[/quote]

    One could make the statement that the peninsula is already beholden to ideological slavery. Converts to other religions (ending ‘submission’ to the slave-master) recieve the death penalty across most of the peninsula.

    [quote]Hamas makes statements condemning the bombings, but it’s not valid because it is Hamas,[/quote]

    One of the few thosophic similarities between Christianity, Judaism and Islam is this: “God hates the hypocrite”.

    Hamas, who claims many suicide bombings against innocent civilians in Israel, has no moral standing in condemning attacks against innocent civilians elsewhere.

    If I kill someone’s family, do I have the moral standing to condemn someone else’s family being killed? No. The sentiment is nice, but the statement is hypocritical in the extreme.

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Re(6): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik,

    I would wager if Europe did away with its lavish pension systems and told their citizens they would be getting nothing in their old age, they would start having more children so they’d have someone to care for them.

    Just a theory.

    Aliandra

  • 7alaylia
    11 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Malik,
    They should have gone back to the negotiating table, not started another intifada. Now they’ve got a 70% unemployment rate in the West Bank because the terrorism has driven out all the business and tourism.
    Aliandra[/quote]

    The Israelis made it rather clear that the Palestinians had received their “last, final and best offer.” I suggest you read the book by well known Christian Palestinian activist and party to the negotiations Hanan Ashrawi called “The Side of Peace: A Personal Account”. I also suggest reading “From Oslo to Iraq and the Road Map” and “The End of the Peace Process : Oslo and After,” by Edward Said.

    You’ll see that not only were the Palestinians not offered what has been claimed in the Western press, it would seem that the Israeli negotiators knew that the Palestinians would not be able to accept such terms. Palestinians gave, gave and gave, and Israelis were not willing to budge on any key issues. It would seem Arafat was even willing to give in on the right of return. The major sticking point was the right of the Palestinians to have their capital in Arab East Jeruselum. Arafat felt he could give in on the right of return, but he stated that to give up East Jeruselum would be his death warrant.

    I think, personally, and Said concurs, that Arafat was far too willing to give up Palestinian rights. It would seem that Arafat had basically agreed to give up the rights to Palestinian natural resources, borders, water, you name it. The one thing he could give up was Jeruselum. When you read these accounts it will be very clear that the Israelis were not willing to give an inch other than the admission there would be a Palestinian state. They wanted to keep settlements in Palestinian areas, private Jewish only roads. They wanted to replaces the prime land where the settlements with desperately unequal plots of land in undeveloped areas. The list goes on and on.

    Better to have no country than to have a country that is not really a country, a reservation like Indians have in America, or a bantustan. Once you accept such and agreement that is your fate forever.

  • 7alaylia
    11 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]at the same time I also condemn the acts of terror administered by Western Powers on the rest of the world.
    An incorrect perception. War is not terrorism. The West does not deliberately target civilians for political gain. In the West, behavior that is out of line with the established norms of international law (not “international law” as seen by non-lawyers who have never read international law) are punished. [/quote]

    If this is the case why does the US not allow its soldiers to come under the jurisdiction of the International War Crimes Tribunal, set up to prosecute such acts?
    [quote]Everyday an Iraqi goes to work he/she must be thinking about whether they will be coming home that night.
    Because they may be killed by other Muslims who indiscrimiately bomb marketplaced filled with civilians. The greatest danger an Iraqi faces is from Muslims. [/quote]

    Statistically more Muslims have died since the begining of the war by Americans and coalition troops than other Muslims. Although, it would seem the terrorists are slowly catching up.
    [quote]Everyday a Palestinian boy must be wondering whether he will be shot by an Israeli sniper whilst playing football
    Or lynched by his own side for saying nice things about Jews, or convinced to blow himself up for the most futile of causes. The greatest danger a Palestinian faces is from other Muslims. [/quote]

    Do you have links for a Palestinian being lynched for “saying nice things about Jews” or this jsut more made up rhetoric? I would love to see it. As to fighting for the most futile of causes, I hardly think fighting for the independence of one’s own country is futile.
    [quote]Everyday a Chechnyan women must be thinking is this the day Russian soldiers will knock on my door and rape me.
    Russia is not a ‘western’ power, hate to say. [/quote]

    In the modern geo-politcal context, it most certainly is.
    [quote]Everyday a child in Africa wakes up thinking is he going to eat that day
    Because their own governments squander the HUGE amount of aid that is sent to those nations by Western countries. And when those western countries go in to make sure that the food aid is delivered, Muslim Imams pop up and rally the population to fight them off (see: Somalia)
    You want to blame people? Don’t blame the West, mister Anonymous. Blame those who would spit in the face of charity out of some warped sense of ‘honor and religion’.[/quote]

    Again, yes bad things happen, but it isnt Islam that does it. Hint for you, most of our African aid goes to non Muslim nations. You can hardly blame Islam for that can you?

  • Steelangel
    11 July 2005

    Re(5): Terrorist attacks in London

    Tu quoque.

    For the record Hitler’s beliefs were hardly Christian. He was a neo-germanic-paganist with Christian gloss. Read Heinrich Himmler. I’m sure Malik has. Another point about Hitler is that his fascism was defeated. As Jihadism will be.

    The pope didn’t condemn the Nazis out of fear. He lost the moral argument because he was too afraid of what they would to to him if he’d said anything.

    Orthodox Christians were looking for revenge for Muslim atrocities against Christians in that region dating back hundreds of years. Kinda like the Jihadis today who rail against the ‘crusades

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Re(5): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]What is going on in the mind of a christian when he decides to systematically exterminate the Jewish race (Hitler)[/quote]

    Hitler did not do what he did in the name of religion. Stalin killed more people than Hitler and he did not do it in the name of religion either.

    [quote]What is going on in the mind of The leader of the Roman Catholic church when he sits by and does not condemn Hitler (during the war)[/quote]

    Pope Pius did indeed condemn the treatment of the Jews.

    [quote]What is going on in the mind of the Leader of the USA when he decides to attack Iraq in his war on Terror, when Iraq played no part in the attacks on september 11th[/quote]

    iraq was attacked over WMD, not over 9-11.

    [quote]What is going on in the minds of the US administration when it decides to drop a Nuclear Weapon on Japan[/quote]

    The firebombing of Tokyo killed far more people. No one in the rest of Asia has ever condemned the bombing of Japan. They were happy to see the end of the Japanese empire. The Japanese committed horrendous atrocities on the surrounding countries.

  • Steelangel
    11 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote] If this is the case why does the US not allow its soldiers to come under the jurisdiction of the International War Crimes Tribunal, set up to prosecute such acts?[/quote]

    Neither does France, or other European nations, by the way.
    Why do you think that French soldiers got away with firing into a civilian crowd in The Ivory Coast recently? Oh wait. It was the US’s fault, right?

    [quote] Statistically more Muslims have died since the begining of the war by Americans and coalition troops than other Muslims. Although, it would seem the terrorists are slowly catching up.[/quote]

    Oh yes, the highly discredited 100,000 number. Spin me again, Malik.

    [quote] Do you have links for a Palestinian being lynched for “saying nice things about Jews” or this jsut more made up rhetoric?[/quote]

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1119996.stm

    ‘Collaborating’ could mean just about anything. Perhaps he just wanted peace instead of being used by the Arab establishment as paraiahs in Mohammed’s war against Jews.

    [quote]
    Again, yes bad things happen, but it isnt Islam that does it. Hint for you, most of our African aid goes to non Muslim nations. You can hardly blame Islam for that can you?[/quote]

    Hint for you: most African nations are not Islamic.
    Somalia is.
    HEY.. wow! That’s what my point was. The one time we go in to make sure aid is delivered, the Muslim establishment declares a Jihad. How kind.

  • 7alaylia
    11 July 2005

    Re(1): You go to the podium with the statements you have, not the statements you want

    [quote]
    Or is that after you’ve turned the peninsula into glass and subjected the whole Arab race to ideological slavery.
    One could make the statement that the peninsula is already beholden to ideological slavery. Converts to other religions (ending ‘submission’ to the slave-master) recieve the death penalty across most of the peninsula. [/quote]

    Sure, if you are simplistically talking about land mass size. The vast majority of the peninsula, countrywise, does not have such happenings. When is the last time someone was put to death for converting in UAE or Qatar? One country, Saudi Arabia, out of how many?
    [quote]Hamas makes statements condemning the bombings, but it’s not valid because it is Hamas,
    One of the few thosophic similarities between Christianity, Judaism and Islam is this: “God hates the hypocrite”.
    Hamas, who claims many suicide bombings against innocent civilians in Israel, has no moral standing in condemning attacks against innocent civilians elsewhere.
    If I kill someone’s family, do I have the moral standing to condemn someone else’s family being killed? No. The sentiment is nice, but the statement is hypocritical in the extreme. [/quote]

    So when you know that the US wiped out a whole extended family at a wedding in Iraq does that mean they have no moral standing to speak? How do YOU justify the civilian “collateral” damaged caused by US military actions? US bombers killed an entire family in Afghanistan this weekend. Another terrible accident. Arent the very purpose of military actions to terrorise the enemy? I see precious little difference between terrorists who target civilians and a superpower that doesnt even care enough to count the number of civilians it kills. Why? Because they dont reallty matter at the end of the day. The US government, at the end of the day, doesnt care how many people they kill, as long as the numbers arent so high that it causes an issue with allies.

    As to Israel, they really hurt their cause when every adult male between the ages of 18 and 55 must be a member of the military. Effectively that means that any bomb that will kill adult male Israelis is targeting members of the Israeli military, anyone else caught in the blast can be argued to be “collateral damage” much as the hundreds of civilians killed in offensives in places like Fallujah. This is how it is argued. As a Muslim, I reject this arugment because knowingly attacking a target that will certain cause non military injuries or deaths is haraam.

  • mahmood
    11 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    absolutely classic… shift the blame!

  • mahmood
    11 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    shall we get back to London? we’ll leave the Palestinian/Israeli thing to another topic…

  • 7alaylia
    11 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]
    If this is the case why does the US not allow its soldiers to come under the jurisdiction of the International War Crimes Tribunal, set up to prosecute such acts?
    Neither does France, or other European nations, by the way.
    Why do you think that French soldiers got away with firing into a civilian crowd in The Ivory Coast recently? Oh wait. It was the US’s fault, right?

    Statistically more Muslims have died since the begining of the war by Americans and coalition troops than other Muslims. Although, it would seem the terrorists are slowly catching up.
    Oh yes, the highly discredited 100,000 number. Spin me again, Malik. [/quote]

    Even if it is half that the US and coalition forces have the terrorists beat.
    [quote]:
    Do you have links for a Palestinian being lynched for “saying nice things about Jews” or this jsut more made up rhetoric?
    < http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1119996.stm>
    ‘Collaborating’ could mean just about anything. Perhaps he just wanted peace instead of being used by the Arab establishment as paraiahs in Mohammed’s war against Jews. [/quote]

    Give me a break Ethan! You are just making things up here. I have been to Palestine and I know a lot of Palestinians. People are not killed for “saying nice things about Jews.” Your argument is desperate when you start having to make things up and speculate. Palestinians shot as collaborators are usually suspected or proven of having provided material assistance to the Israelis. The same thing would and has happened in the USA, albeit usually with more due process than is present in Palestine at the moment. You need to understand how Palestinian society works. No family would allow a family member to be killed for “saying nice things.”
    [quote]Again, yes bad things happen, but it isnt Islam that does it. Hint for you, most of our African aid goes to non Muslim nations. You can hardly blame Islam for that can you?
    Hint for you: most African nations are not Islamic.
    Somalia is.
    HEY.. wow! That’s what my point was. The one time we go in to make sure aid is delivered, the Muslim establishment declares a Jihad. How kind. [/quote]

    Again more rank nonsense. The majority of aid goes to non Muslim nations. You trying to spin one nation into some sort of attack against Islam is just crazy. You are the very same as Steve, seeking nothing more than to insight hatred, play on prejudices and hatreds. Like another poster here stated, those tactics will fail just as surely as militant Islam has.

  • Re(5): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]
    The Israelis made it rather clear that the Palestinians had received their “last, final and best offer.”
    Yet here they are again, negotiating.[/quote]

    Sure, why not negotiate when they can point to the Palestinians and say it is all their fault and almost the entire Western media will buy it up?
    [quote]
    that Arafat was far too willing to give up Palestinian rights. It would seem that Arafat had basically agreed to give up the rights to Palestinian natural resources, borders, water, you name it.
    Arafat didn’t give a rat’s ass about the Palestinians. He robbed them blind and sent his thugs after those who would criticize him. Arafat was interested in the well being of Arafat. He should have been awarded another Nobel peace prize just for dropping dead.[/quote]

    I dont think Arafat cared about the Palestinian people, as a people, but I think he cared about the Palestinian ideal, the Palestinian state. I am no fan of Arafat. I view him has another in a long line of kleptocrats in the Middle East.
    [quote]
    Palestinians gave, gave and gave, and Israelis were not willing to budge on any key issues.
    But they weren’t willing to give up their terrorism. And they still aren’t.[/quote]

    Aliandra, I agree that Palestinians would be best served using a non-violent campaign modeled on Nelson Mandela’s and the ANC, but keep in mind that ANC was listed and derided as a terrorist group by no less a person than Dick Cheney. I think the Israel fear a non violent campaign more than a violent campaign. A campaign of violence by the Palestinians allows the Israelis to continue their treatment of the Palestinians, often illegal under international law. With the violence gone I suspect the world would end up gather around the Palestinians much the same way they did around black South Africans. How could the Israelis stand against the entire world in refusing to give the Palestinians what they want when they do nothing more than stage sit ins, mass protests, you name it. It is Israel’s worst fear. For the moment they can just claim “we are fighting terror.”
    [quote]At the US sponsored camp David peace talks in the 70’s they could’ve had the 1948 deal but Arafat said all the land or nothing at all.
    I don’t have much sympathy for the Israelis or the Palestinians. A pox on both their houses.
    Aliandra[/quote]

    I dont buy this one bit. Saudi Arabia, no less, offered a total and comprehensive peace with Israel on behalf of all Arab states and Israel still said no. All Israel had to do was to go back to 1967 borders. This was too much to have peace with the whole Arab world. Who made the stupid move?

    Anyway, Mahmood asked us to stay clear of the Palestinian issue, so lets give it a go! LOL!

  • Meet The Dead

    Here is the list of missing and dead from Thursday’s bombing horror in London.

    It includes Susan Levy, 53, wife of Harry, a taxi driver, and mother of two: Daniel, 25 and James, 23. She’s one of those infidels whose life, Sheikh Mohammed of London said, has no value.

    Steve

    [Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on July 11, 2005 12:11 PM]

  • mahmood
    11 July 2005

    Re: Meet The Dead

    May God have mercy on their souls, and give succor to their families and friends. I hope that the missing are found, and the dead are decently buried.

    At the same time, may He punish those who caused their death and disappearance much hardship in this life and the next.

  • 7alaylia
    11 July 2005

    Re(1): Meet The Dead

    [quote]May God have mercy on their souls, and give succor to their families and friends. I hope that the missing are found, and the dead are decently buried.
    At the same time, may He punish those who caused their death and disappearance much hardship in this life and the next.[/quote]

    Insha’Allah. May I add that their deaths be used to bring people together, and not used as a tool by people to try and pull people apart. Isnt it time the killing stopped?

    [Modified by: Malik (celticview) on July 11, 2005 01:27 PM]

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    Sadly I seem to be reliving the viewing with almost every post!

  • mahmood
    11 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    And why didn’t YOU have a candle lit vigil at the Iraqi and Palestinian embassies then? No body stopped you from doing so…. so are you just “selling” words?

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Re(2): Meet The Dead

    [quote]”It is to the shame of the international community that this evil took place under our noses and we did nothing,” said British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw. “I bitterly regret this and I’m deeply sorry for it.” [/quote]

    Ah yes. The “never again” mantra. They said it after Cambodia and after Rwanda too. And when all the villagers of Darfur are dead, the same lip flapping will be filling our ears again.

    Aliandra

  • 7alaylia
    11 July 2005

    Re(3): Meet The Dead

    [quote]Ah yes. The “never again” mantra. They said it after Cambodia and after Rwanda too. And when all the villagers of Darfur are dead, the same lip flapping will be filling our ears again.
    Aliandra[/quote]

    The “never againers” usually mean “never again will you kill my people.” It is nonsense. If we meant never again we would have gone into Darfur, Bosnia, Chechnya, and a host of other places right from the very begining. What they should be saying is “never again…..if our strategic interests are at jeopardy.” Shame on the international community.

  • 7alaylia
    11 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    Chan’ad, someone requested on your blog that a link be given here to the pictures you made of the vigil at the British Embassy. Good pictures, good post.

    [url]http://chanad.weblogs.us/?p=396[/url]

  • Steelangel
    11 July 2005

    Re(2): You go to the podium with the statements you have, not the statements you want

    [quote]Sure, if you are simplistically talking about land mass size.[/quote]

    Which I am. Saudi Arabia is roughly 80% of the Peninsula. However, in Yemen, conversion is also frowned upon. I can’t speak for the less citified areas of Bahrain, Qatar or the UAE, but I’m pretty sure that converts aren’t as accepted as they are in the US.

    [quote]So when you know that the US wiped out a whole extended family at a wedding in Iraq does that mean they have no moral standing to speak? How do YOU justify the civilian “collateral” damaged caused by US military actions?[/quote]

    Captain Malik! Defender of the Weak! Master of Equivalence! Or something.

    The day a US fighter pilot says the following exchange:
    Pilot: “Base, this is Alpha One, A Muslim Wedding Part is below. Permission to bomb the fuck out of them?”
    Ground control: “Granted.”

    Then you’ll have an arguement. Of course, your argument will be defeated by the fact that both the pilot and the ground control command would be prosecuted beyond respite. That’s how the West works. On the other hand, the same sort of communication amongst Jihadis happens every time a funeral or wedding gets suicide bombed. But we don’t think about that, do we Malik?

    [quote]Arent the very purpose of military actions to terrorise the enemy? [/quote]

    No. That’s the purpose of Mohammed’s military actions – to attack peaceful Jews or Meccans and create a wide slaughter in the land before taking his concubines. But nice try.

    I severely doubt that you can even make the logical equivocation between a terrorist and US military action in Iraq and Afghanistan. It’s just not there. Except in your twisted view of reality.

    [quote]
    I see precious little difference between terrorists who target civilians and a superpower that doesnt even care enough to count the number of civilians it kills.[/quote]

    Then you are blind.
    Firstly, it is not the responsibility of an army to keep an accurate tally of civilian casualties.
    It is the responsibility of an army NOT TO TARGET CIVILIANS SPECIFICALLY.

    The US has lived up to this. The Jihadis have not.
    But then again, when you can simply twist meanings and say that ‘well everyone’s a combatant’ then you can infidelize the entire world with enough dancing! Thanks Malik. I knew you had it in you. Go Kill. God wants you to.

  • Steelangel
    11 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Even if it is half that the US and coalition forces have the terrorists beat.[/quote]

    Except that it isn’t even close to half of that.
    Put better – who is targeting civilians?
    If the Jihadis were not ‘resisting’ occupation by blowing up random streetcorners, there would be few, if any civilians killed in Iraq after the cessation of hostilities, and we’d have our troops out by now.

    [quote]The same thing would and has happened in the USA, albeit usually with more due process than is present in Palestine at the moment. You need to understand how Palestinian society works. No family would allow a family member to be killed for “saying nice things.”[/quote]

    And I wonder why there is no due process? Oh wait.. because Palesinian civil society is suffused with people who will kill you for any number of things. I could point to the honor killings or the extrajudicial lynchings, but you won’t believe me, even if presented with a link from al-BBC.

    And by the by, your harping about who you know is getting annoying.
    I happen to know 15 Arabs, North Americans, Europeans and Africans who agree with me.

    [quote]You trying to spin one nation into some sort of attack against Islam is just crazy.[/quote]

    No, I’m trying to say that a military action designed for the express purpose of distibuting aid was spun into a Jihad by some clerics in Somalia. They even had the story in explicit detail on the History Channel – root causes? Americans distributing aid = infidels persecuting Muslims.

  • fekete
    11 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    “Jasra, my dear, the Muslim community has only now been shamed into saying the right thing by intense criticism from the outside, criticism such as I post here”.

    No, my dear. The Muslim community has only been shamed into saying the right thing because they are starting to realize that these extremists who are murdering in the name of Islam will turn on them eventually. As they are doing in Iraq. As they did in the UK.

    Don’t give yourself that much credit for getting people to change their minds. Hell, I am hardly the best Moslem in town, and certainly would be shot by the wahabbis, the shia, the salafis and any moslem claiming to be the ‘true’ defender of the faith .. but reading your posts makes me want to point out the implicit racism that your statements embody. And the hatred contained within. And, if that is my response as someone who couldn’t hurt a fly, then what do you think the effect of your approach would be on someone who really identifes themselves first and foremost as a peace loving moslem?

    And, on a lighter note – you cant be more holy than the pope or more royal than the king. if the british themselves do not think that these attacks on Thursday were an atempt to create an Islamic state in Britain – then are you really authorized to make that comment? Or are you just trying to create an arguement that will suit your own political goals and views of what the US is trying to do?

    You forgot – the Londoners were, as a majority, against the war in Iraq. Blair stood with Bush. along with the rest of the ‘coalition of the willing’. Now – noone wants to talk about the Q word in Iraq .. quagmire. For better or for worse, that war unleashed all the underlying festering issues in the middle east that has been spreading through the soul of the region like terminal cancer. Whether it is the debate within Islam, the clery and the government, the haves and the have nots, the role of women, the lack of development, the lack of civil society institutions, the lack of successful leadership, the lack of justice in Palestine, the lack of basic demographic control .. you name it, we have it. And, for better or for worse, Iraq unleashed it all into the open.

    We will have to go through the Sunni- Shia truce, the clergy-govt truce, the male-female truce, and the west-east truce. But, the first, the battles will rage. And, when it gets too bloody, the colaition of the willing will extricate itself, and the regional battlefield will yeild to those who have more military/terrorist might. To those who are radical beleivers in islam, to those who value death over life, darkness over light. They are years ahead of us. (Thanks to some effective CIA training). 😉

    if you really wanted to help the silent majority of the Moslems to learn how to speak up and fight for their vision of a moderate world that guarantees human rights, wouldnt it be more constructive of you to show how some of these battles were fought, and won, in the past? Do it through inspiration rather than intimidation?

  • 7alaylia
    11 July 2005

    Some Muslims can be good…..

    I often wonder why news of atrocities make news for days on end where the good deeds done make scant if no coverage. Case in point, the recent deaths of three US Navy SEALs in Afghanistan. Three died, one lived. How many people knew that the one man who survived likely only did so because some MUSLIM Afghanis sheltered him, putting their lives and the lives of everyone in their clan at risk?

    When a Muslim calls for jihad it makes the news, when Muslims risk the lives of everyone they know to protect an American serviceman, it gets a quick blip.

    [b]”The lone SEAL survivor — whom the military has not identified publicly — was aided by Afghans who found him and sheltered him until he could be rescued by the U.S. military, the senior official said. “[/b]

    [url]http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/07/10/afghan.seal/index.html[/url]

    Thanks to Mahmood and Jasra for making some very good points. Your points are shared by myself, you just have a better way of getting it across. Thanks.

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    I think this is a very interesting post. I’ve seen many different arguments like this over the past few years. I remember telling people what a threat Al Qaeda was back in 1998. But nobody listened. Before anybody jumps on me, let me say that I am a muslim born person. I don’t believe in Islam anymore. I stopped believing in it about 8 years ago because it did’nt make any sense to me. Ok. now that that is out of the way. Lets look at the muslim world.

    1) The so-called outrage by muslim leaders. Who cares. We all know that the people of those same muslim countries are distributing halwa in their neighbourhoods everytime a westerner is killed in a bomb attack. The west knows this, but they ignore it. For now. Who remembers right after 9/11 the celebrations in Pakistan and in the shanty towns of occupied Palestine. Do you think western governments are blind? They know how the average muslim thinks. But they ignore it. For now.

    2) Muslims in the west abuse freedoms they would never give their own people should they ever come to power. What does that tell you? Yes they are homicidal hypocrites. But they’re also pretty smart.

    Heres the point I’m trying to get at………

    The argument that the terrorists are just some kind of lunatic fringe is losing its legitimacy. They aren’t lunatics. They are young educated muslims. What seperates a young educated muslim from anybody else? Yup, you guessed it Islam. I would wager more than half of the terrorist bombers in europe were born there. People won’t ignore this for ever. People will not ignore the muslims inability to assimilate. People will not ignore the fact that muslims from all over the world (US, U.K., Spain, Sudan, Pakistan, Chechnya, Philipines, Indonesia) have all decided to start a Jihad against their non-muslim neighbours. What connects a Chechan to a Sudani to a Philipino?

    Pretty soon someones going to put 2 and 2 together. And the answer they are going to get is this. The reasons for the terrorism are not socio-political, georgraphic or economic. They stem from the religion itself. Once they figure this out, God help anyone with any kind of muslim name. People are getting sick of seeing ugly monkies dance and cheer when women and children are being ripped apart by shrapnel and in case anyone here does’nt understand it, they have’nt really begun to fight back yet. The Americans are being nice. Trying to set up law and order in Iraq. Funding Afghan reconstruction programmes? You think its a joke. They don’t have to do that. They could do whatever they want to do in those countries. Yes, they could set big gas ovens and turn Iraq into a big oil museum. The only thing saving the people of Iraq is public opinion. Public decency. You keep bombing them and you will erode that to an extent where elected officials will have to say things like,

    “We must ban all muslims from coming to Europe” because thats what the voters will want to hear.

  • 7alaylia
    11 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    That is all nice and good. The statistics speak against you, however. There are millions and millions of Muslims in the USA, yet only a small amount of attacks have happened. If terrorism was a part of these communities, as you claim, there would be thousands of incidents, not just a few. This is not to justify these attacks, but to keep them in perspective.

    Islam does not cause suicide bombings anymore than Hinduism has cause the Tamil Tigers to be the most prolific suicide bombers until the US invaded Iraq.

    What are you suggestions then? You seem to be arguing that Islam is what drives people to do these attacks? You said “They are young educated muslims. What seperates a young educated muslim from anybody else? Yup, you guessed it Islam.” I think you generalise way too much. The reaction in the Muslim world and in the west to these recent attacks I think erodes your arugments. There will always be a fringe, educated or not, that support such things, but it is just that, a fringe, and I think the moderates, those who do not support things are now finding their feet, thank God.

    What is then your solution for the problem then? It is easy to point out the problems, much harder to come up with ideas to address the situation.

  • mahmood
    11 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    How utterly frivolous.

    So you think with your attitude, continuous incitement and outright flames wrapped in so called logic and a quick google or two YOU are pushing Muslims to “recognise the truth?”

    No Steve, all you’re doing is forcing the militants to be more militant and the moderates throw up their hands in the air and cry there is no use!

    Get a life Steve, with or without your new blog, all you’re doing unfortunately is trolling. If this is your attitude and goal in life, then good luck to you. All I can say is to repeat what I said above.

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Re(6): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]You can go to India and Pakistan if you seek peace or coexistance since you are male. Check out todays New York Times article by Salman Rushdie called “India and Pakistan’s Code of Dishonored” which discusses the treatment of women in Islamic cultures, [/quote]

    Anon,

    I would like to point out that Pakistan is the country that has the the biggest problem with honor killings. In Indonesia, however, the world’s most populous Muslim country, honor killing of women is virtually unknown.

    This appears to be more of a cultural problem, than a religious one.

    Aliandra

  • 7alaylia
    11 July 2005

    Re(7): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Anon,
    I would like to point out that Pakistan is the country that has the the biggest problem with honor killings. In Indonesia, however, the world’s most populous Muslim country, honor killing of women is virtually unknown.
    This appears to be more of a cultural problem, than a religious one.
    Aliandra[/quote]

    So true. The problem is pretty big in India as well, which shares many cultural similarities with Pakistan. It exists in the Muslim as well as the Hindu culture there.

  • anonymous
    11 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    The solution which is unspeakable to any muslim, is a revamping of the religion. Pure and simple. People have to seriously look at Islam and see why it is so unclear a faith that people justify everything from Terror, to spousal abuse, to rape with Islam. They will fight with you to the point of death (yes we’ve seen this already) that Islam supports this kind of Jihad. Who is telling them this? Are they all crazy?

    BTW, I am not generalising. Remember for every one bomber there is some kind of support network. Yes, there are millions of muslims in the States, and a lot of them quietly applaud these attacks. Lets say not all of them. Lets say 30%. Ok. fine. We’ll half that. Lets say 15%. You know this to be true. There are so many neo-wahabbi fanatics in the west. So many so-called Imams and Sheikhs that call the very people that feed them, Nijis, unclean, and say that killing their men and raping their women is halal.

    The question that should be asked is this:-

    Why is it that a man born in the west, supported by the west (in terms of welfare, schooling, etc) feels the need lash out at what he deems to be “western civilisation” (actually its MODERN civilisation) in a terribly violent fashion? What justifies this behaviour in his mind?”

    This is the reality that must be faced.

    One last thing. Lets keep something in perspective. The Tamils did not kill for Hinduism. They killed for their ethinic right to self rule. Every bombing that happens, from Spain, London, Istanbul, India, etc, etc. Is done to “promote” Islam.

    Tell me sir, what is your take on the rationale behind this. Can you tell me in an unbiased neutral fashion what goes on in the mind of a young devout muslim as he gets into a bus with tons of explosive ready to kill all the people with him? Whats going on in his mind?

  • 7alaylia
    12 July 2005

    Re(1): Meet The Dead

    [quote]More details of the dead of London, including Shahara Akther Islam, 20, a Muslim daughter of Bangladeshi immigrants, who was on her way to work at a bank. She never arrived. Her family thinks she was on the the Circle line train just beyond Aldgate station when it detonated at 8:51am on Thursday[/quote]

    I saw an interview with relatives of this young lady at a mosque in London. One must keep in mind that these attacks took place close to what I think is the largest Muslim community in London. The people who did these attacks dont care who they kill, Muslim, or otherwise.

    May God rest her soul in peace. She died a martyr in the struggle against terror.

  • 7alaylia
    12 July 2005

    Re(7): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Actually, Malik, Ethan was making sport of you but the joke flew over your head.
    The rest of us got it though.
    Steve[/quote]

    Actually, I dont think he was, mores the pity!

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    12 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik: “If this is the case why does the US not allow its soldiers to come under the jurisdiction of the International War Crimes Tribunal, set up to prosecute such acts?”

    Because we rightly see the IWCT as not a body devoted to justice but rather a way for Europe to interfere with our foreign policy by bringing bogus charges of fictitious war crimes against US soldiers.

    Malik: “Statistically more Muslims have died since the begining of the war by Americans and coalition troops than other Muslims. Although, it would seem the terrorists are slowly catching up.”

    According to the Iraq Body Count, which tallies all reported Iraqi deaths, the US military action in Iraq cost between 22,787 and 25,814 Iraqi lives. I might point out that many thousands of these were Saddam supporters whose death makes Iraq and the world a better place. One group of Iraqis combing through Baathist records after the invasion estimate that Saddam would have executed 70,000 Iraqis in the year after the invasion had he remained in power. That’s close to 50,000 Iraqi lives spared by the American invasion.

    Malik: “Do you have links for a Palestinian being lynched for “saying nice things about Jews” or this jsut more made up rhetoric? I would love to see it. As to fighting for the most futile of causes, I hardly think fighting for the independence of one’s own country is futile.”

    You’re both wrong. Palestinians are routinely executed for running afoul of the thugs that run it. They’re called spies for the Israelis or the like when they are executed so that nobody will question the murder. And Palestine is hardly worth fighting for. It’s just another Middle Eastern mafia state, worse than tyrannies like Egypt and Saudi Arabia which you condemn. Even should Palestine become independent, its people will never be free under the thugs who run it.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    12 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik: “As to Saudis getting a “speed pass” through immigration, I would wonder how many Saudis you know? I can tell you they most certainly do not get a speed pass through immigration in ANY western country, let alone the USA.”

    Malik, what I find so amusing about you is the absolute ferocity with which you hold a position in which you are ignorant. One of the major issues coming out of the Sep 11 event was that Saudis could go to the US embassy and get an expedited visa with little documentation. Several of the skyjackers took advantage of this very vulnerability to get their visas. To pile stupidity on top of stupidity, the State Department continued this practice even after it was uncovered and publicized until the public criticism grew too great. Evidently, you missed all this.

    So the question is, how can you know all these Saudis you claim and NOT know this?

    Malik: “Trust me Steve, if you are involved in the IT business as you claim, you are well aware that a sizeable chunk of foreign born IT workers in the US are from Muslim countries or backgrounds, especially if we start talking about people with Electrical Engineering degrees rather than the easier Computer Science degrees.”

    Well, Malik, I have been successfully fooling my employers for some years now that I am in the IT business. So far, I have bilked them out of hundreds of thousands of dollars with my clever ruse. Please don’t tell them.

    Most of my jobs have been in the software end of the business where electrical engineers only end up by accident. My field is full of Chinese and Indians and Vietnamese, but not many Muslims from the Middle East. There’s one Somali-born guy in my present shop who is probably Muslim. Of the eight or so IT shops I’ve been in over the last fifteen years, I only recall one other Muslim, an Iranian guy. There may be some I missed but there just aren’t a lot of Muslims banging out software in the shops I’ve worked in. I meet more Ukrainian computer geeks than Muslim computer geeks.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    12 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    AS: “Stop giving yourself the credited of waking us Muslims up, we definitely don’t need people who are racists to tell us what to do! And remember my dear boy, that terrorism is pressure unleashed, I’m absolutely against what happened in London, but Muslims are the only one being used as scapegoats here.”

    Actually, it does appear that Muslims need people like me to keep the focus on the crimes committed to propagate Islam rather than to allow them to equivocate and obfuscate them. As for Islamic terror, its root cause is pure religious bigotry. In the current case, it is the bigotry of Wahhabis who have framed their religion in their peculiar Bedouin culture which has spread itself by raiding the city people and annihilating them. It is a new variant of herding people attacking urban people, as noted by Ibn Khaldoun in the Muqqadimah seven centuries ago. You can see it in the Wahhabi call to return to the 13th century and their contempt for modernity.

    Steve

  • 7alaylia
    12 July 2005

    Re(5): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]
    Malik, what I find so amusing about you is the absolute ferocity with which you hold a position in which you are ignorant. One of the major issues coming out of the Sep 11 event was that Saudis could go to the US embassy and get an expedited visa with little documentation. Several of the skyjackers took advantage of this very vulnerability to get their visas. To pile stupidity on top of stupidity, the State Department continued this practice even after it was uncovered and publicized until the public criticism grew too great. Evidently, you missed all this.[/quote]

    You were speaking historically? You should have made that clear. It is VERY hard for a Saudi to get a visa into the USA now. Friends of ours, the man being an editor of a major Saudi paper in London, took months and months to get a visa for his family although he travels to the US all of the time for business.
    [quote]So the question is, how can you know all these Saudis you claim and NOT know this?[/quote]

    I was aware of this HISTORICAL fact, but it is just that, history Steve.
    [quote]
    Most of my jobs have been in the software end of the business where electrical engineers only end up by accident. My field is full of Chinese and Indians and Vietnamese, but not many Muslims from the Middle East. There’s one Somali-born guy in my present shop who is probably Muslim. Of the eight or so IT shops I’ve been in over the last fifteen years, I only recall one other Muslim, an Iranian guy. There may be some I missed but there just aren’t a lot of Muslims banging out software in the shops I’ve worked in. I meet more Ukrainian computer geeks than Muslim computer geeks.
    Steve[/quote]

    That explains it then. The software end of the business does not require the maths that the Engineering degree does. Our computer science and programers here are not as heavy with foreign workers as are the engineering areas. We dont even hire computer science grads anymore(certainly not information sicences), except for the occasional person with a Masters. The thinking is that why would you hire a comp sci guy for programing when you can hire a EE who can do the same thing, yet has the maths to handle the hardware? The set of credentials to have at the moment is really a EE/Physics double degree. Not that hard, the double physics degree takes only an extra semester, maybe two, as the classes are pretty similar. Heck, even Ethan has some sort of convulted explaination at why Muslims excel at engineering. As if being Muslim carried with it genetic traits.

  • 7alaylia
    12 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]AS: “Stop giving yourself the credited of waking us Muslims up, we definitely don’t need people who are racists to tell us what to do! And remember my dear boy, that terrorism is pressure unleashed, I’m absolutely against what happened in London, but Muslims are the only one being used as scapegoats here.”
    Actually, it does appear that Muslims need people like me to keep the focus on the crimes committed to propagate Islam rather than to allow them to equivocate and obfuscate them.[/quote]

    LOL! The humour doesnt stop today! Steve, if you think you are doing some sort of public service by plastering your hatred and ignorance all over the net, feel free. Far be it for me, or the other Muslims on this board, to tell you any different.

    Like Mahmood said, and he is certainly a moderate Muslim, all you do is cause the moderate Muslims to hide and the extremists to become more extreme. I dont even give you that much credit as you dont do anything in real life to further your “goals”(whatever they might be) and only interact online. I would say your impact is somewhere around zero.

    Dont you see that even the moderate Muslims here who would normally back you have had a go at you the last few days? If you alienate even people like this there is no hope you will affect anyone else.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    12 July 2005

    Re: You go to the podium with the statements you have, not the statements you want

    DIB: “Try this on for size, Steve! This arsonist was intelligent enough to recognize a mosque, and how to torch it. Even if he didn’t quite finish the job, he went for the jugular, now didn’t he?”

    The article doesn’t say who did it, DIB. Your arson conspiracy theory reminds me of the fictional arson conspiracy against black churches that swept through America a few years ago. In most cases, it turned out the arsonists were drunken teenaged vandals who saw churches as an easy target or faulty wiring caused the fires. I imagine its the same for mosques.

    DIB: “Additionally, your statement seems to indicate that you’ll consider it a backlash only after 3,000 Muslim/Arab-Americans are summarily vaporised as well? Or is that after you’ve turned the peninsula into glass and subjected the whole Arab race to ideological slavery. Are you telling me that a War of Attrition is the best solution you have to offer?”

    Actually, what I’m pointing out is that a handful of attacks by American yahoos against Muslims does not come close to the mass murder in the name of Islam by Muslims in the US. That is a very mild reaction to mass murder. It’s the mildest reaction you could reasonably expect in the real world.

    Tell me, DIB, what if the circumstances were reversed? What if American killer Baptists showed up in Manama and dove an American Airlines jet into a big mall there, killing a few hundred Bahrainis. Would the reaction be as mild? Heck, the Muslim world went ape over a phony report of Koran abuse at Gitmo. What would they do if killer Baptists set up shop in Bahrain and vowed to make the streets run with blood and skies black with poison? Would any Muslims object to that?

    As for a glass Arabia and ideological slavery, DIB, you might want to give the decaffeinated a try.

    DIB: “We’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t, right? Hamas makes statements condemning the bombings, but it’s not valid because it is Hamas, and therefore anyone that says anything remotely similar is immediately disqualified. Clearly taking words at face value is out of the question for your Nixonian paranoia.”

    That’s right, DIB, Hamas is not credible when denouncing terrorism when at the same time it is dispatching suicide bombers to Sbarro’s to blow up children eating pizza. And bragging about it. It’s not just not credible, it’s grotesque. It’s like Hitler denouncing the Holocaust.

    DIB, bullshit counts for nothing. Actions are everything.

    DIB: “This really smacks of “When we want an Arab’s opinion, we’ll give it to them!””

    Oh, please try to be less whiny in the future, DIB.

    Steve

  • 7alaylia
    12 July 2005

    Saudi Mufti

    Saudi Mufti: The Bombings are Prohibited by Islam

    Saudi Mufti Sheikh Abd Al-‘Aziz bin Abdallah bin Muhammad Aal Al-Sheikh issued a communiqué condemning the bombing: “Explosions and damage to the property and lives of peaceful people are forbidden by Islam… Islam is a religion of justice and reconciliation, which brought humanity from darkness to light… Islam brought [to humanity] the honoring of agreements and the prohibition on violating them… Islam brought just treatment [even] of an enemy… Esteemed Muslim clerics in this era have already condemned these abhorrent acts, and have repeatedly announced that the attacks have nothing to do with Islam.”

    [url]https://www.islah400.org/vboard/showthread.php?t=125604[/url] , July 8, 2005.

  • anonymous
    12 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Dont you see that even the moderate Muslims here who would normally back you have had a go at you the last few days? If you alienate even people like this there is no hope you will affect anyone else.[/quote]

    Malik

    I see very few giving you any support. Must are laughing our assess off at you. Good luck Malik your gonna need it.

  • 7alaylia
    12 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Malik
    I see very few giving you any support. Must are laughing our assess off at you. Good luck Malik your gonna need it.[/quote]

    That is fine. This forum is frequented by those who are very moderate in their religion and by a lot of non Muslims, all pretty pro-western, to a fault sometimes. I dont worry about it too much. Judging by the traffic to my site from this site, people here are interested in what I say.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    12 July 2005

    Re(5): Terrorist attacks in London

    JJ,

    You are dodging the question. Perhaps a third or more of the wars currently cooking in the world are Muslims making war against their neighbors. Where Muslims go, war follows. Name a place Muslims have settled where they have not perpetrated terror against their hosts. You can scratch America, Europe, Indonesia, Thailand right from the top.

    Your analogy falls apart on other dimensions as well. Their host societies rejected Jews and forced them to retreat into ghettoes while Muslims reject their host societies and isolate themselves. The Jews did not preach war against their hosts and kill them. Muslims, on the other hand, do.

    While I concede there are good Muslims, there aren’t enough of them. Not enough to form a majority. Whenever I hear a good Muslim speak in a way I admire, they are whispering so the Muslim majority does not do them in.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    12 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik: “Dont you see that even the moderate Muslims here who would normally back you have had a go at you the last few days? If you alienate even people like this there is no hope you will affect anyone else.”

    That’s the big difference between us, Malik. I can accept the fact that people disagree with me and still be my friends. For fundamentalists like you, that is inconceivable. For you, everyone must think alike.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    12 July 2005

    Re: Saudi Mufti

    Does this mean the Saudis are going to stop funding terror bombings like this?

    There’s nothing that gives me a chuckle like hearing Saudis denounce terror. It’s like arsonists denouncing fire.

    Steve

  • 7alaylia
    12 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Malik: “Dont you see that even the moderate Muslims here who would normally back you have had a go at you the last few days? If you alienate even people like this there is no hope you will affect anyone else.”
    That’s the big difference between us, Malik. I can accept the fact that people disagree with me and still be my friends. For fundamentalists like you, that is inconceivable. For you, everyone must think alike.
    Steve[/quote]

    I would suggest that in your viewpoints and the hatred you espouse make you are far more of a radical than I am. I am the one calling for moderation, a review of perspectives, ect. You are the one constantly baying for the blood of whomever you think is the enemy at the moment. You know, leveling all of Saudi Arabia, ect.

    I dont think everyone must think alike, what utter nonsense. Why would I post here if I wanted to only be around people who think like me? This would be the LAST place I would post if I was looking for people with my exact set of beliefs. In my personal life my friends range from non-practicing Muslims, observent Jews, atheists, anarchists, to self professed former soccer hooligans. Hardly a group of people that a religious “fundamentalist” would choose now is it? Why dont you examine your own life Steve? How many people do you interact with on a day to day base, outside of the net, that have belief sets that are opposed to yours? Look at your own life Steve. I can guarantee it is far less diverse than mine.

    I thank God for giving me the life that I have so I have the ability to have been many places, seen many things, and met so many great people. My life has been a journey, but I am much better for it. I suggest Steve that the criticism you level against me would be far more appropriatly directed at a mirror whilst you are looking into it.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    12 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    Anon:”Everyday a child in Africa wakes up thinking is he going to eat that day … Until there is balance brought on the West’s agenda from pure greed and self indulgence to one of more co-operation and giving unfortunately I fear this will not happen and more acts of terror from both sides will occur.”

    Anon, you have your facts scrambled. African children do not go to bed hungry because of the greed and self indulgence of the West but rather the greed and self indulgence of their own leaders who cheat their own people and pocket aid from the West intended to feed them.

    Likewise, there is no more greedier and self indulgent people than the Saudis who are the main source of Islamic terror in the world. I might also point out that the Saudis were made stupendously wealthy by the West, who respected their religion and culture, reprehensible as they were. It is the Saudis who resist cooperation, not the West as you absurdly claim. It is the terrorists spawned by the Wahhabis who reject cooperation of any kind with the West.

    And no amount of cooperation will deter or appease the terrorists adhering to the Wahhabi death cult, which wants all infidels dead or enslaved.

    Steve

  • 7alaylia
    12 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Likewise, there is no more greedier and self indulgent people than the Saudis who are the main source of Islamic terror in the world. I might also point out that the Saudis were made stupendously wealthy by the West, who respected their religion and culture, reprehensible as they were. It is the Saudis who resist cooperation, not the West as you absurdly claim. It is the terrorists spawned by the Wahhabis who reject cooperation of any kind with the West.[/quote]

    If you want to do something other than flap your gums about it, I am sure the Center for Democracy and Human Rights in Saudi Arabia would accept your generous donation. The organisation is run by a Saudi Shi’a. [url]http://www.cdhr.info/ [/url]Or does your interest in Saudi Arabia extend no further than your computer keyboard and calls for the shedding of Saudi blood?

  • anonymous
    12 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    Seems now it is reported all 4 bombers died in the London attacks. The explosives where “military” in origin as well.

  • anonymous
    12 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]And no amount of cooperation will deter or appease the terrorists adhering to the Wahhabi death cult, which wants all infidels dead or enslaved.[/quote]

    And another suicide bomber murdered at least two and least 1 dozen injured in Netanya a few mins ago. Guess Malik’s favorite group the Tamil Tigers are to blame.

  • 7alaylia
    12 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    Report: All Bombers Died in London Attacks

    Tuesday July 12, 2005 4:46 PM

    AP Photo LON128

    By BETH GARDINER

    Associated Press Writer

    LONDON (AP) – Police believe all four bombers who attacked trains and a bus in London died in the attacks, Sky News reported Tuesday, citing unidentified police sources.

    Detectives believe that all four were British citizens, Sky News said. (MORE)

    [url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5135780,00.html[/url]

    [Modified by: Malik (celticview) on July 12, 2005 11:11 AM]

  • 7alaylia
    12 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]And another suicide bomber murdered at least two and least 1 dozen injured in Netanya a few mins ago. Guess Malik’s favorite group the Tamil Tigers are to blame.[/quote]

    Of course I condemn this. Would you care to tell us how many Palestinians have been killed by the Israelis since the last suicide blast, and would you care to comment about where your comments about those deaths are?

    Part of the anger in the Muslim world is the fact that Muslim lives seem to be so cheap, not just to the terrorists, but to the Western media who will cover extensively two dead in Israel but ignore the dozens of Palestinians who have died since the last suicide blast in Israel.

    Condemn both acts and give both acts EQUAL coverage.

  • 7alaylia
    12 July 2005

    Bombs in Spain!

    Explosions at Spanish power plant
    By CNN’s Madrid Bureau Chief Al Goodman

    Tuesday, July 12, 2005 Posted: 1534 GMT (2334 HKT)

    Jose Luis Rodriguez

    MADRID, Spain (CNN) — Four explosions struck a new, soon-to-be-operational electrical power plant in northern Spain on Tuesday.

  • 7alaylia
    12 July 2005

    Re: Bombs in Spain!

    Opps…….guess I should have added this…….

    [b]shortly after warning calls were made in the name of the Basque separatist group ETA, a Basque regional police spokesman told CNN.[/b]
    [url]http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/12/spain.blasts/index.html[/url]

    Not a Muslim or Arab in sight! Reminds me of the days after Tim McVeigh blew up his bomb in Oklahoma and everything it was Muslims. Guess it goes to show you Muslims dont have a corner on bombs or violence.

  • anonymous
    12 July 2005

    Re: Bombs in Spain!

    Appears to be ETA Malik since they called the threat in prior to the explosion.

  • anonymous
    12 July 2005

    Re(1): Bombs in Spain!

    So your jumping for fucking joy you slim shit that is wasn’t Muslims? You are a sick fuck Malik. Then again with your past why doesn’t this surprise me.

  • 7alaylia
    12 July 2005

    Re(2): Bombs in Spain!

    [quote]So your jumping for fucking joy you slim shit that is wasn’t Muslims? You are a sick fuck Malik. Then again with your past why doesn’t this surprise me.
    # [/quote]

    I fail to see any “jumping for joy”. The only jumping here are those who would like us to think that somehow Muslims are more violent than others. A bomb killed two children in Nepal, another one injured people in Trinidad. Not a Muslim in sight. They incidents are sad, it is a violent world and Muslims do not have a corner on that market, no matter how you might want to convince people otherwise.

    The jumping is you to attack me, so settle down Bob.

  • anonymous
    12 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Part of the anger in the Muslim world is the fact that Muslim lives seem to be so cheap, [/quote]

    Cheap to who? Look at all the wars and genocides in the mid-east over the past 25 years. Muslims killing Muslims by the hundreds of thousands. And the Muslim world sees only the injustices of Israel?

    [quote]but to the Western media who will cover extensively two dead in Israel but ignore the dozens of Palestinians who have died since the last suicide blast in Israel.[/quote]

    And Al-Arabiya and Al-jazeera are giving equal courage to Isreali dead? I doubt that.

  • anonymous
    12 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik

    You are so full of shit. A converts zeal to recite x with little thought between the ears. Please if you can’t spout off some new dribble then sit back and have a nice big cup of SHUT THE FUCK UP and the leave the converstation to those who truely care and want to learn.

    We all know your mindset, views and ideals and I would bet 3/4 of the regular posters and readers here can guess what your response will be on any given post.

  • anonymous
    12 July 2005

    Re(1): Bombs in Spain!

    [quote]MALIK:Not a Muslim or Arab in sight! Reminds me of the days after Tim McVeigh blew up his bomb in Oklahoma and everything it was Muslims.[/quote]

    Malik, that was understandable. Islamists had already hit the WTC two years prior.

    Aliandra

  • chalk66x
    12 July 2005

    Re(3): Meet The Dead

    Personally I like the guy in Israel who is advocating everyone smoke a joint. Not gonna work in real life but imagine the conversation after Steve and Malik sitting down smoking a joint 🙂

    billT

  • anonymous
    12 July 2005

    Re(8): Terrorist attacks in London

    Which makes the delight of tapping your house-of-cards belief system that much more fun.

    You, like any Leftist, never see it coming until it’s too late.

  • anonymous
    12 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    I love to read the simple minded opinions of the ignorant. They bring up Palestine, Chechnya all the other so-called Anti-muslim conflicts.

    Palestine was a country made up of a people (The Palestinians) who have never been independant for any significant period time in all of recorded history. They have been ruled over first by the Phoenicians, to the Persians, to the Romans, to the Turks, and then at last to the British. After the second world war the Jews of Europe and in the west in general asked the British to grant them a homeland. Because of the Jewish holocaust (and yes it really did happen, pls. leave your nation of Islam rhetoric for the toilet where it belongs) the British agreed to give them half (give or take) the area known as Palestine because historically it was the Jewish homeland. This is also true for all you conspiracy theorists. Go the the library and read some books on history and Anthropology. In the years that followed the Palestinians decided to wage war against the refugee jews, but lost miserably because they were idiots. In the years following that 3 more wars were fought by the Israelis against the combined might of the surrounding arab world. Yes, the Israelis were helped by the Americans but at the time (as any old timer around here can verify) the Arabs got huge amounts of aid from the USSR. Still with all the aid in funds and weaponery they lost miserably over and over again. Only during the Yom Kippur war did the Arabs have any success.

    Now you expect the Israelis, after being attacked over and over again, to just turn around and give everything they’ve gained back? If you say yes, than I’ll come over to your house beat you up and steal you’re home theatre system. When you get mad, beat me up, come to my house, take back YOUR home theatre system, and then take my car, I’ll expect you to shake hands and give my car back like it was all a big joke. Like the big sucker that you are.

    Chechnya. Chechnya is part of Russian territory and has been for hundreds of years. These so-called Rapes happened on both sides and actually started with Saudi mercenaries raping Russian women and children when they first declared Chechnya an Islamic state back in the 90’s. Yes, my friends. The muslims started the raping. Always remember, a woman taken during war is halal for you to rape. If you don’t believe me look it up in the Quran. If the Russians commit attrocities in Chechnya (which are actually fewer than you have been led to believe) it is only because they are trying to quash a rebellion in their sovreign territory. If a bunch of Indians seized Sitra in Bahrain and declared it the Hindu state of Sitra based on the fact that a lot of laborers live there, what do you think the BDF would do?

    My point in the end is to stop thinking like children and look at things as they are. Politically motivated violence. Islam now is fast becoming a political tool. Look up groups that are strong in Europe like the Hizb ul Tahrir and look at their rhetoric. What are their aims?

    Educate yourselves on Islamic fundamentalism and then come here and talk. All of this BS about the bombings being carried out by one or two crazies is baloney. The numbers of Islamic terrorists are growing everyday, and nobody wants to face up to either this fact or the fact that the root problems lie within the religion itself and not external factors.

    S.

  • anonymous
    12 July 2005

    Re(2): Meet The Dead

    [quote]The people who did these attacks dont care who they kill, Muslim, or otherwise. [/quote]

    To these people, she was no better than a kufr, and perhaps worse, because she was not dressed modestly and was allowed to have opinions.

    Ergo, apostate. Fit for hell, where most women go.

  • anonymous
    12 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    9. The terrorists will have made some seriously stupid mistakes which make it easy to identify and catch some of them.

    “The four men had traveled to London on the day of the blasts and been captured on closed-circuit television footage at King’s Cross station shortly before 8:30 a.m. … Clarke said police had found personal documents with the names of three of the men close to the scenes of three blasts.”

    Reuters

  • anonymous
    12 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    Always the control freak, demanding that people protest or shell out money on your demand.

    There’s not a chance in hell that a buck from me would ever go to anything with “Saudi Arabia” written on it.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    12 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik: “Part of the anger in the Muslim world is the fact that Muslim lives seem to be so cheap, not just to the terrorists, but to the Western media who will cover extensively two dead in Israel but ignore the dozens of Palestinians who have died since the last suicide blast in Israel. Condemn both acts and give both acts EQUAL coverage.”

    Like so much conventional wisdom in the Muslim world, it’s wrong. When’s the last time you saw Americans dancing in the street and passing out candy upon news that Muslims were killed in a terror blast? Never.

    If anything, it is the Muslim world which counts Muslim lives cheaply. Where was the Muslim media coverage when Saddam Hussein was butchering Iraqis by the hundreds of thousands? Nowhere. You didn’t hear a peep out of them. All the coverage came from Western sources.

    Part of the reason you get better media coverage in Israel is that it is a free democracy. You can carry a camera around there. Palestine is not. Photographers can not operate as freely under the Palestinian mafia and their lives are at risk if they cover topics that displease the thugs in charge. For example, when cameramen were taping Palestinians celebrating Sep 11, Arafat’s men sent word to stop taping or they’d be hurt. And really, when was the last time Al Jazeera covered the Israeli victims of Muslim terror? In your own hypocritical words, Malik: Condemn both acts and give both acts EQUAL coverage.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    12 July 2005

    Re(5): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik: “Indonesia. Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world and has never seen a Muslim army of any sort invade its shores. Islam came to Indonesia peacefully on the back traders.”

    Malik, Bali is in Indonesia where the “Laughing Bomber of Bali” exterminated a disco full of infidels and laughed about his guilt in court. His fellow Muslims went on to bomb the Marriot in Jakarta.

    Try again.

    Malik: “But I guess this begs the question, if “establishing a community without making a war on their hosts” is a bonafide of being a peaceful society, doesnt that leave the US out? Unless you contend that the European presence that became the US was done without making war on their hosts? I am sure American Indians would beg to differ. The US was formed out of a number of wars, against the British, the French, the Mexicans. Your own criteria makes the US illegitimate. I am sure you will contend that this isnt so….. “Indians” were or were not this or that……for all of your verbal acrobats all that will do is expose your hypocrisy.”

    The only thing exposed here is your ignorance of history. It was the Indians who made war on the European settlers. The cycle of violence is pretty much the same in the history of the US with regard to the Indians: Nomadic Indians in hunting or war parties attack an isolated cabin or settlement, kill everyone, and hit the trail. The neighbors pursue them but lose them. This is repeated for a few years until a military expedition is mounted against the Indians. The Indians also had some nasty habits such as casually killing infants, gang-raping women, and kidnapping children to raise as their own. There was a reason why settlers were told to save the last bullet for themselves.

    You might also recall that it was the British who made war on the colonists, not the other way around. The American colonists wanted only the rights they had in England.

    There is not an American state taken by conquest. They all voted to become part of the United States, usually after determined campaigns to become one.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    12 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    Quote:

    An incorrect perception. War is not terrorism. The West does not deliberately target civilians for political gain. In the West, behavior that is out of line with the established norms of international law (not “international law” as seen by non-lawyers who have never read international law) are punished.

    Ethan, what International Law? is this the same International Law which was contravened by the United States and it’s allies on it’s recent attack on Iraq? Is this the same International Law which was broken by US Soldiers (UN Gevena Convention on Human Rights) in Abu Gharaib? Is this the same International Law which is being laughed at by the Isreali occupation of Palestinian Land?

    your and you ilk are very naive and short sighted you only see things from your perspective, if you take a look at International Laws whether they be trade, human rights or environmental they are heavily skewed in favour of Westen powers, and when Western powers feel the International Laws they created get in their way they override them. Examples of which I have given above.

    I accept any form of teror is abhorent whether they be state sponsored as in the case of the US war in Iraq, or Israeli occupation of Palestine or indeed terror caused by indivuduals/groups for their own political agenda. Think about you say!

  • anonymous
    12 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    dear sir,
    we are students and are currently discussing about the subject in hand. We appreciate your point of view and consider this event an atrocity which will leave a deep scar upon all humanity.
    We are deeply heartfelt and sympathise with the victims and our condolences are with their love ones.

  • anonymous
    12 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik: “Islam does not cause suicide bombings anymore than Hinduism has cause the Tamil Tigers to be the most prolific suicide bombers until the US invaded Iraq. What are you suggestions then? You seem to be arguing that Islam is what drives people to do these attacks? You said “They are young educated muslims. What seperates a young educated muslim from anybody else? Yup, you guessed it Islam.” I think you generalise way too much.”

    Malik, I regret to inform you that all the psycho Muslims did not get your memo that Islam does not cause terror. For example, Mohammed Bouyeri, the assassin of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, was pleased to tell a Dutch court this week, “I take complete responsibility for my actions. I acted purely in the name of my religion. I can assure you that one day, should I be set free, I would do exactly the same, exactly the same.”

    Malik, please write Mr. Bouyeri and inform him that he did not hack van Gogh to death for Islam like he thinks, but because of American foreign policy or Palestine or because somebody dropped a Koran at Gitmo or some of that other silly crap you’ve been trying to sell us. Mr. Bouyeri doesn’t know the jihad is all about politics. He thinks he’s killing people for Islam.

    Bouyeri did not have any sympathy for van Gogh’s mother either. He told her in court:
    “I cannot feel for you … because I believe you are a non-believer.”

    Steve

  • 7alaylia
    12 July 2005

    Re(6): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]While I concede there are good Muslims, there aren’t enough of them. Not enough to form a majority. Whenever I hear a good Muslim speak in a way I admire, they are whispering so the Muslim majority does not do them in.[/quote]

    Complete and utter sectarian tripe! Mahmood was right, as long as you seek to inspire hatred no one is going to pay you any mind.

  • 7alaylia
    12 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Ethan,
    You can convince me by naming one country on the planet where Muslims have established a community without making war on their hosts.[/quote]

    Indonesia. Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world and has never seen a Muslim army of any sort invade its shores. Islam came to Indonesia peacefully on the back traders.

    But I guess this begs the question, if “establishing a community without making a war on their hosts” is a bonafide of being a peaceful society, doesnt that leave the US out? Unless you contend that the European presence that became the US was done without making war on their hosts? I am sure American Indians would beg to differ. The US was formed out of a number of wars, against the British, the French, the Mexicans. Your own criteria makes the US illegitimate.

    I am sure you will contend that this isnt so….. “Indians” were or were not this or that……for all of your verbal acrobats all that will do is expose your hypocrisy.

  • 7alaylia
    12 July 2005

    Re(5): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]

    The same thing would and has happened in the USA, albeit usually with more due process than is present in Palestine at the moment. You need to understand how Palestinian society works. No family would allow a family member to be killed for “saying nice things.”

    And I wonder why there is no due process? Oh wait.. because Palesinian civil society is suffused with people who will kill you for any number of things. I could point to the honor killings or the extrajudicial lynchings, but you won’t believe me, even if presented with a link from al-BBC.
    And by the by, your harping about who you know is getting annoying.
    I happen to know 15 Arabs, North Americans, Europeans and Africans who agree with me. [/quote]

    If you hear something loud it is me sitting here laughing at you. Do you realise how stupid the above statement looks? Did you actually go out and do a poll? I can see Ethan saying “hey, I have talked to you a couple of times. This American guy on the net doesnt really think I know what I am talking about. Can I explain this to you and can you tell me whether or not you agree so I can go tell him that you do?” What is your percentage of error? Plus or minus one of two Africans or Arabs? ROTFLMAO! Desperate Ethan, desperate, but worth a good laugh at this time in the morning, thanks. Oh, and your rhetorical “al-BBC’ was worth a good chuckle. One always knows when they are winning the fight when the opposition is forced to make up names and nicknames for things. Thanks again for the laughs.

  • anonymous
    12 July 2005

    Re(7): Terrorist attacks in London

    Didn’t Mahmood ask you not to post on this thread anymore Malik?

  • 7alaylia
    12 July 2005

    Re(3): You go to the podium with the statements you have, not the statements you want

    [quote]Sure, if you are simplistically talking about land mass size.

    Which I am. Saudi Arabia is roughly 80% of the Peninsula. However, in Yemen, conversion is also frowned upon. I can’t speak for the less citified areas of Bahrain, Qatar or the UAE, but I’m pretty sure that converts aren’t as accepted as they are in the US. [/quote]

    You are doing good for my sense of humour this morning Ethan. You go from talking about state sanctioned death of converts to it being “frowned upon.” Hint, conversion to Islam in America is “frowned upon” as well. I can send you to half a dozen American converts who lost their whole family and friends when they converted. Besides, this “sympathy” with the plight of converts is just another way to attack Islam, unless you are ready to rail against India. Let me remind you that it is actually a crime in some Indian states to convert. But that is okay for you eh? As long as it isnt Muslims showing intolerance you seem to be fine with it.

    [quote]

    So when you know that the US wiped out a whole extended family at a wedding in Iraq does that mean they have no moral standing to speak? How do YOU justify the civilian “collateral” damaged caused by US military actions?

    Captain Malik! Defender of the Weak! Master of Equivalence! Or something.
    The day a US fighter pilot says the following exchange:
    Pilot: “Base, this is Alpha One, A Muslim Wedding Part is below. Permission to bomb the fuck out of them?”
    Ground control: “Granted.”[/quote]

    I fail to see the difference between callous indifference and deliberately targeting people. The effect and the causes are the same. Massive civilian deaths because the aggressor just doesn’t care.

    [quote]

    Arent the very purpose of military actions to terrorise the enemy?

    No. That’s the purpose of Mohammed’s military actions – to attack peaceful Jews or Meccans and create a wide slaughter in the land before taking his concubines. But nice try.
    I severely doubt that you can even make the logical equivocation between a terrorist and US military action in Iraq and Afghanistan. It’s just not there. Except in your twisted view of reality. [/quote]

    As best said by someone who has no experience working with the military. The goal of any operation is to terrorise the enemy, first into not fighting, and second into not fighting well.

    [quote]

    I see precious little difference between terrorists who target civilians and a superpower that doesnt even care enough to count the number of civilians it kills.

    Then you are blind.
    Firstly, it is not the responsibility of an army to keep an accurate tally of civilian casualties.
    It is the responsibility of an army NOT TO TARGET CIVILIANS SPECIFICALLY. [/quote]

    I disagree. There is scant difference between deliberately targeting civilians and the callous indifference marked by US troops in Iraq.

  • Steelangel
    12 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Islam does not cause suicide bombings anymore than Hinduism has cause the Tamil Tigers to be the most prolific suicide bombers until the US invaded Iraq.[/quote]

    Not to take a page from Steve’s playbook, but MEMRI got play outside of the Jihadwatch/LGF blogs today. This was up on Instapundit – and it’s damning. As all on MEMRI is. I just wish people would read.

    http://www.memri.org/bin/opener_latest.cgi?ID=SD93205

    [b]Al-Siba’i: “The term ‘civilians’ does not exist in Islamic religious law. Dr. Karmi is sitting here, and I am sitting here, and I’m familiar with religious law. There is no such term as ‘civilians’ in the modern Western sense. People are either of [i]Dar Al-Harb[/i] or not.[/b]

    [b]Al-Siba’i: “The problem lies with the religious scholars. When they are asked to confront these [ Mujahideen ], to talk with them and respond to the evidence they present. [The Mujahideen ] tell the Prophet drove nails into and gouged out the eyes of people from the ‘Urayna Tribe. [i]They were merely a group of thieves[/i] who stole from sheep herders, and [i]the Prophet drove nails into them and threw them into the Al-Hrara area, and left them there to die. He blinded them and cut off their opposite legs and arms. This is what the Prophet did on a trifling matter[/i] – let alone in war. What else could they do when a 1000 lb. bomb lands on a house or a shack belonging to poor people, and the world doesn’t shed a tear, but cries only about the slaughtering? All they have is a knife… “[/b]

    I don’t expect Malik to understand.
    But I’m sure someone will.

  • 7alaylia
    12 July 2005

    Re(8): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Didn’t Mahmood ask you not to post on this thread anymore Malik?[/quote]

    I took his request to mean not to talk about the London Bombings, the title of this thread, which I have not done. Considering Mahmood participated in this thread yesterday and responded to myself and others and didnt mention anything I would think that is what he meant as well.

    What is the issue? This board, for the most part, has a pretty similiar outlook amoungst its posters, do you not like a differing view point? If so, feel free not to read any of my posts. That is what freedom of speech is all about, not about silencing other’s opinion’s who differ from yours.

    For many that is where “freedom of speech” ends, when you voice opinions that differ from theirs.

  • anonymous
    12 July 2005

    Re(9): Terrorist attacks in London

    Groundhog Day all over again.

  • Steelangel
    12 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]is this the same International Law which was contravened by the United States and it’s allies on it’s recent attack on Iraq?[/quote]

    I seem to recall the fact that Iraq’s violation of the sanctions imposed by the UN was a [i]causus belli[/i].
    The UN, controlled by morons who prefer to intellectually masturbate over terms such as genocide as many thousands are killed in Africa, refused to live up to their JOB (probably because they were making a lot of quid on Saddam’s oil dole).

    [quote]I accept any form of teror is abhorent whether they be state sponsored as in the case of the US war in Iraq, or Israeli occupation of Palestine or indeed terror caused by indivuduals/groups for their own political agenda. Think about you say![/quote]

    Uniformed soldiers representing a nation-state are not terrorists, and do not commit terrorist acts in commission of their orders. Full stop. Your argument is semantically wrong. Even if their orders are to attack civilians. That is a War Crime, not Terrorism.

    A terrorist is an ununiformed soldier who does not necessarily represent a nation-state that performs attacks specifically targeted at civilians.

  • 7alaylia
    12 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Groundhog Day all over again.[/quote]

    Indeed, but it just isnt me. Steve, Ethan, all of the regulars are saying and taking the same line they always do. Why single me out? Maybe because my regular line is one you dont agree with? If you have an issue with hearing the same thing over and over again please address everyone who does it, not just me. When you do it would seem to me that you are not so tired of hearing repetitive arguments as you are tired of hearing the argument from one side.

    Indeed, others “regular” line has become so tiresome and hateful that even some of the usuals are taking exception with it.

  • anonymous
    12 July 2005

    Re: Meet The Dead

    More details of the dead of London, including Shahara Akther Islam, 20, a Muslim daughter of Bangladeshi immigrants, who was on her way to work at a bank. She never arrived. Her family thinks she was on the the Circle line train just beyond Aldgate station when it detonated at 8:51am on Thursday.

    Her uncle, Nazmul Hasan, talked about his niece:
    “She’s a lovely girl, really feminine. But she didn’t want to go to university – she just wanted to start working so she could spend money. She loves her Burberry and Gucci handbags. She doesn’t wear a hijab, she wears Western clothes, but she is very close to her family, her mother especially. She doesn’t have a boyfriend. She is a lovely, well-behaved girl – she has her own opinions and she can hold her own in any company, but she’s not a ladette, and we all absolutely adore her. The whole family is just completely devastated. If we had a body, if we knew she was dead, at least we would be able to start mourning. If she was injured really badly, at least we could be there for her in hospital. What tortures us is the fact that the police say that there are still bodies in the tunnel. I keep thinking, what if she is lying there, still alive, still just breathing, but needing help, and nobody is coming for her? This is the worst situation to be in.”

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    12 July 2005

    Re(6): Terrorist attacks in London

    Actually, Malik, Ethan was making sport of you but the joke flew over your head.

    The rest of us got it though.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    12 July 2005

    Re(7): Terrorist attacks in London

    And HENCE, GROUNDHOG day all over again with Malik.

  • anonymous
    13 July 2005

    Trackback :: Terrorism in London

    TrackBack from Emir’s Weblog

    Firstly, thanks for the concern expressed by each one of you, I still haven’t finished replying to all the sms, emails, phone calls, smoke signals and pigeons sent throughout the day asking if I was still alive. Obviously I was…

  • anonymous
    13 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    Maybe you can tell us, where, to listen? There have been no protests, no evidence from the Islamic Community as a whole, in London or anywhere else, to indicate heartfelt sadness and anger, that their community is being painted with a terrorist brush, by their own.

    I live in Sydney. We protested against the involvement of Australia in Iraq. I have never seen so many people out on the streets on a sunday. We could not get on a bus, which is very unusual on a sunday, because the bus after bus were packed with protesters, from children, to the very elderly. We ended up hitch hiking into town and, were given a lift, by another family of protesters.

    We jammed into crowded parks, something I hate, crowds. I have not hitch hiked ever in my life before and at 56 years of age, I would have preferred to have a relaxed sunday, but, my heartfelt belief, that the invasion was wrong, because “innocent civilians” would be harmed, along with all the other thousands of ordinary Australians, pushed me beyond my comfort zone.

    It is, the ordinary, perhaps “protesters” who get killed, or maimed, or psychologically damaged for life in these horrendous cowardly attacks, yet, your community has yet to show any such solidarity or care in return. Actions speak louder than, that cannot be heard in our community.

    Kathy

  • 7alaylia
    13 July 2005

    Re(6): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]The shining light here as far as this issue is concerned is Turkey, followed by Tunisia and Morocco.[/quote]

    Indeed, but how to do this and retain human rights? Tunisia, Morocco and Turkey all have awful human rights records. Not just in their repression of religious rights, but also of ethnic minorities, ie Kurds in Turkey and the Western Sahara in the case of Morocco. All three of these countries need to learn that you can seperate mosque and state without banning people’s right to practice their religion. In Turkey women are forbidden from wearing hijab in government buildings or in school. This is not a proper model to work upon. To truely free and open society, free from religious influence in government, would allow the open and free practice of religion.

    In Turkey police used to walk the streets and arrest people wearing beards and pluck them out hair by hair to punish the wearer for his religious beliefs. Such a path to seperation of mosque and state will not work anywhere in the Middle East or Muslim world today.

    [quote]However, as the Gulf states in particular are so intwined with clerics to bolster and perpetuate their rule, one or the other has to go for us to move forward. I would like to see the situation where the clerics go. Or at least disconnect them from politics. I know it’s difficult, but it is doable.[/quote]

    I think often the rule of these leaders and the religious establishment is so closely connected that if one goes the other will go with it as a matter of course. I dont not think that is really such a bad thing. I think the majority of governments in the area have failed thei people as have their religious leaders. Whether through mismanagement or outright greed and corruption a grave disservice has been done to the peoples of these countries.

    A free and open democracy with Islam as the nominal “state” religion, as is being proposed in Iraq, is the only solution.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    13 July 2005

    Meet The Killers

    Meet Shehzad Tanweer, 22, who blew up the subway train at Aldgate, East London. He is the one who murdered Shahara Akther Islam, among many others. He lived with his parents in Beeston, Leeds. He was a college graduate, interested in cricket. His friends tell us he was a good Muslim.

    Hasib Hussain, 19, is also from Beeston, Leeds. He blew up the No 30 bus in Tavistock Square. Hasib screwed up his mission, either missing his train or getting cold feet, boarding a bus instead. His bomb didn’t detonate until an hour after his buddies.

    Mohammed Sadique Khan, 30, was from Dewsbury. He did the Edgware Road train. There was a fourth one, a teenager, who destroyed the Piccadilly Line train near King’s Cross. He’s too charred to identify at the moment.

    They’re all “lily whites,” “clean skins,” local guys with no records. They’re all from West Yorkshire. The surveillance cameras caught them in King’s Cross station, laughing and chatting, before they split up to perpetrate mass murder. They are all British citizens of Pakistani origin.

    These clueless mopes did not plan this out themselves. How stupid do you have to be to sit with your bomb and kill yourself rather than drop it under a seat and leave? They were operated by somebody who is probably long gone from England, somebody who knows how to manipulate dumb young guys. He probably met them far away from King’s Cross and sent them on their way with a pep talk. They surely didn’t make their own bombs. Somebody had to do that for them. And they had to be recruited by somebody, probably at a local mosque.

    The police think a team of four to six terrorists from the Middle East entered the country on phony papers, did the advance work for the attack, were introduced to the mules, and trained them to be bomb fodder.

    Steve

    [Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on July 12, 2005 09:17 PM]

  • kategirl
    13 July 2005

    Re(10): Terrorist attacks in London

    I agree with Steve. I’m not sure exactly what belief DIB adheres to, but he seems like a pretty civilized and orthodox fellow.

  • anonymous
    13 July 2005

    Re(2): Meet The Dead

    Easy does it Malik.

    She did NOT die a martyr in the struggle agasint terror. She died a victim. Period.

    JJ

  • anonymous
    13 July 2005

    Re(3): Meet The Dead

    JJ

    Thanks for once again gently telling Malik to go play in Freeway Traffic.

  • chalk66x
    13 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    Mahmood
    Blogs to the left of me Blogs to the right of me, here I am stuck in the middle with you.

    Seriously thanks for letting the posts play out without resorting to the old delete finger. By the way which finger do you use 🙂 Which brings up another thought in my getting to know arab culture. In the US we just use the middle finger for the gesture, can you tell us or show us how its done in the arab world. Also are you ever planning on getting a recipe section going? It looked promising for a while but ended up in the same flame war as always.

    billT

    [Modified by: billT (billT) on July 13, 2005 12:26 PM]

  • 7alaylia
    13 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]I seem to recall the fact that Iraq’s violation of the sanctions imposed by the UN was a causus belli.
    The UN, controlled by morons who prefer to intellectually masturbate over terms such as genocide as many thousands are killed in Africa, refused to live up to their JOB (probably because they were making a lot of quid on Saddam’s oil dole). [/quote]

    Your use of UN resolutions is actually one of the major anger points amoungst people. The US has used these resolutions to justify its attack of Iraq, yet supports Israel with billions of dollars of arms and cash every year when Israel has many more long standing UN Resolutions than Iraq ever thought about. Just a few:

    UN General Assembly Draft Resolution on Jerusalem
    November 30, 2004

    Resolution A/ES-10/L.18/Rev.1
    July 21, 2004

    Proposed UN Security Council Resolution Condemning Sheikh Yassin Assassination
    March 26, 2004

    Text of UN Resolution on Iraq
    November 11, 2002

    Text of Chapter VII of UN Charter
    November 11, 2002

    The Right of the Palestinian People to Self-determination [Draft Resolution]
    November 08, 2002

    Text of Mideast Resolution Adopted by UN Council
    September 24, 2002

    UN Resolution 1397 (2002)
    March 12, 2002

    Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements
    September 13, 1993

    U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION 338
    October 22, 1973
    [url]
    http://www.miftah.org/CatIndex.cfm?CategoryID=9%5B/url%5D

    As to terrorism, and act of terrorism is any act meant to drive terror into people. There is such a thing called state sponsored terrorism, heck the US even believes in such a concept as it has acused others of this act.

  • anonymous
    13 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    Your attempt to intellectually masturbate this topic has once again left you hanging at half mast Malik. Spare us you whimsical pounding and blame game please. You shouldn’t go to bed with a whore like the UN unless your ready to feel the perpetual drip for the rest of your life. Or have you made that error already???

  • 7alaylia
    13 July 2005

    Re(5): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Your attempt to intellectually masturbate this topic has once again left you hanging at half mast Malik. Spare us you whimsical pounding and blame game please. You shouldn’t go to bed with a whore like the UN unless your ready to feel the perpetual drip for the rest of your life. Or have you made that error already???[/quote]

    You cannot have it both ways. You cannot use UN actions to justify the attack on Iraq and discount the other UN actions. Either you take it all or leave it all. You cannot discredit the UN and then use their actions to justify your actions.

  • anonymous
    14 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    Well done Ashoor, that’s what the ordinary, hurting Brits need to hear. The politics and religious reasons behind this, are secondary to the most human need, comfort and support at a time of deep grief and to hear an Arab Muslim, expressing outrage. God bless you. Kats

  • Marlene
    14 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    [Noon on Thurs. July 12th there will be a 2 min. moment of silence at noon GMT. As a resident of the Pacific time zone, I will silently be asleep, so I will start off here 9 hours early after 281 comments.]

    ….

  • mahmood
    14 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    It’s the universal gesture! We use it as well as every other person on Earth probably. As to the recipes, when I can safely boil water, I’ll start a section going. At the moment I’m much more into gardening, or at least for now garden maintenance (ie, getting the chequebook out!) We’ll see how that plays out.

    You’re right, this conversation started in a very positive manner, then descended with the usual culprits about Islam this and Islam that. As two of those culprits have their own blogs now, I fail to see the reason why they can’t just link to a comment/article and carry on conversations on their own blogs! Can you imagine what their conversations are going to be like if they discovered Skype? Too funny!

    I’m going to pay someone to create an “ignore” filter. Until then, we’ll just have to enact that filter ourselves manually.

  • anonymous
    14 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    The British in someways derserve it, cause they are paying a price for too much tolerance.
    I mean they have take political correctness too far. These people, or muslims, or whatever cloak they use to protect themselves, if they don’t share the values of a country or dont like, then fine, pack up and leave. If it was upto me, i would round these muslims up and i would deport them, back to the ”wonderful” countries they came from such as pakistan, morroco, or egypt. they wouldn’t last 1 minute there and would be begging to come back.

    they way you deal with these losers, is the way israel does and terrify them so much they shake in their boots, if the word Israel is uttered. Britain needs to do the same, but alas is too tolerant and touchy feely for that.

  • anonymous
    14 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    Dear all,(and Mahmood I hope u read this)

    The situation in today’s world can be compared to the situation in the 1930’s when a fanatic took chances in his country and became chancellor of Germany by claiming the Aryan race to be superior (The world leaders then tried appeasment which made him stronger). Today osama is the face and his close band of brothers is trying to do the same and he is hijacking Islam with the tacit support of a few fellow believers as they believe that they will conquer the world and clense it of all infidels.

    The West played into the hands of the terrorists when they turned a blind eye as bombs were going off elsewhere(palestine, kashmir etc) and now they notice because blood is on their streets?

    A few points for your kind consideration :

    1. Osama has been trained by the Americans during the Afghan war? So is this a case of past misdeeds rebounding?

    2. As in the past are we seeking a fight among religions or is it simply a clash of cultures?or the power hungry seek to destabilise the world for their own benefit.

    3. Osama is in Pakistan or wherever…….. is there a sinister motive behind not bringing him to justice?

    4. Insurgents extremists do not own factories manufacturing bombs guns rocket launchers etc. ? So can we please guess where the arms and ammunition is coming from?goverments?which ones?

    5. America still supports Pakistan even when they know that it is a hotbed of terrorism. The Inter Services Intelligence of the biggest supporter of terrorism and has immense clout in the Pakistani establishment.

    6. Shouldnt America warn and then invade Pakistan to stop it’s terrorist factories?Pak makes a better case than Afghanistan or Iraq I think as it has nuclear, chemical and biological weapons ? is it afraid of China intervening to save Pakistan?

    There are many more questions still to be posed…..

    In a war only the innocents suffer the most.

    RIP

  • anonymous
    14 July 2005

    Re(4): You go to the podium with the statements you have, not the statements you want

    [quote]There is scant difference between deliberately targeting civilians and the callous indifference marked by US troops in Iraq.[/quote]

    The only people being callously indifferent in Iraq are terrorists who chuck bombs into groups of children. Yep, those same children being given candy by those indifferent US troops.

  • anonymous
    15 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    Oh god, what a great level of bravery. Writing anonymously……..

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    21 July 2005

    New Bombings In London

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/21/AR2005072100474.html

    No fatalities. One injury, possibly one of the bombers.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    21 July 2005

    [color=red]London Attacked Today[/color]

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1702712,00.html

    Possible copycats.

    Update: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,163186,00.html

    Bombs real, but smaller than those of two weeks ago. Injured man followed to hospital by police. He may have been a bomber injured by the detonator going off in his backpack.

    [Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on July 21, 2005 09:45 AM]

    Update:
    All four attacks close to simultaneous
    http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005330614,00.html

    Photo of Targeted No. 26 Bus, Area Evacuated
    http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005330603,00.html

    Analysis: Copy Cat or Terror Campaign?
    Reuters wonders if the bombs left in the terrorists’ car from the last attack were meant to be picked up by a second group that were thwarted by the swift discovery of the car by police
    http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-07-21T150406Z_01_SCH154208_RTRUKOC_0_SECURITY-BRITAIN-COPY.xml

    [Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on July 21, 2005 09:57 AM]

    Eyewitness Statements
    Three men struggling in Tube car with a fourth man
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1702788,00.html

    Bomber Chased Out Of Oval Station
    “”He was a skinny Asian and young, about 19.”
    http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13391047,00.html

    [Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on July 21, 2005 10:12 AM]

    Eyewitnesses: “I saw an Asian man reaching towards his backpack, when it exploded with a bright light. He appeared shocked, and dumped the bag almost immediately and fled the seen. Three people around him attempted to prevent him leaving, but failed.”
    http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1189836,00.html

    [Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on July 21, 2005 10:17 AM]

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    22 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    In case nobody pointed it out, let me note here that the backlash London Muslims predicted came true but in the form they claimed. Instead of Brits attacking Muslims because of the bombings, the backlash turned out to be more Muslim bombings of Brits.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    22 July 2005

    Muslim Bomber Dies A Coward

    Those fabulous Brits ran down one of the Islamist psychopaths this morning and shot him dead on the Tube:

    “Mark Whitby said: “I was sitting on the train… I heard a load of noise, people saying, ‘Get out, get down’. I saw an Asian guy. He ran on to the train, he was hotly pursued by three plain clothes officers, one of them was wielding a black handgun. He half tripped… they pushed him to the floor and basically unloaded five shots into him,” he told BBC News 24. As [the suspect] got onto the train I looked at his face, he looked sort of left and right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit, a cornered fox. [b]He looked absolutely petrified [/b]and then he sort of tripped, but they were hotly pursuing him, [they] couldn’t have been any more than two or three feet behind him at this time and he half tripped and was half pushed to the floor and the policeman nearest to me had the black automatic pistol in his left hand. He held it down to the guy and unloaded five shots into him. He [the suspect] had a baseball cap on and quite a sort of thickish coat – it was a coat you’d wear in winter, sort of like a padded jacket. He might have had something concealed under there, I don’t know. But it looked sort of out of place with the sort of weather we’ve been having, the sort of hot humid weather. He was largely built, he was quite a chubby sort of guy. I didn’t see any guns or anything like that – I didn’t see him carrying anything. I didn’t even see a bag to be quite honest. I got into the ticket hall. I was approached by a policeman and London Underground staff asking me if I needed counselling. I was just basically saying I’ve just seen a man shot dead. I’ve seen a man shot dead. I was distraught, totally distraught. It was no less than five yards away from where I was sitting. I actually saw it with my own eyes.”

    BBC News

    He was a big brave terrorist when he was sneaking a bomb on board a train to kill women and children but when he came face to face with the police, he died like the snivelling little punk that he was.

    I can’t tell you how satisfying this is. And it’s worth sitting back and considering that this American cowboy stuff, actually shooting the bad guys, works way better than touchy-feely political correctness.

    More dead bombers, please.

    Steve

    [Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on July 22, 2005 07:30 AM]

  • anonymous
    22 July 2005

    Re: Muslim Bomber Dies A Coward

    When Brits say “Asian” do they mean Pakistanis? I guess I am going by the American definition of Asian, meaning Chinese or Korean, although I doubt the Chinese would be dropping bombs in London busses.

    Aliandra

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    22 July 2005

    Re(1): Muslim Bomber Dies A Coward

    Yup. Asian=Pakistani.

    Steve

    PS. Here’s an account of a London commuter coming facing to face with one of yesterdays incompetent Islamist psychos after his bomb misfired.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    22 July 2005

    Photos Of Yesterday’s Bombers

    Here are photos of yesterday’s bombers, caught in the act by CCTV in the Tube.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    22 July 2005

    What The Bombings Are All About

    Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed, the “The Tottenham Ayatollah” of north London, founder of the British branch of Hizb ut-Tahrir, a self-described non-violent political party dedicated to creating an Islamic caliphate centered on the Middle East:

    “I would like to see the Islamic flag fly, not only over number 10 Downing Street, but over the whole world.”

    One bomb at a time.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    24 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    Steve, they shot the wrong person as you know now!

    A Brazilian who wasn’t connected at all with the bombs…., a student living legally in the UK….

    As someone popped this question on another forum in Bahrain… who should we be scared of now?

    Terrorists or the Police?

    ~strav.

  • anonymous
    24 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    Why didn’t he stop when ordered by the Police to do so Strav? Why was he wearing such a heavy coat on such a warm day? I understand he also had a connection to the same building as the bombers did. All reports say he spoke and understood ENGLISH just fine by the way.

    Don’t play the who the fuck should we be scared of now game Strav.

    [b]Bombers 50+ Police 1 on the body count[/b] and that is just in the UK. How many died in Egypt? Let me guess Strav that the Police did that?

    It is sad that what appears to be an innocent person was killed by the Police. But given the state of things in London and the World does this surprise you?

  • anonymous
    24 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    i think strav has a point.

    and steve, there were hate crimes perpetuated against moslems in the uk.

    hate breeds hate.

  • anonymous
    24 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    “Why didn’t he stop when ordered by the Police to do so Strav?”
    – why didn’t the police reveal their identity? don’t forget they were in plainclothes!

    “Why was he wearing such a heavy coat on such a warm day?”
    – he was brazilian, it’s the Uk – quite normal for him or anyone who wasn’t born in the UK or grown up there to feel cold on a day thought or defined as hot by UK standards… (i used to wear a warm furry coat in July/August in Reading in the UK and when i used to take the tube to Camden passing Seven Sisters on the underground – i’d get strange looks from the commuters – because according to them it was summer, for me the weather in July/August in the UK was cold)

    “But given the state of things in London and the World does this surprise you?”
    The police (in London) at point blank range, fired 5 bullets to his head? Does this surprise you?

    Don’t get me wrong! I’m not for or supporting those people who blow themselves and other innocent people up! And at the same time I don’t support those in the Police force who kill innocent people for no reason whatsoever!

    As for the Metro Police Commissioner who said, just hours after the shooting, that the Brazilian was ‘directly connected’ to the bombings in London – why ever does he (a person with such responsibility) have to make assumptions before the facts are determined?

    Just how will the Metro Police justify shooting down an innocent person??

    ~strav.

  • anonymous
    25 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    He had lived in the UK for 5 years.(legal as well) Plenty of time to become acclimated to the climate and customs of the country.

  • anonymous
    25 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]JASRA: More tolerace, more freedom of speech, [/quote]

    Jasra,

    I would not say Europe has more tolerance. The anti-smitism that was the feature of Nazi Germany and which was rather common throughout Europe, caused great strife and murder.

    Today, the European Muslim communities are notoriously unassimilated, especially in France. Just the other day, a news show reported that 25% of British Muslims felt alienated from the British culture. Other European countries are tightening up their asylum laws and are working to better integrate their Muslim populations. More freedom of speech? Not quite. Oriana Fallaci got into legal trouble just for saying things that offended others.

    [quote]and a much more complex and richer understanding of hisotry and culture [/quote]

    The Europeans spent half the last century engaged in massive tribal warfare that left over 20 million dead. Communism, fascism, Nazism … all of this “richness” caused plenty of strife.

    Aliandra

  • 7alaylia
    25 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    CAIR-CAN: CANADIAN IMAMS TO CONDEMN TERRORISM
    Marina Jiménez, Globe and Mail, 7/21/05

    In an unprecedented move, 120 Canadian imams and other Islamic religious leaders from across the country will release a statement today denouncing terrorism and vowing to confront religious extremism.

    The declaration, coordinated by the Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-CAN), will be released at a news conference at a downtown Toronto mosque following noontime prayers. Imams from Calgary, Newfoundland and Toronto will attend.

    The planned statement comes several days after Britain’s largest Sunni Muslim group issued a fatwa — a binding religious edict — condemning the July 7 bombings on the London Underground and a double-decker bus that killed at least 56. The attacks were carried out by four suicide bombers, three British-born men of Pakistani origin and a Jamaican-Briton.

    Organizations representing Canada’s 600,000 Muslims have struggled to articulate a co-ordinated response to jihadi Islam, and today marks the first time such a large group of imams from diverse ethnic backgrounds will issue what is expected to be a similar fatwa or declaration condemning the bombings as un-Islamic. (MORE)

  • 7alaylia
    25 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]I’m not convinced Iraq is quite in a civil war yet, despite the Sunnis best efforts. The Shia seem to be holding the line on retaliation. So far.[/quote]

    28 people a die are dying in Baghdad alone. Many of these deaths, and others like them around the country, are “tit for tat” sectarian killings. There is indeed a low level civil war raging in Iraq. Assasinations of religious and community leaders are very common, and based on nothing more than religious background.

    [quote]I’m absolutely convinced that retaining the Iraqi Army intact would have been catastrophic. That would be preserving the dark heart of Baathist/Sunni control over the country. As soon as we pulled out, the old Iraqi army would have made a coup to install a new Baathist/Sunni dictator. The army had to be disbanded and new one formed, just as we did in Germany and Japan after WWII. [/quote]

    No one is talking about keeping the high level Baathists around. What was needed was for the common troops and mid level commanders to be kept. This was done in Germany as well after WW2. It would have been impossible to run Germany, and now Iraq, if you exclude members of a political party which people were forced to join if they wanted employment and wanted to succede. The US and allied forces used many former Nazi Party members in all levels of government and civil society. Heck, the US even brought many of them over here, they helped put the US into space!

    [quote]You could never get to the new Iraq with the old Iraqi army, any more than you could build a democratic Germany by preserving the Waffen SS or a democratic Japan by preserving its army and its bushido culture. It’s better in the long run to start fresh rather than to try to reshape an existing organization.[/quote]

    But Steve, former regime elements in Germany and Japan formed the basis for both of those countries militaries after the war. You do not know this? You think that the Bundeswehr in 1950 had no former Nazi or Wehrmacht soldiers? They had large amounts of them because it is perfectly clear that you cannot form a military from scratch without taking years and years to do so. We are learning this in Iraq as we speak. The only Iraqi units worth anything are Kurdish peshmerga. No one is saying we should have kept the Iraqi Republican Guard together(closest thing to a Waffen SS) but the standard army units certainly should have been. Many of them were filled with Shi’a and others that certainly could have been counted on.

    [quote]I also disagree that we have not sent enough troops. There’s more of a danger of sending too many troops, of taking over the war in Iraq as we took over the war in Vietnam. If the Iraqis do not fight their own fight for their own freedom, they will not value it. It’s much better that Iraqis take over the fight against the jihadis and Baathists than we do it for them. We should have sent in more troops if our aim was to own Iraq but we have about the right amount of troops if we intend to pass it on to the Iraqis.[/quote]

    We do not have enough troops to control Iraq or to stop the violence. We did not allow the Iraqis to keep the forces which could have done this. As an occupying force we have the duty under international law to protect those whom we are occupying. We are unable to do this for two reasons. 1. We do not have enough troops to do so. 2. We disbanded the Iraqi military units that could have done so.

    We have already “taking over the war.” The Iraqis are not fighting, we are doing thing fighting. Even we they do fight, it is in very small numbers, with US ground and air support usually much larger than the whole Iraqi force itself, and with limited success. This also does not take into account the fact that many of theses troops are indeed Kurdish, taking part in military operations that are not in Kurdish areas, this fueling a growing resentment in the Sunni and Shi’a areas where they are used.

    [quote]Jasra, if Europe is more tolerant and has a richer understanding of culture, why are Muslims there less assimilated there than in America? Why do Muslims in Europe segregate themselves in ghettos while Muslims here live everywhere? [/quote]

    You cannot compare the Muslim community in Europe with the US. There are too many differences to make any such comparrison really worth while. The community in Europe, on the whole, is much much older than it is in the USA. Muslims in Europe live everywhere as well, but they have their “ghettos” too. We have them as well Steve. I suggest you head to Falls Church, around the mosque there, Dar al Hijrah. It is a HUGE Muslim community located within the five miles around it. It isnt completely Muslim, no, but a large percentage certainly is. Muslims tend to congregate in areas where friends, family and institutions are. But it isnt just Muslims, it is any immigrant community. Head to Skyline here and you have a huge community of Ethiopians, most of them Christian. Newer communities tend to do so. Heck, the Muslim community here is even building planned ghettos.

    In the Baltimore area there is a whole community being built and Muslims are being encourage to move there. In an 8 block area there are now 100 Muslim familes, with more coming every week. They take older houses and refit them (with a new construction company they formed) and them sell them to people in the community (using a financial institution they formed). The plan is to have their own schools, stores, you name it. There are already Muslims from everywhere there, Arabs, Africans, Asians, African-Americans and causcasians.

    [quote]You just might consider that Europe cares more about culture because it judges you by where you came from. America judges you by where you are headed.[/quote]

    Rose coloured glasses Steve. Maybe because you are white no one cares where you are coming from, but give yourself olive coloured skin and a different sounding name and they will certainly ask you were you are coming from. I see it all of the time with my family.

  • anonymous
    25 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]MALIK:Maybe because you are white no one cares where you are coming from, but give yourself olive coloured skin and a different sounding name and they will certainly ask you were you are coming from. I see it all of the time with my family.[/quote]

    Has nothing to do with olive skin, Malik. Be lily white and speak English with an accent and you’ll get the same question. The US is a country of immigrants and Americans are just curious where people come from.

    Aliandra

  • 7alaylia
    25 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Has nothing to do with olive skin, Malik. Be lily white and speak English with an accent and you’ll get the same question. The US is a country of immigrants and Americans are just curious where people come from.
    Aliandra[/quote]

    Indeed, in America people do care where you come from. Trust me. When you have olive skin and a “Muslim” sounding name people will ask you where you came from, and it isnt always just to make the time of day. I never realised this until I saw it for myself. Depending on the answer given in response you can get a variety of reactions, not all of them nice.

    People not a part of this community or people might not think that this happens, but it does. The shooting of a Brazilian in the UK doesnt surprise anyone here. Several Sikhs have been killed because the ignorant thought that they were Muslim.

    Spend some time walking around with a woman in Hijab in the USA and you will know what I mean. I see the scared looks on people’s faces, Arabs, when I ask them in English where they are from. They are hesitant about answering this question to a big white guy. It all disappears when I talk to them in Arabic, but the fear is there, and it is not an imagine one.

    I am sure the come back will be “we treat them better than we would be treated there” or whatever. But women in this area are verbally abused here on a regular basis, one was stabbed in the back. I was at a mall not too long ago and watched two men follow a young girl in Hijab and they were snorting at her like pigs and making rude sexual comments, several people stopped, stared and laughed. Once again, because you dont see it, doesnt mean it isnt happening.

    It has gotten to the point where men in Muslim families here are requesting that their daughters, sisters and wives NOT wear Hijab. This is a kind of weird twist to the idea that Muslim men force their women to wear Hijab. I know one Palestinian girl who decided to started wearing her Hijab a couple of years ago and it caused a major family fight because the father and brothers had seen the way that women in Hijab are sometimes treated and they worried for her safety.

    This does happen, I have seen it in Europe and the USA. But I am sure this will be dismissed as pure “worrying.”

  • anonymous
    25 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]MALIK: Indeed, in America people do care where you come from. Trust me. When you have olive skin and a “Muslim” sounding name people will ask you where you came from, and it isnt always just to make the time of day.[/quote]

    I have worked with Pakistanis, Indians, Russians, and what have you – and the question ‘where are you from’ was asked pretty frequently. No one felt intimated. Just because your friends never experienced a question asked out of idle curiousity doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

    [quote]Spend some time walking around with a woman in Hijab in the USA and you will know what I mean. I see the scared looks on people’s faces, [/quote]

    Must be a DC thing or you are hanging around with some pretty apprehensive people. Why just yesterday I was at the park, and there were tons of hijab-clad women around. No-one gave them a second look. Nor did the ladies appear the least bit nervous.

    [quote]I was at a mall not too long ago and watched two men follow a young girl in Hijab and they were snorting at her like pigs and making rude sexual comments, several people stopped, stared and laughed. Once again, because you dont see it, doesnt mean it isnt happening. [/quote]

    Plenty of non-Muslim women can attest to the same harassment, Malik. Some men are just born to be jerks.

    Aliandra

  • anonymous
    25 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    A report on the opinions of British Muslims.

    http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18888

  • 7alaylia
    25 July 2005

    Re(5): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]I have worked with Pakistanis, Indians, Russians, and what have you – and the question ‘where are you from’ was asked pretty frequently. No one felt intimated. Just because your friends never experienced a question asked out of idle curiousity doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.[/quote]

    I never said it didnt happen. What I am saying in that in todays climate some people ask where people are from with a very thinly vield hostility. Often one doesnt have to ask where are you from, the Hijab says it all already.

    [quote]Must be a DC thing or you are hanging around with some pretty apprehensive people. Why just yesterday I was at the park, and there were tons of hijab-clad women around. No-one gave them a second look. Nor did the ladies appear the least bit nervous. [/quote]

    So a trip to a park gives you a good balanced idea of what it is like to wear the Hijab in the USA? I have lived all over the USA, before and after 9/11. The hostility increased after 9/11, but it has always been there in one form or another. What does “appear nervous” mean? I can bet you 100% had you talked to these women, (you didnt talk to them did you?) that everyone of them had been involved in some pretty nasty situations based on nothing more than their hijab. Why fight the facts? This happens in Europe, it happens in the USA, why deny that it does?

    Besides, tonnes of Hijab women hanging around parks? I would wonder where you live.

    [quote]Plenty of non-Muslim women can attest to the same harassment, Malik. Some men are just born to be jerks. [/quote]

    This woman was being abused based on her religion alone. Had they just been making crude sexual comments it would have been one thing, but this thin young woman was having pig noises made at her because she was Muslim. You can minimise this all you want, pretend it doesnt happen, but it happens on a regular basis all over the USA.

    It is real easy for people who are not members of a community to argue that discrimination doesnt take place. There are people who will argue that African-Americans are not discriminated against anymore. The people best able to judge are those in these communities that live it every day. It is there, trust me. From the women who have to fight with their familes because their fathers and brothers dont want them to face the abuses that they do, to the men who call themselves “Mo” instead of “Mohammed” because of the racism and issues they have faced because of their name.

  • 7alaylia
    25 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    This article is written by Daniel Pipes, a well known Islamophobe and racist. His comments about “brown skinned people” and their “strange foods” and “hygene” are more than enough for me. The man is a racist who hates non whites and Muslims. Fullstop.

  • anonymous
    25 July 2005

    Re(6): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]MALIK: So a trip to a park gives you a good balanced idea of what it is like to wear the Hijab in the USA? I have lived all over the USA, before and after 9/11. [/quote]

    You have lived in all 50 states, Samoa, Puerto Rico, Guam, the US Virgin Islands … and know the situation in each one? Ye gads, you get around …

    I have worked with Muslim women, even women who have worn hijab to work. It doesn’t make me all knowing, but I will admit to that.

    [quote]The hostility increased after 9/11, but it has always been there in one form or another.[/quote]

    I really doubt the hostility existed before 9/11, at least not beyond an individual scale. The number of Muslims in the US is statistically miniscule. Most Americans, unless they live near a big city, have never even met a Muslim, and were therefore unable to generate collective hostility. I would even wager that, before 9-11, half of Americans didn’t even know what Islam was, much less what it’s adherents dressed like.

    [quote] everyone of them had been involved in some pretty nasty situations based on nothing more than their hijab Why fight the facts? This happens in Europe, it happens in the USA, why deny that it does?[/quote]

    I find it hard to believe the “fact� that every hijab-wearing female in Europe and the US was involved in a nasty situation based on her hijab. Would you care to post some objective evidence? Or will you say that the 1 Egyptian, 2 Pakistanis, and 1 Saudi women that you know experienced harassment and therefore all women do?

    [quote]What does “appear nervous” mean? Besides, tonnes of Hijab women hanging around parks? I would wonder where you live. [/quote]

    I live in New York. There is a Pakistani community nearby and plenty of Pakistani picnic-ers, men, women, children, laughing, riding paddle-boats on the lake, having a good time and not looking the least bit nervous.

    Don’t hijab-clad women in DC go to parks? I will even admit that, since I don’t live there, I won’t presume they do.

    Aliandra

  • anonymous
    25 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    Islamophobe or not, here’s the links Pipes based his article on.

    The first link also has links to the UKs government report:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1688261,00.html

    And here’s the link to a UK paper, the Telegraph which details the opinion survey.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/23/npoll23.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/07/23/ixnewstop.html

    The UK has a problem. So do its Muslims. Full stop.

    Aliandra

  • mahmood
    25 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    Not to put too fine a point on this unfortunate incident, I can’t find an adjective to describe the situation other than

    BOTCH UP

    , no matter how it’s spun.

    As to the clothing issue, I support Strav’s experience. I arrived in Scotland on Aug 20th, 1981. The temperature then was about 18c if I remember correctly. There were 8 of us from Bahrain in the group, we wrapped up solid as the natives were half naked! I remember we reached the dorms, and thanked god like never before that they had HEATERS in the rooms. We got ourselves into a room and immediately we all congregated around the heaters.

    In the same corridor there was someone from Tanzania who was in his final year at college, he’s been there for 4 years. HE was WRAPPED UP and joined us around the heater!

    I say that regardless of clothing, the person not stopping, etc. FIVE bullets are a bit much to ensure that the person actually stops. And the “west” is trying to teach us about human rights and innocent unless proven guilty?

    Baloney.

    B o t c h u p g a l l o r e.

    Learn from it. Don’t be an appologist and spin it any other way. Learn from it so that it doesn’t happen again.

    My personal condolences and thoughts with the victim’s family and friends.

  • 7alaylia
    25 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Islamophobe or not, here’s the links Pipes based his article on.
    The first link also has links to the UKs government report:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1688261,00.html

    And here’s the link to a UK paper, the Telegraph which details the opinion survey.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/23/npoll23.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/07/23/ixnewstop.html
    The UK has a problem. So do its Muslims. Full stop.[/quote]

    Interesting that one can make assumptions about a population of hundreds of thousands based on the poll of less than 600 people? Besides which, which “Muslim community” are they talking about? There is no single, monolithic Muslim community, not in the UK, not the world. It doesnt exist. The opinions of Muslims range widely depending on where they are from.

    Quoting The Telegraph and The Times on Muslims would be like me quoting al Manar on President Bush.

    Of course there are issues in the Islamic community, there are issues in the British community as well.

    Interesting to note, for all of those that claim that the war in Iraq is making us safer, it would seem that Israeli and other people have done a study and found that Iraq is the PRIMARY motivator for terrorism now. I guess this is where someone will claim that the Israelis are pro-Islamic propaganda machines now?

    “The shrill denials by Tony Blair and Jack Straw that hostility to the invasion of Iraq motivated the bombers are demonstrably untrue. The findings of an investigation, to be published soon, into 300 young Saudis, caught and interrogated by Saudi intelligence on their way to Iraq to fight or blow themselves up, shows that very few had any previous contact with al-Qa’ida or any other terrorist organisation previous to 2003. It was the invasion of Iraq which prompted their decision to die…………A separate Israeli study of 154 foreign fighters in Iraq, carried out by the Global Research in International Affairs Centre in Israel, also concluded that almost all had been radicalised by Iraq alone.”

    [url]http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article301250.ece[/url]

  • mahmood
    25 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    gimme a break Steve, police anywhere in the world if not overseen will abuse their power.

    So your defence in this particular case is underhanded.

    The police in this particular incident did wrong, they should be dealt with using the legal means and procedures prevalent in the country, even if it is leave of absence, re-training, psychological help, whatever it takes.

    But they did screw up, and as they ARE human and prone to misjudgement like anyone else on the planet, people should certainly be wary of them if they do carry guns and chase innocent people to be gunned down with half a pound of metal in their skull.

  • mahmood
    25 July 2005

    Re(7): Terrorist attacks in London

    guys, step back and get back to the issue at hand please. we don’t really want to go into yet another mudslingfest do we?

  • 7alaylia
    25 July 2005

    Re(7): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]You have lived in all 50 states, Samoa, Puerto Rico, Guam, the US Virgin Islands … and know the situation in each one? Ye gads, you get around …
    I have worked with Muslim women, even women who have worn hijab to work. It doesn’t make me all knowing, but I will admit to that.[/quote]

    I never claimed to have lived in every state, but I have lived in Arizona, Oregon, Washington State, Alaska, North Dakota and Virginia. My point is pretty clear. If Muslim women face abuse in the metro DC area, one of the most diverse areas in the USA, it is certain they face it elsewhere. I know it happens in Arizona, Oregon and Washington state. I had a person experience with anti-Muslim hate in Alaska right after 9/11. Admit it, it happens. Why even try to deny it?

    [quote]I really doubt the hostility existed before 9/11, at least not beyond an individual scale. The number of Muslims in the US is statistically miniscule. Most Americans, unless they live near a big city, have never even met a Muslim, and were therefore unable to generate collective hostility. I would even wager that, before 9-11, half of Americans didn’t even know what Islam was, much less what it’s adherents dressed like.[/quote]

    Again, you can doubt it all you want, but it existed. Certainly not on the scale it does now, but it was here. It has been here, in one form or another, since the Islamic Revolution in Iran and the taking of American hostages. There are some 7-9 million Muslims in the USA, I think it is set or already exceeds the numbers of Jews in the USA. Would you make the same statement about Jews? You forget that America had experience with segments of Islam before 9/11. I still remember the posters and bumper stickers that cars had during the hostage crisis. Let me say that their racist and sectarian caricatures were not pleasant.

    [quote]I find it hard to believe the “fact� that every hijab-wearing female in Europe and the US was involved in a nasty situation based on her hijab. Would you care to post some objective evidence? Or will you say that the 1 Egyptian, 2 Pakistanis, and 1 Saudi women that you know experienced harassment and therefore all women do?[/quote]

    Every woman who I have ever met, in this country and in Europe, who wears Hijab could tell you stories. It goes either way, sometimes people are very nice and interested, other times they are very rude, aggressive, mean, and sometimes outright violent. Your talk about “1 Egyptian, 2 Pakistanis” in regards to myself is nonsense. It might describe the limits of your interaction with Muslim women, but certainly not mine. I can name you 15 Saudi women, members of my family, who have had issues in the west directly because of their Hijab and their country of origin. My father in law himself did not want his own wife to wear hijab because he was aware of the treatment they are often given here. I can name you half a dozen Pakistani women I know who have had similar instances. You need to remember that I am an active part of the Muslim community here in the USA, not just a person looking from the outside.

    My daughters girl scout leader, a white convert to Islam, was attacked not too far back by men calling her a “rag-head” and telling her to “go back to where she came from.” Didnt matter she was born and raised in the town where the attack happened. Another girl, the daughter of a Pakistani diplomat here that my wife is friends with related a story to us about walking to catch a bus a few months back when a car drove by, yelled names at her and threw liquid on her. She told us how she was scared out of her mind because she feared the liquid was gas and that they were going to set her on fire. Another woman was loading her child into a car and was stabbed in the back, at a Walmart, by someone calling her a “terrorist.” I find the fact that you refuse to admit that this is something these women face every day to be rather insensitive.

    [quote]I live in New York. There is a Pakistani community nearby and plenty of Pakistani picnic-ers, men, women, children, laughing, riding paddle-boats on the lake, having a good time and not looking the least bit nervous.
    Don’t hijab-clad women in DC go to parks? I will even admit that, since I don’t live there, I won’t presume they do.[/quote]

    I wouldnt ever claim that “tons” of Hijab clad women were hanging out in parks unless there was some sort of a function going on. But please tell me, how do you quantify what “looking nervous” means? Wanna bet if I, as a white man, walked up to one of them and asked them where they were from they would suddenly get that “nervous” look that you are talking about? They feel fine when they are with their own. I have seen that first hand talking to women here. I often like to talk to women in Hijab, to give them my salams. I have been told by complete strangers, after we get to talking in Arabic or English, how often they are approached by strangers with rude comments, or people will leave the area when they got on the tube, they will hide their children. Because you dont see it doesnt mean it isnt out there.

    Aliandra, whether you want to admit it or not the fear is there, it is real and it is based on real life experience.

  • anonymous
    25 July 2005

    Re(5): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote] MALIK: Interesting that one can make assumptions about a population of hundreds of thousands based on the poll of less than 600 people?[/quote]

    Yet you are the one extrapolating opinions from the Muslims you know to the other one billion.

    No poll takes opinions from “hundred of thousands.�. Polling science does not work that way. If you think that polls are always to be trashed, then you must also trash the entire science of marketing, as well as thousands of research papers.

    [quote] Quoting The Telegraph and The Times on Muslims would be like me quoting al Manar on President Bush.[/quote]

    Then go right to the UK Government Report. Or has the UK government been infiltrated by American neo-cons?

    [quote] Interesting to note, for all of those that claim that the war in Iraq is making us safer, it would seem that Israeli and other people have done a study and found that Iraq is the PRIMARY motivator for terrorism now.[/quote]

    It’s more like the primary EXCUSE. Note that none of the captured Madrid or London perpetrators were Iraqi. I’ll wager that no Iraqis were involved in the recent Sinai bombing either .

    Aliandra

  • 7alaylia
    25 July 2005

    Re(6): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]It’s more like the primary EXCUSE. Note that none of the captured Madrid or London perpetrators were Iraqi. I’ll wager that no Iraqis were involved in the recent Sinai bombing either .[/quote]

    No one claimed that they were. The claim made was that the war on Iraq was part of the war on terror. It would seem that it wasnt before the US invasion, but it sure is now. Furthermore, the US invasion is swelling the ranks of those wishing to attack America. The US invasion of Iraq has made the world a much more dangerous place, and will do so for years. The true scope of which, like with al-Queda in Afghanistan, will not be known for years to come.

    Iraq is certainly set to become a huge mistake for America and American interests in the future.

  • 7alaylia
    25 July 2005

    Re(8): Terrorist attacks in London

    Okay Mahmood. You are right. I have made my opinion known, some people just cannot accept facts that counter the way they want to think life is.

    I think it is great that the leaders from almost every Muslim community in the western world have united and condemned the attacks. Below is a news story on how Canadian Muslim leaders have issued a denounciation of extremism. Below the story is the statement itself.

    [url]http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050721/MUSLIM21/TPNational/Canada[/url]

    In an unprecedented move, 120 Canadian imams and other Islamic religious leaders from across the country will release a statement today denouncing terrorism and vowing to confront religious extremism.

    The declaration, coordinated by the Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-CAN), will be released at a news conference at a downtown Toronto mosque following noontime prayers. Imams from Calgary, Newfoundland and Toronto will attend.

    The planned statement comes several days after Britain’s largest Sunni Muslim group issued a fatwa — a binding religious edict — condemning the July 7 bombings on the London Underground and a double-decker bus that killed at least 56. The attacks were carried out by four suicide bombers, three British-born men of Pakistani origin and a Jamaican-Briton.

    Organizations representing Canada’s 600,000 Muslims have struggled to articulate a co-ordinated response to jihadi Islam, and today marks the first time such a large group of imams from diverse ethnic backgrounds will issue what is expected to be a similar fatwa or declaration condemning the bombings as un-Islamic. (MORE)

    STATEMENT BY CANADIAN IMAMS ON EXTREMISM

    “We are Canadian Muslims. The first of us came to this country in the 1800’s. We have journeyed from six continents to make Canada our home.

    “Our life in Canada has been one of positive contribution and near seamless integration. It has not been a clash of cultures or of civilizations.

    “Canada has offered us a new life with untold opportunities. It has offered us a hope that can only be repaid with thankfulness and sacrifice. We care deeply about Canada’s prosperity, its growth and its safety and security.

    “Those who would use violence for their twisted acts betray the most basic value of the sanctity of human life. We have opposed, and will continue, to oppose all extremism, hate and terrorism.

    “Any one who claims to be a Muslim and participates in any way in the taking of innocent life is betraying the very spirit and letter of Islam. We categorically and unequivocally reject such acts. We will confront and challenge the extremist mindset that produces this perversion of our faith.

    “We remind Canadian Muslims that no injustice done to Muslims anywhere can ever justify the taking of innocent life. All life, whether here or abroad, is sacred: ‘And whoever saves a life it is as though he had saved the lives of all humankind.’

    “As religious leaders, we echo the exhortation of the Koran for Muslims to be firm advocates for justice, even if it be against their families, their communities or themselves and to insist on Islam as a lived reality that is compassionate, tolerant, just and life sanctifying.”

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    25 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    Here’s an account from the London Times of the shooting of the Brazilian man:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1707480,00.html

    One family member said he’d been mugged by a pack of white boys before. That may be why he ran.

    Steve

  • chalk66x
    25 July 2005

    Re(9): Terrorist attacks in London

    PR plain and simple. These are the same leaders world wide that kept quiet for years while the hate was spread in their communities.

    billT

  • 7alaylia
    25 July 2005

    Re(10): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]PR plain and simple. These are the same leaders world wide that kept quiet for years while the hate was spread in their communities.
    billT[/quote]

    A clear case of “damned if you do, damned if you dont.” Had they said nothing the response would be “see, no condemnations.” When they do condemn it is “”PR plain and simple.”

    There is no way to win here. Some people will reject any and EVERYTHING you do.

  • anonymous
    25 July 2005

    Re(5): Terrorist attacks in London

    Another report today hints that his VISA may have been expired. Thus he was afraid of being deported.

  • 7alaylia
    25 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]The British thugs who commit them should be pursued and punished. Simply put, are Muslims scraping pieces of Muslims off subway walls after being blasted to bits by British bigots? Are Muslims washing Muslim blood off buildings where it was splattered by the gallon by English terrorists? When you equate a few Muslim bruises with barrels of English blood, you are placing a heavy thumb on the scales to make them balance.[/quote]

    Muslims have cleaned up the blood and body parts from friends families and loved ones killed by the British, French, Americans in the hundreds of thousands. From Algeria, Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan and a dozen other places they have done so. Grab a history book Steve, have a good read.

  • anonymous
    25 July 2005

    Re(8): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]MALIK: wouldnt ever claim that “tons” of Hijab clad women were hanging out in parks unless there was some sort of a function going on.[/quote]
    I was using “tons� as a figure of speech. I personally did not weigh them nor would I want to. I have been to that park before and there were hundreds of Pakistanis milling around and enjoying the day. Some were part of a picnic function, many were there on their own.
    [quote] how do you quantify what “looking nervous” means? Wanna bet if I, as a white man, walked up to one of them and asked them where they were from they would suddenly get that “nervous” look[/quote]
    Kwatz. Any strange man that walked up to any woman and demanded where she was from should expect a nervous reaction.
    [quote] There are some 7-9 million Muslims in the USA, I think it is set or already exceeds the numbers of Jews in the USA.[/quote]

    About equal to the number of Buddists. Compared to a US population of 300 million, it’s miniscule – about 2%. It’s accurate to say that most Americans have never met a Muslim, just like they’ve never met a Budhhist. Unlike Euopeans, Americans are not concentrated in big cities. The greater part of the population lives in suburbs or rural areas.

    [quote] Your talk about “1 Egyptian, 2 Pakistanis” in regards to myself is nonsense. It might describe the limits of your interaction with Muslim women, but certainly not mine. I can name you 15 Saudi women,[/quote]

    No need. You’ve proved my point.

    [quote] If Muslim women face abuse in the metro DC area, one of the most diverse areas in the USA, it is certain they face it elsewhere. Another woman was loading her child into a car and was stabbed in the back, at a Walmart [/quote]

    Malik, please keep in mind that DC is the crime capital of the country. I live very close to NYC, which is extremely diverse, perhaps more so then DC. We are the home of the UN and all its accoutrements, ambassadors, and apparatchiks. The newscasters read the police blotter every night, so to speak. There’s been very little anti-Muslim attacks, mosque vandalism, etc … In fact, I haven’t heard of a single case where a Muslim was physically attacked or a mosque defaced. I’m not denying the possibility or even the idea that it might go unreported but so far, it’s been pretty quiet here.

    I never denied that bias crimes exist and that some Muslims are scared, but you should not extrapolate what you encounter in DC to everywhere and everyone else. None of the Muslims I knew personally said they felt threatened. And I do not extra-polate these people to the rest of the country.

    Now let’s respect Mahmood’s wishes and get off this topic. It’s gone on too long anyway.

    Aliandra

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    25 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Malik: “No one is talking about keeping the high level Baathists around. What was needed was for the common troops and mid level commanders to be kept. This was done in Germany as well after WW2. It would have been impossible to run Germany, and now Iraq, if you exclude members of a political party which people were forced to join if they wanted employment and wanted to succede. The US and allied forces used many former Nazi Party members in all levels of government and civil society. Heck, the US even brought many of them over here, they helped put the US into space!”[/quote]

    You are mixing your examples up, army and civil administration. In Germany, the Wehrmacht was disbanded and the Bundewehr was formed after the war. It would be just impossible to maintain a Wehrmacht where every member had sworn personal loyalty to Hitler. Many of the former German military joined the new military, but as individuals, not units.

    I am not arguing to ban former Iraqi military from joining the new army, as you seem to imply, but rather that the old organization be razed. There are other differences between the Iraqi and German situations. First, the German military was competent. The Iraqi military was not. It is a bad idea to build the new Iraqi army on a foundation of mud. Second, the Iraqi army participated in a large way in the crimes of Saddam where the German army participated in a smaller way to Hitler’s crimes. In either case, preserving the instruments of oppression is hardly a good start for a democracy.

    Steve

  • 7alaylia
    25 July 2005

    Re(2): Muslim Bomber Dies A Coward

    [quote]Yup. Asian=Pakistani.[/quote]

    Yes and no. Asian can mean Indian, Bengali, Sri Lankan, you name it. Anyone from the sub continent.

  • anonymous
    25 July 2005

    Re(3): Muslim Bomber Dies A Coward

    Did Mahmood’s Den get renamed MALIK’s DEN?? I didn’t get the memo……. Please advise.

  • 7alaylia
    25 July 2005

    Shot 8 Times

    Turns out he was shot 8 times, not 5. There was an incident of overkill like this in Arizona a years ago. Police show up to a domestic violence call. Man appears from door way 25-30 away with a knife in his hand. He is told to drop the knife. When he advances he is shot almost 30 times.

    I have dealt with police around the world and they are almost always not the proper people you would want for the job. It is the exact wrong people that become police officers often for the exact wrong reasons. It is unfortunate these british police were not like the county sherrifs I had the “pleasure” of shooting next to on a public gun range once. A 4 foot by 4 foot cardboard target frame built with wooden 2x4s, with the smaller human target stapled on it. Two of them missed the human target with two complete clips at 50 feet, but they sure managed to take apart the 4 foot target frame. Like my shooting coach used to say “if it was an elephant, they would have killed it.”.

  • 7alaylia
    25 July 2005

    Re(4): Muslim Bomber Dies A Coward

    [quote]Did Mahmood’s Den get renamed MALIK’s DEN?? I didn’t get the memo……. Please advise.[/quote]

    Why just the issue with me? You’ll find that Steve has more posts on this thread than I do. Maybe your distaste for my opinions has more to do with it than anything else? If someone posting too much is the issue, please address other posters who do the same. If your issue is with my statements, please be open enough to admit it.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    25 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik,

    Are you seriously arguing that the local situation in London is caused by French terror in Algeria or Israelis fighting Palestine? That’s nonsense. You are grasping desperately at straws to justify this heinous act.

    There is no justification for these British Muslims to be bombing and butchering their British neighbors. None. These Muslim boys had far more privileges and advantages in England than they would have dreamed of had their parents stayed in Pakistan. The portrait painted by all their friends is of happy lives. They had to go to a mosque to find excuses to do murder.

    The original question here, which you avoid with a detour to Algeria and Palestine, is that the Muslims in England have not been assaulted by British bigots on anywhere near the scale that Muslim bigots have assaulted the British. The British Muslims have a near monopoly on the religious violence in England. Attempts to paint Muslims as the victims of violence in England are contemptible attempts by Muslims to turn the truth on its head to avoid taking responsibility for the blood spilled for Islam.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    25 July 2005

    Re(7): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik,

    In hindsight, I would wager that the best thing the US could have done was to let Saddam invade Kuwait in 1991. Just do NOTHING. He would have gone on to invade the rest of the Gulf and taken over all the oil states, maybe even some other Arab countries. Oil would have risen sky-high under Saddam’s control … and the West would have been forced to develop a new and clean energy source. Better for the West, better for the planet …

    i would be writing this from a fusion powered computer … or something like that.

    Sarcasm tags off.

    [quote]The US invasion of Iraq has made the world a much more dangerous place, and will do so for years. [/quote]

    Wrong. Islamic radicalism is making the world a much more dangerous place. From 9-11, to the Luxor massacre, to attacks on Pakistani churches and Balinese nightclubs, it is fanatical religious warriors causing grief whereever they go

    Aliandra

  • 7alaylia
    25 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Are you seriously arguing that the local situation in London is caused by French terror in Algeria or Israelis fighting Palestine? That’s nonsense. You are grasping desperately at straws to justify this heinous act.[/quote]

    I am not justifying anything. You just stated that Muslims had never had to clean up blood and body parts from their people killed by Brits, Americans, you name it. That is just not true. Muslims would actually have to go much farther to equal what has been done in Muslim lands by Westerners, even if we just look at the last 100 years.

    Besides, if you think the attacks in London are based on the “local situation” you are far off the mark. I guess you missed the Israeli study that showed that the Iraq war, which you support, is making people into suicide bombers who were never involved in such groups before. So much for the war making the world a safer place.

    [quote]There is no justification for these British Muslims to be bombing and butchering their British neighbors. None. These Muslim boys had far more privileges and advantages in England than they would have dreamed of had their parents stayed in Pakistan. The portrait painted by all their friends is of happy lives. They had to go to a mosque to find excuses to do murder.[/quote]

    I never said there was any justification. I was pointing out that your statement was historically inaccurate. Muslims, more often than not, have been at the receiving end of the violence from the west, not the other way around. But this does not justify these attacks. When you respond to animal acts by becoming an animal yourself, you are no better than they are.

    [quote]The original question here, which you avoid with a detour to Algeria and Palestine, is that the Muslims in England have not been assaulted by British bigots on anywhere near the scale that Muslim bigots have assaulted the British. [/quote]

    In this case, no, but I was talking historically. Historically Muslims have been much more mistreated. But we cannot use history to justify violence. At the same time Steve, you cannot use these attacks as a way to deny the past. Islamists would have to kill hundreds of thousands of British to equal what they have done to Muslim countries.

    [quote]The British Muslims have a near monopoly on the religious violence in England. Attempts to paint Muslims as the victims of violence in England are contemptible attempts by Muslims to turn the truth on its head to avoid taking responsibility for the blood spilled for Islam.[/quote]

    Far more people have been killed in the UK by terrorists from Catholic and Protestant based groups. Over three thousand and counting. As to the blood spilt in these attacks, it is no more “for Islam” than Bloody Sunday was “for” the Church of England.

  • 7alaylia
    25 July 2005

    Re(8): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]In hindsight, I would wager that the best thing the US could have done was to let Saddam invade Kuwait in 1991. Just do NOTHING. He would have gone on to invade the rest of the Gulf and taken over all the oil states, maybe even some other Arab countries. Oil would have risen sky-high under Saddam’s control … and the West would have been forced to develop a new and clean energy source. Better for the West, better for the planet … [/quote]

    We are going to have to develope cleaner energy, the sooner the better. It would deprive all of the kleptocrates in the Middle East of their cash and they might actually have to do something for a living. As to Kuwait, Saddam signalled his intention to invade Kuwait, it was met with silence by his partners in Washington DC. Saddam took this as a green light. I dont think Saddam would have invaded the rest of the countries in the area. Kuwait and Iraq had long standing territory issues that Iraq did not have with any countries that it could invade and take. Iran being one country he tried and failed to do so, again over the same issues.

    [quote]Wrong. Islamic radicalism is making the world a much more dangerous place. From 9-11, to the Luxor massacre, to attacks on Pakistani churches and Balinese nightclubs, it is fanatical religious warriors causing grief whereever they go[/quote]
    You are putting the horse before the cart. I think it is US and western actions which are radicalising populations and driving people to support groups they wouldnt have before. Trust me when I say that there are many Muslims out there who are far more inclined to help against America now than they were before the Iraqi invasion. There were always, and will always be, isolated attacks. Nothing of the scope of consistantcy of what we are seeing now would have been possible except for the invasion of Iraq. Someday the conflict in Iraq will be over. The fighters, like when they beat the Soviets, have to go somewhere.

    Al Queda grew out of Afghanistan. A much more powerful more lethal force is growing and coming out of Iraq.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    25 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Malik: You cannot compare the Muslim community in Europe with the US. There are too many differences to make any such comparrison really worth while. The community in Europe, on the whole, is much much older than it is in the USA. Muslims in Europe live everywhere as well, but they have their “ghettos” too. We have them as well Steve. I suggest you head to Falls Church, around the mosque there, Dar al Hijrah. It is a HUGE Muslim community located within the five miles around it. It isnt completely Muslim, no, but a large percentage certainly is. Muslims tend to congregate in areas where friends, family and institutions are. But it isnt just Muslims, it is any immigrant community. Head to Skyline here and you have a huge community of Ethiopians, most of them Christian. Newer communities tend to do so. Heck, the Muslim community here is even building planned ghettos.”[/quote]

    I wouldn’t call Falls Church a ghetto, not when a small townhouse there goes for $400,000+ and it contains clusters of trendy shops and restaurants. Muslims in Falls Church can make a choice to live there, unlike ghettoes where you have no choices as to where you can live. Falls Church is nothing like the cites ringing Paris, where the Muslims are contained in public housing ghettoes, never to escape. There is no American equivalent to those.

    [quote]Malik: In the Baltimore area there is a whole community being built and Muslims are being encourage to move there. In an 8 block area there are now 100 Muslim familes, with more coming every week. They take older houses and refit them (with a new construction company they formed) and them sell them to people in the community (using a financial institution they formed). The plan is to have their own schools, stores, you name it. There are already Muslims from everywhere there, Arabs, Africans, Asians, African-Americans and causcasians.[/quote]

    That doesn’t sound like a ghetto. It sounds like a colony.

    Steve

    [Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on July 25, 2005 12:25 PM]

  • 7alaylia
    25 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]You are mixing your examples up, army and civil administration. In Germany, the Wehrmacht was disbanded and the Bundewehr was formed after the war. It would be just impossible to maintain a Wehrmacht where every member had sworn personal loyalty to Hitler. Many of the former German military joined the new military, but as individuals, not units.
    I am not arguing to ban former Iraqi military from joining the new army, as you seem to imply, but rather that the old organization be razed. There are other differences between the Iraqi and German situations. First, the German military was competent. The Iraqi military was not. It is a bad idea to build the new Iraqi army on a foundation of mud. Second, the Iraqi army participated in a large way in the crimes of Saddam where the German army participated in a smaller way to Hitler’s crimes. In either case, preserving the instruments of oppression is hardly a good start for a democracy.
    Steve[/quote]

    I am not saying they had to keep the old units, but they didnt even keep the people Steve. That is the point. They were, en-masse, told to go home. Probably the biggest mistake of the Iraqi war.

    As to your comments about how the Wehrmacht participated in the crimes of Hitler, I would contest that. Some 20 million Russians didnt die because of a few Waffen SS troops. German troops, up and down the scale, were involved in many different ways in the rape, murder and extermination of Russians and Jews. Before you call me anti-German I should tell you I was born in Germany and I am of German ancestry.

  • anonymous
    25 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]A clear case of “damned if you do, damned if you dont.” Had they said nothing the response would be “see, no condemnations.” When they do condemn it is “”PR plain and simple.”[/quote]

    Malik, we’re not talking of a delay of a year or two. Jihadist terrorism has been going on for over ten years (google first WTC attack) with no opposition from the religious establishment. It took three years before an imam in Spain put out a fatwa against Mr. bin ladin. I’m glad there’s condemnation but people wonder if it’s coming now because Islam has got itself a really bad image in the world.

    Aliandra

  • 7alaylia
    25 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Malik, we’re not talking of a delay of a year or two. Jihadist terrorism has been going on for over ten years (google first WTC attack) with no opposition from the religious establishment. It took three years before an imam in Spain put out a fatwa against Mr. bin ladin. I’m glad there’s condemnation but people wonder if it’s coming now because Islam has got itself a really bad image in the world. [/quote]

    Muslims were speaking out long before 9/11, the west just wasnt listening. The very same people who say that Muslims didnt speak out after 9/11 ignore the hundreds of condemnations that rang from the corners of the Islamic world.

    As to the “bad image of Islam” I suggest you read Karen Armstrong’s biography of Mohammed. I just started it, but the first chapter goes into explaining how Islam has had a “bad image” in the west since before the first crusade. It is this long existing “bad image” that makes it okay to stereotype and be bigoted against Muslims today. This is not something that crops up over night. This is an ingrained part of the fabric of western society, at one level or another.

  • anonymous
    25 July 2005

    Re(9): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote] MALIK: I think it is US and western actions which are radicalising populations and driving people to support groups they wouldnt have before.[/quote]

    The Muslim population is being radicalized by fanatic clerics, who convince their young men to kill the infidels for an afterlife orgy. The Soviets despised US and Western actions too, but young Russian and Eastern Bloc men weren’t blowing themselves up in Western cities.

    The attacks on Pakistani churches have nothing to do with foreign policy. One of the perpetrators of the Bali bombing claimed that nightclubs were destroying religion. The Luxor massacre occurred in 1997 and the victims were mostly Germans.

    These are cases of hatred of the other, committed by radical religious people.

    [quote] Nothing of the scope of consistantcy of what we are seeing now would have been possible except for the invasion of Iraq.[/quote]

    A pity that such terrorist talent chose not to deploy itself against Saddam or the other middle-eastern governments. They might have taken down quite a few dictators.

    Aliandra

  • chalk66x
    25 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    I have a simple way of looking at people, would I want them living next door to me. Has nothing to do with religion or race just the simple can I trust them. I cant trust these leaders anymore than I can trust the catholic church leaders in the US. You don’t know about hate and violence and sexual abuse for years and then condemn it when it comes to light. These leaders are as big a part of the problem as those who do the acts.

    billT

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    25 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Malik: Spend some time walking around with a woman in Hijab in the USA and you will know what I mean. I see the scared looks on people’s faces, Arabs, when I ask them in English where they are from. They are hesitant about answering this question to a big white guy. It all disappears when I talk to them in Arabic, but the fear is there, and it is not an imagine one.[/quote]

    There seem to be a fair number of scarf-wearing modestly dressed Muslim women working in my office who don’t know they should be scared. They look more bored than scared walking the streets of DC.

    I bought a bed at a furniture store here in the area sometime back. The girl clerks were Muslims. I was chatting with them about Eids and whatnot. I’m a big white guy but they didn’t seem to know about the Malik Policy that they should be scared of me. They were just goofy teenaged chicks, laughing and giggling and cutting up. One was born in the Sudan and came over and one had a Sudanese dad.

    [quote]Malik: I am sure the come back will be “we treat them better than we would be treated there” or whatever. But women in this area are verbally abused here on a regular basis, one was stabbed in the back. I was at a mall not too long ago and watched two men follow a young girl in Hijab and they were snorting at her like pigs and making rude sexual comments, several people stopped, stared and laughed. Once again, because you dont see it, doesnt mean it isnt happening.[/quote]

    That’s right, Malik, I don’t see any Muslims being abused in my every day life. Not only that, I haven’t seen anybody anywhere getting abused for race or religion for some years as I’ve travelled around the country. It’s just not done in polite company in the US.

    The only abusers I have seen since I hit DC a few years ago have been lefties shouting and harassing conservatives at peace marches and threatening to beat me up (oh the irony) and customers chewing out misbehaving vendors.

    [quote]Malik: It has gotten to the point where men in Muslim families here are requesting that their daughters, sisters and wives NOT wear Hijab. This is a kind of weird twist to the idea that Muslim men force their women to wear Hijab. I know one Palestinian girl who decided to started wearing her Hijab a couple of years ago and it caused a major family fight because the father and brothers had seen the way that women in Hijab are sometimes treated and they worried for her safety. This does happen, I have seen it in Europe and the USA. But I am sure this will be dismissed as pure “worrying.”[/quote]

    Sounds like an overreaction to me.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    25 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]MALIK: very same people who say that Muslims didnt speak out after 9/11 ignore the hundreds of condemnations that rang from the corners of the Islamic world.[/quote]

    They must have been distracted by the images of Palestinians singing and passing out candy, of Egyptians honking their horns in glee, and reports of Saudis having celebrations.

    [quote]As to the “bad image of Islam” I suggest you read Karen Armstrong’s biography of Mohammed. I just started it, but the first chapter goes into explaining how Islam has had a “bad image” in the west since before the first crusade. This is an ingrained part of the fabric of western society, at one level or another.[/quote]

    The “bad image� of Islam arises from terrorism in recent times, not from something that happened in the 11th century. It certainly does not account for the bad image in non-western countries.

    [quote] It is this long existing “bad image” that makes it okay to stereotype and be bigoted against Muslims today.[/quote]

    It is NOT okay to stereotype and be bigoted against anyone in the US, Malik, You know that. Schoolteachers work very hard to ensure tolerance. Bigots do exist but the greater society finds their opinions unacceptable.

    Aliandra

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    25 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik,

    Islam has always been hostile to non-Muslims from the get-go. It’s hostility to the West, ie the Frankish, came long before the Crusades.

    I might also point out that Muslims waged a savage war of conquest in Europe that led it to invade Spain, then France where it was stopped at the Battle of Tours in October 25, 732 AD. That’s only a century after Mohammed died. Killing people, raping their women, stealing their stuff, enslaving them, and taking their land might just have given Islam a bad image to the Europeans, dontcha think?

    Parts of Europe had been occupied by Muslim aggressors for over three and a half centuries before the First Crusade was launched in 1095 AD. Isn’t it curious how the history of the original Muslim aggression against Europe is flung down the Muslim memory hole, like it never happenned? And Muslims like you ignore that history to blame the ancient European distaste for Muslims as originating in simple ignorant prejudice and bigotry, as if the Muslims had never done anything to deserve their bad name.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    25 July 2005

    Re(3): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Malik: This article is written by Daniel Pipes, a well known Islamophobe and racist. His comments about “brown skinned people” and their “strange foods” and “hygene” are more than enough for me. The man is a racist who hates non whites and Muslims. Fullstop.[/quote]

    A classic ad hominem attack to discredit a source with unwelcome facts. You are misquoting Pipes as owning these comments when he was in fact accurately describing the reaction of Europeans to Muslim immigration. Here is Pipes refutation of this Muslim propaganda meme: http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1220

    I encourage the readers to examine it for themselves and decide if Malik is being honest here. Once you have seen how he has dishonestly presented this quote, the next question you might want to ask is why does he need to rely on such sleight of hand if the facts are on his side?

    Steve

  • anonymous
    25 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    How can you blame the Muslims, Steve? I mean, didn’t Allah tell them to spread the word of Allah so that all nations may submit to Allah and Mohammed’s rule? It was that bastard Charles Martel that prevented Europe from being converted to the ‘correct’ religion. It’s because of Charles Martel that these heresies such as ‘science’ and ‘technology’ exist today. Such things should only come from the perfect book of Allah which is eternal and unchanging – and you’d better believe that no matter how false it sounds because we have PROOF!! The book itself says that it is true, therefore it is, and it overrides YOUR BIBLES AND TORAHS because we say it does.

    You should be like Malik, Steve. Submit to the will of Allah. Join us and you won’t be hurt. Live the perfect life that God intended where you can hide 4 wives so only you can appreciate them and beat them if they step out of line. Who wouldn’t want that, Steve? Who wouldn’t want to sumbit their will to Allah and his Prophet Mohammed? There’s no need to think. Just do exactly what the Prophet did. No need to think for yourself. Humanity was perfected in the Prophet. Didn’t the prophet make men and women equal? Didn’t the prophet once stand up at a Jew’s Funeral? Didn’t the prophet once order the massacre of an entire tribe of jews? Didn’t the Prophet order severe punishments for petty crimes?

    Who wouldn’t want to live in a world like that?

    It’s those bastard Christians and Jews that keep the Muslims down. It’s all their fault.

    FIGHT THEM until all religion is for Allah. FIGHT THEM until the world is at peace. OUR Peace. The Peace of perfect Islam, where everything is as it was and nothing is new.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    25 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    Malik,

    You are arguing especially dishonestly today. You keep avoiding the original point to which I responded which is that the British on Muslim violence in England after these Tube bombings is miniscule compared to the Muslim on British carnage. You want to avoid that uncomfortable fact with distractions in the far past or distant lands and by changing the issue.

    These British Muslim boys had no justification, as you imply, to blow up their neighbors because of all this drivel about injustices done to Muslims everywhere all the time that you constantly trot out. If we followed that brain-damaged reasoning, I’d have the right to kill every Muslim because they invaded Yugoslavia and wreaked injustice on my ancestors. Yet, that would be insane.

    [quote]Malik: That is just not true. Muslims would actually have to go much farther to equal what has been done in Muslim lands by Westerners, even if we just look at the last 100 years.[/quote]

    Saddam has set a pretty high bar to surpass with a million dead all by his doing alone.

    [quote]Malik: Far more people have been killed in the UK by terrorists from Catholic and Protestant based groups. Over three thousand and counting. As to the blood spilt in these attacks, it is no more “for Islam” than Bloody Sunday was “for” the Church of England.[/quote]

    Malik, why don’t you perform a comparison of all the people killed by the Catholic and Protestant based groups in London this year with those killed by Muslims. What does that ratio look like? What percentage are Muslim?

    The murders are all about Islam. These boys didn’t begin to think violently until they went in a mosque. They didn’t act violently until their handlers got them all fired up about avenging Islam.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    25 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    Mahmood,

    Although the target in this case turned out to be innocent, I am hard pressed to see where the police did anything wrong. This Brazilian guy, by sheer bad luck, fit the profile of a suicide bomber. By sheer bad judgement, he bolted when challenged by the police, just as you would expect a suicide bomber to do if caught.

    If you were those policemen, desperately trying to defend your community from more bloodshed, what would you have done? If every indication was that you were chasing a suicide bomber, that if you waited, he could have detonated himself killing you and other innocent people, what would you have done? Would you have just walked away?

    Mahmood, that officer could not walk away. He could not have done anything else. This is one of those times when events conspire to chew up an innocent life and nothing much could have been done about it. He had a responsibility to stop the terrorists that he could not shrug off.

    The fault lies with the Muslim terrorists who have created this dangerous environment and forced the British police to take these extreme defensive measures. It is a war, Mahmood, and innocent people are going to be killed accidently by our side as we fight it. In a war, friendly artillery fires shells into your own positions, your own troops are shot when they mess up their passwords, fighters shoot up our own tanks that stray out of formation. The friendly fire deaths can be reduced but not eliminated. The Islamists have made the streets of London their battlefield. The British defense of them will not be perfectly executed. There will be mistakes, some of them unavoidable. But the pursuit of the Muslim terrorists must be pressed until they are caught or killed.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    25 July 2005

    Re: Shot 8 Times

    Your example is misleading in many ways.

    First, I have seen a video of a very alarming demonstration where an attacker with a rubber knife approaches a police officer with a holstered rubber gun from fifteen feet. The attacker can close the distance and stab the officer before he can completely draw his gun. Thirty feet is not all that far for an assailant armed with a knife. You need to have your weapon out and aimed at that distance to be safe. Within six feet, a knife is probably more dangerous than a pistol.

    There must have been one hell of a lot of police to shoot this guy thirty times. In many, if not most police gun battles, nobody gets shot. It’s not unusual for a police officer to empty his gun at an assailant at close range without a single hit. The excitement of the moment is not conducive to the best marksmanship.

    Fifty feet is awfully far for a handgun. Most gunfights occur within six feet. At that distance, you don’t have to have a good hand so much as a cool head.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    25 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]MALIK: Islamists would have to kill hundreds of thousands of British to equal what they have done to Muslim countries. Muslims would actually have to go much farther to equal what has been done in Muslim lands by Westerners, even if we just look at the last 100 years.[/quote]

    Bullcrap. The biggest killers of Muslims are other Muslims. Here’s a rundown of some history:

    Algerian civil war – about 500,000 dead.
    Lebanese Civil war: 100,000 dead, about a million people displaced.
    Darfur: 400,000 dead.
    Syria: 20,000 – 40,000 civilians slaughtered by the Syrian government in Hama
    Saddam Hussain: Millions of people dead, including his assorted genocides and the Iraq-Iran war.
    2005 Iraq: Hundreds of civilians being killed by bombs and suicide bombers (all of whom are Muslim)

    Want to go back 100 years? Complain to the Turks, who almost exclusively Muslim.

    If anything, Muslims should be bombing the hell out the Muslims who abuse them, not shifting the blame to Westerners.

  • anonymous
    25 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    Mahmood: “I say that regardless of clothing, the person not stopping, etc. FIVE bullets are a bit much to ensure that the person actually stops. And the “west” is trying to teach us about human rights and innocent unless proven guilty? Baloney.”

    I disagree, Mahmood. People don’t take half measures when they believe their life is at risk. In close quarters gunfights, most people empty their guns. They don’t stop after one shot or two. There is no time to stop after a bullet or two and weigh the situation. They fire everything they’ve got. Firing only five bullets instead of the full clip is fairly disciplined for these circumstances.

    If you were this cop, thinking that you were confronting a suicide bomber who could detonate himself at any moment to kill you and your fellow cops and passersby, you would not fire one bullet into his head and then stop to chat with your buddies about whether that should do it. You would make sure he can’t possibly trip his detonator. Too many shots is a safer answer than too few. And this decision to shoot needed to be made in a fraction of a second.

    And yes, odd as it seems, this killing is a result of the British respecting individual rights and considering suspects innocent until proven guilty. If they did not, the police would have just raided the whole block of houses suspected to hold terrorists and hauled everyone off to jail to sort it out. But the people inside had rights. The police could have just nabbed this guy the moment he set foot on the sidewalk, if he wasn’t considered innocent until proven guilty. They have to have probable cause they can defend in court.

    It wasn’t until the indicators of guilt accumulated that the police were forced to make a terrible choice. They absolutely could not let a possible suicide bomber run loose on the Tube. Had he run somewhere else, into a park perhaps, the police would have had more options. In this case, the options were not a choice between bad and good, but between bad and worse.

    You’re asking for a standard of perfection that is impossible. You never go into combat with perfect knowledge. It’s always imperfect and you have to make the best decisions you can based on incomplete and contradictory information. The cops made the best possible decision based on what they knew and how their suspect reacted.

    Steve

  • 7alaylia
    25 July 2005

    Re(4): Terrorist attacks in London

    Good comments Strav and Mahmood. My thoughts are with this innocent man. He is a victim of the British police and, I might add, of the terrorists. If not for their bombs, this wouldnt have happened.

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    25 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    Anon,

    I was wrong to crow over this poor unfortunate’s death. I do admit to feeling pretty silly about it now. It seemed at the time that the police had a terror bomber dead to rights. He came out of a house associated with the terrorists. He was wearing a winter coat on a summer day. He ran from the police when told to stop. One witness said she saw wires and a bomb belt as he ran. Now it looks like he was an ordinary joe who just panicked.

    However, the shoot to kill order is still a good policy to use against the Muslim bomb to kill campaign. If the police spot a bomber in public, he should get five shots to the head. It is irresponsible not to shoot him in the head. It is also a good way to intimidate cowardly little Wahhabist punks who want to inflict pain on as many people as possible but who fear physical combat or even intellectual combat.

    There are indeed hate crimes against Muslims in London, but they are a pale shadow of the hate crimes the ingrate Muslim immigrants are committing against the British. The British thugs who commit them should be pursued and punished. Simply put, are Muslims scraping pieces of Muslims off subway walls after being blasted to bits by British bigots? Are Muslims washing Muslim blood off buildings where it was splattered by the gallon by English terrorists? When you equate a few Muslim bruises with barrels of English blood, you are placing a heavy thumb on the scales to make them balance.

    However, I do agree that hate breeds hate. The Muslims should carefully consider where their campaign of hate will lead them. I predict the destination is nowhere they want to be.

    It’s interesting to note that the Muslim bombers identified to date were all considered nice guys by their fellow Muslims who never talked much about the issues which ultimately drove them to mass murder. It is worth noting that these punks went from silence to murder with no intermediate steps. They did not try to present their issues in any non-violent way. Violence was their default argument. My interpretation of this criminal behavior is that it is driven by their Islamic faith, which professing to have all the answers feels no need to argue about them with infidels.

    We’ve all heard the Muslim leaders in Britain do their pro forma condemnations of terror. Now lets see some action. Each one of this second wave of bombers whose photos have been broadcast around the world should be known by dozens of people in their daily orbit. Maybe hundreds. All four of them together should be recognized from their photos by perhaps a thousand people in their community. Where are those phone calls from their fellow Muslims to the police, eager to expell such psychopaths from their midst and defend England from them? By now, there should be neighbors and friends and family and shopkeepers and such from the Muslim community on the news telling the world all about them.

    Where are they?

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    25 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    Strav: “As someone popped this question on another forum in Bahrain… who should we be scared of now? Terrorists or the Police?”

    Maybe its a tough question in Bahrain but it’s not too tough to answer here:
    You should be scared of the terrorists who are desperately trying to kill you
    instead of the police who are trying to defend you.

    Steve

  • fekete
    25 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    Steve Steve Steve ..

    tsk tsk.

    you dissapoint me.

    a significant amount of the reporters and the journalists reporting on what happened in the UK have been moslem. british asian moslems. the anchors on the news shows in the UK have also been good about bringing in the different moslems and having them disagree with each other, on public tv. and, i have been extremely impressed by how resiliently and strongly these british moslems who are willing to speak up against these terrorists have been behaving. specially, since they are then subject to extreme criticisim that they are not real ‘moslems’.

    and, i think it is becoming clear, to everyone, (except maybe hard headed people) that the established moslem ‘leadership’ is not in touch with their youth.

    steve darling – last time you were so black and white about this, you went in head first, full force into Iraq. with your heart and soul.on the basis of ideology. and – all you did was facilitate Iraq’s descent into a civil war. dont make the same mistake now. Iraq could have been avoided if the US had not disbanded the Iraqi army. You needed the ‘good’ iraqis to help you fight the bad Iraqis. And, you screwed up. and then you screwed up even more by not sending enough troops. Dont make the same mistake here. You need the good moslems to fight the ‘bad’ moslems.

    And the good moslems are fighting. And how.

    And the Islamic reformation wont come from the US – it will come from Europe. More tolerace, more freedom of speech, and a much more complex and richer understanding of hisotry and culture where the public here are willing to listen to more than a 1 minute soundbyte in the media.

    hugs and kisses

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    25 July 2005

    Re(2): Terrorist attacks in London

    “Why didn’t he stop when ordered by the Police to do so Strav?”
    Strav: “- why didn’t the police reveal their identity? don’t forget they were in plainclothes!”

    Why do you think they didn’t? According to witnesses, there were at least a dozen cops chasing the guy.

    It just may be that in Brazil, as in most Third World countries, the cops are the crooks. He may not have had enough experience in the developed world to know cops are the good guys here. As I recall, Brazilian cops often conduct on the spot executions during arrests. He may have reacting like a Brazilian would being chased by Brazilian cops without constraints rather than by British cops enforcing law that recognizes individual rights.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    25 July 2005

    Re: Terrorist attacks in London

    Jasra,

    I’m not convinced Iraq is quite in a civil war yet, despite the Sunnis best efforts. The Shia seem to be holding the line on retaliation. So far.

    I’m absolutely convinced that retaining the Iraqi Army intact would have been catastrophic. That would be preserving the dark heart of Baathist/Sunni control over the country. As soon as we pulled out, the old Iraqi army would have made a coup to install a new Baathist/Sunni dictator. The army had to be disbanded and new one formed, just as we did in Germany and Japan after WWII.

    I might also point out, Jasra, that armies are not interchangeable things. The old Iraqi army was a piece of crap and harmful to Iraq. It was top heavy, for one thing. It had generals like the US military has lieutenant colonels. It’s leadership was terrible, as you might expect in a dictatorship. Most of the officer corps from the old Iraqi army that has been brought into the new Iraqi army has proven to be unsalvageable. Instead of caring for the men and leading from the front they feel entitled by their positions and sit back in the bunker with a cool drink while their men fight. They are junk. A whole new generation of leaders needs to be grown with a sense of service to their nation and their people. Hopefully, that army leadership will overflow into the civilian leadership of the future.

    You could never get to the new Iraq with the old Iraqi army, any more than you could build a democratic Germany by preserving the Waffen SS or a democratic Japan by preserving its army and its bushido culture. It’s better in the long run to start fresh rather than to try to reshape an existing organization.

    I also disagree that we have not sent enough troops. There’s more of a danger of sending too many troops, of taking over the war in Iraq as we took over the war in Vietnam. If the Iraqis do not fight their own fight for their own freedom, they will not value it. It’s much better that Iraqis take over the fight against the jihadis and Baathists than we do it for them. We should have sent in more troops if our aim was to own Iraq but we have about the right amount of troops if we intend to pass it on to the Iraqis.

    Jasra, if Europe is more tolerant and has a richer understanding of culture, why are Muslims there less assimilated there than in America? Why do Muslims in Europe segregate themselves in ghettos while Muslims here live everywhere?

    I don’t buy that Europe is more tolerant, either. From all I read and hear, Europe is much more bigoted and racist than America. It’s not believable that Europe has more freedom of expression. There are no bans in America on wearing headscarves. You can not be sued in America for defaming a religion, as Orianna Falaci is being done in Italy. And Britain’s right to speech is much more constrained than the US.

    You just might consider that Europe cares more about culture because it judges you by where you came from. America judges you by where you are headed.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    26 July 2005

    Re(7): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Malik: The claim made was that the war on Iraq was part of the war on terror. It would seem that it wasnt before the US invasion, but it sure is now. Furthermore, the US invasion is swelling the ranks of those wishing to attack America. [/quote]

    It’s swelling the ranks, huh? You mean all those Saudi suicide bombers are coming back from Iraq?

    [quote]Malik: The US invasion of Iraq has made the world a much more dangerous place, and will do so for years. The true scope of which, like with al-Queda in Afghanistan, will not be known for years to come.[/quote]

    The kill-crazy Muslims don’t need Iraq for an excuse to attack America. They attacked America on Sep 11 before Iraq was an issue, after we had defended Saudi Arabia from its fellow Muslims and saved the Muslims in Kosovo and Kuwait. If they didn’t have Iraq as an excuse, it would be Afghanistan or Israel or the Crusades or they got shorted a cheeseburger in the drive-through at the Cairo’s McDonalds. They are predisposed to attack non-Muslims. They want to conquer the world for Islam and everything else is just an excuse. What we do or don’t do makes no difference. At the heart of Islam lies an unreasoning hate for all else.

    The proof of this is the current jihad in Thailand, where Muslims are busy cutting the heads off Buddhists and butchering 800 of them so far. They are especially fond of burning down schools and killing the teachers. In some cases, the Muslims followed the teachers home, broke into their homes in the middle of the night, and murdered them in their beds. Thailand has nothing to do with Iraq or Afghanistan or Israel or the Crusades.

    Thailand’s troubles began after Saudi Arabia sent missionaries to set up Wahhabi schools to indoctrinate the young into hating the Buddhists. The terrorists slinked in to the schools and organized the dimwitted haters they had recruited from the young men. And then they set to butchering Buddhists to build a Muslim super-state out of Thailand and its neighbors.

    The Wahhabi rats will continue to whip up hatred to serve their bloody Islamic imperialism no matter what we do. That ignorant Neanderthal intolerance of all others is the root of the evil here. The answer is to fight it where ever it spreads, to extirpate it, in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and hopefully one day in Saudi Arabia.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    26 July 2005

    Re(1): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Malik: Muslims were speaking out long before 9/11, the west just wasnt listening. The very same people who say that Muslims didnt speak out after 9/11 ignore the hundreds of condemnations that rang from the corners of the Islamic world.[/quote]

    Horse shit.

    Steve

  • [deleted]0.95776700 1099323586.392
    26 July 2005

    Re(9): Terrorist attacks in London

    [quote]Malik: I dont think Saddam would have invaded the rest of the countries in the area. [/quote]

    You mean Saddam did not invade Saudi Arabia at Khafji? Or is that impossible because you don’t think Saddam would do that? And please, Iraq had no legitimate issues with Kuwait. Those were an excuse to invade.

    [quote]Malik: Someday the conflict in Iraq will be over. The fighters, like when they beat the Soviets, have to go somewhere. Al Queda grew out of Afghanistan. A much more powerful more lethal force is growing and coming out of Iraq.[/quote]

    Plenty of jihadis survived Afghanistan to fight another jihad elsewhere. By contrast, the jihadis going to Iraq are mere cannon fodder who are killed by the dozens every day. The jihadis who fought the Marines in Fallujah won’t be fighting anybody in the future but worms. As one US military officer said, the jihadis went to Afghanistan to fight, they go to Iraq to die.

    Steve

  • anonymous
    29 July 2005

    Hero Of Islam

    The people of his home village in Pakistan held a funeral, though without the body, for Shehzad Tanweer, one of four Muslim Tube bombers in London on July 7. Thousands of people showed up to pay their respects and pray for his swift passage to paradise as a shahid. They praised him as a “hero of Islam.”

    Steve

  • mahmood
    29 July 2005

    Re: Hero Of Islam

    This is absolutely sickening. It’s like what they did in Jordan for a Jordanian suicide bomber in Iraq. Something is terribly wrong with this picture and needs to be fixed.

  • anonymous
    30 July 2005

    Terrorist attacks in London

    In recent days, there have been so many comments on the blogosphere about how the U.S./British military intervention in Afghanistan and Iraq have been responsible for radicalizing the likes of the four nice British lads who blew up the London subway. But could someone explain to me patiently and clearly, as if I were a six-year-old, what should have been done with a Taliban-ruled, al Quaeda-harboring Afghanistan, especially after Saudi Arabia’s golden sons destroyed the World Trade Center? Should we have said politely to Mullah Omar, “Look, these guys just killed 3,000 innocent folks on our soil in an unprovoked attack. Would you be kind enough to hand them over to us? Would you please, please…?” Would he have listened?

    The case for Iraq is much murkier. Granted, the U.S. attack on the Saddam regime was based on a pack of lies, but isn’t the bulk of civilian killings in that country being perpetrated by other Muslims, the upstanding and irresistible “insurgents”? And what about Saddam Hussein himself? Didn’t he kill tens of thousands of his own people during his years in power? Mass graves have been found all over Iraq, especially in the Shia areas of the South. Is Muslim-on-Muslim killing somehow more defensible than if foreign forces are involved?

    Just looking for some clarification.

  • Chivas
    10 December 2006

    I was there ! I saw the chaos…and I was stuck in paralyzed London for six hours.

    Poor London, it didn’t deserve the poisonous plot of mental people.

    Love you London…The GREATEST CITY ON PLANET EARTH!!!

  • Citizen Quasar
    19 December 2006

    The British government, via MI-6, carried out these attacks. See Alex Jones’ film Terrorstorm for details.

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