I would like to highlight a comment posted by Bahraini Terp which is well worth highlighting. Thank you Bahraini Terp for this very eloquent response and clarifications on where you (and I as well as most of us regulars here) think Arabs SHOULD stand today:
I’d like to slap some myths upside the head here, close the book on things a bit.
Isolationist America did a fantastic job of taking in immigrants. No other society has been as open to diverse populations for as long as the United States. That said, American society was able to do this mostly by remaining as uninvolved in regional politics and other minor scrapes as possible. Send me your poor, tired and disenchanted, leave your issues at home. The advatages of that, in my opinion far outweigh the risks. yet, those risks have to be accounted for. In my opinion, one of the risks was a general ignorance within American society about international affairs, and that bleeds into the State Department and sundry governmet and corporate entities who have a lot of catching up to do to ther nations that have had centuries of history, both glorious and inglorious, under their belt. US diplomacy within the superpower community is a marvel in and of itself, but its work among smaller entities leaves much to be desired. That again, is nothing to be ashamed of. As far as I am concerned, America is a young nation and slowly achieving the proficiency it needs to deal with the rest of the world. I am not concerned, because my experience with the American people is that they will learn this (or outsource the business) in due time.
Reading is not a lost art in the Middle East. Before George “Left my kids Behind” Bush filled the streets of Baghdad with GIs, those same streets were flocking with vendors of books. Not all of them were socialist propoganda either. But just to verify, I suggest checking with Raed, or with Salaam Pax (I’m usually confused about whether or not they are one and the same). Iraq’s high literacy and level of education (comparatively) gave its citizens a voracious apetite for knowledge and wit. When stability returns to that country, Insha’allah they will pick up where they left off. Granted this argument has various nuances but I am loath to address them here. Suffice to say that a literary culture among the masses needs to develop in the Arab Nation, but it is not as absent as people on the outside think, nor will we flaunt it just to satisfy their consciences. Evidence of a literary culture doesn’t make the nightly news, but those who have been in the Middle East all know of its effects.
The Protocols of Zion are another hoax. What started out as a satire of Napoleon and his desire to conquer the world, soon was parodied and Jews were substituted in the appropriate arenas. Independant research determined that the book was fictional at best. However the political advantages to be gained by propogating its claims to the masses were too good to resist. The Soviets, Nazis all made it readily available, as did Nasser, Sadat, King Faisal. The Protocols really are paranoia literature that seek to frighten people into opposing Freemasons and other secret societies. Well, with all that’s being written about them, they’re really not all that secret anymore. These are “spook” stories designed to take advantage of your ignorance and gullibility. It helps our esteemed political and religious leaders keep the focus off themselves as they rob the Arab people blind. How likely are you to devote your time and effort to making sure they are on the straight and narrow if your time and energy is devoted to finding fresh yehudi conspiracies (that always sound exactly like the old ones).
Everyone has spies, in everyone else’s agencies. And not all of them are dodging masked gunmen, sleeping with hot women and stealing nuclear secrets. Most are just gathering or corroborating information for policy makers and strategists. Cloak and Dagger is an accepted component of international diplomacy, get over it. I’m not as worried about your government reading my governments email as much as I am about my government reading MY EMAIL!
Arab Americans have our own lobby is Washington (with or without Bandar Bush), and our own senators and congressmen, many of them prominent and appealing even to those who don’t share their heritage. There are a variety of lobbyists and non-profit organizations that cater to a plethora of interests of Arab-Americans and International Arabs. They are in Washington because they realize that it is a lot of hard work to bring the US government to draft policies that have our interests in mind. Just as those policies do not accurately reflect our needs and desires, neither does American policy accurately reflect Jewish interests and desires. You can make the argument that it better reflects Jewish interests than Arab interests, but don’t tell me that you best option to be heard in Washington is by hijacking planes.
And for that matter, here’s all I need to know about 9-11. Arabs and muslims conducted a coordinated hijacking to attack economic and military targets in the United States. They used civillian resources, civillian hostages and destroyed one pretty big civillian target. That’s pretty sick, because it defined the battle as being between the common Arab man and the big bad American government and its big bad corporate cronies. Now that’s a nice metaphor, but what are you going to do now that the big bad American government has marched into your street, kicked down your door and searched your car? Thanks for making such a bold statement!
I don’t know what your local turban is feeding you these days, but if you think that Arab geopolitics is chummy tea parties on the White House lawn, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell that you might be interested in!
It is not inconceivable that a handful of young boys in the Gaza Strip have been rewarded, or even been given incentive to manifest defiance and resistance. However, it is inconceivable that if the everyday Saudi instead spent his money on caviar and Rolls-Royces like every newly minted millionaire ought to, then every Palestinian would go quietly back to their refugee camps and make tea. What parent has not given his toddler candy to go potty, his adolescent an allowance raise to take out the garbage, his teenager the car keys so he can have a couple of hours of peace and quiet or his about-to-graduate child advice about career paths? Yet, even if a child were raised by wolves, he would inevitably master control of his bladder and bowel movements, learn that waste products need to be removed from living quarters, come to appreciate privacy and serenity and realize the fruits of labor and effort. Again, the intifadah may not have existed as we know it without financial compensation and support, but the nationalist aspirations of displaced peoples to self-determination will never go away. This is true of Jew, Arab, Armenian, Kurd, Shiite, Slav, Kashmiri or anyone else. If anything, it is the God given prerogative to protect ones own community and dignity that manifests itself in resistance. Considering that popular opinion in the Middle East contends that the state of Israel is supported by the United States with money, fighter jets, tanks and high-tech weapons, complaining about little boys with rocks and sticks is rather petty, don’t you think?
On the other hand, Islamic fundamentalist militancy has crossed the line. Suicide bombings and financing of terror-training camps, not to mention the hostage taking, rape and slaughter of schoolchildren, are atrocious events and warrant a full-scale re-examination of where Islamic geopolitics is going. If this keeps up, then the extermination of the Arabs will have come at our own hands.
The American media is rather one-sided and doesn’t like the maverick style of Al-Jazeera, but that doesn’t make them Zionist puppets. The American media is a cartel of corporate ventures that are sustained purely by profit. Hence they address such issues that will gather the ratings. The American viewing public isn’t obsessed with promoting the Zionist agenda as you think they are, so stuff it. At the same time, if the American public were more discerning and held the media cartels more accountable, the situation could improve. That said, there’s something fishy about an Arab who gets all of his information from the town gossip, calling out the American who gets his information from the “Zionist controlled” media. Can you say, the pot calling the kettle black?
The Holocaust is a dark blemish on human history, as are the purges of Stalinist Russia, the massacres of Halabja, Hama and even Sabra and Shattila. Not to mention the Ottoman massacres of the Armenians, or any other episode of ethnic cleansing. Nonetheless, on whatever side you take on the issue, to utilize these disgusting episodes as some sort of political capital, whether you are Jewish or anti-Jewish, is beyond pathetic, it is disgusting. In America, criticism has already begun about leaders who use 9-11 for political gain, because it cheapens the solemnity of what happened. Have some respect for the dead, and for their descendants and/or relatives who live with a pain and fear that you and I couldn’t dream of in our worst nightmares.
A few months ago, I was at a community meeting of Armenian-Americans, and one gentleman stood up and challenged his people, “When will we stop blaming the Turks for everything?”. Even as they were scattered to the four winds, and left without a homeland, they have managed to put their talents together to sustain their race, their heritage and their people. They picked themselves up, when everyone counted them out, ready to put them on the list with the Dodo bird. When will we as Arabs, stop blaming Zionists and America for the fate we have brought on our own heads? When will we stop pouting like children that Daddy Britain and Mommy France didn’t give us the sweets they promised?
Lets give ourselves credit by living upright lives, by being fully contributing members to society, and if you don’t think that’s possible, look at this list of Arabs who got to where they are in life by being concerned about more than the next mealtime.
http://www.aaiusa.org/famous_arab_americans.htm
link to original comment here
Comments
All In on the Pocket Aces
Excellent piece. I am sick and tired of seeing people claiming to be representatives of Arab-Americans whining about being victims.
Bahraini Terp tells it like it is and calls for people to take responsibility for themselves. You can rise to the heights or fall to the depths, it is up to you.
I’m an immigrant myself and while I am proud of my heritage and will never forget where I come from, I am American now.
All In on the Pocket Aces
It was a wonderful. In America we are such mongrels that we find it hard to separate Jew, Christian, Muslim from atheist. My ancestors worshiped the gods and painted their bodies, My family now has several religious sects, we have our resident Arab, His Father was from Syria. My daughter-in-law is Russian. My niece is gay and only one of many, We have mixed race babies and all of us belong to each other.
We are not perfect here. We have fools who judge people by what they pray, the color of their skin, Whether your hair is purple or not. But most of the people I know are decent and accepting of everyone doing their own thing. Nothing is perfect.
But remember our population has inter married, adopted and melded together. Those who come here yearn to live a better life and though we have many poor people we try as a society to feed, cloth, and house them. I wish no person went to bed hungry,Hell I wish they all had beds, I believe Americans should share our abundance, but I hate that Europe feels so superior and what the hell their brightest and best came here.
Mahmood, you give me faith we can all live in peace in this world and for all the differences in there is much in Common
All In on the Pocket Aces
A fantastic piece, so much so I have sent it to the Daily Telegraph editor hoping he will give it to a greater audience. everything is not right with the world but taking a measure view of things like this piece will help give reason and reasonablness a voice
All In on the Pocket Aces
May I point out that for a country that BT doesn’t think knows much about international relations, we’ve done pretty well. For example, our dominant mode of interaction with the rest of the world is peaceful commerce where both parties prosper. How many superpowers can say that? How many European powers can say that?
When we have been pressed into war, as in WWII, our enemies have been generously treated. Germany and Japan became liberal democracies and economic superpowers under American occupation. How many times has that happenned to victims of European conquest? Since they have more experience in world affairs than we jejeune Americans, they have been wiser than us, right? Or did they wreak vengeance on their enemies in such places as Versailles, where many of those European diplomats gathered whom BT presumably thinks were more experienced than Americans.
And as long as we are talking about it, what object of Arab conquest benefitted from it? I’m assuming that the Arab states have more experience than we Americans, right? Please name all the Arab occupations that have resulted in the victim nation acquiring democracy and economic success. Kuwait under Iraq? Beirut under Syria?
You might also consider whether those inexperienced Americans did not show coolness under provocation as a nuclear power. If somebody had a nuclear arsenal, who would be safer with it than America? Would you have liked it if Stalin alone had nuclear weapons? Russia is one of those established worldly powers BT admires. Do you think Soviet Russia would have refrained from using nukes without the US to counter it firmly over decades?
Our restraint with the Soviet Union gave it time to crumble under its own weight without a third world war. With wise diplomacy and conduct of international relations by America, millions of people in Eastern Europe are free. How many people have been freed by these wise old powers BT favors?
Where is the equivalent of the wisdom shown in the Marshall Plan? Can you name another country which has seen it to be in its interest to build up the economy of another continent and done so? Please list all the wise old Arab nations who have done so. Or European. Or Asian.
The fact is that the world is a much better place because of the existence of America and international relations much improved by its influence. Without America, the world would be plunged into chaos and impoverished with nutty and inhuman socialist schemes.
Steve
[Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on September 19, 2004 05:12 AM]
Oh Steve … i thought we were getting somewhere
Mulla Steve Spinstani ..
I actually felt a wee bit depressed at your response. I thought we had finally gotten somewhere in our communication across the divide with the assistance of Bahraini Terp, Peaceful Muslimah, Cha’ad and of course, Mahmoud.
I was not talking about rejecting something because it is American. I am not that superficial about values and ideas where I think that they can be segmented that easily without all the caveats of where and how they fit into a certain socio-economic-political culture at a specific point in time. And, I dont think many of the people on this blog are that simplistic about it either.
The American model worked very well in America. I am not sure that we can adopt the same model because we, unlike the founding fathers of America, have centuries of history and religion that we have to work through. So, we are not working off a clean slate where we can do away with the native inhabitants and pretend that history started in 1789.
We also cannot adopt some of the American model of capitalism until we have the legal and financial structure in place. We dont have the developed captial markets that you do, and we are quite a ways away from devloping them. In fact, Islamic banking is only now being galavanized as a resource for regional venture capital. But, it will take time before we can create our own version of ‘Wall Street’.
Democracy is not an American concept. In fact, demo cratis (sp?) is originally Greek.
Lets give credit where credit is due. We are not in a pissing contest to see which country is the best ever country in the whole wide world. Its like the fundamentalist Christians who follow the Old Testatment to the word re homosexuality. Its like the fundamentalist Moslems who follow the Koran to the word re Sharia civil code. It might have made sense at a certain point in time, but like everything else in the world, everything innovates.
And, on a lighter note, America is only really 200 odd years old. Are you telling me that the last two hundres years has seen a quantum leap in civilization that the world has not seen before? Something more significant than the Roman Empire in its heyday? Or the Egyptians in theirs? Or the British during their peak?
Man has struggled to sort out the fundamental issue of how to live beside his fellow man under some sort of community based code since the beginning of Time. And we will continue to try and work out these boundaries. No one country or race or thinking will ever prevail for very long. Its human nature. The solution to one problem might solve the problem, but over time, it may create another. Which then needs another solution. And so on and so forth. Ad infinitum.
Hubris is dangerous Steve. Alot of what America stands for today is great. But, it isnt necessarily the solution to some of the problems that we face in a welfare based community that has strong tribal links and ties that govern our cultural norms and values throughout.
I am hardly anti American. In fact, I as as pro American as I am pro Bahraini as I am pro Education. I am not arrogant enough to think that one system or one culture has the answer to everything. Nor am I arrogant enough to think that i can ignore the role of the free market economy in the world. The situation is infinitely more complex and intricate than standing in an pro/anti American camp. Its about what we need, and how we get there. And we can only start by really defining what the problem is. And then working organically to get to a better place.
May we learn from America’s successes and my we also learn from her failures.
Re: All In on the Pocket Aces
Hi Steve, permit me to say that you’re repeating yourself! Again!
I understand the difference the United States made throughout its history, it is indeed a model to hold high and try to emulate. But all solutions American are not necessarily the medicine that could be applied to different problems and climes.
Yes America is young, yes Bahrain culturally is much older with history records and archeological findings extending more than 6,000 years, yes we have lost our way in the interim, yes it’s approximately the same throughout the Arab and larger Muslim world, yes we should strive to be better, yes we should question and hold our leaders to account, yes we have gone over all of these issues countless times, and yes we should go into action rather than diatribe mode.
And things are physically and psycologically changing on the ground. The first thing that happened here is a semblance of democracy, it is somewhat functional, otherwise I personally would not have dared start this blog and publicly lambast our parliament and leadership. Next step that is happening here maybe due to the influence of the States with the recent signings of Free Trade Agreements between our countries is that the markets and their laws and regulations are changing here, the first, evidenced by the flurry of labour market articles in the local press over the last few days, will be the complete overhaul of the labour laws to reflect the free market, and hence ultimately for the better of the Bahraini and expatriate workforce.
May I suggest – please – that rather than you coming down like a tonne of bricks on some commenters and their views, that you look for the good, rather than nitpick?
I thought that Bahraini Terp’s comments as well as Jasra’s, Chana’ad and yours are very valid and reflect their readings of the situation. In particular, Bahraini Terp’s views are quite strong in standing up and condemning the usual Arab rhetoric and conspiracy theorists, I would have thought that you would have picked up on these issues rather than the others, which from my re-reading the comments he actually completely agrees with you!
All In on the Pocket Aces
Thanks, Mahmood, for quoting this comment. It’s always good to see cogent arguments against conspiracy theories.
Steve, Steve, Steve 😉
A little humility would go a long way, my friend. You are a smart guy, Steve, but you will not be heard anywhere outside of American borders if you cannot learn to be a little more objective and show some humility. You may say you are not interested in being anybody’s friend but what I am trying to say is that people will turn off to your valuable message if they feel the messenger is clobbering them over the head with a sense of superiority.
There is nothing wrong with pointing to America’s successes and looking for a lesson to be learned in them. Perhaps there is a framework or a kernel of truth that can be applied in another situation for positive results. But while you are always quick to point out America’s successes, you don’t seem to balance that by looking at our mistakes. America’s mistakes can be just as useful to everybody and by examining them honestly you will raise your credibility with the non-American audience.
Now I have participated on a number of forums where America bashing is the rule of law. In a case like that, in seems only natural for one’s patriotism to express itself in singing the praises of the nation in most glowing — and often exaggerated — terms.
But that is not the case on this forum, Steve. The overwhelming majority of participants, especially our host, are NOT America Bashers and are exactly the kind of people that Americans should want to cultivate for friendship, intellectual exchange and bridge building between cultures. You don’t need to defend your (and my) nation here because it is not being attacked.
Yes, we critique US policy and politics; but that is to learn something, because we in the Middle East have much hard work ahead of us. You can either contribute to that by being a fair and objective source of information. Or you can discount yourself by creating the impression that you are simply a biased cheerleader who turns backflips when the star player on the opposing team goes down.
I hope and pray, you choose the former option.
Salaam Alaikum,
PM
Re: Oh Steve … i thought we were getting somewhere
Dear Sis,
I have enjoyed reading your responses in this thread. One thing stood out and that was When you wrote:
“May we learn from America’s successes and my we also learn from her failures. ”
As an American transplant in the Gulf AND as a Muslim, I say “Insha’Allah.”
And btw, the art historian in me is pretty darned impressed with those empires of yore 🙂 In fact, today in my morning class we were discussing the Sumerians and I am always amazed at their accomplishments — even though they didn’t formulate a Marshal Plan 😉
Salaam Alaikum,
PM
Re: Oh Steve … i thought we were getting somewhere
Exactly! This isn’t a pissing contest. Steve, who cares if America is the greatest most amazingley perfect and flawless country in the world or not? By merely proclaiming America as great does nothing to help us better understand how to emulate Americ’s greatness here in the vastly different conditions Bahrain or the Middle East.
Steve, you sound a lot like that chap from a few days ago who wanted to prove that Islam is the only perfect religion in the universe and everyone else is wrong. Jasra was right on about you two sounding as though you’re right out of an Indian movie plot.
All of the regular posters here have a deep respect for America, and I think we all agree that in terms of things like human rights, press freedom, and education, technological and economic development, America has far surpassed Bahrain or any other country in the Middle East. No one is challenging that at all. And just because we might choose to criticize one aspect of America does not mean that we do not recognize its great successes.
More generally all of us regular posters have differences of opinions amongst each other. But Steve, you insist on writing an essay every single time someone says something that you do not entirely agree with. It’s fine once or twice. But after a while it does not help the cause to keep repeaing over and over the same arguments. We need to agree to disagree and move the discussion forward. Most debates will not necessarily end up with everyone perfectly agreeing. It is of no use repeating the same arguments over and over again. Let’s try to find something new to argue about, or find a new way to frame our old arguments.
Cheers,
Chan’ad
Re(1): All In on the Pocket Aces
Mahmood,
BT’s comments were indeed pretty darn good and I agree with most of them. I disagree with the fashionable and thoughtless anti-Americanism I see everywhere, not just here. I see it as my job to point out the pro-American points which are so obvious that they are ignored as part of the accepted background.
I would not be sweeping up this casual anti-American propaganda if I didn’t hear a continual chant of “America is the Great Satan” from the Middle East. I am sure that you know better than this, but I am not persuaded your audience knows this or ever hears an opposing thesis.
Steve
Re(2): All In on the Pocket Aces
Steve,
I have been posting on here for a few weeks and reading the forum for a month or so prior to that. Who is it that you think is calling America the Great Satan?
It’s not me, Mahmood, Chan’ad, Bahraini Terp, Jasra Jedi, Bonsaimark, or Meggie — and we seem to be the most active participants in this dialogue. Is it stinKerr, rlesses, or Skaz? I don’t think so.
Maybe you let someone like Fuad get under your skin — but I didn’t see him get on the “Great Satan” train to hell. And anyway, did you see how many folks jumped on him? 😉
Steve, many of us are Muslims, but we are not ca. 1979 Iranians, so don’t lump us in with the wackos, ok?
Besides…. we would call it “Shaytan Akbar” — not Great Satan! tee hee 😉
Salaam,
PM
Re: Oh Steve … i thought we were getting somewhere
Jasra,
I haven’t advocated making Bahrain into an East America or for any nation to adopt the American model wholesale. As I have posted before, it’s a good idea to take American practices cafeteria-style, taking what works and rejecting what won’t. I am aware of the technical problems in implementing free markets and democracy and all the other apparatus of an advanced state.
But Jasra, put yourself in my place and listen to the endless stream of gratuitous anti-American propaganda casting America as evil. Most exasperating, such vituperation often comes from those people who have benefitted most from America. It is grating on my ear to hear such casual and unexamined negative assumptions about America posted as fact.
If Bahrain were falsely accused or maligned unfairly, would it be hubris to defend it with facts?
I’m not proposing America as the solution for all the problems in the world, yet I reject also that America is the cause of all the problems in the world. I am proposing to give credit where credit is due and place blame where blame rightly rests.
Steve
Re(1): Oh Steve … i thought we were getting somewhere
Only a few months ago in the Smithsonian I looked upon Sumerian commercial records in cuneiform written on clay tablets. They were something like two and half millenium old. I imagine that such an accomplishment as writing is the ancient equivalent of a manned landing on the moon. It’s awesome.
Then imagine how unfair it would be for someone to tar the Sumerians as economic imperialists who sought to use their economic might and monopoly on the advanced technology of writing to spread and impose their immoral culture on the world, to McSumerize it.
That would be just crazy and obnoxious, wouldn’t it?
Steve
Re(3): All In on the Pocket Aces
OK, PM, that’s fair enough that I am unfairly blasting you nice people for the propaganda of people who just happen to live near you.
Steve
Re(2): Oh Steve … i thought we were getting somewhere
No Steve, it wouldn’t be crazy and obnoxious. Just because a particular civilization developed the skill of writing, or landed a man on the moon does not mean they are perfect and flawless and should not receive any criticism. I agree with you that hating Americans just for being Americans is completely wrong. But disagreeing with a specific policy is completely reasonable,… even if they landed a man on the moon.
The Sumerians were by no means perfect, and they do deserve to be criticized. In fact, this can be said every civilization in history: the Greeks, the Romans, the Egyptians, the Persians, the Arabs, the Jews, the Chinese, the Indians, etc etc. The Indians maginificently came up with the concept of zero… but they also had the caste system. The Muslims declared an end to female infanticide, but they maintained the system of slavery right into the 20th century (or the 21st century in the case of Sudan).
It is our right and or obligation to praise what is right, and denounce what is wrong. But praising or denouncing a civilization as a whole does not really have much use if we can not identify a specific action.
Moreover, when I make criticisms of America I do not speak as a Muslim, or an Arab, or a Pakistani, and claim that we are better. I speak as a human being in the belief that there exists no perfect place in the world today, and we must continue to criticize and recognize the things that are wrong in order to get closer to the ideals.
And finally, if you are aiming your words at the America bashers, then you are speaking in the wrong forum. There are several other anti-American blogs and lists that probably need your arguments much more than the regular posters over here.
Cheers
All In on the Pocket Aces
Steve ..
“Without America, the world would be plunged into chaos and impoverished with nutty socialist schemes. ”
That is a statement that can not really be presented with factual back up nor argued with factual backup. We have a saying that the word ‘If’ is a key of Satan. In other words, we dont really know, nor can we prove, that the world would be much better off if there was no USA that did business the way it is currently doing business.
My advice is that to get the average Arab/Moslem to admit that there is a fundamental problem in the fabric of our socio-economic-political makeup is going to be hard enough without holding up the US model as the only model that will work.
And, whilst I am a firm beleiver that we have many layers of denial going on in our pscyhe and socio-economic-political fabric, I am not convinced, by any stretch of the imagination, that our path to salavation comes under the American way. Maybe under some of the American principles (Free market, free press, accountability, etc). But, not by adopting the US lock, stock and smoking barrel.
So … lets make sure that we all ask the right questions .. and lets not try and impose what we subjectively think is the only right answer. Sounds a wee bit dogmatic to me ..
Re(3): Oh Steve … i thought we were getting somewhere
Your point is taken that I am overreacting to the wrong audience. I admit that I am responding more to what I read and see in the media than to you. I have never questioned your right to criticize America. May I point out that contesting that criticism is not denying you the right to make it. And if recall, I have pointed out faults in America and democracy.
What bugs me is frivolous, wrongheaded, and just plain false criticism. In this I think you often borrow the casual negativism of the European and American left toward America without thinking very deeply about it.
Steve
Re: All In on the Pocket Aces
[quote]Steve: “Without America, the world would be plunged into chaos and impoverished with nutty socialist schemes. ”
JJ: That is a statement that can not really be presented with factual back up nor argued with factual backup. We have a saying that the word ‘If’ is a key of Satan. In other words, we dont really know, nor can we prove, that the world would be much better off if there was no USA that did business the way it is currently doing business. [/quote]
Were it not for America, the European continent would still be a Nazi empire, which is to say, a National Socialist empire impoverished by nutty and inhuman Hitlerian socialist schemes. The Nazi death factories would still be belching human ash out of its smokestacks.
Were it not for America, eastern Europe would certainly still be colonies of a Russian empire, impoverished by nutty and inhuman Soviet schemes. If encouraged by success in Europe and unopposed by America, do you think the Soviet Union would have stopped there? It’s very likely they would have taken and kept Iran, Afghanistan, and any number of other Arab countries.
If not for America, most of the Pacific rim and Oceania would be a slave empire of the Japanese.
If not for America, Afghanistan would still be a base for radical Islamist terror, where the captive Afghans would be forbidden to buy a canary or fly a kite.
If not for America, Saddam would still rule Iraq, impoverishing his people with nutty and inhuman schemes following his own brand of Arab national socialism. Not one Iraqi has been fed to the dogs or thrown into the plastic shredder or thrown off a building or decapitated by the American occupation. Likewise, Iraqis are not rounded up in by the hundreds of thousands to be bused to their freshly dug mass graves.
Were it not for the way America did business, Middle Eastern oil would never have been discovered by American geologists, the Middle Eastern oil industry would never have been developed by American businessmen, and the profits of that industry would never have reached Arab pockets.
Had America followed the European model, we would have made the Arab oil countries colonies and paid Arabs a pittance to work the oil fields while carting the profits home. Had America followed the Stalinist model, America would have made the Arab oil countries slave states in one vast oil gulag, where we worked Arab slaves to death to gather our profit. Instead, we followed a generous American model, where the Arabs reaped the bulk of the bounty of their own natural resources without much effort of their own.
[quote]My advice is that to get the average Arab/Moslem to admit that there is a fundamental problem in the fabric of our socio-economic-political makeup is going to be hard enough without holding up the US model as the only model that will work. [/quote]
What are the other models that have proven successful, Jasra? If they work, by all means, use them. The reason America succeeds is that we are happy to adopt anything from anywhere that works. We have no prejudice against success. If people from the Middle East have a prejudice against anything from the US that works, that’s quite a self-imposed handicap. Perhaps an impossible handicap to overcome.
[quote]And, whilst I am a firm beleiver that we have many layers of denial going on in our pscyhe and socio-economic-political fabric, I am not convinced, by any stretch of the imagination, that our path to salavation comes under the American way. Maybe under some of the American principles (Free market, free press, accountability, etc). But, not by adopting the US lock, stock and smoking barrel. [/quote]
Who’s asking you to, Jasra? If you adopted a free press, free market, and accountability if government, all with a Bahraini flavor, that would be quite an achievement. You’d be the most advanced Arab nation.
[quote]So … lets make sure that we all ask the right questions .. and lets not try and impose what we subjectively think is the only right answer. Sounds a wee bit dogmatic to me .. [/quote]
Let’s not reject what works just because it’s American, Jasra. That would be a wee bit reactionary and self-defeating, dontcha think?
Steve
[Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on September 19, 2004 06:17 AM]
Re(3): Oh Steve … i thought we were getting somewhere
Meggie,
As an American, my sentiments have indeed become more isolationist. I am tired of the hypocrisy, the anti-Americanism, and getting faulted for everything that’s wrong with the world. We get blamed for not doing something about the genocide in Rwanda and then get blamed for removing a murderous tyrant like Saddam. My European relatives were all against the war with Iraq but when the war in Bosnia/Kosovo was going on, they asked me when the Americans were going to come and do something about it.
When I visited a beauty parlor in a small European city, a woman blamed American space rockets for the hail that destroyed the tents at the local fairgrounds. I thought, Good God, they are now blaming us for the weather!
We are the biggest donors to the UN, the IMF, the world bank. We also give substantial amounts of foreign aid. We are the ones screaming the loudest about the war and the massacres in Sudan. All the anti-war/anti-violence protestors that filled the streets of the world’s major cities a year ago don’t give a damn about this conflict. Americans aren’t involved, so who cares?
Well, screw it. Let’s pull our troops out of Bosnia, Korea, Europe, and everywhere else where we are trying to maintain some peace. Let the world solve its own problems. No more American money to the UN, the IMF, or anybody else. There’s plenty of needy people in America. If the other countries need money for seeds, grain, AIDS drugs, construction projects, etc .. let them pray to Buddha, Allah, Vishnu, Pacha Mama, insert-deity-of choice.
Harsh? Maybe, but a lot of my fellow citizens have already reached these conclusions.
Re(4): Oh Steve … i thought we were getting somewhere
“With power comes responsiblity”
No matter what an individual feels, the most powerful nation on Earth has a responsiblity to the world community.
Sure you’ll find detractors and blamers be they individuals, groups or even countries whose criticism might be construed as selfishness or outright jeolosy, but that should be water off a duck’s back as far the US is concerned and it should strive to shoulder its responsibilty, its detractors not withstanding.
The US *is* doing good in the world. Has it lost its footing once in a while because of policies and bad decisions? Probably, but the balance of the issues is that it is doing good and world cannot live without America, whether they like it or not.
Hence, I come back to my original point: the US has the responsibility to at least try to better the world due to the fact that it is the most powerful, richest and most advanced nation on Earth.
Don’t give in, nor should you get disheartened, success is a bitter pill to swallow for some.
[Modified by: Mahmood Al-Yousif (mahmood) on September 20, 2004 05:18 PM]
Pay No attention to the Man behind the Curtain
Regarding Steve,
As the fabled neo-con that he is, I thought I would have taken more flak about the streets of Baghdad than about American diplomacy.
Or about Ollie North, or other “indiscretions” on my part. From some of our earlier banter, I will admit to using “cartoonish caricature”, which are based on truth, but not on the whole truth. Again, every time I log into mahmmod.tv, I am greeted with the the tagline which says
[quote]intelligent, informative and fun![/quote]
I didn’t necessarily feel much like it after Beslan.
However, sometimes it really amuses me, how we can get such a rise out of Steve. It almost encourages me.
It’s one thing to make a comment that is blatantly false, it’s a whole new matter when you’re talking about value judgments. Steve has a wonderful image of the United States and, God bless him, he will defend it with his honor and his blood. Good on him, too!
I don’t need to repeat any of the arguments made earlier, many of them very accurate and cogent. None of us here are trying to get patriotic Americans to burn the Declaration of Independance, or the Constitution or the Old Glory.
I have seen unjustified arguments against America shot down on this site, as well as unjustified arguments against Arabs. However, you’re just making a fool of yourself if you believe that there is NO UNJUSTIFIED argument against your camp, ever. That’s plain being smug and arrogant, neither of which are virtuous, much less patriotic values.
I agree with Steve, take credit where credit is due and take blame where blame is due.
All In on the Pocket Aces
Steve,
One: The Muslims who post here are individuals. They are not responsible for what other Muslims may say or do. Also, saying things to them that you’d like to say to Muslims who have offended you does no good. It’s not like they can pass the message along.
Two: I’m sure you’ve noticed that everyone who posts at this site is quite comfortable with English, even those who learned it as a second or third language. It’s obvious that no matter where they’re from, the non-Americans here know a lot about America and Americans already — certainly much more than we know about them.
As I see it, if anyone’s ignorant and at a disadvantage here, it’s us Americans.
Joan from Jersey City, New Jersey
[Modified by: jerseycityjoan (jerseycityjoan) on September 20, 2004 01:16 PM]
America the Elephant
We all know that elephants are the biggest animals in the forest. They are herbivores who eat only twigs, berries, grasses, etc. They are good-tempered, benign creatures who happen to weight up to 13,000 lbs. And yet ask yourself: can any other creature love the elephant wholeheartedly? It is so big, wherever it goes it crushes something, often without being aware of it. It is so big, it cannot help but inspire fear, even in its best friends.
We have to acknowledge that America the Elephant is not quite as benign as the elephant in the forest. For example, we have to admit that sometimes we have hurt others on purpose. So we have to accept that the other animals won’t always love us. Because we’ve caused damage before, some people will always blame us anytime something bad happens. Rumors and jealousy will sometimes hurt our good reputation. Parasites will attach themselves to us.
That’s the nature of life in the forest, though. Elephants have a pretty good life afer all, they should be grateful they have so little to complain about.
Re: All In on the Pocket Aces
[quote]Russia is one of those established worldly powers BT admires[/quote]
Easy there, Chiba. I don’t know what you’ve read that would paint me as a pinko-commie. Oh that’s right, I side with American liberals! Silly me!
Dude, I am not here to split hairs on America’s diplomatic record. Really, the only counter to my argument Steve, is that America has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING left to learn in terms of world diplomacy. I believe the burden of proof is left on you, in that regard. What say you about that?
John
All In on the Pocket Aces
Steve ..
I remember right after 9-11 when I was sitting with a bunch of friends and the subject of Saudi Arabia came up. And I remember vigorously defending the Saudis – quite blindly too, if I may add. Someone turned to me and said that I was in denial. And looking back, I was.
I didn’t want to deal with the fact that the deep rooted flaws that existed in the fabric of the Kingdom had given birth to 9-11 and the aftermath. It meant that we didn’t have time. It meant that the problem was so far deep rooted that it would take a real concerted effort to turn the tide. It meant that we had to go head to head with militant Islam. It meant that we had a cultural civil war going on in that was going to define ‘who we were’.
You will notice that I used the word ‘We’. Because in my mind, the Gulf was one.
Three years later, my persepctive has changed. I differentiate between Saudi Arabia and Bahrain and the rest of the GCC states. I differentiate between the different battles for the soul of Islam, (the most recent one being in Najaf for the Shia leadership). I differentiate between the patriarchial resistance to women’s rights and the religious oppositon.
The situation here is not very simple. And there is a lot to understand first before actually being able to criticize fairly. And as we have seen, there is quite a significant amoutn to criticize. The failure to transalate the Oil Wealth into a higher GNP/local capita for one! The failure to provide a better future for our kids than we have. The failuret to innovate our education system to reflect what is happeneing out there in the world.
But, let me tell you, if I were to sit today with a bunch of Americans who would ‘casually negatively’ point a finger without fully thinking through their criticism, then I would be upset too. But Steve, it happens all the time. The amount of flak I get when I am in the States about women’s rights. And, I have to sit there and explain that the battle for women’s rights has nothing to do with women, but it has to do with who is responsible for legislating family affairs .. (Sharia? Or the State?)
So, the best way to deal with criticism is to actually listen to what is being said, examine whether there is a kernel of truth, question the root of that criticism , and then respond accordingly.
In order to understand something deeply enough to be able to criticize it, one as to ensure that there are no perception issues or misunderstanding. We have to have a measure of what is effective and what is not, in order to say that x didnt measure up.
Most of the criticism you hear on America is that of double standards. Most of it revolves around Israel. I ak convinced that if America ever came out point blank and said that come hell or high water, Israel would always be a ‘protectorate’ of the US, 3/4 of the criticism of double standards would fall. Why? Because the US would stop trying to treat the rest of the world like idiots and cloak what they are doing under an idealistic cloak of doing the right thing. The hypocracy comes from saying one thing and doing another. And beleive me, as Arabs, we are very in tune to hypocracy because we live it socially almost every day of our lives!
America has lost a significant amount of its moral standing globally in the past couple of years. Maybe America needs to communicate things more effectively to a global audience that is more sophisticated in global politics than rural America. When the US president speaks on TV, I would probably bet that more people watch outside the US than inside. He is speaking to the world.
My own honest assesment about America? She is really at a crossroads right now – what kind of country does she want to become. She has always been relatively isolationist, and could afford to have her foreign poicy being determine by a few people in Washington DC. No more. 9-11 brought the world to her, and not in the kindest way possible. So, American is being faces by a challenge. The Patriot Act may have been needed in some ways, but it reminded me of the classic Arab response to external threats – close the borders. Thats what we did in Bahrain with Iran post 1979, and look what has happened to our economy. In retrospect, it wasnt the right thing to do, nor the wisest. I have never seen America as divided about who they are as they have been in this election. From the outside, there does not seem to be much difference between Kerry and Bush. ANd I doubt that either one of them will really change their foriegn policy that much. But, what I am hoping for is that they way that they communicate changes. America really does have to mend its ties with the rest of the world, and it would be nice to see her reclaim her moral ground. But, she will now have to earn it. The hard way.
As for us in l’il old small Bahrain … all we can do is plod through the state of affairs that we have to unravel and try and forge a better way forward. And, we will get by with a little help from our friends .. (PM and Bonsaimark).
Steve, I really really suggest that you come out here for a couple of weeks and move around talking to th average person. You once said that you continously get recruited to work in Aramco. Take them up on an interview offer and come and spend time in Bahrain .. you will be able to pick up alot more on people’s mind sets by talking to them personally than you ever will from a blog. And, you may be surprised that the current conventonal wisdom in Washington of the Arab Street is neither conventional, nor wise.
(And you gotta try those shawarmas too …)
Re(5): Oh Steve … i thought we were getting somewhere
Mahmood, I agree with you that the USA has been, and continues to be a force for progress around the world. But I think we all have this tendency to expect America to pay for everything we need, and fight for everything we want. It has made us all a little too cosy and secure. It has also let the other major powers (EU, Japan, China, Arab League ) off the hook when they ought to be sorting out regional crises. We have reached a passive acceptance of the lethargy and misconduct of the UN, while genocide is demonstrably going on. And we got away with all this for years, because the USA could always be relied upon to step in and clean up the mess.
Meggie
Re(6): Oh Steve … i thought we were getting somewhere
Meggie ..
I dont think that we can really discuss this topic without looking at what America actively does to reinforce and maintain her role as an economic global superpower … the politics follows the economics .. so, does America foot the bill alone? I doubt it. I think she gets paid in kind quite well. (Look at defense spending and how much of it is spent on US products).
And, for those who talk about the UN, I remember reading once that the US has not paid its dues for a while .. Didnt Ted Turner donate a significant amount at one point?
So, maybe we need to dig a little bit deeper and look into the real state of affairs. As Henry Kissinger once said, there are no permanent friends nor permanent enemies .. just permanent interests.
Long Love the Capitalist Machine .. 😉
Re(6): Oh Steve … i thought we were getting somewhere
Meggie ..
I dont think that we can really discuss this topic without looking at what America actively does to reinforce and maintain her role as an economic global superpower … the politics follows the economics .. so, does America foot the bill alone? I doubt it. I think she gets paid in kind quite well. (Look at defense spending and how much of it is spent on US products).
And, for those who talk about the UN, I remember reading once that the US has not paid its dues for a while .. Didnt Ted Turner donate a significant amount at one point?
So, maybe we need to dig a little bit deeper and look into the real state of affairs. As Henry Kissinger once said, there are no permanent friends nor permanent enemies .. just permanent interests.
Long Live the Capitalist Machine .. 😉
Re(4): Oh Steve … i thought we were getting somewhere
Boojum, even though I’m often quick to criticize the US, I totally understand the way you feel.. that you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Unfortunately there is no way out of it. No matter what the US does it will always be criticized someone. Therefore, you must stop worrying about your image, and whether you will be criticized, and instead continue doing what is right; for at the end of the day that is what matters most… not whether a stupid blogger in Bahrain called Chan’ad said something good or bad about the US.
Unfortunately, in the real world, morals do not usually have the highest priority in determining foreign policy. But still, we can keep trying.
Chan’ad
Re(7): Oh Steve … i thought we were getting somewhere
Well JJ I take your point, both the USA and Europe do a great deal of overseas business in the defence sector. But the customers availing themselves of these goodies are paying for them mainly out of grants provided by the USA and EU in the first place, backed up by export credit guarrantees from those same governments. So in that respect, the west gets some of her own money back, in the form of export orders. I don’t call that payment in kind.
And so long as the UN is failing as miserably as it is at present, I would propose that none of us should be paying our dues. Dues are only due for services rendered. Right now the UN is worth less than the space they waste in Manhattan.
By all means keep digging JJ, let us drag the US foreign aid budgets into the cold grey light of morning, and stare at them until we go crinkly with embarassment. Because that isn’t Ted Turner’s money. It is Joe Taxpayer’s money and it was taken from his wages by the IRS, to be given to more “deserving” folk.
Enjoy!!
Meggie
Re(2): Oh Steve … i thought we were getting somewhere
Steve, if I’m reading this correctly, the USA-bashing is getting you down. I can well understand that.
I don’t see much of that diatribe here though. I reckon most of the regulars here are much more thoughtful than that.
But I can not help wondering if the experience of recent years will instigate a spread of isolationist sentiment among the American public? Do you see any stirrings of that at present?
The temptation, for the ordinary taxpayer, to stop outscourcing jobs, stop immigration, and stop spending blood and treasure abroad must be considerable.
Meggie
Re(1): All In on the Pocket Aces
Hi Steve,
Let us not forget the other prevalent misconception about the USA. That all Americans are wealthy, and live cosy pampered lives, while the rest of us labour, scrimp and save.
It is indeed strange to hear this voiced in England, where state welfare benefits provide incomes, housing, and medical needs. And where those in work are entitled to 25 days paid annual leave.
(By the way, thanks for recognising our collective brilliance. I’d like to propose a vote of thanks to our parents for making us all possible.)
Meggie
All My Comments Were About Posters Here
I’m surprised you thought I was making any generalizations; I specifically said that I was referring to people who post here.
As I said before, I think the Muslim people who post here are quite knowledgable about the English language, America and Americans. They know far more about us and our ways than we do about them.
I think one of the reasons the Muslim posters come here is to let people in America, Canada, England, etc., etc., get to know them better. They go out of their way to explain themselves to us, and have been candid and frank even when it hurt. I am touched that they make this effort for people they don’t know and will never meet. I think their courtesy deserves respect and should be reciprocated, don’t you?
Re(1): All In on the Pocket Aces
That’s a straw man argument, John. I have made no such argument that America has nothing to learn about world diplomacy. What I am arguing against is your position that America has EVERYTHING to learn about world diplomacy.
Steve
[Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on September 20, 2004 11:38 PM]
Re: All In on the Pocket Aces
I disagree that the answer to the world’s ills is to “share our abundance.” There is an infinite demand for free American dollars. Paying people for the bad practices which impoverish them simply fixes those practices in place. It is far better to teach them how to create their own abundance.
There is no shortage of capital or know-how or entrepreneurial spirit in the undeveloped world to better themselves. What’s needed most are simple changes (though difficult to implement) that allow people clear title to their property, simplified laws to establish businesses, fair and predictable legal processes, detailed law regarding the establishment of corporations, et cetera.
In short, instead of giving them fish, teach them to fish.
Steve
Re(3): Oh Steve … i thought we were getting somewhere
There is an undying isolationist sentiment in America’s DNA, the idea that the rest of the world is so screwed up that we are better off shutting out their nonsense, their endless wars, their religious prejudices, their knucklehead political philosophies.
It is an impossible position. America produces far more than she needs, can not help but export the surplus, and that trade out mandates trade in. We are an open society, which naturally encourages the exchange of people and ideas. We are a nation of immigrants with unbreakable ties to the larger world. Above all that, we are the only superpower. If the world goes seriously awry, we are the only ones who can fix it.
Isolation is an impossible day dream for Americans. We are engaged with the world and can not disengage from it.
The current internal criticism of outsourcing panders to the economic illiterate. It is in America’s interest to make use of cheaper foreign labor. There is no way you can ignore or block cheap labor without doing harm to yourself. And the ordinary citizen doesn’t understand that even in the mercantilist sense, foreign countries outsource more jobs to specialized American labor than we outsource to them for cheap commodity labor.
We’ll never stop immigration. It’s an entrenched part of America. We are all immigrants. Denying immigrants is denying ourselves and our immigrant grandparents. We certainly should constrain immigration from hostile populations, though.
The war in Iraq is costing us in blood and money. We’ve lost a thousand good guys in Iraq, but that’s only one third the dead of Sep 11. We lost about a thousand dead per month in the Pacific theater of WWII. I’ve heard a figure of $200 billion for the cost of the war in Iraq. That’s roughly the direct and indirect cost of the Sep 11 attacks. The cost of Iraq seems expensive only if you don’t consider the cost of the alternative: further attacks in the American homeland.
Steve
Re(5): Oh Steve … i thought we were getting somewhere
Mahmood,
One third of the people in Germany and France believe America attacked itself on Sep 11. Both countries have made a best-seller out of a book that claims that the Pentagon attacked itself with a robot plane or a missile on Sep 11. The book claims no plane hit the Pentagon at all. Mahmood, I know three people who saw it. That’s three out of thousands of witnesses.
These are countries we saved in WWII. You’d think at the least they would feel some human gratitude, that they would keep criticism of America confined to the rational, at least. And vast swatches of the Muslim world follow the lead of such European dolts.
It’s like that old monster movie, The Blob, where this big pudding-like mass just overwhelms everything, houses, cars, streets, trains. Some days, I feel like we are fighting a big blob of stupidity overwhelming the world with Really Bad Ideas. The Blob moves on, impervious to reason or facts.
Steve
Re: All In on the Pocket Aces
Joan,
You are not talking to a representative sample of the foreign world here. These people are the elite of their countries, the cream. If you think that foreigners in general are more informed about America than Americans are about the world, you need to meet more foreigners. You may be surprised to find that only a few come equipped with Western graduate degrees. You have mistakenly overgeneralized the intellect of these few elite to the whole Middle Eastern population.
In a relatively advanced Arab country like Egypt, only 60% of the adult population can read. I doubt they know more about America than we know about Egypt. Millions of Americans from all over the country see the world first hand in the military. There is no such vehicle to see the world available to the people of the undeveloped world. When I lived in the Philippines, many Philippinoes could not give me directions to the next village ten miles down the road because they had not travelled that far. They were not spending their nights writing their dissertations in international relations.
Based on my own travel and experience, most foreigners are not well-informed about America but rather range from a cliched view of America drawn from Hollywood movies (“Chicago! Bang! Bang!”) to an aggressively disinformed view based on crazy propaganda. Only a minority have actually made the trek to America for more than a vacation to study or do business here. The people you are talking with are among that select few.
Steve
Re: All My Comments Were About Posters Here
Hi Joan,
As an American Muslimah in the Gulf, I must say that my own experience confirms what you have posted. As a whole, I do think Arabs & Muslims know more about Americans than vice versa. But it still isn’t enough, so exchanges like this one are crucial. And when we meet nice, respectful folks like you, it makes it much easier to be honest and open.
Also let me say that while I come to this site for the chance to participate in this Muslim/non-Muslim dialogue, I gain so much from meeting other progressive Muslims who understand the challanges we are facing in the world today. It’s nice to be around people who want to discuss and debate — not destabilize and destroy 😉
Take care, Joan.
Salaam,
PM
Re: All In on the Pocket Aces
[quote]The Patriot Act may have been needed in some ways, but it reminded me of the classic Arab response to external threats – close the borders. Thats what we did in Bahrain with Iran post 1979, and look what has happened to our economy. In retrospect, it wasnt the right thing to do, nor the wisest. [/quote]
Jasra, my dear, you are being sucked into the liberal hysteria about the Patriot Act, which was necessary to defend against the Islamist invaders. May I point out that the government has not even used some of the provisions. American liberals have been screaming about the FBI snooping through the reading lists of Americans in their libraries. However, not one subpoena has been issued to inspect the library records of anyone under the Patriot Act. There is also a provision of the Act to sue the government if it has overstepped. Not one such suit has been lodged, and its not like our liberals are not litigious. They can’t find a case to sue. The argument against the Patriot Act is groundless.
[quote]I have never seen America as divided about who they are as they have been in this election. From the outside, there does not seem to be much difference between Kerry and Bush. ANd I doubt that either one of them will really change their foriegn policy that much. But, what I am hoping for is that they way that they communicate changes. America really does have to mend its ties with the rest of the world, and it would be nice to see her reclaim her moral ground. But, she will now have to earn it. The hard way.[/quote]
There will be a big difference for Iraqis if Kerry is elected. He promises to start withdrawing troops within a year and have the bulk of them out within his term. That will lead to a bloodbath in Iraq and encourage the Wahhabi terrorists to do their worst.
So far Kerry hasn’t done a very good job of endearing us to our allies, whom he publicly reviles as fradulent, among other things. Like much that Kerry does, he says one thing, does another.
I disagree that America has lost its moral authority. We just removed an evil dictator in Iraq who was killing his people by the hundreds of thousands. In my view, the world, in the form of the UN, lost its moral authority when it refuses to enforce the eighteen or so resolutions regarding Iraq. It just wasn’t serious about confronting evil. Rather than America descending to the mediocre moral standard of the world, the world needs to rise up to America’s standard.
Steve
PS. Thank you for the invitation.
Re: America the Elephant
Joan,
If your country just had an earthquake or flood or drought, America is going to be the first one to land C-130s full of emergency supplies. The only nations we hurt on purpose had it coming.
Steve
Re: Pay No attention to the Man behind the Curtain
If you agree with me, then you are obviously a dangerous extremist.
Steve
Re(6): Oh Steve … i thought we were getting somewhere
I know how frustrating it is. I am surprised that such a high proportion of Germany and France believe that, had it been the Arabs we would have said denial!
As for gratitude, you’ll probably find that most of those who think like this are a new generation who view WWII through a smokescreen, something so far removed that they have blocked it out altogether. Says something about their education system I guess.
Said as it is
I have enjoyed very much reading the comments of educated Arabs, I needed something balance against the stupid ignorance of the Jihad crowd and I just want to thank you for restoring my faith in people.
In a previous post I said that America wants to do good, that is so true of the people of America and if some of their leader fall from that high ideal well that is the way of the world. I got a bit or sarcasm from JJ, but I was pleased to Mahmood agreeing with that, if I read it right of course.
As a European, but more importantly a Brit, I have a very good understanding of the USA, I happened to have worked for an American company and travelled there quite often, up until I was made redundant, working for an American reinsurance company around 9/11 was never going to be a long term position. I was in Hartford a week after 9/11 and I comforted a women who lost her daughter, who asked me why?
From my point of view America can be brash and arrogant, the Arab world is blaming everyone but themselves for their ills and the Europeans hanging on to past glories and their status is just well sad.
The Arab world hangs on to Israel as the reason that the USA is the great Satan. There are many reasons that Israel is supported by the USA, but that it is a democracy in a sea of dictatorships just not help.
Finally I can not believe that 30% of the French and the Germans think that America bombed itself, they must have been taking the mick.
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