 The Angry Arab is releasing his book tomorrow: The Battle for Saudi Arabia. I am absolutely convinced that it won’t see the light of day in any of the Gulf countries so we can’t critique it. But hope to pick up a copy and make it my holiday reading! |
An Arab man's attempt at bridging the cultural gap and trying to make a difference. Failing a lot. Succeeding once in a while.
| The Angry Arab is releasing his book tomorrow: The Battle for Saudi Arabia. I am absolutely convinced that it won’t see the light of day in any of the Gulf countries so we can’t critique it. But hope to pick up a copy and make it my holiday reading! |
Comments
The Battle for Saudi Arabia
I’m sure it will be very fair and balanced. Reading it will fill me with wisdom.
— James
Re: The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Don’t knock it until you read it James. As’ad is one of the foremost critics of the Saudi regime, and he knows what’s he talking about.
The Battle for Saudi Arabia
[quote] I am absolutely convinced that it won’t see the light of day in any of the Gulf countries so we can’t critique it.[/quote]
This fact alone should be enough for James and Steve to begin the basic understanding of some of the problems people in the Gulf/ARAB world face. Decent is not looked kindly upon and often results in one dearly wishing he or she had kept their mouth shut. James has already shown his thinking so Steve should be popping off soon on the subject.
I think these both need to spend a few quality weeks in the region so they can see the GOOD things. Meet the people. Instead I suspect both will remain in the US digesting the NYT/The Boston Globe/CNN and the BBC all while falling into the doom and gloom trap.
So as always I will put my money where my mouth is and donate $50.00 towards a ticket to Bahrain for either or both. Anybody else?
Ciao!
M
Re: The Battle for Saudi Arabia
$50 from me too! They’re both more than welcome to any of my BBQs!
The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Well we are up to $100.00us for the James & Steve ME/Arab World Education Tour 2004-2005 and they have been invited to their first BBQ bythe man himself!!! Won’t some more in cyberland help this worthy cause?
Ciao!
M
The Battle for Saudi Arabia
NO! Not Steve, maybe James but I need to ponder on that a while yet!
Steve gained access to our converstions by posing as a liberal posing as a person who wishes to understand us before judging. He is exposed through his posts as a fundementalist American colonialist! We should tolerate him as we than we do a boil on our arse! No more, no less!
James, however, SEEMS to bear wishes to understand this part of the world and how we came to be in the position we are in now…. so let James be for the time being! (Having said that I need to rifle through James’s posts and see if I missed some lack of intelligence, I dont think so!
Re: The Battle for Saudi Arabia
[quote]NO! Not Steve, maybe James but I need to ponder on that a while yet! [/quote]
Did you ever stop to think that perhaps we would like to send Steve into a forced EXILE from US shores for a while? Regardless [b]you can [/b]make a donation for 1 and not the other if you desire.
Re: The Battle for Saudi Arabia
[b]He is exposed through his posts as a fundementalist American colonialist![quote]
I think good ole fashion REDNECK American Jackass is better description. Americans haven’t been colonialist in the true sense of the term. He has shown that he forgets to take his Ritalin, Zoloft and Prozac now and then as he rotates from sane to full fledge diatribes on day by day, hour by hour and post by post basis exposing his complete un-understanding of the issues and an unwillingness to listen.
PS.
Steve, try some XANAX in your pill rotation.
Re: The Battle for Saudi Arabia
The problems the people of the Middle East face are largely of their own making. For example, the Wahhabi Terror emanates from Saudi Arabia not through any injustice done to the Saudis by America. By contrast, the Saudis have become enormously wealthy through their relationship with the US. They chose to make a religious war on the world without any pressure to do so. This jihad is a natural expression of their culture.
Mark, you are really arguing against your own position if you say the decent position can not be even presented in the Middle East. Think through the underlying reasons for this. Why is the decent position a minority position?
I have no doubt there are good people in the Middle East, people who want to live their lives, who want to do no harm to others. My focus is entirely on Saudi Arabia, which is an exceptional case. You are misstating my position when you claim my oppostion to the Saudis is opposition to the Middle East as a whole. That’s false.
And Mark, I certainly would not take my positions from the NYT/The Boston Globe/CNN and the BBC, which convey various degrees of leftist slant. The BBC has no credibility with me at all. The NYT cooks its stories a little, the BBC a lot.
I’m interested in the stories of people who have travelled the region but I consider them only one view of the subject. You can be more knowledgeable about countries through distant study than some people who travel them. It’s like Napolean’s mule who served in dozens of campaigns yet he was not considering making him a field marshal. I don’t consider each traveller an absolute authority on the lands he crosses. He can supply a piece of the total mosaic.
The bottom line is that I take a dim view of the Saudis because the facts lead me to that position. However, if you have some facts that support a positive view of the Saudis, please post them. I’d be very interested to read them.
Steve
Re(1): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
It’s not listed on Amazon.com yet. Is it published in the West?
Steve
Re(2): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
next few days I think, follow the links in the main article for more info.
Re: The Battle for Saudi Arabia
I have never posed as liberal. Anywhere. Anytime.
And I don’t see any specific rebuttal of my harsh position on the Saudis. I read general advice to give the Saudis more time, try more diplomacy, do more for the Saudis, etc. What I don’t read is any specific argument that will stop the Saudis from mounting another terror attack on America. These arguments assume that America should accept all the risk in managing the Saudi provocations. I don’t accept that argument. These arguments boil down to Americans accepting more American dead while the Saudis drag their feet toward some sort of half-hearted solution.
I will admit my posts have been considerably inflamed by watching the Saudis cut heads off infidels in the past few weeks.
Steve
Re(1): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
I would be happy to down some Xanax if it would stop Saudis from killing Americans.
You have spouted quite a bit of ad hominem nonsense but not many rebuttals to my specific argument: The Saudis can only be stopped in their jihad against America by force.
Please list why you think this is a flawed argument.
Steve
Re(1): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Who gives a rat’s arse what Steve, James or some other fuckwit out in Hicksville Alabama thinks? Americans don’t have any input into foreign policy formulation anyway – its all decided by various lobby groups loyal to third countries.
The Battle for Saudi Arabia
John Bradley’s article in the Daily Star on Saudi is worth a look – http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=5&article_id=5624
The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Mahmood,
What do you make of As’ad? I know he is critical of the Saudis, but then he’s critical of everyone, and that doesn’t stop him from traveling all over the ME any time he wants.
I know he is trying to tell us all just to play nice, but his simplistic view of things really doesn’t get it done when someone wants to behead you. Thanks.
Marlene
Re(1): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
[quote]However, if you have some facts that support a positive view of the Saudis, please post them. I’d be very interested to read them. [/quote]
Steve,
Nothing I say, that J.J. says, Cha’nad or Mahmood or anyone else is going to open your eyes. FACTS have been given to you from people that are in THE KNOW. You have chosen to ignore them. YOU HAVE NO CLUE about how things are in the Gulf. NONE. ZERO ZIP. You have never been in the area. READ all you want. Nothing wrong with that but until you spend some time in the GULF, decide to open your mind and LISTEN to those who LIVE there and to those who have strong ties to the region. You come across as a ranting nutter who is INTENT on nothing but DEATH to SAUDIS.
Well, I for one am calling you to the carpet. The PUNK card has been dropped. Lead, follow or shut the BLEEP up. Your thoughts and ideas are well documented on this site TIME and TIME again. How you rationalize those thoughts is YOUR business. Cramming your twisted views and concepts of the region here is getting old and insulting. Do you think we are all ignorant? Incapable of rational thought?
I and MANY others are tired of you constant “Kill em all and let GOD sort them out” attitude. Now before you get all in a snit there are more than a few Saudis I would personally take out given the chance. One is on the other side of the Gulf hiding in a f;n cave. Yeah Steve your right some Saudi Princes has been passing out cash to terrorists. What you fail to grasp, more like IGNORE is at last count there are HUNDREDS of Princes in Saudi. So within your twisted realm we should NUKE the whole lot. FUCK the rest. Whack the ones who are trying to bring change. You might win the battle but you sure WILL LOSE THE WAR that way. But hey you ex Military RIGHT? You know this… Damn right the Saudis have MAJOR problems BUT I thank GOD you are not in on the solution.
I would truly like to see $2500 raised in pledges so we can get you a ticket to the GULF. I want to take you to Hofuf to the Camel Market and the Beduins. To some dunes outside of Khobar that is 4 wheel HEAVEN!. Stop by Gentlemen’s Thobe and get you some LOCAL attire, to Jeddah and see the Grave of EVE. Yeah Steve, EVE from ADAM and EVE. Jeddah is Grandmother I believe in Arabic. (Someone correct me if I am wrong.) The Asir National Park, Jubail the Industrial City. In Bahrain, the BarBar Temple, Dilmun, Burial Mounds, THE FIRST OIL WELL, The Riffa Castle, The Old Fort, Dhow makers, the potters at Al Awi, Mahmood’s OFFCIE, (good coffee I understand) FUDDRUCKERS, PIZZA HUT, SENOR PACOS, KFC and after your first case of food poisoning a trip to the regions first and oldest hospital the American Mission Hospital in Manama. If your lucky you can see the regions most famous cat. (Joke for Mahmood)
The only way there is a chance for you to understand what is going on is for you to see and experience it. Until this can happen: LAY off the DEATH CHANTS.
Ciao!
Mark
Re(1): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
[/quote]I will admit my posts have been considerably inflamed by watching the Saudis cut heads off infidels in the past few weeks. [quote]
Steve what you have seen are a bunch of jack booted murdering thugs,who happen to be Saudi nationals. NOT a BUNCH of SAUDIS per se. Always with the ABOSLUTES with you in your thinking. Again you just can’t seem to grasp the big picture.
Re(2): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Keep reading the National Enquirer, you just might spot Elvis. If you would like, I think I can find you a 6th Grade Civics book that might be just right for you. In the absence of a demure I will assume all responses from you are in the positive.
Re(2): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Actually, I’m in Washington, DC. Your obvious prejudices, vulgarity, and conspiracy theorizing undermine your inarticulate rebuttal.
Steve
The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Thanks Mahmood. I do visit his site; I try not to comment because some of the stuff he posts is obviously so one sided that he ticks me off. He just lays stuff out there, and it’s easy to get caught up with that instead of the the big picture that he believes in. I think that’s it anyway; I’ll keep working on it.
Re(2): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
[quote]FACTS have been given to you from people that are in
THE KNOW. You have chosen to ignore them. YOU HAVE NO CLUE about how things are in the Gulf. NONE. ZERO ZIP. You have never been in the area.[/quote]
That’s a false claim, Mark. I have a moderately informed view of how things work in the Gulf through study at a distance. Nor do I need to visit the Gulf to gain knowledge of it. Your assumption that knowledge can only be gained by direct experience is false. If so, there would be no need for universities, which are all about learning by indirect experience.
I certainly am interested in Mahmood’s claim that there are moderate Saudis. I need corroboration of that claim through other sources. While I am interested in the view of people who have direct experience, I expect such views to dovetail with other sources before I accept them.
And let me point out that you have not offered a practical alternative to war with respect to the Saudis. You are just outraged that I am adamant about it.
[quote]I and MANY others are tired of you constant “Kill em all and let GOD sort them out” attitude.[/quote]
Mark, I have said no such thing. You are falsely attributing some sort of religious motive to me, trying to reframe my views as an Inquisitor seeking to kill heretics. More precisely, I advocate decimating, not annihilating, Saudi Arabia to stop their jihad against America. I honestly believe that nothing short of that will work. If the Saudis gave up their jihad and its head-cutting, I would abandon my recommendation for a counterattack.
[quote]Well, I for one am calling you to the carpet. The PUNK card has been dropped. Lead, follow or shut the BLEEP up.[/quote]
This is a sophomoric challenge.
I am in fact leading opinion by marshalling the arguments for bringing the Saudis war back to their doorsteps, where it belongs.
[quote]Yeah Steve your right some Saudi Princes has been passing out cash to terrorists. What you fail to grasp, more like IGNORE is at last count there are HUNDREDS of Princes in Saudi. So within your twisted realm we should NUKE the whole lot. **** the rest.[/quote]
There are actually 3000 to 4000 Saudi princes. A handful are known to support Al Qaeda with cash. There are probably more that we don’t know. That is a fairly small, elite club running a small, tightly-controlled country. I doubt there is much that goes on that is not common knowledge among the bulk of the princes. Saudi princes are not exactly independent actors but tend to be conformists. They don’t do things that would bring disapproval of the other princes.
Contrary to your assertion, I have never advocated nuking the Saudis. Conventional weapons would suffice. Nor have I advocated annihilating the Saudis, which is impossible for practical purposes. What I do advocate is taking the war the Saudis started back to them. The experience of fighting the Germans and Japanese in WWII is that the belligerent populations support the war when it is far from their shores and are only convinced of its folly when it marches back through their streets.
[quote]Whack the ones who are trying to bring change.[/quote]
Mark, please name any Saudi prince who is trying to reform the Wahhabi establishment. I don’t know of any. Please tell me who they are, what reforms they propose, and what success they have enjoyed.
[quote]You might win the battle but you sure WILL LOSE THE WAR that way. But hey you ex Military RIGHT? You know this… Damn right the Saudis have MAJOR problems BUT I thank GOD you are not in on the solution.[/quote]
I disagree that taking the war to the Saudis would lead to failure any more than taking the war to the Germans or Japanese in WWII would have led to failure. If I saw any cause for encouragement from the Saudis, I would advocate something other than military force. However, such is not the case.
The Saudis have consistently denied and concealed Wahhabi terror, have obstructed our investigation of attacks launched by Saudis, have been willfully negligent in their pursuit of Wahhabi killers in their own country, have supported murderous attacks on Westerners with weapons and uniforms and police cars, and now offer Wahhabi terrorists immunity.
All this demonstrates the sympathy of the Saudis for the Wahhabi terrorists and the folly of relying on the good faith of the Saudis as the foundation for a solution.
[quote]The only way there is a chance for you to understand what is going on is for you to see and experience it. Until this can happen: LAY off the DEATH CHANTS.[/quote]
As I have stated before, direct experience is not the only way to understand a region. It is one way of many. My own experience is that often you can not understand something you experience directly except with study. While travel in the Middle East would be helpful, you can understand the Middle East without going there just as you can understand the Roman Empire without experiencing it.
It would be very interesting to see Saudi Arabia but even in good times the Saudis are not exactly welcoming to Western tourists. Even the Western employees of oil companies there must live cloistered lives, segregated from Saudi citizens, as if they were germs. Where in the civilized world are the natives so fearful of and hateful to foreigners? Certainly not in the States. And now, there is a substantial risk that a Westerner travelling loose in Saudi Arabia will lose his head at the hand of Saudi maniacs.
About once per month, a Houston headhunter firm emails me a job opening for Aramco in Saudi Arabia. I laugh at it. Who would go work in Saudi Arabia in the teeth of such murderous hostility from the Saudi people? I forward it to my friends as a joke.
I would love to see the Middle East, the Pyramids, the Sphinx, the Valley of the Kings, the cradle of civilization, Petra, and more. Maybe twenty years ago it would have been safe for a Westerner to see those sights, but not now. Not now nor anytime soon. On a more personal level, I don’t feel comfortable travelling to region where a substantial minority, at least, hates me for not sharing their religion. The Middle East is hardly a welcoming place for an American. I wish that were not so.
This war is not of my making. I did not hijack any Saudia airliner and crash it into the Ka’aba. I do not urge anyone to do so. I would be happy to support the Saudis if they were honest and willing to suppress the violence that springs from their kingdom. I wouldn’t even care if they raged about America day and night in their media as long as that talk did not translate into the murder of Americans.
The Saudis started this war. It is clear that they are not willing to give it up. They only making grudging efforts to appear to be cracking down when the heat from America rises. There is no fundamental reconfiguration of the Saudi hate machine that propels this jihad forward.
I see no peaceful solution. The Saudis are not interested in peace with infidels. The only practical solution I see is to bring the jihad home to the Saudis.
Steve
Re(1): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Mahmood,
Don’t I wish I could take advantage of your hospitality to spend a pleasant afternoon samping your barbecue. My experience is that all barbecue is good, no matter what my doctor says. I wouldn’t mind trying a bite of shawarma, either. Most of all it would be a pleasure to see new and unusual things outside my experience.
Steve
Re(2): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Where are the objections of the everyday Saudis to these crimes?
According to the Saudi who blogs as the Religious Policeman, these murder sprees against Westerners are openly supported by a substantial minority of everyday Saudis at least. He says that news of infidel killings are greeted in Saudi offices with fists punched in the air and high fives. It sounds like ordinary Saudis celebrate these crimes without any objection from their friends and coworkers.
Based on that and the lack of Saudi enthusiasm for pursuing these killers, I would disagree with your assertion that these murderers are not representative of Saudi society. It appears that they are considered by ordinary Saudis to be heroes dealing deserved deaths to infidels.
I see the Big Picture, and it is very dark.
Steve
Re: The Battle for Saudi Arabia
That was a very interesting article. Not what I expected at all. Thanks for posting it.
Steve
Re(2): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Steve, consider this an open invitation, whenever you have the urge to come to this part of the world, you are most welcome to sample by barbecue! I might even be able to arrange a few people from both sides of the divide to debate and discuss and expand horizons.
Re: The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Any view when interpreted through a lens of beheading or any other heinous crime would be distilled to simplistic Marlene, however, As’ad is far from simplistic. He’s a knife who cuts through a lot of crap on both sides of the story and has firm views on Arab politics. He’s originally Lebanese, now an American citizen teaching in a university in California.
Although his travels seem to be unhindered in the Middle East, he would not be welcome (banned) in Saudi. He gets invited a lot to Al-Jazeera debates and you should see one of those, he beats the shit out of Islamists that their heads spin and sometimes they just up and leave the studio in a live broadcast.
Look at his site again and see some of his posts. You’ll probably find that he’s a liberal who craves proper change in the Arab world.
Re(1): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
My GOD!! Has a wee bit of a light BULB start to glow in your head Steve?
Re(1): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Perhaps if the subject steers clear from his pathological hatred of my country, he might not be a gibbering freak.
However, I cannot contribute to his financial success. I hope you read it and post any relevent facts here, with your own insight added.
— James
Re: The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Visiting Bahrain would be awesome! Can I spend a few hours with one of those tall blonde Russian call girls that flock to your upscale hotels? Mmmmm….
But seriously, if I wasn’t afraid of losing my head or being stuffed in a dark prison for a few years for daring to buy some blackmarket whiskey, I’d definitely look forward to visiting the area. Especially the Burj Al Arab!
— James
Re(2): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
James,
As’ad is US citizen. So perhaps you need get over your patholgical hatred and fear of Arabs/Muslims.
Re: The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Well, I would like to see the entire Saudi Royal family strung up from lampposts, so does that disqualify me?
— James
Re(1): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Which is why he spits all over what we’re doing in Iraq. I think he just hates himself and life in general with an intensity that’s almost time-space-continuum-shredding.
— James
Re(3): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Again Steve, nothing that I say, that J.J. says, Chan’ad or Mahmood or anyone else is going
to open your eyes. FACTS have been given to you from people that are in
THE KNOW. AGAIN and AGAIN. You have chosen to ignore them and you seem INTENT on holding and expressing your views DESPITE this. That is FINE and it is YOUR right. By the way Steve that is not something most in the Gulf can’t do and feel SAFE doing it. That fact no matter how hard people tell you is lost.
I can only hope at some point you will clear the haze from your eyes and the hate from your heart. Then perhaps you will be a viable part of the solution. At present you are part of the problem with your kill SAUDI diatribes that you take great pleasure in posting.
Re(1): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
There is no reason to feel unsafe in Bahrain unless your with a Russian call girl. Things could start falling off of a guy after a visit with one of them..
BTW.. Alcohol is legal in Bahrain.
Re(4): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
I am none too impressed by your self-righteous tone nor by your reluctance to address the facts and reasons I present for my position. No matter how much you object to it, taking the Saudi’s war back to them is a viable solution.
I am also not convinced by your insistence that nobody in the Gulf can speak out because of the repressive environment. History demonstrates otherwise. No matter how hostile the government to free speech, opposition still finds a way to express itself. In the Soviet Union, there was the samizdat press and defectors who exposed their authoritarian systems from within. Where is the Saudi samizdat press which opposes Wahhabi repression? Where are the Saudi defectors bravely condemning the lack of liberty in their homeland? Where is the Saudi Solzhenitsyn making a moral attack on the Saudi system?
This opposition to Wahhabi rule is simply not to be discerned from the outside. I need to see evidence to be persuaded. The lack of such evidence of opposition and the wealth of evidence of support for Wahhabism tilts the scale of proof sharply toward the view that Saudis support the Wahhabi way of life and the violence it projects.
To be blunt, your appeasement of the Saudis is part of the problem. You facilitate their pathology.
Steve
Re(2): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
So far Bahrain looks like an oasis of relative sanity in dangerous and crazy neighborhood. How did that happen? Why didn’t Bahrain get sucked into the Saudi sphere of control?
Steve
Re(5): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Steve
That is the second time you have put words in my mouth that I did say or imply. I suggest you don’t do it again.Steve you don’t get it and at this time I doubt you ever will. To be blunt Steve you are a boderline racist. An admitted SAUDIAPHOBE. All you need is White Hood to match your bedsheets and your ready to burn some crosses.
Steve I wish you the best in your plastic world. May your dreams be filled with nuking of Saudi cities as you have expressed many times before. I just hope the wholesale hate that burns in your heart doesn’t burn you up.
Re(2): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
I’m still waiting for a logical rebuttal of my points from the likes of you. I see ad hominem arguments like this above, but no engagement in debate. Why should America suffer all the deaths and risks of the Saudi jihad? Why would Saudi Arabia cease its jihad when it has suffered no destruction in its homeland as it has caused in America nor has America harmed any Saudi in their homeland? While America hesitates to throw a punch at Saudi Arabia, what negative consequence does it suffer that would dissuade the Saudis from their murderous religious rampage?
You may shine a light on any of these questions for me, as you like.
Steve
The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Nothing like a good spirited hot headed debate with a bit of mud slinging to boot! Now just think if me and Steve where running against each other in an election!!!! Just wait till the second or third elections in Bahrain.
Mark
Re(2): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
[quote]Alcohol is legal in Bahrain[/quote]
True, but don’t you have gangs of brainwashed young men attacking restaurants who serve alcohol? Or maybe that was Kuwait.
I’m a bit confused here, though. The Saudis ban alcohol because it’s against the Koran. So, does the Koran forbid alcohol or not? And if it does, how can Bahrain’s laws go against the Koran?
— James
The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Glad to have you back, JJ. Both of those guys have every right to say what they want because of free speech. While I personally think MM and Jerry Farewell are birds of a feather, just different birds, I have a real problem with Richard Clarke making money off his own failures.
Anyway, now that you are back you can break up the brawls until Mahmood gets back, although Mark does a pretty good job.
Regards,
M
Re(3): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
There was a group a young men who tried to stage “protest” over “alcohol” in a restaurant. One of the patrons stabed one of the “protesters” and that was that. I understand the one who did the stabbing was a Bahrani as well. (Worse has been seen after a Boston Bruins game)
Dont’ confuse Bahrain with Saudi Arabia. Two different countrys.
Bahrains basic legal system is molded somewhat along English common law and Islamic law. As for the issue of what the Koran does and does not allow I do not know as I am an Infidel Christian who just goes to church in Bahrain when I am there. And to the A&E and to the Golf Course at Riffa etc etc etc
Re: The Battle for Steve and James
Jasra,
Being a gentleman, I would never consent to let a lady pay my way. Unless she’s fabulously wealthy. Then it’s OK.
I also saw Fahrenheit 9/11 last Friday night. I thought it was a pretty dishonest piece of work, though it did have a couple laughs. For example, when the congressman explains they never read any of the bills they pass. That explained a lot.
Steve
Who is M?
I always thought M and Mark were one and the same? Ze plot thickens, does it not?!
I dunno about RIchard Clarke .. One doesnt serve that long in an administration´and then decide to shaft it just because he wants to make money. I think he has some very valid points to make about the failure of the Bush administration to deal with a threat that presented/ presents a very clear and present danger.
The one thing that hit me the most though was that we would have to wait a long time before we could have a book like that written in this part of the world …
Jasra Jedi
Re(3): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Steve ..
Just a few points:
1. The anti American feeling in Saudi cannot and is not wholly explained by the fact that Americans are not Moslems. i.e. You cannot attribute the whole movement to religion. It actually started in direct response to perceived US foriegn policy in the region. The religious undertones came later. (Think about Iran. The revolution was not started for religion reasons – but was taken over by Khomeini after people started rebelling agasint the Shah.)
2. I would be interested in your explanation of how a moderate Saudi Moslem (of which there were many 20 years ago) became a violent Isalmic terrorist? And I would be interested if you think that religion is a major cause, or effect of the shift in demographics and socio-economic realities on the ground.
Jasra Jedi
.
The Battle for Saudi Arabia
I sometime sign as “M” but the above was not me. Mahmood can confirm this with an IP check if needed. 99% of the time I sign with
Ciao! or Ciao
Mark M
If I am not signed in. Never with “regards”. So… From now on I will SIGN IN to avoid any confusion. So please mystery “M” poster please show yourself!! I will off for a couple of days as duty calls.
Re(4): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Jasra,
You are returning in a rather feisty mood, aren’t you? Personally, I’d prefer more of that Middle Eastern female subservience to male opinion in the future, thank you very much.
The delicately worded “objection to US foreign policy” could more starkly be called the objection to US support for the existence of Israel. That certainly is a largely religious objection.
I’d say the Iranian revolution was caused by the weakness of the Shah. Most revolutions trade a weak tyranny for a stronger and deadlier one. The French Revolution overturned a rather benign authoritarian king for the Reign Of Terror. The Russian Revolution overturned a rather benign authoritarian king for the bloodythirsty Bolsheviks. I quite agree with you that Khomeini hijacked the chaos of the Shah’s fall to start his revolution, which launched bloodier pogroms than he.
The Islamist literature I see always refers to religion. It specifically states as its goal the conquest of the world for Islam. This is the Wahhabi script written in Saudi Arabia and promoted to the world. If there is some reason to hate America other than religion, the Wahhabis have been shy about stating it.
As I understand it, the really big oil money began pouring into Saudi Arabia about thirty years ago, which allowed the Wahhabis to construct a system of education that methodically indoctrinated the children in their extremist philosophy. That doctrine now thoroughly pervades Saudi Arabia and explains the sharper criticism of the West and America in particular.
The way the Saudi princes managed those oil billions exacerbated the problem. They subsidized their population to buy peace. Like any living population, when the environment favors them, they reproduce in greater numbers. Inevitably, they outgrow their resources. The Saudis were very short-sighted in this respect.
The Saudis are like lottery winners when their jackpot payments run out after twenty years. They’re worse off than before they won. While their peers were working and acquiring skills to support themselves, the Saudis were wasting their time in fruitless pursuits. Had they spent their winnings improving themselves they would not be in such dire straits today.
Now their numbers are swelling while oil revenue declines and no other industries have been developed to occupy the unemployed. Their standard of life is sliding. The easy life is gone. Saudis are forced to take the jobs formerly performed by cheap foreign labor. That is fairly fertile ground for revolution. Add to it the gap between their perception of themselves as a superior race and the reality of their reduced circumstances, clearly inferior to even infidels who can’t quote one sura from the Koran and yet are wildly successful.
Perhaps the bottom line is that the Saudis have been cursed with wealth. Had they not owned such oil deposits, they may have been forced to engage the world and develop their human capital to compete in the world economy. They would have been stronger for it. Wealth has allowed them to indulge their worst tendencies, perhaps to the point of catastrophe.
Steve
The Battle for Steve and James
I dont come online for a day or two, and what happens? Civil War in Mahmood’s log!
Actually – I would contribute to Steve’s fund – only because he has a dry sense of humor. Surprising in an American. James I dont know too well. But – am willing to adopt a wait and see attitude.
Incidentally – I recently saw Michael Moore’s Farenhiet 9-11. Interesting! I also just read Richard Clarke’s book Agasint all Enemies. Even more interesting!!
Jasra Jedi
Re: Who is M?
Jasra
Clarke did not work for “W” for that long. He did serve with Clinton for 8 years and I think with Bush #1 as well. He was a career government “HACK” employee who never made that much money in his job. (a Democrat as well I believe) I tend to think his motives are driven more by the $$$$ and how he was tossed out on in ass by this administration. Clarke has also said last week the MM movie is wrong on several points. Specifcly about the Bin Laden family members in the US leaving on “strange” flights. Moores movie is just that. A MOVIE. It is not a documentary as Moore would like to pass it of. It does have some interesting points but in the end it is a film that is not gettin much of a viewing audiance past NY, LA, DC and Boston and even here it is thin.
Don’t forget “W” had only been in office for about 9 months when 9-11 happend. Just about enough time to getones sea legs in DC. Few could have imagined that something this could happen. Not on this scale. Clinton had 8 years with UBL/Terrorism issue on the Radar screen and some like Monsoor Ijaz claim Clinton turned down UBL’s capture more than once in the 90’s. We may not know who knew what, where and when for years to come. Even here in the good ole USA not all of the JFK files are open and it has over 40 years. Just food for thought. Not all that is written is true nor all MM movies are real. Funny perhpas at times but not all factual. Moore HATES President Bush. At least his BIAS is out in the open. Speaking of BIAS try a book by Bernard Goldman call “BIAS”. Good insiders views of how network news in the US works.
Re(6): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Your position is that no complaint is made by the people of Saudi Arabia because they can not speak out under their government’s regime. Is that a correct statement of your position? If not, state it. If so, I have pointed out that there is no tyranny so complete that dissenting voices are completely silenced. You have not addressed this argument. You evade it in favor of epithets.
Yes, I am a Saudiphobe because they have attacked my country and killed three thousand Americans. They make no apology for it but rather promise more of the same. This was not some rogue group but one supported and funded by the Saudi government, carrying out the murderous war on America publicly advocated in their government-controlled media, government-controlled education system, and government-controlled mosques. They have made preposterous lies at the highest levels to deny their involvement. They have hindered our efforts to investigate these crimes and stop future attacks.
Can you understand why this would inspire my contempt? What part do you think is unreasonable?
Your accusation of racism is muddle-headed and vile. Saudis are not a race but rather citizens of a state, composed of many different races. I despise Saudis because they are trying to kill me to promote their religion. I object to being killed. If they cease this murderous behavior, my objection to them will cease. It is obtuse at best and duplicitous at worst to overlook the Saudis murderous intentions toward Americans and characterize my revulsion to these mass murderers as racism. Such wild accusations are a measure of your desperation to defend the Saudis.
And you have the race card upside down, as well. It is the Saudis who call Americans “white meat” and “pig meat” in their communications with each other and in their murder plots. That sounds like a racial slur to me. What does it sound like to you?
Allow me to point out that you do not address any of my arguments but rather resort to name-calling, the lowest form of argument, a logical fallacy. My view is that you can not defend your position with facts and reason and so are forced to defend it fallaciously.
For America to be safe from further Saudi attacks, we need to return their jihad to them with interest. As long as Saudis can launch attacks against Americans without risk in their home, they will continue to do so. The Saudis will not cease their religious war against us until Saudis start dying as a consequence of their aggression.
Steve
Re(1): Who is M?
Michael Moore’s “Fahrenheit 9/11” is not a documentary at all but rather propaganda. Documentaries present the facts without taking a point of view. Think National Geographic. Moore certainly has a point of view. He constructs his own “facts.”
For example, he repeats the canard that the Bin Laden family were ushered on to flights without any interrogation by the FBI while the US civil air fleet was grounded immediately after Sep 11. This is false. This story came out in the months after the attack but was debunked by an FBI agent who conducted interviews with the Bin Laden family members and other Saudis who departed on these chartered flights. He said that almost all the Saudis on board were interviewed by the FBI except for a few who were cleared without interviewing. These flights did not take off until after the flight ban was lifted.
These facts were public knowledge long before Moore finished his film. He chose to run with the myth that supported his propaganda theme rather than the facts that undermined it.
In another scene, he shows a clip of Bush apparently saying, “…a dictatorship’d be a heck of a lot easier….” He does this to promote his theme of Bush as dictator. In fact the full quote is from after a meeting with congressmen, “I told all four that there were going to be some times where we don’t agree with each other. But that’s OK. If this were a dictatorship, it’d be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I’m the dictator.” The point of Bush’s remark is that democracy is harder work than a dictatorship, but produces better results. Moore dishonestly cuts that clip to make it mean something else entirely.
Moore’s propaganda film is a concatenation of such edits and sleight of hand. That said, it is undeniably popular with the Left. The sixteen theater movie house here in the DC area where I saw it had two four hundred seat theaters showing it, which were three fourths full at show time. A good portion of the mostly twenty-ish audience were verbally enthusiastic at many points. My impression was that they didn’t care whether it was true or not, they just like to see Moore throwing his dung at Bush.
Steve
Re(7): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Steve,
Again you show your colors. You do not listen. I and many others on this board have explained things to you in great detail. Yet you keep lumping ALL SAUDIS as the problem. As I have said before you make some great points but you loose the arguement with your chants of DEATH TO SAUDIS.
I am not defending the Saudis per se. I am defending rational thought against your diatribes. STOP painting all with a broad fucking brush. That is what you can’t seem to get through you thick skull. I would have thought after the last dope slap from Mahmood about how your comments come across you would get it. Nothing wrong with honest differance of thought. Hells bells that is a HEALHTY thing. A GOOD THING.
Saying I want to kill Wahabis/terrorist isn’t good enough for you. Most will agree the elimination of this rancid form of pond scum is good for all. Doesn’t mean after it would be done we will all sit around, hug each other and hold hands and sing songs together like a vision of a 60’s love child still on Acid. No you say you want to KILL ALL SAUDIS and NUKE Saudi cities, under the guise that the Saudis are trying to kill you. Steve that is not true. Are there some Saudis that do? YOU KNOW IT. I bet some are here in the US as well.
What is true is you are an admitted Saudiaphope/racist and in effect be doing so you become no better than the asswipes that are smaking planes into buildings. You can’t rationalize with them either. You don’t get it because you refuse open you eyes and mind. You would rather bathe in wholesale hate of an entire population, most who may not give a shit about the WEST but that does not mean they want to kill us.
Didn’t the Bradley article say anything to you?
If you would at least seperate your feelings and comments from regular everyday Saudis to those who do want to cause harm you would have a much greater effect. Heck why not hate all from Bahrain as well. They have some nutters in GITMO. Does that mean every Bahraini wants to kill Americans? Same with Kuwait and all the GCC and Arab nations. Damn Steve even the Aussies have a couple as well. Should fire up a Trident for them as well? O christ Steve. there is a US citizen or two in the mix as well. Shall we nuke ourselves also?? Glad I have that bomb shelter. Let me know before you flip the switch.
Leave no doubt. The Saudis have some serious problem and there are some real scary ones in the mix. If I was a young Saudi or Arab forming my thoughts and I ran accross your rants it sure in the hell would turn me off towards Americans and the West. Your not being part of the solution. At least not a logical one. That is your right as well if you wish. Better I feel to work toward a logical end than subscribe to the “Kill em all and let God Sort them out” way you put forth. Steve that is not a religious chant. It is a line taken from a Steven King movie that seems to fit well in this context. I want blood for those that caused 9-11 as well. I want revenge. Only I think revenge is a dish best served cold and properly. Pardon any spelling “misteaks”. Been a long day.
Re(2): Who is M?
On the record as saying I agree with Steves post on this subject 100%. So for those that think WE might want to KILL each other that is not that case from MY point of view at least. What do you think about calling it a Docucomedy? Docudrama? A twisted view of facts, healthy doses of fiction and some comedy relief just for grins?
I want to make a movie called “Michael Moore: Big FAT French Looking American Liar”
Re(4): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Talking or trying to debate with Steve is as pointless as a chocolate sunshade! His mind is made up and nothing can change that, his only purpose is to rant, lecture and ‘try’ and bully others into seeing through the rigid black coloured lenses of his eyes.
There is no point, in my opinion. He has a veneer of hard cold steel which permeates through his writings, he has a most off putting manner and self righteous that immediately puts my hackles up. Am i alone in feeling like this about our hard nosed friend Steve?
Some of what (and I mean some!) I can agree with or would wish to debate more but no way would I go converse with him because of his severe attitude.
Re(3): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
I don’t care what his citizenship is, he still hates MY country. And if I had a pathological hatred of Arabs, I’d hate Mahmood too.
Re(5): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
It is true that I have a severe attitude toward the Saudis as a result of their attack on America on Sep 11. Had the Saudis made an honest account of their involvement and made a real effort to change their murderously belligerent attitude to America, I would have a more sympathetic attitude toward them. That isn’t the reality.
I’d be happy to entertain any solutions to the Saudi jihad that fall short of war. I don’t see any posted on this thread. The position of those who disagree with me seems to be that the US should just accept American deaths until the Saudis stop.
I think the main difference between us is the weight we put on the lives of the American dead. You don’t seem to give them much weight and so therefore consider any violent action against the Saudis as extreme. I give them an immense amount of weight and also weigh heavily the lives of those the Saudis would slaughter if we do not act decisively to neutralize their threat.
Steve
The Battle for Saudi Arabia
Tis me, Marlene. Sorry. Some days I have all I can do to remember to sign my name after a post, and some days I am just lazy and do M. Actually did register yesterday, but activation code won’t work so…
Anyway, I think Clarke is sincerely sorry that people got killed, but that’s not good enough. It was HIS job. I watched him testify, watched all the talk shows, compared notes from other witnesses; and he was content with the status quo like everyone else, so he ought not to be pointing a finger at anyone let alone cashing in right in the middle of the 9/11 hearings. Didn’t hear him on the TV after 9/11 apologizing to the families; what took him so long? Both Clinton and Bush blew it; it was just business as usual until 9/11. They probably figured they’d just send another cruise missile and blow up a camp or two after OBL and company blew up another embassy somewhere, say something like “don’t do that no more
The Battle for Saudi Arabia
The everbuilding population explosion in Saudi, in a stagnant economy ?
And islam and the royals,
see, no capitals for either,
it all looks a long way from democracy and free speech,
an uneducated populace, two thirds of all phds given are for islamic studies, in a welfare society living off oil.
A nice recipe for …….
scarf
My money on James! S.F.A for Steve!
Okay, I have pondered and shall put some money up for James to visit us here in sunny bahrain. He can be quite severe and blatant in his views but doesnt scare people off because he has a friendly manner and an engaging sense of humour and I giggle often at him.
Steve, i cant give you some of my cash to visit us, you are a bitter evil, twisted rigid minded, arrogant pompous arse! And I mean that in the kindest possible way! Your manner stifles healthy debate instead of encouraging it, you frighten people away from this board with your over use of quote boxes and you pedantic diatribes, bet your hero is Rush Limbaugh.
Re: My money on James! S.F.A for Steve!
Well, as long as you meant it in the kindest possible way, then I guess it’s OK.
I am quite rigidly narrow-minded when it comes to defending America, so you may have a point there, and Sep 11 brings out all my worst qualities. But I did rather warm to your objection to my posts as pedantic. Of all the invective I have endured here for my opinion, I think I enjoyed yours the best.
I imagine its the weekend for you folks in Bahrain already. This is a three day weekend for those of us in the States. You can find me on the National Mall this Sunday, watching the fireworks on the Fourth of July. I hope you all have as fine a weekend as I intend to have.
Steve
Re(8): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
[quote]bonsaimark:
Again you show your colors. You do not listen. I and many others on this board have explained things to you in great detail. [/quote]
I have indeed listened, but disagree and have stated my reasons for disagreeing, which you do not address. You resort instead to insult and name-calling, which leads me to believe that you can not rebut my arguments rationally.
[quote]No you say you want to KILL ALL SAUDIS and NUKE Saudi cities, under the guise that the Saudis are trying to kill you. Steve that is not true.[/quote]
This is a considerable distortion of my position. I have never argued for killing all Saudis, just enough to make them stop killing Americans. The most extreme argument I have made is that we should kill one hundred Saudis for every American they killed on Sep 11 and beyond. That’s about 300,000 Saudis out of a population of 26 million, about 1% of the total population. If we establish in the Saudi mind that they will suffer one hundred dead for every American they kill, it seems very likely to force them to reconsider their jihad.
I have never advocated nuking Saudi cities and have explicitly rejected nukes. They are unnecessary. I propose an air campaign against Saudi cities if Wahhabi revolutionaries can overthrow the House of Saud. My target selections would be Riyadh, in retaliation for the Saudi attack on our capital, and Jiddah, in retaliation for New York City.
As for your point that not all all Saudis want to kill Americans, perhaps technically that is true. There is probably at least one Saudi somewhere who opts out. However, I just don’t see any serious nor significant objection from ordinary Saudis to shedding infidel American blood. Nowhere have I seen a Saudi plainly state that the Saudis who massacred three thousand Americans on Sep 11 were wrong and they reject it. If you know of some who do, please list it.
What I do see is some lip service from Arabs in general that Sep 11 was terrible, followed by an assertion that America deserved it.
[quote]What is true is you are an admitted Saudiaphope/racist …[/quote]
This is a clumsy lie. I certainly have not made any confession to being a racist, as anyone who can read this thread can see. This is a transparently dishonest attempt to substitute a bogus racist motive for my legitimate strident opposition to the Saudi regime due to their murderously belligerent jihad against America and the world. I suspect you resort to these low tactics because the Saudi behavior is indefensible.
[quote]Didn’t the Bradley article say anything to you?[/quote]
Yes, it did. It is one piece of the mosaic. I wonder if it was a paid piece of PR by the Saudis but let’s say it was authentic.
At the same time, I read on page A7 of today’s Wall Street Journal the words of a Western military trainer of Saudi armed forces: “I don’t think I have much more time here. On the base where I work, I’m now getting looks that are brimming with hatred.”
When a British citizen was wounded in Saudi Arabia a few weeks ago, he had to lie to passers-by, telling him he was a Muslim, to convince them to help him. It was reported that it was common practice for Western reporters to carry a Koran with them to smooth their way with hostile locals, as this wounded reporter did.
Here in the States, if a deer is struck on the highway, passers by will stop, jump out of their cars, block traffic, call the police and animal control to help that poor deer. By contrast, a man lying in a pool of blood on a Saudi sidewalk must persuade Saudis that he is Muslim before they will lift a finger to help.
These recent accounts tend to refute Bradley’s account of a Saudi Arabia where everyone trusted Westerners and went out of their way to help them. How do you reconcile these accounts?
My negative opinion of the Saudis is also based in part on the experiences of about ten of my friends who have worked, lived, and/or fought in Saudi Arabia. All of them had a low opinion of the Saudis without exception.
Two of them were former AF Thunderbirds crew chiefs who worked as crew chiefs for the Saudi air force, one of them for Prince Bandar. They enjoyed the money but said that the Saudis treated them like “white slaves.” They had many stories of Saudis treating foreigners badly.
Two others were F-117 pilots who rotated into Saudi Arabia at Khamis Mushait regularly after the first Gulf War. One of them had been an FB-111 pilot in the war. They were profoundly struck by the Saudis indifference, ingratitude, and arrogance. They did not like working with them.
Another was a software salesman in Saudi Arabia. He told me that Saudis would tap on your shoulder if you were standing in line and step in front of you. They were Saudis who would not stand behind Western infidels. It would happen over and over so that you could not make progress in the line. He told me that he was on a Saudia flight to London, got off, was standing at the baggage slide in the airport, when a Saudi tapped him on the shoulder to step ahead of him. He knocked the arrogant Saudi down on the floor.
This theme of arrogance and ignorance seems to be a theme among other accounts of Western travellers in Saudi Arabia in the last century as well.
So all this has laid a rather negative foundation for my opinion of the Saudis on a personal level.
[quote]If you would at least seperate your feelings and comments from regular everyday Saudis to those who do want to cause harm you would have a much greater effect. Heck why not hate all from Bahrain as well. They have some nutters in GITMO. Does that mean every Bahraini wants to kill Americans? Same with Kuwait and all the GCC and Arab nations. Damn Steve even the Aussies have a couple as well.[/quote]
The rather obvious difference between Saudi Arabia and the civilized countries is that they have not launched an attack on the US that killed three thousand people and threaten to do it again. The government of Bahrain, for example, has not funded terror organizations that kill Americans. Australia does not maintain a state religion that calls upon its followers to kill Americans.
I’m not persuaded that ordinary Saudis find the killings of Westerners to be repellent, as you claim. As I mentioned earlier, the Saudi blogger for Religious Policeman claims that the terrorist killings of Westerners were celebrated with fists punched in the air and high fives in his office. You have not presented any evidence that Saudis object to infidels being killed in their kingdom. I don’t see any remorse expressed by ordinary Saudis anywhere. If you can provide a link that demonstrates otherwise, please place it in your reply.
[quote]Leave no doubt. The Saudis have some serious problem ….[/quote]
That’s quite an understatement isn’t it?
[quote]If I was a young Saudi or Arab forming my thoughts and I ran accross your rants it sure in the hell would turn me off towards Americans and the West. Your not being part of the solution.[/quote]
This is hardly persuasive. You’re basically saying that we should not object too strongly to the Saudis mass-murdering Americans or they won’t like us.
My solution is to actively confront the Saudis, demonstrate that their violence toward us will reap violence toward them in greater measure. And your solution is what, exactly?
[quote]Better I feel to work toward a logical end than subscribe to the “Kill em all and let God Sort them out” way you put forth. Steve that is not a religious chant. It is a line taken from a Steven King movie that seems to fit well in this context.[/quote]
Once again, I have said nothing of the sort. I would have more respect for you if you did not invent quotes and attribute them falsely to me.
The quote, “Kill em all and let God Sort them out,” was not written by Steven King as you absurdly claim but rather spoken by the Inquisitor monk Dominic Guzman, who zealously prosecuted the Third Crusade against Raymond VI, the Count of Toulouse, in southern France in 1216. When he entered a town known to hold heretical Cathars he ordered his crew of crusaders to kill everyone. When his people pointed out that true Catholics also lived in town, he famously told them to kill them all and let God sort them out. So yes, it is a religious quote, whether you know it or not.
There is an entire world history that preceded Steven King movies, kid. Steven King did not write “kill ’em all and let God sort them out” and neither did I.
Steve
Re(4): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
James
As’ad is well within his rights as a US Citizen to voice his thoughts, ideas and hatred if that is what the case is, or may be. So if you believe he hates your country in effect he also hates HIS country as well. You don’t have to agree with him. I have not seen anything from him that is subvertive towards the US. However he has the right and the freedom to express his point of view. Something we as Americans often take for granted and a sad fact many in the world do not have.
steve .. you didnt answer my question
oil wealth cannot be the only factor explaining why an average moderate saudi becomes a wahabbi zealot. dont forget – wahabbis have been around for a while – they didnt need to control the school system to ìndoctrinate` people. they have been around for a while … even pre saudi arabia ..
also – you dont factor into your thought process the whole afghan saudis …
as for being a submissive docile arab female .. i was until i was corrupted by western education. the americans taught me how to think. the brits taught me how to think intelligently… 😉
happy 4th of july ..
jasra jedi
Re: steve .. you didnt answer my question
Hmmm. I must have been too busy admiring the sound of my own voice in my first post to answer your question. Let me try again.
It’s true that the Wahhabis have been around for a long time, at least a couple centuries. They have been consistently extremist over that time. The only thing constraining them from acting on that extremism is lack of resources. They tend to promote their religion to the limit of their ability.
The oil wealth of the Saudis gave the Wahhabis a lot more assets to promote their faith. Previous to WWII, there certainly wasn’t the wealth to establish universities churning out so many Islamic studies majors and give them makework jobs in freshly-built mosques. The wealth also allowed them to create more channels of communication to their people and dominate them, reserving them for religious propaganda. If you are immersed in this hateful script everywhere you go, you will adopt it.
I think the oil wealth also exacerbated the Saudi sense of exceptionalism, their idea that they were superior. Why else would Allah reward them with such riches? Obviously, in their mind, it was a blessing for their piety.
There is also the self-imposed isolation of the Saudis. Extremism finds more fertile ground in closed societies than open societies.
Sending their radical sons off to Afghanistan might have only delayed the current civil war. The Saudis have a lot of idle young men with heads full of hate. The Soviet invasion may have seemed like a blessing in disguise domestically for them. They could send all their troublemakers abroad to fight their jihad against the Soviet atheists rather than direct their rage against the House of Saud at home.
Maybe the precipitating cause now is the sliding standard of living. One fourth of their working population is unemployed, with dim prospects of a better life. That can’t possibly make anyone happy.
There is also the reaction of the Saudis to the Western world. With more wealth came more contacts with the West. There is a curious rejection of the West by many Saudis (and Muslim Arabs), whose psychological mechanism I don’t understand well. For some reason, contact with and especially life in the West seems to drive them deeper into their native identity. I wonder if they when they enter the West they find themselves ill-equipped culturally and socially to succeed, and bury themselves in their culture as a way to save face. You could probably explain that to me better than I could dissect it from the outside.
You might want to reconsider taking your cues in intelligent thinking from the Brits. I don’t see a lot of cutting edge thought coming out of the British Isles. They think Benny Hill is funny. I mean, really, have you watched their science fiction? They don’t get the Future at all. You need to tune in to America to see what the Future holds.
My earnest recommendation is that you forget all that feminism you learned in the US. It hasn’t worked out that well for us. Now all our women are out trying to become nuclear scientists and law partners and CEOs while their children run around in rags on the streets like wild animals, baying at the moon. Look at what a mess our homes have become without women to tend them. We need our women to be home catering to us men, greeting us at the end of a long day in corporate America with a cold drink and a warm smile, rubbing our tired shoulders, cooking us a nutritious dinner. We already have enough men competing with us. We don’t need female competition, too. We need tender loving care at home. We are really in quite desperate straits.
Steve
Re(1): steve .. you didnt answer my question
Steve ..
Nice explanation re the Saudi mindset. u manage to leave out US foreign policy completely as a factor though… tsk tsk.
Re American feminism .. u r more than welcome to come to Bahrain and try and charm our local women into a ´submissive´marriage .. u´d have to convert to Islam though … 😉
JJ
Re(2): steve .. you didnt answer my question
What US foreign policy topics are on your mind other than Israel?
It seems to me that as far as Saudi Arabia is concerned we have been angels. We did not take over their country when US geologists found oil there like the European colonialists would. We respected their sovereignty. We allowed US companies to do all the work of harvesting the oil while paying off the Saudis for basically watching us do it. When the Saudis wanted to nationalize the oil industry, we made no objection like the French did at the Suez Canal. We accomodated their desire. We refrained from exposing the despicable nature of their society and painted it instead in rosy National Geographic colors. We helped them to become stupendously wealthy. When they were threatened by Saddam, we defended them.
And despite all that, Saudi Arabia hates us the most of any Arab country because we are not Wahhabi.
If anything, Saudi Arabia demonstrates the folly of treating Arab countries fairly. No matter what we do, good or bad, the Arabs will hate us. Consequently, we should still stick to our principles but look out for our own interests first. We should also minimize our dealings with the Middle East and maximize them elsewhere where there are rational people with whom we can do business without this cultural thunderstorm of religious hate that hovers over every relationship. India, for example. You can do business with the Indian without them flying suicide jets into your buildings. You can invite Indians into your homes without fearing they will kill you.
Jasra, I don’t want to force the women to tend the hearth and home and neighborhood. I want them to want to do it with a happy heart. And I’d like their husbands to respect them more for doing it.
I don’t know about converting to Islam. The nuns had seven years of parochial school to pound Catholicism into me and it hasn’t quite taken hold. I must admit that a quick prayer to Mecca five times a day puts a lighter religious load on your shoulders than an hour of chapel every morning, like the nuns made us do. I used to be a navigator so I probably would be good at finding the direction to Mecca. But I think that I would probably start dragging my feet on my religious duties pretty quick, skipping prayers to watch The Simpsons and dodging the mosque to write on the Internet. I’d probably be a lousier Muslim than I am a lousy Catholic.
Steve
Re(3): steve .. you didnt answer my question
errrrm …
1 trillion usd? was that the amount that the saudis have invested into the us? i cant remember what percentage that was of gdp .. but .. if my memory serves me .. it aint an insignificant number. so .. yes, u állowed´the saudis to do as they pleased with their oil as long as they directed a good percentage of that flow into the economy of the US .. eh? and i will bet u a couple of million that that figure doesnt include defense spending…
hugs and kisses .. jasra jedi.
(btw – i hear u about the difficulties of being a good moslem vs a good catholic vs a good anything these days … i wonder what would have happened if the US as a superpower was not a religious country .. i wonder whether they would have shifted the way the cards are going to fall over the next decade or so …)
Re(4): steve .. you didnt answer my question
Jasra, every foreign country invests its money in the US because its generally safer and more productive than in their own country. After all, what Saudi stocks would the Saudis invest in? The property laws in most of the Third World are too fuzzy to safeguard foreign investment while they are quite well defined and enforced here in the States.
Also, Moore confuses his economic terms. Let’s accept that Moore is telling the truth when he says the Saudis have invested almost $900 billion in the US. He’s probably cooking this figure somehow but let’s say he’s not.
The US GDP is about $11 trillion. Comparing the GDP with Saudi investment is meaningless. They are apples and oranges. The GDP is an income. The Saudi money is an investment. The Saudi investment is not part of the US GDP. The money it earns may be part of the GDP but the capital is not. It’s like saying that if you own a $100,000 house and earn a $50,000 salary that you earn $150,000 every year. Not so. The investment in your home is not an income.
Basically, Moore is claiming that Saudi investment is actually income that is occurring every year just like GDP. He confuses investment and GDP, probably because he doesn’t know the difference, to overstate Saudi influence in the US economy so as to support his propaganda theme.
Steve
The GDP is basically what the nation earned on its assets, which are much larger by probably a couple orders of magnitude. The Saudis own only a tiny percentage of total US assets.
economics 101
Steve ..
I get the difference between GDP and Investment. I think Moore probably gets it too .. except that he was just using GDP % to show how big or small Saudi investment was … but … i digress …
You make some good points .. I just want to highlight something on US foreign policy .. its not what the US does that drives people nuts .. its the fact that the US hides behind double standards consistently that brings out the anger in people.
Israel is here to stay, and I dont care what anyone else says. Israel also is one of the US´most important ally in the region – and I am fine with that too. What I dont understand is why the US bothers to justify its behavior behind a mask of self righteousness that is inflammatory and so obviously biased! It would have been less of an insult to the world if the US didnt try to treat everyone like fools.
WMD in Iraq? What about nuclear weapons in Israel? WHy didnt Bush just play the political game and wait a few months before bombing Iraq by trying to get the UN and the world community imvolved? They would certainly have a lot less anger and hatred and significantly more sympathy than they do now in the global community … why cant Bush put the clamps down on the settlements? Why is it easy for the US to blame Palestinian suicide bombing on Arafat but they dont hold Ari Sharon accountable for his nutty settlers? I could go on …
Its not what the US is doing .. its all about how it is doing it…. and what price it is willing to pay ..
JJ
Re: economics 101
Jasra,
I’m not so confident that Moore gets it. He doesn’t display much education nor reasoning skills. He makes his arguments entirely with fallacious reasoning, ie rhetoric rather than reason.
Moore’s Saudi investment vs US GDP argument is an example of that deceptive rhetoric. Now if you compared the Saudi investment in the US to the value of all US assets, that would be a fair and meaningful statistic. However, it would be a very tiny number. If you measured the return on the Saudi investment and compared it to US GDP, that, too would be a meaningful statistic, but small again. Both would undermine Moore’s propaganda theme that the Saudis own/control the US.
I suppose many European countries and such pursue their foreign policy more pragmatically with a squinty-eyed cynical measure of costs and benefits. That doesn’t play well with US citizens who expect their foreign policy to pursue some morally good end. That moralistic tone to the foreign policy that plays well internally does not always play well internationally.
The obvious difference between Iraq’s WMDs and Israels nukes is that Israel is not threatening to nuke anyone. They perform their function of deterrence just by existing. Iraq felt no moral constraint in using their WMDs offensively against anyone, the Iranians and even their own people. That’s why a kitchen knife in your hands is no threat to your family while the same knife in the hands of a madman is a grave threat.
The crazy Israeli settlers are not well-covered in the media here, although you see them in full-blown looniness on TV once in a great while, in the papers a little, and occassionally in magazine articles. I agree that they are not an attractive side of Israel.
Steve
Re(3): Who is M?
“Crockumentary” was the best description I heard of this new genre.
Steve
Re: The Battle for Saudi Arabia
So Mahmood, did you have time to read that book on your holiday, is it worth reading ??
WALEG
[url]http://www.waleg.com[/url]
The Battle for Saudi Arabia
i hate you
Re(5): The Battle for Saudi Arabia
lol, it was used before dominic guzman. Maybe you should open up one of those dust-covered history books.