In a country where ministers receive US$265,252 as Eid bonuses every year.
In a country where parliament has squandered $31,830,238 in salaries and other benefits over two years without showing anything for it.
In a country where elected MPs want to “give” citizens $1,326 each, amounting to $91,095,490 with complete disregard of fiscal policy.
In a country where MPs are more concerned with their retirement fund, than legislating proper laws that will ensure a better future for Bahrain.
In a country where MPs are fighting to get themselves private health insurance (arabic) rather than ensuring the proper running and equipping hospitals in Bahrain.
In a country where the daily income from oil revenue exceeds $6,000,000.
In a country where the majority of the workforce are South Asians.
In a country where the main relief organisation (the Red Crescent) has to await cabinet’s approval before it initiates relief efforts.
We give a paltry $2,000,000 to the victims of the Asian tsunami.
Shame on you Bahrain.
Comments
Largess?
I fear no amount of money will be enough.
God rest the souls of the dead and show mercy on the survivers.
Re: Uncle scrooge
Mahmood and any Bahraini here,
Is this the amount donated only by your government? Or does it include private donations too?
Re: Largess?
That’s very true Cindy. One soul lost is too many. However we have to deal with the situation we have inherited and unfortunately the best and fastest rehabilitation efforts cost a lot of money. Bahrain should have found a way to contribute a lot more, considering how inexorably linked Bahrain and the affected countries are.
Stingey.
Re(1): Uncle scrooge
Government only. Private donations are being collected by all the mosques, churches and private organisations on the island.
Re(1): Largess?
Indeed Mahmood. Workers from the area comprise a huge percentage of the populations of the gulf. In my personal experience these workers are often not treated very well. My experience with this deals mainly with their treatment in Saudi, but I have seen some of it when I was in UAE as well. I dont know how these workers are treated in other areas of the gulf, hopefully better than what I saw in UAE and especially Saudi.
Malik
Largess?
__PUBLIC__ DONATIONS to jan 3 2005 (reminding that the affected populations are in their majority muslim ones – a fact that in OTHER times would have been of no concern but that in our times raises to some significance: for how much speaking about religion we have witnessed in the last 4 years, these muslim populations are absurdly receiving more help from non muslim countries):
Japan: 500m
World Bank: 250m
Spain: 68m
UK: 50m (planning 70)
Switzerland: 36m
Usa 35m (planning a x 10 increase)
Australia: 34.3
France: 22 (planning 42.6)
European Union: 30m (planning to go to 290m)
Canada: 33 (planning 66)
Italy: about 30 planning 70
Germany: 20m
Norway: 12m
Portugal 8m
Saudi Arabia: 7.8m
Qatar: 7.4
Cina: 2.8
Algeria: 2
Kuwait: 1.4
Denmark: 1.2
Re: Largess?
What can I say except to repeat that this is very shameful…
People of the affected areas have practically built our countries from nothing. And when their time of real need comes, their pain and suffering is faced by absolute silence, even indifference judging by the paltry amounts our countries have donated.
I have yet to hear of one Gulf country sending troops, hospitals, doctors, engineers and other needed skills to help with evacuations, keeping the peace and disaster releaf. Why don’t we have that? I know that Bahrain is involved in sending a contingent to the Phillipines to keep the peace there and that is admirable. But our societies need to wake up again from their long slumber and truly get active in the world once again. All we have been doing so far it seems is finding ways to procrastinate. Bahrain probably spends multiples of the $2m the goverment donated for disaster releaf on just the lighting bill for the national day celebratory lights and stupid plastic light-up trees.
Re(1): Largess?
How many tens of millions of dollars do they spend to put on the big festival in Dubai every year? They give away millions…….houses, cars, cash. In the spirit of true Islam they should cancel this years festival and donate the money to the victims, or come up with the monies and donate an equal amount. I am sure the victims could use it, and I am also sure that even a small amount of the prizes they give away could do wonders.
Malik
Re: Largess?
I wouldnt expect any Muslim nation to be able to give the amounts of money places like Japan and the USA can, but at least give something. But this is indicative of the root of the problem. These nations have governments that do not care about their own populations, how can they be expected to care about any one else’s?
Millions are coming from Muslims, but from independent aid organisations. I attended a fundraiser here at a mosque in the Metro DC area Friday night. Time for these countries to step up and give money, not only to their own people, but to worthy causes abroad.
Haramee, one and all, these governments.
Malik.
Re(2): Largess?
the difference is that all these “give-aways” are really lotteries – gambling not to put too fine a word on it – where the organisers actually get a lot more than they give, which is the nature of the game.
however, yes I agree with you wholeheartedly, we have far too many “eye candy” events which serve absolutely no purpose and they spend millions on them without batting and eye-lid, yet when it comes to worthy causes, they suddenly lose their hearing, sight and voice.
and you have hit on the crux of the issue Malik, most of these governments don’t care about their own people, why should they care about mere “workers” and “indians”?
the difference as far as Bahrain is concerned is that we have a parliament, which in theory can force the government’s hand and get it to donate a lot more. But then we’re talking about a useful parliament, rather than an old fish-wives’ club.
Largess?
I would think that if each country gave between $1.00 and $2.00 per person based on that nations own population that would be nothing to be ashamed of on the giveng scale.
Thoughts? Ideas?
Re: Largess?
I was sure that someone would raise this issue. My answer is simple. If we (Arab countries) give based on per-capita only, then even the numbers pledged so far would compare very favourably with donations from the West, the Arab nations (particularlly the Gulf) have relatively small populations and their GDP is much lower than the States of any other European country – Bahrain for instance has the same GDP supposedly as Cyprus while Saudi is even lower than Bahrain.
But, comparing the giving in this time of need, the contention is that these very same countries spend multiples more on unworthy things: extravigant national day celebrations, a price’s visit to some remote area, useless government controlled radio and television amongst many many more projects which are a drain on the national budget with absolutely no tangible or intangible result.
So yes they are at fault for being so stingey, and they should NEVER compare their donations nor rationalise it with local per capita incomes. It just doesn’t work. Especially for instance if you compare costs of building palaces running to hundreds of millions of dollars and only used as summer/winter/weekend retreats.
Re(1): Largess?
Mahmood is right. Look at the money these people blow on nonsense. Prince Bandar, the Saudi Ambassador here in DC, has at least two mansions here in the USA, with a total square footage exceeding 100,000. He has a palace in Aspen Colorado that is over 50,000 sf, it is so big requires its own waste treatment plant. He has a huge full time staff there, including waiters in full uniform. Never mind the fact that he spends only a week or two a year there, partying with his friends and the latest women they have found. He wears suits that cost $5,000 and more.
This is common in the Saudi royal family. One wonders how much Bandar has given? These people are a shame to their countries, their religion, and to the world.
Malik
Re(3): Largess?
Yeah, I am not too confident in any group set up in any of these countries. It is much like the councils set up in Saudi. They set up these councils trying to get the world to think that they have changed, are reforming. But the council doesnt mean a thing when it is filled with members of the royal family and those depending on the wasta (connections) with the royal family and the establishment.
I dont know that much about Bahraini politics, but the only way a parliament works is when you have free and open elections and people are elected who do not owe their political or economic lives to the ruling forces.
I am not a fan of monarchies, but if you are going to have them they need to be run the way they are in places like the UK and Holland. Holland, where the royalty bike to work.
Malik.
Largess?
The comment regarding the per capita income is correct. However, to look at that alone gives an incomplete picture. The other main issues are:
1) The distribution of wealth – this is a benchmark for any economy. Here in Bahrain, it is concentrated in the hands of very few – 65% of the population earn less than BD200/month.
2) You need also to look at earnings disparity. How much does someone in middle management in your company earn? What is that as a multiple of the least paid person in the company? How much does the headhoncho earn? What is that as a multiple?
3) Should the GDP of Bahrain be higher? it is a statistical fact that Bahrain has one third of the productivity of developed countries – we all know the main reasons;
Re: Largess?
That’s a true and astute observation.
My contention is that there is no benchmark at which we can judge how much Bahrain (or for that matter any other Arab country) should contribute because the GDP and Per Capita Income or whatever other international economic yardstick just doesn’t make sense here because of the disparities you have highlighted.
Would a Bahraini contribution of say $10 million be enough? What is that in comparison to the known theft that happened in the Housing Bank which is about to be settled out of court against their former manager by him returning BD 1.5 million ($4m) to the bank, disregarding the opportunity costs associated with that stolen money for all these past years, disregarding the shady loans he has approved for himself and his family and friends, disregarding his buying a bank’s Lexus car for $1, disregarding the abrogation of citizens’ right to see this thief stripped of his wealth and thrown behind bars as a clear and unambiguous message to the others found and to be found with hands deep in cookie jars?
Would a Bahraini contribution of say $100 million be enough? When there is no way to force a public official to declare his wealth as a condition of accepting and maintaining public office? When you see a minister getting the job and he personally encumbered with loans to the hilt, and a few years later he owns vast tracks of land, compounds and other properties?
Would a Bahraini contribution of say $1 billion be enough? If there was a guarantee that corruptors and corruption at all levels is exposed giving the chance of recouping that $1 billion in a few days of investigation of RECENT wrongs, let alone long term corruption?
I would have been happy with NO monitary contribution, but the pledge of a mobile hospital to be set up anywhere in the disaster area attended by Bahraini physicians, nurses and technicians. That would have been an honourable thing to do…. not a $2 million insult.
Re(1): Largess?
Anything that happens in these countries always has a healthy cut taken off the top, normally about 5% for which ever prince handles the transaction, although Prince Bandar is known as “Mr. 20%”. How much of any donation made by these countries would actually reach the people of the area?
I think the Shar’ia punishment for theft ought to start being applied to the various members of the royal families and their lackies for such crimes. It would be interesting to see half the members of the royal families from the gulf missing hands and feet.
The field hospital is a nice idea, it would be interesting to know the composition, ethnically, of the doctors and the nurses who would operate such an operation from Bahrain, or any country in the gulf. There are more than enough gulf citizens that are doctors, just odd I never met any in the gulf, the only gulf doctors I have ever met have been in the USA. I guess the money is just much better here.
Malik
Re(2): Largess?
And they monetarily support the ideology that will overthrow them. Sadly, the revolutionaries are worse than the monarchy.
Hypocracy ahoy!
Re(2): Largess?
No-one should be maimed for any crime.
Only barbarians believe that.
Re(2): Largess?
Believe it or not, we actually have unemployed physicians in Bahrain, so this idea would actually put them to work to earn a living, they in turn would help the destitute in the tsunami affected areas, the doctors and nurses would actually gain very valuable experience dealing with tragic but ER kind of situations that they can be redeployed in Bahrain not only when their need lessen in the disaster areas, but can also be used as experienced members for any other disaster in the world.
The benefit? This little spick on an island would grow immensely in reputation and that would actually have direct impact by businesses relocation once again to Bahrain creating more jobs.
I should be hired as a PR guy for the government, I am good! 🙂
Re(3): Largess?
Only barbarians believe in mutilation? I hope you arent an American? Americans put children and people who are mentally retarded to death. As to chopping off the hand of a Saudi prince, or other such ilk, who steals hundreds of millions whilst his people starve? I am all for it.
Malik
Re(3): Largess?
Good idea Mahmood. My personal experience is with Saudi and I know most Saudi doctors end up leaving Saudi for the west and leave Indian and Pakistani doctors to tend to the people of Saudi Arabia. This is why, until 9/11, if you lived in Saudi and had any money you came to the US for your treatment.
Sending doctors and nurses from Bahrain would be a great thing to do, and a truly Islamic act. Muslim countries helping Muslim victims, a nice idea. Nothing will change until we learn to help ourselves.
Malik
Largess?
Hello Mahmood
I’d have a question, you look an intelligent person and I have had this question in my mind for many months now but I never found any arab person to ask. Yet this thread is not the right one but if you inaugurate a thread, at your own insindacable discretion for this is YOUR blog, about frames of mind in the in arab culture (every culture has its own frames of mind), I will ask it there – maybe not today but tomorrow.
It is not a terrific or very difficult question, but it is about something that always puzzled me.
Ok let’s say I ask the question here (feel free to delete this post if you want, I will NOT feel any offence) but if you find it interesting or stimulating maybe you can think of a post about it in your next blog item.
I was born and raised in Italy. Unlike most italians, I do not deem my country the nicest in the world – how convenient when one finds the country where he or she had the venture to born as the best one isn’t it?
I _LIKE_ feeling the difference in cultures, that is what more stimulates me to travel or to make friendships: what a bore if all would be identical!
But I found sort of a pattern when speaking with a few persons of arab descent.
Even on a book, I found an instance of it: an italian professor of arab cultures was in Algeria and he reported that when he showed an obvious interest in the Koran, it eventually happened that the religious teachers or professors in that country seemed to assume that this interest in the Koran was a sign of weakness. That is, he was answered “if you feel the fascination of the Koran, it is because you are aware that your native religion is weak”.
Now, why it is felt that way. How is the reasoning behind it? I found at times that if somebody is kind with _some_ arab persons, this kindness is assumed as an inherent sign of weakness. But here in Italy for instance BOTH things are normal, courtesy and also intellectual interest. I think I am among the not too many persons in Italy who read the Koran. Do you know I even liked a Sura like “Repentance”? Maybe because I read holy books in a spiritual manner and to me “exterminating the unbelievers” means doing it by your example of virtue: that “exterminates” the ungodly. “Make war on the infidels”, but war is for a religious book a metaphor for life itself. Living is a “war”. And how many infidels we all jhost within OURSELVES? To me religious books are metaphor.
Now, why showing an interest in a culture may lead somebody to think it is a sign of weakness, or why there seems to be a pattern after which kindness or intellectual empathy gets mistaken for weakness and defeat?
I don’t understand it. Of course, it is well possible that this applies to unlearned persons. But I noticed this pattern, and since I am used to wonder, I was wondering: but why, what could be the underlying assumption?
ciao and no problem if you find the question unfit or you don’t answer for whatever reason. I thank you anyway, and of course: great blog – it proves to me that self criticism can dwell in the middle east, and when your visitors say “we must help ourselves” well this is a major, majestic leap forward for the perception is that the assumption of responisiblities that self criticism involves was precisely what was missing. I liked it, and I like your blog.
Re(4): Largess?
Easy with your obsession to chop people up pal. This sort of thinking’s got the region into the predicament it is in today and it doesn’t need anymore of it imported from America or from obvious lunatics like Al Faqih in the UK.
Re: Largess?
I dont think showing an interest in a foriegn culture is a sign of weakness. I dont think the person you talked to, an Algerian, would be able to speak for all Arabs, or even for Algerians.
As a non Arab, American convert to Islam, I find Arabs are usually very delighted when they see my interest in Arabic cultural and my ability with the Arabic language and I have never had any Arab say anything about this being a weakness.
As a matter of fact, Mahmood himself comment positively on my knowledge of the Arabic cultural and its vast differences. I have never encountered this reaction that you have heard about and I have traveled all over the Middle East and have been in and around Arabs in Europe, America, the Middle East and North Africa. I am married to an Arab.
As to “exterminating unbelievers” I would agree with your idea and point out that it is often said that the best Da’wa(actions meant to spread the message of Islam) is the living of a good, just and clean life. It is felt that this example is the best way to spread Islam. Historically, this is true. The largest Muslim nation in the world today never had a Muslim army sent to convert it. Indonesia came into contact with Islam via Muslim traders and converted because of the virtues of the religion, not by the sword. An example many Muslims and non Muslims alike should remember.
Kindness, for Arabs, is a cultural and religious mandate. You will seldom, if ever, find a people more generous to strangers and visitors as the Arabs, so it would be strange for an Arab to think of this kindness or interest as a weakness. It just doesnt describe anything I know about Arabs and Middle Eastern culture at all.
Maybe this Algerian was an anomoly, or maybe his attitude, as can often be the case, was condiscending and “Orientalist” in its outlook, as if Arabs and their culture are some sort of historical curiosity to be examined.
I look forward to Mahmood’s answer on this question.
Malik
Re(4): Largess?
Malik,
You said “Only barbarians believe in mutilation? I hope you arent an American? Americans put children and people who are mentally retarded to death. ”
That’s right Malik. American police roam the streets looking for retarded people and stray children to put to death. Can’t have vagrant types littering our neighborhoods and making a bad impression on tourists, you know. At least give us credit for not putting folks with unauthorized political viewpoints to death. We’ve come that far, at least.
Re: Largess?
One of the most important tenet of Islam and the Prophet (pbuh) is the active seeking of knowledge whereever it may be. This is the essense of Islam: “Seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave” is something that is drilled into us from infancy.
Therefore I am surprised by your experience. There is no greater and satisfying sights to a Muslim other than to see a non-Muslim reading the Holy Book and trying to understand Islam, the culture and the history. This again is what has been said and actively sought from the birth of Islam.
Maybe it is just an anomaly that you have experienced. I must admit that I have experienced it too in variuos guises, mostly from people who think of their own culture with disdain, and regard the other (mostly European/American) culture as superior to ours, hence they would “look down” on people trying to understand our way of life and our religion.
Two of the best places you can visit in Bahrain that would show you our love to impart Islamic knowledge and culture to foreigners are the “Beit Al-Quran” – the House of Quran, and the “Al-Fateh Mosque” both of which offer guided tours by Muslim converts and local guides. In those tours you will feel the welcome you get from the guides and the places themselves. If you decide to just sit in a the library with a book and contemplate, I doubt that anyone will harrass you. Scholars are also at hand, at least curators, who can help answer some of your questions.
I suggest that maybe your Algerian friend was an anomaly rather than a rule. Come to Bahrain and we’ll be more than happy to take you around.
Re(5): Largess?
I never said American police roam the street looking for anyone to kill, but it is fact that America, almost alone in the Western world, puts children and people mentally retarded to death.
We are now putting American citizens in jail without trial, charge, or way to prove themselves innocent. When the terrorists force us into situations such as this, they are the winners.
Malik
Re(1): Largess?
Good response Mahmood. Isnt there a Hadith about searching for knowledge even if it takes you to China? The only response I have gotten from Arabs and Muslims when they learn of my interest in the religion and the culture is appreciation and surprise.
Malik
Re(6): Largess?
[quote] but it is fact that America, almost alone in the Western world, puts children and people mentally retarded to death.
[quote]
Give us the who what where when how and whys. First I have heard of this……..
Re(6): Largess?
Malik,
If you have evidence of 8 year old children being put to death in America, I’d like to see it. Mentally retarded people aren’t killed because they are mentally retarded. Where did you get this impression?
Perhaps you are confusing America with some other countries in the world, like Sudan, whose murderous governments spare no one, children, adults, mentally retarded, and so on …
Largess?
Why can’t the citizens of Bahrain raise over $2m on their own and bring shame to their government like the British have just done?
xx
Re(7): Largess?
Asked “quote] but it is fact that America, almost alone in the Western world, puts children and people mentally retarded to death.
[quote]
Give us the who what where when how and whys. First I have heard of this…….. ”
“People have been executed for crimes that they committed when they were children, in clear violation of international human rights law. As at June 1998, there were 70 people on death row for offences committed when they were under 18 years of age.”
The USA reserved the right not to implement certain provisions of the ICCPR that protect the human rights of children, such as the prohibition on the use of the death penalty for crimes committed by people aged under 18;
the USA has not ratified the most important treaty for the protection of the human rights of children, the Convention on the Rights of the Child. One hundred and ninety-two governments have ratified the Convention. The only other UN member not to have ratified the Convention is Somalia.
Article 6(5) of the ICCPR prohibits passing a death sentence on anyone aged less than 18 at the time of the crime. International standards deem this to be such a fundamental safeguard that it may never be suspended, even in times of war or internal conflict [8]. The USA signed the ICCPR in October 1977, thereby binding itself not to do anything which would defeat the object and purpose of the treaty, pending a decision whether to ratify it. In the time between signature and eventual ratification in June 1992, US state authorities executed five people for crimes committed when they were under 18, and sentenced to death more than 70 other such people.
When it ratified the ICCPR, the US government reserved the right to impose the death penalty for crimes committed by those under 18. In 1995 the UN Human Rights Committee, the body of experts set up to monitor compliance with the ICCPR, said that the US reservation was incompatible with the object and purpose of the ICCPR and should be withdrawn. However, since ratification, US state authorities have executed six prisoners for crimes committed when they were under 18, including two in 1998. In June 1998, there were 70 such prisoners awaiting this fate on US death rows.
In 1998, twenty-four US states permit the use of the death penalty against those under 18 at the time of the crime [9]. Fourteen states have legislation enforcing 18 as the minimum age [10]. The federal government has set 18 as the minimum age of eligibility with respect to violations of federal criminal law, but this does not absolve it from its responsibility to ensure that state governments do the same. Under international law, the federal government is the authority ultimately responsible for ensuring that all US officials comply with their international obligations. The US Constitution expressly establishes that powers to sign and ratify treaties reside with the federal state and not with the individual states.
In contrast to this international consensus, some US politicians are calling for children as young as 11 to be made eligible for the death penalty. For its part, the US Supreme Court, while recognizing that the law should treat children and adults differently, has determined that 16 should be the minimum age, not 18. In Thompson v. Oklahoma in 1988, the Court ruled that the execution of a person who was 15 at the time of the crime breached the federal constitutional prohibition against the imposition of cruel and unusual punishments. In its decision the Court said: “Youth is more than a chronological fact. It is a time and condition of life when a person may be most susceptible to influence and to psychological damage.” In 1989 the Court ruled that the execution of offenders aged 16 or 17 at the time of their crimes did not violate the constitution.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engAMR510601998
Malik
Re(7): Largess?
Where did I ever claim that 8 year old people were killed in the USA? People are executed for crimes commited under the age of 18. Mentally retarded people are killed in the USA, not for being retarded, but I feel that any death penalty carried out against the mentally retarded to be a crime in itself. Please do not feed words into my mouths or try to make me out to support things I do not. I do not support the death penalty for crimes commited by children (people under 18) nor do I support the death penalty for people who are retarded. Both, I believe, are a state sanctioned crime.
Malik
Uncle scrooge
Mahmood
what do you expect from uncle scrooge?……
Re(8): Largess?
Malik,
“Where did I ever claim that 8 year old people were killed in the USA? People are executed for crimes commited under the age of 18. ”
This not what you said in your original post. You said Americans kill children and the mentally retarded. Next time clarify yourself before spouting out these whoppers. Secondly, no one sees 16 or 17 year old gangbangers as “children”. They are young adults. Whether it is appropriate to execute a 17 year old murderer who knows right from wrong or whether a mentally retarded person was intelligent enough to understand right from wrong, is a discussion for another forum. Dropping off-topic jabs while ignoring worse things in other countries makes me think you have a chip on your shoulder over something.
Largess?
It is a shame. When you look at the total amount of Muslims involved directly in the disaster and then look at what the most wealthy Muslim countries give. It is a shame. This is the reason the Muslim “world” is in the shape that it is. Nothing will change until we help ourselves.
Malik
Re: Largess?
I think you are right, especially when you say “Also, it should be kept in mind the RATIO: Public found/Per capita national wealth. It is very difficult to calculate all of this, so I think Mahmood’s idea was the most rational one: let’s count in only the PUBLIC funds directly set up as CASH. ”
I also think that one thing that the private charities could do is set up organised groups to lobby their governments to give more aid. I do not know the logistics of this in many Middle Eastern countries where freedom is very limited, but if officials were made to feel shamed by these private charities maybe they would give more.
I have been overwhelmed by the monies given by private persons around the world, it is a good thing to see.
Malik
Largess?
Will it shame the officials to know that 1 American Actress, Sandra Bullock, donated out of her own pocket $1 million, half of the total of Bahrain? Or do they have no shame?
Re: Largess?
Indeed, if Bahraini citizens and residents have not already raised over $2 million, I imagine they will do very soon. I have been very heartened to see over the last few days how nearly every social, religious, cultural, sports, or other group has been collecting funds or supplies for the relief effort. Moreover I have noticed that most of them are doing this without any fanfare, announcing their donations in the paper. They have been collecting money from their members/supporters and are sending it off quietly, without using it as a PR stunt.
The government should be ashamed of itself, but the people can be very proud of themselves. I can’t remember the last time I saw so many groups in Bahrain rally around a single cause. Well done to you. May the government learn from your example.
Largess?
I think perhaps we should all step back and not just throw money at this situation, We need professionals, Doctors, nurses, holymen to help the wounded and bury the dead. The USA has some 5000 troops, an aircraft carrier and this aid is not in the money mix, We need someone to watch the UN to make sure that aid gets to those who need it. We need police to control the areas, The people who were on vacation stayed to help their fellow men, This is what is needed now. The USA has food reservers and medical supplies, being air lifted in. I was alarmed to see that countries were refusing the Jewish gesture, When hate comes before the needs of people I worry. I know nothing about the Arab culture, and most Arabs know anything about mine. I, however, respect their rights and expect them to respect mine. I have cried with the rest of the world, donated money and feel helpless.
In the town where I live we have every ethnic group and nationality we share what we can and let the other guy do their thing. In my state we do not have the death penalty and would never allow it to becoome law, I am sick when I see young boys being executed, hell I am sick when I see anyone executed.
Let us try to embrace our differences and respect each other.
Mahmood, How is the new dog. I myself have a Great Dane and if I could talk my husband into there would be two. I enjoy your posts and hope you will continue to share your life with us.
Re(4): Largess?
[quote]Only barbarians believe in mutilation? I hope you arent an American? Americans put children and people who are mentally retarded to death.[/quote]
Pure nonsense.
Steve
Re(10): Largess?
[quote]Sorry, but as an American and as a Muslim, I refuse the idea that children should be put to death and that people mentally retarded should be put to death as well.[/quote]
The US does not put children or the mentally retarded to death. Iran does that (http://www.activistchat.com). In the US, the death sentence can also be appealed numerous times, and the chances of a truly innocent person being killed is slim.
[quote]Funny how many people use these rules to bash Islam, but they fail to realise that many of the same rules, if not more harsh, are included in their own Bible, they simply need to open it up more often. [/quote]
Funny how you instantly think that I’m Christian.
Sadly, Malik, you’re incorrect. The harsh Jewish law as per Leviticus is not part of Pauline Christianity and has not been part of mainstream Judaism for many centuries.
Reason? The Torah is a historical document. The rules within are demonstrably God’s will for a specific time and place.
The New Testament contains only two eternal commandments of God:
1) Love God with all your ability
2) Love your neighbor as you love yourself
Especially in the New Testament, we do not find God giving any ‘rules’ on which direction to prostrate, as an example. God’s will is absolute, but his domain is the eternal, not the temporal. Much like Zoroastrianism, the Chritian God promotes ‘goodness
Re(4): Largess?
[quote]Look at the hundreds of years of missionary work in Muslim lands and look at the reletively small amount of converts to other religions, yet look at what is basically no formal missionary work by Muslims in the West and look at the millions of Westerners that have converted to Islam. [/quote]
Tell that to the Berbers.
But also, it’s important to note that in most Muslim countries conversion is a Death Penalty offense. If not via the government itself, then by family members or gangs of Islamists. Try looking at any conversion story and you’ll see the same thing – if you’re a Muslim and you dare convert, you face ostricization or death.
In the West, because we can freely question religious values, there is no penalty for conversion. Also, do you know the number of westerners that convert and then leave? You’d be surprised. Mosques aren’t all baklava and big dinners, as I’m sur you know. There’s a lot of lying that goes on there. Especially when what an Imam tells you directly contradicts what you’ve read in the book itself. (It happened to me)
[quote]why are the huge amounts of Christians still in Muslim lands in the Middle East? [/quote]
Why are they leaving? Bethelem was 90% christian under Isreali rule. Christians have been leaving Bethelem in droves for the past decade. Why? Harrassment. Heck, even the Church of the Nativity was -desecrated- by Muslims. Where was the world-wide outcry?
If Americans had done that in Kerbala..
I’m sorry, Malik, I don’t buy it.
Re(5): Largess?
Steve,
Do you deny the fact that Americans have and do put people to death who commited crimes as children? Do you deny the fact that Americans have and do put mentally retarded and mentally ill people to death?
Malik
Re(5): Largess?
[quote], why are the huge amounts of Christians still in Muslim lands in the Middle East? [/quote]
There just aren’t large amounts of Christains in the Middle East. I can count the Christain Bahraini’s I know on one hand and as you know there are no Christian Saudis. At least in an open sense. Jordan has about a 6% population, Lebanon has around 35% by far the most in the region, Algeria 1% Iraq around 2%, Yemen 1/2% Egypt 4-5%. Qatar 3% Tunsia 1%.
I don’t think any of these is a sizable amount.
Re(4): Largess?
Malik,
“Look at the hundreds of years of missionary work in Muslim lands and look at the reletively small amount of converts to other religions”
Non-muslim missionaries have a harder time in Muslim lands because of legal or social restrictions on preaching. This does not exist or exists in very limited form in secular countries. In South Korea, the formerly majority Buddhist population has been reduced by half because of conversion to Christianity.
When the middle-east becomes more secular and Islamic clerics do not exercise such heavy-handed influence on public society, expect to see more missionaries and more converts.
“why are the huge amounts of Christians still in Muslim lands in the Middle East? ”
I’m afraid many of them are leaving. They experience harassment in Egypt, in Iraq, and other places by the extreme religious elements. The Christian Palestinian population has declined significantly. 70% of the Arabs in the US are Christians, not Muslim.
Re(5): Largess?
Written “Tell that to the Berbers.”
Do I have to explain to you the difference between religion and ethnicity? Last I checked Berbers were Muslims. If you doubt that I can talk to one of my wife’s best friends, a Berber from Morrocco and see if the religious affiliation of the Berbers has changed the last 24 hours. The entire area, Christian and Muslim, has had many problems with inter-tribal and enthic violence, but that is a different subject than the one we were discussing. We were discussing the various fates of religious minorities, historically religious minorities have faired much better under Islamic rule than Christian rule.
Written “But also, it’s important to note that in most Muslim countries conversion is a Death Penalty offense. If not via the government itself, then by family members or gangs of Islamists. Try looking at any conversion story and you’ll see the same thing – if you’re a Muslim and you dare convert, you face ostricization or death.”
Written “Also, do you know the number of westerners that convert and then leave? You’d be surprised. Mosques aren’t all baklava and big dinners, as I’m sur you know. There’s a lot of lying that goes on there. Especially when what an Imam tells you directly contradicts what you’ve read in the book itself. (It happened to me)”
Sure, people convert then leave Islam. It is my experience that those who leave Islam after conversion are usually those who went extremists after their conversion. It is very hard to hold onto that kind of life, even for born Muslims, let alone converts. As to lying Imams, one cannot choose, and should not choose, a religion based upon the actions of some or even all of its followers. If this was proper grounds for choosing a religion I dare say there are NO religions worth following. All followers of all religions certainly fall far from the grace of God. Look at what Catholics have had to face. Based on your presumption everyone should leave the Catholic church because a substantial amount abuse children. I dont buy that idea. I converted to Islam on my own, before I had met any Muslims. I converted because of the merits of the religion and the way it spoke to my heart. It is my love for my religion that has seen my faith in it grow even with the trials of the Muslim community, and despite the sometimes evil and misguided people I face. It is my duty as a Muslim to speak up against these people, not to leave the religion.
Yes, and religious conversion has been banned in India by the radical Hindus as well. I can tell you from personal experience that Christians who convert to Islam, whether in the Middle East, or here in the USA, face similiar treatment from their families. I know a Indian Muslim convert from the Hindi religion who was forced to flee for his life. His conversion was a crime in his Indian state and his family vowed to kill him.
Written “Why are they leaving? Bethelem was 90% christian under Isreali rule. Christians have been leaving Bethelem in droves for the past decade. Why? Harrassment. Heck, even the Church of the Nativity was -desecrated- by Muslims. Where was the world-wide outcry?
If Americans had done that in Kerbala.. ”
Can you please provide me evidence for your claim that Bethlehem was 90% Christian under Israeli rule? When do you consider Israeli rule to have ended? I dont think it has. The Church of the Nativity was not desecrated, that was propaganda. The Church officials blammed the Israelies for the problems there. Given what the people in the Church had to go through I am surprised it made it as well as it did, Israelis using tank fire and setting fire to it. Americans did worse in Karbala and elsewhere, flattened dozens of mosques. Sorry. Besides, the association is hardly valid, Karbala is a Shi’a mosque, Palestinians are Sunni.
Many Christians are leaving Palestine, not because of Muslims, but because of the way the Israeli actions affect their every day life. By the way, if Christians are so beleagured as you claim, why have some of the most famous Palestinian resistance leaders been Christian? PFLP ring any bells for you? The Christian founded group has done suicide bombings and a few years ago killed the highest ranking minister ever assasinated by a Palestinian group. Ever heard of Hanan Ashrawi? Edward Said? Some of the best know Palestinian leaders are Christian! The first suicide bomber against the Israelis in Lebanon was Christian. Read up some.
Malik
Re(6): Largess?
Steve,
I would not waste bandwidth trying to compose a rational answer to this one …
Re(1): Largess?
Cavilling. This is quite clearly a case of religious hatred taken to insane extreme when a government would rather let their people die than accept help from Israel. It’s particularly egregious that Israel be snubbed for reaching out to help Muslims while Saudi Arabia can’t be bothered to help its Muslim neighbors in distress.
Steve
Re(6): Largess?
Malik,
There are murderers who killed their victims as teenagers who have been sent to death row but you would be stretching it to call them children. Likewise, there are murderers who are borderline retarded who have been executed, but they were not so mentally incapacitated that they could not plan and execute their crime and then attempt to escape. You are stretching the facts to make your case against the US. The facts are that most children who commit murder are confined until they are 21 and freed with a clean record. Most insane people who commit murder are confined to mental institutions.
No such ambiguity exists in Islamic countries which sever hands for theft.
Steve
Re(6): Largess?
Malik,
“I can tell you from personal experience that Christians who convert to Islam, whether in the Middle East, or here in the USA, face similiar treatment from their families. ”
Christians who convert to Islam in the USA face death threats from their families??? Huh? What??
Re(10): Largess?
Ok, VERY FEW people see 16 and 17 year olds as “children”. 16 years is the age of consent, by the way.
Of course the US isn’t perfect but if you want to talk about unjust imprisonment or capital punishment why bring up some obscure and rare case of a 17 year old murderer in the USA when people in other countries are being executed just for speaking their minds as matter of normal policy? There’s a difference of degree here, which you just can’t seem to grasp.
Re: Largess?
The Saudis supported Al Qaeda with $30 million per year, largely in private donations through the mosques. Comparing that to the $10 million they are willing to cough up for tsunami victims neatly illustrates their values. If only the Saudis were willing to pay as much money to save people as to kill them.
Steve
Largess?
all over this thread i see muslim country – muslim people – non muslim countries helping muslim countries… cant you guys be secular even for a second… non muslims dont count? there are only victims and lucky ones like you and me. Its for us to help.
– Indian Muslim
Re(1): Largess?
Steve,
You need to read your statements before you send them. You said “The Saudis supported Al Qaeda with $30 million per year, largely in private donations through the mosques.”
Keyword: private donations.
Then you say “Comparing that to the $10 million they are willing to cough up for tsunami victims neatly illustrates their values.”
Your missing key word: public(government) donation.
Two different ball games. I am sure, as we speak, hundreds of thousands are being raised in mosques in Saudi for relief efforts. You are confusing public(government) donations with private donations. As of yet I have yet to see a figure on private donations for victims coming from Saudi Arabia! Do you have some numbers we have not seen or is this just another excuse to bash all of the people of Saudi? I agree with you, the government of Saudi Arabia should have donated about 10 times what they did, but until we see numbers for the donations given from private Saudi sources you cannot jump the gun like this. You cannot use two sets of numbers concerning money coming from two different sources to try and come up with some judgement about the values of the entire Saudi people. Generalisations, again.
Malik
Re(2): Largess?
Steve writes “Cavilling. This is quite clearly a case of religious hatred taken to insane extreme when a government would rather let their people die than accept help from Israel. It’s particularly egregious that Israel be snubbed for reaching out to help Muslims while Saudi Arabia can’t be bothered to help its Muslim neighbors in distress. ”
Steve, what are you on about? This was the government of Sri Lanka we are talking about here. Muslims are a VERY small minority there, about 7%. How do you then blame the actions of the non Muslim government on Muslims? The majority of people in Sri Lanka are Buddhists and Hindi, are you saying it is Buddhist and Hindi hatred against Israel that is causing this?
Saudi Arabia has helped, with public(government donations), although I dont think they are nearly as high as they should be. The issue here is about refusing help from an army that is occupying a foriegn country, in violation of dozens of international laws and UN resolutions. Sri Lanka, a non Muslim country, has a right to make this choice.
You will use anything to attack Islam wont you? How you can sit there with a straight face and attack Islam because Sri Lanka, a non Muslim country, doesnt want the Israeli Army on its soil is beyond me.
It is also a bit interesting that you have made this a religious hatred issue. Do you have any proof that aid from Jewish organisations is also being refused? If not, then it is clear that this is not a case of hatred of anyone. Being Israeli doesnt mean being Jewish, and being Jewish doesnt mean being Israeli or even supporting Israel. It is sectarian to assume that when one has an issue with Israel one has an issue with Jews. Jews and Israel are not the same thing. Many of the most religious Jews completely deny the right of Israel to exist as being a violation of Jewish religious law and regularly protest with Palestinians. Do they then hate Jews as well? See Steve, when you generalise and forget all of the nice little inconsistancies and variations in life you are always going to get it wrong.
Malik
[Modified by: Malik (celticview) on January 04, 2005 02:32 PM]
Largess?
VERSE OF THE DAY: AFTER DIFFICULTY COMES RELIEF
“God puts no burden on any person beyond what He has given him. After a
difficulty, God will soon grant relief.”
The Holy Quran, 65:7
HADITH OF THE DAY: HELP ALLEVIATE SUFFERING
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “He who alleviates the
suffering of a brother (in this) world, God will alleviate his (suffering)
of the Day of Resurrection. He who finds relief for one who is hard
pressed, God will make things easy for him in the Hereafter.”
Sahih Muslim, Hadith 1245
Largess?
More on Pipes the extremist……
CO PROF SLAMS DANIEL PIPES ON INTERNMENT
A DANGEROUS ARGUMENT
Paul Campos, Rocky Mountain News, 1/4/05
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/news_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_86
_3442925,00.html
(Distributed by Scripps Howard News Service, http://www.shns.com)
Daniel Pipes, the well-known neoconservative intellectual and director of
the Middle East Forum, has just published an opinion piece in which he
implies that the wholesale relocation of American citizens of the Muslim
faith to internment camps might be a good idea.
Pipes doesn’t actually come right out and support internment camps for
American Muslims, but his article (published originally in The New York Sun
and reprinted in various other papers) casts a nostalgic glance back at the
internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II and hints that we
ought to consider similar steps in the context of the war on terrorism.
The immediate object of Pipes’ affections is a new book by Michelle Malkin,
In Defense of Internment, which applauds the roundup and imprisonment of
more than 120,000 ethnic Japanese, most of them American citizens, as a
reasonable security measure in time of war.
Malkin’s book is an odious exercise in revisionist history, with a
distinctly fascist tinge. She defends policies that have long been
considered completely indefensible, using arguments that are often absurd
on their face.
For instance, Malkin claims the previously uncontroversial view that the
internment of Japanese- Americans was driven by racism is actually a
product of left-wing distortions. Yet here is a typical quote from Gen.
John DeWitt, the main proponent and organizer of the internment: “The
Japanese race is an enemy race and while many second and third generation
Japanese, born on United States soil, possessed of United States
citizenship have become Americanized, the racial strains are undiluted. . .
. It therefore follows that along the Pacific Coast over 112,000 potential
enemies of Japanese extraction are at large today…”
Paul Campos is a professor of law at the University of Colorado. He can be
reached at paul.campos@colorado.edu
Re(2): Largess?
Malik,
The $30 million paid by Saudis to Al Qaeda was documented.
The $10 million promised by the Saudi government to tsunami victims is documented.
The millions raised by Saudis privately for tsunami victims is entirely your speculation.
The irony here is that you demand proof that no private Saudi donations have been made
while you offer no proof that any Saudi donations have been made. Why don’t you use
the same level of proof for both arguments?
If the Saudi experience in the Balkans is any guide, the Saudis view catastrophe as an excuse to extend their Wahhabi death cult at the expense of local Muslims. Until documented facts arrive to prove otherwise, the Saudis do indeed pay more for shedding blood than saving lives.
Steve
Re(3): Largess?
Steve writes “The $30 million paid by Saudis to Al Qaeda was documented.
The $10 million promised by the Saudi government to tsunami victims is documented.
The millions raised by Saudis privately for tsunami victims is entirely your speculation”
YOU make MY point for me. It is documented that PRIVATE sources donated monies to al Queda. But YOU compared that to the PUBLIC (not private) donations made to the victims of the flood. The speculation is entirely on your part. You are trying to compare private donations in one case with public donations in another case to make a point. My point is that this is not a valid comparison. When you get concrete numbers on private donations for the Tsunami then we can compare those to the private donations for al-Queda. Do you get it now?
Steve writes “The irony here is that you demand proof that no private Saudi donations have been made
while you offer no proof that any Saudi donations have been made. Why don’t you use
the same level of proof for both arguments? ”
No, the real irony is you do not have the first idea of what you are talking about. You are trying to compare public and private donations for two seperate incidents. This is not valid. It would only be semi-valid if you could provide us details for private donations made for both situations and public donations for both situations. You cannot because such information does not yet exist. That doesnt stop you from using faulty arugments to try and brand a whole religion and group of peoples. Your attempt to mix and match to try and come up with some reason to slam all Saudis is as nauseating as your consistant attempts to slam all Muslims and Islam.
Is this your only theme? Muslim/Islam=bad? You would make for a very uninteresting person to meet.
Malik
Re(5): Largess?
Written “Non-muslim missionaries have a harder time in Muslim lands because of legal or social restrictions on preaching. This does not exist or exists in very limited form in secular countries. In South Korea, the formerly majority Buddhist population has been reduced by half because of conversion to Christianity”
As is the same in India, Israel and other places. Why just blame this on Islam or Muslim countries? Laws against conversion were passed in India because so many people were leaving their native Hindi religion for Islam and Christianity. Islam, as a community, has a very poor missionary network. Can you imagine the converts if they had a well oiled system like many Christian sects?
Written “When the middle-east becomes more secular and Islamic clerics do not exercise such heavy-handed influence on public society, expect to see more missionaries and more converts. ”
Missionaries have been all over the Middle East for hundreds of years, when European countries ruled these nations. Hard to put it off on repressive laws when European powers were the law. Islam is such a simple and straight forward religion without many of the complicated twists and turns of Christianity. You will find it will not go far in Muslim countries.
Written “The Christian Palestinian population has declined significantly. 70% of the Arabs in the US are Christians, not Muslim. ”
The number is slightly over 50%. Do you have documentation that the main reason Christians leave their Middle Eastern homes is due to Muslim harrassment? Most Christian Arabs I know are Palestinian and left because of 1948 and Israeli harrassment.
Malik
Re(7): Largess?
Written “”I can tell you from personal experience that Christians who convert to Islam, whether in the Middle East, or here in the USA, face similiar treatment from their families. ”
Christians who convert to Islam in the USA face death threats from their families??? Huh? What?? ”
Yes, I have known some who have. I have known many more who have lost their whole families when they converted to Islam. Indian converts in India face the same issue. The intense issues between the religions in India can mean an Indian converting to Islam can loose his whole family, job, friends, everything, and worse.
Malik
Re(6): Largess?
Written “There just aren’t large amounts of Christains in the Middle East. I can count the Christain Bahraini’s I know on one hand and as you know there are no Christian Saudis. At least in an open sense. Jordan has about a 6% population, Lebanon has around 35% by far the most in the region, Algeria 1% Iraq around 2%, Yemen 1/2% Egypt 4-5%. Qatar 3% Tunsia 1%.
I don’t think any of these is a sizable amount. ”
I think those numbers are a bit off. Christians make up just less than 1/2 of Lebanon, and 15-20% of Palestine. Syria has a Christian community as do other countries in the area. Historically, they have been much better treated than Muslims in Christian lands. How many Muslims descended from those who lived in Spain are still there? 0% would be the proper answer, how much of the Jewish community in Spain, when ruled by Muslims, is still there? Nothing. History says it all. Why is this? Because Christians converted by the sword and murdered everyone who would not convert. Those Jews who werent murdered left, fled for the Islamic world. Fact, history, cannot get around it.
Malik
Largess?
In democracy you can hear various opinions. The fact one has an absurd opinion does not mean that such opinion is a fact or a policy. We can hear absurd opinions on nearly any account: pro and against whoever and whatever. For a column that says ‘a
Re(7): Largess?
Malik
Those numbers are fairly accurate. Look it up yourself.
Re(6): Largess?
Malik,
Written “As is the same in India, Israel and other places. Why just blame this on Islam or Muslim countries? “
Chill. The point was made because the discussion was about missionaries in Muslim countries. Missionaries also have difficulties elsewhere.
Written “Missionaries have been all over the Middle East for hundreds of years, when European countries ruled these nations. Hard to put it off on repressive laws when European powers were the law.�
European colonials did not rule the Middle-East for hundreds of year, Malik. Rule began around 1916 when the Brits and French wrote the Sykes-Pikot Agreement which called for the division of the Ottoman Empire into portions that would be ruled by them. Some areas like Saudi Arabia never came under direct European rule.
90 years is hardly enough time to change local codesadn attitudes entrenched in the middle-east for the past 1000. The British tried to wipe out suttee in India and it still goes on.
“Islam is such a simple and straight forward religion without many of the complicated twists and turns of Christianity. You will find it will not go far in Muslim countries. “
So Muslims are too dense to understand Christianity? I don’t think that’s true. There are other religions to follow if they find difficulty with Christianity. Buddhism also sends out missionaries. When given the social and legal freedom to switch religions, you’ll find a lot more people doing so, in whatever country.
Written “The number is slightly over 50%.�
No. Regarding religion of Arab-Americans. See http://www.aaiusa.org/demographics.htm and look under Religion. The source is the Census. Adding up the numbers, I came up with 66%, which is close enough to the 70% number I cited earlier(which I heard on the news)
Do you have documentation that the main reason Christians leave their Middle Eastern homes is due to Muslim harrassment? Most Christian Arabs I know are Palestinian and left because of 1948 and Israeli harrassment.�
See http://www.al-bushra.org/latpatra/cnewa.html for Palestinian Christians. The primary cause for their departure is the conflict, harassment by radical Muslims is one of the other reasons Quote; “Selected accounts of Christians expressing feelings of intimidation/persecution due to rise in Muslim extremism:
Muslims refusing to hire Christian workers or to sell property to Christians
Christian women describe increasing harassment from Muslim men.�
There was a recent article about Iraqi-Christians leaving Iraq because of Islamist harassment – I’ll have to find it.
I don’t know about the rest, but I’ll wager that most people emigrate because of economic reasons. Why Christians leave in proportionally greater numbers than Muslims, is a good question, but perhaps their economic level allows for travel.
Re(7): Largess?
[quote]Historically, they have been much better treated than Muslims in Christian lands.[/quote]
Malik,
This is a dubious statement. There was no legitimate mass migration of Muslims to Europe until recently, in part because of fatwas that ruled against living with infidels. Currently, many Muslim immigrants are living on European welfare at a higher standard than their previous home. What kind of welfare do Arab countries provide to Western immigrants who don’t particularly want to work for a living? Would that be zero?
[quote]How many Muslims descended from those who lived in Spain are still there? 0% would be the proper answer, …[/quote]
It’s kinda crazy to complain that the Spaniards drove all the Muslims out after they conquered and occupied their land. It’s like complaining that the Russians didn’t leave any Nazis in their country after WWII.
You are correct to say the Jews were largely driven from the West and found haven in the Middle East as long as they accepted an inferior status.
Steve
Re(7): Largess?
Malik,
Written “how much of the Jewish community in Spain, when ruled by Muslims, is still there? Nothing. History says it all. Why is this? Because Christians converted by the sword and murdered everyone who would not convert. Those Jews who werent murdered left, fled for the Islamic world. Fact, history, cannot get around it. ”
Ferdinand and Isabella gave their conquered subjects 3 months to leave if they did not want to convert. Most of them did not and headed for North Africa. Muslims and Jews were not murdered after the fall of Granada.
And by the way, the 11th-century Almoravids and the 12th-century Almohads in North Africa and Spain persecuted the Christians and the Jews. Fact, history, cannot get around it.
Re(4): Largess?
Malik,
Slice and dice it any way you want, public or private, but the money coming out of Saudi Arabia to do evil outweighs the money coming out to do good. You are dodging that issue. More incredibly, you claim that it is impossible to know what the Saudi private donations are when your rebuttal rests on your speculation that they are significant. If you state it is impossible to know how can you claim to know? You are arguing with yourself more than with me.
The Saudis funded Al Qaeda with $30 million per year. That is not speculation.
The Saudis promise to send $10 million to the tsunami victims. That is not speculation.
The amount, if any, of Saudi private donations to tsunami victims is pure speculation on your part.
Therefore, the money we know the Saudis send to terror outweighs the money the money we know they send for humanitarian relief.
The rest of your post you simply dodge the questions put to you. If the Saudis were good people who wanted to help, you would not need to do such flip flops to defend them. Their money would be on the table for all to see just like the United States and the rest of the civilized world.
Steve
Largess?
I feel there is another consideration which is more important than the monetary amount donated. Here in the west we send money to our independant aid organisations in the knowledge that it will be disbursed in the afflicted countries purely on the basis of need, with no other consideration taken into account. I can not over-state the importance of this principle.
I know nothing of the arrangements for the aid from Bahrain, but I have taken note that the contribution from KSA ($10M] will be distributed by the Saudi Embassies. It would be nice to hope that this charity would be available to all, with no strings attached. On the other hand it would also be nice if the cat would cook my dinner tonight.
Meggie
Re: Largess?
It is written ” I was alarmed to see that countries were refusing the Jewish gesture, When hate comes before the needs of people I worry. ”
Jewish aid has been refused? I understood it was Israeli aid that had been refused, not Jewish aid, two seperate things. All Jews are not Israeli and not all Israelis are Jews. As to refusing Israeli aid, the majority of the aid workers proposed were members of the Israeli Army, members of an army involved in one of the longest running military occupations in modern history, representatives of a government in violations of dozens of UN resolutions and often accused of gross and serious human rights violations.
It might surprise Americans, but the world does not share our unconditional support for Israel, and before anyone blames this on Muslims or Islam, Sri Lanka, which is where I believe this happened, has a very small Muslim minority.
Malik
Re(3): Largess?
It is written “What if the search for knowledge brings the Muslim away from the Koran? What if, by study of comparative religions, they find Allah lacking, and become, say, Christian, or even (dare I say it) Jewish. ”
It has happen from time to time, although my experience with Muslims and Islam shows me that even when Muslims leave or stop practicing Islam they seldom convert to other religions. Look at the hundreds of years of missionary work in Muslim lands and look at the reletively small amount of converts to other religions, yet look at what is basically no formal missionary work by Muslims in the West and look at the millions of Westerners that have converted to Islam.
Written “Why, then, is the death penalty prescribed for them? ”
I would guess it is the same for Jews as well, as evidenced in The Bible. Jews who left their religion were often slain, by God even.
Written “Why are non-muslims considered less-important? than muslims in matters of law? Dhimmitude is a unpleasant thing. ”
Economically and historically, non Muslims have a much better history in Muslim lands than the other way around. Care to tell us about the treament of Jews and Muslims in Europe, specifically Catholic Spain? Care to explain the forced conversion of Muslims and Jews and pogroms in which tens of thousands of Muslims and Jews were slaughtered by Christians? If Christians and Jews, facing forced conversions and other cruelties, why are the huge amounts of Christians still in Muslim lands in the Middle East? Why were there large and prosperous Jewish communities in the Middle East until 1948? Explain to us why similar Jewish and Muslim communities did not remain in Spain and Europe after the Christian conquest of Muslim lands there?
Written “If knowledge is so important to the religion, why are a large proportion of the billion mulsims in the world loathe to question their own religion? ”
I think if you believe this you do not know the range and scope of debate raging all over the Islamic world at this time, on all matters great and small. More generalisations.
Malik
Re(9): Largess?
Written “If you do the crime, then you suffer the punishment.”
Sorry, but as an American and as a Muslim, I refuse the idea that children should be put to death and that people mentally retarded should be put to death as well. Most of what you describe is not Islamic. As to murderers getting off easier than women who take off the hijab, I have never heard of a woman being put to death in Saudi for not wearing the hijab, have you? As to the “blood tax” as you call it, Islam has pretty much the same basic rules on this issues as do Jews and Judaism. The victims family has almost complete control over the punishment, often in Jewish and Muslim history a “blood tax” was asked instead of the death penalty to keep the peace between tribes, as often a death sentence would spark more violence. I wish the families of the victims of violent crime in the USA had as many rights as the victims do in places like Saudi Arabia.
Funny how many people use these rules to bash Islam, but they fail to realise that many of the same rules, if not more harsh, are included in their own Bible, they simply need to open it up more often.
Malik
Re(9): Largess?
Written “Secondly, no one sees 16 or 17 year old gangbangers as “children”. They are young adults.”
Nobody? So you speak for all Americans? Here is one American you do NOT speak for! As to the children caught up in this, are you claiming they are all gang bangers? Really? Have some proof for this before you start “spouting out these whoppers?”
Written “Dropping off-topic jabs while ignoring worse things in other countries makes me think you have a chip on your shoulder over something. ”
Not at all, I just dont have an attitude that because things are better here in the USA that our house is clean! I refuse to allow the corruption and violence in other countries blind me from the fact that we have serious issues of our own in this country and I refuse to point to other countries and point out their misery as a means to justify my refusal to look at, identify, and do something about the evils we have in this country.
When an American has to start pointing at places in the Middle East to say “look, we arent that bad,” you know it is serious. How about trying to compare ourselves to other countries in the Western world? How does our criminal policy and treatment of children and mentally ill people stack up against countries like Sweden, Holland or Germany?
Malik
Re(8): Largess?
Malik,
Would it be better that they simply walked free by paying a blood-tax?
Or perhaps, to walk free simply because they were ‘religious enough’ and memorized a book?
Or maybe because the president needed them for the new ‘army’?
If you do the crime, then you suffer the punishment. If the punishment is death – be aware that in the US, at least, there can be a large number of appeals that can take decades. And death comes swiftly without pain or blood. If there is a failing to the death penalty in the US it’s that it takes -too- long for the punishment to be applied.
Sadly, the same cannot be said about other countries. In fact, they’d put you to death for ‘morality’ crimes. Oddly enough, murderers get off easier in Saudi than a woman who dares take off that inhuman hot-cloth.
Re(3): Largess?
Written “And they monetarily support the ideology that will overthrow them. Sadly, the revolutionaries are worse than the monarchy. ”
The Saudis put down moderate support and encourage extremist support for several reasons. First of all there are competing factions within the Saudi royal family. Anyone wonder why King Fahd hasnt been replaced yet? He hasnt really had a role in affairs for years. He hasnt been replaced because there is no consensus in the Saudi family as to who will take over the government. There are fears of a serious split in the future.
The reason moderates are put down and extremists are supported is that it is much easier to put off reforms when one can say “we cannot reform, the only people pushing for change are the extremists”. The Saudis really fear a credible moderate opposition. So far a major one hasnt formed yet, but there are small groups working all around the world towards this goal.
Malik
Re(2): Largess?
Interesting question:
What if the search for knowledge brings the Muslim away from the Koran? What if, by study of comparative religions, they find Allah lacking, and become, say, Christian, or even (dare I say it) Jewish.
Why, then, is the death penalty prescribed for them?
If God wants you to seek out knowledge, but then orders punishment for expressing that knowledge, or changing an opinion, does that not inherently contradict his edicts?
For example: If there is no compulsion in religion, why did Mohammed order the Christians and the Jews out of the peninsula on his deathbed?
Why are non-muslims considered less-important? than muslims in matters of law? Dhimmitude is a unpleasant thing.
If knowledge is so important to the religion, why are a large proportion of the billion mulsims in the world loathe to question their own religion?
Largess?
S. CALIF. THAI MUSLIMS LAUNCH TSUNAMI RELIEF EFFORT
Mosque seeks to build homes for people on devastated island
(AZUSA, CA, 1/3/05) – Southern California Muslims of Thai heritage have
launched an emergency fundraising appeal for survivors of the recent
tsunami that struck Thailand, leaving thousands dead and many others
homeless or in need of relief supplies.
Masjid Al-Fatiha in Azusa, Calif., launched the relief effort to help the
people of Thailand’s Phi Phi Island, which was virtually wiped out by the
tsunami that hit coastal areas across South Asia on December 26.
Rahmat Phyakul, the religious leader (Imam) of Masjid Al-Fatiha, said he is
in direct contact with community leaders on Phi Phi Island who told him the
greatest need is for immediate supplies of food and water, followed by a
long-term need for new homes and boats for the island’s fisherman.
He added: “One Imam on the island has 250 tsunami survivors under his care,
mainly small children and women. Many of the surviving children do not have
immediate relatives who can care for them. A number of men are still
missing and feared dead. Unfortunately, due to the remote location of the
island, relief supplies have not arrived in sufficient quantities.”
Imam Phyakul said he has been told that each rebuilt home will cost $4,000.
He said the local Thai Muslim community has set a goal of rebuilding 50
homes.
DONATIONS MAY BE SENT TO: (Make check payable to the “Relief Fund of
Southern Thailand.”
Relief Fund of Southern Thailand
c/o Masjid Al-Fatiha
210 N. Citrus Avenue
Azusa, CA 91702
Donations may be wired to the following Trust Fund Account:
Bank of Whittier (Tel: 562-945-7553)
Routing Number: 122 239 542
Account Number: 1022 512
Beneficiary: Masjid Al-Fatiha
References: Relief Fund of Southern Thailand
Largess?
ISLAMIC FOUNDATION HAS RAISED $65,000 FOR TSUNAMI VICTIMS
Jo Mannies, Post-Dispatch, 12/1/05
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/metroeast/story/2E0A64A8E3
B8993D86256F7D000EC1CB?OpenDocument&Headline=Islamic+foundation+has+raised+$
65,000+for+Tsunami+victims+
With so many children among the tsunamis’ victims, it seemed fitting that
children here are among those seeking to help.
Eight-year-old Katherine Wolter and two friends – Kirston Doty, 10, and
Lara Yeast, 7 – were among a group of children who collected $151 in their
Frontenac neighborhood on Friday. On Saturday, the three girls brought the
money in a purple pitcher to an interfaith prayer service and fund-raiser
held at the headquarters for the Islamic Foundation of Greater St. Louis,
at 517 Weidman Road in west St. Louis County.
Belal Ahmed, 8, of Ellisville, carried to the podium his entire week’s
allowance of $5 to aid the cause.
About 150 people attended the event, co-sponsored by the foundation and the
Interfaith Partnership of Metropolitan St. Louis. Since Tuesday, the
foundation has raised more than $65,000, said foundation spokeswoman
Ghazala Hayat. The money is being forwarded to the Red Crescent-Red Cross,
she said.
The foundation is among several groups here collecting aid for the
countries in Asia and Africa hit hardest by last week’s tidal waves.
Chandra Gamlath, president of the local Sri Lanka Association, said his
group has collected $6,500 so far, and plans to donate most of that to a
medical aid effort run by Doctors Without Borders.
Gamlath emphasized that money and medical supplies are the only donations
being sought, because it’s too expensive to ship clothes and heavier items
overseas. It’s cheaper and more efficient to purchase such supplies near
the affected areas, he said.
Sri Lanka was among the countries reporting the most victims. But so far,
most of the region’s 80 or so Sri Lankan families are reporting that their
relatives back home appear to have survived, Gamlath said. On Saturday,
Gamlath was among those attending a special Buddhist service in Augusta in
memory of the victims.
At the Islamic Foundation’s interfaith service, attendees heard words or
written messages from local representatives for various religions,
reflecting the religious diversity of the devastated countries and the
victims. Behind the speakers, a large screen projected images of the
tsunamis’ destruction.
Among those in the audience was Maheen Malik, 46, of Chesterfield.
Originally from Pakistan, she’s now a U.S. citizen. Malik noted that her
native country was little affected by the tsunamis, but added that she was
pleased that the effort to help appeared to transcend religious and
geographic divisions around the globe.
“This is the type of calamity you read about in the Bible or the Quran,”
she said. “There are no words for it, it is so devastating.”
Contributions may be sent to:
Islamic Foundation of Greater St. Louis, 517 Weidman Road, Manchester, Mo.
63011.
Sri Lanka Association, 1456 Shagbark Court, Chesterfield, Mo. 63017…
Largess?
ISLAMIC RELIEF USA SENDS PLANE WITH 160,000 POUNDS OF EMERGENCY SUPPLIES
Islamic Relief USA sent an airplane filled with 160,000 pounds of emergency
aid materials to Indonesia. The shipment left for Jakarta, Indonesia from
from Salt Lake City, Utah on Saturday, January 1, 2005.
The supplies were shipped in cooperation with the Church of Jesus Christ of
Ladder-day Saints. Islamic Relief USA provided an air cargo charter flight
filled with goods from the Church’s welfare and humanitarian storehouses,
including medical supplies, food supplies, high-protein milk powder,
hygiene kits and soap.
The contents of the shipment include:
40,000 pounds of medical supplies:
surgical tools, medical devices, gloves, sponges, bandages, gowns, test
tubes, blood pressure cuffs, etc.
20,000 pounds of first aid supplies:
bandages, aspirin, disinfectants, etc.
28,000 individual hygiene kits:
soap, toothpaste, combs, washcloths, etc.
40,000 pounds of clothing and shoes
Islamic Relief Action in Indonesia
Islamic Relief began distributing emergency aid on December 29, and the
distribution is ongoing. Items distributed include mineral water, food,
oil, disinfectants, flashlights and candles.
Islamic Relief is providing immediate emergency assistance to approximately
50,000 displaced people (12,500 families) in the Aceh province. This
assistance includes shelter, repair for water and sanitation, food
distribution, education and agriculture projects.
Islamic Relief Action in Sri Lanka
Islamic Relief Worldwide is focusing relief efforts in the Eastern
Province, particularly in the Ampara district, where a needs assessment was
performed on December 30 and 31. Islamic Relief Worldwide is currently in
the process of distributing 1,000 hygiene kits. Relief efforts will also
include distribution of emergency supplies to 10,000 families,
reconstruction materials to 2,000 displaced families, as well as sanitation
supplies to over 50 camps.
Islamic Relief Action in India
IRW is working in Chennai, India with its partners to implement emergency
projects in the next few days.
Islamic Relief USA’s Efforts Covered Extensively in the Media
Islamic Relief
1919 W Magnolia Blvd
Burbank, CA 91506
(888) 479-4968
http://www.irw.org/
info@irw.org
Tax ID#: 95-4453134
Largess?
NJ MOSQUES RAISE $250,000 IN 24 HOURS FOR TSUNAMI VICTIMS
Associated Press, 1/3/05
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/state/ny-bc-nj–tsunami-njmosques0103jan03
,0,7572556.story?coll=ny-region-apnewjersey
NEWARK, N.J. – Less than 24 hours after appealing for help for victims of
the Asian tsunamis, New Jersey’s mosques raised $250,000.
The Majlis Ash-Shura of New Jersey, the state’s council of mosques, issued
a call for assistance Thursday. By the end of Friday afternoon prayers, the
$250,000 in cash was received, along with donations of clothing.
“Governments and people the world over are compelled by compassion to
assist in the relief effort,” said Yaser El-Menshawy, the council’s
chairman. “New Jersey’s Muslims have also answered the call to aid the
millions suffering and displaced by the worst natural disaster in recent
history.”
Imams across the state reminded their congregations that generosity and
giving to those in need are integral parts of Islam, he said.
The largest amounts were raised at Dar-ul-Islah in Teaneck ($55,000); the
Islamic Center of Passaic County, Paterson ($50,000); the Islamic Society
of Central Jersey, South Brunswick ($50,000); the Institute of Islamic
Studies, West Windsor ($25,000) and Masjid Al-Amaan, Middletown ($23,000).
Largess?
Those are private donations. As I understood Mahmood’s post, he was interested about _public_ money. If we count in _private_ donations we probably find out that populations are invariably more generous than their governments. Here in Italy we could send a phone sms message to a number set up by the Telecom company for the purpose. Each sms message (blank message) assigned 1 Euro out of the phone card of the sender.
In less than one week, ONLY these sms amounted to over 15 millions of Euros. Double than the whole public money sent by Saudi Arabia, and the same as Norway (thoug norway sent more – these figure change day by day).
So I think the issue was the public donations.
Of course, I also think it was limited to FUNDS – that is if the Usa send two carriers and these keep their elicopters flying back and fro 24hs a day, no one calculated the amount of public money that this costed.
So the topic was, i think: PUBLIC FUNDS.
Also, it should be kept in mind the RATIO: Public found/Per capita national wealth. It is very difficult to calculate all of this, so I think Mahmood’s idea was the most rational one: let’s count in only the PUBLIC funds directly set up as CASH.
I hope this helps
ciao
Re(5): Largess?
Steve writes “Slice and dice it any way you want, public or private, but the money coming out of Saudi Arabia to do evil outweighs the money coming out to do good. You are dodging that issue. More incredibly, you claim that it is impossible to know what the Saudi private donations are when your rebuttal rests on your speculation that they are significant. If you state it is impossible to know how can you claim to know? You are arguing with yourself more than with me. ”
We dont know what Saudi private donations are, that has been my point all along. You are trying to say, like in the above, that the money, private or public, given in Saudi usually goes to evil. How can you claim this when you dont have the first clue about how much is raised in Saudi, private and public, and where it goes to. If you have a link that outlines how much money, in total, has been raised in Saudi from both private and public sectors, then breaks it down as to where the money went, please let me know. But until then your claims that that the “moeny coming out of Saudi Arabia to do evil outwieghs the money coming out to do good” is based on nothing more than your hatred of an entire people.
Steve writes “The Saudis funded Al Qaeda with $30 million per year. That is not speculation. ” Yes……….PRIVATE funds!
Steve writes “The Saudis promise to send $10 million to the tsunami victims. That is not speculation” Yes…….PUBLIC funds! Do you not understand the difference between public and private funds? If so, why do you continue to compare the two as if they are comprable and then try to come up with some moral judgement about it?
Steve writes “Therefore, the money we know the Saudis send to terror outweighs the money the money we know they send for humanitarian relief” Your reasoning is faulty from the start. You do not have the whole picture, you do not have complete numbers, you are comparing two different sets of donations from two different sources. Do you not understand the difference between public and private sources? If you did you would not be making the comparisons that you are. They are not the same! Do you have the numbers for private funding for the tsunami victims? The only way you could possibly make a point here is if you compared the amount of private dontations given to al-Queda with the amount of private donations given to the Tsunami victims. You do not have this information. You are trying to compare private and public giving and it just doesnt work that way.
Steve writes “If the Saudis were good people who wanted to help, you would not need to do such flip flops to defend them. Their money would be on the table for all to see just like the United States and the rest of the civilized world. ”
It is not flip flopping to point out that your comparison is illogical. I would NEVER dare to say that I can come up with a generalisation about the entire American people based on the private giving for one event and the public giving on another event. I guess, using your solution, America should be nuked for the 80 odd billion it has given Israel? Your logic and bin Laden’s? One in the same!
Malik
Re(9): Largess?
Written ” I wonder what would be found if there was a long term, objective Koranic Archaology. How would Muslims feel if it turned out that Mohammed really did synthesize other religions to create Islam? Moses did to create Judaism!”
Every Muslim I know believes, and it is part of the religion actually, that Islam is NOT a new religion. Islam and Muslims readily admit there is not a religion that sprang from nothing. Islam indeed comes from Judaism, and after it Christianity. So you are worrying about an issue that doesnt exist. Muslims feel that Christianity, and Jesus, came to right the ways of the Jewish people, Muslims feel that the Prophet (PBUH) was sent to correct the errors of Christianity. They are all three branches of the same tree. So you are worrying about something which is already a given amoungst Muslims.
Besides, if what you worry about is true, why isnt this being noted in places where their is almost absolute freedom on these issues? Has the Muslim population in the USA faced a decline because now they can question these things? Hardly Has the Muslim population in the USA, free from the restrictions in the Middle East and elsewhere, changed or left their religion in any noticeable numbers? No.
Malik
Re(8): Largess?
It is written “Ferdinand and Isabella gave their conquered subjects 3 months to leave if they did not want to convert. Most of them did not and headed for North Africa. Muslims and Jews were not murdered after the fall of Granada. ”
Seems you have a bit to learn about the history of Spain:
“Ferdinand and Isabella appointed Tomás de Torquemada in 1481 to investigate and punish conversos  Jews and Moors (Muslims) who claimed to have “converted” to Catholicism but continued to practice their “former” religion in secret. Some disguised Jews had even been ordained as priests and even bishops. Detractors also called converted Jews Marranos, a pejorative word that can also be translated “pigs”. The authority of the Inquisition was supposed to reach only Christians, not Jews or Muslims, but since 1492, every Jew in the King’s states had been baptised (New Christians) or expelled. If they carried on with Jewish religion, they were sinful relapses (“fallen again”).”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition
The next tragic event in the persecution of Jews in Spain was the Inquisition. The Inquisition has its origin in the earliest beliefs of the Church, that Judaism was an abomination and a rejection of G-d’s chosen one. Jews who were forcibly converted and continued to practice Judaism were considered heretics and Judaizers and were tried in religious courts and punished for their heresy. From the earliest Jewish settlement in Spain to 1480, the number of converted Jews who were burnt at the stake by the Church were relatively few. This soon changed. In 1478 the Church authorized a powerful Church/State national Inquisition which would operate throughout Spain under the direction of Catholic monarches, Ferdinand and Isabella. Commencing in Seville in 1481, and later in other cities after trials, seven hundred conversos were burnt at the stake and by 1488 many thousands were tortured, punished, humiliated and others were reconciled to the church. The Inquisition continued for another years as did the autos de fe (burnings of unrepentant conversos at public spectacles), other punishment and confiscations of converso property.
The expulsion began on May 1 and by July 31, 1492 the last Jew had left Spain. The stated reason for the expulsion was to prevent the Jews from inflicting further injury upon the Christian faith and to prevent Jews from influencing the conversos.
Upon leaving Spain and later Portugal, a large number of Sephardim settled in the Ottoman Empire (Turkey and the Balkan countries) and others went to North Africa, the Middle East (including Palestine) and to Italy. The Ottoman Empire welcomed the Sephardim and permitted them to practice their faith openly.
During the Inquisition and after the expulsion, the conversos were forced to remain in Spain; intimidated by the ongoing Inquisition they eventually (with few exceptions) became extinct as practicing Jews. Some conversos managed to escape to the New World where they found the Inquisition waiting for them; a few others slipped through the net to Italy, Turkey, Palestine and North Africa. ”
http://home.earthlink.net/~etzahaim/sphist.html
Using the Spanish Inquisition to Attack Jews
In their search for incriminating evidence against the Jews, the authors even enlist the support of the Spanish Inquisition. “More than once, Jews were accused not just of being Jews but for slave dealing and sometimes for that alone. The Inquisitors charged subjects for either crime and frequently Jews were found guilty on both counts. Slave dealing and slavery and its connection with Judaism and Jews was offensive to the Spanish reformers.” The Spanish Inquisition brought about “a reign of terror throughout Europe” which was responsible for the impoverishment, exile, and death of countless Jews, Muslims, and “heretical” Christians. Jews were singled out for persecution because of their identity as Jews. Concepts of an inquisition and inquisitorial procedure lie deep in the roots of world history. Inquisitions were used during the decline of the Roman Empire until the Spanish Inquisition’s decline in the 19th century. The Inquisitions in both Spain and Portugal were run by both civil and church authorities in order to root out non-believers from a nation or religion.
http://www.geocities.com/iberianinquisition/
Malik
Re(8): Largess?
Malik,
“They will understand it very well, and this will be the very reason they will avoid it. Buddhism, like Christianity, will not find many follows from Muslims. Both religions have very serious issues at their base and neither are strictly monotheistic. ”
Almost everyone thinks the “other guy’s” religion has very serious issues at its base, an attitude not just limited to Muslims. Converts tend to be those drawn from the uncommitted.
Written: “But if Christians are so bad off in Muslim lands, as is contended here, how are they then so much better off financially that they can them leave whereas their supposed “Muslim oppressors” cannot do so? Odd. ”
I don’t know if Christian Arabs are financially better off than their Muslim counterparts. But the far higher proportion of Christian Arabs in the US does bring up interesting questions. Why more Christians than Muslims? Do they feel uncomfortable being a minority in their homelands? Or are they more likely to emigrate because of better incomes? Odd.
Largess?
Malik – every link and quote you shared about private donations were from American Muslims. I thought the debate with Steve was about the Saudi public forking over some cash.
Michele
–[b]S. CALIF. THAI MUSLIMS[/b] LAUNCH TSUNAMI RELIEF EFFORT
–ISLAMIC FOUNDATION HAS RAISED $65,000 FOR TSUNAMI VICTIMS [b](Missouri)[/b]
–[b]ISLAMIC RELIEF USA [/b]SENDS PLANE WITH 160,000 POUNDS OF EMERGENCY SUPPLIES
–[b]NJ MOSQUES[/b] RAISE $250,000 IN 24 HOURS FOR TSUNAMI VICTIMS
Re(6): Largess?
[quote]Malik: We are now putting American citizens in jail without trial, charge, or way to prove themselves innocent. When the terrorists force us into situations such as this, they are the winners.[/quote]
More nonsense.
Steve
Re(7): Largess?
Malik,
You said “Because Christians converted by the sword and murdered everyone who would not convert. Those Jews who werent murdered left, fled for the Islamic world. Fact, history, cannot get around it. ”
Just Christians converted by the sword, eh? Read up on some of the darker parts of Muslim history. No toleration was extended to the pagans of Arabia at the time of Muhammad. The only choice they had was death or Islam. In the seventh century in Armenia, the entire population of Euchaita was wiped out by Muslim invaders and a number of inhabitants were forced to accept Islam. In the 9th century, there were the massacres of Spanish Christians in and around Seville. In the 10th, the persecutions of non-Muslims under the caliph al Hakim are also documented… In India, in the Sind about 700 AD, Hajjaj, the Governor of Iraq, told his commander that – quote – “bring destruction on the unbelievers…[and] to invite and induce the infidels to accept the true creed, and belief in the unity of God… and whoever does not submit to Islam, treat him harshly and cause injury to him till he submits.” In the 9th century the pagans of Harran in Turkey had to choose between Islam and death. Armenian Christians suffered the worse under Muslim persecution. The caliph Walid I gathered together the nobles of Armenia in several churches and burned them to death. The rest were crucified and decapitated, and the women and children made into slaves. Forced conversions occurred, and that led to conflict in Iran in the 19th century. To escape persecution and the forced conversions many Zoroastrians fled to India.
Shall I go on?
-Aliandra
Re(8): Largess?
[quote]Buddhism, like Christianity, will not find many follows from Muslims. Both religions have very serious issues at their base and neither are strictly monotheistic. [/quote]
This shows a marked ignorance of both Buddhism and Christianity. By the same thought process, Islam is not monotheistic – despite exhortations to the contrary.
Buddism has no God in the Abrahmic sense. The path is toward personal enlightenment. ‘Buddhas’ are those who have reached that state. They are not all-powerful beings.
Christianity has one God with three aspects. The Koran shows a very strong ignorance of the meaning of Jesus (and Mary, oddly enough). Christians believe in -one- God, not three. Jesus, The Holy Ghost, and the Father are no different in form and function than Allah’s 99 ‘beautiful’ names. Or the Sefirot.
God’s state of existence is beyong the human ken. One or three or infinite – only an idiot can claim to have the only answer.
Re(8): Largess?
Aliandra, violence happens in all religions. Listing one religion’s violence will be responded to with another list regarding your (perceived) religion and it will just go on.
It’s probably best to get back onto the main topic of this thread, which is finding ways to help the unfortunates affected by the Asian tsunami without distinction as to their religious beliefs.
If however you wish to continue to debate this issue, you are more than welcome to in the forum, you can even start your own topic there.
Re(6): Largess?
Malik,
That’s quite an energetic attempt to cloud the argument. Your focus on the difference between public and private donations is irrelevant. Private money spends just like public money. The fact remains that Saudi Arabia’s documented contributions to terror outweigh their contributions to saving life. This is one symptom of a deeply sick and evil Saudi culture.
If there are Saudi donations to tsunami victims which are greater than their past donations to wage war against the world for their religion through Al Qaeda, present them. Malik, if as you say the Saudis are such great humanitarians stretching out their hands and opening their purses to help these poor unfortunate tsunami victims, why exactly are they keeping it a big secret?
It is far more likely that the primitive Saudis, who feel little obligation even to other Saudis outside their family, feel no obligation to help those outside their tribe. The ten million dollars donated is an expression of that lack of feeling, a piddling amount an effete Saudi prince might lose in a night of gambling.
Steve
Re(10): Largess?
[quote] Muslims feel that Christianity, and Jesus, came to right the ways of the Jewish people, Muslims feel that the Prophet (PBUH) was sent to correct the errors of Christianity. [/quote]
Only one of the two can be right, conincidentally. Islam has the advantage in that it came last – it can say anything it wants about Jesus. And in fact, since one of Mohammed’s wives was Christian, he got a good indication as to what it was all about. Interestingly enough, Christianity does warn about false prophets.
[quote]
I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. (Galations 1:6-9)[/quote]
But you can see that there are errors. The apocryphal child gospel of Thomas is reflected in Isa’s creation of birds from clay.
[quote]Has the Muslim population in the USA, free from the restrictions in the Middle East and elsewhere, changed or left their religion in any noticeable numbers? No.[/quote]
Actually, considering that the immigrant population tends to congregate in Muslim ‘ghettoes
Re(9): Largess?
Sorry, Mahmood. I was trying to prove exactly that, that violence happens in all religions. I should have said that in the beginning. The Malik poster seemed to point out that only Jews and Christians converted by force when none of us has clean hands.
I shall get off this us-vs-them topic.
-Aliandra
Re(7): Largess?
[b]Saudi triples aid for victims of Asian tsunamis[/b]
Tue Jan 4, 3:37 PM ET
RIYADH (AFP) – Saudi Arabia announced that it was increasing its aid to victims of the Asian tsunami disaster to 30 million dollars and would organize a telethon to raise more funds.
Given that the scale of the disaster and damage “has surpassed all expectations, royal orders have been issued to increase Saudi Arabia’s aid to the victims from 10 million dollars to 30 million dollars,” the official SPA news agency reported.
SPA reported earlier that King Fahd and Crown Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz, whose oil-rich country initially pledged 10 million dollars in emergency funds for the victims, had ordered a telethon to be staged by state television on Thursday.
Largess?
Erm … how much did the US public donate? and werent they called stingy in the beginning? and didnt that end up in a trip by Colin Powell and jeb Bush to the area? and then Bush 1, bush 2 and clinton making an appeal? with colin Powell bing quoted as saying we can show the moslem world what we are made of?
Bottom line – 10MM may have been too little for the government of saudi arabia. but the way that the us government has politicized this is also disgusting.
And steve, if the sri lankans dont want aid from israel – so be it – didnt new york also refuse a private donation from prince al waleed after 9-11? why make it a religious thing? it is a political thing. we all know that.
basically – the us is trying to kiss and make up with the world after the goodwill that bush squandered pre the iraq war. the saudis lost an opportunity to do exactly that. long live politics. and may the poor people who lost friends and families and their homes and lives in the tsunami have enough faith to keep on going ..
jj
Re: Largess?
welcome back, we missed you, and happy new year as well!
Re: Largess?
JJ,
Considering the debt the US is mired in, the tsumani countries should consider themselves lucky they’re getting a dime from the US government. Private donations from Americans are another matter.
Re(7): Largess?
Steve,
You were just made out to be a fool by the post following yours, Saudis give another 20 million. Your hatred is overwheling. It is odd how you can talk about Saudi hate and Saudi violence when your words seem so much like these “Wahabis” you profess to hate!
It is clear to all and sundry that you are a mirror copy of these people. You generalise, you hate blindingly, and it knows no bounds. Steve bin Laden, has a great ring to it.
Malik
Re(9): Largess?
Written “The Koran shows a very strong ignorance of the meaning of Jesus (and Mary, oddly enough). ”
No, it shows a different meaning than the one most modern Christians understand. The correct one, I would think. Not all Christians believed in the divinity of Christ or in the trinity. The ones who didnt slaughtered the ones who did.
Like one columnist said after 9/11, Jesus would feel much more at home in any mosque than he would in a modern Christian church.
Malik
Re(9): Largess?
Written “Converts tend to be those drawn from the uncommitted. ”
Not my experience. I have known many converts. I was raised very religious. Also does not explain the conversions to Islam amoungst Christian clergy.
Written “I don’t know if Christian Arabs are financially better off than their Muslim counterparts. But the far higher proportion of Christian Arabs in the US does bring up interesting questions. Why more Christians than Muslims? Do they feel uncomfortable being a minority in their homelands? Or are they more likely to emigrate because of better incomes? Odd. ”
It is my experience that Christians in the Middle East do rather well when compared to other minorities in these countries and other minorities around the world. Again, my experience. There has always been a large amount of Christian emmigration from the Middle East, hence the large Christian Arab population in the USA, but I think you will find that there numbers amoungst Middle Eastern immigrant communities outside the US is much smaller than in the USA. I think you would find, and I havent seen any proof on this, that amoungst Arab communities in Western Europe the numbers of Christians are much smaller, begging the question, why do they come to the US and not to other ex-pat Arab communities.
I am aware of the fact that there are isolated incidents of issues between Christians and Muslims in the Middle East, most seriously in Lebanon, where a Christian minority refused to share power, and in Egypt. But I think these cases are just that, isolated. I know many Arab Christians, here in the USA and in the Middle East and I have never heard of anyone leaving their country specifically due to issues with Muslims.
Malik
Re: Largess?
Jasra my dear,
First, let me welcome you back from where ever it was that you were. We could use a little estrogen here.
I disagree that the reflexive criticism of the US led to the Secretary of State and former presidents to visit the catastrophe zone. It was simply a cheap shot by the usual anti-American critics. It had nothing to do with anything. It’s just part of the white noise of constant brainless criticism of America. Of course America is going to contribute a boatload of money to victims of catastrophe. We always do. Of course, American leaders will visit the scene to show American commitment to relieve distress. We always do. There’s nothing out of the ordinary in our response.
It’s a nice gesture that Powell said we can use our response to this particular crisis to demonstrate our good will to the Muslim world, but it is an ineffective gesture. The radical Muslims who hate us are impervious to such displays and will continue to be so. Gratitude is not in their DNA. They do not live in the same objective reality as the rest of us but in their own malicious dream world where America is at war with the Muslim world everywhere, all the time, forever. However, even though a significant chunk of the Muslim world are hateful boneheads, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t help them. We should send aid because it’s the right thing to do without expecting any thanks nor even recognition. Powell is setting the level of expectation far too high. We can expect nothing from the radical Muslims. Nothing. They live to hate.
Mayor Giuliani did indeed return a ten million dollar check from the oily Saudi prince when he inferred that the September 11 attacks were justified. I don’t know of any strings tied to the aid offered by Israel to Sri Lanka. Do you? Their refusal of Israeli aid appears to the same old self-defeating Muslim religious hatred taken to ridiculous extreme. The Sri Lankans are simply fools.
The US response to the tsunami victims has nothing to do with Iraq or anything else. Any “goodwill” arising from Sep 11 was simply a mirage. We have no need to kiss and make up with the world. We have no transgressions for which we must apologize. Had there been no Sep 11, no Afghanistan, no Iraq, our response would have been exactly the same.
Steve
Re(11): Largess?
Written “Only one of the two can be right, conincidentally. Islam has the advantage in that it came last – it can say anything it wants about Jesus. And in fact, since one of Mohammed’s wives was Christian, he got a good indication as to what it was all about. Interestingly enough, Christianity does warn about false prophets. ”
One was Jewish as well. All three warn about false prophets and those who claim to speak for God. You must note that Christianity as we know it today is not as they knew it for hundreds of years after Jesus left. Many early Christians did not believe in the divinity of Christ or the trinity. They lost and were slaughtered. The New Testament itself poses some difficult issues for Christians, such as Jesus saying not not one jot or tittle of the old law shall change until earth and heaven come to pass, yet Paul changes one of them, eating pork, based on a dream he got from God. So who is right? The supposed son of God or Paul? They both cannot be right? No where in Jewish teaching do they ever expect a “son of God” to come. Such a thing would be blasphemy to their beliefs.
Written “Actually, considering that the immigrant population tends to congregate in Muslim ‘ghettoes
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Written “Ok, VERY FEW people see 16 and 17 year olds as “children”. 16 years is the age of consent, by the way.
Of course the US isn’t perfect but if you want to talk about unjust imprisonment or capital punishment why bring up some obscure and rare case of a 17 year old murderer in the USA when people in other countries are being executed just for speaking their minds as matter of normal policy? There’s a difference of degree here, which you just can’t seem to grasp. ”
I think you are off base when you claim that most people see 16 and 17 year olds as adults. I dont know many who do. That is why you cannot vote until 18, or own a weapon until 21.
As to what happens in other countries, I talk about it all of the time. The murder and other tragedies that are done by US backed dictators in the Middle East is awful. The difference here is that I am an American and I feel the duty to speak out for change in MY country!
Malik
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Earth to Steve: Sri Lanka is mostly hindus. Muslims are less than 10%. How can you flip their refusal of Israeli help at Muslims? A screw loose somewhere methinks…
Re(8): Largess?
Malik,
So now the Saudis have been publicly shamed into tripling their donation to thirty million bucks. That means they are now promising to donate as much to saving life this one time than they have donated every year to bloody terror.
You’re becoming quite the apologist for the despicable Saudi regime. Please do report back with those figures on private Saudi donations. Doubtless you’re confident the Saudis are turning their pockets inside out to help non-Muslim tsunami victims, right? And Crown Prince Abdullah will making a tour of the stricken areas bringing help, won’t he? Maybe even King Fahd will leave his palace in Spain to show his sympathy for the tsunami victims, dontcha think? Perhaps he could sell one of his yachts and give the proceeds to the Red Cross for distribution to those in need, huh?
Steve
Largess?
Written “The US does not put children or the mentally retarded to death. Iran does that (http://www.activistchat.com). In the US, the death sentence can also be appealed numerous times, and the chances of a truly innocent person being killed is slim. ”
I have already posted proof that people who commited crimes as children are and have been put to death in the USA, as have the mentally ill and retarded. I cannot help it if you refuse to accept or look at the proof.
Written “Funny how you instantly think that I’m Christian.
Sadly, Malik, you’re incorrect. The harsh Jewish law as per Leviticus is not part of Pauline Christianity and has not been part of mainstream Judaism for many centuries. ”
Yes, I am aware that Christianity and most of Judaism has long ago left their roots and their teachings for religious practices that have very little to do with those of their ancestors.
Written “Reason? The Torah is a historical document. The rules within are demonstrably God’s will for a specific time and place. ”
Then why are these rules enforced in Israel today as part of religious practice? You are aware that you face a fine in Israel if you open on the Sabbath eh? Why do rabbis, the keepers of Jewish law, play such a large and important role in Israeli law and crafting of policy? They use Jewish law to even decide who can and cannot convert to Judaism and under what circumstances can one become an Israeli citizen.
Written “The New Testament contains only two eternal commandments of God:
1) Love God with all your ability
2) Love your neighbor as you love yourself ”
Wow, the New Testament I read has Jesus saying “Not one jot or tittle of the old law shall change until earth and heaven come to pass”. Did he not really mean this? Was he joking? Or was he affirming the old laws as eternal? It would seem to me that his statement affirms the old laws until judgement day. Your take on this?
Malik
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Steve writes “Malik: We are now putting American citizens in jail without trial, charge, or way to prove themselves innocent. When the terrorists force us into situations such as this, they are the winners.
More nonsense.
Steve ”
You are unaware of the fact that the US has arrested US citizens, on US soil, and has held them for years without trial or charge? Really?
Malik
Re(8): Largess?
The largest Muslim nation today, Indonesia, never had an Islamic set foot into it, yet it converted willing. Point made.
Malik
Re(2): Largess?
Mahmood,
The initial report I saw said that Sri Lanka rebuffed the aide because they didn’t want to “upset” the Muslim minority in the country. That report came from the BBC. Now how accurate the report is or was is another issue. If it is true there is a screw loose methinks and it is in Sri Lanka.
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Steve, Malik is the last one to be an apologist for the Saudis. He himself and his family have been wronged by them, do you think he would side with them? I don’t see any indication that would support that in any of his posts, quite the reverse.
What he is with however are the Saudi people rather than the rulers, to which I think he is absolutely correct in categorising them as peace-loving people rather than your take of the vast majority of Saudi citizens hell-bent on world destruction.
Re(10): Largess?
Malik,
You write “Not my experience. I have known many converts. I was raised very religious. Also does not explain the conversions to Islam amoungst Christian clergy. ”
May not be your particular experience but it has been documented by researchers, and I say ‘most converts’. Back many years ago, when Sun Yun Moon was trying to win converts to his faith, he sent his missionaries into Christian religious gatherings to draw them into his fold. As it turns out, he found more recruits amongst the irrelegious and seculars, since the church folks were already committed in a serious way. And the early years of Christian expansion, the Christians found easier recruits among Hellenized Jews since Jews living near Jerusalem were more devout. Keeping in mind that Christianity back then was considered just another sect of Judaism. Another interesting item found by the research was that women were more likely to be drawn to new religions than men.
Re(2): Largess?
Mahmood,
It was the Muslim minority that demanded Sri Lanka break off diplomatic ties with Israel. That religious animosity appears to be driving this rejection of aid. It looks like the local Sri Lankans don’t want to inflame their Muslim minority by accepting help from Israel.
Steve
Re(3): Largess?
I don’t believe that Mark. Sri Lanka is not a Muslim country and it never put Muslim sensibilities in focus when deciding on anything. But even with that and assuming that they refused aid because of Muslim sensibilities then they are fucking idiots to refuse help at a time like this from anyone. That’s my personal belief, if people are dying, then they are honour-bound to accept help from wherever it comes from, with thanks.
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idiots. if that is true then they are way beyond idiots.
Re(1): Largess?
why thank you mahmood … hope you and the family had a great xmass and new years ..
JJ
Re(1): Largess?
And, please remind me how exactly the US has been mired in so much debt? whats that you say? iraqi war costs? sorry – i meant iraqi reconstruction costs? not good enough? errm – spreading democracy in the middle/third world/ backward countries cost without waiting for anyone to join a fundamental coalition?
Hmm. and is it pure coincidence that the US dollar is at an all time low and that exports have never been as good or as cheap?
Considering the debt the US is mired in, the US citizens should perhaps pay a visit and reassess the economic situation of their country – and perhaps maybe then the US government’s spending priorities might change ..
JJ
Re(4): Largess?
[b]Israel’s tsunami efforts get cool response[/b]
STEVE WEIZMAN
Associated Press
JERUSALEM – Israel has offered its hard-won expertise in handling disaster to Sri Lanka and India in the wake of Asia’s tsunami tragedy but it has met with a lukewarm response, Israeli officials said Friday.
Israel’s army sent 82 tons of medical and humanitarian aid to Sri Lanka, and Israel’s civilian rescue service, working with the Red Cross, dispatched a planeload of blood products. An additional 40 tons of supplies collected by private donors flew out Friday.
[b]But an offer to deploy 150 seasoned military medics and support personnel to set up field hospitals was rejected, Israeli security officials said on condition of anonymity.[/b]
Israel’s years of war with neighboring countries and bombing attacks by Palestinian suicide attackers have honed its rescue and recovery services and it has sent military medical teams to other countries hit by disaster, among them Turkey, Macedonia and Rwanda.
At the same time, however, Israel has come under harsh criticism in the international community for its tough response to the Palestinian uprising, and the sight of [b]Israeli army uniforms might touch a raw nerve, particularly in countries with a large Muslim population[/b].
Neither Israel nor Sri Lanka made any official comment on the island nation’s rejection of Israeli army medical teams. A military spokeswoman said only that after consultation with Israeli officials, there was a decision to scratch plans to send service personnel and to dispatch instead “appropriate” aid. She did not elaborate.
A senior Israeli Foreign Ministry official said help had also been offered to India. But the government in New Delhi was not interested at the moment, although that might change as the extent of its needs became clearer.
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Steve
Sri Lanka and India are Israels largest customers of military hardware. Just an FYI.
Re(2): Largess?
JJ,
The debt goes back for years, dear, it did not begin with Iraq.
The US’ spending priorities should definitely change. I am glad you agree. It’s not the US job to be the world’s policeman or the world’s ATM machine. The US should stop all financial aid to everyone, the UN, the World Bank, the IMF, poor countries, and so on. It’s time the world provided for itself anyway.
Let the American private sector do the donating. The Federal Treasury is running on empty.
Re(2): Largess?
[quote]US citizens should perhaps pay a visit and reassess the economic situation of their country – and perhaps maybe then the US government’s spending priorities might change [/quote]
Jasra
Well what do you know!! I have just been informed that I am to heading to Afganistan in a few weeks compliments of my little brother who is in Kabul. Would you care to join me in my visit and we can see first hand how the billions have been spent there?
Re(4): Largess?
Hmmm. It appears that Sri Lanka has an appetite for paradox.
Steve
Re(8): Largess?
Post your examples so that we may deconstruct them unmercifully, please.
Steve
Re(9): Largess?
Well, Malik, that’s one country converted peacefully to Islam.
Out of how many?
Steve
Re(2): Largess?
[quote]Jasra: And, please remind me how exactly the US has been mired in so much debt? whats that you say? iraqi war costs? sorry – i meant iraqi reconstruction costs? not good enough? errm – spreading democracy in the middle/third world/ backward countries cost without waiting for anyone to join a fundamental coalition? [/quote]
Jasra, my dear,
The cost of about a month of conventional combat in Operations Iraqi Freedom was about $63 billion, about $220 per American. That’s about the price of a good pair of shoes.
The financial cost of unconventional combat and reconstruction in Iraq is estimated to be about $70 billion per year. That’s about how much Americans spend on popcorn every year.
The total cost of the war in Iraq from 2003 through January 2005 is estimated at $147 billion. Those nearly two years of cost represent about 1.4% of our $11 trillion gross domestic product per year, or about 2% of our $7.6 trillion national debt. The cost of the war in Iraq is insignificant in its effect on our economy.
The US has acquired its debt by spending more than it takes in, specifically to fund entitlements like social security and other welfare programs. For example, the US spent $255 billion on Medicare in 2004. Basically, we have debt because the politicians are buying our votes with our money.
Steve
Re(7): Largess?
Written “So Muslims are too dense to understand Christianity? I don’t think that’s true. There are other religions to follow if they find difficulty with Christianity. Buddhism also sends out missionaries. When given the social and legal freedom to switch religions, you’ll find a lot more people doing so, in whatever country.”
I never said they were too dense to understand Christianity. They will understand it very well, and this will be the very reason they will avoid it. Buddhism, like Christianity, will not find many follows from Muslims. Both religions have very serious issues at their base and neither are strictly monotheistic.
Written “I don’t know about the rest, but I’ll wager that most people emigrate because of economic reasons. Why Christians leave in proportionally greater numbers than Muslims, is a good question, but perhaps their economic level allows for travel. ”
Most people do travel for economic reasons. But if Christians are so bad off in Muslim lands, as is contended here, how are they then so much better off financially that they can them leave whereas their supposed “Muslim oppressors” cannot do so? Odd.
Malik
Re: Largess?
Written “Malik – every link and quote you shared about private donations were from American Muslims. I thought the debate with Steve was about the Saudi public forking over some cash.
Michele ”
It would seem you missed the point as well. My posts concerning American Muslims had nothing to do with Steve’s posts. They served to highlight that not all Muslims are the same, as some would contend, and that they do nothing. More importantly, I hope that some would donate funds.
As to Steve, the debate with him was why he was trying to compare two seperate numbers, on public and private donations, on two seperate issues, to try and make an overall judgement about Saudi morality. Unacceptable and flawed.
Malik
Re(8): Largess?
They are not talking about India.
They are talking about the US. And certainly, converting to what most religious Christians consider a ‘false prophet’ religion (as per Revelations) will cause tensions.
Think of it this way – Conversion to Christianity in Saudi is punishable by death. That’s the law of the land.
The Government of the US has no penalty like that. AT ALL.
You speak of intellectual freedom, Malik. I wonder, if there were such things in the Middle East, would Islam undergo a weakening? Biblical archaeology has shed light on a lot of the historical dillemmas of Christianity and Judaism. I wonder what would be found if there was a long term, objective Koranic Archaology. How would Muslims feel if it turned out that Mohammed really did synthesize other religions to create Islam? Moses did to create Judaism! (Ankheaton’s Sun God was a very large component of YHWH)
Ethan
Re(7): Largess?
[quote]There was a recent article about Iraqi-Christians leaving Iraq because of Islamist harassment – I’ll have to find it.[/quote]
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0713/p07s01-woiq.html
Re(4): Largess?
JJ,
You say ” you will see that the US actually spends less on foriegn aid than most other countries … and much more on defense than numbers 2 and 3 combined.”
Defense spending is authorized by the American Constitution, foreign aid is not.
Re(5): Largess?
Perhaps Sri Lanka plays both sides but then all nations do to some extent. In 2000 Sri Lanka and Israel kissed and made up on the diplomatic front. I would be willing to bet that the sale of military supplies played a role in the restoration of diplomatic ties.
That being said it is important to seperate the people of Sri Lanka from the actions or percieved actions of the government. Or any people from any country for that matter. Governmental postions often don’t mirror that of those of the people on the street. Anyone out there in MTV land from Sri Lanka and can provide some background on this?
Israel is still providing aide and keeping MUM about the snub for the most part and in the end isn’t that the most important thing?
Re(1): Largess?
Dear Steve,
Thanks very much for such a warm welcome back. Although, it may not have been estrogen that you may have missed, but some very basic common sense – which with age, I am realizing is quite uncommon.
But – I am glad to see that nothing much has changed in the world .. you are as much of a trouble maker as always – and have managed to find new victims to convert to the Steve way of thinking …
Hope you had some great holidays and wishing you all the best for the new year.
JJ
Re(3): Largess?
Anon,
If you do a wee bit of googling, you will see that the US actually spends less on foriegn aid than most other countries … and much more on defense than numbers 2 and 3 combined.
JJ
Re: Largess?
And, did the cat have a culinary future to write home about?
Re(5): Largess?
sorry ….but is the point that you are making that foreign aid is not part of democratic principles?
JJ
Re(10): Largess?
Steve ..
The US was also shamed into donating more after they were insulted as being ‘stingy’. At least both countries reacted quickly to what was originally viewed as innaporpriate responses.
Mahmood’s right – Malik is hardly an apologist for saudi Arabia. but you are in danger of losing ur objectivity 100 fold ..
JJ
Re(6): Largess?
JJ,
Government takes money from the taxpayer and gives it someone else the government deems more worthy. That’s not democratic, that’s collectivist. If charity were a government function, it would have been written into our constitution.
You don’t get points in heaven for being forced to help someone else. Real charity is voluntary.
Trackback :: 0.25 Billion SAR Donated By Humbles In Saudi
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Once again, Oil-rich Arab states hit for ‘humble’ donations. Watching the Saudi TV channels just now, their full day donation programs, I was shocked by the number donated until now. 250,000,000.00 SAR = 66,664,891.78 USD, and still rising. This prov…
Re(2): Largess?
JJ,
I am shocked, shocked to read that your self-professed common sense has come with age when I have always visualized you as a young and fresh-faced thing.
“Troublemaker” seems too harsh, Jasra. I prefer “gadfly” in the Socratic sense.
I must admit there do seem to be more posters defending America than in the old lonely days when I first posted but methinks they are no converts to Stevenism but rather longtime lurkers lured into the light at last. A hat tip to them in appreciation.
Happy holiday wishes backatcha, JJ. Thank goodness they have gone and taken their many temptations with them which I am far too weak to withstand.
Steve
Re(4): Largess?
Muslims make up some 7% of Sri Lanka. It is not reasonable to think that their influence made up the mind of the other 93% of Sri Lankans. Israeli is not popular in most of the world, to include the vast majority of the Christian world. The disgust the world has with Israeli policy and actions has nothing to do with religion.
Malik
Re(1): Largess?
Germany has just announced it will give almost 800 million dollars over the space of a couple of years. Kind of blows almost everyone else out of the water. France, it would seem, gives more percentage wise of GDP, than any country in the west, as announced on BBC. Interesting…..Saudi government gives 30 million, and as of now, 66 million given just on the daily telethon. Awesome numbers, some people here need to change their thinking a bit.
Malik
Re(9): Largess?
Steve writes “So now the Saudis have been publicly shamed into tripling their donation to thirty million bucks. That means they are now promising to donate as much to saving life this one time than they have donated every year to bloody terror. ”
Funny, you claimed early that the US wasnt shamed into giving more money when it initially offered next to nothing, but when thye Saudis do it, it is because of shame. Why the double standard? Also, interesting that the Saudi public has given almost 70 million dollars in just one day via the telethon. Anything like that happen in the USA?
Malik
Re(10): Largess?
Steve writes “Well, Malik, that’s one country converted peacefully to Islam.
Out of how many?
Steve ”
Once again Steve wants to accuse others of what his own people did! How many countries willingly converted to Christianity? Those in glass houses should not toss stones.
Malik
Re(9): Largess?
Steve writes “Post your examples so that we may deconstruct them unmercifully, please.
Steve
”
Jose Pedilla, American born citizen, arrested in the USA. He has yet to face any charge, he has been held for more than two years now. His case is slowly going through the courts. He has not been charged, he has not been indicted. He has not been given due process. His detention, indefinate, without charge, is a violation of the US constitution.
I know you are going to talk about what a scumbag you think he is, or what you think he was going to do. None of this matters. He is an American citizen and has a right to a trial. Put up, or shut up. Either they can make and prove charges against him or they cannot.
Malik
Re(2): Largess?
Bravo for Germany for it’s giant contribution. If you outdo the US in charitable contributions, you have really done something. I’m happy to see the French put out cash, too, though the BBC’s desperate attempt to puff up its contribution by pointing out its small GDP seems kinda lame. But whatever, it’s money gone to a good cause.
Likewise the Saudis should be commended for coughing up 66 million bucks in a telethon to help tsunami victims, a hopeful sign that they wish to join the human race rather than make war on it. However that $66M is only 61% of the $109 million they cheerfully contributed to support suicide bombings in an April 2002 terror telethon. Perhaps one day the Saudi appetite for good deeds will outweigh their thirst for blood, but that day has not yet come.
http://www.stevequayle.com/News.alert/Terrorism/020603.Saudi.terror.links.html
Steve
Re(11): Largess?
I guess answering my question would be awfully embarassing, wouldn’t it, Malik? I don’t blame you for dodging it and trying to change the subject to something else, anything else, anything other than answering it straightforwardly and honestly.
Steve
Trackback :: Lest we forget…
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Lest we forget
Re(7): Largess?
I am not going to disgree with you.
My point was merely a relative one – compared to the rest of the world – the US government gives out significantly less foriegn aid per capita than its even its western compatriots. That says something significant about how the US government views the rest of the world vs other countries.
Strange that whe it comes to imposing American values like democracy, the US is not afriad of ‘going it alone’. But when it comes to executing on these values in terms of foriegn aid, the US not only gives the lead to other countries – but takes its time getting there ..
somethin ain’t right in the land of benjamin franklin .. the values and the reality dont add up ..
JJ
Re(10): Largess?
Malik
Pedilla looks a lot like the mysterious John Doe #2 from the OKC bombing. Scary how much he looks like him…
Yep he is an American and he has a right to trial. Charge him and keep him locked up or let him go.
Re(8): Largess?
JJ,
Foreign aid is mostly bribes to foreign governments. Doubtless, countries like France and Germany may beat us at that. The Oil For Food scandal demonstrates that France and Russian are enthusiastic recipients of bribes from Saddam. They probably cough up public money to foreign governments so they can get some back under the table. I thought people like you didn’t want us propping up dictatorships. Why are you suddenly so fond of governments who do exactly that with foreign aid?
If you want to talk about charitable giving to deserving recipients, America certainly holds it own. We are throwing in hundreds of millions of bucks to help the tsunami victims and you are complaining that America is not giving enough? You’re playing numbers games here, trying to find some angle to minimize America’s contribution to the world. I also think you are also mixing up foreign aid and charity.
It’s hard to understand what you mean by giving out aid too slow. Are those squadrons of French helicopters flying in aid to Indonesia from fleets of German aircraft carriers? The fact is that the US has gotten the goods to the victims the fastest by redirecting our navy to help. While our choppers are unloading pallets of food and water to desperate crowds, the UN is renting suites in five star hotels and holding meetings to talk about what they might do. If there is some other country that beat our Navy choppers to the disaster area, please name them.
Jasra, you might want to take a breath, splash some cold water on your face, and ask yourself why you are straining so hard to criticize the massive American relief effort. Why is it so difficult to accept the reality that America is doing good on a vast scale for these poor unfortunates?
Steve
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[quote]Malik: “People have been executed for crimes that they committed when they were children, in clear violation of international human rights law. As at June 1998, there were 70 people on death row for offences committed when they were under 18 years of age.” [/quote]
Such murderers would include people such as Jose Martinez High, 16, sentenced to death in 1978 in Georgia for his part in the kidnapping of a man and his 11-year-old stepson, and the murder of the boy. On the way to where the killing took place, Jose Martinez High repeatedly asked the boy “are you ready to die? Do you want to die? Well, you’re going to die.” The two captives were then made to lie face down on the ground and shot in the head. The stepfather survived.
Christopher Simmons, 17, decided to kill somebody for fun along with his two buddies. On September 8, 1993 at about 2 AM, Simmons and his friends invaded the home of Mrs. Shirley Crook, kidnapped her, bound her, walked her to a nearby railroad trestle, and tossed her off into the river, killing her. He was sentenced to death in Missouri.
Kevin Stanford, 17, and two underage buddies robbed a Checker gasoline station on Cane Run Road in southwestern Jefferson County, Kentucky the evening of January 7, 1981. Stanford and a buddy took turns raping and sodomizing the clerk, Barbel Poore, in the restroom. To eliminate Barbel as a witness, they drove her in her own car to an isolated area and shot her. Stanford was sentenced to death in 1982.
To be blunt, these murderers deserve to die for their crimes. They are exactly the kind of juvenile superpredator for which the death penalty is meant.
However, the bulk of teenage killers do not receive the death penalty. For example, John Lee Malvo given life in prison after blowing people’s brains out all over Washington while he was 16. Judges and juries take the special circumstances of each crime into consideration and mete out the appropriate sentences. They considered Malvo to be too heavily under the influence of his murderous adult companion to be put to death. However, juries are not move to spare savage 16 year olds who rape and kill young mothers in their homes and blow out the brains of their children.
But to be fair, please do present your arguments why they should be spared. I’m certain I would enjoy hearing why other countries feel teenaged child killers and mass murderers should be exempt from the death penalty in the US.
Steve
Re(6): Largess?
[quote]JJ: sorry ….but is the point that you are making that foreign aid is not part of democratic principles?[/quote]
That’s right, JJ. Taking money from taxpayers and giving it away to Third World thug regimes is not a democratic principle. A pragmatic necessity for dealing with unprincipled and corrupt regimes, but not a part of the democratic process.
Steve
Re(11): Largess?
JJ,
That’s just plain nonsense.
JJ, what if a friend called you up one night and said his car broke down and you paid fifty bucks to have his car towed to a garage. The next day, the mechanic said the head gasket was blown and needed a thousand bucks to fix. You pay it because your friend can’t. Would it then be fair to castigate you for not offering the thousand bucks the night your friend called you? Do you really think you were stingy? Or quite the opposite?
When the US got the first reports of the catastrophe, it got some money going immediately to the victims for the obvious aid. It also redirected the navy to render aid immediately, luckily for the victims. They were the first to get there with substantial amounts of aid. That is a substantial contribution. As the scope of the catastrophe became clear, a greater amount of aid was cleared and sent on its way.
Basically, you are criticizing the US for sending a few millions fast before the main body of money was sent. It’s hardly an objective criticism of the US. However it is typical of the relentless and unfair criticism of the US that comes from the Middle East, which seeks to cast every action, no matter how good, in a bad light.
You’re becoming unfair, JJ. That’s not like you.
Steve
Re(3): Largess?
Malik,
Please read the article posted below by Bonsaimark that lays out the sad particulars that Sri Lankan officials did not want their Muslims to be inflamed by the sight of Israelis in uniform in their country.
As usual, you are posting from ignorance and seek to project the religious hatred radical Muslims feel onto others. It is disengenuous for you deny such well-established violent intolerance by the fundamentalist Muslims and hardly credible to any reader. If such behavior was not indefensible, you would not need to resort to such a dishonest defense.
Steve
Re(10): Largess?
Malik
The US has a history of sending humanitarian relief for world disasters. The Saudis have a history of sending terrorists to create world disasters.
Private US donations to the tsunami victims has now passed $337 million and is still growing.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1518&ncid=1518&e=2&u=/afp/20050108/bs_afp/asiaquakeaid_050108162458
We did not need to wait for a telethon to prompt us to give. Americans spontaneously gave. Many, perhaps most organizations, in the US are soliciting funds from their members. My company has set up a fund to which we can contribute, as have many companies. I doubt the giving has even hit full stride yet.
Once again, you take the anti-American tack and are shown to be wrong.
Steve
Re(10): Largess?
It sounds like a love-hate thing, Mahmood. Malik has a grievance against the Saudi government (don’t we all?), yet at the same time he feels compelled to defend them, presumably a reflexive need to defend all things Islamic, regardless of merit.
As for the Saudi people, Mahmood, I have yet to see one of them stand up and publicly reject the skyjackers as evil-doers or to condemn the Wahhabi jihad against the world. Malik says there is a large community of Saudi expatriates right here in Washington, DC. They are quiet as mice, not voicing any public criticism of Wahhabi terror. That looks like passive support to me.
From everything I read, the majority of Saudi people support the Wahhabi jihad against the world, even celebrating beheadings and other murders of Westerners, particularly Americans. The only dissent Saudis make is that the government is not Wahhabi enough. I am also impressed that in one of the most tightly controlled authoritarian regimes in the world, Al Qaeda has no problem finding weapons, Saudi military uniforms, cars, and safe houses. They move around without problem. They even walk away from crime scenes covered in blood right through the police cordons and nobody seems to take notice of where they go.
I’m also impressed by the number of peaceful Saudis who trek to Iraq to become suicide bombers, hoping to kill an American, especially the peaceful Saudi medical student who blew up a tent full of our troops. And I am very impressed by the fifteen peaceful Saudis who killed three thousand Americans to the applause of the peaceful Saudi people.
Steve
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Re(8): Largess?
JJ
The GDP number so often quoted in regards to the US GDP does not take into account donations to Food Aid (of which the US is the largest donor), contributions to the IMF,and World Bank. It does not include the private sector, which when added together with all of the above, makes the US the largest per capita donor in the world.
The US government is not a charitable institution. It does not owe money to anybody.
Plenty of countries could use some democracy but the US isn’t imposing it on them. As for the rest of your sentence, that is totally untrue.
You’re absolutely correct. Ben Franklin would be appalled that the US government is giving money to other countries when there are plenty of needy Americans who should be taken care of first.
Re(11): Largess?
Malik,
Most of the people of the early Roman empire were converted peacefully. Also the millions of CHristians in China, India, South Korea, etc …
How Stupid Can You Get Award
Well, here is the roundup of Stupid Tsunami Opinions From The Middle East, courtesy of MEMRI:
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD84205
Ibrahim Al-Bashar, an advisor to Saudi Arabia’s Justice Minister and a typical Saudi nutcase, says the countries hit by the tsunami deserved it for being populated by liars, sinners, and infidels. That may come as a surprise to Indonesia, which didn’t think it was a country of infidels but Muslims. However, to the hate-mongering Saudis anybody who is not a Wahhabi is an infidel, so I guess the Indonesians were wrong. All that praying to Mecca was in vain. They might as well emigrate to Israel.
Saudi Professor Sheikh Fawzan Al-Fawzan, a professor at Al-Imam University for Saudi students majoring in Stupidity, says the tsunami was punishment for all those infidels fornicating at Christmas. Now this really pisses me off. All the infidels are fornicating at Christmas, AND I AM THE LAST TO HEAR ABOUT IT?! Was there a memo I missed or what? Why was I left out? Somebody’s going to get a blazing piece of my mind, let me tell you. If all the infidels are gathered in one big fornication-fest, I at least deserve an invitation.
Brain Dead Saudi Cleric Muhammad Al-Munajjid chimes in with the same drivel about Allah’s wrath on the infidels vacationing in tsunami land and whines: “Why do we want to be like them, with their holidays, their forbidden things, and their heresy?” First Answer: Freedom. Second Answer: So that idiots like you, spewing nonsense, are not the only thing playing on TV in Saudi Arabia. The real question is why would anyone want to be like Wahhabi barbarians, wallowing in religious hate, and yearning to return to the 13th century?
To my surprise, we must leave Saudi Arabia for the stupidest opinion of all and go to the more imaginative Egypt, where genius correspondent Mahmoud Bakri writes in the the Egyptian nationalist weekly Al-Usbu’ the results of his investigation that claims the earthquake and tsunami in Asia were caused by joint nuclear testing by the U.S., Israel, and India: “Was [the earthquake] caused by American, Israeli, and Indian nuclear testing on ‘the day of horror?’ Why did the ‘Ring of Fire’ explode?” Yes, that’s right, America is making tsunamis to wreak havoc on the world. Diabolically clever of us, isn’t it? I just wish we would have thought of this tsunami gimmick before we invaded Iraq. Instead of sending tanks, artillery, and infantry, we could have just washed Iraq clean with a tsunami.
So Egypt holds the prize for the prestigious Steve The American’s “How Stupid Can You Get” Award, but I’m still holding out hope for the Saudis to dig deep and snatch victory from defeat with a wild and woolly whopper. If the Saudis can claim America invaded Iraq to sell organs harvested from dead Iraqis, I feel confident they are capable of the kind of Big Tsunumi Lie that can win the big prize.
I invite you all to submit suitable entries to help bring the HSCYG back to Riyadh, Home Of The Whopper, where it belongs.
Steve
[Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on January 10, 2005 12:46 PM]
[Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on January 10, 2005 02:42 PM]
Re: Largess?
I don’t have a link but someone, Egypt maybe, had also added Australia to the list of those responsible. I’m kind of stunned that it took so long for the US to be blamed.
I’m also waiting for someone to claim that 3000 Jewish tourists did not go to those beaches that day.
Re: Largess?
Oh brother….
Re(1): Largess?
What is worse is many people BELIEVE the shit that is being fed to them.
Re(12): Largess?
[quote]Malik: As to what happens in other countries, I talk about it all of the time. The murder and other tragedies that are done by US backed dictators in the Middle East is awful. The difference here is that I am an American and I feel the duty to speak out for change in MY country! [/quote]
Are you an American at heart, Malik? After reading your relentless and dishonest criticism of America for weeks, it appears that you feel being Muslim and being American are two self-exclusive identities. Your heart is full of treason for the country that provides you so much freedom to slander it.
This particular argument is typical of your rhetorical method. First, you assume America is wrong, whatever the topic. To make your argument, you look for some marginal anecdote and seek to generalize it to the whole. In this case, you take the examples of 16 and 17 year old murderers, conveniently omitting the gruesome particulars of their bloody crimes, and dishonestly generalize their death sentences to the whole of juvenile killers in the US. The clear inference you try to make is that any child from 1 to 18 years of age who kills somebody is sentenced to death when the majority are jailed. Only gruesomely exceptional cases of teenagers merit the death penalty, and rightly so. You have to stretch these anecdotes to the breaking point to make your anti-American propaganda points.
You would not need to resort to such dishonesty if the facts were on your side. Instead you seek to connect every evil act in the world back to America, no matter how convuluted or circuitous the route you must take. Explaining your slander as patriotism is the most absurd assertion of them all, merely proving the old adage that patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels.
Steve
Why do we want to bother with this? We all know you Americans will do everything.
Here is an interesting perspective on the relief efforts for the tsunami victims in Indonesia et al by a group of conservative US foreign service officers who call their blog “The Diplomad”: http://diplomadic.blogspot.com/
They are quite critical of the blowhard do-nothing UN bureaucrats and also bring up another point that is quite depressing: The West apparently cares more about the plight of the tsunami victims than their own governments, who appear indifferent:
“In Western countries, we see not only governments pledging sizable sums of money, but private individuals, as well. I can’t count, for example, the number of letters, emails, and calls we have received from private Americans wanting to help in anyway they can to save lives. All across America, Australia, and Europe private citizens have raised enormous sums for tsunami relief. Local branches of American companies have raised large amounts of money and donated expensive machinery and other supplies to the effort. At the Embassy, we have seen American staff voluntarily cancel leave plans (often at considerable financial cost); cut short vacations; and volunteer for duties such as manning phones in our 24 hr. opcenter; helping load and unload trucks and C-130s; or spending days working and sleeping under exceptionally grim conditions in the areas most affected. And, of course, Australian and American military personnel, at great monetary cost and personal risk, have led the way in the massive relief effort underway.”
“I see, however, no outpouring of support in most of the world’s countries. The oil-rich Arabs? Where are they? But most frustrating and even angering is the lack of concern exhibited by average and elite members of the societies most directly affected. This was driven home in the course of an interminable meeting a few days ago discussing some silly resolution or another calling on the UN to appoint a “Special Representative for Tsunami Relief.” A relatively senior Sri Lankan official leaned over and said to me, “Why do we want to bother with this? We all know you Americans will do everything.” A nice compliment, I suppose, but on reflection a sad commentary not only about the rest of the world but presumably about Sri Lanka, itself. One would expect the affected countries to take the lead in relief efforts. None of the most seriously affected countries (Indonesia, Sri Lanka, Maldives) is a dirt poor country; all have well-established governments and national identities.”
“In Jakarta, aside from flags at half-staff, we have seen no signs of mourning for the victims: while employees and dependents of the American embassy spent their holiday loading trucks and putting together medicine kits, the city’s inhabitants went ahead with New Year’s parties; nightclubs and shopping centers are full; and regular television programming continues. At least 120,000 of their fellow countrymen are dead, and Indonesians hardly talk about it, much less engage in massive charitable efforts. The exceptionally wealthy businessmen of the capital — and the country boasts several billionaires — haven’t made large donations to the cause of Sumatran relief; a few scattered NGOs have done a bit, but there are no well-organized drives to raise funds and supplies. We have seen nothing akin to what happened in the USA following the 9/11 atrocity, or the hurricanes in Florida of this past year.”
“The Sri Lankan’s words echo in my mind every day, “”Why do we want to bother with this? We all know you Americans will do everything.” With the exception of handful of Western countries, most of the world would appear inhabited by the sort of Eloi-type creatures depicted in that old sci-fi flick based on H.G. Wells’ The Time Machine, passively watching as flood waters or Morlocks drag their fellows away.”
“Begging the pardon of the cultural relativists, but might we not be allowed to raise — ever so gently, of course — the possibility that these differing reactions to human suffering, show Western civilization as the best we have on the planet? Maybe, just maybe Western civilization is morally superior.”
Maybe. Think about it.
Steve
Re: Why do we want to bother with this? We all know you Americans will do everything.
Obviously, human life is not highly regarded in some of these countries.
Re(1): Why do we want to bother with this? We all know you Americans will do everything.
Individual human life is probably more highly regarded in the West than in the East. Having been on both sides of the fence I can attest to that. But let’s not make this a 1/0 issue.
You have to realize that the West has a declining population, lower birth and infant mortality rates combined with longer life expectancy. There is greater investment in the individual, at the very least at the emotional level. And this is a modern urban industrial concept.
In more rural areas, some 100 to 150 years ago, western families were large, were rarely surprised if half their children died before attaining adulthood and rare was the child who set eyes on more than one grandparent. These attitudes remain on the consciousness of people in many parts of the world where the confidence in modern medicine is not as robust as it is in post-industrial societies.
I chafe at the statement that on account of it’s life culture that western civilization becomes morally superior, but I can’t successfully argue with it. I’ll take my ‘Get Out of Jail Free’ card by saying that both hemispheres operate under a different set of thought processes, however ill-informed they may be.
Additionally, it’s tough for a subsistence farmer or unemployed Asian to spare some change for a disaster when he owes a lifetime worth of debt as it is. Those who care, probably can’t give and those who can give, probably don’t care. Western nations have social balances where a ten or even hundred dollar donation won’t hurt. Ten or a hundred dollars is probably the difference between life and death in Thailand. Who knows?
The best we can say is that the East has not caught up with the West in how it sees itself and its people in the post industrial age. But who’s to say that they are not holding out for a better system?
Re(2): Why do we want to bother with this? We all know you Americans will do everything.
A thoughtful and interesting reply. When a better system comes along, adopt it. However, why would you think the East would adopt a better system later when it rejects a better system now?
Steve
Re(5): Largess?
Malik,
The rest of the world is just as disgusted with Palestinian tactics. If they want more sympathy, they need a better way of making their case besides blowing up their young men and cutting out the organs of freshly killed Israeli soldiers, and running with them in hand, shrieking and yelling, through the streets.
-Aliandra
Re(6): Largess?
Aliandra, Steve, whilst I agree with you that the Palestinians need to change their strategy to acquire peace by peaceful means and dialogue rather than any form of violent action, Israel itself cannot be let off the hook when we read, hear and see daily atrocities against human rights and human beings, killing a child or children crossing a field, going to school or going about their daily lives should not go untold and unpunished. We should adopt the same scale against both sides rather than limit the criticism to one only.
In any case, the Palestinians now have a new leader, let’s see how he’s going to achieve the peace.
Re(5): Largess?
The difference is that radical Muslims kill people who offend them, and practically everything offends them. Weak governments like Sri Lankan hope to appease Muslim terrorists by caving in to their demands. Such violent dispositions give them an outsized effect on their governments.
By contrast, Israel does not kill people for not being Jews or because somebody has offended their religious sensibilities. They will not send assassins to kill government officials if their demands are ignored. You can let Israelis in to your country without worrying that they will form terror cells to kill the non-Israelis. That is a big difference.
Steve
Why We Despise The UN
Here is an interesting postscript on the tsunami relief effort by US foreign service officers who are there:
http://diplomadic.blogspot.com/2005/01/more-unhonesty.html
The military forces of the US, Australians, Singaporeans, New Zealanders, and others took immediate action to relieve the suffering of tsunami victims. The UN takes its time to arrive and takes ineffective action. The only food and water they moved was via room service to their suites in the five star hotels they occupied in Jakarta. However, the UN claims credit for all the efforts made by the US and others. But who does the UN single out for criticism? America, of course.
Steve
[Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on January 27, 2005 12:42 PM]
All of you don’t have any brain to see the truth in Sri lanka. Please stop to debate about issues, which you can’t understand. Please talk about your “highly civilized modern westearn society”. But don’t talk about other countries. Thank you in advance.