Bahrain’s top Shi’i leaders said yesterday that they would march to Najaf and protect it if Iraq’s highest Shi’i leader, Ayatollah Ali Al-Sistani, called upon Muslims to join efforts to end the fighting and bring peace back to the city.
Sheikh Ali Salman, an opposition leader and spokesman for the organizers, said Shi’i leaders were prepared to march in a peaceful protest to Najaf to end the bloodbath that continued for more than three weeks if Ayatollah Al-Sistani called upon them to join him. “What is taking place in the holy city and Iraq in general is a provocation to the Muslims’ feelings around the world,â€? he said.
Is this guy a Bahraini, Iraqi, or what? Where does his loyalties lie? What business is it of his to interfere in another country? So if the revered Al-Sistani suddenly orders the Shi’a to topple their governments will this guy lead the “Jihad” and try to topple ours?
While I realise and accept that the holy Shi’a or any other Muslim religious site is sacrosanct and belongs to all Muslims, this guy is taking it too far.
This demonstrates WHY the ruling families in this area cannot trust the Shi’as, this situation and this guy demonstrate that his – and probably most of his followers’ – loyalty lie somewhere else. Under the guise of protecting sacred sites of course.
Comments
Ali Salman on the march…
what exactly was in your mind !!
Ali Salman on the march…
Mahmood said:
It’s amazing how Nationalism and the State are so good at imposing themselves on everyone. In your statement that I’ve quoted above you seem to assume that an individual must belong to a State, and his loyalties must lie only with that particular state. Why is it so far beyond us to come to terms with people who choose not to view the colour of their passport as their primary identity? I’m not condemning or condoning Ali Salman’s actions. I’m just wondering about what is so wrong with being loyal to an ideology other than nationalism. Expect a post about this topic on my blog soon.
Oh, and welcome back Mahmood 🙂
Chan’ad
P.S. I understand that Ali Salman claims also to have utmost loyalty to Bahrain, so you could accuse him of being a hypocrite… but let’s ignore that for a second 🙂
Ali Salman on the march…
What I find hard to understand is how these so-called spiritual leaders are constantly railing against nations, statehood and resulting governments, when all they want to do is replace one system of government with another — THEIRS!
It’s all merely a power grab in which our mullahs — whose motives we aren’t supposed to question — play on the sheep-like qualities of many of our brothers and sisters. It’s right up there along with telling us we don’t know how to read and understand Quran without having the self-appointed scholars interpret it for us through the application of various & sundry ahadith… 🙁
Am I ranting yet??? 😉
Why can’t we all just work on living in peace in our respective communities… rather than try to add to the problems elsewhere?
Salaam Alaikum,
PM
Ali Salman on the march…
Ali Salman in Bahrain backing a secular Shia idology in Iraq. George Bush in the States backing a fundamentalist Christinan Right Wing ideology in Israel and the Middle East.
And the difference is …. what exactly?
JJ
Ali Salman on the march…
I’d rather Ali Salman spent his time protesting about what’s going on in Iraq than on his campaign for vice and virtue gangs back home.
Distract the guy – it’ll give us time to think the little fanatic out.
Ali Salman on the march…
[quote]This demonstrates WHY the ruling families in this area cannot trust the Shi’as, this situation and this guy demonstrate that his – and probably most of his followers’ – loyalty lie somewhere else. [/quote]
I really dont see how one’s patriotic loyalty to a country is correlated with ones willingness to protect the sanctity of thier holy places. Further, i’d go on to propose a pecking-order of loyalties for most Bahrainis:
1. Muslim
2. Shia
3. Bahraini
4. Arab
Bahraini loyalty comes third in the list. So if Mecca was being attacked, are Muslims not obliged to answer the call to jihad? If Imam Ali’s holy site is being attacked, are Shia’s not obliged to answer the call to protect it? The first two identities in the list transcend geographical boundaries and are superior to nationalistic allegiences, they aint nothin to do with ‘medling’ with other country’s political affairs -we’ll leave that for America.
So to hell Mr Mahmood for your ridiculousy stupid attempt at questioning the loyalty to my country, in answering a call to defend a 1400 year old holy shrine being torn to bits. You may not give a shit, and your pecking order maybe completely different, but for majority of Bahraini’s who devout Muslim Shia, this DOESNT give the government a right to distrust us. What an utterly foolish thing to say.
[color=darkred][/color]
Whatever happened to the idea that…
in Islam we are not supposed to create SHRINES??? This so-called shrine in Najaf is a far cry different from protecting Al-Kaaba or even the first mosque at Medina.
Isn’t elevating this mosque to this level of a “shrine” a form of shirk? Frankly, I have never understood this (mostly) shi’a practice of declaring sites holy… What is THAT about?
Salaam Alaikum,
PM
Re: Ali Salman on the march…
I don’t echo the previous poster’s harsh words towards you, but I do agree with him/her that for many Bahrainis, their ranking of identities is likely to be the one he/she has listed. I haven’t done any polling myself, but from my discussions with Bahrainis it does not seem like an implausible statement. But even if the ordering isn’t exactly the one listed, their Shia’ identity (for the Shias only, of course) will rank high enough for it to matter. My point is that despite the apparent hypocrisy in Ali Salman’s words I must concede that what he is saying is not entirely out of sync with the feelings of his followers, who constitute a significant size of the Bahraini population.
As I asked before, what is so inherently wrong with believing in an ideology other than nationalism? For example, if a group of bloggers in the United States is in critical trouble and they ask for all bloggers to help out, I might be inclined to support their cause. Why? Because I also am a blogger and I feel an emotional connection with bloggers on the other side of the planet whom I have never met, because of our common experiences. Is that so wrong? At the end of the day, blind loyalty to a State is just as irrational as blind loyalty a religion. I mean, can you really blame someone if he or she did not grow up being brainwashed by State propaganda to love your wa6an?
Re: Whatever happened to the idea that…
I don’t understand this, and perhaps I never will. But in Islam, why do you pray toward the Kaaba? It was once, before Mohammed struck the idols from it, and placed the stone, a place of pagan worship. Christians don’t pray toward Rome, and Jews do not pray toward Jerusalem. It seems on its very basic level a form of idol worship that instead of praying toward ‘Allah’ the great and omnipresent God (supposedly) That Muslims pray toward the Kaaba, which is not omnipresent, and is not much more than a minaretted pagan house for a fancy meteorite.
Is Allah nothing more than a stone? The Koran goes on and on about how he is all powerful – but Muslims direct their worship toward him as if he was not all-powerful, but cooped up in one place, Mecca. From what I glean of the Koran, it sems that the Kaaba and other such holy sites have a very strong double standard. You can’t consider a shrine or person holy because of shirk, but this one shrine is of ultimate holiness. It’s the same reasoning as ‘Mohammed is the last prophet because the Koran says so. And the Koran was dictated to Mohammed, and written down a hundred years later by Uthmar, so it’s true.’
Re: Ali Salman on the march…
Jasra,
That might play well to the Islamists, but it’s hardly true, is it? Bush and the US are not exporting Christianity to the world. We are exporting democracy.
If we were exporting Christianity, we would be replacing the mosques with churches. Yet, we don’t. We certainly would not hold our fire on the Shia shrine in Najaf, now would we? Yet the Imam Ali mosque remains standing, untouched by American fire, as a rebuttal to your false contention.
Steve
Ali Salman on the march…
I’m not sure the alternatives are ideology or nationalism as Chan’ad seems to think. I think you’ll find in history that both are recipes for disaster. There is another way. Democracy is less an ideology than simply a prescription for determining direction by the largest number of participating people possible.
Both ideology and nationalism are unbounded. Without limits. Democracy is a process which places limits on both.
Re(1): Ali Salman on the march…
Agreed. Its better to act on moral principle than on the basis of national identity.
Re: Ali Salman on the march…
The crux of the problem is that this situation demonstrates plainly their zero political acumen on one hand, and that before considering their national duty to raise the level of everything Bahrain, they answer to an authority – though revered and respected – outside of the Bahrain domain. This pronouncement has come in his Friday sermon, the very one he also took pains to denigrate the authorities and the Ministry of Power and Water for the recent blackout. The two positions are diametrically opposite and irreconcilable; one demonstrates that he will answer the call (any call) of a foreign power thus demonstrating the absence of loyalty to his own country, the other is demanding change in this country.
Remember that he is the leader of the main opposition party Al-Wefaq, and he is also an Imam, thus again this situation demonstrates that in his own mind, Salman cannot distinguish between political and religious positions. That’s just as scary to me as well as his non-patriotism.
Unlike you, I do not condone his actions and I do condemn him for his choices.
Re: Ali Salman on the march…
absolutely correct PM and wholly agree. One way out of the downward spiral is a concerted effort at education and raising the level of living of these “sheep,” maybe then they will ask the right questions and not just take what the mullahs and imams say as sacrosanct and irrefutable.
Re: Ali Salman on the march…
trawling again are we JJ! 😉
Re: Ali Salman on the march…
“One way out of the downward spiral is a concerted effort at education and raising the level of living of these “sheep,” maybe then they will ask the right questions and not just take what the mullahs and imams say as sacrosanct and irrefutable.”
A major aim of education is to encourage students to ask questions and think for themselves, and not just believe everything the teachers tell them. That applies to all subjects, not just to religious topics.
Re(1): Ali Salman on the march…
mahmood ..
nah. i was just trying to make a point because i actually agree wholeheartedly in principle with both you and PM. I was just trying to point out that the strategy that Bush adopted was disastrous to all involved. And that Ali Salman’s approach might also be harmful to the good of the Shia in Bahrain. It might be great for him and his own power base as the ‘protector of the street
Re(1): Ali Salman on the march…
Steve Steve Steve …
I never claimed that Ali Salman is exporting Shiaism. Nor did I claim that W is exporting a far right interpretation of Christianity. I am merely pointing out the fact that both ‘leaders’ are as guilty of each other in using religion to take positions on wars that are much more about power than about a relationship with God.
And both men, are going to end up doing more damage for their own people than they realize. Bush and Ali Salman are both presenting things in black and white. They both subscribe to the policy that ‘if u aint with us you are against us’. and they are both using foriegn policy to bolster their positions at home.
Sweetheart .. if you are going to have any credibility discussing how the battle of the soul for the Shia leadership in Najaf is going to influence all of our lives .. then I suggest that you apply for a passport, apply for a visa, get on a plane, land in Bahain where immigration will not treat you as a terrorist, and come and see (and more importantly, learn) for yourself …
Jasra Jedi
Re(2): Ali Salman on the march…
Jasra,
We are sweethearts now, are we? We certainly bicker enough to be married.
I disagree that Bush and Ali Salman are invoking religion equivalently. Salman is quite clearly making his argument on entirely religious grounds. Bush’s invocation of religion is is more an afterthought, a minor contributing reason for a course of action. For Bush, religion is the icing on the cake. For Ai Salman, religion is the cake and icing. And the plate and forks and table and chairs.
You are fuzzing the difference between the two men as well. Ali Salman is trying to agitate for a religious conflict where there is none. We have no intention of taking over Muslim shrines or mosques or converting Muslims to Christianity or stoping Muslims from practicing their religion. If Kooky Mullah Mookie was not firing mortars out of the mosque in Najaf, there would be no Americans fighting them there.
Bush, by contrast, has a real war on his hands. There really were Arab Muslim maniacs who butchered nearly 3000 Americans on Sept 11 with a threat to do more evil. There may be issues where the parties involved can legitimately see the solution in shades of gray. Dead American civilians is not one of them.
If you kill Americans by the thousands in our homeland, it is a black and white issue. The psycho killers who did this must be annihilated. Those who helped them or hide them must be annihilated. There is simply no moral defense for those who support this attack on America. None.
If you deny your involvement with the Al Qaeda trash or hamper our investigation, you truly are an enemy of the United states, like the Saudis. There is no middle ground here. Any support for the mass murder of innocent Americans is unacceptable.
Jasra, I admit that I would know more if I travelled to your part of the world but I disagree that I don’t know enough to have a credible opinion.
The reason that Bahraini immigration officers need not treat me as a terrorist is that Americans do not skyjack Bahraini jets and fly them into Bahrainis having their morning tea in their offices. We don’t go to foreign countries to study where we can plant a bomb to kill the most civilians. We don’t strap on suicide belts and detonate ourselves in Arab coffeeshops or shopping malls.
Just this week, the police caught a Pakistani and an American man of Arab descent planning to blow up a subway station in New York City. Where in the Arab world have Americans been caught trying to plant a bomb in a railway station to kill innocent Arabs?
I can guarantee you that should I ever be so fortunate as to accept your kind invitation to Bahrain and partake of the tasty sharwamas therein, there is no chance that I will detonate myself in your presence. I would be embarassed if I so much as broke a water glass in your home.
Such is not the case for Arab men who take advantage of our hospitality in America. They roam freely here without restraint, take advantage of the many opportunities to earn pay and raise money, study in our universities, worship freely in mosques they establish anywhere without interference, and then make plans to kill Americans en masse, their hosts and benefactors. That is why Arabs face intense scrutiny when they come to America while foreign countries subject Americans only to lax scrutiny. The only thing we will leave behind in unprotected shopping malls in the foreign countries we visit are American dollars.
Steve
Re(1): Whatever happened to the idea that…
Certainly, upon first glance it seems that Muslims are the biggest idol-worshippers of them all. If you’re ever been to the Ka’aba for Hajj or Umrah you will have seen all of the Muslims jostling and elbowing each other to be able to touch a small black stone. If that isn’t idol worship, then I don’t know what is.
But there is a very important verse in the Quran dealing with this subject. The story goes that when Muhammad first started preaching Islam there were many among the Jews who were sympathetic to it because they shared many similarities. Among which is that at the time Muslims used to pray towards Jerusalem, and *apparently* the Jews of the time also used to face that city. But when God instructed Muhammad to start praying towards Mecca, many of the Jews began looking down on Islam and saying something like: “Ha ha ha! What a stupid religion you have in which you pray towards Mecca and not Jerusalem!” It was then that God revealed to Muhammad what is sometimes called the Verse of Righteousness (2:177):
And Muhammad related this verse to those Jews who were being critical. The idea behind the verse (as I understand it) is that ritual acts like prayer, and having a beard, and Hajj are not what makes people righteous. The “people of truth” are those who believe in God, and who help their fellow mankind. And those who truly believe in God and love him will carry out the rituals merely because it has been commanded, but they are aware that those acts do not carry any inherent value of themselves. Had God commanded the believer to pray towards the Vatican instead of Mecca, the believer would do so without worrying much, because he or she recognizes that facing either of these places is not an act of righteousness in itself.
A famous Punjabi sufi poet also said something to the same effect:
Again, this doesn’t mean you shouldn’t perform Hajj. It’s just that the physical rituals alone do not, of themselves, contain the true Spirit of the Hajj.
Anyways, interesting dicussion, but it probably does not belong in this thread. Maybe we can continue this somewhere else. Fun fun fun.
Chan’ad
Re: Ali Salman on the march…
[quote]So if Mecca was being attacked, are Muslims not obliged to answer the call to jihad?[/quote]
The Muslims didn’t seem obliged to defend the Great Mosque of Mecca when it was attacked in 1979. The Saudis outsourced the job to French troops.
[quote]If Imam Ali’s holy site is being attacked, are Shia’s not obliged to answer the call to protect it? [/quote]
The Shrine is not being attacked. Kooky Mookie’s ploy to agitate gullible Shia dopes is to attack Americans from the mosque and distort any return fire against his gangsters as an attack on the mosque. You seem to be buying it.
[quote]…in answering a call to defend a 1400 year old holy shrine being torn to bits. [/quote]
The Shrine is not being “torn to shreds” or anything like it. You need to get your news from a reliable source rather than your local radical imam.
Here is the blog of a journalist who just visited the shrine under fire and here is the a photo of the only damage he found.
Here is a current photo showing Mahdi Army gangsters posing in front of an undamaged Imam Ali shrine.
Here are Iraqi police moving take over the undamaged Imam Ali Shrine.
Here is a picture of the courtyard of the undamaged Imam Ali Shrine Friday, two days ago.
Why is it that I can check the truth of these false claims in a few clicks of the computer and you can not?
Steve
Ali Salman on the march…
[its hard driving barefoot, so I have to wear shoes in the car unfortunately then I found out my nail varnish keeps chipping so I decided to invest in a pair of Jimmy Choos instead of camal-leather flip flops.]
LOL! Well, Jimmy Choos and nail varnish?!? Aren’t you afraid that will nullify your prayer, sis — as I have been told toooooo many times to count? 😉 😉 😉
Salaam Alaikum,
PM
Ali Salman on the march…
The whole point might be moot. If dear dear bahrainia keeps supporting these bearded asswipes she will never have to worry about driving barefoot, listening to music or wearing nail varnish.. She won’t be doing any of these things.. Please take LOTS of pictures of you doing all the things you take for granted now. Then again some of them will want to ban pictures as well.
Re(2): Ali Salman on the march…
[quote]then I suggest that you apply for a passport, apply for a visa, get on a plane, land in Bahain where immigration will not treat you as a terrorist, and come and see (and more importantly, learn) for yourself … [/quote]
Steve in Bahrain? I would PAY good MONEY to see that!
Re: Ali Salman on the march…
Mate, i’ll send you a photo of me giving Sheikh Ali Salman and Mushimi3 a lift in Bahrain, if you just get it out of your head, that not all clerics want an Islamic state, and that actually the Shia clerics are VERY pro-woman, open-minded and extremely politically educated and aware. Dont put the Whabis/salafis in the same basket. Other than Sh. Isa Qassim, the clerics are very accessible and down-to-earth.
Meanwhile, I have pedicure appointment to catch. Walking around barefoot the whole day really isnt good for the skin.
Re(1): Ali Salman on the march…
what was that again? something about Ali Salman fully supporting the promotion of virtue and prevention of vice, aka religious police? And he doesn’t want an islamic state?
Re(1): Ali Salman on the march…
You sound like you have a nice life. So why do you support idiots who want to take it all away from you?
Re(2): Ali Salman on the march…
no i think ur imagination is running wild again..tut tut tut… the alzheimers has kicked in again as there isnt a single report or article or statement linking Ali Salman to this religious policemen farce. Again I have to point out that this was Alsaeedi and co. which are a different bunch all together. Only the MPs would care to discuss and are impassioned by such trivialities as the prevention of vice.
Re(2): Ali Salman on the march…
I have a great life thanks for pointing that out to me. The best part of it is campaigning with my fellow Bahraini citizens about our political and economic destiny whether in the black era of the nineties, or under the umbrella of the political societies today. Seeing the four big societies Ali Salman’s and Nuaimi’s form a semi-coalition, putting their religious differences aside, [b]calling for an end to the deception and lies by the government, calling for the return of the 1973 constitution, calling for an end to discrimination, calling for an end to political naturalization. [/b]Thats the best part of my life, other than the infrequent trips to St Tropez, great parents and having Harvey Nichols down the road.
As for the idiots you are referring to, they’re not actually too bothered whether I wear pink or red nail varnish as long as we end the political and financial corruption in this country, and have some share in the sovereignty of this small island.
(Mahmood sorry for not signing in, the password is way too complicated for me to remember)
bahrainia
lost password…
I’ll generate another one for you and email it to your registered email address. Once you receive it, please sign in using the sent password, then click on the “my account” link at the top of the page and change it to your choice of password.
Re(3): Ali Salman on the march…
actually there was. an article in Al-Wasat in an interview with him, let me see if I can find it, though it happened when I was enjoying Canada at the time!
Re(2): Ali Salman on the march…
Mahmood, I’m aware that you are a proud Shia’. And I understand that you view yourself as being Bahraini above most other identities. I wasn’t trying make any statements about your views as an individual. Rather, my assessment was merely that there are probably many Bahrainis who might not feel the same way as you do. I would imagine that there were many Bahrainis who agreed with Ali Salman when he spoke about marching on Najaf. To those people (not you), heeding to the calls of Ayatollah Sistani is more important than many other things in their lives. Regardless of the moral assessment we make of Ali Salman’s statement, I was just pointing out that many Bahrainis (not all) were probably nodding their heads in agreement when they read his statement.
On to more juicy stuff about nationalism (which is more general, and not specific Ali Salman, etc). You said:
Well that’s your opinion of Bahrain. But what if someone doesn’t agree with you? But what if someone does not want pigeonhole himself into these discrete categories of Bahraini, Qatari, Afghani, whatever? What if we don’t want to discretize our community and our identity in such a manner? Can’t we just belong to the community of Arabs, or the community of Middle Easterners, or the community of Humans? What is sooo specials about the place we were born, or the colour of our passport, that we fethat we must give allegiance to it, and that we should insist on others adhering to this view also?
Long, but interesting debate. I’ve tried to touch on some of these issues in my latest post on my blog. Cheers.
Ali Salman on the march…
For what it’s worth, here are some of my thoughts towards this discussion.
We seem to all be agreeing violently on the same thing. Those that participate in this log want the same thing, sanity in the Middle East. And that’s the thrust of most discussions here.
Most of us want a situation where no one has to defend his or her choices as long as they do not infringe on the rights of other. In reactionary societies where ignorance and assumptions rule the day (whether it be the heart of Al Najd or the heart of Texas) religion is the Trojan horse under which more ignorance can be foisted on the people. Religion, civility and progress need not be mutually exclusive.
I don’t believe that by calling these cartoon characters out, Mahmood is anti-Islamic. Indeed, neither is Bahrainia a salafist for disagreeing with him, or making a cogent argument to point out a seeming inconsistency. I applaud her for her frankness, and I applaud Mahmood for addressing the matter with civility. I make no assumptions about either of them for any of the views they proclaim.
One of the “quirks” that we never seem to quite get rid of is the absolute faith we have in conspiracies. No one has a geniune opinion, they are just espousing someone else’s agenda. Whenever an opinion is offered that is not lockstep with our own, then it is because he who offered it has conspired with the other sect, with secularists, with “foreign elements”, with the Great Satan, or when all else fails, with Zionist agents. We are constantly looking for ways to discredit one another, without realizing that we discredit ourselves.
Remember that Juhayman Al Utaiby for the most part demanded that the Al Saud would walk what they talked and that the Ulayma would hold them accountable. Mecca was not attacked by “infidels”, it was used as a venue to express dissent. Now I’m just curious, but is it not his right for a muslim to speak his conscience in the congregation? And is not his voice regarded as having neither superiority nor inferiority to the voice of other muslims, and hence must be considered valid?
The French were brought in to “liberate” the Grand Mosque because the local security forces declined to fire upon Muslims. I hold the opinion that the Saudi forces recognized his right to speak, even if he had to resort to violence to claim that right. His crime really was that he brought undue attention to the failings of the Salafi state. What failings? Isn’t denial just a river in Egypt?
Ali Salman took full advantage of Mullah Mookie’s rising (and falling) star to get his fifteen minutes, and the best part is that he doesn’t have to pay the price. I can only hope that the young Shia who perhaps had the misfortune of scheduling his job interview for this past Saturday, will somehow make up for this strike against him with his talent and dedication to his skill.
Majeed Al-Alawi is obviously in scramble mode, because God forbid we upset Lord Protector of the realm and patron of his ministerial budget. It is precisely because of situations like this that Bahrainis have a vested interest in the matters of Saudi Arabia. Since they “set the tone” for life in Bahrain (or at least are shameless in their attempts to), we have reason to assure ourselves of that tone being acceptable to Bahrainis.
Again, public “servants” playing games with matters of public concern, while the public sits on the sidelines.
Outside of the interference of clowns like these, there is no doubt that every man holds in his heart the hope of dignity and prosperity for his family, community, fellow-believers, fellow-nationals and even neighbours.
Did anyone bother to ask Majeed Al-Alawi if it would be verboten to sign a petition for the release of the Al-Khalifa sop under detention in Guantanomo, or would that be “inteference in the affairs of other countries”?
Yours,
John
[Modified by: Bahraini Terp (johnc) on August 30, 2004 11:50 AM]
Al Wefaq and human rights
Bahrainia,
Kicking up a fuss about Ali Salman’s incitement over Najaf is missing the point; what’s scandalous about Al Wefaq, and what people should be out on the streets about, are the recent calls by the party’s leadership for:
a) racial segregation in Manama – moving the “immoral” Indians out to some new townships. Did Nelson Mandela spend all that time in Robben Island for nothing?
b) introduction in Bahrain of vice and virtue squads al a Iran
I find both these policies absolutely sickening. But as an Al Wefaq member go on square you’re professed support for human rights with the above policies. Or are you going to do the only decent thing and tear up your Al Wefaq membership card?
Re(4): Ali Salman on the march…
I’d be a bit cautious about being condescending towards Jassim Al Saeedi, Bahrainia, since Ali Salman’s seems intent on following the trail blazed by Desperate Dawg.
Ali Salman initially called for vice and virtue squads at Friday prayers at the beginning of August. Al Wefaq followed it up with a public meeting on how to proceed the next week.
Red nail varnish
Tut tut Bahrainia, any idea what your vice and virtue squads will do if they catch you wearing red nail varnish?
If you want to see how they work in Iran, I’d recommend the Bahraini Blogger’s excellent posts on the subject, whose first hand experience is frightening (http://bahrainiblog.blogspot.com)- best of all is Iran: the Mullah’s 1. A preview of coming attractions if your party get its way.
Re(1): Ali Salman on the march…
Love to see the photo! Love to see any photo’s of you. As long future ones don’t have you veiled, being barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen and being one of the “wives” of someone who won’t let you paint your toes or travel. Just be wary of the wolves no matter what skin they might be wearing.
Of red nails and bearded men ..
Hey Bahrainiya ..
A few points m’dear
1. It is unfair to say that Mahmood has an anti Islamist agenda. Mahmood has a stong opinion re separating Mosque (or shrine) from State. There is a difference between the two. And I think its high time that we learned how to deal with some of the issues brought up in this post without resorting to calling someone a ‘Kaffir’ or anti Islamic.
2. I am neither a believer in Desparate Dawg nor Ali Salman. However, the day either of these two self appointed esteemed and astute religious leaderhip decide to take on the issue of personal effects law for women is the day that I can judge whether they really do give a s**t about 50% of the population or whether they are just positioning politically.
3. Between red and pink nail polish, I would go for the red. Oh, and dont ever cut your cuticles. It is a real b***h maintaining them.
JJ
Re(3): Ali Salman on the march…
And, pray tell, how exactly do you expect to have a share in the sovereignity if you (and your wonderful coalition of Al Nuaimi and Ali Salman) decide that you wish to remain out of the current system?!
Political Lesson number 1.
If you want to control the game, you have to first take your seat at the table.
You might want to prepare on your future role with the youth society of Al Wifaq by reading up on how the Hitler Youth were organized during their day. You will learn that the difference between propaganda and truth is a subtle one …
Oh .. and one more thing. Do you think that they would have given a damn about currying favor with the women if we didnt have the right to vote? Its a game, my friend, and we are all pawns. Just make sure you really understand the stakes before you allow yourself to be positioned on the board. Else you may find yourself being used as fodder ..
JJ
Re: Al Wefaq and human rights
Sorry, I think its Mahmood that is kicking up the fuss over the Najaf issue, I dont think its a big deal at all, especially since i’ll get the chance to vote in the next Al-wefaq elections having a one-member one-vote policy, i’ll see if I wana vote for Ali Salman again, but so far he’s doing an OK job, though I feel that his tone vis-a-vis the government is way too reserved, but overall I feel he is playing the political game very well.
Get back to me with direct quotes from his sermons in context, then i’ll think about voting him out. As for ripping up my Al-wefaq membership card, I really dont see that happening soon, as long as its a democratic party and I voice my opinions directly with those in charge, im happy to go with the majority vote.
I really think its pathetic the way you make things up to aid you’re personal vendetta. Why is a nerdy white boy so interested in Bahraini politicas?? How much do they pay you in the Gulf Centre for Strategic Studies??
tsk tsk …
Thats a bit rude, don’t you think? Why are you getting personal? If you really have a point, then you should be able to fight for it on its own merits .. don’t resort to calling people names and operate as if anyone who disagrees with you is on someone’s payroll ..
if you want your passion for your country to be respected, then you might want to start by respecting others – whether they agree with you or not. And, the success of a democracy is not whether you can ‘voice your opinions to those in charge’ – but whether that democratic system can guarantee minority rights …
you have found your voice – and you are happy that al wifaq can echo it for you – now for god’s sake .. use your brain and learn how to use your voice wisely … by starting with some respect for other people’s positions ..
JJ
Re: Ali Salman on the march…
Ah, welcome back!
FACT: no one raised any voice when the French went in the Ka’aba in ’79, and I doubt very much that anybody would if it was attacked now. That doesn’t make it right of course, but it is a fact.
FACT: Al-Sistani’s road-trip to Najaf was to show Al-Sadr that he’s the man, look at all the people following me to come and free Najaf, of who though? You guessed it, Al-Sadr, NOT the Americans. So it was a political move on Al-Sistani’s side, very astute, but a political move nevertheless. THIS is what makes it in my mind “interference” by your friend Ali Salman in the internal situation of a foreign country, and nothing to do with Bahrain.
I agree however that religion and language transcend geography, but these two factors should not surmount anyone’s feeling of patriotism to the country of birth and national identity. There is a lot of commonality between Bahrain and Qatar, yet customs differ, even in as much as application of some Islamic laws, so the common denominator IS nationalism. Hence my priorities:
1. Country
2. Religious association within my country, then others. That’s the same for ideological thinking.
So as you say, Mr. Mahmood says again, I hereby question, without reservation where your Ali Salman and his ilk’s loyalty to this country and its people. Had he been a patriot, he wouldn’t have attempted to interfere in other country’s affairs. A simple dinunciation of “attrocities” of Al-Sadr and his thugs would have sufficed. His declared intention IF BIDDEN BY ANOTHER AUTHORITY to march to Najaf just doesn’t wash.
And yes, declarations like these from Ali Salman or any other “spiritual leader” in this country, regardless of sect, brings a lot of negative issues of trust on the part of the government.
Wake up and smell the hummos.
Re: Whatever happened to the idea that…
I don’t want to go into a theological discussion because I am not qualified to. To me shrines are necessary and visiting the dead is necessary as it strengthens tradition, customs and community connections. It also reminds you that you are not imortal and your day will come, so you better do some good in your life.
Re(1): Ali Salman on the march…
I’m a Shi’a and proud of it. I view Shi’ism as a valid, modern and changing interpretation of Islam. There are many many good points about it and I would be the last one to discuss them here because I am not qualified to.
I do rank my being a Muslim, a Shi’a (with a direct line to the Prophet (pbuh) I might add – me being the 53rd generation) quite highly, but I treat that as part of my Bahraini identity, I don’t play games by forcing a chronoligal order to excuse my patriotism. I just am. I am a Bahraini who happens to be a Muslim, like friends of mine who are Bahraini Christians and Bahraini Jews and Bahraini Hindus etc. Bahrain is the community that brings us together, that has nurtured us, that made us prosper.
So I disagree somewhat with your assessment Chan’ad. Belonging to a community is important, to me more important than your PERSONAL choice of religion.
Re(1): Al Wefaq and human rights
A typical Islamist response to critical discussion of their policies. Why can’t you acknowledge that people genuinely oppose Al Wefaq because theyre aware of their policies – which judging by your previous posts distinguishes them from you.
You’re going to have to start debating the issues and ease off on the self pity – opponents of Ali Salman aren’t either anti Islam or being paid to argue the toss with you. Save the slurs for Al Baharna.
Ali Salman on the march…
[quote]GDN MANAMA: National societies that send petitions to friendly countries asking them to release some of their detainees risk having their activities suspended, it was announced yesterday.
Labour and Social Affairs Minister Dr Majeed Al Alawi said some of the petitions had been published in these countries’ newspapers.
He said his ministry considered the societies’ actions as a breach of their rules, an infringement of the goals for which they had been established and interference in the affairs of other countries.
The minister added that the societies’ activities were limited to domestic affairs and warned them to abide by the rules of their constitutions.
[/quote]
Of course the Minister is referring to the recent petition calling for the release of the 3 pro-reform Saudi currently on trial in Riyadh signed by 200 Bahraini activists, reiterating his threats of closing down the societies- the thorn in the government’s backside.
So Minister considers this petition as meddling in other countries’ affairs, whilst Mahmood considers those who wish to see an end to the fighting in Najaf, the shia main capital for jurisprudence and theology schools, also meddling in Iraq’s internal affairs. I just have one thing to say, human rights and religion transcend geographical boundaries and gives no right for anyone to question national allegience, its like comparing apples and oranges.
When people march against the ban of hijab in France, or the Sudanese government in Darfur, or those who support the freedom of Tibet, they are simply expressing their support for what they consider is wrong and stand up for those who may not be free to do so. Some take it a step further and prefer to physically go to the heart of the problem, but thats simply a freedom they should be free to exercise without being put in contempt whether in Saudi or Iraq.
Mahmood has an anti-islamist inclination so his agenda is biased against Ali Salman and Al-wefaq whatever they do. Majeed Al-alawi has a 100% anti-society agenda, so everything he ddoes is directed towards bringing down and suppressing the societies whatever way possible. All im trying to do is raise the other side of the story which is omitted most of the time on this site.
bahrainia
Re(2): Ali Salman on the march…
A sense of “Nationalism” is the glue that binds and bonds a group of people into a strong country.
Re: Ali Salman on the march…
that’s the wrong end of the stick you’re holding Bahrainia.
public anger and demonstrations are one thing, offering (and being ready) to MARCH to Najaf in support of a call by a foreign power is another. That’s what I am trying to highlight.
Taking a just and moral stance is admirable and I fully support that. Taking a stance against the desecration of any shrine or religious symbol is important and I support that fully. Again, what I am against in this particular situation is that Ali Salman physically offered and appeared ready to march to Najaf with his supporters to answer the call of a foriegn power, that I am against. Now do you understand?
You know how I regard Al-Alawi from the other topics I have discussed, so don’t try to make me look like I’m his ardent supporter.
I am not anti-islamist, nor is this web diary, blog, site whatever you want to call it. Even so, I welcome your balancing input.
Ali Salman on the march…
[quote]Mahmood has an anti-islamist inclination so his agenda is biased against Ali Salman and Al-wefaq whatever they do.[/quote]
What I have seen Mahmood incline towards is to be a voice against the very asswipes who would like to see YOU
BAHRAINIA covered from HEAD to TOE, barefoot, pregnant and cooking in the kitchen all the time, and never letting you leave the country to study abroad.
Re: Ali Salman on the march…
1. Yes I am covered from head-to-toe, and lovin it baby
2. its hard driving barefoot, so I have to wear shoes in the car unfortunately then I found out my nail varnish keeps chipping so I decided to invest in a pair of Jimmy Choos instead of camal-leather flip flops.
3. im not pregnant yet unfortunately but im sure i’ll be at it day and night attempting to conceive once im married
4. i have to say jam and toast is my speciality dish, I dont think Jamie Oliver will be asking me on his show too soon.
5. Funnily, im writing this post using my campus computer abroad.
6. Oh sorry, i forgot to mention I recently joined Al-wefaq when signing the petition a few months ago. I’ll be helping out with the Youth committee after I finish up my studies here, so i’ll be happy to meet up with ya’ll once i get my nice little oppressed arse down there!
bahrainia
Re(1): Whatever happened to the idea that…
Just to clarify — I don’t have a personal issue with the idea of visiting the dead or having shrines — just wondering about what seems to be a confusing emphasis on shrines. Since I am not shi’a I do not have the history or cultural understanding to explain this aspect of belief. However, if shrines and visiting the dead help you to keep an eye on the bigger picture and remind one that we are only on borrowed time so we should use it wisely, then they serve a very good purpose for you.
And my biggest issue here in Najaf is the way the SFMWB Mookie is using the passion that people feel for the Imam Ali shrine to whip up his following of dissenters to further destabilize an alreday extremely unstable country.
Let me add, as an art historian I would hate to see the shrine destroyed — just as I hated it when the Taliban destroyed the Bamiyan Buddhas.
Salaam Alaikum,
PM
Re(3): Ali Salman on the march…
How much money?
You never know where I might pop up. If I win the lottery this week I could pop up anywhere. Maybe even Shawarma Land By The Gulf.
Steve
Re(1): Ali Salman on the march…
Dear Stephanos Texanos,
Never mind that you read an entire article and decided to pick out three words that applied to you. Or would you not have been as offended if I had mentioned Pascagoula MS, or Blue Mountain WV? After all, it’s all relative…
By the way, there will be no mention of Arabs learning to fly planes in America. This is still a sore subject among Arabs and Americans alike.
As far as enforcing religious morality, I have two words for you: JOHN ASHCROFT. He who deemed that justice must pull off her blind and peek into the lives of everyday Americans, but her titties should be covered up so children can further appreciate her work of surveillance and intrusion. Is that the FBI you’re calling to pack me off to Gitmo?
Assuming they weren’t rhetorical questions, foreigners do line up for opportunities in Al Najd. Everyone of them looking to be the next Rafiq Hariri or Ghaith Pharoan, who made more money than small nations. No one puts a gun to the heads of Pakistanis, Indians, Brits and Americans to go work in the wacky society that is Saudi Arabia, but the promise of quick bank offsets the social and cultural price that they pay.
Americans and other foreigners were very welcome in every home in the Arabian peninsula. They still are, as long as they are respectful and don’t take advantage of their hosts. Don’t get us wrong Steve, if it weren’t for George H W Bush (and don’t pull the Texan card, we all know the only Texans who he could get to vote for him early in his career were the elites of the Houston suburbs, who didn’t care that he was snob, and sent him to the House of Reps), we’d be filling out our Ba’ath party membership cards instead of having a frank discussion about society and politics.
Don’t pretend that you don’t have your problems. For every Steer, queer and flag waving Yellow-Rose-of-Texas-singing, country-music-listening, Wal-Mart-shopping, Semper Fideling, Dale Earnhart Jring, belt-buckle flashing denizen of the Lone Star state, there is a New Englander who has had enough of having that shoved in his face. I also doubt that Baylor, and Texas A& M have much on Yale and Harvard, although Rice could possibly find its way on the menu…
Oh, and I seem to recall what my father used to say. A little knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge at all.
Yee-Ha!
John
[Modified by: Bahraini Terp (johnc) on August 31, 2004 05:46 PM]
Re(2): Whatever happened to the idea that…
There is a vast difference between America and the Taliban, my friend. The Taliban, and their Saudi/Wahhabi patrons, are ignorant destroyers of the best in civilization. America and democracy preserve the best in all civilizations and pass it down to the next generation.
The Imam Ali shrine still stands for the next generation.
Steve
Re(4): Ali Salman on the march…
A sense of nationalism also allows people to do great things they could never do otherwise, like lift men to the moon or dig a Panama Canal or defeat racist tyrannies in a world war.
Steve
Re: Ali Salman on the march…
[quote] In reactionary societies where ignorance and assumptions rule the day (whether it be the heart of Al Najd or the heart of Texas) …[/quote]
Whoa, there, cowboy. I think you’ve been watching too many cowboy and Indian movies. Texas is a fine state full of fine people, of whom nary a one demands that you follow their religion. Perhaps there are Southern Baptists who may bore you to death witnessing for Jesus but they won’t be legislating any religious police to enforce their morality on you. That would be backward and intolerant to Texans.
For an ignorant state, there seemed to be a fair number of Arab students enrolled at our state universities. Some of them are smart enough to graduate. Quite a few pilots from Arab air forces were taught to fly in Texas by our Air Force. Why do you think Arabs seek out ignorant Texans to tutor them?
Unlike Najd, we don’t outlaw the practice of other religions nor do we restrict visits from foreigners. Texas is full of foreigners. There are Koreatowns and Vietnamese sections in Dallas and Houston. Lots of Chinese. There are a lot of Eastern Europeans and, of course, Mexicans and immigrants from Latin and South America looking for opportunity. Are there a lot of foreigners in Najd looking for opportunity?
Texas is an open society, like the rest of America. Is Najd? A foreigner can roam all over Texas without having his head cut off by ignorant locals. Can an American do that in Najd?
To paraphrase that great philosopher and travel agent, Jasra, you need to get a passport and visit Texas to understand it.
Happy To Puncture Your Prejudices,
Steve
Re(3): Ali Salman on the march…
A sense of “Nationalism” is also the wall that separates the community of human beings into a collection of often arbitrary states who believe they have more things differentiating each other than they have in common.
Re(3): Ali Salman on the march…
“Steve in Bahrain? I would PAY good MONEY to see that!”
There are thousands of Steve’s already in Bahrain; it’s called the 5th fleet.
Re: Ali Salman on the march…
“So if Mecca was being attacked, are Muslims not obliged to answer the call to jihad? If Imam Ali’s holy site is being attacked, are Shia’s not obliged to answer the call to protect it? ”
No. You would be a “terrorist” in Mahmood’s book.
Resistance to foreign occupation is not legitimate.
Re(3): Whatever happened to the idea that…
Steve ..
You are bringing tears to my eyes. I feel so incredibly grateful that American is the superpower that will protect all the worlds’ civilizations from all evil. What would we do without you? Let me think .. if the US werent who the US was, morally, ideoligically, protecting the weak, spreading democracy and all that is good .. then … umm… aha! We wouldnt have the Israeli problem! And that means that we wouldnt be bombarded with visions of Palestinians being displaced and systematically destroyed …
God bless America and all of that. May she continue to do all that is good and right and proper ..
😉
JJ
Re(2): Ali Salman on the march…
Well said Bahraini Terp! I think our friend Stephanos Texanos just got a run for his money! Tis tough ‘smoking out’ some reasonable wise intelligence from dem caves in America …
and, incidentally, since we are all in the spirit of quoting, some guy called William once said, “Neither a travel agent nor a philosopher be” ..
😉
JJ
Re(4): Ali Salman on the march…
I would disagree .. the ‘mini steve’s’ are firmly placed in washington .. most of them in the pentagon. the 5th fleeters are a but mellower and a bit more open to this country and in all honesty have contributed significnatly to our economy. just look at the development that has taken place in juffair …
jj
Re(5): Ali Salman on the march…
Hmm, funny… I’m just wondering… isn’t the US Navy generally regarded as having superior pilots to those in US Air Force? (I don’t know why I asked, coz I already know what your answer will be).
Chan’ad
Re(5): Whatever happened to the idea that…
Steve, what you been smoking? Time to put it out whatever it is, and face the reality of what’s going on in Israel/Occupied Territories.
Israel’s built on ethnically cleansing the original Palestinian population in 1948. This has been followed up with a policy of military occupation of those living in the rest of Palestine. When the Palestinians responded in 1987 with civil disobedience and stone throwing they were shot by the Israelis – so much for your wishful implication that “if you treat them right, they’ll treat you right”.
Unfortunately, like the rest of the region the Islamists are leading the Palestinians to catastrophe with their strategy of suicide bombing, giving Sharon a causus belli to trash the Occupied Territories.
America’s interests do not necessarily coincide with Israel’s – no matter how many times its repeated by civilian officials in the Pentagon or their mates in the press.
Re(2): Ali Salman on the march…
[quote]Never mind that you read an entire article and decided to pick out three words that applied to you. Or would you not have been as offended if I had mentioned Pascagoula MS, or Blue Mountain WV? After all, it’s all relative…[/quote]
I only picked out the foolish words, John, ones that convey a casual and deeply uninformed prejudice. Since I lived in Texas for twelve or so years, I am uniquely able to dispose of your foolish assertion that Texas and Najd are equivalent. Let’s begin, shall we?
You are quite correct to point out that Texas has some good schools and that there may be even better schools elsewhere in America, which has a love of knowledge. Where in Najd are there universities of the quality of the least Texan university? Where are the Najd universities to which the whole world applies to receive cutting-edge knowledge in their chosen profession?
And since you take such a condescending view of Texas, where are the Bahraini universities which match those of Texas?
In Dallas, those backward Texans invented the integrated circuit, the basis of these computers on which we write. What part of the computer revolution was invented in Najd? Or by the condescending Bahrainis? Surely, you must have done quite a bit of it, superior as you are.
In Houston, the backward and ignorant Texans have built a world class organ transplant center. In Najd, the most advanced Saudi surgery consists of cutting off infidels heads. Rich Arabs flock to Houston to save their lives with liver and lung transplants, not Najd. Certainly not Bahrain. There is many a Saudi walking around alive with an American heart beating in his chest, no doubt allowing him to spend a few years more showing his gratitude by cheering on the jihad against America.
In Houston, the backward Texans controlled manned flights to the moon and back. How many moon rockets are on display in Najd, representing the space programs of Saudi Arabia? While Texans are exploring space, the final frontier, going where no man has gone before, the Saudi Neanderthals of Najd want to pull the world back into the thirteenth century.
Of course, your pose of superiority rests on accomplishment, right? How many interplanetary space probes are being guided from Bahrain? Since you’re so much smarter than us dumb Texans, I imagine quite a few more than us. Could you give me a round number? You can round it up if you like.
Bahrain buys F-16 fighter jets built in Fort Worth by those dumb Texans, not Saudi jets built in Najd. You’d think, smart as you are, you would build your own jets in Bahrain rather than buy them from halfwit Texans.
I could go on, but you get the point. Maybe.
As for John Ashcroft enforcing religious morality, you’re simply clueless. Ashcroft has had no effect on religious morality anywhere in America other than in the propaganda screeds of whiny liberals and the gullible foreigners who read them. The provisions of the Patriot Act to be used against terrorists simply duplicates the same Rico Act provisions used against organized crime. That means a judge can authorize a wiretap of a suspected terrorist if the FBI shows cause, among other common sense measures. The FBI did not have legal authority to examine wannabe Sep 11 skyjacker Moussaoui’s laptop, which could have unravelled the plot. The Patriot Act fixed that.
And really, to claim that Ashcroft is the equivalent of the Saudi religious police of Najd is so profoundly uninformed it’s hard to believe you know anything about America.
You do have a point that foreigners do flock to Saudi Arabia for jobs, but that’s hardly the equivalent of the economy in Texas, now is it? Foreigners do the work in Saudi Arabia because the Saudis are too lazy to do it or simply not smart enough. The Saudis are attempting to stuff Saudis into jobs the foreigners do now by subsidizing them and passing laws forcing Saudi companies to hire Saudis.
By contrast, Texans work. They study in night school to learn complex new skills so as to advance themselves, unlike the indolent Saudis. The Texan government doesn’t have to bribe companies to hire Texans nor does it need to pass laws to force companies to hire Texans. My phone was always ringing with headhunters trying to place me in a new job. Texans create so many jobs that there isn’t enough local labor to fill all the jobs.
Unlike in Saudi Arabia, a foreigner in Texas doesn’t have to watch his mouth and behavior for fear of offending the weak, stupid, and intolerant Saudis and being fired. In Texas, you can say anything you want. Texas does not forbid other religions, as the backward Saudis do. You have your choice of churches, synagogues, mosques, reading rooms, etc. There are even people who worship space aliens. Without fear.
Is that the way it is in superior Bahrain? Could you declare a Temple of the Bahraini Terp and announce yourself to be High Priest Johnc, then go looking for converts in the streets of Manama? You could in Dallas. Or Houston. Or Waco, Austin (especially Austin), San Antonio, ad infinitum.
It’s hard to believe that Americans are welcome in every home in Saudi Arabia when they are cutting the heads off infidels there to the satisfaction of most Saudis. An American would be crazy to step into the home of a Saudi, any of whom are likely to give you up to their headcutting cousins. By contrast, Texans do not ambush Saudis, cut their heads off, nor drag their corpses behind their cars shouting “God is great!” Those are the acts of barbarians.
If you think there is a majority of rich people in Houston, you don’t know Houston, which is a majority blue collar town. You can not get elected in Houston by just appealing to the rich. You have to convince a majority of middle class people to vote for you. It wasn’t that hard to get Texans to vote for a WWII hero and successful businessman like the elder Bush. Those are exactly the kind of people we want in office.
You are also far off base in your cartoonish stereotypes of Texans and this largely fictional friction between Texans and New Englanders. The truth is that all the people who live in cities across the United States are pretty much the same, with only a few exceptions. There are trivial differences in local customs and dress, but Americans are a fairly homogenous mass.
I’ve lived in all the regions of the US except for the northwest and there’s not a dime’s worth of difference between the people in them. You can go to work in an office in Sacramento or St Louis or Dallas or DC and its going to be pretty much the same except for the view out the window. Decades of a common mass media and travel and migration between states has pretty much evened everyone out. Most people in the US have the same Midwestern accent. Most of the new suburbs look identical.
The only people who bitch about other parts of the US are parochial radicals. No sensible person takes them seriously. Except you, apparently. We adults don’t have time for that nonsense. We have work to do.
You’ve assembled quite a string of Texan cliches in your diatribe but its a shallow scoop of Texas reality. You probably should have listened to your father and taken his advice more seriously.
Steve
PS. We do say “yeehaw!” You did get that right. And it feels good.
Re(4): Ali Salman on the march…
I wouldn’t be caught dead in the Navy. I’m Air Force and only Air Force, a mighty sky hero hurtling through the heavens on a chariot of fire, not some rust picker scraping a boat deck.
Quite Incensed,
Steve
Another Islamist spectacular
What sort of people take children hostages? The predictable answer is of course Islamists. It’s as if these Islamists have so much self hate that they set out to find the most offensive crime they can find – the mass murder of children.
Now it seems that the terrorists weren’t even Chechens but Arabs – people who have nothing to do with the Caucaus region. Which brings it back to the problem identified above of Arab Islamists such as Ali Salman constantly inciting their supporters to interfere in other countries affairs.
Re(4): Whatever happened to the idea that…
Again with the mockery, Jasra, just like an American woman. Do you women all have meetings or something to cop the same attitude with us men?
That aside, I’m pleased to make you so happy. No, really.
It’s true that without America you’d have no Israeli problem. You would have killed them all by now. But you would have found somebody else to hate just as much and Al Jazeera would find other images to inflame you. My guess is that it would Chechnya.
We’re not going to allow the Arabs to destroy Israel any more than we’re going to allow the Arabs to destroy Kuwait. Or Bahrain. The Fifth Fleet isn’t parked there by accident. Do you think your forays into democracy would be enhanced if the Fifth Fleet set sail from Bahrain, never to return?
And really, Jasra, if the Israelis were systematically destroying the Palestinians their population would be decreasing, not increasing. If the Israelis were Arabs, the Palestinians would be extinct by now. If the Arabs invested in Palestine to build it up rather than send weapons to tear it up, the Israelis would be seeking work in Palestine instead of vice versa and the Palestinians would be in a position of strength to dictate terms.
Steve
Re(3): Ali Salman on the march…
Sorry to disappoint you, Jasra, but I took a night off to sleep. I need to recharge my batteries now and then to generate my lightning bolt-like replies.
Steve
Re(5): Whatever happened to the idea that…
Steve ..
I don’t think its mockery, per se. Merely a sprinkle of intelligence, and copious amounts of common sense. Perhaps what you are really noticing is the significant lack of testosterone.
Re the Palestinians. Their demographics are decreasing precisely because of the systamtic attempt at ethnic cleansing. And second, the reasons why Palestinian would never be able to stand as a ‘somewhat’ independent bona fide economic entity is the reason why they didn’t like the Oslo Agreements.
But, I digress. We were talking about God Bless Ameria and all of that. Glad to see that your lightning bolt intelligent replies are back in action again. I was getting a bit worries, to tell you the truth.
Jasra Jedi
Re: Another Islamist spectacular
The heavily armed insurgents — described by officials and people who fled the school as a mix of ethnic [b]Chechens, Ingush, Russians and Ossetians[/b] — were demanding the withdrawal of Russian troops from the nearby separatist republic of Chechnya and the release of guerrillas jailed after a raid this summer in Ingushetia, which borders Chechnya.
From my understanding, none of those demands reflect (purely) Arab or Muslim concerns. Let’s be sure to call a spade a spade. This is a horrible tragedy, and those responsible must pay. Let’s prevent it from becoming a travesty by blaming someone (Arabs and muslims, who btw aren’t necessrily synonymous) who had nothing to with the matter.
I will grant you your point that this is more than likely to be the outcome when community leaders irresponsibly throw their weight around in volatile and incendiary situations.
John
[Modified by: Bahraini Terp (johnc) on September 03, 2004 02:01 PM]
Re(6): Ali Salman on the march…
Speaking in a biased sense, the Air Force is far superior. Our training is of equivalent quality, largely because the military believes in spreading knowledge between the services with exchanges and papers and whatnot. I think the Air Force equipment is better because it does not suffer from the additional constraints imposed to launch and land on ships. The Navy also suffers from having their aircraft constantly bathed in salt water, a mildly corrosive liquid, and bending their jets on the hard landings they must make to scrape the deck for the wire.
Unbiasedly speaking, the Navy pilots have quite a feat to accomplish at the end of every sortie, when they are the most fatigued, of landing on a ship. I have visited an aircraft carrier in port. They are very large ships but very small airports. I would not want to have to land on that moving postage stamp at the end of every sortie, especially in bad weather. Those guys lose a jet every six month cruise. Sometimes they just disappear out in the briny deep and never a piece of them is ever found.
So to answer your question, the Navy aircrews are very good, but the Air Force is great.
Chan’ad, why do you even ask these questions?
Steve
Re(1): Another Islamist spectacular
The BBC says nine of the twenty terrorists were Arabs:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3624024.stm
Steve
WHAT THE *@%^???!!!!
Maybe one day, I will be in prison. Maybe I will I have commited a crime, perhaps truly an act against society or even if I go for fighting oppresion.
If my release is EVER made conditional to the suffering of innocent children, then I don’t deserve to live. I won’t have any more honor or dignity with which to live by. Don’t spin it, don’t make excuses for it, don’t….. whatever
I haven’t felt this sick since Columbine…
Re(3): Ali Salman on the march…
Steve,
As a native New Englander, I have to say I am in complete agreement with you. Thank goodness John didn’t dump on California or I might have a change of heart, but there is still hope cause Arnold is working on them.
M
Re: WHAT THE *@%^???!!!!
It’s been a busy week for the jihad.
The figures are fuzzy but the numbers from Beslan, Russia show that in their heroic attack on an elementary school some 26 Muslim terrorists (including 10 Arabs), apparently fighting for Chechnya, captured about 1000 innocent civilians. They killed 332 of them, though they are still counting the dead. Than includes 155 dead children. 531 people are hospitalized, most injured from bomb blasts, the others with gunshot wounds. That includes 283 children, of whom 92 are in “very grave” condition. The Muslims shot many of the children in the back as they escaped, another act of heroism by the brave jihad warriors.
From My Way News:
“Alla Gadieyeva, 24, who was taken captive with her 7-year-old son and mother, said the militants displayed terrifying brutality from the start. One gunman, whose pockets were stuffed with grenades, held up the corpse of a man just shot in front of hundreds of hostages and warned: “If a child utters even a sound, we’ll kill another one.””
Meanwhile in Iraq, Muslims killed twelve Nepali cooks and cleaners for, among other things, worshipping Buddha. They beheaded the first one and then shot the others, one by one, in front of the video camera. They then sent this trophy of their proud deed into Al Jazeera, which is sympathetic to such deeds. The Muslim head-cutters know that Al Jazeera will broadcast their snuff videos to a friendly audience.
Meanwhile, the bodies of three Turks were found in Iraq, apparently killed by the murderous jihadi leader Zarqawi. Two of them were truck drivers. One did laundry. Another glorious victory for Islam.
Why should we respect a religion which seeks to advance itself through such gruesome and depraved violence?
Now, to be fair, the Chechens do have a legitimate grievance with the Russians, who invaded their homeland and did quite a bit of violence to Chechens. If I were a Chechen, I’d fight them, too. However, their manner of fighting them is inhuman and depraved, in the manner of Wahhabis, whose practice was to annihilate everyone not of their faith. I can’t think of any cause that would justify the child-killing of Beslan. But, there are Muslims who do.
Years ago, in London I think, a young boy visiting the zoo with his Mom fell into the gorilla enclosure, striking the concrete with his head and knocking himself out cold. The crowd watched in horror as the mamma gorrilla approached the boy, picked him up, and cuddled him, trying to revive him, until giving him up to the zookeeper. I can’t help but think that a child is safer in the arms of a wild ape plucked from the darkest African jungle than the arms of the graduate of a madrassa who has been indoctrinated to suppress any human feeling to fight jihad against the infidels.
Talking with my friends in the office here in Washington, DC, we can’t help but think: Russia today, America tomorrow. There is no doubt in our minds that there are radical Muslims who would love to repeat the Beslan horror in an American school. My guess is that a lot of Americans are thinking the same thing.
The Beslan atrocity occurs just as the Republican convention closes with the message that Bush is better at defending America than Kerry. According to polls, American voters will place their votes based on two major issues, the economy and defense. Beslan places more weight on the defense issue, where voters have more confidence in Bush.
Kerry favors a more defensive posture against terror attacks. Bush favors offense. Kerry talks about responding to future attacks. Bush chooses to take the fight to the enemy. I would think that most Americans would rather not wait for Kerry’s response to a Muslim massacre at an American high school. We would much rather fight the Muslim crazies in Iraq, not at home.
The Arab Muslim world of the Middle East is a screwed up place. It is unable to fix itself. Left alone, the probability is that it will fall backwards under the rule of theocratic tyrannies. Left alone, they will continue to send terrorists to butcher Americans. Down this road inevitably lies a catastrophic attack with a WMD on an America city. Or cities.
We have to intervene in the Middle East and deflect its savage trajectory. We have to drag its people, kicking and screaming, into the modern world where everyone lives at peace with each other, respects each other’s religion, speaks freely, has a right to own property, can form a business easily without bribery or connections, and can vote for their own leaders.
It can only done by force. The mass of Muslim Arabs are hopelessly prejudiced against the outside world. Out of ignorance, they fight even those outsiders who seek to improve their lives. Those few elites who seek to pull their neighbors into modernity are too few, insufficiently motivated, and make too feeble an effort. They will never get there. They make only incremental gains to be wiped out by fundamentalist reaction.
We have to succeed in planting a modern, democratic state in Iraq as the first step in modernizing the Middle East. Making Iraq successful will demoralize its despicable neighboring rulers and encourage their populations to emulate Iraq. It’s not going to go easy. It’s going to take tenacious, unwavering will to keep after it despite reverses. Only Bush has that kind of will. Kerry blows with the wind. Beslan helps reelect Bush.
If we don’t win in Iraq, the alternative is Beslan, over and over again, bigger and bigger.
Steve
Re(7): Ali Salman on the march…
Hardly true. Navy and Air Force pilots are equivalent in dogfighting skills. They train for dogfighting from the same concepts. Landing on a carrier is not a dogfighting skill.
None of the Stealth aircraft are built for dogfighting. The whole point of Stealth technology is to avoid a dogfight or any fight. None of the Stealth aircraft even carries a gun or missiles.
If you put Air Force pilots up against Navy pilots in the same aircraft, it would probably be a draw. However, an F-15 has the edge on an F-14, an F-16 the edge on an FA-18. This is due to the compromises in fighter design to launch from a ship. Navy shipborne aircraft are usually punier than Air Force land-launched aircraft, carry less payload and have shorter ranges.
Steve
Re(8): Ali Salman on the march…
These navy aircraft are pathetic. Its not surprising that the airforce would win.
Re(1): WHAT THE *@%^???!!!!
In Iraq you’ve been creating loads more of the fanatics. Well done.
Ali Salman on the march…
I see this twerp Ali Salman has been at it again, blaming the massacre of children in Russia on “the Zionists”.
Re: Ali Salman on the march…
You’re joking surely? Even Ali Salman couldn’t be that crass. Face it Ali, you cubist faced c**t, its your ideological brethern who are doing this. What’s that? They’re salafist not Shia? Don’t give us that bullshit pal – in practise you’re all the same. Finito. Now f**k off.
Re(2): WHAT THE *@%^???!!!!
False. The Iraqis don’t buy into that fundamentalist crap. I might point out that the significant resistance in Iraq is in the old Baathist strongholds. They were fanatics long before we got there. Most of Iraq does not resist. They’d rather have a future. They won’t have one if the neighborhood tyrants win.
Steve
Re(1): Ali Salman on the march…
That’s not quite so. The suicide bombing and wholesale slaughter seem to be a feature of the Wahhabi Sunnis. The Shia seem to favor the more traditional forms of terrorism, where they favor terrorism at all. The Wahhabi Sunni actively indoctrinate their people to make war on the infidels. My sense is that the Shia just pay lip service to jihad. You could talk reasonably with the Iranian Shia I met in school. I didn’t get the sense that they had been indoctrinated to shun infidels as the Wahhabis are.
Steve
Re(1): Ali Salman on the march…
Good point. That should read “extremist Shais”. Apologies to anyone inadvertedly offended (and no that doesn’t mean you Ali)
Re(2): Ali Salman on the march…
[quote]For every Steer, queer and flag waving Yellow-Rose-of-Texas-singing, country-music-listening, Wal-Mart-shopping, Semper Fideling, Dale Earnhart Jring, belt-buckle flashing denizen of the Lone Star state, there is a New Englander who has had enough of having that shoved in his face. [/quote]
Your point being what? Serious answer me. How the bleep to you know how we feel in New England? Are you from here? Do you live here? Have you lived here and I don’t mean in and on the rose colored confines of a campus. You got a point back it up. I am curious about your logic on how New Englanders think and feel. BTW NASCAR gets GREAT ratings in the Boston TV Market and we can get Lone Star beer from the Lone Star state and Wal-Mart is here and has been here for several years, as well as Sams Club. Lots of Dairy cattle around too and we do have a country music FM station and the flag waves in front of my house and most of my neighbors as well. Shit John I drive a PICKUP Truck! Don’t paint groups with a broad brush. Steve already does that and I think he has the patent on the site for doing so.
Re(6): Ali Salman on the march…
Navy pilots are the best. Air Force pilots are good but don’t stand a chance in a dog fight against a Navy Pilot. Air Force has more technology (Stealth) but that doesn’t equate to flying skills. Try running the tamale sometime in the dark with high winds and rough seas.
Ayatollah Stevani …
Ayatollah Steve ..
So, now the Wahabbi sunnis are more into terrorism than the Shia, huh?! Interesting – the spin you have on events. I wonder what your best friends the Israelis would say about that – specially concerning Hizbollah. Werent they the worst of the worst? Or were they just the worst of the worst until the Salafis came along??!!
Somewhat amused in Bahrain,
JJ
Re: Ayatollah Stevani …
Okay, Jasra, maybe you got me on this one. I forgot about Hizbollah et al. I guess there are more Shia than the nice cultured Persians I met in school.
So happy to amuse you,
Steve
Re: Ali Salman on the march…
Are you confusing Ali Salman with Ali Abdulla? I couldn’t find any reference to Ali Salman condoning this heinous act. Please elaborate and if possible give references.
Ali Salman on the march…
i hate wahabist and wahabism!