So what do you get when you habitually treat the symptoms, rather than the ailment?
I don’t know about you, I do know however that I am absolutely sick of hearing the following phrases:
1 This is not in our Arab tradition
2 This is not in our Muslim tradition
3 This is alien to our way of life
4 This is not Islam
What exactly is our tradition and way of life then? Why, anything that is dictated to us of course! Why should it be any different? The above 4 lines are simply used to yet again sweep a problem under the carpet as we continue to hide our collective heads in the sand and pretend that everything is absolutely perfect.
Of course, those of us who are awake know better.
We deserve what we got so far.
This is what we’re harvesting from hundreds of years of accepting mediocrity as excellence. This is what we’re reaping from acceptance of our lot and acquiescing to “Allah’s will” rather than understanding that our lot can indeed be improved by tolerance, understanding, acceptance of others, hard work and sweat and not depending on Allah to fix things for us.
What’s a bomb here and another there? What’s life worth in our oh so great culture? What’s a head severed here and a body mutilated there? What difference does it make if these events happen in Iraq, Saudi, Qatar or Bahrain?
What am I complaining about? Everybody who dies is a martyr to a side of the conflict and they all end up in Heaven screwing those vestal virgins for their efforts. And no matter what we who like to call ourselves moderates do or say, someone like Qardawi, Osama, Zarqawi and their ilk will come out and “explain” the killing is really okay in these situations… as they were targeting infidels anyway and Muslims where not really the targets… they were just collateral damage.
My condolences to the family and friends of Jonathan Adams. As much as I hate to admit it, his death unfortunately has been in vain.
May he rest in peace.
Comments
Curing the symptoms
It’s only goin to get worse, check out this article:
[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mi…ast/4366421.stm[/url]
“On Thursday, al-Qaeda’s Saudi boss, Saleh al-Oufi, used an Islamist website to urge attacks on “crusader” enemies in Qatar, Bahrain, Oman and the United Arab Emirates. ”
Hell to this guy and his followers, it’s a shame these ppl get to live.
Curing the symptoms
The above reply is by me, excuse me, was signed out.
I’d have to agree, the arabs need to stop talkin and get into action. We’re known to talk a lot but that’s about all what we’re good at. Am not generalizing here, but the Arab World needs to get rid of this condemning mentality and start busting those culprits. We will never move forward if such profound mental retardation still exists.
[Modified by: Khalid (KhalidSaad) on March 21, 2005 06:13 AM]
Curing the symptoms
Mahmood,
[quote]
Denying that the root of our problems is our pathetic hold on Islam without having the courage to question it in all of its facets and the very people who have assigned themselves as its guardians and interpreters will only lead us to the complete disappearance of not only this religion, but our culture.
[/quote]
This is what I have been saying for a very long time. Any ideology can be perverted if the only people ‘allowed’ to question it is nobody. It’s doubly hard when the ideology itself is self-supportive: Islam, LDS and Scientology all claim to be true because they are ‘obviously’ true. Another way to put it: They are true because the book says that they are true.
In each of these three religions, the pain of asking questions is either death, ostricization, or ‘reeducation’ (i.e. torture until you re-accept the religion) respectively. In each case, the only way to release the stranglehold of the Imams, Prophets, or Sea Captains is to somehow enforce change through moderates who reject violence unabashedly, and speak louder than the false-moderates who qualify their rejection of extremism; or apostates, who can force the criticism into public view and keep it there.
However, in only one of these three cases has this been effective – Scientology: a religion started as a lark, and surviving only through the rich patronage of Hollywood (Odd. like Wahabbism and Oil..)
What to do?
Mahmood, for as much as he’d want to, cannot do much. Hes in the lion’s den as it were – and to come out swinging would end with his head on the floor of some dingy apartment, or splattered up against the street. Such is the fate of anyone who ‘offends’ the status quo. Just ask Salman Rushdie, or any of the numerous Egyptian, Iranian and Saudi intellectuals who have met their final fate.
Could people like Malik be the solution? Western converts?
I personally don’t think so – for every one Malik, there’s a convert who joins up on the ‘wrong side’ as it were. The latter is growing far more than the former if the number of converts killed in places like Iraq and Afghanistan hold any water.
In the end, I believe that only popular revolt holds the key. If, by some miniscule chance, a democratic and secular tide leaps forth – the stranglehold of religion may be loosened. A lynchpin of that strategy would be Iran; if Iran were to overthrow the Mullahs, there is a non-negligible chance that they would also overthrow their religion en masse. Perhaps, seeing that happen would allow for a permanent weakening of the religious establishment, allowing for true freedom of expression and religion.
But none of this can happen completely from within.
Curing the symptoms
Mahmood and all the rest of you,
You’re not giving me anything to disagree with here. How do you expect me to go off on a long-winded arrogant American rant on the Middle East if you beat me to all my arguments?
Rantless In DC,
Steve
Re: Curing the symptoms
[quote]Once again Ethan you live in a fantasy world. Muslims are not going to “overthrow their religion”. It just isnt going to happen, so the rest of your idea doesnt really matter. What MUST happen is a real homegrown effort to get back to the roots of Islam, prove the moderate nature and history of Islam. You cannot convince me Ethan that over 1 billion people are going to just decide their religion is rubbish and are going to them stop following it. [/quote]
I disagree. And I was speaking of Iran specifically, where Islam is holding on through the will of a few Ayatollahs, and secret conversions back to Zoroastrianism are on the rise. There was a major even in Norway a few months back where a few hundred Iranians reverted to the religion of their ancestors. Just a quick glance at this year’s new year fire festival can give an inkling of what would likely happen should Iran overthrow the Mullahs.
[quote]
I also dont buy the idea that given complete freedom of religious thought Muslims will leave their faith. The experience of Muslims in the West directly refutes that idea. [/quote]
There is a stark difference between the availability of free religious thought and the application of it. Many Churches in the US have allowed Muslim imams the chance to come in and describe Islam to the members. How many Mosques -in the US- have allowed preachers, priests or rabbis the same option?
The day that I can walk into a Mosque and discuss Apathetic Agnosticism, invited by a ecumenical committee, (which I have been invited to do in a couple of Churches for their ‘faith week
Re: Curing the symptoms
Steve, does that include me? If so, I must admit that miracles still happen!
Curing the symptoms
Isn’t that a shocker, the same words repeat themselves out of my parents’ mouths… I asked, a while back, to go to Desert Rock 2005 this Friday, reply from my mom was: [i]”I’m not Marie-Antoinette.”[/i] (My mom’s favorite version of saying, it’s not part of our tradition, religion, culture, etc. or I didn’t bring you up to be a western-minded person.) I still wonder what her reply will be when I come out to her within the next several years.
Sammie
Re(1): Curing the symptoms
Posted “I disagree. And I was speaking of Iran specifically, where Islam is holding on through the will of a few Ayatollahs, and secret conversions back to Zoroastrianism are on the rise.”
Even if all of Iran converted to Pat Robertson’s brand of Christianity it would make a VERY small dent in the Islamic world. You seem to miss something as well, as soon as the Mullahs fall in Iran, interest in Islam will rise significantly. Why? Because people never like anything shoved down their throats. Given the ability to access Islam and approach it as they wish, the majority will choose to do just that. You seem to have some obsession with Zoroastrianism. Mullahs or no,Islam will always be the majority religion in Iran, so the question of replacing it is nonsense. They must learn how to address the faults in their approach to religion and within their society as a whole. Islam is there to stay, so stop seeking pipe dreams of an Islamic world that leaves their religion en-mass. It isnt going to happen. Why not give us some realistic answers based on real world scenarios?
Posted “There was a major even in Norway a few months back where a few hundred Iranians reverted to the religion of their ancestors. Just a quick glance at this year’s new year fire festival can give an inkling of what would likely happen should Iran overthrow the Mullahs. ”
Yes, and they were jumping over fires here for the Iranian New Years as well. A few observations that you might not know because it would seem you have no real connections with the Iranian community abroad. The majority of them were secular in the first place and left right before or right after the Islamic revolution. Hence, abroad, the Iranian community is overwhelmingly secular, so you cannot really try to make generalisations about Iran, as a country, based on the diapora. It just isnt accurate. I base this on reading, schooling, and having close contacts within the American Iranian community. With the Mullahs gone and their spoon fed Islamism crushed, people will flock back to the religion, not leave it. Like with anything else, people reject what is forced on them. When given a choice they will go back, willingly, to what they know and once loved.
Posted “There is a stark difference between the availability of free religious thought and the application of it. Many Churches in the US have allowed Muslim imams the chance to come in and describe Islam to the members. How many Mosques -in the US- have allowed preachers, priests or rabbis the same option? ”
Actually, you would be surprised. Once again, since you have no intimate knowledge of the American Muslim community, you wouldnt know. I guess you cannot read this in books or in the papers. There are a few differences here. First of all, American Muslims already have a very good understanding of what Christianity is all about. They have lived in a majority Christian community for years and have friends and co-workers of the Christian faith. Many Muslims come from countries with a Christian minority. Are they experts? Certainly not, but they have a lot more knowledge on Christianity than the average American Christian has on Islam, hence the need to speak to churches about what Muslims really believe. You would be surprised to know how many times I have had to explain to Christians they we Muslims believe in Jesus, we believe in the virgin birth, we even have a whole chapter of The Qur’an dedicated to Mary.
More to the point, there is a large amount of interfaith work being done in the USA. Christian and Jewish leaders have been to, and regularly come to, both of the mosques I attend. Dar al Hijrah and ADAMS(All Dulles Area Muslim Society). They have spoken at these places many times and have regular committee meetings to foster relations that are open to the public. Every year, during Christian, Jewish and Muslim holidays, people from all three faiths get together to do charity work. I worked at a Church this Ramadan with Christians, Jews and Muslims feeding the homeless in Washington DC. This is the TRUE spirit of all three religions. I reject completely your idea that Islam must be dropped, cannot be reformed. Your idea is one that will lead to continuing strife, murder and bloodshed. Working together is the key, not the erradication of anyone’s faith.
Posted “The day that I can walk into a Mosque and discuss Apathetic Agnosticism, invited by a ecumenical committee, (which I have been invited to do in a couple of Churches for their ‘faith week
Re(2): Curing the symptoms
[quote]Like with anything else, people reject what is forced on them. When given a choice they will go back, willingly, to what they know and once loved. [/quote]
Not necessarily. Europe has not had religion forced on them for quite some time and Christianity is dying out there. Religious freedom may make people more religious or it may not.
-Aliandra
Re(3): Curing the symptoms
Posted “Not necessarily. Europe has not had religion forced on them for quite some time and Christianity is dying out there. Religious freedom may make people more religious or it may not. ”
Applying a European/Christian/Western model doesnt work here. This is one of the big problems when this issue is discussed in the West. We cannot seem to do anything but apply our standards, our history, and our ideas upon an area, a people, and a religion, that none of this applies to. nor should it. I do not think a Western approach to the issue in Islam and in Muslim countries will work, besides, when one looks at how the Europeans got to where they are, do we really want Islam and the Muslim world to take that route? I sure dont.
Muslims and Muslim countries must come up with their own unique ideas for their countries based on their ideas and their societies. Importing them from the outside wont work.
Curing the symptoms
Interesting………..BBC Reports on the attack in Qatar:
“Sheikh Yussef al-Qaradawi, an influential Egyptian-born hardline Muslim scholar based in Qatar, said such attacks were “not permitted either by religion or norms”.
Curing the symptoms
Mahmood,
Could you please do us a favor and run for office?
You have my, and my family’s, vote!
Best,
Tim.
Re(2): Curing the symptoms
[quote]You seem to miss something as well, as soon as the Mullahs fall in Iran, interest in Islam will rise significantly. Why? Because people never like anything shoved down their throats.[/quote]
I disagree. After having something shoved down your throat for decades, do you really want more when the shoving stops? Somehow I doubt it. I mean, really, Malik – who is living in the fantasy world now?
[quote]
would be surprised to know how many times I have had to explain to Christians they we Muslims believe in Jesus, we believe in the virgin birth, we even have a whole chapter of The Qur’an dedicated to Mary.[/quote]
But did you tell them that Islam also teaches about the Trinitarians believeing that the Trinity is Father-Mother-Son and Jesus producing miracles as a child (told only in apocryphal writings of Thomas)? Do you tell them that Islam specifically says that anyone who believes that Jesus died on the cross blasphemes? Do you tell them that traditional Muslim commentary of Christianity is based on outright lies? (i.e. the ‘begotten’ controversy)
Islam -has- to deny Christianity’s basic core, otherwise there would be no need for Mohammed. Do you explain that to them?
[quote]So you are the person that can say what is and isnt tolerance? You couldnt make that speech i 95% of American churches. Why extend the challenge to Islam when you cannot even meet it in Christianity?[/quote]
Even 5% is meeting my challenge.
[quote]You are the perfect example of why we dont hire PhDs here at my work. They sit around thinking all day about what could or should be and cannot spend enough time dealing with what IS.[/quote]
As sad thing too, considering where you work, Malik. But I don’t think you understand what a PhD is. My thoughts are not contingent on my degree.
[quote]Once again you point to Saudi Arabia to try to prove some point about Islam. That is a red herring meant to stiffle all discussion. Saudi is in no way an accurate depicon of Islam. Even conservatives look at Saudi in dismay for the nonsense they try to label as religion. [/quote]
How is it not Islam when Mohammed ordered the expulsion of nonbelievers from the peninsula? How is it not Islam when Mohammed ordered anyone who leaves Islam for anothr religon to be killed? How is it not Islam when the City of Mecca can only be visited by Muslims?
There are many things in Saudi that are contrary to Islam. The inability to build a church, temple, or what have you there is -not-.
Re: Curing the symptoms
How Ironic.
It’s ok to bomb the crap out of Iraq, saith Qaradawi, but don’t bomb -my- homeland 😀
Curing the symptoms
Guess what the headline reads on Al Jazeera’s website regarding this story?
“An angry demonstration in Doha condemns the Doha bombing”
Interesting, sin’t it?
Re: Curing the symptoms
[quote]Mike: It is odd that they would strike in Qatar. As far as I know Al Jazeera is owned by the dictator in Qatar, how will they react when the bombs kill their friends and families instead of Iraqis? [/quote]
They will blame America, of course.
Mike, do I have to explain everything to you about the Middle East? Everything, EVERYTHING, is America’s fault. If you get bit by a flea in the desert, George Bush’s support of Israel and the neo-conservative conspiracy are to blame.
Steve
Re(1): Curing the symptoms
Keep writing, Malik. Something will pop up.
Keep Hope Alive,
Steve
Re(3): Curing the symptoms
Ethan,
It most certainly is a waste of time talking to you. You are not interested in dialogue. You have made it clear time and time again that you do not believe that there can be a moderate Islam, you have made it clear that reform cannot happen in Islam. I respecfully beg to differ. You have made it clear time and time again the only solution is the ending of Islam as a religion, even though you have not had the guts to openly so say.
You can continue to preach what I feel is a message of hate and conflict. I will not do so. As a Muslim I believe that we all have more ties that bind than those that seperate. You can continue to believe that Muslims will all convert the second they get a chance. I know this is not the case so I will continue, as millions of Muslims, Christians and Jews are doing, and work together to bring our communities together.
Yours is a message with no end, it is a message of unending warfare. I reject your message as being as useless as the same message spouted by Jewish, Muslim and Christian extremists. You have no answer, hence YOU are part of the problem. For you the only answer is for Muslims to leave their faith, hence you have no answer.
Re(1): Curing the symptoms
Posted “It’s ok to bomb the crap out of Iraq, saith Qaradawi, but don’t bomb -my- homeland ”
No habla Inglais? Qaradawi is Egyptian, not from Qatar. You do not see the difference between attacking US troops and bombing a play? Resistance against an occupation for is legitimate. They go wrong when they target civilians. I do not think Qaradawi has agreed with the targeting of civilians has he?
[Modified by: Malik (celticview) on March 21, 2005 01:25 PM]
[Modified by: Malik (celticview) on March 21, 2005 01:26 PM]
Re(4): Curing the symptoms
Malik,
I have got my glass halfway to my lips, so please put some closure on this:
Is Ethan a Bin Laden or not?
You’re almost there, please finish it. I’m getting thirsty.
Standing By To Go Bottom’s Up,
Steve
Curing the symptoms
This is from Mike in the US,
It is odd that they would strike in Qatar. As far as I know Al Jazeera is owned by the dictator in Qatar, how will they react when the bombs kill their friends and families instead of Iraqis? Many pundits were mocking bin laden and Zar. because they put Kuwaitt in their sites and not Qatar, both countries were involved in “sinful” activities. I fear that the monsters will attack anyone, and destroy anyone who does not wish to return to the “good life” a thousand years ago.
Re(4): Curing the symptoms
[quote]when one looks at how the Europeans got to where they are, do we really want Islam and the Muslim world to take that route? I sure dont.
[/quote]
Europe went through a lot of pain to develop the concepts of representative government and religious freedom. The Muslim world doesn’t have to go through the same mess to be successful. Just copy the end-product, as the successful Asian countries have done.
-Aliandra
Re(5): Curing the symptoms
Steve writes “Malik,
I have got my glass halfway to my lips, so please put some closure on this:
Is Ethan a Bin Laden or not?
You’re almost there, please finish it. I’m getting thirsty. ”
Take something seriously would you? I do not find Ethan’s beliefs in the slightest bit funny. What he talks about is certainly very radical and unrealistic. His ideas would inevitably bring about decades and decades of more violence with no end. His ideas offer no viable solution, hence he is a part of the problem. Label him as you will. I just think he is another person, in a long line of people, whose ideas will solve nothing and only add fuel to the fire.
I think Muslim people and Muslim countries should address their political and religious issues using unique models and methods that fit to their society and to their religion. Using Western models will not work. No one else can reform Islam or Muslim society but Muslims. I believe people should move together, work together. I do not propose the destruction of any society or any religion. Again, those that do are part of the problem.
Re(5): Curing the symptoms
Posted “Europe went through a lot of pain to develop the concepts of representative government and religious freedom. The Muslim world doesn’t have to go through the same mess to be successful. Just copy the end-product, as the successful Asian countries have done.
-Aliandra ”
It is unrealistic to expect a “one size fits all” solution to work in the Islamic world or in the Middle East. It just wont work. If you know the history of the area it would be clear. The populations of the areas are not the same as the Asian populations, there is religion in the mix, which wasnt the case in Asia.
Muslims and Muslim countries must find their own way. Contrary to what people think, they were on the way before 9/11. These things dont happen over night. Actions since 9/11 have sometimes helped this movement, sometimes hindered it.
Re: Curing the symptoms
Posted “The only cure I consider to be the solution is that we start admitting our mistakes and accept criticism, which are a problem allot of people in the Arab World tend to ignore. I have to say if we don’t deal with the problem we are facing which is extremism we are going to face allot of trouble. ”
Indeed, and we need to accept that such criticism doesnt mean we have to abandon our faith or traditions. Reform can happen, we can keep our identity. When outside forces start telling people they must drop their religion, or must destroy all of their traditions, that is when the support for extremism rises.
Posted “Just a few days ago I saw an outtake from 60 Minutes where the Saudi authorities just acknowledged that they had to change their educational system and that it was a mistake to send young people to Afghanistan in the 1980’s to fight the soviets and that the reforms they were introducing were a solution to the problem”
I dont think it was wrong to send people to fight in Afghanistan. There are many cases where people went abroad, even from America, to fight in just causes. In the case of America look at the numbers of Americans that fought in the Spanish civil war. The problem in Saudi is way beyond that. There is a marriage between the exremist clerics and the Saudi family that must be seperated and destroyed. That is the only solution in Saudi Arabia.
Re(4): Curing the symptoms
Malik,
[quote]How is it not Islam when Mohammed ordered the expulsion of nonbelievers from the peninsula? How is it not Islam when Mohammed ordered anyone who leaves Islam for anothr religon to be killed?[/quote]
Malik, there are some rather intolerant passages in the Koran. Mohammad did some things that weren’t very nice. These things should be addressed directly, not with zig-zagging rhetoric or “no true Scotsman” deflections.
Don’t equate criticism with hatred of your religion. Part of the reason that Islam seems so shrill and so angry to us Westerners is that it’s so unwilling to take criticism and so reluctant to look at the darker parts of itself.
Christianity got slapped in the face several times. It did them a world of good.
-Aliandra
Re(1): Curing the symptoms
Steve writes “They will blame America, of course.
Mike, do I have to explain everything to you about the Middle East? Everything, EVERYTHING, is America’s fault. If you get bit by a flea in the desert, George Bush’s support of Israel and the neo-conservative conspiracy are to blame.
Steve”
I dont think this is really the case anymore. More and more people are seeing that it begin and ends at home. This doesnt excuse US actions in the area, support for the occupation of Palestine, support for murderous dictators, but that is only worth so much. If the people in the areas really want change they are going to have to do it for themselves. It is time for democracy, time for elected governments. If the US doesnt like who is elected, who cares?
Nothing will happen in these areas until they drop the fatalistic “Insha’Allah” attitude. “If God wills it” is all good and fine, but Allah will not help those who sit around and wait for it. Part of the philosphy of Islam is that good will move on if the people He has sent his message to do not try to realise it. This is why the message passed from the Jews, to the Christians, and then onto the Muslims. The overridding priority in Islam is justice. To be a Muslim one MUST strive for justice. If they do not they are shirking their responsibilities. Insha’Allah is fine, but not when people are dying.
Re(5): Curing the symptoms
Posted “Malik, there are some rather intolerant passages in the Koran. Mohammad did some things that weren’t very nice. These things should be addressed directly, not with zig-zagging rhetoric or “no true Scotsman” deflections. ”
Again, context is everything. If you dont accept the idea that somethings were meant for a certain time and situation, and that other things were not, I cannot help you. I can tell you that the vast majority of Muslims think it so, that is what matters. All religions have portions that arent “very nice”. The question is how do they deal with those issues.
Posted “Don’t equate criticism with hatred of your religion. Part of the reason that Islam seems so shrill and so angry to us Westerners is that it’s so unwilling to take criticism and so reluctant to look at the darker parts of itself. ”
I have no problem with honest criticism. Ethan’s words, however, transend criticism as he has made it clear Islam needs to be extinguised. That is not a platform from which we can discuss things. When he announces that Islam cannot be reformed, that is lessor than other religions, this is not a basis for discussion. I am more than happy to discuss issues, to the extent that I can, as long as my religion, and myself, are accepted as equals. Part of the reason there is a problem with discussing religion is that many of the people asking the questions come from the same direction as Ethan.
Ethan cannot discuss the issues. He pronounces what Islam is and isnt, and procedes to let us know that he thinks there is no reformation for Islam, no modernisation. There is no room for talking with him, it is clear his mind is made up and he is only talking to try and score points.
Posted “Christianity got slapped in the face several times. It did them a world of good. ”
Islam has had the same thing happen, and some. People are trying to come to grips with the changes that must be made. We need to address very serious issues here. But when you get a chorus of people like Ethan whose rant is “Islam must end” it makes the hand of us moderates very weak. This is why Ethan and his lot are part of the problem.
Re(6): Curing the symptoms
Malik,
[quote]It is unrealistic to expect a “one size fits all” solution to work in the Islamic world or in the Middle East. It just wont work. there is religion in the mix, which wasnt the case in Asia.
[/quote]
You’re saying that a democratic government won’t work in the Islamic world when it has proven to work everywhere else? India is pretty religious too and they are pointing in the right direction. A representative government that respects your integrity and your personal beliefs will work everywhere. Human nature is pretty much the same. No one is saying middle-eastern culture should become more western. All we’re saying is that a government that preserves your rights and does what the people want (most of the time) is the best form of government.
-Aliandra
Re(6): Curing the symptoms
Malik,
[quote]Again, context is everything. If you dont accept the idea that somethings were meant for a certain time and situation, and that other things were not, I cannot help you.
[/quote]
Certain actions of Mohammad that do not seem to have a context at all. For example, assasinating some of his critics, one of whom was a mother of small children. There was also an incident where he tortured and blinded some guys with hot irons so they would reveal the location of some treasure. After killing them, he showed the corpses to their wives. If Mohammad is meant to be a role model, it’s stuff like this that needs to be addressed.
-Aliandra
Curing the symptoms
Ethan.
It wont be a popular revolt. It can only start by the Moslems in the West who can create a paradigm shift. And I dont think it will be onr prototype either. It will be a combination of moslem feminists, moslem intellectuals and moslem students of history who will dare to push the boundaries of covenational wisdom until the ‘unthinkable moderation’ becomes the norm …
JJ
Re(1): Curing the symptoms
[quote]Malik: I dont think it was wrong to send people to fight in Afghanistan. There are many cases where people went abroad, even from America, to fight in just causes. In the case of America look at the numbers of Americans that fought in the Spanish civil war. [/quote]
The Saudis just wanted to get rid of homegrown troublemakers and the Wahhabis wanted their jihad against the Russian atheists. There were bad motives all around. However, they did marginally help to contain the Soviet empire, so that’s good. The bad thing is that the Saudis kept feeding the Islamist beast.
The American communists who fought in the Spanish Civil War were not fighting for a just cause. Communism and fascism are two sides of the same coin. No good would come of victory of either side.
[quote]Malik: The problem in Saudi is way beyond that. There is a marriage between the exremist clerics and the Saudi family that must be seperated and destroyed. That is the only solution in Saudi Arabia.[/quote]
Saudi Arabia must be dismantled and its current Saudi and Wahhabi rulers dispossessed. Some of the Saudi princes and Wahhabi clerics should be hanged for war crimes with respect to their involvement with the Sep 11 attacks. Many of the Wahhabi clerics should be imprisoned for their support of the Islamist jihad against the West along with their domestic campaign of terror. All of the Saudi princes and Wahhabi clerics must have their petrodollar paychecks cut off so they can make no more terror with it.
Steve
Curing the symptoms
PM asked me to post this for her concerning the attack in Doha.
[i]The bomb was about a block from my house and in fact knocked things off
shelves and counters. A number of our faculty & students were there that
evening, but no one seriously hurt, al hamdulillah. The man killed taught in
the school next to our uni and was my friend Marcia’s son’s English teacher.
This is a great tragedy to a young fellow who just lost his mother to cancer
5 months ago…. [/i]
She also has BIG nugget to drop for all of us but I will refrain from letting the surprise out of the box here. It is a BIG one too!!
PM is fine and doing well in Doha and keeping busy teaching.
Thanks!
Bonsaimark
Re: Curing the symptoms
[quote]Where are the Muslims that improved and created whole branches of society? Where are the Muslims know for innovotion, poetry and were seen as a light to the world? [/quote]
Long gone – 500 years dead. Muslims would do well to stop imagining that this so-called “Golden Age” can be recovered. It can’t – no more than the lost civilisations of the Mayans and Aztecs can be recovered. Islamic civilisation reached its zenith 500+ years ago and it’s time is long passed. Instead of always looking to yesterday in this mournful way, Muslims need to create a wholly new way of moving on in the modern world. If they don’t, they are doomed to this strife and stagnation forever. Look at the up-and-coming countries now – China and, to a lesser extent, India. The Muslim world is getting lapped all the time, by the West, by the existing Asian Tiger countries, and now by the new big players on the world stage. The world isn’t going to stop and wait for Muslims. It’s not going to turn the clock back for Muslims. Either Muslims change their worldview, and change it fast, or they will fall ever further behind. Poetry really isn’t going to do it for you.
Re(6): Curing the symptoms
[quote]The populations of the areas are not the same as the Asian populations, there is religion in the mix, which wasnt the case in Asia.[/quote]
There is no religion in Asia? Wow. That’s a new one on me. Japan was and still remains Shinto and Zen Buddhist. This will never change. South Korea is Buddhist and Christian. China was Confucian, and remains culturally so, though the official religion is ‘patriotism’.
Even Signapore and Indonesia have Muslim majorities, but they are westernized? Why? Because they have learned that too-strict adherence to religion is not the way forward. Unfortunately, Wahabbi-trained Jihadis have decided that Aceh and the rest of Indonesia needs to be Saudified.
Looking at the success of Wahhabbified/Nasserified ‘Islamic’ nations, it seens a definite step backward.
Perhaps.. just perhaps.. it -is- a truth that fundamentalist religion creates the environment for anti-modernity.
Re(2): Curing the symptoms
First of all, I see no difference between bombing Iraqi/American -civilians- and bombing Qatari -civilians-.
Maybe you haven’t noticed, Malik – 9 out of 10 major bombings in Iraq target civilians. Good to know that you support the ‘resistance’. What a noble cause it is.
As for Qaradawi, He has lived in Qatar since 1961. Perhaps you didn’t notice Mahmood’s recent post about his theology. I refer you to his very famous fatwa: “El-amalijat al-istishadiya a’zam suwar al-jihad” – Martyr operations are the highest form of Jihad, published 3 Oct 2001, and can be found here: http://www.qaradawi.net/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=1461&version=1&template_id=130&parent_id=17
He has supported the killing of American civilians in Iraq, and does not condemn the indescriminate slaughter of Iraqi civilians if they happen to be in a targeted area.
In short, I find your support for this heathen barbarian to be reprehensible.
Re(6): Curing the symptoms
[quote]His ideas would inevitably bring about decades and decades of more violence with no end. His ideas offer no viable solution, hence he is a part of the problem.[/quote]
Odd. My ideas are exactly consonant with Mahmood’s ideas – sticking too closely to the literal fundamentals as dictated by morons in turbans has held development of Islamic civilization back for a millennium.
I propose free, open discussion. I support anyone’s right to change their religion without being forced into hiding. I abhor that there are those who would send death threats to people who merely are expressing their human right of religious freedom.
You, on the other hand, see my calls for free and open inquiry and freedom of religion and freedom to leave one’s religion to be a direct affont. You are calling me violent and hateful and spiteful – an extremist – yet I have more than not expressed my views and my solution openly, and do not advocate violence. (At least not in the same vein as Steve 😀 )
Perhaps it’s you who are not listening.
Curing the symptoms
What is our responsibility?
What practical measures can be taken to highlight that responsibility?
Who do we need to engage?
What’s the best forum for debate? Should it be televised?
Does violence perpetrated in the name of Islam increase or decrease piety among Arabs?
Do Bahrainis feel, in any way, capable of effecting political change?
Does the equal distribution of wealth remove the imputus for violent reaction?
What has America got to do with it?
Is it legal for religious leaders to seek election to political office?
Is nationality more or less important than religious affiliation?
What ‘tools’ are at our disposal to address any of the above?
Why isn’t anybody in the Arab World doing anything?
Is Islam the answer, or the problem?
Sorry Mahmood can’t remember my password.
Peace Taker
Re(6): Curing the symptoms
[quote]Again, context is everything. If you dont accept the idea that somethings were meant for a certain time and situation, and that other things were not, I cannot help you. I can tell you that the vast majority of Muslims think it so, that is what matters.[/quote]
I’m still waiting for the context.
I’m also taking umbrage at ‘most Muslims’. Everything I read implies the opposite.
[quote]Ethan cannot discuss the issues. He pronounces what Islam is and isnt, and procedes to let us know that he thinks there is no reformation for Islam, no modernisation. There is no room for talking with him, it is clear his mind is made up and he is only talking to try and score points. [/quote]
*sigh*
I take the Devil’s advocate position to force Malik to come up with a good defense. So far, I have found that against actual extremist arguments, the only replies that I have gotten are: ‘Not my Islam’ ‘out of context’ ‘culture not religion’ and .. oh wait.. That’s exactly the same set of defenses that were splayed at the beginning of this post.
Re: Curing the symptoms
[quote]PM is fine and doing well in Doha and keeping busy teaching.[/quote]
Thank goodness.
Curing the symptoms
The only cure I consider to be the solution is that we start admitting our mistakes and accept criticism, which are a problem allot of people in the Arab World tend to ignore. I have to say if we don’t deal with the problem we are facing which is extremism we are going to face allot of trouble.
Just a few days ago I saw an outtake from 60 Minutes where the Saudi authorities just acknowledged that they had to change their educational system and that it was a mistake to send young people to Afghanistan in the 1980’s to fight the soviets and that the reforms they were introducing were a solution to the problem.
that might solve partially what they are facing but they need to introduce more reforms …
like abolish the virtue and vice squad ….emanicipate women….seperate church from state…allow free speach…..respect human rights ……(Democracy)….i guess that isnt going to happen at all unless it comes from themselves….and that they admit all the mistakes they did in the past-……
Bugs
Curing the symptoms
Very good post Mahmood. Much more needs to be done, and everyone needs to get involved. One does not have to destroy Islam in order to take a fundamental look at the religion and question a lot of the things that people have always taken for the truth. Islam, like any other religion, has had hundreds of years of various religious and political movements trying to direct teachings in a way that benefits them.
As Muslims in 2005 we must question many things. The role of Jihad in Islam. The place of democracy within the Muslim Ummah. The distorted view of women’s rights within Islam and Muslim countries. As Muslims we must stop blaming the woes of Islam and Muslim countries on the west. This is not to say that we should ignore the damage that the West has done in Muslim lands, but it is to realise that the problems and the solutions in the Islamic world are of our making.
As a convert to Islam one of the things I have ALWAYS hated is the “Insha’Allah” attitude. Of course everything is “if God wills” but far too often this is an excuse to sit around and do absolutely nothing. God gave us free will, these people want to sit around and let God make all of our choices and do nothing. I am tired of hearing “there is no power but Allah” when things go wrong, instead I want to hear what you plan on doing to try and make sure they dont happen again.
At the moment there is NO real middle ground in the Muslim community. You have extremists and you have so called “liberals” who do not practice their religion. These “liberals” will not be able to counteract and fight against the extremists. They will never be able to counter the religious message of the extremists. What can they offer to middle of the road Muslims who reject the extremist message? Stop praying? Deny The Qur’an? Look to the West? That will not work.
I reject the idea that Islam and Muslim nations need to look to the west, for either an exact blueprint of what Muslim governments should look like or for an idea of how religious reformation must be inacted. For any progress to be made Muslim nations, and Islam in general, must blaze its own path. Trying to impose Western solutiions will not work. Islam and Muslim nations have got to this position because they have allowed a small group of extremists to reject free thought, to completely reject modernism. We have gone from the days where the West looked up to Islam to a point where Islam is equal with ignorance and backwardsness.
Where are the Muslims that improved and created whole branches of society? Where are the Muslims know for innovotion, poetry and were seen as a light to the world? Instead Islam, for many, has become a religion of denial, rejection, old men sitting in caves who refuse air conditioning and silverware because the Prophet(SAW) didnt use it. Why were less than 5,000 books translated into Arabic from foreign language sources last year? Islam is a religion where its Prophet told its followers to go even to China to learn, yet ignorance is so ripe, even a badge of honor?
Ethan writes “Could people like Malik be the solution? Western converts?
I personally don’t think so – for every one Malik, there’s a convert who joins up on the ‘wrong side’ as it were. The latter is growing far more than the former if the number of converts killed in places like Iraq and Afghanistan hold any water.”
Not true Ethan. There are thousands of converts every year in the USA alone. How many converts have been killed in places like Iraq, Chechnya, Bosia and Afghanistan? A dozen? The numbers are very small. What needs to happen is a pro-active approach on the side of us moderates to make sure that when people covert they have an active support system. Far too often a person comes to the mosque, says their Shahada, converts, and sits listening to the cries of “Allahu Akbar” in congratulations, and they is all they can expect. Often they fall prey to extremists who always seem to be much more active and proactive. In my mosque we have a converts committee and we take care of the converts, make sure they dont fall prey to these elements. Not just because we are worried they will become extremists, because we know that 99.99% of them that do turn to the extremists drop out in a year or two. It is too hard to be an extremist, that is why the Prophet (SAW) warned against extremism.
Posted “In the end, I believe that only popular revolt holds the key. If, by some miniscule chance, a democratic and secular tide leaps forth – the stranglehold of religion may be loosened. A lynchpin of that strategy would be Iran; if Iran were to overthrow the Mullahs, there is a non-negligible chance that they would also overthrow their religion en masse. Perhaps, seeing that happen would allow for a permanent weakening of the religious establishment, allowing for true freedom of expression and religion.”
Once again Ethan you live in a fantasy world. Muslims are not going to “overthrow their religion”. It just isnt going to happen, so the rest of your idea doesnt really matter. What MUST happen is a real homegrown effort to get back to the roots of Islam, prove the moderate nature and history of Islam. You cannot convince me Ethan that over 1 billion people are going to just decide their religion is rubbish and are going to them stop following it. I also dont buy the idea that given complete freedom of religious thought Muslims will leave their faith. The experience of Muslims in the West directly refutes that idea.
Muslims, those of us in the middle, at home and abroad must rise us and have a popular religious revolt! We must say loudly and certainly “NOT IN OUR NAME”. No one will do it for us, no one can do it for us. The moderate majority must stop sitting on the sidelines whilst others claim to speak in our name. They do not. The radicals must be confronted with both physical presence and with religious arguements to refute their nonsense.
Our problem, is that until very recently, the only Muslims talking moderation were those who had recjected their faiths or watered it down to the point that for all intents and purposes, they ceased being Muslim. This held little attraciveness to the moderate Muslim majority who want reform but dont want to loose their religion. The issue of change must be addressed in a religious nature and must be lead by Muslims.
There is a great book I am reading now that is exactly on this subject. It is called “Progressive Muslims” by Safi. It explains the whole idea much better than I can. The book is a collection of articles about the Islamic world and issues faced and how to confront them and solve them using a religious approach. It is time that the moderate majority train and educate leaders that can refute and humble the extremists when talking religion. Here is a good review of the book:
From Publishers Weekly
Safi, a Colgate University professor, assembles a diverse set of essays by and about “progressive” Muslims. The essays vary in topic and in effectiveness, but generally seek to challenge the images of Islam held by both xenophobic Westerners and extremist Muslims. Safi’s introduction, though showing insight into many problems today’s Muslims face but rarely discuss publicly, is clunky, citing sources from Gandhi to Bob Dylan. Part I offers hard-hitting essays that are sure to be controversial in their discussion of what scholar Tazim Kassam claims is a “curtailment… of civil liberties such as freedom of inquiry and the expression of dissenting opinions” in the U.S. after September 11. There are also some triumphant essays. Scott Siraj al-Haqq Kugle superbly analyzes Islam’s categorization of homosexuality as a sin in an essay that is long overdue and probably the only scholarly work of its kind. Gwendolyn Simmons’s piece demands the establishment of feminism as Islamic in a touching essay-cum-memoir that connects her growth as a Muslim female to her experience as a young African-American during the Civil Rights era. The incomparable Amina Wadud offers an excellent article on racial tensions between immigrant and indigenous Muslims, while Marcia Hermansen pens the volume’s bravest and most honest contribution, addressing the increasing conservatism of her American Muslim students-a topic previously not discussed outside the Muslim community. This collection is recommended for those who yearn for realistic information about Muslims, and for Muslims who are disgruntled with current Islamic leadership.
Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information, Inc.
Re: Curing the symptoms
but the funny thing you see the pictures of people with sabres and placards, the placards carry the name of the tribe where the demonstrators are from. What does that tell you other than tribe agrandisement and wanting to be seen as supportive of the regime, rather than just Qataris against terrorism?
This is very typical of how things are in this part of the world. Tribal first, everything else second.
Re: Curing the symptoms
good news!
Re: Curing the symptoms
As much as I would love it, I *know* that I won’t stand a cat’s chance in hell!
thanks for the support though, much appreciated.
Re(2): Curing the symptoms
PA: LOCAL MOSQUE OPENS TO ALL, NOT JUST MUSLIMS
Kristin Wilson, The Sentinel, 3/20/05
<http://www.cumberlink.com/articles/2005/03/20/news/news02.txt>
For just over a year, The Peace Center, a mosque carved out of a North Middleton Township home has provided a place of worship and community to Muslims in south-central Pennsylvania. For the 20 to 30 families who use the mosque, it is a God-send.
“Before we could not worship here at all,” says Williams.
The Peace Center opened in 2004. Before that “you’d have to go to Harrisburg,” explains Aishah’s husband, Mike Williams.
“And that you can’t do every day. It’s highly desirable to pray five times a day. It’s hard to describe the worth” of having a place where prayers can be offered, he says.
More than a place to pray
But The Peace Center is so much more than a place to pray.
“We’re open to everybody, not just Muslims,” explains Williams. “We want to foster communication and contact. We’re hoping to have some classes, like Islamic 101-type classes…
Re(4): Curing the symptoms
Malik,
[quote]How many of those bombings target peopel trying to join the Iraqi military or police? A large chunk of them. Thousands of such people were shot by allied forces during and after WW2, how is this any different?
[/quote]
Malik, the majority of Iraqis do not support the killing of their police/troops, or their army/police recruits. Most see the “resistance” as terrorism, not resistance. 60% of Iraqis showed up at the polls, proving that the majority want change through the political process, not violence. There have been protests outside the Jordanian embassy. A few Baathist partisans are not speaking for the majority of Iraqis.
[quote]this is why thousands of Iraqi civilians have been killed by the US forces since the end of the war. [/quote]
Thousands of civilians since the end of the war, huh? A reference please?
-Aliandra
Re(8): Curing the symptoms
[quote]For a self proclaimed professor you sure do have some issues with reding comprehension. The religion in Asia is much different, as are the cultures, when one compares them to the Middle East and the Islamic world. Cookie cutter solutions wont work here. I know it is hard for you to understand that as it is not a “black and white” situation. [/quote]
I love the personal attack, as well as the blanket statement without any backup whatsoever.
Japan was in no way culturally similar to the US before WW II. During the aftermath, the Japanese took western Methods and Concepts and applied them successfully without appreciably changing the basic standard of their culture.
Of course, Shintoism and Zen Buddhism didn’t have such a fatal reaction to Bid’ah. Sad, but true – if you want to modernise a religion, you need to introduce innovation – at least in the sense of new interpretation and more open society.
Re(8): Curing the symptoms
Mohammad blinding people with hot irons; Hadith vol. 1, no. 234
Re(5): Curing the symptoms
Posted “Malik, the majority of Iraqis do not support the killing of their police/troops, or their army/police recruits. Most see the “resistance” as terrorism, not resistance. 60% of Iraqis showed up at the polls, proving that the majority want change through the political process, not violence. There have been protests outside the Jordanian embassy. A few Baathist partisans are not speaking for the majority of Iraqis. ”
“A few Baathist partisans”? You think that is the sum total of the insurgency? I would love to know where you get your ideas from. My impression is that a good section of the populace supports the insurgency. Hint, historically insurgencies cannot survive without the passive and active support of a good percentage of the population. The insurgents come from many backgrounds, not just Baathists. There are Islamic extremists, Baathists, nationalists, you name it. 60% of the Iraqis did not show up at the polls, close to 60% of the Iraqis registered to vote showed up. This is a huge difference. As long as there are foreign troops in Iraq there will be an insurgency. The only section of the population that has not had some sort of violent response to the occupation are the Kurds, and even that can be argued with the acts by Ansar al Islam, a Kurdish group. The only reason the Shi’a didnt rise up in greater numbers is because they knew, via their population, they were going to win anyway.
Posted “Thousands of civilians since the end of the war, huh? A reference please? ”
Sad that it is so hard to find this information. One of the reasons is that the US feels no need to keep track of how many Iraqis die. They only keep track of Americans killed.
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/press/
Month
Reported Deaths
(min-max)
Separate Reported Incidents
May 2003 453-497 June 2003 510-538 July 2003 559-595 August 2003 591-621 September 2003 495-509 October 2003 430-450 November 2003 408-430 December 2003 474-491 January 2004 512-528 February 2004 530-545 March 2004 887-918 7 April 2004 1137-1193 May 2004 216-236 June 2004 307-338 July 2004 273-282 August 2004 365-407 8 September 2004 464-504 October 2004 356-376 November 2004 951-1076 December 2004 395-414 January 2005 421-447 February 2005 554-606
Re(8): Curing the symptoms
[quote]You offer blanket condemnations, you take the side and the role of the Islamic extremists, and when a Muslim proposes reformation you scream that it isnt possible. There is nothing free and open about your arguement. You are dictatorial, you have no room for differing opinions, and you think that you have the corner on truth.[/quote]
From our discussions here, I can see that you are absolutely impervious to understanding what I’m getting at.
I have repeatedly tried, through theology and rationality, through taking the side of the extremists on both sides, to get you to defend your religion and your ‘reformation’ ideals for it.
And what have I gotten in response? ‘Tu Quoque
Re(8): Curing the symptoms
From the primary Biography of Mohammed
A poetess by the name of Asmaa bint Marwan wrote the lines quoted.
Ishaq: 676 “‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?’ [b]Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’[/b] Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, [b]Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.’[/b] Umayr said. ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?’ [b]‘No,’ the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.’[/b]�
Re(6): Curing the symptoms
[quote] close to 60% of the Iraqis registered to vote showed up. This is a huge difference. As long as there are foreign troops in Iraq there will be an insurgency.[/quote]
It still indicates that 60% want a political process, not violence.
[quote] As long as there are foreign troops in Iraq there will be an insurgency.[/quote]
The insurgency is lobbing bombs at funeral processions and other civilian gatherings. That has nothing to do with foreign troops.
All your link tells me is the number of Iraqi civilians dead. It does not say they were killed by coalition forces. And to quote directly from your link “Because the researchers did not ask relatives whether the male deaths were military or civilian the civilian proportion in the sample is unknown�.
If most of the dead are males under age 40, then we are not talking about civilians.
-Aliandra
Re(4): Curing the symptoms
[quote]I think there are precious few American civilians in Iraq. 99% of Americans in Iraq are active members of the occupation, hence they are not civilians.[/quote]
Last I checked, the occupation was legally over. Iraq has elected its government and can ask the Americans to leave at any time.
But I love how you blanket 99% as active occupiers. Nick Berg wasn’t an occupier.
[quote]
I have missed the condemnations of President Bush or any major religious leader in the US of the thousands of innocent Iraqis killed by the USA in almost exactly the same circumstances. [/quote]
I don’t see Bush -targeting- civilians. Therein lies the rub. Blowing up a funeral parade and then celebrating the perpetrator’s martyrdom is not acceptable. I think you have your wires inexplicably crossed, Malik.
Re(9): Curing the symptoms
Posted “From our discussions here, I can see that you are absolutely impervious to understanding what I’m getting at. ”
I get exactly what you are trying to say, I am telling you it is absolute rubbish based on fantasy.
Posted “I have repeatedly tried, through theology and rationality, through taking the side of the extremists on both sides, to get you to defend your religion and your ‘reformation’ ideals for it.”
No, you have not. You have simply repeated, over and over again, that Islam cannot be reformed. Your solution is the end of Islam.
Posted “And what have I gotten in response? ‘Tu Quoque
Re(1): Curing the symptoms
If you define the problem as “sending people to fight in Afghanistan” no there really was nothing inherently wrong with that. That’s what Afghanistan was made for. If it wasn’t those particular people at that particular time, it was going to be someone else at someo other point.
The problem was giving them unlimited arms and very little supervision. Sort of like Halliburton…
Re(7): Curing the symptoms
Posted “It still indicates that 60% want a political process, not violence. ”
It indicates that 60% of the registered voters, somewhere around 40% of the population, thinks they want to decide who to lead them. It isnt an endorsement or repudiation of violence or the insurgency. I read interviews with Iraqis who said they voted and supported the insurgency. There is no contradiction. They want to chose who leads them and they want foreign troops out of their country.
Posted “The insurgency is lobbing bombs at funeral processions and other civilian gatherings. That has nothing to do with foreign troops.”
Some are, some are not. If you think the insurgency is so united, you are wrong. It has many dimensions, some do what you say, others dont. They all having differing goals as well.
Posted “All your link tells me is the number of Iraqi civilians dead. It does not say they were killed by coalition forces. And to quote directly from your link “Because the researchers did not ask relatives whether the male deaths were military or civilian the civilian proportion in the sample is unknownâ€?. ”
Yes, then it would seem your issue is with the US military. They have refused, since the begining of the war, to keep track of the people they kill.
Posted “If most of the dead are males under age 40, then we are not talking about civilians.”
If? Not very scietific this “if”. The fact is you asked me to prove that thousands have died since the end of the invasion. I did so.
Re(5): Curing the symptoms
Posted “Last I checked, the occupation was legally over. Iraq has elected its government and can ask the Americans to leave at any time.”
You are funny. The elected government will rely 100% on the Americans to keep them in power. Ask them to leave? Not any time soon. Besides, you think if the Iraqis asked the US to leave by June they would? Give me a break.
Posted “But I love how you blanket 99% as active occupiers. Nick Berg wasn’t an occupier.”
If he was there to work for the occupation forces, he is a part of the occupation.
Posted “I don’t see Bush -targeting- civilians. Therein lies the rub. Blowing up a funeral parade and then celebrating the perpetrator’s martyrdom is not acceptable. I think you have your wires inexplicably crossed, Malik. ”
Not at all. Bush doesnt target civilians, you would have to think about them to target them. Kind of like the village in Vietnam that was “destroyed to save it”. Bush doesnt target civilians because they dont enter into his calculations. He doesnt care about them at all. The invasion of Iraq was done for many reasons, none of which were to better the Iraqi people, and the Iraqi people still do not play into the equation here. Besides, the supposition is that I support suicide attacks for whatever reason. As a Muslim I cannot support suicide, for whatever cause.
SAW
Anyone,
[quote]of the Prophet (SAW), [/quote]
What does SAW mean? I see it written here a lot.
Aliandra
Re: SAW
Salla Allah aliyhi Wa Sallam is how you would pronounce it. It means “May Allah Bless Him” (not exact translation, but close enough) and is only used after the Prophet’s mention or name (SAW). A mark of respect for the Prophet and also a prayer over his soul at the same time.
Re: SAW
Posted “What does SAW mean? I see it written here a lot. ”
SaAllahu Alayhi Wasalaam, please forgive the transliteration. It is Arabic for “May of the Peace and Blessings of Allah Be Upon Him”. It is often said after using the name of Mohammed (SAW) or another Prophet. It is a sign of respect. Of course it isnt that much different than what Muslims say to each other when they greet. “Asalaamu Alaykum”.
Re(8): Curing the symptoms
[quote]Yes, then it would seem your issue is with the US military. They have refused, since the begining of the war, to keep track of the people they kill. [/quote]
The US military isn’t stopping others from tracking deaths.
[quote]Some are, some are not. If you think the insurgency is so united, you are wrong. It has many dimensions, some do what you say, others dont. They all having differing goals as well. [/quote]
Then only a part of the insurgency is pissed off at occupation. Originally, you said that as long as their was an occupation there would be an insurgency. That is not true. The troops may leave and the insurgency may continue.
[quote]If? Not very scietific this “if”. The fact is you asked me to prove that thousands have died since the end of the invasion. I did so. [/quote]
You did not prove they were all civilians. You did not prove they were all killed by coalition forces. You began the debate by insisting they were.
[quote]I read interviews with Iraqis who said they voted and supported the insurgency. There is no contradiction. They want to chose who leads them and they want foreign troops out of their country. [/quote]
And I’ve read interviews with Iraqis who said they did not support the insurgency. Of course all Iraqis want foreign troops out of the country. No one wants foreign armies in their land. The US wants to get out as soon as possible. The US doesn’t want its forces staying in this powderkeg, regardless of what you think.
-Aliandra
Re(9): Curing the symptoms
Posted “The US military isn’t stopping others from tracking deaths. ”
You do not think the US military should at least count the people it kills? It has in past wars, why not this one?
Posted “Then only a part of the insurgency is pissed off at occupation. Originally, you said that as long as their was an occupation there would be an insurgency. That is not true. The troops may leave and the insurgency may continue. ”
All of the people involved in the insurgency want to see it end. The difference is what they want to see happen after the insurgency. It is likely that there will be an insurgency after the occupation ends. It all depends on a number of factors. If things are going well for all sectors of the community it wouldnt last long. An insurgency must be able to count on a pretty large section of public support.
Posted “You did not prove they were all civilians. You did not prove they were all killed by coalition forces. You began the debate by insisting they were.”
My claim was the thousands had died since the end of the invasion. I proved this claim.
Posted “And I’ve read interviews with Iraqis who said they did not support the insurgency. Of course all Iraqis want foreign troops out of the country. No one wants foreign armies in their land. The US wants to get out as soon as possible. The US doesn’t want its forces staying in this powderkeg, regardless of what you think.”
Finally you understand what I have been saying. Iraqi opinion is very diverse and complex. You cannot easily generalise when talking about it. As to what the US wants, I think the fact that it is building its biggest embassy in the world right there in Baghdad says more than I can. The fact that, despite their claims, the US is building military bases with permanent infrastructure says more than I can.
Re(10): Curing the symptoms
Yes, but the problem is, if I disagree with you and agree with the premise, my blood would be forfeit and whoever kills me is assured of Heaven.
The sad thing is that any twit with a turban can produce that fatwa and all it needs is one of the followers to action it.
I just hope and pray that this response itself won’t land me in dire straits, because like a lot of people, I think questioning is healthy and would produce stronger Muslims.
Re(4): Curing the symptoms
Malik,
[quote]I see, so the solution to the ethnic cleansing commited by the Israelis is that the Palestinians and the Arabs should just accept it and get used to it?[/quote]
There wasn’t too much protestation from Arabs when Kuwait expelled some 300,000 Palestinian in 1990. Except for Jordan and Lebanon, Arab countries find it acceptable not to offer Palestinians asylum. If the middle-east does indeed care about the welfare of Palestinians, they should put their money where their mouth is.
As it is, Palestinians get the short side of the stick everywhere.
Aliandra
Re(10): Curing the symptoms
[quote]think the fact that it is building its biggest embassy in the world right there in Baghdad says more than I can. The fact that, despite their claims, the US is building military bases with permanent infrastructure says more than I can. [/quote]
Not sure what you are claiming. Real estate and labor are very cheap there.
Aliandra
Re(2): Curing the symptoms
Malik: “I dont think this is really the case anymore. More and more people are seeing that it begin and ends at home. This doesnt excuse US actions in the area, support for the occupation of Palestine, support for murderous dictators, but that is only worth so much.”
This is a good thing that Al Jazeera has done for the region. It let people see Muslims choose to vote in a contested election, rather than to confirm a pre-chosen candidate. It let people see that Muslims could actually be leaders in a representative government in Iraq. It let people see that American soldiers would let people protest (peacefully) against them, and that nobody got arrested or killed for doing it. And it let people see that murderous thugs and terrorists got killed. Along with the reaction to the tsunami, in which the US and Australia carried all the heavy weight and organizations like the UN pretended to be important, and Saudi Arabia waited a month to send too little, too late to its Wahhabi proselytes in Indonesia, Al Jazeera’s admittedly biased coverage revealed the nature of the freedom that the USA truly wishes to spread through the region. Though war is never a happy occasion, the result, the overthrow of Saddam Hussein was good. Though plenty of mistakes were made, America has generously sent its men and women to spill their blood in Iraq, and generously spent its money to rebuild the country. And in the meantime the price of oil has gone up, the world has gossipped and sniped, and America has suffered because of its stand.
On the subject of Palestine, if every single Muslim country around Israel had volunteered to settle and integrate Palestinians into its citizenry, if the thuggish Grand Mufti of Jerusalem had not been an enthusiastic Nazi collaborator, recruiter, and notorious suck-up to Hitler, if Iranian Hizbullah, Syrian Baathists and PLO hadn’t started a civil war in Lebanon to scuttle the Lebanese attempt to assimilate Palestinians, or if the Petro-Dictatorships had been allowed to collapse because of their failed policies instead of being propped up by the price of oil, then there would be no Palestinian question anymore. Palestinians would be as integrated and happy as the German speakers of French Alsace-Lorraine (stripped out of Nazi Germany by France after WWII). If the Palestinian and other Arabs would drop the Jew-baiting, then after this generation of haters dies off both sides could live in peace with each other and tear down the stupid fence.
–Solomon Grundy
Re(9): Curing the symptoms
Posted “From the primary Biography of Mohammed”
Primary? Really? Who designated this the primary biography? Has a Pope of Islam just been elected? Give me a break. Site refences. No page number? No publisher?
Re(11): Curing the symptoms
Posted “Yes, but the problem is, if I disagree with you and agree with the premise, my blood would be forfeit and whoever kills me is assured of Heaven. ”
I do not think that is proper within Islamic teachings. This is the whole point, we do not need to destory Islam, we need to reevaluate it according to modern needs and ideas. Ijtihad, this is what it is all about. Progressive, Modern Muslims must make a stand against the idea that everyone has a right to takfir. Islam, historically, has been very open to different ideas and opinions. The advent of the “Wahabi” sect, and is coopting the Salafee sect is what has changed all of this. Time for us middle of the road Muslims to change this. This is exactly what I am talking about. No need to elimate Islam, as Muslims it is up to US to change ourselves and get to where we need to be.
Posted “The sad thing is that any twit with a turban can produce that fatwa and all it needs is one of the followers to action it.”
One of the major problems with Islam today is that its followers have stopped thinking for themselves and have become completely complacent. What is needed is a return to the respect for education, knowledge and debate that once used to the hallmark of Islamic civilisation.
Posted “I just hope and pray that this response itself won’t land me in dire straits, because like a lot of people, I think questioning is healthy and would produce stronger Muslims.”
I agree. As a matter of fact, I propse without questioning, learning and exploring Islam will implode. Like you I feel Islam will only benefit by opening up. That is where Ethan goes wrong. He thinks Islam will wither under healthy questioning and reformation, you and I think it will thrive!
Re(11): Curing the symptoms
Posted “Not sure what you are claiming. Real estate and labor are very cheap there. ”
This has nothing to do with land and labor. The US plans to use its Embassy in Baghdad as it center of operations for intelligence and spywork in the Middle East. This is the very same reason why the US, who “doesnt plan to keep military bases in Iraqi”, is building many such bases as we speak.
Re(9): Curing the symptoms
Posted “Mohammad blinding people with hot irons; Hadith vol. 1, no. 234 ”
It is clear you have no idea how the science of Hadith works. Who was this Hadith recorded by? From what book did you get it from? Is it an agreed upon Hadith? If not, what schools support the Hadith and which ones do not, and based on what?
There are all sorts of nonsense out there, much of it put out to descredit Islam.
Curing the symptoms
Wow…what a discussion.
Just a note to throw in my 2 cents.
Malik…I think Islam can be moderated but I think there is a fundamental problem. EVERY religion has fundamentalists who seek a strict interpretation of scripture. This is primarily because portions of all populations have problems and need to have something externally control them. In most religions of the world..this is not a problem. Their fundamentalists may be a little rigid and perhaps a litle odd…but here’s the problem…
The Koran as it is written will always create fundamentalists who are more of a problem due to its complexity and the number of references that SEEM at first glance, to be violent and intolerant…Hopefully, someday, that number will be small, but, sadly, it may always be more than in other religions.
And…I do not see any justification for the violence in Iraq now. They are killing Iraqis.
Re: Curing the symptoms
Posted “Malik…I think Islam can be moderated but I think there is a fundamental problem. EVERY religion has fundamentalists who seek a strict interpretation of scripture.”
Indeed, and all religions have done a rather good job of marginalising them.
Posted “The Koran as it is written will always create fundamentalists who are more of a problem due to its complexity and the number of references that SEEM at first glance, to be violent and intolerant…Hopefully, someday, that number will be small, but, sadly, it may always be more than in other religions. ”
As opposed to the portions in the Old Testament, much more numerous and inflamatory, that call for the genocide of whole races of people? The verses that demand every man woman and child surrender or the whole city will be killed, down to the infants and animals?
I dont buy the idea that Islam, or its texts are any more violent than any others. What I do believe is that there is a malais in the Islam world, and in the religion itself, that is keeping the countries and the peoples backwards. There needs to be an internal solution to this. As to more Muslim being violent than others, I dont buy that either. Their cultures, some of them, might be, but the religion is not. I can go to almost any city in the Middle East and keep my doors unlocked without fear. This is not so in the West.
What is driving the violence and the issues now is not religion so much as it is political. If the Middle East were a Christian or Hindu area it would still be violent because the roots of the violence in the area are not religious, they are political and economic.
Curing the symptoms
This is from Mike in the US,
Malik, if someone invades another country in order to destroy a dictator, gives billions of dollars and does not disrupt an election that determines the fate of the country, will they still be “classified” as invaders? If Iraq belongs to Saddam in 1999 and it belongs to Iraqis in 2005 what would the prophet say about that? If another muslim detonates himself around a group of muslims trying to help and defend their family and friends is it justified? “An occupation” do you really think anyone in Iraq wants to be there, or that we as a country(US) benifit from the war?
I will respect your religious beliefs, but you cannot base all of your decisions on a book written a few hundered years ago, even if it tells you to. (Disclaimer: the previous comment is not meant to demean anyones faith wither they are Jewish, Christian, Hindi or Muslim etc…)
Re(1): Curing the symptoms
[quote]Posted “Malik…I think Islam can be moderated but I think there is a fundamental problem. EVERY religion has fundamentalists who seek a strict interpretation of scripture.”
Malik: Indeed, and all religions have done a rather good job of marginalising them. [/quote]
Not all. Saudi Arabia and its Wahhabis feature them.
[quote]Posted “The Koran as it is written will always create fundamentalists who are more of a problem due to its complexity and the number of references that SEEM at first glance, to be violent and intolerant…Hopefully, someday, that number will be small, but, sadly, it may always be more than in other religions. ”
Malik: As opposed to the portions in the Old Testament, much more numerous and inflamatory, that call for the genocide of whole races of people? The verses that demand every man woman and child surrender or the whole city will be killed, down to the infants and animals? [/quote]
How many religious warriors are slaughtering people to impose their Old Testament interpretation on the world? Who exactly is the Old Testament Bin Laden or Zarqawi?
[quote]Malik: I dont buy the idea that Islam, or its texts are any more violent than any others. What I do believe is that there is a malais in the Islam world, and in the religion itself, that is keeping the countries and the peoples backwards. [/quote]
The backwardness of the Islamic world is the product of Islam, which believed all the answers were in the Koran so there was no need to listen to the dar al harb, even declaring fatwa after fatwa prohibiting such communication. While the rest of the world talked and built on each other’s accomplishments, the Muslim world isolated itself out of pride and ignorance and sat still. Then it slowly woke up to discover that the infidels had pulled ahead, way ahead, and left them in the dust. Virtually every Western improvement in the Middle East has been opposed by idiot Islamic clergy. It’s Islam that has hobbled the progress of the Middle East. It can only progress to the extent that the Islamic stranglehold on the culture is released or thrown off.
Steve
Re(6): Curing the symptoms
[quote]Malik: It is unrealistic to expect a “one size fits all” solution to work in the Islamic world or in the Middle East. It just wont work. If you know the history of the area it would be clear. The populations of the areas are not the same as the Asian populations, there is religion in the mix, which wasnt the case in Asia. [/quote]
It would be hard to think of a less promising prospect for a liberal democracy than Tojo’s Japan with its suicidal cult of emperor worship. Yet, it worked.
Nothing succeeds like success. If the secular Arab states start sporting an attractive lifestyle that features free speech, free markets, and free minds, than the mad mullahs will find their mosques empty of potential recruits for their incompetent and hateful theocracy. Everyone with any sense is gonna want a slice of that democracy pie.
[quote]Malik: Muslims and Muslim countries must find their own way. Contrary to what people think, they were on the way before 9/11. These things dont happen over night. Actions since 9/11 have sometimes helped this movement, sometimes hindered it. [/quote]
Time’s up for Muslims finding their own way. Perhaps a few dilettantes from the Westernized elites were talking up democracy, but there was no genuine popular impulse in the Middle East to reform their governments or religion. The momentum was all toward retrenchment in both. The increasing number of connections with the Middle East led to their barbarians spilling out into our civilization and wreaking mindless havoc in greater and greater measure. We can’t wait for Muslims to find their own way after the Sep 11 attack and with their acquisition of WMDs. We need to grab them by the collars and drag them kicking and screaming into the modern world.
This manyana attitude toward change is part of the problem. Japan and Germany were converted from racist tyrannies into liberal democracies fairly rapidly. Iraq had its first real election two years after the US invasion. Changes to governments can indeed be made rapidly. The only thing stopping the Middle East from thriving in change is a dysfunctional culture. They could have made their own democracy had they been so inclined. It’s like Aristophanes’ explanation of why birds fly: They can because they think they can.
Steve
Re(6): Curing the symptoms
[quote]Malik: Again, context is everything. If you dont accept the idea that somethings were meant for a certain time and situation, and that other things were not, I cannot help you. I can tell you that the vast majority of Muslims think it so, that is what matters. All religions have portions that arent “very nice”. The question is how do they deal with those issues. [/quote]
So then, in your view, some passages of the Koran have been nullified by time? I thought the Koran was the voice of Allah, direct and undiluted. Since Allah knows all, what difference would time and subsequent events mean? Surely, Allah would have taken all that into account, right? How is that you think some of those pages of the Koran are no longer applicable?
From my perspective, the assertion that the Koran is infallible sets up a mindset of intolerance that propagates through the rest of the religion. Of course, you are right that the progress of time renders some Muslim practices irrelevant. There was good reason (trichinosis) in Mohammed’s time to forbid consumption of pork, but modern technology makes that unnecessary now. The mortality of males in the first milennium probably made polygamy necessary, but medical and nutritional advances make it an archaic practice now. And so on.
However, you are arguing against the fundamentals of your own religion to make your case.
Steve
Re(2): Curing the symptoms
[quote]Muslims, especially from the Middle East, are well known for their mathmatic and engineering skills. There is no reason why, instead of leaving for more money, these same people cannot be encouraged to stay at home and build their own countries. [/quote]
It’s not enough these days just to have good “skills”. To develop dynamic economies, you need a dynamic and innovative culture, new ideas sparking in every direction, loads of creativity and energy. Think Japan or China. I just don’t see anything like that anywhere in the Muslim world, nevermind the ME. It’s not something that’s going to happen in societies still hugely dominated by what is arguably the most prescriptive religion on earth.
Re(11): Curing the symptoms
[quote]The sad thing is that any twit with a turban can produce that fatwa and all it needs is one of the followers to action it.[/quote]
Anonymous because this computer will not let me log in for some reason.
Mahmood ,
I do hope that your words will not be looked upon as a death sentence. There are far too many of them in your part of the world.
To answer Malik’s thoughts:
Free and open inquiry is a good thing. The problem lies with those who will kill the inquirers! As Mahmood said, a twit in a turban can order his death and theologically grant the perpetrator heaven. The first step to changing this attitude is to somehow make this and all such decrees like it to be theologically unsound.
The question is -HOW-.
You said ‘this is not in line with Islam’ in your reply. How is it not in line with Islam? I’m not even going to take the extremist angle here – I just want you to explain to me how it is Islamically justifiable to not kill a critic of Islam, but instead listen to his or her ideas and grow from them. Can the Koran accept criticism? Can the Sunnah be changed through outside criticism? Can the fundamentals of your faith be challenged as Christianity has been, and grow from that? Or is the only way forward to find oneself being flung back fundamentalistically to the 7th century?
–Ethan
Re(10): Curing the symptoms
Malik,
The book is: “Sirat Rasul Allah” by one: Moahmmed bin Ishaq. Though the book no longer survives, there are a multitude of quotes from the text that exist. Tabari quotes extensively from it.
Perhaps, you should read up on your Islamic history. Start here:
Al-Rawandi, I.M. [i]Origins of Islam: A Critical Look at the Sources[/i]. Prometheus Books (2000)
Re(6): Curing the symptoms
[quote]If he was there to work for the occupation forces, he is a part of the occupation.[/quote]
Wow.
An independent contractor working to build cell phone towers and get business contracts for his company is now part of the ‘occupation’.
Way to go Malik. Just tie a turban around your head.
[quote]Bush doesnt target civilians, you would have to think about them to target them.[/quote]
Good to know that the insurgency thinks so much about the civilian population of Iraq.
Re(6): Curing the symptoms
[quote]Malik on Nick Berg: If he was there to work for the occupation forces, he is a part of the occupation. [/quote]
He was freelancing, Malik, not part of any occupation force. He was trying to hook up with Iraqis to repair communications towers, his trade. That’s the reason why he was so easy to catch and kill. He was flying solo.
[quote]Posted “I don’t see Bush -targeting- civilians. Therein lies the rub. Blowing up a funeral parade and then celebrating the perpetrator’s martyrdom is not acceptable. I think you have your wires inexplicably crossed, Malik. ”
Malik: Not at all. Bush doesnt target civilians, you would have to think about them to target them. Kind of like the village in Vietnam that was “destroyed to save it”. Bush doesnt target civilians because they dont enter into his calculations. He doesnt care about them at all. The invasion of Iraq was done for many reasons, none of which were to better the Iraqi people, and the Iraqi people still do not play into the equation here. Besides, the supposition is that I support suicide attacks for whatever reason. As a Muslim I cannot support suicide, for whatever cause.[/quote]
If Bush wasn’t thinking about civilians, how did that election happen? Was that some sort of accident that happenned while Bush was snoozing? Each one of those purple Iraqi fingers is part of the Big Equation. So are the Iraqi brigades, some sixty of them, which are taking over their own defense and wreaking a fair amount of damage on the Baathists and foreign jihadis. The Iraqi jurists preparing the case against Saddam Hussein play into the equation, too. One of them was just assassinated along with his son, but these Iraqi judges don’t scare worth a damn.
The majority of the population figures into the equation by informing on the insurgents, of whom as many as a hundred per day are being captured and stuffed into Abu Ghraib. Even some Sunnis are ratting out the insurgents. And of course, there are the hundreds of millions of bucks of civil affairs projects being implemented all over Iraq, more proof of concern of America for ordinary Iraqis. In fact, now that the sewers and electricity and trash pickup have been implemented (notice I did not say restored) in Sadr City, insurgent attacks have fallen off there to just about zilch.
One of the many reasons we invaded Iraq was to free the Iraqis for a better life, a reason that was plainly and publicly stated by Bush before we went in. It just doesn’t get any plainer than this. We said we would free the Iraqis and did so. We said we would promote democracy there and did so.
If you want to see an occupation where the occupiers don’t give a damn about the people, take a close look at Iraq’s occupation of Kuwait and compare the differences. In Iraqi Kuwait, a state of fear was imposed by Saddam’s reign of terror. There were no elections in occupied Kuwait under Saddam. In Lebanon, the Syrian occupiers rule by brute force and a network of spies and informers. Here is the difference: When an Arab army occupies your land, you lose your future. When the US army occupies your land, you gain your future.
Steve
PS. Iraq is not Vietnam. The Baathists are not NVA. The foreign jihadis are not Viet Cong.
Curing the symptoms
Thank you Malik and Steve.
Interesting responses. I shall give some more time to my thoughts on this.
Re(4): Curing the symptoms
[quote]Malik: I see, so the solution to the ethnic cleansing commited by the Israelis …[/quote]
Malik, the population of Palestinians is continuously growing, fed by UN agencies. The Palestinians boast that they will eventually overwhelm Israel with their numbers. By contrast, with ethnic cleansing, the victim population ceases to exist. If the Israelis are ethnically cleansing the Palestinians, they are certainly doing so incompetently.
It is this kind of wild talk that negates the credibility of pro-Palestinian arguments.
Steve
Re(7): Curing the symptoms
Steve writes “So then, in your view, some passages of the Koran have been nullified by time? I thought the Koran was the voice of Allah, direct and undiluted.”
Indeed it is. Some portions of The Qur’an were meant to address specific situations and a specific time, this does nothing to affect the validity of the whole message. Kind of like you telling your daughter she cannot go out and play today. Does that mean because you had decided that in that specific case it was best for her not to go out and play that she can never go out and play? or that if you let her play in the future, at a different time and circumstances, that you are somehow lessor? You’ll find many religions have such things. As a matter of fact, Jews were told, and shown, to murder whole races of people when they stand in their way. Do you think Jews still think this to be a valid teaching, applicable at all times, even today?
Posted ” Of course, you are right that the progress of time renders some Muslim practices irrelevant. There was good reason (trichinosis) in Mohammed’s time to forbid consumption of pork, but modern technology makes that unnecessary now.”
You are working under the assumption that health was the reason for the restriction. This isnt the case.
Posted ” The mortality of males in the first milennium probably made polygamy necessary, but medical and nutritional advances make it an archaic practice now. And so on. ”
Which is why God said take only more than one wife when you can do so properly and for the right reasons. This is why, I think in a modern context, it is almost always undeeded. Some places it might be needed now due to the slaughter of Muslim men in places like Bosnia and Chechnya.
Posted “However, you are arguing against the fundamentals of your own religion to make your case. ”
You, again, obviously do not have a good idea about Islam then. I am aruging for a proper viewing of portions of belief in Islam. I am not arguing against anything. Everything must be seen in the proper context.
Re(6): Curing the symptoms
[quote]The invasion of Iraq was done for many reasons, none of which were to better the Iraqi people, and the Iraqi people still do not play into the equation here.[/quote]
According to your logic I guess the Iraqi people are worse off now than before.
[quote]If he was there to work for the occupation forces, he is a part of the occupation.[/quote]
Ah then apparently in your view it was ok to kill him.
You really need to take a couple of steps back and some time to smell the flowers.
billT
Re: Curing the symptoms
Posted “Malik, if someone invades another country in order to destroy a dictator, gives billions of dollars and does not disrupt an election that determines the fate of the country, will they still be “classified” as invaders?”
Read your own question. “If someone invades”. Anyone who invades, no matter the reason, is an “invader”. I think you and I have a fundamental disagree as to why the US invaded Iraq and what their long term goals are.
Posted “If Iraq belongs to Saddam in 1999 and it belongs to Iraqis in 2005 what would the prophet say about that?”
I would presume to speak for the Prophet(SAW). I do not think that Iraq belongs to the Iraqis. I think it belongs to some of them. Do I view the overall situation in Iraq as better than under Saddam Hussein? Sure! Do I think the US would have been better off supporting a popular uprising in the nation insteadof invading it? You bet! The orginal Bush offered to support the Iraqis if they tried to overthrow Hussein. They tried, the US left them to die. Bush offered no support and thousands died. As to what the future hold for Iraq, only God knows. It could be that Saddam was better if civil war breaks out and hundreds of thousands die. I personally hope for the best even if the US invasion had nothing to do with freeing the Iraqi people. Sometimes unitended things have good outcomes.
Posted “I will respect your religious beliefs, but you cannot base all of your decisions on a book written a few hundered years ago, even if it tells you to. (Disclaimer: the previous comment is not meant to demean anyones faith wither they are Jewish, Christian, Hindi or Muslim etc…) ”
I do not base everything on “a book”. I take many things into account. However, as a Muslim, The Qur’an is the most important thing in my life. I know it does not talk about everything, nor does it preclude me from using my own head.
Re(3): Curing the symptoms
Posted “First of all, I see no difference between bombing Iraqi/American -civilians- and bombing Qatari -civilians-. ”
Nor do I. As a Muslim I condemn the targeting of civilians in any country. I also support the right of citizens of nations to resist, in a legal manner, the occupation of their country. Palestinians, Iraqis and Chechans have the right to resist occupation. They do not have a right to attack civilians.
Posted “Maybe you haven’t noticed, Malik – 9 out of 10 major bombings in Iraq target civilians. Good to know that you support the ‘resistance’. What a noble cause it is. ”
Things are not so black and white Ethan. How many of those bombings target peopel trying to join the Iraqi military or police? A large chunk of them. You are aware of the fact that partisans in France, Russia, and other areas under occupation killed people for the same thing right? You are aware that the US supported many of these groups with arms and cash yes? It is my contention that when you seek to join the military or police you are no longer a civilian. Thousands of such people were shot by allied forces during and after WW2, how is this any different?
Posted “As for Qaradawi, He has lived in Qatar since 1961. Perhaps you didn’t notice Mahmood’s recent post about his theology.”
Yes, but he is Egyptian, his homeland is Egypt.
Posted “I refer you to his very famous fatwa: “El-amalijat al-istishadiya a’zam suwar al-jihad” – Martyr operations are the highest form of Jihad, published 3 Oct 2001, and can be found here: http://www.qaradawi.net/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=1461&version=1&t emplate_id=130&parent_id=17 ”
Okay, where does this say one can kill civilians?
Posted “He has supported the killing of American civilians in Iraq, ”
I think there are precious few American civilians in Iraq. 99% of Americans in Iraq are active members of the occupation, hence they are not civilians. Certainly you dont have a problem with these same types of people killed by partisans in Europe in the 1940s did you?
Posted “and does not condemn the indescriminate slaughter of Iraqi civilians if they happen to be in a targeted area.”
I have missed the condemnations of President Bush or any major religious leader in the US of the thousands of innocent Iraqis killed by the USA in almost exactly the same circumstances. If the US is trying to killed Iraqi insurgents you think they let this get in the way? Of course not, this is why thousands of Iraqi civilians have been killed by the US forces since the end of the war.
Posted “In short, I find your support for this heathen barbarian to be reprehensible.”
I do not support him at all. I just think you misrepresent what he has said, and I think you ignore the fact that YOUR government does the same things you condemn him for.
Re(1): Curing the symptoms
Posted “Long gone – 500 years dead. Muslims would do well to stop imagining that this so-called “Golden Age” can be recovered. It can’t – no more than the lost civilisations of the Mayans and Aztecs can be recovered. Islamic civilisation reached its zenith 500+ years ago and it’s time is long passed. ”
I agree in the fact that the Islamic world will never dominate the world, but I think the Muslim would can and should take its part along side with the modern world. Muslims, especially from the Middle East, are well known for their mathmatic and engineering skills. There is no reason why, instead of leaving for more money, these same people cannot be encouraged to stay at home and build their own countries.
Re(7): Curing the symptoms
Posted “I’m still waiting for the context.
I’m also taking umbrage at ‘most Muslims’. Everything I read implies the opposite. ”
I have given it to you. You refuse to accept it. During the begining years of Islam the religion was in a fight for its very life. Hence, things needed to be done that would not need to be done today. As to your problem with “most Muslims” I suggest your problem is two fold. First you obviously are VERY selective in your reading. Second, the fact that you get your complete idea about Islam and Muslims from reading means that you have no real interaction about how actual Muslims think and feel.
Posted “So far, I have found that against actual extremist arguments, the only replies that I have gotten are: ‘Not my Islam’ ‘out of context’ ‘culture not religion’ and .. oh wait.. That’s exactly the same set of defenses that were splayed at the beginning of this post. ”
What else would one say? It isnt my religion, Mahmood has said the same thing. Out of context, and so it is, what else would you have me say? Your problem Ethan is that NO answer is going to suffice for you. You have made up your mind and you will allow no differing point of view to enter your thinking. That is your issue, not mine.
Re(7): Curing the symptoms
Posted “Certain actions of Mohammad that do not seem to have a context at all. For example, assasinating some of his critics, one of whom was a mother of small children. There was also an incident where he tortured and blinded some guys with hot irons so they would reveal the location of some treasure. After killing them, he showed the corpses to their wives. If Mohammad is meant to be a role model, it’s stuff like this that needs to be addressed.”
References please?
Re(3): Curing the symptoms
Posted “On the subject of Palestine, if every single Muslim country around Israel had volunteered to settle and integrate Palestinians into its citizenry, if the thuggish Grand Mufti of Jerusalem had not been an enthusiastic Nazi collaborator, recruiter, and notorious suck-up to Hitler, if Iranian Hizbullah, Syrian Baathists and PLO hadn’t started a civil war in Lebanon to scuttle the Lebanese attempt to assimilate Palestinians, or if the Petro-Dictatorships had been allowed to collapse because of their failed policies instead of being propped up by the price of oil, then there would be no Palestinian question anymore. Palestinians would be as integrated and happy as the German speakers of French Alsace-Lorraine”
I see, so the solution to the ethnic cleansing commited by the Israelis is that the Palestinians and the Arabs should just accept it and get used to it? Hum, should the Jews in Warsaw have just accepted their lot in life as well? I dont think so.
Malik
Re: Curing the symptoms
Posted “It wont be a popular revolt. It can only start by the Moslems in the West who can create a paradigm shift. And I dont think it will be onr prototype either. It will be a combination of moslem feminists, moslem intellectuals and moslem students of history who will dare to push the boundaries of covenational wisdom until the ‘unthinkable moderation’ becomes the norm …”
I think a good amount if it will come from Muslims in the west, I agree. I dont think you have to abandon your faith to realise change is needed. There are, what are calle “Islamic feminists” who argue for their rights based directly on The Qur’an and Hadith. They dont feel the need to apply Western feminist ideology to their cause, they have everything they need in The Qur’an and Hadith, and are more likely to succed in getting it using their own Islamic approach.
Re(2): Curing the symptoms
Posted “The Saudis just wanted to get rid of homegrown troublemakers and the Wahhabis wanted their jihad against the Russian atheists. There were bad motives all around. However, they did marginally help to contain the Soviet empire, so that’s good. The bad thing is that the Saudis kept feeding the Islamist beast. ”
This is why the US must cease its support of Saudi Arabia.
Posted “The American communists who fought in the Spanish Civil War were not fighting for a just cause. Communism and fascism are two sides of the same coin. No good would come of victory of either side. ”
Not everyone who went and faught against Franco were communists. What about the Americans who went and fought in China before WW2?
Posted “Saudi Arabia must be dismantled and its current Saudi and Wahhabi rulers dispossessed. Some of the Saudi princes and Wahhabi clerics should be hanged for war crimes with respect to their involvement with the Sep 11 attacks. Many of the Wahhabi clerics should be imprisoned for their support of the Islamist jihad against the West along with their domestic campaign of terror. All of the Saudi princes and Wahhabi clerics must have their petrodollar paychecks cut off so they can make no more terror with it. ”
Agreed, but this change can only come from with the Saudi community itself. This is why the US needs to support Saudi dissidents, instead of placing them on the terrorist list, as directed by the Saudi government, ie the leader of MIRA.
Re(7): Curing the symptoms
Posted “You’re saying that a democratic government won’t work in the Islamic world when it has proven to work everywhere else? ”
Where did I say that? Whay I said is the Western model wont work for the Middle East and the Islamic world. What are going to be different are the paths that these people choose to get them to that point, and what exactly it looks like once they do get there. I think Islam is prefectly suited for democracy!
Re(7): Curing the symptoms
Posted “There is no religion in Asia? Wow. That’s a new one on me. Japan was and still remains Shinto and Zen Buddhist. This will never change. South Korea is Buddhist and Christian. China was Confucian, and remains culturally so, though the official religion is ‘patriotism’. ”
For a self proclaimed professor you sure do have some issues with reding comprehension. The religion in Asia is much different, as are the cultures, when one compares them to the Middle East and the Islamic world. Cookie cutter solutions wont work here. I know it is hard for you to understand that as it is not a “black and white” situation.
Posted “Perhaps.. just perhaps.. it -is- a truth that fundamentalist religion creates the environment for anti-modernity.”
Makes me worry about the US with its fundamentalist president and its shift to the religious right!
Re(7): Curing the symptoms
Posted “Odd. My ideas are exactly consonant with Mahmood’s ideas – sticking too closely to the literal fundamentals as dictated by morons in turbans has held development of Islamic civilization back for a millennium. ”
That is Mahmood’s idea, and I agree with him. I do not think, however, it is your idea. You have stated that Islam cannot be reformed. I do not think Mahmood would agree. You have stated that basical Islam is rotten to its core, from the very begining, another thing I do not think Mahmood would agree with.
Mahmood, no matter our differences, has a very good and valid opinion. He differs from me in some key aspects, but that is okay. You, on the other hand, have no time for differences of opinion. You have made up your mind that Islam is rotten and must go. You will never sell that line to any Muslim anywhere in the world. Islam can and will reform whether you like it or not.
Ethan writes ” I propose free, open discussion. I support anyone’s right to change their religion without being forced into hiding. I abhor that there are those who would send death threats to people who merely are expressing their human right of religious freedom”
No, you dont. I suggest you read your own statements here on this board. You are VERY uncompromising. Odd considering you have very little actual knowledge or experience with Muslims or the Middle East. You have already made your blanket statement that you feel that Islam is rotten from the begining and cannot reform. Where is the open discussion in that? You are an extremist, full stop.
Posted “You, on the other hand, see my calls for free and open inquiry and freedom of religion and freedom to leave one’s religion to be a direct affont.”
Not at all. I kind of get a kick out of it. You are so out of touch with Islam, Muslims and reality as to be laughable. Muslims are not going to convert en-mass to another religion. I have no problem with open inquiry and debate, but that is NOT what you offer. You offer blanket condemnations, you take the side and the role of the Islamic extremists, and when a Muslim proposes reformation you scream that it isnt possible. There is nothing free and open about your arguement. You are dictatorial, you have no room for differing opinions, and you think that you have the corner on truth.
Posted “You are calling me violent and hateful and spiteful – an extremist – yet I have more than not expressed my views and my solution openly, and do not advocate violence. (At least not in the same vein as Steve ) ”
You have stated that the only solution is for Islam to go. Although, unlike Steve, you havent actually come out and stated. Moral cowardice on your part. At least with Steve he will come out and say it, you just make all of the extremists arguements for them. You call Islam rotten to the core. Just come out and openly say you think Islam must perish for their to be peace. You have already said Islam cannot reform, so the only solution can be the destruction of the faith. I am here to tell you that Islam can be reformed. The agenda you push actually gives aid and comfort to bin Laden and his extremists. I have read the literature, I have talked to these types. The point directly to people like you to justify their actions and beliefs. They point to people like you and your arguements to attack moderates like myself.
Posted “Perhaps it’s you who are not listening.”
It would seem the only way to have you think I am listen is to agree with you. Not very open and honest. Steve, no matter how I hate his ideas, is at least very open in his aims and ideas.
Palies
[quote]I also love the standard rebuttal that if other Arabs dont want to give Palestinians anything then no one should give them anything. It is the Israelis who expelled the Palestinians and stole their land. The onus is on Israel to make it right, not its neighbors. [/quote]
Israel at least, displays no hypocrisy about what it says and what it does concerning the Palestinians.
Re(4): Curing the symptoms
[quote]Explain the fact that for hundreds of years Islamic theocracies and their scientists led the world in the sciences?[/quote]
It’s readily apparent that during that 1000 year expansion period, culminating with the taking of Constantinople, and the rape of the Hagia Sophia, Islam’s dominance in science came from the absorbtion of other cultures’ science and intellectuals. Persian mathematics and art and astronomy became ‘Islamic’. The Hindu world’s books were translated and pawned off as being authored by Muslims, and Greek texts were translated.
Barring only a few original works, the Muslims themselves produced -NOTHING- scientific on their own. Islam clamps down on innovation in religion – and as such, clams down on thought, particularly scientific thought that can contradict ‘Koranic Science’. This follows Mohammed’s injunction to learn only what is useful from the Kafir, and discard the rest. Muslims have learned weapons and engineering from the infidels in the modern world – but there are precious few pure scientists.
If Islam was so advanced in science and math, why did they really not develop anything for hundreds of years? Europe pulled itself out of the dark ages, rejected religious dogmatism, and developed calculus while the Islamic world was stuck squaring the circle, accepting religious dogmatism and regressing to the sad state of affairs we see today.
What’s the diference?
The Middle East accepted prescripive-by-definiton Islam that dominates the social structure and cultural order.
Europe threw off the shackles of prescriptive Christianity that dominated the social structure and cultural order.
You want Islam to move forward, Malik? Promote open thinking. Stop the Mullahs from killing scientists that think outside the box of Islam. Ever wonder why there are no religious Muslim cosmologists? Cosmology is kafir central, an arbitrary God cannot play a role.
Re: Palies
Posted “Israel at least, displays no hypocrisy about what it says and what it does concerning the Palestinians.”
No, they do not. They are pulling out of Gaza so they can hold onto the West Bank, I dont see most of them talking about that. One or two of Sharons advisors have admitted this, but that is it. The Palestinian issue is very complicated within the neighboring countries. Many people have felt that to give Palestinian victims of Israel ethnic cleansing citizenship my hurt their arguments for the right to return. You can see it now, Israeli politician says “see, they are already citizens of another Arab country, why should we let them back”? It goes perfectly in line with those that claim that Jordan is really the Palestinian state, so no need to create another one.
Palestinians do get a raw deal from their neighbors, but lets face it, they wouldnt be there if the Israelis hadnt expelled them. Time for force Israel to comply with UN Resolutions.
Re: Curing the symptoms
[quote]LOL! Citing a book that no longer exists? You call a book that cannot be read the “primary” biography of Mohammed (SAW). You, sir, are a scholar.[/quote]
Apparently much more of a scholar that you are, Malik. You don’t even know anything about the historical jurisprudence of your own religion. The self-same jusriprudence that a large portion of Islam is built upon.
Re: Curing the symptoms
[quote]When one understands The Qur’an and the Sunnah properly there is no need to change it.[/quote]
When one understands ideology, one finds that it is perfect. That’s an appeal to unnamed authority. Logical fallacy.
[quote]I do not believe the fundamentals of Christianity have been changed. I do believe that in the West people have choosen to ignore them.[/quote]
Then you deny the Koran, which says that Christianity has been changed and corrupted.
Malik, you talk a lot about ‘itjihad’. What exactly would you reinterpret, and how? Stop pointing me toward Ramadan or overquoting articles and speak for yourself for once.
Re(1): Palies
[quote]No, they do not. They are pulling out of Gaza so they can hold onto the West Bank, I dont see most of them talking about that.[/quote]
Yes, they do. The Israelis don’t like the Palies and their behavior is consistent with that. Can’t say the same for the rest of the middle-east.
[quote]The Palestinian issue is very complicated within the neighboring countries. Many people have felt that to give Palestinian victims of Israel ethnic cleansing citizenship my hurt their arguments for the right to return.[/quote]
What sweethearts those people are! Better for the Palies to suffer under occupation than to dismantle an argument. Palies get treated like rabble wherever they go and their Arab brethen, who purport to care for their welfare, have no use for them beyond their ability to kill Jews.
Right of return? It’s been 50 years. Other than Palies who were actually living there at the time, I don’t see how this claim is going to stand strong for the rest of ’em.
-Aliandra
Re(5): Curing the symptoms
Posted “It’s readily apparent that during that 1000 year expansion period, culminating with the taking of Constantinople, and the rape of the Hagia Sophia, Islam’s dominance in science came from the absorbtion of other cultures’ science and intellectuals. Persian mathematics and art and astronomy became ‘Islamic’. The Hindu world’s books were translated and pawned off as being authored by Muslims, and Greek texts were translated. ”
Can you name me one society that has not somehow gained from the people that went before it? Are you saying that after these places were absorbed into the Islamic world these sciences did not grow?
Posted “Barring only a few original works, the Muslims themselves produced -NOTHING- scientific on their own.”
Nothing? Wow, I guess you could say that about the Japanese whose greatest skill is taking items from other people and making them better. if your theory is true then the science within the Islamic community would have completely died about after they came to these countries! Why did it flourish for hundreds of years afterward?
Posted “Islam clamps down on innovation in religion – and as such, clams down on thought, particularly scientific thought that can contradict ‘Koranic Science’.”
Then how did scientific and technological advances continue for hundreds of years after these areas become Islamic? Is Islam clamps down on science, wouldnt it reason that as soon as Islam ruled the land the science would stop? Why did the science continue for hundreds and hundreds of years? Why did Spain descend into the dark ages after the Muslims left when it was known as a light to the world and a center of learning when Islam was there?
Posted “If Islam was so advanced in science and math, why did they really not develop anything for hundreds of years?”
Islam developed, improved and presevered a lot. It is clear that you have a very grave hatred of everything Islamic, Muslims, its history. Your hatred of Islam almost boarders on the pathological.
Posted “The Middle East accepted prescripive-by-definiton Islam that dominates the social structure and cultural order.”
The Middle East, under Islam, was at one point the shining light of the world when it came to the sciences and learning. The oldest univeristy in the world is in Cairo, even the modern idea of the university is an Islamic concept. What has happened since then is a cultural malaise and a straying from a purely Islamic concept. The Middle East and the Islamic world as a whole was much better of when it was more Islamic, not less.
Posted “You want Islam to move forward, Malik? Promote open thinking. Stop the Mullahs from killing scientists that think outside the box of Islam. Ever wonder why there are no religious ? Cosmology is kafir central, an arbitrary God cannot play a role.”
Here you really show your ignorance Ethan. There have been Muslim Cosmologists. The more you open your mouth Ethan the more it is clear you just do not have a grasp about the subjects being discussed. It has a long history and if you had bothered to do a google search before you typed what you did you would have had a bit of a clue. This is a good site that explains Islamic cosmology and its history and compares it with Chinese cosmology. Ethan, get a clue, your hatred of Islam is causing you to make very basic mistakes. Wise up. Your scope of thinking and ideas are so limited Ethan. The box you place yourself in is just as closed as any extremist.
“All these names and many more like them are mentioned in the Koran. In the view of the Muslim cosmolo-gists, these two categories of names work in harmony to bring the cosmos into existence. As Rumi puts it, referring to the two kinds of names by their dominant attribute, “Severity and gentleness were married, and a world of good and evil was born from the two” (Rumi 1925-40, II 2680, quoted in Chittick, 1983, p. 101). ”
“As a result, many Muslim thinkers, the cosmologists in particular, see everything in the universe as a reflection of the divine names and attributes. In a famous saying, the Prophet explained why God created the universe: “God says, I was a hidden treasure and I desired to be known. Therefore I created the creatures, so that I might be known’.” Hence, the universe is the locus in which the Hidden Treasure is known by the creatures. Through the universe God comes to be known, and since there is nothing in the universe but created things, it is the created things themselves which give news of the Hidden Treasure. The cosmologists employ the terms zohur or ‘manifestation’ and tajalli or ‘self-disclosure’ to explain the relationship of the world to God through the cosmos. God discloses Himself to His creatures. The creatures themselves are God’s self-manifestation. ”
http://www.sufism.ru/eng/txts/a_tao_of_islam.htm
Re(1): Curing the symptoms
Ethan “Then you deny the Koran, which says that Christianity has been changed and corrupted.”
Of course it has. I wasnt talking about that, I am talking about the version of Christianity that is preached today. They are not even following that, let alone what Jesus(SAW) originally preached.
Posted “Malik, you talk a lot about ‘itjihad’. What exactly would you reinterpret, and how? Stop pointing me toward Ramadan or overquoting articles and speak for yourself for once.”
I am not a scholar Ethan, dont expect me to speak like one. If Mahmood cannot even answer most of these questions how would you expect me to? That is what scholars are for. There are books written on the subject, consult the experts. I am not even close to an expert. Dont you think if you were really interested in the subject or an educated Muslim viewpoint of it you would read the books by those out there? I suggest you are not in the least bit interested in reading anything that might challanges you views.
Re(2): Curing the symptoms
I would appreciate it if you would stop dragging me into your conversations Malik. Please.
And when you say Jesus he doesn’t deserve the “SAW” but just “AS” Alaih Al-Salam. SAW is reserved for Mohammed (SAW) only.
Manners
May I ask everyone please to refrain from personal attacks in conversation. And I’d like to remind everyone that with a little bit of manners a message gets through much quicker.
“Comments are owned by the poster. We are not responsible for their content.
Remember, COURTESY IS CONTAGIOUS! Please refrain from personal attacks, flames and insults.”
Re(3): Curing the symptoms
Posted “I would appreciate it if you would stop dragging me into your conversations Malik. Please.
And when you say Jesus he doesn’t deserve the “SAW” but just “AS” Alaih Al-Salam. SAW is reserved for Mohammed (SAW) only.”
You are correct about the AS/SAW. My mistake. As to dragging you into the conversations. I mention you for two reason. First, this is your blog. Second, the readers here respect your opinion. You are in no way tarred and feathered with the “extremist” label, hence your opinion matters to people here. It is clear there are those here who think that there are two types of Muslims, extremists, and those that dont practice their religion. You are proof that this is not the case. You are not an extremist, you are open to new and non Islamic things, yet you have not dropped your religion. This is why, when people seel to label others, they go wrong.
Sorry if you do not like me using you as an example. For many people on this board, including Steve and Ethan, you are probably the only Muslim they “know”.
Re(1): Curing the symptoms
A good quote by a great scholar on this subject:
“The task before the modern Muslim is therefore, immense. He has to rethink the whole system of Islam without completely breaking with the past…The only course open to us is to approach modern knowledge with a respectful but independent attitude and to appreciate the teachings of Islam in light of that knowldge, even though we me be led to differ from those who have gone before us.”
Mohammed Iqbal.
Re(4): Curing the symptoms
[quote]Malik: Sorry if you do not like me using you as an example. For many people on this board, including Steve and Ethan, you are probably the only Muslim they “know”. [/quote]
Wrong again, Malik. We don’t keep Muslims in glass jars here in America. They’re everywhere, working with us, studying with us, eating with us, walking down the sidewalk with us. They are not distant celestial bodies that we can never know.
Steve
Re: Manners
Is this some kinda new policy, Mahmood?
Puzzled,
Steve
Re(5): Curing the symptoms
Posted “Wrong again, Malik. We don’t keep Muslims in glass jars here in America. They’re everywhere, working with us, studying with us, eating with us, walking down the sidewalk with us. They are not distant celestial bodies that we can never know.
Steve ”
So you have Muslims in your life that you interact with and talk with on a daily basis like you do with Mahmood here? Really. Great.
Re(1): Manners
not at all… just a reminder.
Curing the symptoms
From Mike in the US,
I agree with you Anon, the world would have been a better (and very different) place if Bush senior had followed through. I worry that Bush junior is speaking to broadly, especially to Iran. It is safe to assume that Iran (and Islam in Iran) would be better off without a select few clerics running the show. It hurts the country and it hurts the religion, because nobody likes being told what to do. As far as “invasion” goes, what does Islam define as an Invasion? What if you just bump off a dictator and get the hell out as soon as possible. (And yes, we do disagree about reasons for the invasions and the fututre)
Regarding the “book” thing: I posted that comment because I was angry. I was angry with the Isreali on my television claiming that his “settlement” on a Palestinian man’s farm was promised to him by god. Then I clicked onto the internet and skimmed a conversation about who deserves to die and who is innocent. (wtf) I should not have phrased my comments in such an aggresive manner, but I was pissed, sorry bud.
Re(6): Curing the symptoms
Yup. We don’t talk about politics like with Mahmood. We talk about girls and places to go in DC and once in a while about work.
Shocker, huh?
Steve
Re(2): Manners
Because that’s not the way we’ve done it before, that’s all I’m saying. You’re kinda messing with Mahmood Den Tradition here. It’s just such a radical break with the past to start being polite and respectful. I’m just not sure what to make of it.
Steve
Re(6): Curing the symptoms
[quote]Malik: The primary ethnic cleansing I was talking about were the cases in 1948 and 1967. [/quote]
1967? You mean when Egypt, Jordan and Syria attempted to ethnically cleanse away Israel with the help of Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Algeria?
Confused,
Steve
Re(6): Curing the symptoms
[quote]Malik: People in the Middle East have given billions to the Palestinians.[/quote]
How much of that loot actually made it to the Palestinian people and what did it buy? I see a lot of poor Palestinians but not much else. I can see where Iraqi and Saudi money bought suicide bombings and where Arafat fattenned up his Swiss bank accounts, but I don’t see where much capital was invested in building up the Palestinian economy or infrastructure. With all that investment capital flowing into Palestine, why isn’t it a paradise instead of a big slum?
Where do you think all those billions went, Malik?
Steve
Curing the symptoms
Malik,Salam Alaykum. I am also a Muslim. i’m half English and half Bahraini. I’m 40 years old and a Banker. I’m married to a foreign Christian.
I agree with you that the troubles we are living at the moment are Cultural and political rather than religious. However,religion is the platform by which social and political motives are expressed.If we can come up with a plan that removes the influence of relgiion on culture and politics,we must.How, in your opinion,can we separate those religious zealots who would use Islam to forward a political agenda, from doing so?
Please,something practical guys.
Re: Curing the symptoms
Dear Mike:
Iraq was “handed” to Saddam Hussein by the United States of America, do you truly think the Bush Jr. team is atoning for past mistakes? Have they shown any inkling of understanding or caring, about this world?
The hard core right wing Republican party United States of America benefits tremendously from this illegal occupation. Certainly the low and middle income soldiers who tend to be Democratic party voters didn’t intend, nor do they enjoy being there (in Iraq). Think about it.
Be calm with your reply, I am a US born and raised White Anglo Saxon Protestant, someone whom a priori you would consider “untouchable” , “beyond reproach” or “harbouring ulterior motives”. The “knee jerk left wing liberal” tag is unapplicable here, you’ve got to be rational and convincing.
Re: Curing the symptoms
Posted “I agree with you that the troubles we are living at the moment are Cultural and political rather than religious. However,religion is the platform by which social and political motives are expressed.If we can come up with a plan that removes the influence of relgiion on culture and politics,we must.How, in your opinion,can we separate those religious zealots who would use Islam to forward a political agenda, from doing so?
Please,something practical guys.”
I think we need to move forward on three fronts. First of all, Islam is always going to play a pretty large role in cultural life as well as a role in political life. What moderates like us must do is not to allow extremists to define Islam in their terms, or on what role Islam is going to have in society. Second, the Muslim would must get back to the basics that once made it great, learning and innovation. I think once these countries start tasting some economic rewards and feel empowered on an educational and technological basis, a lot of the support for these types of people will disappear. Finally, real steps need to be taken to address the political issues presented by the extremists. Support for Israel and the occupation of Palestine, support for murderous dictators in the area. Pull these issues from under the extremists, coopt their platform. They offer no real and practical goals, lets give some to the people.
Re(7): Curing the symptoms
Posted “According to your logic I guess the Iraqi people are worse off now than before.”
That is not what I said, let me repeat what I said “The invasion of Iraq was done for many reasons, none of which were to better the Iraqi people, and the Iraqi people still do not play into the equation here.”
Certain segments of the Iraqi people are better off now, sure. But, at the end, that isnt why Bush invaded Iraq, it is just an incidental outcome. Whether the Iraq people, long term, are better off, still remains to be seen. It has been a couple of months since the Iraqi election and they havent been able to put together a government. Keep in mind as well that only 2 out of the three major groups are even involved in this negotiation.
Posted “Ah then apparently in your view it was ok to kill him.
You really need to take a couple of steps back and some time to smell the flowers. ”
Indeed I have, the lillies are blooming in my yard, dafilidils as well. This man knew the risks he was facing in going to Iraq. Unlike the young men and women of our military, he had a choice to go. If you are going to a foreign land to support the occupation forces, there are certain risks you take.
Re(5): Curing the symptoms
Posted “Malik, the population of Palestinians is continuously growing, fed by UN agencies. The Palestinians boast that they will eventually overwhelm Israel with their numbers. By contrast, with ethnic cleansing, the victim population ceases to exist. If the Israelis are ethnically cleansing the Palestinians, they are certainly doing so incompetently. ”
The primary ethnic cleansing I was talking about were the cases in 1948 and 1967. For ethnic cleansing to exist the victim population does not have to cease to exsist, unless you are claiming that the Serbs did not commit an organised campaign of ethnic cleansing in Croatia and Bosnia? Hint…..there are still Croats and Bosnians in the area where the Serbs murdered and expelled hundreds of thousands of people.
Re(2): Curing the symptoms
Posted “Not all. Saudi Arabia and its Wahhabis feature them. ”
Which is exactly why Saudi Arabia is not a good example to point at when trying to make any point about Islam. Thanks for making my argument for me!
Posted “How many religious warriors are slaughtering people to impose their Old Testament interpretation on the world? Who exactly is the Old Testament Bin Laden or Zarqawi? ”
Actually, many of the forces opposed to Ariel Sharons disengagement in Gaza are basing their opinions on the Old Testament. The very foundation of the state of Israel, and all of the violence that has come from that foundation, is based on the Old Testament. The Old Testament bin Laden or Zarqawi? I am hardly a biblical scholar but it says “1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations-the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you- 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. [a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you.” Deuteronomy 7:1-4″
The Israelis were commanded to kill all of the men, women and children in such cities, which they did. I guess if you have the time to go look for the all stars of Israeli genocide, feel free.
Posted “The backwardness of the Islamic world is the product of Islam, which believed all the answers were in the Koran so there was no need to listen to the dar al harb, even declaring fatwa after fatwa prohibiting such communication.”
Muslims are not required to listen to Fatwas, first of all. Second, Islamic history does not bear out your claims. Islam, for hundreds of years, was very progressive, very forward thinking, and the light of the world. The Islamic world took ideas from Europe, expounded upon them, expanded them and gave to the modern world many of the tools we use on a day to day basis to get to where we have technologically. So it is clear that The Qur’an does not advocate that, unless you are claiming that the earlier Muslims were not really living Islam, and that only contemporary Muslims are? What we need to do, as a Muslim community, is figure out why we went from leading the world in the sciences, to dragging far behind.
As to the dar al harb concept, I like many other moderate Muslims, think these labels no longer accurately describe anything and need to be rethought out. Most countries traditional considered dar al harb, should certainly be considered now dar al Islam. Most Muslim countries should be considered dar al harb, under the traditional methods used to define what is harb and what is Islam.
Posted “While the rest of the world talked and built on each other’s accomplishments, the Muslim world isolated itself out of pride and ignorance and sat still.”
Like I have already said, Islamic history shows that Islam lead the world for hundreds of years. This only ceased to be in the 1500s. The bigger question is why did Islam stop leading the world in the sciences? This is what needs to be considered and changed.
Posted “It’s Islam that has hobbled the progress of the Middle East.”
Not so. Why didnt Islam “hobble the progress” when Islam lead the world in the sciences? It isnt Islam itself, it is a cultural issue, and a brand of Islam. Not Islam itself. The Prophet(SAW) himself demanded that Muslims never stop learning, he told them to travel to China if they had to. History does not support your statements. Islamic society and its sciences were the glory of the world when Europe was languishing in the dark ages.
Posted “It can only progress to the extent that the Islamic stranglehold on the culture is released or thrown off. ”
Again, not so. Islam will always have a very major role in the culture in these areas. The question is how to we get back to the Islam that encouraged the people to be the light of the world, to excell and lead in the sciences and writing.
Re(7): Curing the symptoms
Posted “He was freelancing, Malik, not part of any occupation force. He was trying to hook up with Iraqis to repair communications towers, his trade. That’s the reason why he was so easy to catch and kill. He was flying solo.”
I feel bad for him and his family. But come on, who in their right mind would go to Iraq in such circumstances? The guy had no knowledge of the area, he didnt speak Arabic. He was interacting with occupation forces, that is how the Americans knew he was there in the first place.
Posted “If Bush wasn’t thinking about civilians, how did that election happen? Was that some sort of accident that happenned while Bush was snoozing?”
Bush didnt get into Iraqi to bring freedom and elections, that is simply a by product.
Posted “So are the Iraqi brigades, some sixty of them, which are taking over their own defense and wreaking a fair amount of damage on the Baathists and foreign jihadis.”
You dont read the papers do you? These troops are having little or no impact, and it is clear that the US islying about the numbers trained and their quality. US forces will have to do any real fighting for several years to come.
Posted “The majority of the population figures into the equation by informing on the insurgents, of whom as many as a hundred per day are being captured and stuffed into Abu Ghraib.”
Really, see here is me thinking that when BBC stated yesterday that some 60-80 attacks are still happening in Iraq that things are not looking good. A hundred prisoners into Abu Ghraib? How many of these people are women and children? Americans are known for arresting the wives, sisters and mothers of suspects to try and get them to turn themselves in. 100 people a day? So the US has arrested and is hold 3,000 from the last month along? 9,000 for the year? Abu Ghraib must be HUGE!
Posted “And of course, there are the hundreds of millions of bucks of civil affairs projects being implemented all over Iraq, more proof of concern of America for ordinary Iraqis. ”
LOL! All proof of more concern for Haliburton! The BBC has reported that the rebuilding process in Iraq may need the biggest fraud invesitgation in the history of the world. Hundreds of millions have gone missing, and billions have yet to be even spent! LOL! Proof of care for the Iraqi people indeed!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3746340.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4353491.stm
Posted “One of the many reasons we invaded Iraq was to free the Iraqis for a better life, a reason that was plainly and publicly stated by Bush before we went in.”
Sure it was. Window dressing. Why did he wait until after 9/11 to talk about it? It is directly because he knew the American people would not go for it. Also, if he cares about the Iraqi people, does he not then care for the Saudi people? When are we going in there to free them? What about the people in Sudan? Congo? We dont care about them? Even if “caring” played any sort of a role, which US history in Iraq does not bear out, larger reasons are the real motivator.
Posted “If you want to see an occupation where the occupiers don’t give a damn about the people, take a close look at Iraq’s occupation of Kuwait and compare the differences. In Iraqi Kuwait, a state of fear was imposed by Saddam’s reign of terror. There were no elections in occupied Kuwait under Saddam. In Lebanon, the Syrian occupiers rule by brute force and a network of spies and informers. Here is the difference: When an Arab army occupies your land, you lose your future. When the US army occupies your land, you gain your future. ”
Or we could look at the US back occupation of Palestine. You are a real old world colonialsts. The backward locals certainly do not know what is best for them. We, as the superior culture and power have a God mandated right to go and impose on them what is best for them. Yes, occupation is just fine depending on who is doing the occupying eh?
Re(7): Curing the symptoms
Posted “An independent contractor working to build cell phone towers and get business contracts for his company is now part of the ‘occupation’.”
He was an American in a country invaded and occupied by Americans. We was there to make money. He knew the risks. In my opinion he wasnt too smart to go there.
Posted “Way to go Malik. Just tie a turban around your head.”
Yes, the insults help develop a good debate and really push forward your point of view. Good work.
Posted “Good to know that the insurgency thinks so much about the civilian population of Iraq. ”
I never claimed they did. It is clear that the insurgency do not all share the same goals or ideals or the same tactics.
Re(3): Curing the symptoms
Posted “It’s not enough these days just to have good “skills”. To develop dynamic economies, you need a dynamic and innovative culture, new ideas sparking in every direction, loads of creativity and energy. Think Japan or China. I just don’t see anything like that anywhere in the Muslim world, nevermind the ME. It’s not something that’s going to happen in societies still hugely dominated by what is arguably the most prescriptive religion on earth. ”
Explain the fact that for hundreds of years Islamic theocracies and their scientists led the world in the sciences? Islam, at its root, is not keeping the ME or the Islamic world from moving forward. I think it is a cultural malaise, and a certain strain of Islam that is keeping it from moving forward. As a matter of fact, Islam and Muslim countries have been at its most progressive and dynamic when ruled in a theocracy, until modern times. The decline of the Muslim countries almost equally parallels the decline in the Islamic empires.
Islam needs reformation, as do the cultures. There is nothing in Islam itself to keep Muslim countries from once again at least joining the world technologically, or even leading it. I work with hundreds of scientists here in the DC area, and about 15-20% of them are Muslim, the majority of those from Muslim countries.
Curing the symptoms
Malik,
The book is: “Sirat Rasul Allah” by one: Moahmmed bin Ishaq. Though the book no longer survives, there are a multitude of quotes from the text that exist. Tabari quotes extensively from it.
Perhaps, you should read up on your Islamic history. Start here:
Al-Rawandi, I.M. Origins of Islam: A Critical Look at the Sources. Prometheus Books (2000)
LOL! Citing a book that no longer exists? You call a book that cannot be read the “primary” biography of Mohammed (SAW). You, sir, are a scholar.
Curing the symptoms
Posted “Free and open inquiry is a good thing. The problem lies with those who will kill the inquirers! As Mahmood said, a twit in a turban can order his death and theologically grant the perpetrator heaven. The first step to changing this attitude is to somehow make this and all such decrees like it to be theologically unsound.”
But wait, how can things be changed when Islam is unreformable? You said that yourself. Now it can be changed? So which is your real belief, can it be reformed or not?
Posted “The question is -HOW-. ”
According to your previous statements it cannot be.
Posted “You said ‘this is not in line with Islam’ in your reply. How is it not in line with Islam? I’m not even going to take the extremist angle here – I just want you to explain to me how it is Islamically justifiable to not kill a critic of Islam, but instead listen to his or her ideas and grow from them.”
People have debated issues within Islam for hundreds of years. Debate and criticism has a long history in Islam.
Posted “Can the Koran accept criticism? Can the Sunnah be changed through outside criticism? ”
When one understands The Qur’an and the Sunnah properly there is no need to change it.
Posted “Can the fundamentals of your faith be challenged as Christianity has been, and grow from that?”
I do not believe the fundamentals of Christianity have been changed. I do believe that in the West people have choosen to ignore them.
Posted “Or is the only way forward to find oneself being flung back fundamentalistically to the 7th century? ”
Most of the issues Islam has today is because of things that have been added to the religion since the 7th century. Most of the issues we face today are issues based on people unwilling to take a new look at their religion and instead live according to scholarly schools of thought created AFTER the 7th century. We need to have an open and frank discussion about Islam, Sunnah, The Qur’an and Hadith. Nothing needs to be “changed”. This is what ijtihad is all about, the ability to look at The Qur’an, Sunnah and Hadith, and base our outcomes on what is happening here and now.
You Ethan, seek to tie Islam down. You seem to think there are two options, disregard Islam and change it fundamentally, or go back to the 7th century. That is your limited thinking. There are other options. You state you read, why not read Tariq Ramadan? If you want to know the direction Islam needs to go, and hear it from a true moderate, read him. I suggest you are not even really fit to discuss moderates in todays Islam if you are not very aware of Ramadan and his works.
Re(5): Curing the symptoms
Posted “There wasn’t too much protestation from Arabs when Kuwait expelled some 300,000 Palestinian in 1990. Except for Jordan and Lebanon, Arab countries find it acceptable not to offer Palestinians asylum. If the middle-east does indeed care about the welfare of Palestinians, they should put their money where their mouth is.
As it is, Palestinians get the short side of the stick everywhere.”
People in the Middle East have given billions to the Palestinians. I also love the standard rebuttal that if other Arabs dont want to give Palestinians anything then no one should give them anything. It is the Israelis who expelled the Palestinians and stole their land. The onus is on Israel to make it right, not its neighbors.
Re(8): Curing the symptoms
[quote]During the begining years of Islam the religion was in a fight for its very life. Hence, things needed to be done that would not need to be done today.[/quote]
During the early years of Christianity, Christians were persecuted far more than they are persecuted under even Islamic rule today.
Yet, they did not in any case promote killing unbelievers. Historically, those verses (Surah 2 and 9 are traditionally later verses) were the last to be written – when Islam was powerful – so what you just said is a bare-faced lie. Islam didn’t need armed Jihad to survive.
It needed an excuse to plunder, rape, take slaves and kill those who didn’t agree.
[quote]Second, the fact that you get your complete idea about Islam and Muslims from reading means that you have no real interaction about how actual Muslims think and feel. [/quote]
Because, obviously, no actual Muslims write books or websites delving into the minutae of their religion.
Re(8): Curing the symptoms
[quote]Or we could look at the US back occupation of Palestine. You are a real old world colonialsts. The backward locals certainly do not know what is best for them. We, as the superior culture and power have a God mandated right to go and impose on them what is best for them. Yes, occupation is just fine depending on who is doing the occupying eh?[/quote]
Argh. I hate to tu-quoque again, but this was the exact same rationale used for the invasion and forced conversion of Persia, the destruction of churches across Jerusalem and the Holy Land by Jihadists and in the modern world – what bin Laden means when he says ‘I call you to Islam’.
There has only been one occupying army that has ever been so careful not to desecrate holy shrines in their conquest, only one army that has naively tried to set up pluralist and representative government before leaving, and only one occupying army that has -left- and not turned the invaded land into a permanent colony, or absorbed it into the religiopolitical sphere of control. (Case History: See Constantinople)
That would be America.
In World War II, we didn’t nuke Kyoto because doing so would be devastating culturally to the Japanese. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not. In the initial invasion we didn’t even go -near- the shrine of Ali. All of the desecration of the shrine happened inside.. by Sadr’s men.
Saddam destroyed the shrines! Is the best argument for ‘evil American’ equivalent to ‘oh no they put a bullet hole in the door!!@!#1’
Compared to the horrors inflicted every day by some Middle Eastern governments, Abu Ghraib is child’s play. It’s amusing to see people get so worked up, when in truth, the invasion of Iraq has been one of the most politically correct (as in PC) invasions -in the history of the world-.
Re(7): Curing the symptoms
Posted “Yes. There was precious little development beyond the basics. Where was the Islamic Lebniz, or Newton? Why did Euclid’s elements form the basis of advanced science”
You are not aware of the advancement of astronomy and the maths during this time? It would seem you have a serious issue accepting that Muslims or Islam have ever contributed anything positive. Are you truly unaware of everything below? Does your hatred of Islam and Muslims keep you from admitting that Islam has had a great role in the world? I am sure you will find some way to explain away everything below. You must to keep your hatred of Islam flowing….
Lets educate you:
“Chemistry and Alchemy
Jabir Ibn Haiyan, known in Europe by the name Geber, is generally known as the Father of Chemistry. He was one of the leading scientists in Kufa (in present day Iraq) around 776 C.E. In his early days, he was supported by the advisor to the Abbasid Caliph. Jabir died in Kufa in 803 C.E.
Jabir’s (Geber’s) major contribution was in the field of Chemistry. He is famous for writing twenty-two books on chemistry and alchemy. He introduced experimental investigation into alchemy which led to modern Chemistry. Jabir emphasized experimentation and development of methods to show the same result when an experiment was repeated. He developed basic chemical methods and the study of various chemical reactions and thus helped develop chemistry as a science and away from the legends and “magic” of alchemy.
[Note: Alchemy was an early “science” – or was it magic? Alchemists tried to change metals like lead into gold, and to find a magic “elixir” or medical potion that would keep people from ever dying. While it is not really a science, some alchemists helped us understand the beginnings of chemistry.]”
http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/ScienceMath/Science2.html
“Arab contributions:
Algebra was first fully developed by Al Khwarism, the “father of algebra”.
The Arabs translated and improved upon the Egyptian, Hebrew, and Greek geometry.
Al-Tusi, a Muslim, is the “father of trigonometry”.
Al-Khashi (from Persia, 15th century) invented decimal fractions.
Arabic Numerals
One of the greatest advances was the introduction of “Arabic” numerals. The “Arabic” numerals were influenced by India’s mathematics. It is a system based on place values and a decimal system of tens. This system had a zero to hold a place. These numbers were much easier to use for calculation than the Roman system which used numbers, like I, V, X, L, C, M, etc. Addition, subtraction, multiplication and division now became easy.
Al Khwarizmi wrote the first book on algebra. (The name “algebra” was first used by him.)
Al Khwarizmi was born about 790 in Baghdad (now in Iraq) and died about 850.
Geometry
The scholars at the House of Wisdom in Baghdad and at universities in Cairo, Egypt also contributed to geometry. Geometry was highly developed by the Greeks, and the Muslims translated such great Greek thinkers as Euclid. Muslims used their understanding of geometry into designing wheels of all kinds, especially waterwheels and other systems for drawing up water, in improving farming equipment, and in designing devices of war such as catapults and crossbows. Geometry was also put to work in art, with beautiful geometric designs. Muslims further defined Euclidian geometry, and pointed the way toward the discovery of independent, non-Euclidean geometry developed in the most recent centuries.
Trigonometry is also mostly a Muslim creation. It is a branch of mathematics which studies plane and spherical triangles. It developed from the need of astronomers to map points in the sky on a heavenly sphere. Trigonometry’s functions, involving ratios such as sine and cosine, tangent and cotangent, were greatly developed and refined in the Islamic lands.
Famous Muslim Mathematicians of the Middle Ages
1. Al-Khwarizmi (770 – 840 C.E.) was one of the greatest mathematicians who ever lived and is called the “Father of Algebra”. He also helped to bring “Arabic numerals” into use into the Islamic Empire, as well as later into Europe. He also demonstrated operations with fractions for the first time. Khwarizmi influenced the growth of science and mathematics. Several of his books were translated into many other languages, and were used as university textbooks until the 16th century. His approach was systematic and logical. He brought together the knowledge of his time on various branches of science, especially mathematics, and also added his original contributions.
2. Omar Khayyam (1044 – 1123 C.E.): Another great Muslim mathematician was Omar Khayyam. He is best known today for his poetry, but his contribution to mathematics was great. He showed how to express roots of cubic equations by line segments obtained by intersecting conic sections. Khayyam was an outstanding poet, mathematician, and astronomer. His work on algebra was known throughout Europe in the Middle Ages, and he also contributed to a calendar reform. Khayyam refers in his algebra book to Pascal’s triangle. The algebra of Khayyam is geometrical, solving linear and quadratic equations by methods appearing in Euclid’s Elements. Khayyam also gave important results on ratios giving a new definition and extending Euclid’s work to include the multiplication of ratios. He poses the question of whether a ratio can be regarded as a number but leaves the question unanswered.
3. Al-Khashi was born in 1390 in Kashan, Iran and died in 1450 in Samarkand (now Uzbek). He calculated ¼ (pi) to 16 decimal places which was the best until about 1700. He considered himself the inventor of decimal fractions. He wrote The Reckoners’ Key which summarizes arithmetic and contains work on algebra and geometry.
4. Al-Biruni (973 – 1048 C.E.) was a philosopher, astronomer, pharmacologist (one who studies drugs and herbs used for health), botanist (one who studies plants), geologist and mathematician. He translated Euclid’s work into Sanskrit (an Indian language), and calculated the earth’s circumference (distance around the earth) and radius (distance to the center) with an accuracy that is close to today’s measurements.
5. Nasir Al-Din Al-Tusi (1201 – 1274 C.E.) pioneered spherical trigonometry which includes six fundamental formulas for the solution of spherical right-angled triangles. One of his most important mathematical contributions was the treatment of trigonometry as a new mathematical discipline. He wrote on binomial coefficients which Pascal later introduced. (He can be called the “Father of Trigonometry”.) He was also an astronomer philosopher, and medical scholar as well as a mathematician.
The Islamic Empire, through its massive work of translating Greek and Roman texts into Arabic, learned about the manufacture of glass lenses. Islamic scientist Ibn Sahl (984) developed the first accurate theory of refraction of light. He gave Islamic science the understanding needed to develop all the optical tools and theories later developed in 17th century Europe.
While European “hospitals” at this time were usually simply monasteries where the sick were told they would live or die according to God’s will, not human intervention, Muslim hospitals pioneered the practices of diagnosis, cure, and future prevention.
The first hospital in the Islamic world was built in Damascus in 707, and soon most major Islamic cities had hospitals, in which hygiene was emphasized and healing was a priority. Hospitals were open 24 hours a day, and many doctors did not charge for their services. Later, a central hospital was established in Baghdad by order of the Abbasid ruler, the first of thirty-four hospitals throughout the Muslim world, many of them with special wards for women.
Traveling clinics with adequate supplies of drugs toured the countryside, and others paid regular visits to the jails.
Famous Doctors
a.) Al-Razi, a 9th century Persian physician, made the first major Muslim contribution to medicine when he developed treatments for smallpox and measles. He also made significant observations about hay fever, kidney stones, and scabies, and first used opium as an anesthetic.
b.) Ibn Sina was one of the greatest physicians in the world, with his most famous book used in European medical schools for centuries. He is credited with discovering the contagious nature of diseases like tuberculosis, which he correctly concluded could be transmitted through the air, and led to the introduction of quarantine as a means of limiting the spread of such infectious diseases.
c.) In the 10th century, Al-Zahravi first conducted surgery for the eye, ear, and throat, as well as performing amputations and cauterizations. He also invented several surgical instruments, including those for the inner ear and the throat.
d.) Other Muslim physicians accurately diagnosed the plague, diphtheria, leprosy, rabies, diabetes, gout, epilepsy, and hemophilia long before the rest of the world.
Muslims also made advancements in the field of pharmacology (the study of drugs and medicines). They experimented with the medical effects of various herbs and other drugs, and familiarized themselves with anesthetics (germ killers) used in India. The Arabs established the first drugstores and wrote the first encyclopedias of drugs and medicines. Baghdad had at one time as many as eight hundred sixty two registered pharmacists, all of whom had passed formal examinations.
http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/6443/Maths/Math.html
Arzachel was famous as well for his Book of Tables. Many “books of tables” had been compiled before then, but his is an almanac containing tables which allow one to find the days on which Coptic, Roman, lunar, and Persian months begin, other tables which give the position of planets at any given time, and still others facilitating the prediction of solar and lunar eclipses. He also compiled valuable tables of latitude and longitude.
Another important scholar was al-Bitruji, who developed a new theory of stellar movement, based on Aristotle’s thinking, in his Book of Form, a work that was later popular in the West. The names of many stars are still those given them by Muslim astronomers, such as Altair (from al-tair, “the flier”), Deneb (from dhanab, “tail”), and Betelgeuse (from bayt al-jawza, “the house of the twins” or “Gemini”). Other terms still in use today such as zenith, nadir, and azimuth are also derived from Arabic and so reflect the work of the Muslim astronomers of al-Andalus and their impact on the West.
Scientists of Islamic Spain also contributed to medicine, the Muslim science par excellence. Interest in medicine goes back to the very earliest times (the Prophet himself stated that there was a remedy for every illness), ” and although the greatest Muslim physicians practiced in Baghdad, those in al-Andalus made important contributions too. Ibn al-Nafis, for example, discovered the pulmonary circulation of blood.
During the tenth century in particular, al-Andalus produced a large number of excellent physicians, some of whom studied Greek medical works translated at the famous House of Wisdom in Baghdad. Among them was Ibn Shuhayd, who in a fundamental work recommended drugs be used only if the patient did not respond to diet and urged that only simple drugs be employed in all cases but the most serious. Another important figure was Abu al-Qasim al-Zahrawi, the most famous surgeon of the Middle Ages. Known in the West as Abulcasis and Al-bucasis, he was the author of the Tasrif, a book that, translated into Latin, became the leading medical text European universities during the later Middle Ages. Its section on surgery contains illustrations of surgical instruments of elegant, functional design and great precision.
Other chapters describe amputations, ophthalmic and dental surgery, and the treatment of wounds and fractures. Ibn Zuhr, known as Avenzoar, was the first to describe pericardial abscesses and to recommend tracheotomy when necessary as well as being a skilled practical physician, and Ibn Rushd wrote an important book on medical theories and precepts.
The list of Islamic Spain’s contributions to the West, in fact, is almost endless. In addition to Islamic Spain’s contributions in mathematics, economy, medicine, botany, geography, history, and philosophy, al-Andalus also developed and applied important technological innovations: the windmill and new techniques in the crafts of metalworking, weaving, and building.
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/ihame/Ref4.htm
Muslims also developed technological devices to aid in surgery, but their technological advances were certainly not limited to the medical field. Clocks, pumps, irrigation systems, astronomical equipment and mechanical toys were just a few of the items which these scholars improved or developed.[7]
Medieval Muslims made many more fascinating contributions to the history of science, though one of their most important was to do careful, systematic studies of the natural world, something the Greeks generally only discussed.
During the Middle Ages the Islamic World had a very significant impact upon Europe, which in turn cleared the way for the Renaissance and the Scientific Revolution. In the Medieval age, Islam and Muslims influenced Europe in a number of different ways. One of the most important of these subjects was Science.
Ever since Islam was born, Muslims had made immense leaps forward in the area of Science. Cities like Baghdad, Damascus, Cairo and Cordoba were the centers of civilization. These cities were flourishing and Muslim scientists made tremendous progress in applied as well as theoretical Science and Technology. In Europe, however, the situation was much different. Europe was in the Dark Ages. It had no infrastructure or central government. To the Muslims, Europe was backward, unorganized, carried no strategic importance and was essentially irrelevant.
Cordoba was the capital of Muslim Spain. It soon became the center for all light and learning for the entire Europe. Scholars and students from various parts of the world and Europe came to Cordoba to study. The contrast in intellectual activity is demonstrated best by one example: ‘In the ninth century, the library of the monastery of St. Gall was the largest in Europe. It boasted 36 volumes. At the same time, that of Cordoba contained over 500,000!’.
The idea of the college was a concept which was borrowed from Muslims. The first colleges appeared in the Muslim world in the late 600’s and early 700’s. In Europe, some of the earliest colleges are those under the University of Paris and Oxford they were founded around the thirteenth century. These early European colleges were also funded by trusts similar to the Islamic ones and legal historians have traced them back to the Islamic system. The internal organization of these European colleges was strikingly similar to the Islamic ones, for example the idea of Graduate (Sahib) and undergraduate (mutafaqqih) is derived directly from Islamic terms.
Islamic contributions to Science were now rapidly being translated and transferred from Spain to the rest of Europe. Ibnul Hairham’s works on Optics, (in which he deals with 50 Optical questions put to Muslim Scholars by the Franks), was translated widely. The Muslims discovered the Principle of Pendulum, which was used to measure time. Many of the principles of Isaac Newton were derived from former Islamic scientific contributions. In the field of Chemistry numerous Islamic works were translated into Latin. One of the fields of study in this area was alchemy. The Muslims by exploring various elements, developed a good understanding of the constitution of matter. Jabir ibn-Hayyan (Geber) was the leading chemist in the Muslim world, some scholars link the introduction of the ‘scientific method’ back to him. A great number of terms used in Chemistry such as alchohol, alembic, alkali and elixir are of Islamic origin. http://www.ais.org/~bsb/Herald/Previous/95/science.html
The Muslims were in fact the first to create an astronomical observatory as a scientific institution, this being the observatory of Maraghah in Persia established by al-Tusi. This was indirectly the model for the later European observatories. Many astronomical instruments were developed by Muslims to carry out observation, the most famous being the astrolabe. There existed even mechanical astrolabes perfected by Ibn Samh which must be considered as the ancestor of the mechanical clock. Astronomical observations also had practical applications including not only finding the direction of Makkah for prayers, but also devising almanacs (the word itself being of Arabic origin). The Muslims also applied their astronomical knowledge to questions of time-keeping and the calendar. The most exact solar calendar existing to this day is the Jalali calendar devised under the direction of ‘Umar Khayyam in the 12th century and still in use in Persia and Afghanistan.
http://cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/introduction/woi_knowledge.html
Re(9): Curing the symptoms
Posted “There has only been one occupying army that has ever been so careful not to desecrate holy shrines in their conquest, only one army that has naively tried to set up pluralist and representative government before leaving, and only one occupying army that has -left- and not turned the invaded land into a permanent colony, or absorbed it into the religiopolitical sphere of control. (Case History: See Constantinople)”
Hum you are unaware of the mass slaughter of American indians? You are unaware of the steps made by the US government to squash native religiouns and language? Until the 1970’s Indian children were removed by the government from their homes and forced into Christian homes, refused their native religion and language.
You have a very short sighted view of history, and very selective as well.
Re(3): Manners
Careful, Steve. I may have to beat you with the ‘be nice’ stick. 😀
We are guests here, and between the two of us, we’re flamethrowers in trench warfare. I think the least Mahmood can ask is for us to play nice – have an opinion, but not resort to personal attacks and nastiness.
I know it’s hard for me not to simply go off sometimes, and I apologise if I have done so in the past. (Which may have prompted the removal of the forums?)
Re(9): Curing the symptoms
Posted “During the early years of Christianity, Christians were persecuted far more than they are persecuted under even Islamic rule today.
Yet, they did not in any case promote killing unbelievers. Historically, those verses (Surah 2 and 9 are traditionally later verses) were the last to be written – when Islam was powerful – so what you just said is a bare-faced lie. Islam didn’t need armed Jihad to survive. ”
No, Christianity waited until it came to power to start the mass murder. By the 4th century of Christianity Christians were killing other Christians and pagans in full swing. The history of religious conflict in Christianity knows no equal in history. There is nothing in the Islam world that can compare to the millions killed in centuries of religious war in Europe alone. Give me a break. The town I was born in in Germany was almost completely destroyed during hundreds of years of religious wars. At one point more than 50% of the town was killed. This knows no equal in history.
Posted “Because, obviously, no actual Muslims write books or websites delving into the minutae of their religion. ”
Talking of bold faced lies. The web is full of them. You just either dont look, or refuse to admit their existance. Kind of like you saying that Islam cannot reform. Tell that to the many groups out there promoting Islamic reform. Ethan, for an acedemic, you allow your own personal hate to cloud you vision too much.
Re(9): Curing the symptoms
Posted “During the early years of Christianity, Christians were persecuted far more than they are persecuted under even Islamic rule today.
Yet, they did not in any case promote killing unbelievers. Historically, those verses (Surah 2 and 9 are traditionally later verses) were the last to be written – when Islam was powerful – so what you just said is a bare-faced lie. Islam didn’t need armed Jihad to survive. ”
No, Christianity waited until it came to power to start the mass murder. By the 4th century of Christianity Christians were killing other Christians and pagans in full swing. The history of religious conflict in Christianity knows no equal in history. There is nothing in the Islam world that can compare to the millions killed in centuries of religious war in Europe alone. Give me a break. The town I was born in in Germany was almost completely destroyed during hundreds of years of religious wars. At one point more than 50% of the town was killed. This knows no equal in history.
Posted “Because, obviously, no actual Muslims write books or websites delving into the minutae of their religion. ”
Talking of bold faced lies. The web is full of them. You just either dont look, or refuse to admit their existance. Kind of like you saying that Islam cannot reform. Tell that to the many groups out there promoting Islamic reform. Ethan, for an acedemic, you allow your own personal hate to cloud your vision too much.
Re(4): Manners
I apologise as well. I felt bad when I saw that had happened. I know those forums seemed like they belonged on a “Ethan/Malik/Steve” website and not on Mahmoods. I also understand that Mahmood lives in an area of the world where even the most basic statement could have him in hot water. I am sorry if I have caused any issues.
Re(5): Manners
Thank you all for that. There is nothing I appreciate and enjoy more than good, lively debate, but when people start slinging mud at each other, the debate descends then into chaos and all the gains of possible rapparoachment are wasted.
That’s why I chose to disable the forums for the moment, I thought everyone needed some time to pull back and relax a little.
I want to create a place here for engendering and progressing friendships and good debates, not somewhere were rants rule the day.
I have learnt an awful lot from everybody who commented and maintained a presence here. I hope I will continue to. Because I view you all as good friends visiting my home and I am enriched by knowing you.
Now that things – hopefully – had calmed down a bit, I re-enable the forums.
Enjoy and remember to take a breather once in a while.
Invaders
Malik,
[quote]Hum you are unaware of the mass slaughter of American indians? [/quote]
It’s kind of pointless to judge what happened a few hundred years ago with modern standards. We’ve all progressed in our outlook. In modern times, the US has not kept any country it invaded and occupied. It tried to set up representative governments. Compare that to the Soviets or to the Chinese Communists who swallowed up Tibet.
And the people of this continent were hardly saints. They waged war against each other, skinned people alive, and made thousands of human sacrifices. They had no problem slaughtering each other en masse when the whim arose.
Aliandra
Re(6): Manners
Thanks Mahmood. I am sure you will be relieved to know I am in the process of starting a website myself. I do not know whether I will do a blog or not. Seems a fair amount of work, and I can be flaky and not want to be bothered for days on end.
We havent seen any pictures from you in awhile. I have missed them. I liked the one you took from the building in Dubai. It looks like we might have found some help with our issues with the Saudi Embassy. Hate to admit it, but it is wasta, as usual. If we are able to head to Saudi it would be this fall. I’d love to take you out for a drink. All hard feelings aside.
Re(11): Curing the symptoms
You use a book that no longer exists for reference? Interesting.
Re(7): Curing the symptoms
Malik,
[quote]Why did Spain descend into the dark ages after the Muslims left [/quote]
Spain did not descend into the Dark Ages after the Muslims (and Jews) left. Granada fell in 1492 – it was the same year of Columbus’ voyage. The discovery of the New World and the subsequent colonization made Spain one of the greatest political and economic powers of the time.
Aliandra
Re(6): Manners
Of course, I’m teasing you, Mahmoodski, though it may not come across in print. I’m weary of the flaming, too, which is part of the reason why I have pulled back in the last week or so. I’d like to give some room for some other voices to pop up. Basically, this is now a conversation between three American guys. Who needs that? I can get that walking down the street here.
I’d like to hear more from some Middle Eastern folks. Where’s Hassan from Cairo? Where’s Jasra been hiding? What about all those lurkers who have something to say but can’t quite bring themselves to cross the threshhold? Every time I log in there’s at least a hundred folks viewing the site, day or night. They have ideas worth posting.
I think we’d all get more out of this if we backed off a bit and let some other folks jump in to add some seasoning and flavor and variety. We should bring the emotional tone down a bit, too. By that, I expect you all to do as I say, not as I do. I promise to take a more measured approach in hopes we’ll get a better dialogue going here.
Taking A Big Breath,
Steve
Re(7): Curing the symptoms
Posted “1967? You mean when Egypt, Jordan and Syria attempted to ethnically cleanse away Israel with the help of Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Algeria? ”
Steve, Israel, I believe is a nation that had no legitimate right to be founded. Having said that, I am a pragmatist, and believe Israel has a right to exist. How would you feel if a group of Indians used a 2,000 year old claim to try and take over your house here in Virginia? Would you fight it? Would you be upset if people came in from West Virginia to support your fight? I didnt think so.
Saudi Arabia has never sent troops to fight Israel, mores the pity. Sudan? Algeria? Give me a break. The only major forces involved were Egypt, Sryia, Iraq and Jordan.
Non of this really matters. Israeli ethnicalll cleansed the Palestinians, they have a right to return, full stop. I support a negotiated settlement where only 10,000 Palestinians a year can come back. Those who choose not to do so would be given restitution, based on modern value of the land, from which they were expelled. You’ll find most Palestinians wouldnt want to go back. Just give them the right to. Grant them citizenships in the countries where they are now, give them their money.
Re(8): Curing the symptoms
Posted “Spain did not descend into the Dark Ages after the Muslims (and Jews) left. Granada fell in 1492 – it was the same year of Columbus’ voyage. The discovery of the New World and the subsequent colonization made Spain one of the greatest political and economic powers of the time.
Aliandra ”
I am sure that didnt mean much to the hundreds of thousands of people killed in the Inquisition, that highlight of Spain after Muslim rule. I am sure it didnt mean much to the tens of thousands of Jews and Muslims forced to convert or die. But the pogroms against the Jews certainly did help the Islamic world. The education and skills the Jews brought to the Muslim world, where the Jews fled for safety, were greatly appreciated.
Care to tell us what happened in the lands found by Columbus and later explores? Did the lands they find receive any of this enlightenment you talk about?
Palies
[quote]How does the Jewish claim “stand strong” and the Palestinian one not? [/quote]
A good piece of logic and I don’t see how it can be justified either.
Aliandra
Re(7): Manners
hear hear
Re: Palies
Posted “Quote:How does the Jewish claim “stand strong” and the Palestinian one not?
A good piece of logic and I don’t see how it can be justified either.
Aliandra ”
The solution is to be fair and pragmatic. Okay, I dont believe Israel had the right to be formed. But it was, fact, and it isnt going anywhere, fact. I think what happened to the Palestinians was wrong. Until this is addressed there will be no peace, fact. The Jews should have been given a portion of Germany, not Palestine. The Palestinians did nothing to the Jews, so why should they have suffered? Without the Holocaust it wouldnt have been an issue.
Solution. Arabs and Palestinians accept the right of Israel to exist in peace, and this offer has been made many times, shown in anonymous votes in the Arab League. Israelis admit a small amount of Palestinians back to the lands every year, say 5,000-10,000. For the majority of Palestinians that do not want to go back, a commision should be set up to asses claims to land. Any Palestinian that can show this commission that they owned land pre 1967 should be given fair market value for such land.
I dont really believe any of this will happen, but it is a good idea. I think the Arabs are far more likely to accept Israel than Israel is too accept the right of any Palestinians to return.
Re(7): Manners
Steve writes “Basically, this is now a conversation between three American guys. Who needs that? I can get that walking down the street here. ”
Point well made.
Curing the symptoms
I meant to post this yesterday, but the site was down. It’s not meant to be a coda to a conversation – but I will join with Steve (and perhaps Malik) in keeping my rampant posting down. 😀
[/quote]There are books written on the subject, consult the experts. I am not even close to an expert. Dont you think if you were really interested in the subject or an educated Muslim viewpoint of it you would read the books by those out there? I suggest you are not in the least bit interested in reading anything that might challanges you views. [/quote]
I’m certainly sorry, Malik, for considering you an authority on the subject because you speak at length about it. You are quick to defend your faith with the zeal of ages, but I have come to find that that is all there is. More the pity.
I know more than a few Muslims – please don’t generalize. I happen to prefer coming to Mahmood’s blog because he is an impeccable fellow, and certainly brave enough to allow even ‘people like Ethan and Steve’ to air their views on his blog. I find such to be gracious and also very hospitable – considering that most of his neighbors in the global sense would be unwinding their turbans to contain the vitriol arrayed against dissenting opinions.
I guess, perhaps I expected a lot – I remember one conversation that I followed – I believe it was on islamicity.com, though it has slipped my mind at present – where there was a conversation between an African American imam who was desperate to save a few of his members. They had read in the Koran that God allowed for slavery. Being black themselves, and apparently well-versed in history, they left the Mosque, never to return – under the argument that their ancestors were brought into slavery by the same religion that they had joined. On this particular thread, they had bumped into an American convert to Islam, who claimed that he’d joined the deen because it was ‘a faith for winners’ – and that he was pleased that God would allow him his choice of slaves when Kuffar ‘Amerika’ was overthrown by the ‘brothers’ (likely including himself). The Imam and the Jihadi had it out, quoting scripture at each other until they were blue in the face, but in every instance the poor Imam was outclassed, in my opinion. He left, simply stating that the Jihadi ‘was not speaking for Islam’.
I never knew what happened to that poor boy. With any luck he’s dead in a ditch somewhere in Fallujah. ‘Paradise’ is his.
What stuck with me, more than anything, was the strength of the Jihadi arguments. This was well before I came here to the Den, and well before I really started to forment my opinions on Islam. I had once thought that Islam was the same as Christianity – a mysterious faith based religion, prone to hijack by people who could twist some obscure wording. I had known that Islam claimed to be the follow up to Christianity (Much like Mormonism) – but that was about it.
Through this argument, I’d seen that Islam is legalistic – too legalistic. Like a lawyer, a Mullah or Shaykh takes parts of the code that serves his purposes and builds a case, rendering a legal opinion as judge, jury and executioner – a fatwa. All Islamic school is is legal law school – and as we can see in the US, there are no people more a shylock than a lawyer – and Islam as a religion is chock full of the dirtiest, scummiest, most murderous lawyers that have ever been made. The Ayatollah Kohmeni has written many odious fatwas concerning permissable bestiality and pedophilia. Qaradawi himself has promoted legalized murder of just about anyone who can be kangaroo-court-ed into an ‘occupier’ or ‘conspirator’. Al-Sadr’s legal opinions have allowed students to be beaten and whipped in Basrah (to death in some cases) for the ‘crime’ of speaking to women! This isn’t even touching the opinions of those who would tie Saudi Arabia’s people into a culturo-religious knot.
Catholicism has the Pope – one voice who sets the standard for all of the faithful. He is infallible only in matters of faith – but is fallible as a human in other ways. Islam has no pope. It has no ‘bar association’. As Mahmood said: ‘any twit with a turban’ can be a ‘lawyer’.
These lawyers are not just those who argue the case. They present the -case law-, and have done so for 1400 years. There is over a millennium of worthless trash rulings on everything from how to wipe your ass to how to dye your beard. But then again, there are scary rulings, on things like ‘how to kill Infidels’ and ‘how to wage war’. All of this legalistic mumbo jumbo is based on the sayings and the life of one man. A fallable man. A man who was not sinless, and who was not perfect. A man who claimed to speak for God – but produced zero evidence of such a connection.
And you wonder, Malik, why I am so strident in my attacks and my defense? I’m being a lawyer – as every Mohammed, Abu whoever and Ibn something or other before me has been a lawyer. You want to live by the spirit of the law. How is that better than the letter of the law? What is to stop people from adhering to the ‘easy way’ of traditional literalism rather than the harder ‘Sufi way’ of spiritualism?
There will always be extremists, Malik. Today, they rule your religion. One can say that today’s ‘extremists’ were yesterday’s ‘status quo’. Bin Laden, the Muslim Brotherhood, the Taleban even you all have the same ideals. You want Islam to return to its roots. You want a strengthening of the religion because you desperately believe that ‘only if we went back to the books’ things would be better and we will show the world that Islam is a perfect system.
The deviation in your thought processes comes about with interpretation of those books. An Al-Zawahiri would push for absolute, strict literalism, and you push for a re-interpretation. History has shown time and time again that literalism is the wrong way – but it is the easier and most popular way.
The fight for the soul of Islam has to begin at home. It has to begin with -you- Malik. You cannot stick your head in the sand and point to people smarter than you to make your arguments for you. That’s exactly why Islam is in the state it’s in. People have let others speak for them rather than using their heads! If you want Islam to reform, then you have to be an expert – because everyone who is on the other side of the battlefield is already an expert – and they are poised to win – even in a laid back place like Bahrain.
Curing the symptoms
Sorry Mahmood, my original comment was way out of line. I don’t know if my second counted as an apology, but it was meant to be. I enjoy this blog because it is civil, sorry for not living up to my end of the bargin.
Mike in the US
Re(8): Curing the symptoms
[quote]Are you truly unaware of everything below? Does your hatred of Islam and Muslims keep you from admitting that Islam has had a great role in the world? I am sure you will find some way to explain away everything below. You must to keep your hatred of Islam flowing…. [/quote]
I will do my best to connect the threads in a meaningful way!
First point – Arabic Numerals and Algebra are Indian inventions. Sanskrit’s numbering system well predates Islam, and it is the basis for the ‘arabic’ numerals.
On other points, particulary medicine, I stand corrected. I am willing to admit defeat on the point that Muslims did have scientific advancement during that time. Interesting to note that the culture was amenable to it during those times as well. Averroes wasn’t exactly devout.
Between Al-Khwarizmi (770 – 840 C.E.) and Nasir Al-Din Al-Tusi (1201 – 1274 C.E.) lies a span of about 400 years – mathematically, I see nothing much more than Algebra there. In the span of 300 years in Europe’s enlightenment, Euler, Lagrange, Liebniz, and Newton developed Calculus and Physics from basically the same material. Why didn’t this happen in Muslim lands?
Re(2): Curing the symptoms
Malik
My youngest daughters godfather and my best friend practices christianity as it was in the 1st century. Unfourtantly it would make him a target to many extremest as there is very little difference between what he practices and Judism. I will get the sects website and post it for you to study.
billT
Re(9): Curing the symptoms
Malik,
During the conquest of Spain, the ruler Musa destroyed every church and broke every bell. How about the plunderering of Spanish churches afterward? How about the religious persecutions in India in the 8th century? Or the Almohads in North Africa and Spain who persecuted Christians and Jews in the 12th? Care to tell me about the enlightenment Islam’s “golden age” brought to them?
I am using the standard definition of “dark ages”, a time of intellectual, economic, and political weakness. The term does not apply to Spain after the fall of Granada.
Aliandra
Re: Curing the symptoms
Posted “I’m certainly sorry, Malik, for considering you an authority on the subject because you speak at length about it. You are quick to defend your faith with the zeal of ages, but I have come to find that that is all there is. More the pity. ”
I defend my faith sure. It doesnt make me an expert. I give you the answers I can based on what I know, and when I dont know, I feel free to tell you that.
Posted “I know more than a few Muslims – please don’t generalize.”
Your opinions and ideas about Muslims and Islam do not reflect this.
Posted “I happen to prefer coming to Mahmood’s blog because he is an impeccable fellow, and certainly brave enough to allow even ‘people like Ethan and Steve’ to air their views on his blog. I find such to be gracious and also very hospitable – considering that most of his neighbors in the global sense would be unwinding their turbans to contain the vitriol arrayed against dissenting opinions.”
Your statement goes to further what I said above. The fact that you have to come to the web to find a Muslim with whom you feel safe enough to talk with means you do not have much interaction with Muslims in your community. There are a wide range of beliefs, ideas, and levels of faith out there. The fact that you have to come to the web to find a Muslim that is “gracious and hospitable” means that you do not have any significant interaction with Muslims where you live. There are “gracious and hospitable” Muslims everywhere, if you cannot find them, you are not looking.
Posted “I guess, perhaps I expected a lot – I remember one conversation that I followed – I believe it was on islamicity.com,”
Again, why no real world interaction with Muslims? Is your only experience with Muslims based on the internet? If so, if would explain a lot of your opinions.
Posted “where there was a conversation between an African American imam who was desperate to save a few of his members. They had read in the Koran that God allowed for slavery. Being black themselves, and apparently well-versed in history, they left the Mosque, never to return”
A bit odd when you consider the Judeo Christianity allows for slavery as well. Did they all go off to become Budhists? Is there no history of slavery in Budhist countries?
Posted ” On this particular thread, they had bumped into an American convert to Islam, who claimed that he’d joined the deen because it was ‘a faith for winners’ – and that he was pleased that God would allow him his choice of slaves when Kuffar ‘Amerika’ was overthrown by the ‘brothers’ (likely including himself).
Once again Ethan, I find it rather sad that you cannot have any real world interaction with Muslims and are forced to turn to the internet to talk about any interaction you have had with Muslims. Why dont you tell me where you live and I can arrange to have a tour given to you at a local Mosque where you will meet real live Muslims, not a screen name.
Posted ” The Imam and the Jihadi had it out, quoting scripture at each other until they were blue in the face, but in every instance the poor Imam was outclassed, in my opinion. He left, simply stating that the Jihadi ‘was not speaking for Islam’. ”
Again, it is sad that you are basing your opinions based on interactions on-line. You assume this person was an Imam, infact he could have been anyone off the street for all you know. You assume this was a Jihadi, infact they could have been any idiot trying to make Islam look bad. The fact is you wouldnt have a clue. They could have, infact, been the same person arguing with themselves. You just dont know. That is why real world contact with people CANNOT be replaced by the internet.
Posted “I never knew what happened to that poor boy. With any luck he’s dead in a ditch somewhere in Fallujah. ‘Paradise’ is his.”
You dont even have a clue if this “poor boy” even existed. He was nothing more than a screen name to you. Even more sad that you wish death upon people. Good thing is, there is a high probability he doesnt even exist.
Posted “What stuck with me, more than anything, was the strength of the Jihadi arguments. This was well before I came here to the Den, and well before I really started to forment my opinions on Islam. I had once thought that Islam was the same as Christianity – a mysterious faith based religion, prone to hijack by people who could twist some obscure wording. I had known that Islam claimed to be the follow up to Christianity (Much like Mormonism) – but that was about it. ”
Your problem is, as it is very clear, that you do not know any real Muslims and do not interact with them on a daily basis. If you did you wouldn’t resort to what is honestly a pretty pathetic example about talking to Muslims online. You have not allowed for any diversity of opinion. I would love to know what your reading list is like concerning Islam and Islamic history. I hope it is much more than “talking to some ‘Muslims” online.
Posted “Through this argument, I’d seen that Islam is legalistic – too legalistic.”
I would agree with you here. Sometimes it can be. I think a lot is lost in this approach. Although I will state that what is lost can be found elsewhere if one looks. The legalism makes the religion seem like a heartless set of rules, when one looks at the ideas of the Sufis, however, this is not the case. It is often argued that Sufis are the heart of Islam. I would agree, although I have some differences with their approach to the role that some rituals need to take in our lives.
Posted “Like a lawyer, a Mullah or Shaykh takes parts of the code that serves his purposes and builds a case, rendering a legal opinion as judge, jury and executioner – a fatwa.”
Indeed, this is a problem in all religions. I used to have major dragged out arugments with my brother, an evangelical Christian, because they ignore all sorts of issues in their religion, whilst making other issues more important. They have an idea, they look for any scripture or tradition that might support it, and damn the rest. Hardly an Islamic fault. It has a long history in Christianity.
Posted “All Islamic school is is legal law school – and as we can see in the US, there are no people more a shylock than a lawyer – and Islam as a religion is chock full of the dirtiest, scummiest, most murderous lawyers that have ever been made.”
Nice insults Ethan. I thought we have agreed to lower the rhetoric? I think calling people names like that does not further the discussion.
Posted “The Ayatollah Kohmeni has written many odious fatwas concerning permissable bestiality and pedophilia.”
Being a Sunni and a Muslim, I am under no obligation to do anything but sit back and laugh at some of the stuff that Kohmeni did. A edicts of a Shi’a cleric hardly speak for all of Islam.
Posted “Qaradawi himself has promoted legalized murder of just about anyone who can be kangaroo-court-ed into an ‘occupier’ or ‘conspirator’.”
Again, I am not Catholic, nor am I Shi’a. I am under no obligation to follow anyone’s teachings.
Posted “Al-Sadr’s legal opinions have allowed students to be beaten and whipped in Basrah (to death in some cases) for the ‘crime’ of speaking to women!”
Again, I am not Shi’a, I am Sunni. I do not believe that I have to follow one leader or another. That idea is one of the main seperating points of Shi’a and Sunni Islam. What as-Sadr says or does means nothing for me. He doesnt speak for a majority of Iraqi Shi’a, let alone all of the Shi’a or Islam.
Posted “This isn’t even touching the opinions of those who would tie Saudi Arabia’s people into a culturo-religious knot. ”
You will not ever met(as you seem to like to ‘met’ Muslims online) a Muslim that is more anti al-Saud than I am. I blast them here, and in real life(the important place to have interactions) all of the time. Their actions are not Islamic and do not even speak for a majority of those that would call themselves “fundamentalists” let alone for all of Islam.
Posted “Catholicism has the Pope – one voice who sets the standard for all of the faithful. He is infallible only in matters of faith – but is fallible as a human in other ways. Islam has no pope. It has no ‘bar association’. As Mahmood said: ‘any twit with a turban’ can be a ‘lawyer’. ”
This is one of the reasons I left Christianity. I do not believe anyone can tell me what I need to do to follow God, or what my interaction with God needs to be. I dont need an Ayatollah to tell me, nor do I need a Pope. I need God’s words, I need the Prophet’s(SAW) Sunnah and I need my conscience, that is it. Any twit can be a lawyer, and any child molester can be a priest, and anybody can buy a certificate and claim to be a preacher.
Posted “These lawyers are not just those who argue the case. They present the -case law-, and have done so for 1400 years. There is over a millennium of worthless trash rulings on everything from how to wipe your ass to how to dye your beard. But then again, there are scary rulings, on things like ‘how to kill Infidels’ and ‘how to wage war’. All of this legalistic mumbo jumbo is based on the sayings and the life of one man. A fallable man. A man who was not sinless, and who was not perfect. A man who claimed to speak for God – but produced zero evidence of such a connection. ”
Produced zero evidence of such a connection for YOU Ethan, for YOU. That is the key world. For over one billion Muslims he did. That is the part you fail to see Ethan. For all of your claim of tolerance you simply cannot understand why, if you reject something, why other people would not. Get used to it.
Posted “And you wonder, Malik, why I am so strident in my attacks and my defense?”
I think it is due to ignorance and lack of interaction with real Muslims. I think you consult the books and materials that support your ideas and ignore those that do not. I think you limit your interaction with Muslims to those online, who might or might not really be Muslims. You dont know, you never really met them. I think you lack experience and valid interaction in the real world. For all of your online bluster, it does not substitute for real world interaction with people. Get a life outside the net. Interact with real people, in real situations.
Posted “I’m being a lawyer – as every Mohammed, Abu whoever and Ibn something or other before me has been a lawyer. You want to live by the spirit of the law. How is that better than the letter of the law? What is to stop people from adhering to the ‘easy way’ of traditional literalism rather than the harder ‘Sufi way’ of spiritualism? ”
What is to stop them from doing both?
Posted “There will always be extremists, Malik”
Yes, count yourself amoungst them.
Posted “Today, they rule your religion.”
They do not. Sure it is an issue, but if the extremist ruled our religion, being that there is over 1 billion of us in the world, things would be MUCH worse than they are now.
Posted “One can say that today’s ‘extremists’ were yesterday’s ‘status quo’. Bin Laden, the Muslim Brotherhood, the Taleban even you all have the same ideals.”
Time for Steve to have a drink, I have now been called Bin Laden and the Taliban.
Posted “You want Islam to return to its roots.”
Yes, and no. I want to get back to the time before all of the cultural nonsense was added to our religion. I want to get back to the Islam where the Prophet(SAW) was a great social reformed. He banned women from being buried alive, as was the custom at the time. He granted women the right to divorce and property rights, something truly radical at his time. It is after his death that much of the followers of Islam went back to following practices that we outlawed. I want the ability to judge things today based on his teachings. An extremist would, and do think, that if it wasnt there at the time of the Prophet it isnt valid. Hence extremists often wont use silverware, watch TV, use the internet, have Air Conditioning. This is all nonsense. This is where Ijtihad comes into play. Judging the rules and The Book based on the realities of today. An extremist would never say this.
Posted “You want a strengthening of the religion because you desperately believe that ‘only if we went back to the books’ things would be better and we will show the world that Islam is a perfect system.”
If we got back to the spirit of Islam, as practiced during the life of the Prophet(SAW) Islam would strengthen itself.
Posted “The deviation in your thought processes comes about with interpretation of those books.”
YOU think this is a deviation. This is what YOU think. Once again, you fail to understand that people can and do have ideas and understandings that you do not agree with. I am not an extremist, and because of this YOU claim I am comitting a “deviation”. I am telling you that this is not the case. Your understanding of Islam and Muslims is way off. But now at least I know why. Your understanding of Islam and Muslims is based on your interactions online. If this is not the case, why cannot you point to any real life interaction with Muslims? The best you can do is point to numerous interactions online. Do you realise how messed up of a picture this gives you? Not to mention how sad this makes you look?
Posted ” An Al-Zawahiri would push for absolute, strict literalism, and you push for a re-interpretation. History has shown time and time again that literalism is the wrong way – but it is the easier and most popular way. ”
Of course I push for a re-interpretation. Why would I want to completely follow the judgements and ruling of those who came before? I am a thinking and reasoning person. Myself, and others much more qualified, can take the ideas of people from the past, look at the The Qur’an and Sunnah itself, mix it with current situations and thoughts and come with a clear vision for how things should be today. In a nutshell this is what Christianity did, this is what Islam can and is doing.
Posted “The fight for the soul of Islam has to begin at home. It has to begin with -you- Malik.”
I am doing the best with the resources and the time I have. I work 60+ hours a week, have two kids, with a third one on the way. I still find time to go to the gym and Mosque and do some charity work. My life and the way I live it is how I am begining it. I am considering starting a web site to promote my ideas, although there is already a lot out there. What, exactly, are you doing, besides debating ‘Muslims’ on-line? Hint Ethan, there is a real world out there, join it.
Posted ” You cannot stick your head in the sand and point to people smarter than you to make your arguments for you. That’s exactly why Islam is in the state it’s in.”
I am doing the best I can Ethan. There will always be people who know more than I do. I do not have the time to devote my whole life to doing nothing more than studying religion. I have a life, I have responsibilities. I would like to think I am doing a rather good job at the moment. I only get, on average, about four hours of sleep a night, but I accomplish a lot.
Posted “People have let others speak for them rather than using their heads! If you want Islam to reform, then you have to be an expert ”
Sure, can I send my bills to you? Can I send my children to you to help with their homework? Can I have you attend in my stead at work, the Mosque and doing charity? Heck, while I am at it, can you go to the gym for me several times a week? I do not know what your life is like, but it is pretty clear you do not have children, a family, or any responsibilities outside your job. Your problem Ethan, at its roots, is the inability to understand or relate to other people or believe that other people can and do have opinions that are different than yours and are just as valid as yours.
Posted “because everyone who is on the other side of the battlefield is already an expert – and they are poised to win – even in a laid back place like Bahrain.”
We have our experts as well. I suggest you look up people like Omid Safi, Khaled Abu al Fadl, Farid Eack, Ahmet Karamustafa, Ibrahim Moosa, Tazin Kassam, Sa’diyya Shaikh, Kecia Ali, Scott Siraj al Haqq Kugle, Amir Hussain, Ahmad Moussailli and Farish Noor. There are a lot of experts out there, progressive Muslims who are academics for a living. Not everyone can be an expert.
Omid Safi said “An Essential part of the progressive Ijtihad is to account for and challenge the great impovershment of thought and spirit brought fourth by Muslim literalist-exclusivists……It is time to translate the social ideas in the Qur’an and Islamic teachings in a way that those of us commited to social justice today can relate to and understand…The time has come to stand up and be counted. As Muslims and as human beings, we stand up to those who perpetuate hate in the name of Islam. We stand up to those whose God is a vengeful moster in the sky issuing death decrees against the Muslim and the non-Muslim alike. We stand up to those whose God is too small, too mean, too tribal, and too male…….Too all of these, we say: not in our name, not in the saem of my God will you commit this hatred, this violence. We stand by the Qur’anic teaching (5:32) that to save the life of one human being is to have save the life of all humanity, and to take a life is to have taken the life of all humanity. That which you do to my fellow human beings you do to me……And yet again we recall that ours is a multiple critique, one of engaging and challenging all of the ideologies and institutions of injustice and inequality in the various communities in which we find ourselves. This means standing up to those who benefit from Western hegemony over the rest of the world. The time has come for us to stand up to those who look at the world, not as a single human family, but as ‘us’ verses ‘them’……The time has come to stand up to those who are rightly outraged at the murder of innocent civilians in the USA and allied countries, but easily dismiss the murder of innocent civilians in other countries as ‘unfortunate collateral damage’. The time has come, and that time is now. We cannot start committing social justice tomorrow, because the tomarrow of social justice is the tomorrow of ‘I will loose fifteen pounds’: it will never come. There is only one today. We are, as the Sufis say, the children of the present (ibn al waqt).”
[Modified by: Malik (celticview) on March 24, 2005 12:33 PM]
Re(3): Curing the symptoms
My youngest daughters godfather and my best friend practices christianity as it was in the 1st century. Unfourtantly it would make him a target to many extremest as there is very little difference between what he practices and Judism. I will get the sects website and post it for you to study.”
Well, that is where their faith comes into play. I think they have it right. So much of modern Christianity has been added in the last 1,500 years.
Re: Curing the symptoms
No worries Mike.
Curing the symptoms
Anon of March 23, 2005 11:31
If the United States handed Saddam the “throne” to dictacte the futre of around 25 million people, then the United States has an obligation to the people of Iraq to destroy him.
I will not jerk the knee towards you, although my family tradition holds disdain for people who are Anglo (you dirty british bastard), Saxon (even worse) and a Prodestant (the ultimate evil). (I hope you are laughing, because I am joking)
You are correct that most of the soldiers in Iraq would rather be at home, but the majority do not vote for the Dem’s. The party of the people left the people behind.
Please post your name or something so I do not have to address you as Anon.
Curing the symptoms
That last post was from Mike in the US. (I forgot to add my name after I asked you to leave yours 🙂
Re: Curing the symptoms
you could also register and that will give you the chance to edit your posts if you need to!
Re(1): Curing the symptoms
“If it had been the will of your Lord that all the people of the world should be believers, all the people of the earth would have believed! Would you then compel mankind against their will to believe?”
The Holy Quran, 10:99
Re(7): Curing the symptoms
Lets see how the Saudis buy America……
Caviar for Colin
US News & World Report, page 6 and 7
“Few countries can bankroll a lavish party like Saudi Arabia, and Saudi Ambassador Prince Bandar bin Sultan bin Abdulaziz’s recent retirement dinner for former Saudi Secretary of State Colin Powel really set the gold standard. Just consider the vats of caviar on the tables of Bandar’s Potomac riverfront home. “The Beluga caviar at my table,� said one partygoer, “would have bought my automobile 30 times over.� Guests washed that down with Dom Perignon and puffed on real Cuban stogies as Roberta Flack crooned “Killing Me Softly.� The tipster said the scene was “almost obscene.�
This type of event is typical of how the Saudi Royal Family does its business. We call on all US officials, current and retired, from the highest to the lowest ranks, to boycott events like these to avoid all appearances of possible conflicts of interest and favoritism for the Saudi Royals by the US Government. Ambassador Mark Palmer explained at The Center’s February 24 conference: “In fact, he [Prince Bandar] represents a very evil force, which is actively engaged in activity against the basic interests of the American people. He should be seen as the enemy, as a criminal, not as a distinguished diplomat.� Attending a lavish dinner organized by anyone who is ‘actively engaged in activity against the basic interests’ of the United States, the international community, and the Saudi people, should be the last thing on the minds of anyone, especially US diplomats and (former) government representatives.
– Dr. Ali
Re(2): Palies
Posted “What sweethearts those people are! Better for the Palies to suffer under occupation than to dismantle an argument. Palies get treated like rabble wherever they go and their Arab brethen, who purport to care for their welfare, have no use for them beyond their ability to kill Jews.
Right of return? It’s been 50 years. Other than Palies who were actually living there at the time, I don’t see how this claim is going to stand strong for the rest of ’em.
-Aliandra”
I dont agree with the actions of the Arab neighbors, I was simply giving you their stated reasons. As to the right of return, how is it that a Jew, in New York or Las Vegas, who has never been to the Middle East, and whose ancestors havent been there for 2,000 years(if ever), has a right of return and full citizenship, yet a Palestinian one generation out does not? A Palestinian who likely still has the legal deed to his family’s land? How does the Jewish claim “stand strong” and the Palestinian one not?
How can anyone support such injustice?
Malik
Re(6): Curing the symptoms
[quote]
Are you saying that after these places were absorbed into the Islamic world these sciences did not grow?
[/quote]
Yes. There was precious little development beyond the basics. Where was the Islamic Lebniz, or Newton? Why did Euclid’s elements form the basis of advanced science in the muslim world long after it’d been surpassed in the west?
[quote]
Nothing? Wow, I guess you could say that about the Japanese whose greatest skill is taking items from other people and making them better. if your theory is true then the science within the Islamic community would have completely died about after they came to these countries! Why did it flourish for hundreds of years afterward?
[/quote]
The Japanese ‘make it better’.
The Muslim world ‘kept it the same without innovation’. Innovation might challenge religiolegal precepts.
[quote]
Why did Spain descend into the dark ages after the Muslims left when it was known as a light to the world and a center of learning when Islam was there?
[/quote]
Malik, your ‘Andalucia’ is a lie. The reason why there was an invasion was due to the mistreatment of non-muslims under the Moroccan tribal rule that had taken over from the more ‘tolerant’ (but not much more so, there was still Jizyah) rulership.
Oh, and after Spain got back land that belonged to them? Dark ages? Oh.. you mean expelling all of the Muslims or converting them? To toss a tu quoque in your face, Mohammed ordered the same done with regards to the holy cities and the peninsula.
[quote]There have been Muslim Cosmologists.[/quote]
[b]In the view of the Muslim cosmolo-gists, these two categories of names work in harmony to bring the cosmos into existence.
As a result, many Muslim thinkers, the cosmologists in particular, see everything in the universe as a reflection of the divine names and attributes.[/b]
I see you have fallen into equating “Cosmology”, a subset of Astrophysics, with ‘Cosmology
Re(1): Curing the symptoms
[quote]I defend my faith sure. It doesnt make me an expert. I give you the answers I can based on what I know, and when I dont know, I feel free to tell you that. [/quote]
Though I realize that time is at a premium for you (it is for myself as well!) it may be instructive to do some research on your own so that the box labeled ‘what Malik knows’ can overflow with information. Your ability to speak Arabic is certainly an advantage that I do not have.
[quote]Your statement goes to further what I said above. The fact that you have to come to the web to find a Muslim with whom you feel safe enough to talk with means you do not have much interaction with Muslims in your community. [/quote]
The current community that I live in is particularly poor in the number of Muslims availible. We do have a large Ba’hai group on campus here (not Islam, but an offshoot of in the very least.) This was not always so. At my college and graduate school, I did work with Muslims and talked to more than a few – from a Palestinian who disliked the Arab world for playing the Palestinians as fools, to a rich Kuwaiti whose family lost just about everything they owned in the invasion, to a Moroccan who left school to go home after Sept 11, because he couldn’t stand to be in a country that ‘oppressed him’ – a single racial profiling incident.
[quote]This is one of the reasons I left Christianity. I do not believe anyone can tell me what I need to do to follow God, or what my interaction with God needs to be.[/quote]
Most sects outside the Catholic/Apostolic tradition do not have a church hierarchy. It can be safely said that a large number of Christians in the US, and even across the world also believe as you do, yet feel no need to convert. Jesus did say ‘when two or three are gathered in my name, I am with them’ – and only taught the single prayer – the ‘our father’. Jesus prescribed no rituals by with God must be worshipped. Those are human inventions.
Contrast with Islam, in which what you have to do to follow God and your interaction with God is prescribed fairly rigidly – pray 5 times a day, give zakat, vacation in sunny Mecca, etc. The five pillars.
I do not understand how that rigidity is preferable to a completely open system given your thoughts ([i]I do not believe anyone can tell me what I need to do to follow God, or what my interaction with God needs to be.[/i]) on the subject.
[quote]Produced zero evidence of such a connection for YOU Ethan, for YOU. That is the key world. For over one billion Muslims he did.[/quote]
I would hazard to guess that a large proportion of those Muslims were born such, and therefore never truly needed more than parental upbringing to become such.
[quote]Posted “The deviation in your thought processes comes about with interpretation of those books.”
YOU think this is a deviation. This is what YOU think. [/quote]
You missed the entire point of my post 😛 I was using ‘your’ in the sense of Malik and Al-Zawahiri, not you in the sense of ‘just Malik’.
Perhaps I should have used the term ‘bifurcation’. You and I agree more than you’d want to let on – You want to return to the basics and reinterpret them for the modern world. -They- want to return to the basics and keep the interpretation from the 7th century.
The similarity is ‘return to the basics’. The bifurcation (or deviation between your beliefs and their beliefs) is how they should be interpreted. I was not implying that your beliefs are a deviation (bid’ah). Goodness – I feel like I’m having to interpret myself.
[quote]What, exactly, are you doing, besides debating ‘Muslims’ on-line? Hint Ethan, there is a real world out there, join it. [/quote]
I am utterly unable to help reform Islam, Malik – It’s a no-infidels club.
I’m not asking you to do more you obviously can’t given your situation; I’m only asking for you to consider your thoughts more. The arguments that you have been using to defend your itjihad ideology are not based on theological legalism – they are emotive.
Only in the court of ignorant public opinion an emotive argument will work.
[quote]Your problem Ethan, at its roots, is the inability to understand or relate to other people or believe that other people can and do have opinions that are different than yours and are just as valid as yours.[/quote]
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. They are not entitled to their own facts. When you pointed out the great advances in Islamic medicine, I conceded, did I not? I changed my opinion in light of facts. I have not seen you do the same.
Re(2): Curing the symptoms
Posted “Though I realize that time is at a premium for you (it is for myself as well!) it may be instructive to do some research on your own so that the box labeled ‘what Malik knows’ can overflow with information. Your ability to speak Arabic is certainly an advantage that I do not have.”
I do the best with the time I have. I have a deep amount of knowledge on many different subjects. I would venture to say that I know more than the typical person on the subject at hand, and more than the typical convert. I guess I could suggest the same thing for you, take some classes and you will start to learn Arabic. I would suggest to you that you read more information from people with a different viewpoint than yours. Your arguement has clearly been developed by reading a limited amount of information. You might be worried about reading information regarded as partisan, but I suggest that the information you are already reading is partisan, just in your favour. Read some material by authors not tarnished by any association. The first suggestion that comes to mind is the former Catholic nun Karen Amrstrong who has written some great scholarly works on Islam and Mohammed(SAW). She is not tainted by any relations with either camp. I think you will find her object view of Islam and Mohammed(SAW) differs greatly from your own.
Posted “The current community that I live in is particularly poor in the number of Muslims availible.”
It only takes one Muslim to get to know to start to have an idea that much of what you say and talk about here has no basis in the life of the average Muslim, expecially a Western muslim. Besides, from personal experience I can tell you that you might think there are a lot of Muslim where you live, but I can almost bet you that there are. You just havent looked, or gone the places where you would find them. It is going to be hard to find Muslims if you sit at home or work, and spend time at bars and other places like that.
Posted “We do have a large Ba’hai group on campus here (not Islam, but an offshoot of in the very least.)”
About as close to Muslims as modern Christians are to Orthodox Jews.
Posted “This was not always so. At my college and graduate school, I did work with Muslims and talked to more than a few – from a Palestinian who disliked the Arab world for playing the Palestinians as fools, to a rich Kuwaiti whose family lost just about everything they owned in the invasion, to a Moroccan who left school to go home after Sept 11, because he couldn’t stand to be in a country that ‘oppressed him’ – a single racial profiling incident.”
Again, very very limited experience with Muslims. This is why you initially had to point at contact with Muslims, or people who you assumed were Muslims, online.
Posted “Most sects outside the Catholic/Apostolic tradition do not have a church hierarchy. It can be safely said that a large number of Christians in the US, and even across the world also believe as you do, yet feel no need to convert. Jesus did say ‘when two or three are gathered in my name, I am with them’ – and only taught the single prayer – the ‘our father’. Jesus prescribed no rituals by with God must be worshipped. Those are human inventions.”
YOUR understanding of what Jesus(RA) did or didnt do is based solely on the Christian version. We Muslims have a different idea about who Jesus was and what he commanded us to do. I felt the need to convert for many reasons. The trinity, the pagan notion of God having offprings, original sin, clerical issues. There are many reasons. Again, you fail to recognise that I dont share your view about what you think Jesus did or didnt do. Open your mind.
Posted “Contrast with Islam, in which what you have to do to follow God and your interaction with God is prescribed fairly rigidly – pray 5 times a day, give zakat, vacation in sunny Mecca, etc. The five pillars. ”
Just like Jews. Islam never has claimed to be a new religion. I think if you looked at the earliest Christians you will find they were much like modern Muslims. I remember reading an article just after 9/11, in Newsweek I think, where the scholar, a Westerner, said that Jesus(RA) if he came back today, would feel much more at home in a mosque than a church. Modern Christians have gone so far away from what Jesus(RA) intended, I believe, so as to be unrecogniseable.
Posted “I do not understand how that rigidity is preferable to a completely open system given your thoughts (I do not believe anyone can tell me what I need to do to follow God, or what my interaction with God needs to be.) on the subject.”
How do you not understand you can be required to do certain things by God, and still have an open system for your thoughts? I do not think they contradict each other! I think Islam and Judaism have stuck pretty close to their roots, with some exceptions in some sects, Christianity has not. Muslims and Jews are not forbidden from other acts of worship just because some are Fardh(required). There is a lot of leeway here that is practiced all of the time. Again, I think one of your major issues is that you cannot accept the idea of having to obey anything or anyone, so you are going to have an issue with any religion. Because you feel this way you are going to have issues with those religions where they feel more is commanded of you, hence Islam and Orthodox Judaism.
Posted “I would hazard to guess that a large proportion of those Muslims were born such, and therefore never truly needed more than parental upbringing to become such. ”
That ignores the point Ethan. YOU say Mohammed never provided any proof of being connected to God. Yet for over a billion Muslims, that is not the case. Islam is a quickly growing religion, and not just in places where it is the native religion. You need to accept that other people have beliefs beside your own and they are valid. You talked about some Zoastrian reawakening because a couple hundrd Iranians decided to convert to this religion. Ethan, in the Metro DC area alone, twice that number converted to Islam during the single week of Eid al Adha last year alone. If you were to come to the local place, the DC convention center, for the Eid prayers you would see the changing face of Islam. Islam is white, black, Asian, Hispanic, American Indian. It is growing everyway. 9/11 was a tragedy, but it caused many people to take a look at Islam and understand it. The rates of people converting to Islam after 9/11 have double or tripled.
Posted “You missed the entire point of my post I was using ‘your’ in the sense of Malik and Al-Zawahiri, not you in the sense of ‘just Malik’.”
Yes, you are trying to say that because I do not accept your opinions that I am in the same league as bin Laden, al-Zawahiri and the Taliban, you said it yourself. You leave ZERO room for the idea that others have opinions that are just as valid as yours. Your version of Islam is the only valid version and anyone trying to deviate from your version is bound to fail. You have stated as much many times.
Posted “I am utterly unable to help reform Islam, Malik – It’s a no-infidels club. ”
Not the case Ethan. There are many channels for people who want to get involved in Islam and its reformation. One of the mosques I go to has a huge amount of work in the inter-faith field. My larger question was to you, what are you doing to make a difference in the world? It seems all you do is sit on the internet, tell other people their opinions are invalid. That is getting nothing done at all. Personal interaction is the key Ethan. Internet doesnt qualify. You are not a Muslim, but do you not see that as an American, your country is doing somethings in the area that are morally wrong? That is certainly something you can do something about. You rage and rant about extremist Islam. Well, your country and its leaders are very close to the biggest exporter of this, Saudi Arabia. What are you doing about it? It would seem to me that aside from the internet you are doing nothing.
Posted “I’m not asking you to do more you obviously can’t given your situation; I’m only asking for you to consider your thoughts more. The arguments that you have been using to defend your itjihad ideology are not based on theological legalism – they are emotive.”
I am not a scholar Ethan, therefor how can I come up with a “theological” arguement for anything? I do my best. I suppose I could do what you do and simply go to web pages, cut and paste, then act like I have a deep knowledge of the subject. I would rather be honest and admit I am not qualified to issue a legal opinion on anything.
Posted “Everyone is entitled to their opinion. They are not entitled to their own facts. When you pointed out the great advances in Islamic medicine, I conceded, did I not? I changed my opinion in light of facts. I have not seen you do the same.”
Whose facts Ethan? We do not even have an agreement as to what the facts are. Do you expect me to agree when you insult the Prophet? Is that your “facts”? Do you expect me to agree when you slander The Qur’an and Hadith? These are your “facts”? Do you expect me to agree when I think you take things completely out of context then come up with a conclusion that you use to slam Islam and Muslims? It is not going to happen. All of your arguements are rehashed nonsense picked up from anti-Islamic writers, websites, tracts, and books. You have not said one thing I have not hear before. When you provide something new, let me know. All I have seen from you is stuff that you have cut and paste from websites. At least I am being honest here and stating my own opinions, not cutting and pasting from outside sources. Lets here what YOU have to say without the help of your web sources. That is the one thing I hate about the web. With a good browser anyone can set themselves up to be an expert on any given subject. Ethan, if you were not even aware of the most basic of Islamic contributions to the sciences and arts then it is clear that you do not have the knowledge that you have built yourself up to have. I, on the other hand, am very clear about my lack of knowledge on these subjects.
Re(3): Curing the symptoms
The above was from Malik. Sorry, forgot to re-sign in.
Re(3): Curing the symptoms
[quote]I think part of Ethan problem is that, like many Westerners, he tends to see a large monolithic Islam. Islam is not monolithic, there are many parts of Islam[/quote]
Don’t speak of ‘westerners’ in the third person, Malik. You aren’t not one of us.
And truly I do not see a monolithic Islam. There are few truly monolithic religions on this planet. Every one of them has been split and sect’ed by people who have different interpretations. Islam is no different. However, Islam has been sliding toward monolithism since the number of schools was pared down to I believe 5 in the 10th century. The ‘end of itjihad’ as I have heard it referred to.
You want to revive that itjihad, I applaud that. But be aware that there are many parts of Islam that consider you a [i]de facto[/i] apostate for ignoring their fatwas. (I am referring especially to MEMRI’s report on Zarkawi’s Al-Quada in Iraq website) What would you say to them, knowing that they believe also that apostates must be put to death?
Re(4): Curing the symptoms
Posted “Don’t speak of ‘westerners’ in the third person, Malik. You aren’t not one of us. ”
I never said I wasnt. That is your insecurity coming through, nothing to do with me. Why would I say “we” when making a statement like that? I do not see Islam as monolithic. Why would I include myself in that statement? The FACT is most Westerners do see Islam in that way. Most Americans see it in that way as well. How do either of those statements negate my being a Westerner or an American? Like I have said before, I have met Americans like yourself who just cannot understand how I converted to Islam. They see it is a direct threat to themselves, as well as a rejection of American and Western ideals. Far from it, get used to it, one can be 100% Muslim and 100% Western and American. There is NO contradiction in the two. You know, when you get worked up your grammar goes down hill. It is interesting to see a professor use a double negative. “Aren’t not”?
Posted “And truly I do not see a monolithic Islam.”
Your statements say the exact opposite. You have told me that my ideas about Islam are wrong! It would seem you think there is just ONE way to look at Islam. You have fought me at every step when I have tried to explain that the people you point to do not represent the vast majority of Islam. You have said that theirs is the only rational, and therefore, valid viewpoint of Islam. You have marginalised Islam, you have depreciated it. All of this is because you just dont have a real good clue about Islam, its theology, or an understanding of Muslims in a real life enviroment.
Posted ” Every one of them has been split and sect’ed by people who have different interpretations. Islam is no different.”
Yet, you as a non Muslim, with no real history of any interaction with Muslims, feel free to say that my idea of Islam is wrong? You have no personal relationships with Muslims and do not interact with Muslims on a daily basis, yet you feel free to pronounce that Islam cannot reform? You feel free to say that the only solution to the issues within Islam is for Muslims to leave the religion?
Posted “However, Islam has been sliding toward monolithism since the number of schools was pared down to I believe 5 in the 10th century. The ‘end of itjihad’ as I have heard it referred to. ”
Again, your ignorance about how real world Muslims interact and think is really astounding. Ask many Muslims which school (madhab) they follow and they will not have a clue. I would suggest even that the numbers of people actually following a school have fallen, and will continue to fall. Often what decided what school you followed was based on where you lived. You had no other input. That is quickly changing. The world is opening up and Islam is opening up with it. I have met very few Muslims, in America and abroad, who will say with certainty that they follow just one school. Of course, I speak mostly about Sunnis, as my knowledge of how things work for the Shi’a is a bit limited. We do have Zaidi friends, but it is my understading they are a bit different from even other Shi’a, such as the 12ers. What we are seeing now, in the past 20 years or so is the rebirth of Ijtihad. And its advocates are coming from all over the religious spectrum, Salafee, Hanafee, Hanbali, you name it.
As for myself, I would say that I take most of my advice from Hanafee jurists, but allow myself to pick and choose based on my readings of The Qur’an and Hadith and based upon my personal feelings. I think this is how a large chunk of Muslims are. There is no requirement to follow one given school.
Posted “You want to revive that itjihad, I applaud that.”
Me? LOL! There is a huge movement going on towards this end. It is a huge debate going on within Islamic circles. You are not aware of this?
Posted “But be aware that there are many parts of Islam that consider you a de facto apostate for ignoring their fatwas. (I am referring especially to MEMRI’s report on Zarkawi’s Al-Quada in Iraq website)”
Doesnt worry me too much. These people are in the absolute vast minority. Not even most Salafee would support this nonsense of takfir for everyone who disagrees. Moderates, like myself, are the vast majority of Islam and our voice is growing louder and stronger. Again, the fact that you get 99% of all of your information about Islam and Muslims from the internet means that you will always be woefully underinformed and misinformed.
Posted “What would you say to them, knowing that they believe also that apostates must be put to death?”
If I am killled for my religion, then they have done me a favour. Either way, I am not afraid. If something isnt worth dying for, it isnt worth living for or fighting for. The “progressive cause” of Islam is certainly both worth living for and dying for. I will not allow these people to hijack my religion.
Re(1): Curing the symptoms
Malik, from a born Muslim to a “new” Muslim, please accept this advice: Sectarianism is killing Islam even faster than terrorists’ efforts, please do not fall into the trap of describing yourself as Shi’a or Sunni or Malki or Shaf’ii or whatever other sect there is. Just describe yourself as a Muslim. End of story. You are an advocate of letting a person’s mind do the judging and getting you on the correct path, so do as you preach.
Follow edicts that makes sense, don’t just throw them out because of who presented them. Throwing all of Khomaini’s edicts out just because he was Shi’a just shows that you are shallow and sectarian. And this is in no way defending Khomaini, it is the general principal that I am talking about here.
Do yourself a huge favour Malik, you DON’T have our emotional and cultural baggage, why do you want to encumber youself with OUR baggage by putting it on your own shoulders?
Qardawi by the way is a Sunni cleric.
Re(3): Curing the symptoms
[quote]The first suggestion that comes to mind is the former Catholic nun Karen Amrstrong who has written some great scholarly works on Islam and Mohammed(SAW). She is not tainted by any relations with either camp. I think you will find her object view of Islam and Mohammed(SAW) differs greatly from your own. [/quote]
I have read snippets of her work, but I have not spent enough time studying it. I am well aware that her opinions differ from mine – however, I believe that we both come from objective vewpoints.
[quote]YOUR understanding of what Jesus(RA) did or didnt do is based solely on the Christian version. We Muslims have a different idea about who Jesus was and what he commanded us to do. I felt the need to convert for many reasons. The trinity, the pagan notion of God having offprings, original sin, clerical issues. There are many reasons. Again, you fail to recognise that I dont share your view about what you think Jesus did or didnt do. Open your mind. [/quote]
I’m a bit confused, Malik. The Christian version of Christ is based on writings that can be traced back to within half a century of his life. Biblical Archaeology is a very intriguing field. One thing it has not found is that the Gospels have been somehow changed or tampered with since their earliest incarnation.
Islam’s Jesus is not the same person. And one reason why I can never convert to Islam is simply the pagan idea that God saved Jesus from his death and replaced him with a look-alike. Not only does that sound like mythology 101, it defeats the entire purpose of a Prophet. (i.e. why didn’t God save Mohammed, if Mohammed was a ‘more important as evidenced in the ‘s’ in SAW prophet?)
[quote]The rates of people converting to Islam after 9/11 have double or tripled. [/quote]
It’s easy to convert to Islam, Malik.
But I would suspect that many converts are due to the fact that Islam never seemed to be an option before for the wayward souls who were disgusted by Christianity but were seeking a religion. Since 9/11 every Tom, Dick and Abdullah has been on a Da’wa PR campaign. Islam is the ‘religion du jour’ – just as the Moonies, New Ageism and Buddhism were in decades past. The main difference is that the mosque keeps a member roll.
[quote]There are many channels for people who want to get involved in Islam and its reformation. One of the mosques I go to has a huge amount of work in the inter-faith field.[/quote]
Interfaith work does not lead to reformation. I don’t know where you got that idea, Malik.
[quote]You are not a Muslim, but do you not see that as an American, your country is doing somethings in the area that are morally wrong?[/quote]
Every country does things that are ‘morally’ wrong. Some more than others. Having a state religion is morally wrong. Blasphemy laws are morally wrong. Spending federal time and effort so save the life of someone who is in a vegetative state is morally wrong.
[quote]Well, your country and its leaders are very close to the biggest exporter of this, Saudi Arabia. What are you doing about it?[/quote]
Again, you’re not speaking as if you consider America your country as well.
I have written to my congresspeople in support of Iranian liberation, and against ties with any nation that is on the religious freedom blacklist. I financially support such causes when I am able to. Didn’t someone say at some point that ‘if you can’t fight with swords, fight with words’?
[quote] I am not a scholar Ethan, therefor how can I come up with a “theological” arguement for anything? I do my best. I suppose I could do what you do and simply go to web pages, cut and paste, then act like I have a deep knowledge of the subject. I would rather be honest and admit I am not qualified to issue a legal opinion on anything. [/quote]
You just described every turban-wearing mullah from DC to Jakarta and back again. You don’t need deep knowledge of anything to be a religious leader – you only have to know what to quote to support your opinions, and if you’re lucky, a bunch of people who will follow your teachings.
Cut and paste away, Malik. Learn which verses have been said be be abrogated, and learn which authors said what. Theology is no science, it’s an art form akin to philosophy. Whoever is qualified to be a philosopher or a theologian is whoever claims to be so. You don’t need a shiny diploma from Al-Azhar university to write an opinion. (Isn’t that all a fatwa is? An opinion?)
Before you decry my lack of ‘experience’ – I challenge you to do better.
[quote]Do you expect me to agree when you slander The Qur’an and Hadith?[/quote]
Not just plagiarsm, but also slander. Wonderful.
I rehash arguments – agreed. All of the good deconstruction of Islam has been taken – what is left is the archeology. Seems like the Saudis have done a remarkable job destroying that, haven’t they? A lot of arguments may seem like rehashment, but are actually built up on my own ideas. There are only so many ways to interpret ‘if two men are not availible to testify, bring a man and two women
Re(5): Curing the symptoms
[quote]I never said I wasnt. That is your insecurity coming through, nothing to do with me. … You know, when you get worked up your grammar goes down hill. It is interesting to see a professor use a double negative. “Aren’t not”? [/quote]
Tone, Malik, tone. The statement was patronizing.
As for double negatives – I am no grammarian, and I find the inclusion of a double negative to emphasize the point. It was, for lack of a better term, calculated.
[quote]You have fought me at every step when I have tried to explain that the people you point to do not represent the vast majority of Islam. You have said that theirs is the only rational, and therefore, valid viewpoint of Islam. You have marginalised Islam, you have depreciated it. All of this is because you just dont have a real good clue about Islam, its theology, or an understanding of Muslims in a real life enviroment. [/quote]
I have fought you because you refuse to back up your statements with anything other than repetition.
I’m trying to say that these ‘extremists’ arguments can flow logically from the base material.
You claim that they are not representative without showing the flaws in my logic.
From your argument, I can conclude that:
“Muslims are great and wonderful people whose religion has been hijacked by extremists.”
If I add that stance to my line of argument, I get:
“Muslims are great and wonderful people whose religion has been hijacked by extremists whose beliefs follow logically from the words in the Koran and the actions of the Prophet.”
If you are allowed to pick and choose teachings based on your personal opinions and still remain as a Muslim according to your beliefs, why are the ‘extremists’ not allowed to pick and choose their interpretations based on their feelings? What makes militant Wahabbi/Salafi teaching ‘unislamic’?
[quote]Moderates, like myself, are the vast majority of Islam and our voice is growing louder and stronger. [/quote]
A very nice group: http://www.freemuslims.org/news/article.php?article=527
I’m pleased that your voices are growing louder and stronger. I’m pleased that you are willing to fight for a moderate Islam.
I dream of the day when my Son can walk down the street and not be assailed by some crazy screaming about God, or fearing for his life from some crazy screaming about God, or having a government that takes anyone who speaks about God seriously. That’s what I fight for.
Re(4): Curing the symptoms
Posted “I have read snippets of her work, but I have not spent enough time studying it. I am well aware that her opinions differ from mine – however, I believe that we both come from objective vewpoints.”
I find your viewpoint to be anything but objective. You consistantly generalise about Islam as well as making very biased opinions based on no real world experince, and it would seem, very little variety in your reading.
Posted “I’m a bit confused, Malik. The Christian version of Christ is based on writings that can be traced back to within half a century of his life. Biblical Archaeology is a very intriguing field. One thing it has not found is that the Gospels have been somehow changed or tampered with since their earliest incarnation. ”
Which writings Ethan? The early church had dozens and dozens of such books. Which were authentic? Which were fakes? How did they get to the present amount of books from the 70+ that they originally had? You are not right when you say that the gospels have not changed. A quick look at the earliest surviving copies of some of these books will find that, when compared to modern editions, verses have been left out, verses have been added ect. Of course, this only really matters if you can agree those were books that were authentic in the first place. Catholics have more books than Protestants, which is right? What about other books, as old as the ones in use, that have been found afterward that give differing accounts that the current gospels? Which of the below are you talking about?
Below are the lists of the books drawn that were drawn by various Church authorities showing, in their opinion, what constituted the extent of New Testament. The list is till the end of 4th century.
The Muratorian Canon
The Canon Of Origen (A.D. c. 185 – 254)
The Canon Of Eusebius Of Caesarea (A.D. 265 – 340)
A Canon Of Uncertain Date And Provenance Inserted in Codex Claromontanus
The Canon Of Cyril Of Jerusalem (c. A.D. 350)
The Cheltenham Canon (c. A.D. 360)
The Canon Approved By The Synod Of Laodicea (c. A.D. 363)
The Canon Of Athanasius (A.D. 367)
The Canon Approved By The ‘Apostolic Canons’ (c. A.D. 380)
The Canon Of Gregory Of Nazianzus (A.D. 329 – 89)
The Canon Of Amphilochius Of Iconium (d. 394)
The Canon Approved By The Third Synod Of Carthage (A.D. 397)
Ethan, can you answer me which one of these canons is the correct one? They all seem to be pretty much different.
Anglican Church: The canon of the Anglican falls between the Catholic Church and many Protestant denominations by accepting only the Jewish canon and the New Testament as authoritative, but also by accepting segments of the apocryphal writings in the lectionary and liturgy. At one time all copies of the King James Version of 1611 included the Apocrypha between the Old and New Testaments., H. W. Howorth, Journal Of Theological Studies, 1906, Volume 29, pp. 1-40.
The Origin And Authority Of The Biblical Canon In The Anglican Church
As the name of the article suggests, it deals with the origins of the Canon of the Anglican Church. The author shows that the Anglican Canon originated as a result of a strange and confused mixture between the past and the present and obviously it was something that never existed before!
Armenian Church: The noteworthy features of the Armenian version of the Bible was the inclusion of certain books that elsewhere was regarded as apocryphal. The Old Testament included the History of Joseph and Asenath and the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, and the New Testament included the Epistle of Corinthians to Paul and a Third Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians.
Coptic Church: Athanasius issued his Thirty-Ninth Festal Epistle not only in the Greek but also in Coptic, in a slightly different form – though the list of the twenty seven books of the New Testament is the same in both languages. How far, however the list remained authoritative for the Copts is problematical. The Coptic (Bohairic) translation of the collection knowns as the Eighty-Five Apostlic Canons concludes with a different sequence of the books of the New Testament and is enlarged by the addition of two others: the four Gospels; the Acts of the Apostles; the fourteen Epistles of Paul (not mentioned individually); two Epistles of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude; the Apocalypse of John; the two Epistles of Clement.
Ethiopic (Abyssinian) Church: This Church has the largest Bible of all, and and distinguishes different canons, the “narrower” and the “broader” according to the extent of the New Testament. The Ethiopic Old Testament comprises the books of the Hebrew Bible as well as all of the deuterocanonical books listed above, along with Jubilees, I Enoch, and Joseph ben Gorion’s (Josippon’s) medieval history of the Jews and other nations. The New Testament in what is referred to as the “broader” canon is made up of thirty-five books, joining to the usual twenty-seven books eight additional texts, namely four sections of church order from a compilation called Sinodos, two sections from the Ethiopic Book of the Covenant, Ethiopic Clement, and Ethiopic Didascalia. When the “narrower” New Testament canon is followed, it is made up of only the familiar twenty-seven books, but then the Old Testament books are divided differently so that they make up 54 books instead of 46. In both the narrower and broader canon, the total number of books comes to 81., R. W. Cowley, Ostkirchliche Studien, 1974, Volume 23, pp. 318-323.
The Biblical Canon Of The Ethiopic Orthodox Church Today
The article discusses the Biblical Canon of the Ethiopic Orthodox Church as seen today. This canon consists of a “broader” and a “narrower” canon.
Greek Orthodox Church: The Bible of the Greek Orthodox church comprises all of the books accepted by the Roman Catholic church, plus I Esdras, the Prayer of Manasseh, Psalm 151, and 3 Maccabees. The Slavonic canon adds 2 Esdras, but designates I and 2 Esdras as 2 and 3 Esdras. Other Eastern churches have 4 Maccabees as well.
Protestant Church: Historically, Protestant churches have recognized the Hebrew canon as their Old Testament, although differently ordered, and with some books divided so that the total number of books is thirty-nine. These books, as arranged in the traditional English Bible, fall into three types of literature: seventeen historical books (Genesis to Esther), five poetical books (Job to Song of Solomon), and seventeen prophetical books. With the addition of another twenty-seven books (the four Gospels, Acts, twenty-one letters, and the book of Revelation), called the New Testament, the Christian scriptures are complete.
Roman Catholic Church: The Protestant canon took shape by rejecting a number of books and parts of books that had for centuries been part of the Old Testament in the Greek Septuagint and in the Latin Vulgate, and had gained wide acceptance within the Roman Catholic church. In response to the Protestant Reformation, at the Council of Trent (1546) the Catholic church accepted, as deuterocanonical, Tobit, Judith, the Greek additions to Esther, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Baruch, the Letter of Jeremiah, three Greek additions to Daniel (the Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Jews, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon), and I and 2 Maccabees. These books, together with those in the Jewish canon and the New Testament, constitute the total of seventy three books accepted by the Roman Catholic church., A. C. Cotter, Theological Studies, 1945, Volume 6, pp. 206-228.
Lost Books Of The Bible?
An interesting discussion about the “lost books” of the Bible and its implications on the Catholic and Protestant canons.
Syriac Church: Syriac Churches used the Diatesseron, the four-in-one Gospel, introduced by Tatian, and was read in the Syriac Churches for quite some time before it was replaced by Peshitta. Peshitta has again a different number of Books in the New Testament. This represents for the New Testament an accomodation of the canon of the Syrians with that of the Greeks. Third Corinthians was rejected, and, in addition to the fourteen Pauline Epistles (including Hebrews, following Philemon), three longer Catholic Epistles (James, 1 Peter, and 1 John) were included. The four shorter Catholic Epistles (2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Jude) and the Apocalypse are absent from the Peshitta Syriac version, and thus the Syriac canon of the New Testament contained but twenty-two writings. For a large part of the Syrian Church this constituted the closing of the canon, for after the Council of Ephesus (431 CE) the East Syrians separated themselves as Nestorians from the Great Church.
I find it interesting that you, when critiquing Islam, seem so down on revealed religion, yet do not apply any such emphasis when dealing with Christianity or with Judaism. This is a good giveaway at your deeply held issues with Islam. The fact that you cannot apply the same arguements with Christianity or Judaism speaks wonders about your own personal bias. If you were so dead set against revealed religions you would not speak as highly of Christianity as you do.
Posted “Islam’s Jesus is not the same person.”
It is the same person. Again you allow YOUR opinion to override your critical thinking.
Posted “And one reason why I can never convert to Islam is simply the pagan idea that God saved Jesus from his death and replaced him with a look-alike.”
As opposed to the simply pagan like idea of God having a son? Or the simply pagan idea of the trinity? Or the simply pagan idea of replacing spring solstice for Easter and Winter Solstice for Christmas? Ironic a person defending modern Christianity can call another faith’s doctrine pagan.
Posted “Not only does that sound like mythology 101, it defeats the entire purpose of a Prophet. (i.e. why didn’t God save Mohammed, if Mohammed was a ‘more important as evidenced in the ‘s’ in SAW prophet?)”
Mohammed(SAW) was not more important, and I dont think you can prove so by talking about SAW. All the prophets were equally important, Mohammed(SAW)
just happened to be the last one. As a matter of fact, does Mohammed have a whole chapter in The Qur’an name after him? Jesus does. Do you know the origins and the basis of the Hajj? Who is that mostly based on? Hint, it isnt Mohammed(SAW)
Posted “It’s easy to convert to Islam, Malik. ”
LOL! As best said by someone who knows NO converts to Islam Ethan. Again, you show how your lack of personal interaction in the Muslim community really hinders your knowledge of the subject. It is very hard to convert to Islam and to remain a practicing Muslim. Aside from the fact that you might loose your family, your wife, your kids and often your job, it is not an easy religion to learn. It is much harder to convert to Islam than Christianity. In Christianity you say “I believe” and you are going to heaven. It isnt so easy in Islam. The road for a convert to Islam is long and very hard, often very lonely. In the long run it is very rewarding on many fronts.
Posted “But I would suspect that many converts are due to the fact that Islam never seemed to be an option before for the wayward souls who were disgusted by Christianity but were seeking a religion.”
Again Ethan, honestly, with all due respect you are making some very stupid statements here based completely on nothing more than what is in your head. You lack any experience with Muslim converts, I know you havent read anything about them or you wouldnt be making what appears to be some very insane statements. I have known dozens of Muslim converts. I used to work, for several years, as a coordinator for a new muslim support group. The vast majority, and by this I think about 90%, of people that come to Islam do so based on a long history of research on the subject. It is not something they just thought of one day and decided to do. In America you can convert to Judaism or Christianity and not have to really make any life shattering changes. It is not the same with Islam. Converting to Islam is a complete change of life and often involves in giving up much of what you have held dear in life, family, all sorts of things. To say that converting to Islam is easy is just to show a complete lack of knowledge.
Posted ” Since 9/11 every Tom, Dick and Abdullah has been on a Da’wa PR campaign. Islam is the ‘religion du jour’ – just as the Moonies, New Ageism and Buddhism were in decades past. The main difference is that the mosque keeps a member roll.”
Again, complete lack of knowledge Ethan. I am almost feeling sorry for you here. The vast majority of people who go to any given mosque are not members of it. I would suspect, and it is my personal experience, that most mosques are rather unorganised. You can go to any Church in the USA and find a membership role in a much better state than any Mosque. As an order and organisational freak, this is one of the things that have bugged me about mosques. They really have no idea who goes to the mosque or in what numbers. You can “join” but most people do not so, prefering to just leave their donations in the boxes when they come.
As to Da’wa, that is a HUGE joke. Da’wa, in the Islamic community, especially in the USA, is a complete joke. A local convert, who became an Imam and is now the Imam at Howard University gave a Khutba once at Dar al Hijrah. He pointed to the several hundred men and women in attendence and completely slammed them. He said “I did not come to Islam because of you, I can to Islam DESPITE of you. There is not one of you in here that had any role in bringing me to Islam.” I had to go shake his hand afterwards because it was the same in my case and countless other converts. A majority of of people who come to Islam do not do so based on any contact they had with any Da’wa group. I have been to mosques all over the US on business and pleasure trips, as well as Europe, and I can tell you this is the case everywhere. The least attended and the least active group in any mosque will always be the Da’wa group. When they are active it is nothing more than handing out some prefab lifeless pamphlets.
Posted “Interfaith work does not lead to reformation. I don’t know where you got that idea, Malik.”
It often goes hand in hand. If you spent anytime in the Muslim community you would know that. Unless, of course, you think the hardline Salafee/Wahabi mosques are in the habit of inviting Jews over for dinner?
Posted “Every country does things that are ‘morally’ wrong. Some more than others. Having a state religion is morally wrong. Blasphemy laws are morally wrong. Spending federal time and effort so save the life of someone who is in a vegetative state is morally wrong. ”
Nice way to dodge the question. I would say because the US has more power and more influence than any other country in the world what we do affects the world much more than others. Our country, on the whole, has done some pretty evil things, and is still about this business. As an American I feel it is my duty to object to these things, just like as a Muslim, I feel it is my duty to object to things when fundamentalists do them in my name.
Posted “Again, you’re not speaking as if you consider America your country as well.”
I am an American, I was addressing you!
Posted “I have written to my congresspeople in support of Iranian liberation, and against ties with any nation that is on the religious freedom blacklist. I financially support such causes when I am able to. Didn’t someone say at some point that ‘if you can’t fight with swords, fight with words’?”
So that is what you do eh? You feel Iran is much more dangerous than Saudi Arabia? You feel that the US has more sway and ties with Iran than it does with Saudi Arabia? Use your time wisely. There is nothing a letter of yours is going to do to affect change in Iran, but I bet a well coordinated effort against US ties, economic and political, with Saudi Arabia might! I wonder what you mean by liberation of Iran anyways? I support the right of the Iranian people to remove the clerics if they wish, I also support the right for the Iranian people to remain Muslim, and think they will be 100% liberated if they do. You seem to really like Iranian things, ever take the time out to meet any or learn their language? Or is this a passing fancy for you?
Posted “You just described every turban-wearing mullah from DC to Jakarta and back again. You don’t need deep knowledge of anything to be a religious leader – you only have to know what to quote to support your opinions, and if you’re lucky, a bunch of people who will follow your teachings. ”
Wow, then maybe you should be a cleric Ethan. You seem to be extremist enough for it, you cannot stand any dissent with your views. A white turban for you then it is, you dont qualify for the black one, you are not related to the Prophet(SAW).
Posted “Cut and paste away, Malik. Learn which verses have been said be be abrogated, and learn which authors said what.”
I’ll leave the intellectual dishonesty to yourself. I would rather rely on what I know and what I have experience. All of the books you can read, all of the websites you can visit can never match having a real knowledge of the Muslim community and the people in it.
Posted “Before you decry my lack of ‘experience’ – I challenge you to do better. ”
I humbily defer to your superior ability in cutting and pasting. As to doing better, I would think it is rather clear I have a much better understanding than yourself about how REAL Muslims think and act. Nothing you can read Ethan will ever give you an accurate insight in the real lives of real people.
Posted “Not just plagiarsm, but also slander. Wonderful. ”
Ethan, you do not deal with my religion in a respectful way. I have no problems with debate, I have had many such debates with people much more in tune with the Muslim community, even though they have issues with Islam. You, on the other hand, do not treat my religion with respect. You are condiscending, insulting and rude. You will never get anyone to listen to you when you act this way.
Posted “I rehash arguments – agreed. All of the good deconstruction of Islam has been taken – what is left is the archeology.”
Yes, and none of it has worked. Agreed.
Posted “Seems like the Saudis have done a remarkable job destroying that, haven’t they? A lot of arguments may seem like rehashment, but are actually built up on my own ideas. There are only so many ways to interpret ‘if two men are not availible to testify, bring a man and two women
Re(6): Curing the symptoms
Posted “Tone, Malik, tone. The statement was patronizing. ”
Tone? This from the person that has called Mohammed a child molester? You want to lecture someone else?
Posted “I have fought you because you refuse to back up your statements with anything other than repetition.”
I have provided answers the best I could. I will not do what you do and go cut and paste and then try to pass off the views and opinions as my own.
Posted “I’m trying to say that these ‘extremists’ arguments can flow logically from the base material. ”
I dont know what you are trying to say, what you do say is that extremism is the natural outcome of being a Muslim and believing in the Qur’an and Hadith. You refuse to accept that you can believe in both and be a valid, practice Muslim.
Posted “You claim that they are not representative without showing the flaws in my logic.”
Anyone who knows any Muslim or who has spent any time in Muslim countries knows your generalisations are false. Your words and statements just do not mesh with reality. It is because you basis your opinions and ideas on nothing more than you read on line or in books.
Posted “Muslims are great and wonderful people whose religion has been hijacked by extremists.”
I think that is the case. Do you argue that extremism is a belief held by a majority of Muslims?
Posted “”Muslims are great and wonderful people whose religion has been hijacked by extremists whose beliefs follow logically from the words in the Koran and the actions of the Prophet.”
As you see it. So again, what is your solution? You have, to date, offered no realistic solution. If you blathered about how Islam cannot be reformed and if given the chances most Muslims will leave Islam. Both of those are completely false and unrealistic. Do you argue that extremist Jews have beliefs that logically flow from the Old Testament based on their verses where God commands them to kill foreigners and their people who mix with foreigners? Do you hold them to the same standards when they have verses, when compared to The Qur’an, that are much more bloodthirsty? Is there anything in The Qur’an where Muslim are commanded to kill ever living being in a town, down the women, children and animals? If you dont hold Jews to the same standards as Muslim, I would like to know why.
Posted “If you are allowed to pick and choose teachings based on your personal opinions and still remain as a Muslim according to your beliefs, why are the ‘extremists’ not allowed to pick and choose their interpretations based on their feelings? What makes militant Wahabbi/Salafi teaching ‘unislamic’?”
They are allowed to pick what they choose. It is when they seek to force their views upon others that they go to far. As a Muslim I am naturally tolerant. I have no issues with people practicing their religion as they like. When you try to force your views on me, whethere Muslim or Christian, then you have gone too far.
Posted “A very nice group: <http://www.freemuslims.org/news/article.php?article=527> ”
Yes, but you would dispute with them. They say “Distorting the word “infidels” to include all Christians, all Jews and many Muslims, when the Quran calls them all “People of the Book” (the Old Testament ), “Sons of Abraham,” and calls Jesus one of God’s primary messengers and the Messiah. Moreover, the Quran specifically says that Christians, Jews, Muslims and others who believe in God and who do good work for mankind are destined for heaven ”
Your contention is that the extremists have the right view of Islam. Hence, this group is not one you would support. They would not support your ideas either.
Posted “I dream of the day when my Son can walk down the street and not be assailed by some crazy screaming about God, or fearing for his life from some crazy screaming about God, or having a government that takes anyone who speaks about God seriously. That’s what I fight for. ”
Yes, then my son will be walking down the street and your son will come yelling at him because he DOES believe in God, that he is a Muslim. To be truely tolerant Ethan you must accept all viewpoints and realise they are all as equally as valid as yours. You have a long way to go before you get there.
Re(7): Curing the symptoms
By the way, I looked at that site. It was started by Kamal Nawash here in the DC area. I have meet him and do not care for him. He came to the Mosque pandering for votes when he was running for office. Then it turns out he is not even a practicing Muslim, he does not pray, nothing. That is neither here nor there. I wouldnt have cared if he had been honest, but he came to the mosque acting all pious and religious.
Be honest, if you do not pray, say so. If you drink, say so. Dont try to decieve people as to what you are all about. Had he admit these things up front I would have no issue with him. He tried to cover it up and sheepishly admited to it when caught out.
I will look at this site further when I come back on monday. He struck me as one of the people mentioned in the quote from the book earlier. Who has gone so far as to be only able to recognise the faults in his own religion, but not to be able to critique the country he lives it. Dual crtiquing I believe they called it.
Re(8): Curing the symptoms
[quote]If you are going to a foreign land to support the occupation forces, there are certain risks you take.[/quote]
Malik you can use all the words and reasons you want as an excuse for what happened. Doesnt make it right though. Im sure that the Bosnians can come up with the same use of reasons for the mass killings of helpless Muslims.
billT
Re(2): Curing the symptoms
Posted “Malik, from a born Muslim to a “new” Muslim, please accept this advice: Sectarianism is killing Islam even faster than terrorists’ efforts, please do not fall into the trap of describing yourself as Shi’a or Sunni or Malki or Shaf’ii or whatever other sect there is. Just describe yourself as a Muslim. End of story. You are an advocate of letting a person’s mind do the judging and getting you on the correct path, so do as you preach. ”
You are right Mahmood, and I agree. It seemed to me that Ethan was under the impression that Muslims must follow a given leader, they must choose a particular jurist. I was trying to point out that whereas this is the case with some sects in Islam, it is not the case with others, nor the case with Islam as a whole. I think part of Ethan problem is that, like many Westerners, he tends to see a large monolithic Islam. Islam is not monolithic, there are many parts of Islam.
I describe myself, when asked, as a Sunni. However, as a Muslim, I see many things can be gained from drawing from the knowledge and the beliefs of all areas of Islam. There are many things from some Shi’a beliefs, and especially Sufi sects, that I love. This is the great thing about Islam, is the diversity of opinion. One is not forced to completely believe anything and can draw from all sources.
Posted “Follow edicts that makes sense, don’t just throw them out because of who presented them. Throwing all of Khomaini’s edicts out just because he was Shi’a just shows that you are shallow and sectarian. And this is in no way defending Khomaini, it is the general principal that I am talking about here. ”
Indeed, nor did I say that I throw anything out based on anyone’s background. I did say that I rejected some of the stuff he said, because like Ethan, I find some of it irresponsible and outrageous. In our personal life we have many friends from different backgrounds. One of my wife’s best friends is a Zaidi from Yemen.
Posted “Do yourself a huge favour Malik, you DON’T have our emotional and cultural baggage, why do you want to encumber youself with OUR baggage by putting it on your own shoulders?”
Far from it. I think that is what gives converts a unique view on the religion is that they are free to make choices and have thoughts that are unencumbered by any cultural nonsense.
Posted “Qardawi by the way is a Sunni cleric.”
Of course he is. I never stated anything different. I simply pointed out that I was under no obligation to follow anything he says. I think many of these scholars concentrate on the minutia and completely ignore the real and pressing matters of our faith. I ignore a good chunk of what most of these types say, and I am better off for it.
Re(7): Curing the symptoms
[quote]Tone? This from the person that has called Mohammed a child molester? You want to lecture someone else?[/quote]
I have right to. According to Bukahri as narrated by Aisha, she was 6 when she was married off to Mohammed, and their relationship was consummated at nine.
I stated a fact. Any reasonable court in the US would convict someone who married a six year old and had sex with her at nine years old to be a child molestor.
I don’t believe any historical figure is beyond reproach.
[quote]I will not do what you do and go cut and paste and then try to pass off the views and opinions as my own. [/quote]
Woah. Since when is it an intolerable sin to share an opinion with someone?
[quote]Do you argue that extremist Jews have beliefs that logically flow from the Old Testament based on their verses where God commands them to kill foreigners and their people who mix with foreigners? [/quote]
Yes, I do. I have a lot of disdain for the tribal God of the Old Testament, and for the religions that spawn from it – thought not neccesarily all of the teachings thereof.
However, you would be very very hard pressed to find a worldwide network of armed Jews that use the violence in the Torah as an excuse to bomb buses, blow up commuter trains, hijack cruise liners, publically behead foregners (on TV!) and fly civilian planes into skyscrapers.
Jewish extremists are primarily focused on reclaiming a land that was stolen from them a thousand years ago, and removing what they consider blasphemy from their holiest site. What would Muslims do if Christians had built a Cathedral over the ruins of the Haram Mosque?
Muslim extremists are primarily focused on killing foregners and imposing their will over the world. I may find Jewish extremists to be religious nutcases who care more about a plot of land than a stable peace, (Hamas thinks the [i]exact same way[/i]) but they do not directly threaten my survival as a person.
[quote]Your contention is that the extremists have the right view of Islam. Hence, this group is not one you would support. They would not support your ideas either. [/quote]
Malik, you really have not actually understood my position – so you shouldn’t tell me what my position is. With minimal effort, I can show that the extremist position is correct. I can use their arguments, their theological backing and their historical support to prove that their case is strong.
On the other hand, I cannot use your arguments (or most moderate arguments) to prove that the case for moderation is strong. Many of the moderate arguments can be explained away by the extremists as based on abrogated verses, using the Koran’s own words and centuries of theologians’ rulings. Even without resorting to that, I find a lot more theological backing, using the Koran and the Hadith. in the arguments of the extremists than I do with the ‘It’s not Islamic’ arguments of the moderates.
Let’s take your argument here:
[b]They are allowed to pick what they choose. It is when they seek to force their views upon others that they go to far. As a Muslim I am naturally tolerant. I have no issues with people practicing their religion as they like. When you try to force your views on me, whethere Muslim or Christian, then you have gone too far.[/b]
1) They are allowed to pick what they choose.
2) As a Muslim, I am naturally tolerant.
I choose a verse from the Koran: (3:118) O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk (Muslims), who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you the revelations if ye will understand.
I choose another verse: (4:144) O ye who believe! Choose not disbelievers for (your) friends in place of believers. Would ye give Allah a clear warrant against you ?
I choose these verses to be absolutely true.
Therefore I am going to avoid and have no contact with of people who are not my ‘own folk
Re(1): Curing the symptoms
[quote]Malik: Time for Steve to have a drink, I have now been called Bin Laden and the Taliban.[/quote]
Well, this was inevitable, wasn’t it? By your own petard are you now hoisted. However, being the impartial sort, I will hoist my drink nevertheless. Mmmmm. Pure delicious Diet Coke. Yum.
Now I’m going back to sleep. If somebody calls anybody else a Bin Laden, somebody please wake me up.
Zzzzzzzzzz,
Steve
Re(7): Curing the symptoms
If that’s the best argument you have, it’s a weak one. Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees; he said this after chastizing them for bringing an adultress to him and asking for her to be stoned.
This is a common thread in the Gospel: strict adherence to the law is a detriment to faith.
Re(7): Curing the symptoms
Posted “If that’s the best argument you have, it’s a weak one. Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees; he said this after chastizing them for bringing an adultress to him and asking for her to be stoned. ”
Oh, you mean you have to put it into context to understand it right? What exactly does stoning an adultress have to do with the fact that Jesus(SA) said that all Jews had the Devil as their father, and that they seek to do his work? Interesting, however, that whereas you refuse contextual situations in The Qur’an, you make it for Christians in the New Testament. Jesus(SA) does not say SOME Jews are the spawn of the devil, he says ALL Jews, and that ALL Jews do the devils work. These words by Jesus(SA) have justified over 1,000 years of pogroms against Jews and the murder of millions of them. Jesus(SA) said these words speaking in the temple. It was said to the leaders of the Jews. Of course, we Muslims do not believe that Jesus(SA) would ever say such a thing and slander all of the prophets that went before him, who happened to be Jewish.
It is hardly weak. These words have been the motivating factor behind mass murder of Jews for hundreds of years. I heard a Jewish convert to Christianity talking about this on NPR the other morning. Interesting, he is a Biblical New Testament scholar. He said people should take this verse into CONTEXT. He said the person who wrote this some 60-70 years after Jesus(SA) was probably addressing the intercommunity strife at this time and that Jesus(AS) probably never said these words. Yes, the expert in the New Testament said one must take things into context. But, I guess context doesnt matter with The Qur’an.
Why do you lambast Muslims who want to take things into context, yet you use the context arguement yourself to defend Christianity? Either context is valid or it isnt. You cannot have it both ways. You are trying to do so and it smacks of hypocrisy.
Re(5): Curing the symptoms
[quote]
I find your viewpoint to be anything but objective. You consistantly generalise about Islam as well as making very biased opinions based on no real world experince, and it would seem, very little variety in your reading.
[/quote]
I don’t know whose posts you have been reading, but I would think that starting from first principles would not indicate bias.
Regarding the New Testament:
I speifically saud that the -Gospels- have not been shown to be altered. The New Testament is not the Gospel. The New Testament is best described in general as four biographies, some history and a bunch of exegesis. In no way is is the direct revelation of God, it is a history of the revelation of God.
[quote]
I find it interesting that you, when critiquing Islam, seem so down on revealed religion, yet do not apply any such emphasis when dealing with Christianity or with Judaism.
[/quote]
I’m not going to argue something that is not germaine to the debate. It’s like arguing the merits of Special Relativity when discussing Elecromagnetism. Related, yes – but not the topic at hand.
[quote]
I have no problem debating, but you make it so personal, you want to insult the Prophet, The Qur’an, you name it. I dont agree with much of Christianity, but you dont see me insulting Christians do you? Do you see me insultign Jesus? I wouldnt do so. I wish you could do the same.
[/quote]
Ok, Malik, let me clarify something. I’m not insulting anything. If you think that I am, then you have a terribly thin skin. If I was insulting, I would be like that ‘fake hawk’ guy, who had nothing but disrespect and epithet tossing to his name.
I, on the other hand, have no fear about looking at the underbelly of things. I’m a scientist, it’s what I do. I look for flaws and holes in an argument or theory and find data to support my own conclusions. To do so, I’m going to have to express things bluntly. I have no fear of calling a spade a spade – and if that is politically incorrect, then so be it. You’ll find that irreverence has far more value than doubletalk.
[quote]
You are from a school of thought that limits your ideas. You come from a school of thought that would limit God. God directed people to do certain things at certain times. He told Noah to gather the animals after he built the ark. Does that mean that all Jews need to gather animals and build an ark? Going by your statement above that should be an eternal commandment to all Jews right? What about when God commanded the Jews to slaughter all of the people in the promised land, is that an eternal command? Apply your logic, twisted as it may be, to Judaism and Christianity and watch it fall apart.
[/quote]
I’m sorry – this made me laugh out loud. Limit God? No such thing. If there is a God he is limitless. If he wants to replace Jesus on the Cross, then he can. If he wants to create an avatar of himself in order to suffer the idea of death, then he certainly can. But he could only have done one or the other. I shall cover the concept more in your next quoted block. Before this, however – refutations:
God told Noah that he was going to flood the Earth, and to build an Ark. Afterward, he promised never to do such again. Therefore by God’s own admission, it was a one time affair.
God did not command the Hewbrews to kill every person in the promised land, and his orders were toward certain cities, Ai, for example. Now, the funny thing is that the history of the conquest of Caanan is about as realistic as the Antebellum US South’s ‘history’. Jericho still stands as one of the worlds oldest continually inhabited cities, yet it was said that there would never be another who lived there. Ai, even was already abandoned before the Isrealites got there. The story is actually made up propaganda. Biblical Archaeology has debunked as much Biblical history as it supports!
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As opposed to the simply pagan like idea of God having a son? Or the simply pagan idea of the trinity? Or the simply pagan idea of replacing spring solstice for Easter and Winter Solstice for Christmas? Ironic a person defending modern Christianity can call another faith’s doctrine pagan.
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I’m hardly defending modern Christianity. There is no hard and fast rules as to when certain hoidays should be celebrated in the first place. The Copts celebrate Christmas in January! Moving the holidays to similar dates in the majority pagan calendar helped win converts across Europe. For the evangelists, this made their lives easier. They didn’t have armed bands of warriors hopped up on Jihad, you know.
[quote]
God gave specific answers to specific situations at times. I do not know why you find this so hard to understand. Multi-tasking? Ever heard of it. You dont think it is possible for God to say “In this situation, you are required to do this because it is what I command of you”?
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There is precious little instance of God saying “In this situation, you are required” in the Koran. The verses that state: “Be not friends with / take not as intimates” are not in any sort of context in the book. I don’t see why -you- don’t see that.
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You think The Bible, or The Qur’an has to be nothing more than 100% eternal laws fit for all situations?
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The Bible as a whole never claims to be this. Certain sections of it may proclaim eternity – such as Jesus’ two laws, but the vast majority is histories. The Koran, however, claims to be necessary, sufficient and complete for faith.
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These people are acutally literalists/facists who completely misunderstand the message. They cannot see the forest for the trees. Much like yourself.[/quote]
If something claims to be necessary, sufficient and complete – and you believe it to be true – why should there be anything else? That’s found in any Logic 101 text.
This doesn’t mean that I don’t think that holy texts inherently reflect the time, situation and place they were composed by their authors. You keep missisng the message – Of -course- you should reinterpret things. That’s evolution of society and thought! However, there is nothing in the Koran that dissuades the 7th century opinion/interpretation. If there is, I have not found it.
[quote]I guess when Jesus said “Render until Ceasar what is Ceasars and to God what is God’s” that all Christians should pay their tax to the leader of Italy? [/quote]
Even in the ignorant literal interpretation, that says that if someone named Ceasar owns something and you have it, you should give it to him 😛
In the obvious interpretation, Jesus is separating the temporal world from the afterlife. Do not give what is God’s to Ceasar, and do not give what is Ceasar’s to God; i.e. Do not worship Ceasar, and do not treat God as an Earthly lawgiver.
I guess when God said: “Be not friends with Christians and Jews, for they seek to ruin you.” He really meant that you should .. not be friends with Christians and Jews..?
[quote]Everything is black and white for you.[/quote]
Nonbelievers go to hell. That’s pretty black and white 😀
[quote]To respect someone’s right to disagree is not to think any less of them.[/quote]
I no way to I think less of you, Malik for your beliefs. In no way to I think badly of Jasra, Mahmood, PM, or any other Muslim/ah for their beliefs. You are all people. Humans. I’m not Steve – I’m not calling to bomb and kill people!
[quote]There is nothing you could be shown by anyone that would change your conclusion.[/quote]
Incorrect. If God came down and told me the truth, I’d believe him. Or perhaps not. Maybe it was just a bout of bad beans.
Or, more seriously, A well thought out argument that starts from the basics, traditions, histories and jurisprudence and can be used to effectively refute an extremist’s belief system will go a long way to convincing me of your claims. I will still not believe in the ‘Truth’ of the religion, but my conclusion will change.
Up until now, neither you nor anyone else has provided that. I’m reserving judgement on the Spanish fatwa until I read it in its entirety.
[Modified by: Ethan (Steelangel) on March 27, 2005 09:34 PM]
Re(8): Curing the symptoms
[quote]Oh, you mean you have to put it into context to understand it right? What exactly does stoning an adultress have to do with the fact that Jesus(SA) said that all Jews had the Devil as their father, and that they seek to do his work? [/quote]
Everything. Just read the preceding verses, and it becomes clear that the Pharasees were goading him on, and Jesus simply pointed out that if they loved God, then they would love Jesus – but they did not – therefore they did not love God.
As for your statement: The Pharasees were not ‘all Jews
Re(6): Curing the symptoms
I am working on content for my website so I will not be posting that much in the bear future. Besides which, I am getting rather bored with the same subjects. If nothing else, I have proven to you that Islam has offered great advances in the sciences. I would have thought reading so much on Islam youw ould have been aware of this, but that is neither here nor there.
I am just wondering on your take on anti-Semitism in the New Testament. Do you think when the people who wrote the Bible included the nasty little tid bits about the Jews in it that they were just speaking for the moment, or since the New Testament is seen as the word of God, does this mean anti-Semitism is a eternal fixture of Christianity? I mean, Jesus(AS), if you believe he is the son of God, wouldnt tell a lie would he?
So when Jesus(AS), in John says that Jews are the sons of the devil and seek to do the work of the devil, is he talking about just those Jews or all Jews? You have stated that God would never say anything but eternal truths. Look at what the New Testament quotes Jesus(AS) as saying. If this is the eternal law of God, it leaves one wondering. Speaking to the Jews in the temple Jesus (AS) says
John 8:44-47:
“44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.”
Jesus(AS) whom most modern Christians claim is the son of God, part of God, says that Jews are the children of the devil and there is no truth in them. That Jews do not recognise Jesus(AS) because they are not of God. Seems this is an eternal commandment against Jews. It has justified 1,500 years of hate and mass murder against Jews.