What’s the gift you may ask? A copy of the translated Qur’an and a booklet on how to convert to Islam.
Where was this stand you might ask? AT THE FORMULA ONE CIRCUIT IN BAHRAIN! Since when was a motorsport venue a space for religious missionaries?
Their “advertising” is deceptive as well, there is no where on the stand to say that they are missionaries, and the “gift” itself has nothing about Islam on the box, just a picture of a fast F1-like car, so if this isn’t entrapment, I don’t know what is.
The BIC/Bahrain Government should seriously think about allowing things like this in a motorsporting show, and if they do which is fully within their rights of course, just ensure that the stand signage says what it should say, rather than deceptively catching people unawares…
Comments
Please Take Your Gift
I dont see the issue with allowing missionaries at a motorshow, although I certainly see the issue with trying to cover up what their intentions are. I have seen similiar type things here in the USA, but the missionaries are Christian.
I dont think any government should be in the business of telling people what they can and cant do at a motorshow, or anything else for that matter. I think it is low class for these people to be deceptive. I also think it is counter-productive.
Please Take Your Gift
In looking at the picture you might notice their banner says “Discover Islam Centre”. The box might have a car on it, but it would seem their banner was rather clear. “Discover Islam Centre.”
Didnt you see that? I didnt notice it until I enlarged the picture. It is in Arabic and English.
Please Take Your Gift
Also, in looking at the boxes, I can see the picture of the car, I can see the welcome to Bahrain, but there is other writing on it as well. If they have included the “Discover Islam Centre” on these boxes, in English and Arabic, like they have done on the banner, I dont think they have done anything wrong at all. In the US at a “Discover Christianity Centre” you would expect them to hand out Bibles, especially if the banner and the logo is on the box as well. I would suspect the fancy logo and boxes are trying to be modern and catch people’s eyes. If their logo is on the box, no harm, no foul.
Please Take Your Gift
It says it’s from the “Discover Islam Center” as someone mentioned above. In another pic, I thought it was free videos, the angle the pic was taken is deceptive.
Please Take Your Gift
I’m not too much bothered by it, despite the deceptive advertising and misdirection. At least they are trying to peacefully promote their religion instead of trying to butcher everyone with a car bomb or something to promote Islam.
I could live with it.
Steve
Gotta agree with Steve
If they are peaceful and orderly, and not pulling a “Clockwork Orange Force Feeding Session” then I say no harm, no foul.
Besides, I like their “racey” red vests 😀
Salaam Alaikum,
PM
Please Take Your Gift
I always send proselytisers packing if they approach me with anything other than hard cash. Do people really convert to a religion just because someone gives them a wee giftie? Aren’t they likely to convert to something else next week in return for an even better giftie? The Hari Krishnas are very generous, I’ve found – limitless free books (all sadly unreadable), free food, weekend breaks in Hari Krishna temples on pleasant country estates, interesting haircuts … It’s surprising they don’t rule the world by now.
Re: Please Take Your Gift
I fail how to see that it is deceptive advertizing. The banner clearly states they are an Islamic organisation and the covers on the books seem to be a mirror copy of the banner. If both the banner and the box state the name of the organisation, what is the issue?
Odd, people want Islam and Muslims to modernize, when they do people cry foul. I see nothing wrong with a bit of flash in the display. We feel safe to say we would not be having this conversation if this was done by a Christian group or otherwise. There are only two points here to consider. 1-The banner clearly stated the group was an Islamic organisation. 2-The packages were clearly a mirror image of the banner. So there was no deception or misdirection. Both of these items made it clear who the group was that was distributing this material. I am suprised the owner of this blog even brought this point up. Did he fail to look at his own picture?
As to your rude statements about Islam, that just shows your ignorance of Muslims and Islam.
I Met Mahmood!
Well, the whole intention behind this blog is to make everyone jealous.
Because, my dear fellow bloggers, the majority of you guys have not met Mahmood, and I did – this afternoon, at Mahmood’s Den, in the heart of Bahrain.
Trust me – he’s as loveable as a teddy bear! To top it, a thinking bear and one helluva guy! Its next to impossible not to love him. He has this amazing charm that can make a six-month old baby fall asleep, and an 80-year-old man to growl to life!
I spent more than an hour talking to him, during which he talked about how much he enjoys yelling at us bloggers! To him, we’re a big family.
Mahmood is a personification of all that can help build bridges across rivers across cultures… he’s a lover of mankind who values human rights and respects freedom of speech.
Cheers Mahmood! Given half a chance, I’ll haunt you again!
[Modified by: lawnn_mower (lawnn_mower) on April 08, 2005 09:22 AM]
RE: Please Take Your Gift
I’m sure Formula One was born after God.
Why is everyone making such a big issue out of sending out God’s word??
I don’t think God knows any politics, language or colour.
Does it matter if its a motorsport, regional or international? Someone is trying to try the goodwill, so why should anyone want to spoil the spirit?
Language or no language, colour or no colour. Even tribes in Africa, who never heard of civilization until 1920’s, worshipped God with a silent language.
Ans now that we are literate, we’re just looking at how it matters it our in own lives.
Re: (Steve) Please Take Your Gift
QUOTE: “despite the deceptive advertising and misdirection. At least they are trying to peacefully promote their religion instead of trying to butcher everyone with a car bomb or something to promote Islam. At least they are trying to peacefully promote their religion instead of trying to butcher everyone with a car bomb or something to promote Islam.”
Steve, thats a sarcastic and cynical remark.
Care to explain what’s “deceptive advertising”, Steve? Isn’t all advertising trying to attract?? If not, why should any one advertise at all???
You must justify your posts. Its not fair to say something at random, Steve.
Also, whats misdirection? We’re trying to build goodwill, and you’re making unjustified remarks!
Please Take Your Gift
Just simply ingnore it. If they try and get your attention, simply respond, “Not interested, thank you” And just walk-away. ‘Tis what I would do. I can careless if they’re trying to promote their religion at a Sporting Event, I don’t have to pay attention to it.
Re(1): Please Take Your Gift
Posted “Many Islamic missionary orgs get governmental support, and thus can afford to ship their materials in nice boxes. Usually the Christian orgs are self-funded and usually do minis. ”
LOL! Islam has nothing that can compare to the Catholic Church!
Please Take Your Gift
As others have said, this is no different than evangelicals handing out Bibles on college campuses or giving away Christian literature at soup kitchens. I’m actually not surprised that the ‘Discover Islam Center’ did this at the F1 race: First of all, there’s a lot of foreigners, and most have not heard anything about Islam, so catch them with the propaganda and flashy cars early.
In the battle for people’s mindshare even religions have to promote themselves! Luckily, unlike most things, flashy packaging of religions doesn’t dilute the overall message, usually. Still, crap in a shiny box is still crap as some converts to every religion will ultimately discover 😀
Re: Please Take Your Gift
You are as insulting as ever. Just because you have no religious values of your own doesnt mean you can denigrate anyone else that does. That is the absolute crux of your problem Ethan, you just cannot really understand ANYONE who has religious belief. You have a bigger issue with Islam because it is just demanding of a religion than the rest.
[Modified by: Malik (celticview) on April 08, 2005 08:47 AM]
Re(1): Please Take Your Gift
How are they trying to shove Islam down anyone’s throat? Were they flogging people who refused to take the gift? It seems that you have an issue with Dawa of any kind Mahmood. The banner was clear, the people were from an Islamic group. I feel this is the real issue with you. I think if they had a large banner that said nothing but “Islamic Dawa Booth” you would have complained that they had no role there. I think there is no way these guys would have won with you.
If, as you say, you want an open and free society you should stop calling for the government to get involved in issues like this, as you did in your original post. The idea of freedom, especially as we know it here in the West, is when government stays OUT of this sort of issue. If the government, or anyone else for that matter, were to ban something like this in the US there would be multiple lawsuits because it is not right for the government to get involved in issues of this matter. How can you want them to get involved in an issue like this, then complain when they get involved in other issues? All of which are really incidental and dont matter. You complained about the government wasting time on people hanging underwear yet you want them to get involved in saying what sort of banners or packing religious groups must be required to use when in public? Dont you see the double standard there? Either the government stays out of petty small stuff or it doesnt. You cannot advocate them getting involved in some petty stuff, but slam them for getting involved in another petty stuff. I think the government needs to stay out of all of these sort of nonsense issues.
As to where The Qur’an ends up. They all end up in the bin at the end of the day anyway. What do you do with a Qur’an that has had something spilled on it or that has been destroyed or damaged in some way? It is the word of God, it doesnt matter where it goes. It does not harm or demean the word in anyway. Islam has been around for 1,400, I can estimate that millions of them have ended up in the bin. I can tell you that many people have Qur’ans that have been sitting in their houses for years without having been picked up or looked at, it is a part of the house’s decoration. They have thick layers of dust on them from lack of use. I think it is these Qur’ans that have been more disrespected and abused than those that some non Muslim throws in a bin.
As to it being the wrong venue, I dont think there is such a thing. All venues are proper places for the word of God. If you dont like it, dont associate with these people and dont go to the booth, but it is not freedom to suggest that they not be allowed to do it. That is the opposite of freedom.
Re(1): Please Take Your Gift
If the Koran is wrapped in packaging that does not indicate its contents, in this case by Mahmood’s account a box decorated with a racing car, that does deceive the recipient who probably thinks it is some sort of racing trinket. Of course, my knowledge of the Koran is admittedly shaky, but I don’t recall that Mohammed delivered his sermons from a Porsche. However, that said, I consider such disception to be a harmless misdemeanor. As I said, it is a vast improvement over the current Islamic fad of propagating the faith through mass murder.
I’m none too impressed by your bogus charge of bigotry, that I am critical of this practice because Muslims are doing it. First, it demonstrates that your brand of Islam is such a weak and brittle faith that it can not stand even mild criticism. Second, the Christian fundamentalists do this kind of stuff all the time right here in America. You get invited to a barbecue on a nice Sunday afternoon and the next thing you know you’re in a prayer session with your hands full of barbecue sauce and a plate of potato salad in your lap. I chuckle at them just like I’m chuckling at you.
As for my knowledge of Islam and Muslims, I have received quite a profound education as to what Muslims and Islam are all about by watching jumbo jets crash into the World Trade Center on Sep 11, Al Qaeda snuff videos, Bali bombing news clips, events in Beslan, and video from the security cameras at the Madrid train station.
Steve
Re(2): Please Take Your Gift
Yes, and the world has seen what Christian nations are all about. WW1, WW2, The Crusades, Vietnam, right wing death squads. Your analogies are stupid Steve. Your hatred is sick and overwhelming. I am glad you do not travel, you would be the typical “ugly American” that the world hates so much.
I am glad you do nothing but run your mouth here Steve, the world doesnt need any more hatred than it already has.
Re(1): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]Do you think the bin is the right place for the Holy Qur’an?[/quote]
Along with ANY Holy book the answer is NO!
I will blame the “Givers� of the gift. They are the ones who put the Qur’an in a situation where is could be discarded in the trash. If they had been honest, ALL of the people who trashed a copy would have left it sitting on the table. To bad they weren’t given that option.
I’m sorry you had to witness this insult Mahmood.
Re(1): (Steve) Please Take Your Gift
Advertising is a fine thing if what you see is what you get. However, if you’re handing out boxes with race cars on them to find Korans inside, there is a mismatch between what you are pitching and what you are delivering. However, as I said before to the last Easily Offended Muslim, this is a minor grievance. They are giving away Free Stuff after all, and free stuff is always good. You would just expect a religious organization to be more honest about what they’re handing out.
Steve
Re(3): Please Take Your Gift
I must agree with you, Malik. The Muslim world is delivering plenty of hate to the world at the moment. We hardly need any more.
I see that you are extending your contempt for America to the entire Christian world. Don’t you think that undercuts your message against hate? And your comment about me not travelling is just silly.
Steve
Re(2): Please Take Your Gift
Like suicide bombers and head-cutters, for example.
Steve
Re(2): Please Take Your Gift
What do you think has happened to all of The Qur’ans, Torahs and Bibles that have been destroyed or damaged over the years? The whole situation has nothing to do with The Qur’an and where it might end up. The whole situation has to do with the fact that Mahmood didnt like the fact that they were doing missionary work at a F-1 show. He even said this wasnt the appropriate place for it. The issue is this, not The Qur’an. Like I have said before, The Qur’ans sitting at home, never touched and with a layer of dust on them is more of an insult to The Qur’an and God than a non Muslim putting it in the trash. Thousands and thousands of religious texts from all faiths get thrown away every year and have since they were written. If we kept all of them, destroyed or not, there wouldnt be room to sit.
This is all about the role of religious missionaries and where people think they should or shouldnt be and what methods they shouldnt or shouldnt use. The success of any religion is based on its merits. The more merits the religion has, the more success it has in gaining converts.
I say let them all all religious missionaries do as they wish. Do NOT let government get involved in silly issues like this, ESPECIALLY if they relate to religion. We need less government interference in our lives not more.
Re(3): Please Take Your Gift
Posted “Like suicide bombers and head-cutters, for example.
Steve”
Steve, I do think in all of my travels over the years I have NEVER encountered such a hateful and bigoted man. I have met radical Wahabis that you make look like a nun. You are a sick and twisted man and for the world’s sake I hope there arent many more out there like you. You would be right at home in the heart of the Najd. Bigots and extremists like you deserve each other.
Please Take Your Gift
I don’t think this is strange at all; Christians do this sort of thing all the time in my part of the ‘States. At even the most secular of events, there’s almost always somebody handing out Christian pamphlets and “abridged bibles” (which contain only the second half of the Bible and are therefore pretty useless (([i]unless you are already a Christian but you have been swindled by an unscrupulous Bible salesman who only sold you the first half and you desperately want to know what happens next![/i])) Perhaps they’re afraid that if they distributed the whole thing, some impatient soul would convert to Judaism before they got all the way through?)
But this..this sounds schweet. A pamphlet *and* a Quran, all in a nice red box? At least Islamic missionaries aren’t cheap.
Re(4): Please Take Your Gift
Posted “I must agree with you, Malik. The Muslim world is delivering plenty of hate to the world at the moment. We hardly need any more.
I see that you are extending your contempt for America to the entire Christian world. Don’t you think that undercuts your message against hate? And your comment about me not travelling is just silly.
Steve”
Steve, I suggest you get yourself examined. I do not have contempt for anything about America except for its foreign policy. That is fine, the vast majority of the world, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist and Muslim agrees with me on this measure.
Your words do not reflect anyone who has traveled. Your words and thoughts are of a bitter old man. Your defensiveness, your hatred and bigotry shows me that you have a very serious self-esteem issue that forces you to denigrate others to make yourself feel better. Once again I will say that I am glad that you do nothing in life to try to affect a change because YOUR way is hatred, strife and division. It is of the past.
As a Muslim I pray for your soul because your hatred, your racism and your sectarianism will cost you dearly.
Please Take Your Gift
From this point on Steve I will not respond to any of your ignorant hate filled rants anymore. I honestly think they do a better job of making you look like an idiot than anything I can do. I will not lend any credibility to anything you say by responding to it. People here see your nonsense and your hatred for what it is.
Inta-Ahbal….You are an idiot. You make that case better than I can myself.
Re(4): Please Take Your Gift
Steve’s Primer On Malik’s Tactics
4. If the comment is undeniably true, call the poster a bigot and extremist.
So, Malik, are you saying that there are Catholic suicide bombers and Catholic priests turning out snuff videos of themselves sawing off Muslim heads? You seem to be dodging the question with a cloud of abuse. Or are you saying it’s not fair to point out the crimes of Muslims? Is it just bigotry to point out that Muslim terrorists are slaughtering thousands of people around the world to promote their faith or is it bigotry to actually perform such slaughter?
Steve
Re: Please Take Your Gift
You’re still responding, Malik.
My guess is that this is a resolution that will take about ten minutes to break.
Steve
Please Take Your Gift
All of you need to take a look at the main picture Mahmood posted. The sign clearly says “Discover Islam Centre” at about eye level. Next to the boxes with The Qur’ans in them are layed out all sorts of pamplets and books about Islam and converting to Islam. The sign, right next to where it says “Discover Isam Centre” says “Please Take Your Free Gift”. So people HAD to have walked up to the tables. Did they miss the sign proclaiming it was an Islamic group? Did they miss the other Islamic materials on the table? I think it would be far fetched to think that anyone would walk up to such a booth, see the sign, see the other materials on display, and think that they were going to get a free radio or a bottle of beer.
They had to walk up to an Islamic booth with clearly displayed Islamic materials and “Ask”(as the sign clearly states) for a free gift. No one thinking rationally after this would expect to get anything different than what they did.
Again, I do not think this issue has anything to do with deception, it has to do with the fact that some people think Islamic missionary work should not have happened here in any manner. I would not have matter if the sign said “Come to Islam Now”, the complaints issued would still have been made, just with a different twist. The issue at hand is religious missionary work.
Anyone who came to this booth with its clear sign and the Islamic material laying clearly out in the open for view and expected something different isnt thinking. As for me, I welcome a free exchange of views and ideas. I wish there had been a Christian missionary booth right next to it, and if Jews did missionary work, their booth right next to it. The more the merry. Freedom……got to love it!
Please Take Your Gift
It’s a bad idea for government to be banning this sort of thing. Even though some sensibilities might be offended, it is harmless and is free speech. Unless of course, the racetrack is privately owned, then the owner has the right to ban or allow any activity he/she wants. Giving out free Korans isn’t shoving religion down people’s throats as they can keep it or give it back. But by all means, complain to the missionary organization or to the racetrack owner.
Aliandra
Re(5): Please Take Your Gift
Malik,
I have just examined myself in the bathroom mirror and everything seems to check out OK. Thanks for the tip, though.
I’m pretty surprised to hear that the vast majority of the world hates America. You might want to make more effort to get the word out because most of the world wants to move to America. I keep tripping over people from all over the world who have moved to Washington, DC. Many of them are shockingly unaware that they should hate America or that America hates them. Quite frankly, you need to clue them in on this hate thing so that they stop moving here and drive up the housing prices. It costs $300,000 for a nice single room condo here. If you could talk all the foreigners into thinking we hate them, maybe they’d go somewhere else and the prices could come down. But then, after I got mine, they should move back and drive the prices back up so I can make a huge profit. Those are my thoughts on this issue.
And, by the way, I have travelled to quite a bit of the world, actually flown myself. I’ve seen enough of the world to know that most of the people in it aren’t raving nutcases like yourself. Most people in the world receive Americans very well. That’s my experience in Asia and Europe and Oceania.
I’m surprised to learn that you are a psychologist now, diagnosing people on the Internet. Isn’t it kind of a crazy coincidence that everyone who disagrees with you seems to be diagnosed as crazy? Or then again, maybe it is just one more of Malik’s phony poses of bogus erudition.
Still, I’m happy to hear that I am in your prayers, as long as those prayers don’t include any high explosives in the current Muslim fashion.
Steve
Please Take Your Gift
[quote] Freedom……got to love it![/quote]
Unless you don’t share the same views of freedom and ideas as you do…, Right Malik? Then again with your past history you know all about becoming a “free man”… Don’t you?
Do us all a favor and BACK off a bit. You don’t have to respond to nearly EVERY SINGLE thing on this blog do you?
Re: Please Take Your Gift
Posted “Unless you don’t share the same views of freedom and ideas as you do…, Right Malik? Then again with your past history you know all about becoming a “free man”… Don’t you?
Do us all a favor and BACK off a bit. You don’t have to respond to nearly EVERY SINGLE thing on this blog do you? ”
If they are addressed to me, why wouldnt I respond? As to freedom, I advocate it for everyone, regardless of viewpoint, creed or religion, as long as it doesnt hurt others. Freedom isnt freedom if it only counts for you and yours. Being a person that loves diversity and the differences in man, I would hardly like everyone to be the same.
Re: Please Take Your Gift
Posted “It’s a bad idea for government to be banning this sort of thing. Even though some sensibilities might be offended, it is harmless and is free speech. Unless of course, the racetrack is privately owned, then the owner has the right to ban or allow any activity he/she wants. Giving out free Korans isn’t shoving religion down people’s throats as they can keep it or give it back. But by all means, complain to the missionary organization or to the racetrack owner.”
Here here! Something we can agree upon. Alhamdulillah.
Re(2): Please Take Your Gift
From someone who’s been a so called muslim for a couple of days to just assume that I – a borne muslim who has lived amongst the faithful for the whole of my life – am against Islam, Muslims and spreading the faith because of your own prejudices and skewed understanding of my religion is a bit rich Malik. For the record, my objection is centered upon the appropriability of spreading the faith in a venue which I believe is not proper. You have a problem with that. Fine, that’s no skin off my nose nor does it concern me at all. To each his own.
However, let me make a deal with you: Disappear, I doubt anyone here is going to miss your “sense of right”. Go waste someone else’s time and bandwidth. I’m certainly not going to bother with you. If you have any dignity at all, you will leave us alone forthwith.
Bye bye…
Re(3): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]Do NOT let government get involved in silly issues like this, ESPECIALLY if they relate to religion.[/quote]
Where in my post did I say anything about that? If I wanted to discuss that, I would have linked to one of your 13 posts! My response was to Mahmood and his question about the trash bin.
Re(3): Please Take Your Gift
Posted “From someone who’s been a so called muslim for a couple of days to just assume that I – a borne muslim who has lived amongst the faithful for the whole of my life – am against Islam, Muslims and spreading the faith because of your own prejudices and skewed understanding of my religion is a bit rich Malik. For the record, my objection is centered upon the appropriability of spreading the faith in a venue which I believe is not proper. You have a problem with that. Fine, that’s no skin off my nose nor does it concern me at all. To each his own.
However, let me make a deal with you: Disappear, I doubt anyone here is going to miss your “sense of right”. Go waste someone else’s time and bandwidth. I’m certainly not going to bother with you. If you have any dignity at all, you will leave us alone forthwith.
Bye bye… ”
The message of God is for all times and for all places. I do not believe there is a “proper place” for God or His message, it is eternal. I care not what you think of me Mahmood. It is clear to me what you are. You know it as well. Your religion? Mafee deen!
Your desire and knowledge of freedom is as thin as your religion Mahmood. Go drink that with your beer next to your Christmas tree.
Re(4): Please Take Your Gift
You might want to go ahead and show everyone how much you desire freedom of speech by banning me from the site. Freedom of speech? You dont know the meaning of it. You just got done suggesting the government BAN freedom for certain events. Like the poster said earlier, more properly addressed to you, is that freedom only counts when it is for what YOU think.
I am for OPEN discussion from EVERYONE! I do not want to ban anything. Mahmood, you cannot claim to want freedom and then want to pull it from some. You either want it or you dont. You want the government to ban something you dont like now, what if someone wants them to ban YOU next? That is why I am not in favour of banning anything, let alone religion or religious speech.
Re(1): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]Just because you have no religious values of your own doesnt mean you can denigrate anyone else that does.[/quote]
Sure he can. He just did. Why should religious values be respected any more than, say, deeply held political or non-religious ethical values? Particularly given that many religions themselves merrily denigrate any non-believer, promising them much smiting and eternal hellfire – which The Qur’an most certainly does.
Anyway, Malik, I do hope you’ll visit my Happy Heretics stall at the forthcoming Donkey Derby in Bridlington-on-Sea.
Re(4): Please Take Your Gift
and with that ladies and gentlemen, let us welcome Malik to his real points of view vis-a-vis human beings and religion: everyone else is wrong, he’s the only one who understands. He has come to the very crux of his own brand of religion, painting everyone else as a Kafir, unbeliever, “Mafee deen”.
Malik, bugger off. You have been discovered a long time ago. Now it’s finally your time to return to the rock you crawled out from under. No more soap-box for you on this forum.
Re(5): Please Take Your Gift
nothing against freedom of speach actually, just quite a lot of contempt for you and for what you stand for. you keep forgeting that this is my space and you are a guest here. I have been courteous to all, but this courtesy has not rubbed off on you. you continue to go personal and flame anyone you disagree with. I have not curtailed your responses, off the wall as they are and let you have your own podium which resulted really in you hijacking my site and you are too much of a coward to start your own.
this is the end of the road for us. I am sure that quite a number of regulars here will be breathing a sigh of relief.
Re(6): Please Take Your Gift
AMEN Mahmood!!!!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re(5): Please Take Your Gift
hmmm…ur right steve..we don’t call IRA bombers Catholic bombers do we…or ETA bombers in Spain either for that matter… of course this terrorism is to promote christianity too
Bahrania
Re(5): Please Take Your Gift
Mahmood, Mahmood, Mahmood,
I object to you being so hard on Malik. That’s MY job, dammit! If you’re going to beat up on poor little Malik, what’s left for ME to do? I’m out of a job, Mahmood. That’s where I am: Unemployment City.
Even worse, you’ve told him to bugger off. That’s worse than anything I’ve ever told him. Obviously, you are some kind of extremist. Just like Bin Laden.
Shocked & Awed,
Steve
Re(6): Please Take Your Gift
yeah I’m in a kind of mellow mood this afternoon… never fear though Steve, we’ll find you another pet to peeve! 😉
Re: Please Take Your Gift
nope, the boxes don’t have anything on them that would show the receiver what the contents are. The Arabic on the box simply states “Take your gift” and that is it.
To me, the whole display is deceptive. They are pulling unsuspecting people in and then trying to shove religion down their thoats. And I don’t care if the situation is replicated in trying to promote Christianity, Judaism, Hinuism or any other *ism you like. They should clearly have a big banner with their intentions declared in large letters, rather than the much smaller type they used to say that they are the Discover Islam Centre.
This is however what I have seen, an unsuspecting motorsports tourist approaches, he gets handed the “package” he walks away opening it as he does so thinking he’ll get something about motorsports, a restaurant guide, a tourist map, etc and discovers that someone wants to convert him. The same person (several actually) walk then to the closest rubbish bin and toss the whole package in there.
Do you think the bin is the right place for the Holy Qur’an?
THAT my friends is what I object to. That was the wrong venue.
Re: I Met Mahmood!
awww blush :blush:!!
I enjoyed meeting you too and welcome into our madhouse 😉
Re(6): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]we don’t call IRA bombers Catholic bombers do we…[/quote]
I think we probably would if the IRA’s goal was to create some global Catholic superstate, and if the IRA were an international rather than national (and decidely nationalistic) terror organisation.
In fact here in the UK Roman Catholicism and Protestantism are pretty much always mentioned in reports of the Troubles in Northern Ireland. You routinely hear newsreaders referring to “Protestant Loyalist groups” or “clashes between Catholics and Protestants in Belfast” and so on.
Re(7): Please Take Your Gift
I was referring specifically to the phrase Catholic_Terrorism per se…or Protestant_Terrorism or Christian_Terrorism…. like you often refer to Islamic_Terrorism…and the IRA took its campaign to the UK capital London where you were afraid to set foot on a bus, there weren’t even any litter bins around as they were so scared of bombs being placed in them… i don’t care what the IRA intentions were or what Al-qaeda’s intentions are…but the fact that you brushstroke your comments over an entire religion bothers me…
Re(1): I Met Mahmood!
Thank you Mahmood, for the welcome to the “madhouse!”
Well, I don’t think its a madhouse at all, I find really great people posting thought-provoking remarks here!
I just want to be here at least once every day, and check out what the world has to say about life in general and Bahrain in particular.
I’m not a Bahraini, but you guys are so warm-hearted to everone that sets me thinking where all that love comes from. I’ve met countless Bahrainis, and the love and confidence is always there. As unmistakable as a signature.
I’ve never been afraid to ask for directions in a strange streetin Bahrain! Its not so in my country, nor is it in the US where I lived five years. (In East San Jose, California, its scary to ask even school children! Some of them used to carry handguns – and drugs – in their backpacks way back in 1994 when I lived there.)
Where does this concept of hospitality come from? Is it Islam? Or is it Bahrain?
I’m sure its not me!
Thanks again, Mahmood.
Re(8): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]I was referring specifically to the phrase Catholic_Terrorism per se…or Protestant_Terrorism or Christian_Terrorism…. like you often refer to Islamic_Terrorism[/quote]
Mmmm, but that’s because the goals of the IRA are not religious goals. They are nationalist goals. Like it or not, the likes of bin Laden express their objectives entirely in terms of Islam. The IRA were, specifically, Irish Republicans – hence Irish Republican Army – and they were not joined by random Catholics from all over the world intent upon fighting some supposedly Catholic war again Evil Infidels.
btw, I lived in London throughout the IRA’s major period of activity. I never met or saw anyone who was scared to get on a bus. We had bomb scares all the time – I was personally caught up in at least one every month (a scare, not an actual bomb) and you’d be amazed how blase everyone was about them. There were so many that it just became routine to be ordered off the Tube train or away from a certain street or whatever.
Re(6): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]Bahrania: hmmm…ur right steve..we don’t call IRA bombers Catholic bombers do we…or ETA bombers in Spain either for that matter… of course this terrorism is to promote christianity too [/quote]
Bahrania my dear,
The ETA is a secular Basque nationalist movement. The Basques are a Christian ethnic group, but they are not killing Spaniards and French to spread the Gospel of Christ but rather to form their own ethnic state.
Likewise the Irish Republican Army does its terror to form an Irish state independent of the United Kingdom, hence the “Irish Republic” in its name. While there is a split between Catholics and Protestants, this is not a fight about religion but rather Irish nationalism.
Neither of these disreputable organizations kills to spread their religion, as fundamentalist Muslims do. Neither of these organizations has the backing of the Catholic Church, as fundamentalist Muslims enjoy the support of bloodthirsty Muslim clergy. For example, Saudi clergy issued a fatwa to Muslim jihadis to approve the use of nuclear weapons against the US in the jihad. I have yet to see the Pope issue a papal bull urging Christian nations to nuke Muslim nations to spread Christianity.
Both of these secular terror organizations have only local aims, as opposed to the worldwide campaign of terror against other religions being waged by the Muslim world from New York to Bali. These organizations want to establish their own state where they live. The Muslim jihadis want to establish an Islamic empire that rules the world, to place the black flag of Islam over every Western capital. They flatly state that every other faith and philosophy but Islam must be eradicated.
Steve
Re(5): Please Take Your Gift
You might be interested to know that the most prolific suicide bombers, before their recent ceasefire, were the Tamil Tigers, a decidedly non Islam group. The first suicide bomber in the Middle East was a Christian.
This is hardly a Muslim tactic.
Re(5): Please Take Your Gift
I think it is wrong for both of you to start pointing the finger at the other. Especially with this “who is Muslim” nonsense.
I suggest both of you go ask yourself some questions and look in the mirror and answer them. The only person that knows the answer is you and God.
1. Do you believe that the only God is Allah and that his Prophet is Mohammed?
2. Do you keep your five prayers a day?
3. Do you fast during the month of Ramadan?
4. Do you give Zakat?
5. If you can afford it, have you made Hajj?
Look in the mirror and answer these to yourselves. These questions, more than anything you proclaim yourself, mark you as a Muslim.
As to living in a “land of believers”. What utter hogwash. Some of the great disbelievers and hypocrits I have ever met have been in the “land of the believers”. The Middle East, especially the gulf, is full of them.
As a Muslim born in the gulf I saw this on a daily basis growing up. The greatest respect I have always had is for those believers, who lived in the west, yet were still able to remain true to their faiths and their ideals. Those are the best of people. Those who live in the “land of the believers” will find it much easier to keep their faith where there is a masjid on ever corner. In the West, where keeping your faith is a hourly and daily test, this is much harder.
I went to university in the west. I know many Muslims and Arabs who forgot who they were and where they came from. They wanted so much to be “modern” and “western” that they lost their religion, their culture(not always a bad thing). They cannot accept the fact that they will always be Arab and always be Muslim. Accept it.
Malik
Salaam Alaikum.
Can’t you respectfully take a hint and back off a little? You inundate this forum with your (probably) well-meaning but oppressively self-righteous “Islamic” take on just about everything. You have engaged in endless disagreements with almost every poster on this forum (except me — perhaps because I haven’t posted much lately or perhaps because I possess almost legendary patience) and have very little in the way of anything that could reasonably be called constructive dialogue. And worst of all is that you come into your willing host’s den and proceed to judge him and his faith — condemning both in your personal religious kangaroo court.
I have some suggestion for you to consider:
1. Get your own blog/website and concentrate your energy and gift of gab there.
2. Go to Islam Online where you can debate and pontificate with some of the most relentless and self-righteous personalities on the Internet.
3. Limit your posts to 5 per 24 hour period; make them constructive & rhetoric-free; do not erngage in any back and forth arguing; control yourself from responding to everything you read with anything that enters your mind (you might try writing the response and then deleting it before posting it, if you need to get it out of your system); and most importantly, STOP judging everybody’s religious faith and commitment — that is Allah’s right alone.
Salaam Alaikum,
PM
Please Take Your Gift
haha familiar was once at a book fair, well not those good ones, just the usual we’ll throw watever we have in our storeroom here, so you get 3rd medical text books thrown next to books like da vinci decoded and trashy romance novels. Anyway point is I passed one of the stalls and I hear someone called “Ya akhti” (sister) so i turn and someone gives me this mini-book, i even thank him but then i walk a bit and look at the title of the book and it was called “Ureedu an atoob” (roughly : i want to be forgiven), couldn’t stop laughing, in fact I’ve kept the book on the top of my bookshelf.. great comic material i should get it framed.
Though its pretty uncomfortable having people there judging ure level of piety without even knowing you.
Dilnareen
Re: Please Take Your Gift
[quote]At least Islamic missionaries aren’t cheap.[/quote]
Many Islamic missionary orgs get governmental support, and thus can afford to ship their materials in nice boxes. Usually the Christian orgs are self-funded and usually do minis.
Even if this wasn’t true, the Bible is a quite bit larger than the Koran. If you’re gonna give away miniatures, it’s far easier to convince someone to take a half-inch-thick New Testament than a two inch thick Bible. 😀
Re(5): Please Take Your Gift
Mahmood I’d say your my hero but I doubt you’d look good in tights so heres the best I could come up with.
billT
Re(6): Please Take Your Gift
hahheahhahehehahahhehha! very creative 😀
Please Take Your Gift
The only person that could not figure out what was going on at this booth is someone who is blind or illiterate.
Re(6): Please Take Your Gift
It is now, isn’t it?
Steve
Please Take Your Gift
Mahmood, I think that this issue has been dragged out too much! The world is full of people who wanna cash in on the opportunity to be heard during events like the F1. Especially religious fanatics, the good thing is they used the race to spread their word peacfully to the world rather than driving a truck bomb through the grandstand and claiming that good sent them the C4 with a message saying “Kill all non-TWITBTHIDs”
Christians have been doing this for a long time http://www.go2mro.com/index.html in the USA, the Discover Islam guys are just starting to adopt their tactics. Amen to that! Their previous stunt was when they invited a “former” KKK Grand Wizard to give a talk http://www.adl.org/PresRele/Extremism_72/4192_72.htm in Bahrain.
How ignorant can you be? When someone like David Duke gets invited by these Morons, I’m sure deep down inside he’s thinking to himself “Maybe I should go over to there and act like their friend, get rid of the Jews and then burn them Sand Niggers at the stake along with a couple of lynchings to remind me of the good old days”
Dude, I support you 100% on the fact that it was inappropriate to give out the Holy Quran or any other Holy Book for that matter! and have it thrown in the trash.
Peace…
P.S. : Malik seems like the kind of guy who just does not know when to quit, I really dread having someone like him on a flight from NY to London in the seat next to me… I would rather set myself on fire like the guy in the movie Airplane.
Re(6): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]this is the end of the road for us. I am sure that quite a number of regulars here will be breathing a sigh of relief.[/quote]
As one who has had rather long term discussions/argument with Malik, I am personally sad to see him go – but this is Mahmood’s space, and it is ultimately his feelings on the matter that count 😀
Re(6): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]I object to you being so hard on Malik. That’s MY job, dammit! If you’re going to beat up on poor little Malik, what’s left for ME to do? I’m out of a job, Mahmood. That’s where I am: Unemployment City. [/quote]
What am I, chopped liver? 😛
Re(2): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]LOL! Islam has nothing that can compare to the Catholic Church! [/quote]
True. Islam isn’t monolithic, and has no Pope. A point which you constantly remind us.
Oh.. unless you meant in terms of cash. To which I reply:
Saudi funded mosques, some right across the street from each other.
Last I checked, the Saud family has more money than God, so they pay a lot of support to him.
Please Take Your Gift
Surely having a “benni oui oui” cheerleading crowd is much easier than a determined guest with opposite views…
Don’t talk about dialogue, freedom and open space mahmood if you start “expelling” anyone who disagree with you.
what about next year’s F1?
Any idea how things will go next year?
What does bother me is the recent proposal for the “Amr bel ma’roof” committe (someone please translate that!! am I right to say a “religious righteousness” committee?)
Well, anyways, I doubt it will actually get the go ahead, the last thing we need in this path towards “democracy” is a committee like this!! Aside from all the chaos they’ll cause to daily life, what would be their jurisdiction?
Makes me wonder, would they be allowed at the F1? Surely that would offend a lot of people, in terms of personal freedom, and would surely scare away any potential investors!!!
Feedback anyone?
It’s hard to judge the seriousness of the situation when you’re reading a newspaper, I yet have to learn to read between the lines!!
Re(1): Please Take Your Gift
The issue here, Mahmood, is your double standards. You have one poster whom you expell, Malik. You have another poster, Steve, who is just as abrasive and certainly more bigoted and hateful, yet you keep him. It seems to be a clear double standard although I dont understand why one would bother you more than the other. Steve’s prejudices and hatred target Arabs and especially Muslims and Islam, yet that doesnt seem to bother you that much. Why is that? Is it because even though he targets groups you are a part of, either Islam or Arabs, he doesnt target you? So it is okay to target groups you are a part of just not yourself? Or is it because this Steve knew when to properly abase himself and what bodypart to kiss and at what time, where as Malik either didnt know, or refused to do so?
I have no issue with what you have done to this Malik, I have the issue with the fact that you have not equally applied this premise with people as just as abrasive.
Re(6): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]Still, I’m happy to hear that I am in your prayers, as long as those prayers don’t include any high explosives in the current Muslim fashion. [/quote]
This is what I am talking about Mahmood. I have been reading this blog off and on for over a year now and these types of comments from Steve are usual, yet little if nothing is said to him. When it is he tends to kiss rump and move on. This person is targeting you as surely as Malik was, yet you ignore him. Is that not clear to you? Is it not time, in the interest of fairness, to “close the light” on him as well?
The issue, as I have stated before, is not your actions with the other poster, it is your inability to do it to others who exhibit just as offensive behavior.
Re(2): Please Take Your Gift
That’s a fair comment. However allow me to explain my position; In sales we have a saying: Don’t waste your time on the “noes” or “yeses”, concentrate instead on the “maybes”. Malik to me is a most definite “no” he has been tainted quite clearly with the Wahabi way of thinking. Steve to me is a maybe. He has changed his position and outlook on Arabs and Muslims since he first came here, and there is a good chance that he will (if he hasn’t arrived there already) come to see us as human beings just like everybody else and that the “bad” in our societies is generally not the ruled.
Steve also has not insulted me nor labeled me a kafir. Malik most definitely did. And that too is something that I cannot abide. He has a problem with me and therefore does exactly what the extremist Muslims are doing when they lose an argument or even can’t be bothered to debate: lable your opponent a kafir, unbeliever, etc and that generally would shut him up. It doesn’t me.
Re(7): Please Take Your Gift
I’m sorry, I don’t see what the issue is here. Neither do I read anywhere in that comment Steve calling me an unbeliever nor threaten me with hellfire.
Re(2): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]As for my knowledge of Islam and Muslims, I have received quite a profound education as to what Muslims and Islam are all about by watching jumbo jets crash into the World Trade Center on Sep 11, Al Qaeda snuff videos, Bali bombing news clips, events in Beslan, and video from the security cameras at the Madrid train station. [/quote]
This thread itself carries a dozen or more such posts with the above hatred, without a single line of address from anyone on this board. It would seem clear that arguing against American policy is haram, but slandering a whole religion, one you you happen to be a part of, is halaal.
By all means, give Malik the boot, but apply the same standards to this Steve.
Re(3): Please Take Your Gift
Care to take up Malik’s position? Register and let’s talk. Or is this indeed Malik trying a quick one?
Re(8): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]I’m sorry, I don’t see what the issue is here. Neither do I read anywhere in that comment Steve calling me an unbeliever nor threaten me with hellfire. [/quote]
So it is just fine that Steve insults all Muslims on this board, including yourself, as you are Muslim yes? I guess the person must just attack you, your person, instead of your religion and that of others here yes?
So the issue is not the insulting and sectarian behavior, that is fine. It is even fine when these comments are directed at your religion. The issue is a direct attack at you? Odd, I would find the dozen or so direct attacks against your religion here to be a direct attack against yourself. Steve is clearly over the line numberous times on this thread alone, yet that is okay.
Like I have said before, I have no issue with what you did to this Malik, but apply the same rules to Steve, unless those rules are “it is okay to be as rude as insulting to anyone and any group of people as you want, you can even attack the religion of the blog owner, just dont attack the blog owner directly”. So basically he can be as offensive as he wants, as long as Mahmood receives a pass? But you dont Mahmood. You are a Muslim and it is clear, as this thread shows, that he has complete contempt for you as well. He just hasnt the bollox that Malik had to say so.
Re(2): Please Take Your Gift
I would add one thing: Malik’s flooding the board with an argument on every single topic borders on spamming. But the main issue is to me that this is Mahmood’s Den — NOT Malik’s Masjid Minbar — and thus he (Mahmood) has a right to eject people that repeatedly offend him after much patience, humor and gentle warnings.
On another note, having Malik on board actually made Steve look better to a lot of us 😀 LOL!
Salaam,
PM
Re(3): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]That’s a fair comment. However allow me to explain my position; In sales we have a saying: Don’t waste your time on the “noes” or “yeses”, concentrate instead on the “maybes”. Malik to me is a most definite “no” he has been tainted quite clearly with the Wahabi way of thinking.[/quote]
I do not think this is the case at all. I have read this board for sometime now and have I posted, I think, just once, but this whole incident pulled me out the hole to which I will certain go back to soon. Malik took issue, alone, with the racist and sectarian rantings of this Steve, and to a lessor extent, Ethan. It seems, to me, that he was rather moderate in his views, but was consistantly backed into a corner by two posters who would broker no compromise to their hard-line anti-Islamic views. None of the other Muslims here came to the defense of Mali, which is fine, nor did they come to a defense of their religion after dozens of clearly hateful things had been said about it.
[quote]Steve to me is a maybe. He has changed his position and outlook on Arabs and Muslims since he first came here, and there is a good chance that he will (if he hasn’t arrived there already) come to see us as human beings just like everybody else and that the “bad” in our societies is generally not the ruled. [/quote]
Yes, that is clear by the other posts that I Have highlighted on this thread. He has stated numerous bigoted on prejudiced things on this thread alone. All without a single comment from anyone, Muslim or non Muslim alike. You have all seemed to alighted on this Malik with a definate pack/herd mentality. I cannot say that I have read all of Malik’s or Steve’s posts, but I can say that on the posts I have read Malik has never been as openly insulting or demeaning as Steve has, yet he did seem to be a constant target for you and others.
It would seem it is certainly okay to be rude and demeaning it. It just all depends on what your target it. Steve is rude and demeaning to Islam and Arabs, and despite what you say, this thread shows he hasnt changed at all. But, on the other hand, if you are critical of the West, and particularly America, then a different set of rules then comes into play. You cannot claim to be far and free Mahmood as long as you keep two seperate rules of conduct.
Do yourself a favour Mahmood. Go through the posts of the last two weeks or so again. See if, aside from the posts from Malik on this thread the other day, that he says anything as directly or indirectly insulting as this Steve. As an impartial observer will think you will not.
[quote]Steve also has not insulted me nor labeled me a kafir. Malik most definitely did. And that too is something that I cannot abide. He has a problem with me and therefore does exactly what the extremist Muslims are doing when they lose an argument or even can’t be bothered to debate: lable your opponent a kafir, unbeliever, etc and that generally would shut him up. It doesn’t me.[/quote]
Why would Steve? Why would he call you a kafir if he can, instead, just label your whole religion as bloodthirsty and monsterous? I fail to see how labelling your whole religion as murderers and terrorists wouldnt bother you, but calling you a kafir would? What is the difference? Either way it is a personal attack on youself. Calling you a kafir means nothing when he just belittles and insults our religion on a daily basis. As to Malik, he indeed went too far. But to a certain extent I see his issue. You attacked him on several occasions, yet felt free to leave Steve alone. Steve, most certainly has insulted you, and not just you, your whole people, your whole family history. When Steve talks about Islam and Muslims do you somehow think you get a “get out of jail free card” because he happens to like you based on what he has seen on you on this blog? I thknk Steve views you as his token Muslim. Malik indeed insulted you, but was more open with his insult than Steve is. Steve insults you everyday, yet he does not have the minerals to say it to your face. How do you not see this? Kind of like saying “hate all wogs, they are murderous and bloodthirsty, not to mention lazy, but YOU are okay.” That isnt an insult? That is what Steve has been dishing out here for sometime, without comment.
Mr/Ms Anonymous
Maybe you haven’t been around long enough to know that we Muslims on this forum don’t take Steve’s comments personally. That is in part because he does recognize us as individuals and in part because comments like this last one (about explosives) are not serious. He does have a wicked sense of humor and irony, though…. maybe that has alluded you.
Steve is at arm-chair war with Islamic Extremists, as are most Muslims I know. Rather than excusing the actions of those folks, some of us actually are speaking out against them before they drag our religion into the hellfirre.
Steve does sometimes generalize and has some misconceptions about Arabs and Muslims. Many of us enjoy having the chance to straighten these issues out and discuss them without getting ugly or too personal in the attacks. I daresay Steve has learned a lot in his time here, as have I. I hope you will find your time here equally informative.
Salaam Alaikum,
PM
Re(3): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]I would add one thing: Malik’s flooding the board with an argument on every single topic borders on spamming. But the main issue is to me that this is Mahmood’s Den — NOT Malik’s Masjid Minbar — and thus he (Mahmood) has a right to eject people that repeatedly offend him after much patience, humor and gentle warnings.
On another note, having Malik on board actually made Steve look better to a lot of us LOL! [/quote]
With this nonsense I will go back into the hole from which I came. I realise this is Mahmood’s Den, but the fact is Steve is not any least bit as insulting as Malik. Far from it, at least Malik just talked about Mahmood, Steve targets YOU and all of us other 1 billion Muslims on almost a daily basis without response from any of you.
I find your silence, and the silence of the other Muslims here, to be deafening. I could not bare the silence any longer. That is why I piped up and posted. It would seem, to no avail. I will no go back to watching Steves rants about Islam in quiet, because that is how his views on Muslims and Arabs are treated by you all here, with silence. I offer this tidbit. Having grown up in the gulf and have gone to school in the west I can tell you it is the Muslims who ignore people like Steve who infuriate the rest of us. By all means take issue with Islamic extremists, but take equal issue with the extremists like Steve from the west. I think it is the fascination with all things western that allows somepeople to let themselves to be treated like the “house wog.” Dont allow yourselves to fall into this trap.
Re: Mr/Ms Anonymous
[quote]Maybe you haven’t been around long enough to know that we Muslims on this forum don’t take Steve’s comments personally. That is in part because he does recognize us as individuals and in part because comments like this last one (about explosives) are not serious. He does have a wicked sense of humor and irony, though…. maybe that has alluded you. [/quote]
I am aware of his humour, I dont find humour targeted at one group of people, humorous. I think you take his rantings as humor when often they are not. Besides which, as I learned in a basic psych class, all humor tends to be based on fact. It is fine when he recognises you as individuals, he doesnt need to insult you one by one, he has covered it with his blanket insult of Islam and Muslims. No need to revist the insult one by one.
[quote]Steve does sometimes generalize and has some misconceptions about Arabs and Muslims. Many of us enjoy having the chance to straighten these issues out and discuss them without getting ugly or too personal in the attacks. I daresay Steve has learned a lot in his time here, as have I. I hope you will find your time here equally informative. [/quote]
Sometimes? I have been here a year and have seen him do nothing else. Steve does not seem to get any better, a quick review of this thread will certainly prove that to you. My time here, aside from reading, is at an end. I do not want to get into it with Steve, or it would seem with the rest of you. I do not want to suffer Maliks fate. I think he was treated, not unfairly, but certainly unequally. I am a Muslim and do not like the way somepeople here get a free pass to say anything they want about Islam, but talk about America and the west and all bets are all. As a Muslim I believe in the teaching where it says not to argue, but if you do, do it in a “better way.” I do not think this is possible on this board, hence I will not do so.
Masalama.
Re(4): Please Take Your Gift
No need to go back into your hole. You have some good points, but I think we just disagree on a few. I don’t know how long you have been reading this blog but we all have a history with Steve that goes back a ways. If you want to see responses to his ideas more fervently put forward go back and read the archives. We all have had many “goes” at Steve in the past, myself included.
As for my silence, perhaps you are unaware of my situation. I have had a major health problem and finally had surgery in January which kept my participation on this forum to a minimum. Al hamdulillah I am now fairly well recovered, back at work and returning to participating on forums. in other words, I have been unusually silent for the last 4 months — and my fiance would probably like that silence to continue so I will have more time for him 😉
BTW, having lived and taught at an American uni in the Gulf I can say that you needn’t worry about me or any of my students/friends accepting the “house wog” hogwash.
Salaam Alaikum,
PM
Re(4): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]Care to take up Malik’s position? Register and let’s talk. Or is this indeed Malik trying a quick one? [/quote]
I do not care to be treated like he was. Like I have said before, I will not post on here after this point. It would seem I am already being set up for the attack. You seem to be proving my very point for me. Already the insinuations start. Catch yourself on Mahmood.
I enjoy reading this blog, you have a lot of interesting things to say and point out. I do not like the way the interaction goes on here, hence I will not participate anymore than I have. Keep up the good work.
Re(5): Please Take Your Gift
quote] I have had a major health problem and finally had surgery in January which kept my participation on this forum to a minimum.[/quote]
Salamatik
Please Take Your Gift
With Steve you can occasionally get your point of view across, with Malik you couldnt. Id welcome Malik back if he could keep on topic or close to topic. Agree with him or not he was a counter balance to Steve’s views. As fas as insulting your host goes you dont do that in any society and expect things to be fine.
billT
Re: Please Take Your Gift
The difference though is that freedom cease to exist once you encroach on others’ doesn’t it? And does freedom of speach also give you the absolute right to be offensive and derogatory to any view you are faced with? Does it also give you the right to insult your host?
Those are hardly true definition of dialogue and freedoms of speach. They apply more to the rule of the jungle and the one who’s right must be the one who shouts loudest.
To maintain the freedom of this forum, I have to take actions which will ensure its success and longevity, some, like this one, are bound to be unpopular, however I stand by my decision which I believe is correct.
Re(5): Please Take Your Gift
You’ve been lurking here a whole year yet you never bothered to enter any comment to defend Islam, which is a religion we BOTH share, but you point the finger of accusation at me because you feel it was MY sole responsibility to defend it on your behalf? Or was that Malik’s job?
No, thank you very much. You should have stepped up to the plate and answered any post you had umbrage with yourself rather than abrogate that responsibility, you could have enriched the discussion. Don’t come blaming me because I chose, on my site, to throw out an abusive guest.
Whether you return to this site or not does not concern me in the slightest. That is completely up to you. Remember however that this is my personal site, I do not make money out of it even though it receives 1.6 million hits a month, and its declared intention, as is mine, is to bring cultures and thoughts closer together rather than provide space for spam, derogatory comments, flames, personal attacks and neverending fights… all of which Malik more than anyone else has habitually indulged in. For God’s sake I intentionally created the Forums especially for him and his diatribe and poison, wasn’t that enough?
Obviously not.
I’m not losing sleep over this though. I firmly stand by my decision.
Re: Please Take Your Gift
[quote]As fas as insulting your host goes you dont do that in any society and expect things to be fine. [/quote]
I’m absolutely sure that Steve and I have said some non-kosher things. (Pun intended!) However, Malik’s use of takfir was tantamount to a threat of bodily harm. It’s one thing to disagree with your host, or find fault with his beliefs. Threatening your host with a death sentence .. that’s a [b][i]bit[/i][/b] different.
I love Mahmood, and all of the other posters here. I may sometimes find fault with their religion(s)/belief(s)/idea(s)/politics(s), and am not afraid to challenge deeply held beliefs, but I do not have any lack of respect for any of them personally – even Malik, frustratingly obtuse as he was.
Re(1): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]The radical fundamentalist Muslims represent Islam because the moderates let them. They do not oppose them but more often support them directly, indirectly, or passively.[/quote]
One reason is fear: The extremists have weapons and the will to use them, even against other Muslims! Mohammed killed apostates – and thus the traditional penalty for apostasy is death. Extremists will use this edict-power to cow dissent.
Another reason is Arab culture. I believe Mahmood once remarked that an Arab will believe anything if it is framed in a religious argument.
Yet another reason is at least a few hundred years worth of abuse. Like a well-beaten wife who has been confined to her house for the crime of lewdness (speaking out against her oppressors!) the populace of the Middle East has been oppressed by tribalism and its descendent, dictators-for-life for so long that any hope of ‘free minds’ has been quashed. Only very recently has this ‘Iron Burkha’ been lifted, ever so slightly! We can see the ankles of a populace that yearns to be able to breathe. (Better propose marriage! Or is that just an old Charleston tradition?)
Combine these factors. Extremists who [i]de facto[/i] own the argument through threats. Inability for other Muslims to effectively make an argument against it, or are unwilling to, tribalism which promotes strongman dictators, who further oppress the populace. It’s a powderkeg of the Arabs own making. The West hasn’t helped, but truthfully the West has certainly treated other places much worse far longer than the Middle East.
Please Take Your Gift
It seems to me that any religion should be fair game for criticism – even severe criticism. Otherwise, how can we ever improve? And maybe I’m wrong about Steve and he’ll correct me – but it seems to me that he’s saying that the [u]dominant[/u] face Muslims are turning to the West is violent and hateful – he’s not saying this is the only type of or kind of Islam there is. I think I’m inclined to be more positive toward Islam than Steve is, but I was deeply shocked on September 11 and I continue to be deeply shocked every time Muslims kill other people in the name of Islam. Feeling that shock is not a sign of bigotry.
Rebecca
Please Take Your Gift
And another thing – isn’t it possible ever to have a place or space that’s free of religious proselytizing? Where you don’t have to feel that there are people around worrying more about your eternal soul than you are? I guess the Bahraini government shouldn’t have anything to do with banning such missionaries – but that doesn’t mean they should be there. I don’t particularly like it when I’m at some secular event (in the U.S.) and Christian missionaries show up.
Rebecca
Re(2): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]Anonymous: The issue here, Mahmood, is your double standards. You have one poster whom you expell, Malik. You have another poster, Steve, who is just as abrasive and certainly more bigoted and hateful, yet you keep him. It seems to be a clear double standard although I dont understand why one would bother you more than the other. Steve’s prejudices and hatred target Arabs and especially Muslims and Islam, yet that doesnt seem to bother you that much. Why is that? Is it because even though he targets groups you are a part of, either Islam or Arabs, he doesnt target you? So it is okay to target groups you are a part of just not yourself? Or is it because this Steve knew when to properly abase himself and what bodypart to kiss and at what time, where as Malik either didnt know, or refused to do so? I have no issue with what you have done to this Malik, I have the issue with the fact that you have not equally applied this premise with people as just as abrasive.[/quote]
Anonymous, I disagree with you that I am bigoted toward Islam though I most certainly do not respect it and find much fault with it. My negative feelings toward Islam and Muslims began on Sep 11 and have been fueled by the nearly continuous revelations of murderous plots lead by Islamic clergy, the support of the same by Muslim governments, and the nearly bottomless hatred of Muslims for virtually everyone else. My views are based on Muslim behavior, not their doctrine. If Muslims ceased their campaign of mass murder and made good on the evil they’ve done, my complaints would cease.
While I may be abrasive at times, I have not been so abrasive that I have cut your throat, smashed a jumbo jet into you, set you on fire, forced you to jump off a hundred story building, nor blown you to bloody chunks with a truck bomb. Now that would be abrasive.
What is so exasperating to me is that Muslim Arabs take my criticism as expressions of racism and bigotry rather than expressions of contempt for Muslim Arab behavior. It’s as if Sep 11 and all the other terror did not exist and I just picked Muslim Arabs out of a hat to hate. It’s this moral obtuseness that seems to say, “We keep bombing and bombing the infidels and they STILL criticize us.” It’s all about the terror. If Buddhists had dropped a jumbo jet on my America, I would be on a Buddhist web site giving the Buddhists hell.
I like Mahmood and his website because Mahmood is a decent guy who probably does a fair amount of work to keep this site running. I understand Mahmood. He’s just like people I work with in America and have worked with in other countries. He’s completely understandable. I don’t agree with him on many issues but then I have a lot of friends with whom I disagree. However, he is almost always respectful except on those rare days when he just gets ticked off.
Now I’m not sure I agree with Mahmood kicking Malik off. Malik did bring a certain valuable point of view to this forum, but he brought it in a dumptruck rather than with a garden trowel. I wish Malik had picked his positions more carefully and argued them more closely. He diluted himself with wall to wall Malik. And Malik was occassionally correct. Not very often, but it did happen. I don’t mind wading through a hundred goofy Malikian arguments if I can mine one golden nugget of knowledge. So I’m split on Malik’s departure.
Steve
Re: Please Take Your Gift
Since everyone is invoking my name, let me clarify:
The radical fundamentalist Muslims represent Islam because the moderates let them. They do not oppose them but more often support them directly, indirectly, or passively. I recognize that there are nice Muslims walking all around me who are not thinking about anything more violent than what they’ll have for lunch but when a continuous stream of venom is spit from the Middle East about making American streets run with blood, why would I respect that?
Steve
[Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on April 12, 2005 11:50 PM]
Re(3): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]Mahmood: Steve to me is a maybe. He has changed his position and outlook on Arabs and Muslims since he first came here, and there is a good chance that he will (if he hasn’t arrived there already) come to see us as human beings just like everybody else and that the “bad” in our societies is generally not the ruled. [/quote]
Mahmood, Mahmood, Mahmood,
Of course I see you as human beings. Please. Don’t go Malikian on me.
Sheesh,
Steve
Re(3): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]PM: On another note, having Malik on board actually made Steve look better to a lot of us LOL![/quote]
You’re saying that with love, right, PM?
Steve
Re(4): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]Anonymous: I will no go back to watching Steves rants about Islam in quiet, because that is how his views on Muslims and Arabs are treated by you all here, with silence. [/quote]
I wish you wouldn’t be silent but speak up and say your piece more. Register yourself on this site so we know with whom we are all speaking. It makes for a richer dialogue if we have an identity to respond to rather than an Anonymous identity. You can expect we will disagree, perhaps disagree strongly, but then we may agree on some things. Then again, you may just come to understand how I came to view Islam with contempt.
Last night on the History Channel, they had a recreation of the skyjacking of Flight 11. It was based on what few facts have been discovered from the doomed jet. They played some of the actual tapes of the flight attendants calling from the jet, trying to get the information about the attack out and get help. While they had actors reenact the scenes, they also showed the photos of the flight attendants and pilots. They had interviews with their husbands and wives. It just made me furious all over again to see these innocent people slaughtered for nothing, for a bloodthirsty religion that hates everyone and everything.
One of the stories featured was that of Patty Massari, who had found out the morning of Sep 11 that she was pregnant. It would be her first baby. She was on the phone telling her husband when the wing of American Airlines Flight 11 cut through her office on the 98th floor of the World Trade Center, smashing her to death in mid-sentence. Here is a link so you can look at her face:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/06/national/portraits/POG-06MASSARI.html?ex=1113364800&en=0b132e35edd66115&ei=5070
Patty Massari should be home right now playing with her baby. I imagine about now that baby would be walking and talking. Instead of that happy scene, they are both dead at the hands of Muslim savages, their deaths celebrated throughout the Muslim world. Who knows if her husband recovered any of her remains. Most families did not.
When I read that this year, like last year, Muslims have written “Death To America” on the pillars at Mina, that tells me that Muslims approve of this slaughter and intend to continue it. They have made this hate a centerpiece of their religion. They feel no shame about such evil but seek to repeat it. That’s why I don’t respect Islam.
America is my Kaaba. It is a sacred thing to me. It is intolerable to have barbarian invaders butcher Americans in America. Whatever system of belief drives such savages to do evil in my America, I will oppose without relent.
Steve
Re(6): Please Take Your Gift
Let’s hope this post of yours is proof of your recovery and you’re on your feet again. We need more posters. Get well.
Steve
Re(4): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]Anonymous: I thknk Steve views you as his token Muslim. Malik indeed insulted you, but was more open with his insult than Steve is. Steve insults you everyday, yet he does not have the minerals to say it to your face. How do you not see this? Kind of like saying “hate all wogs, they are murderous and bloodthirsty, not to mention lazy, but YOU are okay.” That isnt an insult? That is what Steve has been dishing out here for sometime, without comment. [/quote]
That’s pure nonsense. May I note that it is YOU who is dishing out the racist epithets here, not me. I suspect that you do so because that would be much easier to defend against than what I actually say, which is that Islam is murderously intolerant. The evidence for this is overwhelming, which is why you would rather shift away from the facts to wallow in bogus accusations of racism and bigotry. It is exactly this refusal to accept reality that has allowed your religion to descend into such bloody depravity. The day you climb out of your denial and take action to fix the problem is the day that your religion will begin winning respect.
Steve
Re(1): Mr/Ms Anonymous
[quote]Anonymous: I am aware of his humour, I dont find humour targeted at one group of people, humorous.[/quote]
So there’s the difference between us. You don’t find humour targeted at Muslims very humorous. I don’t find jumbo jets targeted at America very humorous.
[quote]Anonymous: I think you take his rantings as humor when often they are not. Besides which, as I learned in a basic psych class, all humor tends to be based on fact. [/quote]
We agree on that. Perhaps the best way for you to undermine me making Islam the butt of my humour is to change those facts, to stop the Islamic jihad against the world, to stop the religious terror, to stop killing people drinking coffee in their office in New York or flying to Disneyworld with their kids or dancing the night away in Bali or reporting on a story in Pakistan. Stop that and you will starve me of all my material to ridicule Islam.
Until then, you are being unrealistic to demand me to respect an Islam that seeks my death and the destruction of my America. Did you think when the Muslim world slammed jumbo jets into my America that we would send you a thank you note? When you kill Americans to promote your religion, expect criticism from Americans. Lots of it.
[quote]I am a Muslim and do not like the way somepeople here get a free pass to say anything they want about Islam, but talk about America and the west and all bets are all.[/quote]
There has been plenty of criticism of America on this board. I welcome the chance to confront it, especially since much of it is based on bad information or disinformation. You should welcome the chance to defend your faith, culture, and country. Unless it’s indefensible.
Steve
Re(3): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]This thread itself carries a dozen or more such posts with the above hatred, without a single line of address from anyone on this board. It would seem clear that arguing against American policy is haram, but slandering a whole religion, one you you happen to be a part of, is halaal. [/quote]
My dictionary says slander is a false statement. Which one of these Islamic terrorist atrocities I cite is false? Which one did not happen?
If you do not want me to castigate Muslims for terrorist atrocities, don’t do them. Until the Muslim world ceases to make war on every other religion and culture in the world, when Muslims stop making snuff videos of themselves cutting off infidel heads and gleefully shouting God is great, expect intense criticism of a religion that allows such evil.
And really, is it more hateful to criticize such evil or to be perpetrating it? Why do you want to sweep it under the rug?
Steve
Re(3): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]Steve also has not insulted me nor labeled me a kafir. Malik most definitely did. And that too is something that I cannot abide.[/quote]
Ana mani fahim le maza inta za3lan 3la shan alnas taqool 3anak kafir. Inta atkalamt katheer 3ala nafsak huna wa mush inta ili titbaha bi-anak tashrab alcahool? Wa mush inta ili saraht aljamee3 bikuli waqaha bi-anak takol laham alkhanzeer? Asmahli ya bani adam, iza anta 3ndak mushkilah min alnas taqool inak kafir fa inta almafroodh ma titkalam bi-kuli waqaha wa kibriyaa inak taf3al hakatha al-ashiah ili hiya dhidh al-Islam. Hathihi al-ashiah, kal shurb wa akl alkhanzeer, fa hiya absat ashiah Allah Subhanahu Wa ta3ala qal fe ketabuh Almubeen inaha haram wa aiy insan yaqool 3ala nafsihi anahu Muslim, fal wajib an yumtani3 minha. Yemkin anta alan taqool 3ani ana Muslim muta3qid aw shadeed, fahatha la yehimuni wa ana ba3eed jedan 3an hatha altas3eeb. Lakin alwahid yetkalam alhaq, la akthar wala aqal. Lil asaf alshadeed, inta fe mumarasatak bi-anak takoon mutawade3 wa laisa muta3qid bi-ism al-Islam, tarakt aham nuqat fe deenak.
Ana 3arif inak hatshilani min safhatak fe al web site. Fahatha la yehimuni. Lakin, li-wagh Allah aqool lak bi-anak tifakir katheer 3ala alashiaa ili inta atkalamt 3aliyha. Iza kan kalam alnas bi-yiza3lak fe qaulahum bi-anak kafir, fa ma3natooh inta hasis wa 3arif bi-anuh af3alak galatt wa hasis bi-alnadam. Fa almafroodh ma tiz3al min alnas ili bi-yewaghook bi-nafs alkalam ili inta bi-nafsak bi-waqaha titkalam bih wa tif3al bih, ila iza inta fe3lan shayef inak bitifa3al galatt wa dameerak sahi?? Alsitrah ya bani adam muhimah jedan. Astur nafsak ahsalak wa ina Allah yehdik lil serat almostaqeem. Lakin tareeqatak munafik kabeer fe nafsak wa fe deenak. Wa Al-salam.
Re(4): Please Take Your Gift
This is an English version of the above.
I don’t see what your issue is with someone calling you a kafir. You have said the very same thing about yourself here. Havent you bragged about drinking? Havent you told us about the superior taste of pork bacon? If you had an issue with being called a kafir you would not have advertised so loudly the things you do that violate the very basics of Islam. These are not things that moderates have up for debate, these are the very basics of the religion. I know you will now call me an extremist, you must to make yourself feel better. I am far from an extremist. I fled the gulf to get away from extremists in my family and in society. I have paid more in my life because of the extremists than you can imagine, yet I have not left my faith. I live in the west, yet I dont drink, I dont eat pork, I dont do haraam. You have missed the idea that you can be free and Muslim. You do not need to drop your religion to prove you are modern. You, in your rush to be as “western� and “modern� as you can be, have dropped some very important parts of your religion. If you are upset about being called a kafir, stop doing the things that kafirs do. It you want to do the things that kafirs do, and even brag about it, stop getting upset when you are called a kafir.
I know that you will probably now ban me from your site. That is fine. You need to reassess your ideas. If being called a kafir bothers you so much then it would seem to me that at least YOU know you are doing something wrong. But why ban people for pointing out the very things you yourself choose to brag about?
Re(5): Please Take Your Gift
Sister,
I have to step in here about all the judgment that is being tossed about. You seem — like Malik — to have judged Mahmood to be a Kafir. It was my learning when I became a Muslim that we ARE NOT to label others as disbelievers, and in fact that this is a MOST DANGEROUS practice. If someone actually chooses to call him/herself a disbeliever, that is their right. I have never known Mahmood to call himself that, and most definitely know him not to be a disbeliever. You see, Sister, I have met Mahmood and we have talked about Allah. He most definitely is a Muslim, but even if he were not — is it your place, or Malik’s place or Mr/Ms Anonymous’ place to judge him? I think not. That judgment belongs to Allah and please leave it for Him, the Almighty.
As for Mahmood “bragging” about haram things, I think you do not understand his point. He refuses to hide or be a hypocrite about the choices he makes in his life. He also has a sense of humor and irony about the hypocrisy we see all around us in the Muslim world. he doesn’t set himself up to telling others how to live their lives and I suggest we don’t treat him in that manner. In fact, I have found that the best way to bring about positive change in negative behavior of others is by providing a good example in our own lives.
Al hamdulillah you have avoided doing haraam in your life. I have not been so perfect but I keep striving.
Salaam Alaikum,
PM
Re(6): Please Take Your Gift
In the end it is all about the fight against the extremists. I judge the Salafee to be just as much as an extremist as Mahmood, just on opposite ends of the pole. Extremist liberal who brags about his failure to even try to live up to his religion. Sitrah, are you aware of the term? Even if we cannot live perfect lives, I certainly dont, do not then brag about it. Keep your sins to yourself.
Again, what is needed here is a true middle ground. We have the Salafee on one end and liberals on the other end. Both are wrong. That is what is missing is someone in the middle. Mahmood is not even close to the middle. I fled the extremism in the gulf. Now, as a Muslim who tries to live her life in the proper and moderate way, I face extremism on both ends. Those who would force their ideas about my faith down my throat, and those who in their quest to be seen as “modern” and “liberal” leave their religion behind. What is the use in calling oneself Muslim if you do not do the things that Muslims do? If you do not pray….if you do not give zakat, if you eat prok, drink. If you do these things, in what meaningful way are you Muslim?
Can you agree with me that saying “I am Muslim” does not make you a Muslim? If this is the case, what makes someone Muslim? Islam is actions, submission to God. If you do not submit to God by following His rules, in what way are you Muslim? I do not believe for one second that there is such a thing as a “cultural Muslim.” I have seen this rubbish here in the west. “Cultural Catholic,” there is no such thing no matter how hard you might claim. Someone is either a Catholic or they are not. Someone either submits(Islam/Muslim) to God’s laws or they dont. It is rather simple.
We are not talking here about fine points of Sharia. “Hanbali school says wudu is voided by blood, Hanafi says it is not.” We are talking about things that are agreed upon by all schools, by all sects, Sunni and Shia alike. We are talking about doing things you know are wrong, and above that, advertising it. Instead of bragging about the things you do, or have done wrong, why not try to stop them? He is made people are calling a kafir but he does the things that he knows he shouldnt do. The person he is wronging is himself and God. At the end of the day this means nothing to me, he is the one who has to pay for what he does. But I resent the fact that he feels free to judge other people and label them extremist yet gets mad when judgement is passed on him. Why, PM, did you fail to issue this lecture on the occassions Mahmood felt free to judge other people? I failed to see your lectures to him about judging people. Either judging people is wrong or it isnt. If it is wrong, why your failure to address this issue on his part?
I honestly think this is a waste of time. I have followed the debate here for sometime. Mahmood has a serious issue concerning anyone who takes their religion seriously, and I am sure this will include myself. I have never seen anything BUT a negative view of Islam put on this blog. When has Mahmood pointed out the finer things about his faith? On the other hand, reading this post one would think life here in the west is absolute Jannah. There is no other viewpoint on this board. I have seen Mahmood go nutters over any Islamic extremist that might post here, but gives wide leeway to western bigots and extremists. Then I would point out to Mahmood what has been pointed out to Muslims living here in the west numerous times. If the west is so great, why doesnt he move there? If this is a valid argument to be made against Muslims in the west it is just as certainly valid made by those Muslims who have nothing but praise for the west.
Middle of the road, that is what is needed, and what isnt here. Mahmood needs to apply his own rules to himself. If he doesnt want to be judged, I suggest he doesnt judge others. You can hardly complain about judging when you do it yourself. I am sure my post here is going to have him on the piss, but that will just show how thin skinned and will show his double standards. If you can insult and judge, expect to be insulted and judged back. “Al 3ain bil-3ain wa alsin bil-sin”
I am not going to get dragged into this topic, it is useless. It will just go round and round and everyone will end up with the same viewpoint that they had when we started. I will answer a few responses, in either Arabic or English, and that is it. That is, of course, if I dont get removed from this site before it reaches that point. For a person who advocates freedom of speech, it is clear it does not extend to himself or those things he holds dear.
Re(7): Please Take Your Gift
I would consider Mahmood center of the road. He answers questions honestly and admits when he is wrong. He doesn’t try to convert neither does he belittle others faith. From reading his posts he tends to judge himself harsher than he does others.
What I dont understand is your use of the word submit. He seems perfectly willing to submit himself to gods judgment.
billT
Re(8): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]Khadija: “Cultural Catholic,” there is no such thing no matter how hard you might claim. Someone is either a Catholic or they are not. Someone either submits(Islam/Muslim) to God’s laws or they dont. It is rather simple. [/quote]
I disagree, Khadija. I grew up Catholic, going to parochial school and taught by nuns. It didn’t take. I’m an atheist. Yet I believe in Catholic values, not because I think I’ll go to hell if I sin but rather because it makes my life better and a better society if I act honorably. I feel perfectably comfortable going to church (though it’s boring) and hanging out with priests. You can feel comfortable in Catholic culture and admire it without accepting the foundation of it.
I’d also be willing to bet twenty bucks that you’ll never be kicked off this board. You’re the very model of what we all want in this forum: a respectful poster delivering a perspective that adds to the dialogue.
The one thing I disagree with you about is your willful misinterpretation that Malik was kicked off this forum because he was too pro-Muslim and that pious Muslims are unwelcome and certain to follow him out. Malik was choking the conversation, degrading the exchange of ideas to name-calling. We could use him here if we could get him in smaller, focused doses.
Steve
Re(5): Please Take Your Gift
Khadija, thank you for registering and for taking the time to comment. Both of which are appreciated.
I understand your point of view which you are more than welcome to. However I disagree with you on the application of Islam. To me and to Islam as well for that matter, Islam is good deeds rather than just rote actions. That’s all I have to say on the matter and I don’t want to turn this or any other thread into a lynching mob or flying acusations. Both of which will do nothing but give people unnecessary headaches.
I won’t judge you either, so please extend me the same courtesy. Last time I checked, Allah is the only judge on the day of reckoning. So please go ahead and enjoy your life as you see fit, but leave others to do likewise.
Re(6): Please Take Your Gift
Thank you Lisa, that’s the problem with Muslims rather than Islam. Every Muslim it seems is so ready to judge other Muslims, rather than just leave everyone alone. Why is it that Muslims insist on this? Is it so that the accusor feels more pios and more deserving of going to Heaven because he has put down the other Muslims?
Even though that Allah tells us that He is the only judge and that each carries his OWN sins, we still find people revelling in accusing others as not being Muslim enough! And they take that as “advice” rather than “judgement.”
People, move on. I’m happy and secure within myself, so don’t bother throwing epithets at me. You’ll be wasting your time.
Please Take Your Gift
Malik,
I hate to have to say this publically, but there is one question you really need to ask yourself. If this site was ever provided with an “ignore” feature, so that regular visitors were able to type in your user name to make all of your posts vanish, how many of us do you reckon would do so? I’m afraid that for many of us, there would be one name only in that ignore lists, and it would be yours.
Meggie
Re(6): Please Take Your Gift
[quote]Tell me which is the greater haram, to drink or to LIE, which came down from God to Moses himself? [/quote]
Didn’t the rule against alcohol come down from God to Mohammed himself? While I am certainly sure that lying causes far greater trouble than drinking, both are equally haram if you use this logic. In fact, drinking seems to carry a greater punishment; liquor shops aren’t exactly welcomed over there (in the general sense) and those that run them are subject to rather violent penalties, such as the poor Christians in Iraq, or expatriates in Saudi!
On the other hand, lies (such as just about anything said about Jews) have been bandied about for centuries, and are even applauded in some quarters.
Re(5): Please Take Your Gift
I think your jab about Mahmood eating pork came from this post on a forum. I believe Mahmood when he says that he’s never had pork.
You may have issue with his consumption of alchohol, but that’s between him and his maker. Not only that, Mahmood will at least tell you that he imbibes alcohol, which is better than those that drink themselves into fits in private and with the straightest of faces denounce their fellow lushes. Tell me which is the greater haram, to drink or to LIE, which came down from God to Moses himself?
Mahmood’s site is about discussing everything in society in a frank, honest and respectful manner. It may seem to you like he is pandering to the west, but what he is doing is very much within the spirit of the Bahraini peoples, which is to call it like we see it. When Mahmood sees inconsistencies in Islamic and Arab societies, he’s well within his rights to call it out.
Whatever disagreements we may have about his handling of comment trolls, I defer to his judgment as it is his site. Many of you may turn away in disgust, but I’ll keep reading for as long as there is open honest dialog happening here. Malik took that away, and for THAT he had to go. When others cross that line, they will be gone as well. (And I fully realize that it could very well apply to me, if I make such foolhardy choices.)
Bring Back Malik
Mahmood ..
No need to kick Malik off. Let him come and rant. We should just make a point of ignoring him when he plays the same record over and over again. The battle within Islam whether it be between extremists of the salafi type, or the converted type, needs to be played out.
And, for the record, it is for noone but God to judge whether or not Mahmood is a good moslem or a bad moslem. Pork eating and alochol drinking notwithstanding. If man was able to make that judgement – then we would all be perfect. And, we all know that only god is perfect.
And for the record, i do both. And – with all due respect to Khadija and Malik, I know that I am a better beleiver than some of the beareded short thobers because I dont hurt people, i take responsability for my actions, and I think of god in EVERYthing that i do .. and in everything that I say … in order to make sure that i am a moral person. That beats praying 5 times a day because I need the routine. When at work and someone says something stupid, I think about God and reexplain things. When at home and someone says something to hurt me, I think about God and have compassion and forgive. Live and let Live. Ands for god’s sake .. being a good moslem does not mean that we lose our sense of humor and perspective!!!!
Lighten up guys ..
Jasra Jedi
Re: Bring Back Malik
I don’t want to get involved in the debate about Malik or Steve or extremism or missionaries, or whatever. But jasra’s statement above reminded me of an Urdu couplet:
and another one:
[Modified by: Chan’ad (chanad) on April 13, 2005 05:19 PM]
Re: Bring Back Malik
[quote]And for the record, i do both. And – with all due respect to Khadija and Malik, I know that I am a better beleiver than some of the beareded short thobers because I dont hurt people, i take responsability for my actions, and I think of god in EVERYthing that i do .. and in everything that I say … in order to make sure that i am a moral person.[/quote]
I’m sure that the ‘short thobers’ would argue that by ordering the death of infidels or the conquering of their armies or what have you they they are being moral and upstanding.
It all comes down to a very simple question:
[b]What do you think God wants?[/b]
If you think of God as some lawgiving taskmaster, and you can read his law in his book and the books says to hate others because they don’t love your vision of God as much as you think they should.. why or how can you contradict God? If you interpret it differently as ‘hate the belief’ not the person, and another interprests it as ‘hate the person
Applicability
Steve,
Speaking as an American who has undergone the same emotions as you after the last few years of extremist terrorism, I urge you not to categorize all Muslims the same way you do the September 11 terrorists (it is arguably as to whether or not they were really Muslim, anyhow).
Basing your opinion of an entire group of people on the actions of a minority is simply logically unsound. Yes, there are Islamic terrorists. But, on a similar note, we have terrorists in America. Remember Timothy McVeigh? Boyd Lee Malvo? Under the same logic, you are a terrorist by common association. All Americans are.
It’s obvious that that implication is not only unfair; it is untrue.
The simple fact remains that over one billion people in the world are Muslims, and only a few thousand of them are involved in our “terror organizations.” Statistically speaking, that is a TINY percentage of the population.
Yes, some Muslims wrote “death to America.” Many Americans still believe “white” people are superior to “black” people — we’re still seeing KKK rallies throughout the country. Does that mean these people are in the right? Most importantly, does that make them representative of all their fellow citizens?
It doesn’t. The only way we can effectively handle the problems we have among cultures is to stop looking at people as members of a group and respect them as individuals. And, as this is my first post (with an account), I think Mahmood has done a fine job of just that.
Re(1): Bring Back Malik
[quote]Ethan: However I sincerely believe that God wants you to be a good person.[/quote]
Ethan, I agree this is what it is all about, not rituals, not fixation on the minute aspects of our lives, nor on using the correct formula to reach the divine. I hardly think a Supreme Being is going to care about what we wear, what we eat, or whether we’re in church every Sunday. I would also say a supremely enlightened being isn’t going to torture misguided souls for all of eternity.
Aliandra
Re: Applicability
Mike,
It is true that judging the entire Muslim world by the actions of the Sep 11 terrorists is not fair nor logically sound. However, judging them by their reaction to the Sep 11 attacks is a fair indication of their character. The majority of the Muslim world celebrated the Sep 11 attacks, which leads me to believe that they were popular among Muslims. There are plenty of positive Muslim reactions to the Sep 11 attacks and subsequent terrorist atrocities. Some were gleeful. Only in Iran did Muslims take to the streets and show support for America. In Palestine they danced in the streets and passed out candy. In Saudi Arabia, they sacrificed goats and camels and feasted. You might go back and read translations of the Muslim reaction in the MEMRI site and other media. It will be a shock.
It is true that we have home-grown terrorists like Timothy McVeigh and Lee Boyd Malvo and some others you have not mentioned. The difference between these American terrorists and the Muslim terrorists is that McVeigh and Malvo enjoyed no domestic support as Muslim terrorists do. We actively pursued them, arrested them, tried them, convicted them. In McVeigh’s case, we executed him. By contrast, Muslim terrorists enjoy active support from many in their home populations, passive support from the majority, political support from Islamist and other religious organizations, and often financial and logistical support from Muslim governments.
McVeigh and Malvo were operating on their own private agendas of hate developed by themselves. Muslim terrorists are indoctrinated in hatred for other religions and philosophies, for the entire non-Muslim world, the dar al harb, by a well-developed Wahhabi doctrine of jihad that is institutionalized. This hateful and belligerent Wahhabi doctrine is the covert foreign policy of Saudi Arabia which promotes religious war around the world. These are profound differences in the scope of American and Muslim terrorists.
In America, there is strong public condemnation of hate groups such as the KKK. In the Muslim world there is strong public support for hate groups such as the Wahhabis and Islamists who are represented by political parties and government institutions. You don’t see many Muslims condemning the Wahhabi war against the world but its very easy to find public support of the same.
Mike, the pilgrimmage to Mecca is one of the most sacred rituals of Islam. When “Death To America” is written into that ritual so that America is synonymous with the devil, that is a rather powerful statement of hate. Some two million Muslims made the trek to Mecca and on to Mina to stone the devil and, by proxy, America. Not one Muslim complained making America the devil nor targeting it for death, not even the American Muslims. Now contemplate that, Mike. If the Baptists hung a banner in Chicago O’Hare airport that said “Death To Muslims”, do you think there would be a complaint among at least one of two million passersby? It would raise a storm of protest from every corner of our society. In America, such expressions of hate are not tolerated. In the Muslim world, they are casually accepted.
Your instincts are good not to rush to judgement against a group of people based on the crimes of a small subset. However, there is quite a bit of evidence that demonstrates widespread Muslim antagonism to the rest of the world. Of the sixty some wars in the world at the moment, perhaps a third to half of them are Muslims making war on their non-Muslim neighbors. There is a lot of evidence to demonstrate the terror against infidels is popular in the Muslim world. You might want to stare those facts in the face and revise your too generous judgement of the good will of the Muslim world toward infidels.
Steve
[Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on April 12, 2005 11:36 PM]
[Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on April 12, 2005 11:49 PM]
Re(2): Applicability
Thank you, PM.
I want to stress that there is a big difference between people who talk about hating America and people who actually act against America. I see people all over the place wearing Che Guevara shirts. Do you think they really support Marxism, or do they just think he looks cool in a silhouette? How many of them would really hop on board the “revolution” if it came to America?
Yes, there are people around the world (not only Muslims) wearing Bin-Laden T-shirts, but the fact that they are wearing T-shirts (a Western implement) suggests they’re not very well-endowed to his cause. Is it “cool?” Quite possibly. Offensive to you? Certainly. A real threat? Probably not.
In addition, you have to keep in mind the way the American media works. It is privatized; it will focus on the events that sale. Unfortunately, anti-American rallys on the news get a lot better ratings than Arabs in a tea-shop saying September 11th is truly upsetting. That doesn’t mean that anti-Americanism doesn’t exist in the Middle East, but it gets a lot more coverage, proportionally, than other sentiments, because it appeals to the American public’s emotion. And that’s what keeps you watching the news, while they get money from the advertisements between protest coverage. It would be great if reporting was perfectly balanced, but until it is (and I doubt it ever will be), you must keep the reports in perspective.
Re(1): Applicability
Steve,
You are absolutely wrong in this regard — that the majority of the Muslim world reacted with glee and celebrated 9/11. I LIVE in the Arab Muslim world and all around me, as well as on the international news, I saw an outpouring of grief and sympathy towards the Americans over these horrendous acts of evil. Yes, I also saw the video of the Palestinians — a brief clip played over and over — but that stood out because it was a singular reaction in opposition to the rest of us. In fact, if you remember (honestly and fairly) the attitude towards America didn’t really start going downhill until Bush elected to extend his terror watch to include invading Iraq.
And another thing you are wrong about: Expressions of hate are “tolerated” everywhere to some degree. You cannot legislate anbd enforce reason. Fortunately, though, the overwhelming majority of people are good and simply want to live in peace.
I really hate it when you generalize and exaggerate to try to defend your own indefensible attitude towards Muslims. I know you know better than that, Steve.
Salaam,
PM
Re(6): Please Take Your Gift
[quote] To me and to Islam as well for that matter, Islam is good deeds rather than just rote actions[/quote]
Please explain to me then you view of prayer and the other pillars of Islam. Can you do away with these if you do “good deeds”? It is much more than that. Islam is a way of life, it is a complete package. You can’t ignore the fardh because you do “good deeds”. What is your view of sitrah? You might do wrong, but do you feel it is right to advertise it? I am not saying lie about it, but why put it out there on display for everyone?
I also have issue with the way that you depict women on this site. You have hundreds and hundreds of pictures of women taken for no reason other than they are young and attractive. This objectification is so typical of Arab men and one of the reason why I fled the gulf. Women were not subjects to be talked about, their feelings, their ideas, the things they have to offer. They are objects. That is what comes to mind when I see page after page of nothing but pictures of women on your site. Why not talk some women, post their comments on your site? Is it only the physical manifestation of women that matters? Personally, I would rather see more pictures of your wife instead of women half your age.
I also take issue with the clear way you almost worship material things. You bought this truck, bought this new gadget, ect. Another thing I cannot stand with gulf men. I think this is a simptom of the low self-esteem that you talked about earlier. Men in the gulf try to compensate for their feelings of low-self esteem by the amount of stuff they have, how much money they spend, how many wives they have, and how often they travel. It is a great bore. Low self esteem of gulf men leads directly to abuse of women, violence and materialism. It is a clear need to own things and to stake your claim on your place in society based on what you own, whether it is a new Porsche, or the women you “own.” For all of your complaints about Arab culture you are certainly a son of the culture. Your apples certainly did not fall far from the tree. This bothers me not because I am jealous. I am very well educated and very well employed. If you look at the name I registered under I think you will recognise it if you know anything about families in the gulf. None of that means anything. I choose poverty in the west over suffication in the gulf. I made it myself and it makes it all more valuable. In the religion it is said that people with money should not refrain in showing it, but not because it is there to flash, because those in need could recognise your wealth and be able to come to you in time of need. It is my experience that 99.99% of the wealthy in the gulf display such wealth to justify their place in society and make themselves feel better. Most of them do not give enough zakat to buy a begger a thob. The gulf is the heighth of hypocrisy, the sooner it sinks into the sea, save Makkah and Medina, the better. The world, and Islam for that matter, would be in a far better place for it.
One thing I think you fail to take into account is that you are the one who decided to start a blog. You are the one who decides to let people into your life. You cannot then claim foul when people engage you on your life. If you do not want your private life up for discussion do not post your details here, but when you do you cannot complain when these same details become fodder for debate.
I think your actions with Malik were thin skinned. If you want to run this site and post personal ideas and behavior on it rest assured someone is going to call you on it whether you like it or not. Malik was much more polite than many other posters, current and past, he was just a bit more prolific. To a certain extent I understand this on his part as he seemed the only one on this board willing to take a pro-Muslim and pro-Arab stance, even though he was pretty cutting in his criticism of Arab culture and regimes.
Do you forget Mahmood that you welcomed him here originally? You commented on how knowledgeable he was on Arab culture and politics and that you liked that because it wasnt common in westerners. It was interesting to watch the progression of the interaction between Malik and the rest of the posters here. I felt some of Malik’s frustration because you often refused to address the clearly anti-Arab and anti-Muslim statements here, many of which were clearly inflamatory and filled with hatred. Malik took it too far, agreed, but had you been more of a moderating force on this blog I don’t think it would have gotten that far. I think you let Malik go too far and you completely failed to address some of the comments and actions of a couple of other posters here who clearly went over the line. The bias for the nationalistic and bigoted flag waving of some of the western posters got on my nerves. As they say in the UK, it “gave me the hump.”
I think the issue with Malik is as much your problem Mahmood as it was his. You were not fair, you did not act as a proper moderator. I think you acted too thin skinned and you were not at all impartial. You clearly took sides, by both your words and your selective silence.
Anyway, enough of my rant for now. I am off to another 24 shift. Have fun.
Allah Maakum.
Re(2): Bring Back Malik
[quote]I hardly think a Supreme Being is going to care about what we wear, what we eat, or whether we’re in church every Sunday. I would also say a supremely enlightened being isn’t going to torture misguided souls for all of eternity. [/quote]
There are those willing to kill or die for the exact opposite belief – until all the world worships their construct like they do, and beats their women like they do, and treats others like they do.
How do you fight against such blind hated of humanity? You must discredit their beliefs. You must mock them publically. You must let everyone know exactly what it is they believe beyond all of the lies.
In this case, it is Islam. It could easily be Scientology or Mormonism.
Can Islam survive a direct assault on the extremist belief system? If I mock the idea that God demands that infidels be slain, does that mean I’m attacking the extremist position, or am I attacking Islam itself?
That was -my- issue with Malik. He could not refute my arguments. By taking an extremist position, I was attacking it directly, mocking it. Yet he saw me as mocking Islam – which means that he equated Islam with the extremist position, or at least that’s what I’d gathered beyond his exhortations to the contrary.
Please Take Your Gift
I suggest if anyone have any concerns regarding this display at the F-1 races they contact the group themselves. The website address for Discover Islam Centre in Bahrain is http://www.discoverislam.net/ They have e-mail links to contact them there.
for the record, the names of the posters have been muddled up in the import process from Xaraya. Most (if not all) of the posts labelled as belonging to 7alaylia actually belong to ‘Malik’
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