A survey of Muslim views over the past weeks shows overwhelming, though not unanimous, condemnation of the Beslan massacre. But in all cases the reasons given for the condemnation are political rather than religious. Muslim commentators assert that Russia, having supported “the Palestinian cause,” did not deserve such treatment.
Sheik Yussuf al-Qaradawi, a Sunni Muslim scholar based in Qatar, was among the first to condemn the Beslan massacre. At the same time, however, he insists that a similar attack on Israeli schools would be justified because Israeli schoolchildren, if not killed, could grow up to become soldiers. (Sheik Qaradawi also justifies the killing of unborn Israelis because, if born, they could become soldiers.)
What an asshole! If this guy accepts that Allah is one, and ALL people are his creation, isn’t it time that he accepts that Jews, Muslims, Christians, Budist, and yes even Athiests are all his creations and as such should be cherished and protected?
Flip-flopper that this guy is, I’m not too concerned.
Let’s light up the pyre in his honour!
Comments
comments
no worries Carl, thank you very much for the help. At least now we can actually see each comment entered rather than have to search through hundreds to find anything with children and click on that in the hope that that what’s we’re looking for!
Light up the Pyre
Boy I have slipped in my duties as the chief Qaradawi watcher! Thanks for catching this Mahmood.
This guy is such a skeezy charlaton and it galls me that he is even here as a guest of this country and that he uses his forum at Omar bin Khattab Masjid to promote his anti-reconciliation/anti-peace/anti-West agenda. Frankly, I have always been convinced that they keep him around to placate the turbanned crowd. After all, he is quite aged and in declining health… need I say more? Of course, as a good Muslimah I don’t want to say too much more;)
Anyway, bottom line is that NO MUSLIM SHOULD JUSTIFY ATTACKS ON CHILDREN AND WILL SURELY SPEND SOME TIME IN THE “CRISPER” FOR DOING SO!!! Grrrrrrrrrr!!!!
(deep breath)
Salaam Alaikum,
PM
Light up the Pyre
Strange reading this today. A few hours ago I was having a heated debate with a Muslim friend of mine who told me that the Beslan massacre was entirely the fault of the Russians “because they stormed the building”. I’m still feeling quite shocked by that conversation.
Light up the Pyre
That is the creep who was welcomed to London by Mayor Ken Livingston just recently, despite the prior protests of gay activists, among others. I just don’t understand what the British left wing think they are doing anymore.
It is quite a paradox, that the current world situation has inexplicably somewhat reconciled me with a Christian clergy that I have repudiated and lampooned for 40 years. I never heard anything harmful, or hostile, or sectarian from them, and grew up in England thinking this was normal.
Did you ever see those olde fashioned maps of the world, in all of their quaint and archaic splendour? They included the aspects which were significant at that time. The Sargasso Sea, the Trade Winds, the Roaring Forties, Horse Latitudes…
And there was one more..
… “Here be monsters”….
so don’t go there. Unless of course, that is where you happen to live.
Meggie
Light up the Pyre
Meggie,
I do happen to live where this schmuck is located. But it’s a funny thing…. Qaradawi is egotistical enough to fancy himself an international media star so we actually have very little interference from him here in Qatar. Reforms move ahead, society progresses and he goes about preaching his hate on international TV and in foreign speaking engagements.
Of course, I do feel bad for the poison he carries with him wherever he goes. 🙁
And Ash, your friend sounds like he is simply a “political muslim” — one who can justify un-Islamic behavior to promote a political agenda. One can do that if they choose, but they cannot justify it Islamically.
Salaam,
PM
Light up the Pyre
Thanks, PM. Yes, he’s definitely a “political Muslim” and he’s got a lot worse over the past year, so much so that I can’t see myself staying friends with him any more. When people start justifying or excusing things like Beslan (or any other atrocity), they are just too far gone to reach. It’s like talking to a madman.
Re: Light up the Pyre
Modern Cartographical Version:
“Here be some schmuck of a guy. Keep hold of your wallet”
How does that sound PM?
Meggie
Re(1): Light up the Pyre
Perfect Meggie! 🙂
You must be in a creative field. You express yourself so wonderfully and I always enjoy reading your posts.
Take care & salaam,
PM
Re: Light up the Pyre
I understand your feelings, Ash, and could not tolerate people saying some of the things I read on the internet. Al hamdulillah, here in Qatar ( and in my uni, specifically), I simply don’t encounter people that think this way. And I like to think — maybe too naively at times — that universities are the places where societies’ transformations can first be seen. That helps me to stay positive.
I wonder if you are located in the West because I see this “political Islam” among many young Muslim men and women there. In many ways, I think it is their way of trying to reclaim their “muslimness” which they might feel they are compromising or even selling out. I think they often feel spiritually disconnected from Islam and make up for it by following the most strident of the turbanned crowd. At least I have had first-hand experience with some who fit in this category ….
Insha’Allah your friend will reflect upon the spirituality of our religion and then may be able to find more politically constructive ways to deal with the problems in the world. But I can’t blame you for questioning a friendship with one who is so callous and warped as to place the blame of events in Beslan on anybody but the terrorists. 🙁
Nice to have you around, Ash.
Salaam,
PM
Light up the Pyre
I don’t understand that bit about a ‘survey of muslims’ because I seem to remember reading on this blog that good polling doesn’t exist in the ME and that it hamstrings the news media there. Every once in a while I’ll read about an ‘opinion survey’ in Iraq and I’ll think, “How in the hell could you conduct an accurate poll in Iraq?”
Re: Light up the Pyre
Yet they do. And we are not talking about a single deranged cleric here and there. This is a pervasive view promoted by the Wahhabis and accepted by many Muslims the world over. And when he passes away, there will be another Muslim cleric with equally degenerate views to replace him.
When you compare the Muslim world to other major religions, you just don’t see this kind of inhuman hatred. The other major world religions are pacifist. Islam, by contrast, seeks to propagate itself through violence of the worst kind. In my view, this makes Islam morally inferior to the other major religions.
I wonder what the moral bottom is for the Muslim fundamentalists. Murder in the name of Islam doesn’t seem to upset many Muslims. Decapitations for the faith are not condemned. Most Muslims seem to accept, many even celebrate, cutting the heads of infidels. Raping the teenaged Russian captives in Beslan did not merit any condemnation that I have read in the Muslim world. It wasn’t until the Muslim jihadis started shooting escaping children in the back at Beslan that there appeared to be some genuine outrage in the Muslim world. That outrage did not carry over into action, but at least lip service was paid to the immorality of the heinous crime.
What evil will Muslims not do for their religion? I don’t know the answer. There seems to be no moral bottom for Muslim fundamentalists. I would think that cannibalism might be the bottom, but then I recall that after Muslim radicals killed one Egyptian official, they lapped up his blood on the floor of the hotel lobby where they shot him. So that is no moral barrier either.
I am also struck by the low moral quality of those objections made to the Muslim back-shooters of Beslan. Of those Muslims who found this offensive, most of them objected on the grounds that it hurt Islam and was counterproductive. This is the self-centered moral reasoning of children who can think no further than their own selfish interest. What I did not see is an objection by Muslim leaders based on global principles, that killing anyone to propagate your religion is evil. Their objections to the Beslan atrocity were conditional.
From where I sit here in Virginia, it looks like the Muslim world supports terror, though not uniformly. Certainly there is an evil center of Islam in Saudi Arabia which has declared war on the whole world and will do murder to the limit of its capability. Thankfully, their competence is severely limited. There is a small minority of Muslims who actively support this worldwide war of terror against the civilized world. It appears that the majority of the Muslim world passively supports the violent jihad. They may not strap on a suicide belt themselves but they admire those who do and are pleased to slip them a dinar or two. Most of the remainder are indifferent to the murder of infidels. Only a small minority of Muslims seem to have legitimate moral objections to Islamic terror, but they can at best only whisper their objections for fear of reprisal.
We in America have not declared war on Islam but Wahhabi Islam has declared war on us. This Wahhabi death cult is a cancer on world civilization that must be extirpated. As long as Saudi Arabia exists, it will continue to preach hatred and fund terror against America and the world. If we are to be safe in our homes, in our schools, riding a train or flying a plane, we have to take the jihad back to Saudi Arabia where all this evil originates. Only when Saudi Arabia is destroyed will our children be safe to play on a school playground without evil Wahhabis shooting them in the back.
Steve
Light up the Pyre
Speaking as a follower of a non-Muslim religion (and an American) I’d like to apologize for Steve’s remarks. Not all of us believe that Islam is inferior to other religions or that it is inherently violent. I would like to just refer to one tiny incident in the history of Christianity – the Crusades – to note that not only Muslims have used their religion to justify violence against others. I would also mention that in the Hebrew Bible one can find justifications for war against others, and even for genocide. There is terrible violence in India, inflicted by fundamentalist Hindus against Muslims. Need I go through all the possible examples? We are all human and are thus capable of (mis)using our religions to hate and destroy each other. I just hope that somehow God will forgive us for the ways in which we take his name in vain.
Re(1): Light up the Pyre
PM, I note your interest on Muslim communities here in the west. In my opinion this is the critical interface at which the relationship between the two cultures will be made or broken. And here in the UK, it is not looking good.
I am no psychologist or sociologist, but I do occasionally read the papers they publish on their research. Recently a study into the backgrounds of known terrorists was conducted. Surprisingly, the poor, downtrodden, and backward are singularly under-represented among the jihadists. Whereas the well-off, university educated, young Muslim male, with a significant exposure to western life, is a typical candidate for al qaeda. Sadly, that last sentence applies broadly to a major section of young British Muslims.
I dread to think what’s waiting for us, but the day they decide to unleash hell on us, it will be big, shocking, and awful.
Then we will get the news that the folk who did it were born here.
Meggie
Re: Light up the Pyre
[quote]Qaradawi is egotistical enough to fancy himself an international media star so we actually have very little interference from him here in Qatar.[/quote]
PM,
It’s a classic case of
Better the camel in the tent, pissing out, than the other way around.
BT
Light up the Pyre
When religion and politics mix, you create a volatile cocktail, which prevents rational thoughts from residing in the brain. Mahmood are there clerics who are preaching peace and reconciliation within the Middle East? Do they get the same press coverage?
When this Sheik suggests that killing of innocence life is O.K., he diminishes his creditability as both a religious leader and political leader. How does advocating violence as a political tool further the Palestinian cause? Who is paying the price for the perpetual war in Middle East? How many kids and other innocents have died because the political leaders are unwilling to compromise or find solutions to allow peace and reconciliation?
Re(2): Light up the Pyre
I’m also in the UK, and I agree with your assessment Meggie. I’m also concerned about the likely violent backlash against Muslims in Britain in the aftermath of a major terrorist attack. I suspect that it will be very nasty indeed, something that a few years ago I would never have thought to worry about here.
Re(1): Light up the Pyre
Someone is upset today!
Steve sweetheart .. one of the problems in your post is that even if Saudi Arabia were destroyed completely today, there would still be idiots in Iraq kidnapping and killing in the name of Islam.
If you really want to be safe in your homes, you might want to think a little bit before launching ideological wars in other countries without enough troops and without a plan for peace. If there had been some premeditation and preplanning, perhaps the Wahabbis would have never entered Iraq in the manner that they did, nor would they have grown in the numbers that they are growing. Maybe more troops guarding the borders?
I will accept your premise that Saudi sponsored Wahabbism is a leading contributer to militant Islam. You have to accept mine that the previous US foriegn policy in Afghanistan was also a leading contributer when the training of the mujahideen was justified agasint the ‘godless’ Russians.
Steve .. the problem in the Moslem world today is all of our responsability. As a liberal moslem, I am as responsible for not taking on these mullahs who preach hate as you are for not taking on the Pentagon who preached relative ignorance (re not having a bona fide plan for peace in Iraq.)
Anyways, the die have been rolled and we are all watching history unfold. And as we all know, history is doomed to repeat itself if we dont learn from it ..
Re(1): Light up the Pyre
[i]We in America have not declared war on Islam but Wahhabi Islam has declared war on us. This Wahhabi death cult is a cancer on world civilization that must be extirpated.[/i]
I’d argue that Wahhabi Islam has not declared war on the US any more than Shiite Islam took the hostages in Iran in 1979. It is individuals and groups
Extirpated? Not necessarily. Changed into something peaceful.
A Jordanian woman writing on another BB points out that OBL and Al Qeada have little popular support compared with groups like Hamas and Jihad. People might cheer for what happened on 9/11 but it’s what happens in their neighborhood which they really care about.
And Hamas/Jihad have not taken the terror war global. Only Al Qaeda and it’s affiliates have.
Re(2): Light up the Pyre
I’m an American living in the UK and I remember 9/11 very well. When the second building fell I walked out of the TV room in shock, not knowing what to think. There were many kind expressions from my British colleagues but what I remember was the Muslims said. One told me ‘you had it coming. America deserved it’ with the apparent agreement of two others. Then a joke that there would be no reponse. The US would ‘file suit’ at the International Court. We were too weakminded to respond. These guys were Pakistanis born in the UK I think.
I have to say that a number of other Muslims were shocked and disgusted with 9/11.
Re(2): Light up the Pyre
[quote]I’d argue that Wahhabi Islam has not declared war on the US any more than Shiite Islam took the hostages in Iran in 1979. It is individuals and groups [/quote]
Wahhabi clerics have preached jihad against America from the Great Mosque at Mecca which is televised by Saudi-government owned stations. They are also preach jihad against America in smaller mosques and in their print media. How can you explain that away?
[quote]Extirpated? Not necessarily. Changed into something peaceful. [/quote]
Wahhabi Islam has a two hundred plus year history of exterminating infidels. As it turns out, anyone who is not Wahhabi is an infidel, including Muslims favoring the wrong flavor of Islam. This murderous intolerance of every other creed is part of the identity of the Wahhabis. You have as much chance of changing a rattlesnake into a rabbit as you would changing a Wahhabi into a Quaker.
[quote]A Jordanian woman writing on another BB points out that OBL and Al Qeada have little popular support compared with groups like Hamas and Jihad. People might cheer for what happened on 9/11 but it’s what happens in their neighborhood which they really care about. [/quote]
A poll by the Saudis after the Sep 11 atrocity showed more than 90% support for Bin Laden. A recent poll showed half the Saudis support Bin Laden. At the government level, the Saudis still resist our efforts to investigate the Sep 11 attack. They drag their feet to cut off financial support for Al Qaeda and its affiliates.
[quote]And Hamas/Jihad have not taken the terror war global. Only Al Qaeda and it’s affiliates have. [/quote]
Not quite so. Wahhabi missionary activity is the consistent theme behind the terror attacks around the world, not Al Qaeda. The doctrine and money to plan bombings, buy bomb materials, and plant them always leads back to Saudi Arabia and its despicable Wahhabi clergy. Al Qaeda is but one snake on the Wahhabi Medusa.
Steve
Light up the Pyre
[i]What an asshole! If this guy accepts that Allah is one, and ALL people are his creation, isn’t it time that he accepts that Jews, Muslims, Christians, Budist, and yes even Athiests are all his creations and as such should be cherished and protected? [/i]
Yes. Not to mention thatif the Israelis used this idea it could ‘justify’ bombing of schools on the West Bank and Gaza on the grounds that they could be future suicide bombers. If we have any ethics I think we must hope and trust that they will not.
To that end I think the wall is a better solution. It’s horrible for any number of reasons. But less horrible.
Re(2): Light up the Pyre
[quote]Steve sweetheart .. one of the problems in your post is that even if Saudi Arabia were destroyed completely today, there would still be idiots in Iraq kidnapping and killing in the name of Islam. [/quote]
Jasra, my precious buttercup, those idiots are sustained by Saudi money. The estimate is that 70% of the insurgent attacks are bought and paid for. In other words, the insurgent organizers pay local dopes to fire an RPG at a Humvee full of GIs or do a drive by shooting of civilians working for the Iraqi government. The money also buys weapons and other essential gear. When that money dries up, much of the insurgency will wither away.
We should make more effort to identify the individual Saudi sources of cash for terror in general and assassinate them.
[quote]If you really want to be safe in your homes, you might want to think a little bit before launching ideological wars in other countries without enough troops and without a plan for peace. If there had been some premeditation and preplanning, perhaps the Wahabbis would have never entered Iraq in the manner that they did, nor would they have grown in the numbers that they are growing. Maybe more troops guarding the borders? [/quote]
Jasra, may I point out that Iraq is the aggressor in this conflict? It was Iraq that invaded Kuwait and laid waste to it and its people. Even after a generous peace was imposed on a defeated Iraq, Saddam was belligerent, moving his troops aggressively to the border of Kuwait when the US eased up and firing upon our jets patrolling the no fly zones in more than six hundred incidents. Was the UN imposing its ideology when it made eighteen resolutions to curb Iraq’s aggressive behavior, all of them ignored by Saddam?
The plan for peace in Iraq is to win. There was plenty of preplanning for the peace before the war ever began. The activity of the postwar study groups, of which there were about seventy as I recall, were published in the Washington Post, among other media.
There are plenty of US troops in Iraq to deal with the insurgency. There are at most 5000 insurgents in a country of about 26 million Iraqis. We have 133,000 GIs deployed to Iraq along with 23,500 other troops from other countries for a total of 156,500 troops. That’s 30 good guys for every bad guy. That’s more than plenty. Tossing more troops in Iraq would just make more targets for the insurgents without adding any advantage.
If we wanted to post one GI every one hundred yards along the 2304 mile Iraqi border, it would take nearly 41,000 troops. Of course, it would take far more than that to effectively guard the border as you would need reserves in place to deal with incursions. And in the end, this kind of Maginot Line strategy is doomed to fail.
The trick is to hit them where they gather. The advantage is ours here. Urban guerrilla movements always fail because it’s too easy for the occupying army to find them.
[quote]I will accept your premise that Saudi sponsored Wahabbism is a leading contributer to militant Islam. You have to accept mine that the previous US foriegn policy in Afghanistan was also a leading contributer when the training of the mujahideen was justified agasint the ‘godless’ Russians. [/quote]
Our support ended up with the Taliban, who were only a local problem once the Soviets were driven out. Al Qaeda’s money came from the Saudis. Without the US, there would still be Muslim fundamentalist terrorists, courtesy of the Wahhabis. I’ll admit we contributed to the problem but we didn’t create it and sustain it.
[quote]Steve .. the problem in the Moslem world today is all of our responsability. As a liberal moslem, I am as responsible for not taking on these mullahs who preach hate as you are for not taking on the Pentagon who preached relative ignorance (re not having a bona fide plan for peace in Iraq.) [/quote]
It’s not that the Pentagon is staffed with dopes but that the problem of insurgency is a difficult one for a moderate state. Saddam could contain rebellion through state terror. We can’t do that. Those moral inhibitions are a handicap in the short term struggle.
If a cancer patient fares poorly after surgeons remove a tumor, it’s not for lack of skill, intelligence, or motivation of the medical staff. Cancer is a difficult problem for even the best minds. Likewise with insurgency in an occupation. I don’t recall any neat clean solution demonstrated by any historical example. All the successful solutions to insurgencies were slow and messy.
I think things in Iraq are going as well as can be expected and my expectations are low. There is steady, though uneven and slow, progress toward creating a democracy in Iraq. We are steadily moving toward turning the government back over to Iraqis.
Steve
Re(2): Light up the Pyre
Peace Taker,
Other than the Shrinyiko cult, none of the above organizations or people carry out their terror in the name of their religion or for the pleasure of their god(s).
Re(3): Light up the Pyre
Religion is a tool of politics.
Terrorism is the use of violence to acheive political ends.
There’s not a terrorist on the planet who wouldn’t use religion if he/she thought it would advance their cause.
Sorry to be so cynical but its a fact.
The IRA are exclusivly catholic, the unionists exclusivly protestant.
It aint about religion, it’s about control.
It’s about how best, and quickest, to replace one system of control with another.
Re(3): Light up the Pyre
“Then a joke that there would be no reponse.”
Not surprising, since this was the policy of previous American administrations. Nothing was done after the Cole bombing, World Trade Center Attack 1 and Dhobar Towers attack. The African embassy bombings got a weak half-hearted response that turned out to be more laughable than threatening.
I’ll reckon your friends stopped telling that joke a few months later.
Re(4): Light up the Pyre
Dhahran Towers you meant I think.
The response by some to the 9/11 attrocity is not surprising, though sick. I tend to think of it as weak minds rooting to topple the big guy, rather than trying to find ways to peacefully find solutions and more importantly to find ways to correct their own communities and countries. It’s easier to revel in human misery to them I guess.
The silver lining as I’ve commented before though is that now every person, community, and even countries are re-evaluating everything from cultural norms, to education, to business and relationships. Something good has come out of this; not condoning the act or using it as an excuse mind you, I just tend to look at a glass half full rather than empty.
Re(4): Light up the Pyre
You’ve put the cart before the horse here – you can’t seriously believe that people just adopt a religious justification because they want to kill people.
If this is your view then you’re faced with the problematic question of why it seems so easy to choose an Islamic justification for terror? Any answers?
Light up the Pyre
Al Qaradawi is the most poisonness Islamist out there, because through gross hypocrisy he’s managed to sell himself as a “moderate”. I remember chatting with a couple of Salafi friends of mine, who looked at me in absolute incomprehension when I described him as an “extremistâ€?.
What’s great to see is him squirming in the spotlight as his vile contradictory statements are put under scrutiny. The very worst he did was in Algeria, when in the 80s the military regime there invited him because they thought they could use him to ride the Islamist tiger. Instead he paid lip service to them while campaigning for the radicalisation of Algerian society, such that by the time he packed his bags the country was on the precipice of civil war. Mission accomplished there.
There’s another report on him getting caught out supporting the murder of American civilians in Iraq on the MEMRI site (www.memri.org), which even goes so far as to highlight condemnation of him by Bahraini columnists – its nice to see them saying something worthwhile rather than indulging in arse kissing exercises.
Re(2): Light up the Pyre
Yes Meggie,
If your assessment is true — and I suspect it is, it only reinforces what I am trying to describe. By that, I mean there is a sense of being a sell-out for living in the West and enjoying it, which is then over compensated for by following the most extreme versions of Islam.
Furthermore, the wealthy or even financially stable & educated population is not the group most oppressed by the lack of democracy and equal opportunity. In many ways they have the most to lose with reforms in the ME spurred on by Western encouragement.
Do you see what I mean?
Don’t get me wrong, I think these people are very dangerous. They are as much of a threat to sensible Muslims as they are to non-Muslims. 🙁
Salaam,
PM
Re(3): Light up the Pyre
I remember my brother calling me and telling me of the first attack and that it was live on CNN. I refused to believe him, thinking that it might be a new movie promo or something. It sounded too fantastic. Who would do such a thing? But internally I just knew that the only people who would dare do something as atrocious as this must be Muslim terrorists. I went home as soon as I could and switched on CNN and sure enough, it unfolded. I was shocked, dismayed, angry, and a bunch of other emotions swirled in my mind.
Re(4): Light up the Pyre
Sorry PT, but I have to interject here. There are Catholics who are Unionist. (One well known example is Connor Cruise O’Brien.) And the Provisional IRA has a strong streak of Marxism in it’s political make-up, which many traditional Catholics in Eire find unacceptable.
However there is a sectarian aspect to life in Ulster, which folk from the rest of the UK find rather revolting.
Meggie
Re(3): Light up the Pyre
An additional factor in the West is that a proportion of its Muslim population seems to feel culturally unvalued and humiliated. These extremist guys talk about humiliation a lot and react to that feeling by becoming very antagonistic towards Western culture. It reminds me a lot of how Germany became Nazi – a deep sense of cultural shame after losing WWI and which looked for answers in an extreme ideology that told them they were superior to the people they felt had humiliated them. Humiliation and shame are very powerful emotions, especially in young men I think.
Re(2): Light up the Pyre
PT,
None of the terrorist organizations you named are acting out of religious convictions, despite your desperate attempt to affiliate them with religion, except for the Aum Shinrikyo cult. To point out some of the more foolish examples, Peru’s Shining Path was a radical revolutionary Marxist guerrilla faction of the Peruvian Communist Party. It terrorizes to install a Communist government in Peru, not to advance Catholicism as you weirdly imply. Timothy McVeigh was basically an anarchist. The Unabomber, Theodore Kaczynski, was against industrial progress. Neither had any discernible religion. And so on.
If anything, this list of secular terrorists confirms my point that Muslims retain the monopoly on religious terror in the world.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I don’t live my life in fear but rather comfortably and happily. Your notion that forthrightly identifying Islamic terrorism and its roots is an exercise in fear is also foolish. I imagine you find such facts very unsettling.
Islamic terror is not a product of Western prejudice but a real thing which exists in the real world. If I did not exist, there would still be real Muslims killing real people to establish a worldwide Islamic empire. You have gotten things exactly backwards. Islamic terror is a product of the violent prejudice of Muslims to the West and the world at large.
It’s true that I hate Muslim terrorists who slaughter infidels for the glory of Islam. Such religious murder is a hateful thing to reasonable people. It is worthy of our hate. I’m curious about your reasons for not hating such acts. From my perspective, such an indifferent attitude toward the head-cutters of Islam is the product of a degraded set of values. Perhaps you can explain why such acts elicit such a limp response from you.
Steve
Re: Light up the Pyre
[quote]I remember chatting with a couple of Salafi friends of mine, who looked at me in absolute incomprehension when I described him as an “extremist�. [/quote]
Why would Wahhabi religious extremists consider a venomous Wahhabi to be extreme? I mean really, what would a Wahhabi need to do to be considered extreme to his brethren? Is there any boundary that defines excessive behavior for Wahhabis? I don’t know of any.
Steve
Re: Light up the Pyre
[quote]I just don’t understand what the British left wing think they are doing anymore. [/quote]
Destroying Western civilization, just like the jihadis.
Steve
Re: Light up the Pyre
Why would you be shocked? In the radical Muslim mind, Muslims do no evil. It is somebody’s else’s fault, never a Muslim’s. They don’t take responsibility for their crimes.
It reminds me of the video interview with the sole surviving Palestinian terrorist of the Munich Massacre who said they never had any intention of killing any of the Jewish Olympic athletes. He blamed the murders on the Israelis for resisting and trying to escape.
Steve
Re: Light up the Pyre
[quote]When this Sheik suggests that killing of innocence life is O.K., he diminishes his creditability as both a religious leader and political leader. How does advocating violence as a political tool further the Palestinian cause? Who is paying the price for the perpetual war in Middle East? How many kids and other innocents have died because the political leaders are unwilling to compromise or find solutions to allow peace and reconciliation? [/quote]
On the contrary, he enhances his credibility as an Islamic leader to many Muslims by advocating the killing of innocent infidels. There is a large market for such violent religious intolerance in the Muslim world.
Those who advocate violence in Palestine don’t care about the Palestinians. They’re perfectly happy to let the Palestinians and Israelis chew each other up. The Palestinian leaders, like Arafat, who stoke the violence care only to preserve and enhance their own power by keeping Palestine in chaos. That way Arafat can skim all those UN bucks and Muslim charitable donations to stuff in his Swiss bank accounts and keep his wife and children comfortably ensconced in Paris.
Steve
[Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on October 06, 2004 05:43 PM]
Re(1): Light up the Pyre
Euzkadi Ta Azkatasuna (ETA) Spannish Christian Terrorits
P.K.K. Kurdistan liberation movement
Shining Path, Peruvian Christians along with Tupac Amaru, Cuban funded who in 20 years have killed more than 30,000 people.
United Self defence forces of Columbia (AUC)
Revolutionary Nuclei, Greece formerly (ELA)
Timothy McVeigh and Randy Nicholas- American fundamentalists.
The Weatherman Terrorist Group- American Marxist group, that recruited across campuses in the 60s and 70s.
The Unibomber – American terrorist, motivation unknown
The Tigers of Tamil Eelam – Sri Lanka
The Revoulutionary Armed Forces of Colombia(FARC)
Aum Shinrikyo – Japanese cult terrorists.
Baader-Meinhoff – Germany in the 70s
The Irish Republican Army (IRA) I personally escaped these bastards twice!
Revolutionary Organisation 17 November Greece again.
Red Hand Volunteers- Ireland
Steve, in the depths of your prejudice you only see Islam. You fear terrorists who would do us harm in the name of Islam. You especially fear the manner in which they terrorize. So for you, they have succeeded. You have allowed terror to terrorize you. You have allowed yourself to be a victim of terrorism. It’s your fear that drives your vitriol.
And you are sitting in Virginia,scared,ill informed and full of hate for something you know virtually nothing about.
How about a career in the State Department? You’d fit in perfectly.
Re: Light up the Pyre
How arrogant of you to presume to apologize for me. How self-righteous of you to assume that your position is so right that it can not be disputed.
If the Christians are equally disposed to violence as the Muslims, why do you need to go back more than a millenium to find an example of such Christian violence? Shouldn’t there be more recent examples? Why do you think that modern Muslims have not advanced past the barbarous Christian Crusades of the Middle Ages which you admit is equivalent?
If all religions are equally disposed to violence, as you preposterously claim, why are all the current terrorists Muslim? Shouldn’t some terrorists represent other religions? Where are the Baptist snuff videos showing them beheading infidel Methodists while shouting “Jesus is Lord”? Where are the Buddhist car bombings of infidel Shintos? Where are the sermons by the Pope from his balcony in the Vatican saying it is OK to kill infidel Lutherans, steal their stuff, and take their women as sex slaves? It’s a joke to even conjure up such scenarios, isn’t it? Yet, they are all common practices of militant Islamic fundamentalists.
If your religion is equally disposed to violence as the Muslims, please list all the terrorist atrocities perpetrated by your fellow worshippers. If your claim is true, it should be a long list, proportional of course to the number of Muslim terror attacks. If false, there will be none. Which is it?
The worldwide campaign of Muslim terror is undeniable. The fact that Islam holds a monopoly on religious terror points to a moral defect in that faith. I challenge you to have the intellectual courage to look the facts in the face and admit the obvious.
Steve
Re: Light up the Pyre
My response to Abu Aardvark would be that Qaradawi makes a pretense of embracing dialogue but undercuts that by encouraging others to go out and carry out the violent jihad. he has got to at least SEEM to be moderate on some level or he will lose his citizenship here in Qatar. Still, he manages to just push the boundaries without going too far — or at least denying that he did. If you believe him, he is the most misquoted, mailgnedMuslim on the face of the earth.
But get one thing straight: Qaradawi is NEVER going to be the one to lead anyone into battle or even put himself in any kind of physically vulbnerable position. The man is surrounded by armed guards at all times — kinda like the Muslim Mafia.
I see Qaradawi as an opportunist, who often plays to the crowd in his issuing fatwas that support terrorism, aka “martyrdom operations”. Are you telling me that he doesn’t mean its ok to kill innocents but instead thinks we should talk out the problems? Why doesn’t he say that then? If he truly wants dialogue to promote reconciliation and peace, why does he keep issuing these fatwas that justify — even encourage — terror.
For more on this subject check out [url]http://peacefulmuslimah.blogspot.com/[/url]
Salaam,
PM
[Modified by: peacefulmuslimah (peacefulmuslimah) on October 07, 2004 08:23 PM]
Light up the Pyre
You know, I have been having lots of conversations with people on Islam recently. I normally don’t really get involved in this topic because I don’t feel qualified to speak about it .. but I am going to give it a go and see what people think.
1. I used to say that the Moslems are growing up like the Christians did before us. We are a younger religion and we are still separating curch from state. We just need time. I am not so sure that this is entirely legitimate though – because globalization and information should really be speeding up the process.
2. When one compares Jesus to Mohammed – there are some interesting differences between them that may have significant effect on how the religions were trasmitted and spread. JC, during his lifetime, did not really succeed that much as a ‘prophet’. In fact, the spread of Christinaity was much more a function of St. Peter than it was of Jesus himself. JC died a Jew, not a “Christian”. The Bible is full of stoires of Man is his fundamental state of weakness and humanity. Lots of suffering, lots of pain, lots of humanity, lots of compassion. Mohammed’s first act of significance was to marry an older woman who was relatively wealthy and gave him a honorable position in Quraysh. (Guy Ritchie anyone?) He was much more of a consummate politician, and when you read the Qoran .. the text is really written for ‘strong’ men. There is little ambiguty and spirituality in terms of how to deal with issues .. it is much more of a practical what to do kind of a book when all is alright with the world, so to speak. The ambiguity is so implicit and so subtle, one has to really be a master in order to find it. Therefore, the way that both these Prophets lived their lives and both these books have been written lend themselves to a different kind of religious evolution. (The corporate culture differs, as such, the moslem and the christian communities differs as well). Now, i am not making a judgement call on the vices and virtues of Islam vs Christainity, i am merely saying that when there is no ‘mediator’ or ‘interpretor’ between God and Man – then Man has very little choice but to go back to a book for understanding. And if the book itself has very fixed ‘how to’ messages, then one does have to ask how the spiritual growth can occur. Or at the very least, question what it would take. (this last comment more addressed to the Moslems.)
3. What is also amazing in Islam is that there was a lot more tolerance in recent years than there is today. Ibn el Rushd was able to write things about reason and faith in Islam that would be considered blasphemous today. In fact, earlier this century, the Egyptians were publishing books by self proclaimed athiests without fear of retribution. Where has this tolerance and intellectual curiosity gone? And how have we killed it? Is it our political leadership? Is it our legislation? Is it the development of society? we really need to ask why. And we also need to question the lack of tolerance for the other. And I am not talking about tolerance for the Christian and the Jew, I am talking about why it is so hard for a Wahhabi Sunni to accept a Shia as a legit Moslem ..
4. In a perverse manner, with all the pain in Iraq and with all the negative unintended consequences of US foriegn policy in the region, I think that the Moslem world and the Arab leadership have been given a real chance to prove to themsleves and to everyone else just who they are .. they are going to have to rise to the challenge of how they are going to be able to lead their people into the 21st century in a mature, integrated manner …
Re: Light up the Pyre
It seems like that which Jesus and Mohammed said is relatively less significant than the big tails of interpretation which followed each. The common theme for both is that when religious people have significant power in their culture, they make bad use of it. Religious people make better advisors than rulers. Whenever they command a country, they want to kill their religious rivals next door and then abroad.
Steve
Re(4): Light up the Pyre
I was headed for the shower when I heard on the radio a little Cessna had hit a building in New York. So I turned on the TV to see what was up. The hole was way too big for a light plane.
I had only been watching a minute when an airliner entered from the right of the screen. I thought he must be gawking. Sometimes when a tornado or something hit near our base when I was flying in the AF, we would fly over it if we could during a mission and gawk. But geez, this guy was low, way below the floor for FAA regulations.
It was a dark jet, maybe United colors. It turned left, dipping its wing down to expose an engine strut. Too long a strut for a 737. Maybe a 767. Then it impacted the building like a bad movie and a fireball came out the other side.
The newscaster immediately said this was no accident, it’s an attack. I didn’t get it. I didn’t accept that it was an attack. Why would anyone fly a jet into a skyscraper on purpose? It took me a few minutes to go through all the possible reasons how this could be an accident and dismiss them all before I could accept this as an attack.
The next few hours was spent gathering information, much of it wrong and contradictory. I didn’t have a good sense of the general events until the end of the day. I looked out my office window, which presented a view of the departure pattern for the local airport in Austin, for the next few days at empty air. It was quite a relief when I saw jets again. Isn’t it funny how you take jets overhead for granted until they’re gone and then you really miss them.
It was the faces of the dead that made me mad and their obituaries in the New York Times, along with the fragmentary stories of the cruelty of the hijackers. I can’t imagine how scared they must have been with those animals on board. I read every one published.
I was unforgettably struck by the image of Palestinians celebrating in the streets. They can never expect any sympathy from me again. And I was very much taken aback as I began to read stories of how ordinary Arabs said those Americans deserved to die.
The first was a story in the Wall Street Journal about an Egyptian teenager in jeans and makeup who casually said America had it coming. And then the Europeans. And then the American Left.
The first lefty protestor showed up on the steps of the Capitol in Austin the following Saturday, dressed in a bedsheet dishdasha and a keffiyeh. We didn’t really know who had hit us yet but he was for them, whoever they were.
My fury grew as I read how the trail led back to Saudi Arabia, the system of religious indoctrination there, the public calls for jihad against America, the secret support for Bin Laden by the people and princes, and the refusal by the Saudis to help the investigation. And it’s just gotten worse and worse the more I learn about the Saudis and Wahhabis.
For me, Sep 11 will never be over until the jihad Saudi Arabia launched against us is returned upon their heads one hundred fold. I want to see Saudi cities smoking like the World Trade Center and Pentagon. America will never be safe until Saudi Arabia is destroyed and the evil Wahhabis crushed to a pulp.
Steve
[Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on October 07, 2004 05:29 PM]
Light up the Pyre
Alright, normally I might join you in some Qaradawi-bashing, but everyone has already beat me to it. So to make things interesting, let me throw in a different argument, which is sure to make for a fun debate.
Most of what we hear about Qaradawi is from the media that is really not well informed about the reality of Islamists and Islamism. Instead, let me share with you a quote from an academic, a professor of Political Science specializing on the Middle East. Abu Aardvark maintains that when we look at the spectrum of Islamists out there Qaradawi falls in the moderate end. That doesn’t mean that he is an angel by any means, but rather, we need a slightly more advanced model to better capture what’s going on (rather than the “black or white” framework that most of the media uses). This is what the aardvark says:
I think an important point to note is that the Arab political centre (even in Bahrain) is more and more comfortable with suicide bombings against Israelis.
– Chan’ad
Re(2): Light up the Pyre
To comment on just this one point – yes, Arabs are Semites, but the term “anti-semite” comes from late 19th century Europe and was used as a synonym for “anti-Jewish.” Instead of using that term “anti-Semite” was invented out of a conviction that the Jews were actually a [u]race[/u], called the “Semites,” who must be opposed by the “anti-Semites.” It’s based on the false notion that Jews are a race. I think that Steve was referring to anti-Jewish propaganda, etc., being propagated by some Muslim clerics, organizations, etc. – for example, the claim a couple of years ago made by a Saudi journalist that Jews bake pastries for the holiday of Purim (in the Spring) using the blood of Muslim or Christian children. (I think I can get the reference, if necessary, from MEMRI).
Re(3): Light up the Pyre
I know and agree with both you and Steve regarding the anti-jewish sentiments experienced by the Jews and the anti-muslim sentiments experienced by ourselves. There is no reason for either.
I have no doubt that some misguided (read dickheaded) cleric has painted Jews as subhuman, blood-thirsty people. By the same token, I am sure that some extreme Jewish cleric has done the same for his perceived (or real) enemies.
The world is not perfect. If you haven’t had a chance to read my education article, please do so as I address some of these issues as they pertain to us, Muslims, there.
Light up the Pyre
I’m just checking these comments after some days later, and I wanted to reply to something Steve said a way back, about the religious bases of violent acts. To the Crusades – I don’t consider them terrorist acts, but they certainly were motivated by religious fervor to recapture the holy land. Yes, they were a long time ago, but religiously-based hatred among Christians and violence from it has still not disappeared – the violence in Northern Ireland is the best example I can think of off the top of my head. And religiously-motivated anti-semitism among Christians still exists, and until after the Second World War was an official part of Catholic doctrine. I’m not trying to pretend that there isn’t Islamic terrorism – take a look at my blog, [url]http://www.mystical-politics.blogspot.com[/url] for my opinion on it (I’ve just posted on the terrorist attacks against Israelis in Egypt last night). I’m just trying to argue that NOT ALL MUSLIMS (or even most) are terrorists or support terrorism, which seems to be Steve’s position. If it can be shown that I’m wrong (for example by a poll of the globe’s one billion Muslims) I’ll retract my comments!
Re: Light up the Pyre
You are mischaracterizing my position which I have clearly stated. I have flatly stated that only a tiny minority of Muslims are terrorists. I have flatly stated that only a small minority of Muslims actively support such terrorism.
However, my judgement is that most Muslims passively support terrorism based on opinion polls of the Middle East, the Arab press, the official positions of Arab governments, the lack of Arab support for tracking down terrorists, and the open public support for terrorists shown by marches where people are wearing mock suicide belts. I see very little rejection of Islamic terrorism by Arab Muslims in any medium. If you know of any, list them.
Terrorism is publicly supported by Islamic clerics. It is not supported by any Catholic clergy that I know of. The Islamic terrorists proceed based on Wahhabi doctrine openly preached in the schools, universities, media, and government announcements. There is no such terrorist doctrine espoused by the Catholic church or any other major religion. Islamic terrorists worldwide are acting in support of jihad promoted by Islamic clerics. What local terrorism being done in Ireland is done for political reasons, not on orders from the parish priest nor bishop nor cardinal nor Pope. The IRA has not declared war on the world as the Wahhabis have.
Likewise, anti-Semitism is actively and loudly promoted by Islamic clerics the world around. It is not promoted by the Catholic church and is in fact publicly rejected. The Pope and his crew are not flacking the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as evidence against the Jews. The Muslim clerics actively do. In fact, I don’t know of any major religion which embraces anti-Semitism, aside from Islam.
You are setting up an impossible test to disprove your opinion. It’s impossible to poll a billion Muslims or a billion anybody. The whole idea of polling is to take a representative sample.
You’re looking at this issue through politically correct glasses. Take them off and look at them in the light of sunshine. Terrorism is popular among Muslims. The day it becomes unpopular is the day it stops.
Steve
Re(1): Light up the Pyre
We’re not anti-semite Steve. We ARE semites!
What you probably meant is anti-Israeli.
Re(2): Light up the Pyre
[quote]What you probably meant is anti-Israeli. [/quote]
What I mean is mindless violent anti-Jewish hatred by Muslims like this and this and this and this and this.
Steve
Re(3): Light up the Pyre
Steve, I wish I had the time to research the reverse subject, ie, Jews hating Muslims. Because of human nature and the nature of this conflict it must exist, however I don’t have the time at the moment to respond more fully.
The essence is however is not jews hating muslims or muslims hating jews. We individually will not be able to resolve this situation unless we act together and find points of common ground.
I’ve starting it my own way and have declared countless times that I have no problem whatsoever with jews or the State of Israel.
I do have jewish and Israely friends, and you know something, when we meet, the conflict is the last thing on our minds. We just enjoy ourselves, exchange ideas, and have fun. If and when the subject of the Palestinians or the plight that both sides are experiencing and have been for decades comes up, we treat the subject with the respect it deserves and find that we do have common ground, in that we want peace, and we want to create a better life for our children and ourselves, and agree that peace is the only way forward.
They also recognise that this problem is not going to go away even after the creation of a Palestinian state, but will live at least for one generation under the cloud of violence.
I also have Palestinian friends who subscribe the same ideals, they too want peace, they’re fed up of being uprooted and stateless. They do blame their own leadership for their ills and recognise that they need a leader for peace, nor war.
We can go on about this ad infinitum, but from my own experience is that the main parties to this conflict want peace. However I must confess that I have heard countless radical ideas from people who are not connected in any way to this conflict, from fellow Arabs and westerners. The strongest was from a Jordanian Christian friend who was adament that the only way forward is the annihilation of Israel, and if that takes 5 years or 500 years so be it, his idea is to wait. His solution is to encourage the Israeli Arabs to breed, and in a few years they will outnumber the Israeli Jews, take over the parliament and throw the Jews out!
He’s a few fills short of a dinar, but he’s atypical.