While businessmen were earnestly discussing ways to bolster moderate thought in the Bahraini parliament, Islamist parliamentarians were again doing their damnest to completely destroy the country’s tourism and business sectors.
What does it take to get the message through to these numbskulls that what they’re doing is wrong, backward, and belongs in a time that will never come back regardless of their prayers?
Maybe a million Bahraini Dinars would! Because that is exactly what a new businessmen lobbying group has pledged into an initial war-chest. The Islamists should be afraid. Very afraid. Just the threat of that amount of money should get them to copiously drool into their straggly beards. They might as well wipe them, as they will never get any of that kitty. It is reserved to bolster the chances of moderates and liberals to enter parliament.
Is that a testament that liberals are good for business? Notwithstanding the American skew, of course they are. They are the people who would take the middle road and ensure that business is given a chance to flourish, hence create jobs, wealth, prosperity and stability. All of which are wanting in Bahrain at the moment.
As a measure of the seriousness of the business sector in this campaign, they selected two of the luminaries of the business community to head the newly formed “Involvement of the Private Sector in the Political Arena” chaired by one of the leading business figures Farouq Al-Moayyed, and supported by Essam Fakhro, another of the businessman highly respected on the island. The seriousness of the situation cannot be further exemplified that should this effort fail, then the two gentlemen have the most to losein this experiment. Not a very palatable prospect as between them they employ many thousands of people and contribute many millions (if not billions) to the local economy.
People as astute as Al-Moayyed and Fakhro don’t stick their necks out haphazardly. Were they scared into taking such a position against the extremists? Where they coerced and pushed into it? Hardly. To all intents and purposes they are actually more important than the ruling families to the man on the street. Yet, borne by their national duty AND the vision of their copious profits disappearing, they were pushed into action by their perceived balance sheets should the Islamists have their way, fully two anda half years after the inauguration of this impotent parliament. They, joined by some 120 businessmen (and a few parliamentarians who attended the meeting!), have had enough. Collectively they recognised that it is high time to put up or shut up, and put up they have.
I attended the meeting last night at the Chamber of Commerce, which to me was only the second time I EVER enter that building! That shows you maybe how important this meeting is to me. It was billed as an advisory meeting whereby the newly formed committeewas looking to guage the real support or otherwise it expects to enjoy within the business community. By the attendance of more than 120 businessmen, it amply demonstrated that this action is long overdue, and many were ready to pull out their wallets there and then.
Al-Moayyed and Fakhro opened the discussions outlining the objectives of the meeting and given the floor to various businessmen to discuss their concerns. Unfortunately most took the opportunity to stray as far away as possible from the declared agenda, which was:
none of this was done. People were content into demonstrating their oratorial skills. Credit where credit is due however, Al-Moayyed slapped everyone who went on a tangent and cut them off (politely) at the knees. Fakhro did too, with more passion though, reminded the wayward speakers that this committee was NOT against Islam, nor is it against moral codes of society, especially after one of the delegates went completely overboard to demonstrate his complete ignorance of societal and political limits by blaming all the ills of the country on the Islamists! He could be right, but it wasn’t the right forum to expound on that issue. Both chairs recognised as did others in the hall that to criticise Islam would sound the death knell on the enterprise, so it is critical to remind people that the only way forward is reaching a middle ground and that the main purpose of the committee is to ensure the continuation of business rather than deter people from their right of worship.
All in all, it is an excellent start. I am thrilled that at long last “heavyweights” have taken up the mantle of responsibility to tell the Bahraini community that enough is enough. My ramblings as is the press are minnows compared to the gentlemen on the board, for they not only have the complete respect of the community, but as importantly have the ears of the ruling family. They are the bridge that can make this whole enterprise possible.
It is high time that we try to stop the extremists from winning by utilising the only weapon at their disposal: emotional blackmail.
We can stop them at their tracks pragmatically and logically, by reminding people that through our way: moderation, they can win both in this life and the afterlife and enjoy both!
Comments
Hope
It is extremely refreshing to see such renowned businessmen stand up for economic freedom in a very public manner. By devoting their time and resources to the cause, Dr. Fakhro and Mr. Almoayyed are effectively conveying a strong message to those who seek to wreak havoc to the moderate climate in Bahrain.
With outrageous demands and hardline extremist ideologies, the Bahraini parliamentarians have done little to gain the trust of those they allegedly represent.
As an advocate of liberal economic ideologies, I strongly praise these individuals on their efforts and comittment to instill some level of stability in the Bahraini economy. I am confident you will succeed in your endeavours and may Allah be by your side.
Yours,
NomadicArab (hopefully not nomadic for too long)
Hope
Hope indeed Mahmood. When I read about this in the papers, I was initially worried that they weren’t being as serious as they need to be tackle the issue. But I’m happy to know from your post that they are taking this very seriously. This is the best news for Bahraini politics (and the economy) in a very long time. Please keep us posted (does that qualify as a pun?).
Hope
I thought Munira Fakhro’s Leftists were in alliance with the Islamists a la Iran’s Tudeh Party?
Scorpio
Re: Hope
[quote]Taking the American example, we all know that the reason the US backs Israel all the way, whether if its in the UN or its foreign policy, is through a very strong jewish lobby forever-based on Capitol Hill. [/quote]
Not quite so. There is a Jewish lobby but that wouldn’t mean jack if Israel was a dictatorship. For conservatives like me, we support Israel because it is a democracy which rules by law, an oasis of democracy in a desert of strongman states. That needs to be preserved and extended throughout the Middle East, rather than the reverse. If Palestine was a democracy and Israel was a mafia state, we would support Palestine and the Jewish lobby would have no traction with us.
The Jewish lobby does a good job of selling Israel to us but only because we like what we see. The answer for the Arab states is not to get better salesmen but to produce a product that America would buy. An Arab democracy would sell itself to us. You wouldn’t need a lobby or salesman. We’d be tripping over ourselves trying to support it.
It also helps that Israel doesn’t send suicide bombers to kill Americans nor does it applaud when Americans are killed by the same. We take keen note of that.
Steve
Re(1): Hope
Stevo,
I’m not going to give you the usual arab rhetoric that is usually thrown around regarding any zionist “conspiracy”. Nor am I gonna say that Jihad is the only route the Palestinians might actually have if they want a country that actually rules itself. So please spare me the cliche that the US only supports democratic countries. Iraq was a dictatorship in the 80s and yet it was fully supported by the US when it was at war with Iran. And the rest, of course, is history.
The Arabs don’t need to produce a product that America would buy. They need to brush up on their marketing skills. The product is a sham, and you know it. If only the US was able to spread democracy in Florida in 2000… I mean, hey, there’s no conflict of interest when the Governor of a crucial state that had voting irregularities is the brother of a presidential candiate who was [i]appointed[/i] as the president by the supreme court, instead of being actually [i]voted[/i] into office. Where’s the democracy there? Besides, we all know that the electoral college needs some improvement.
Since you label yourself as a conservative, you’re probably not agreeing with me on any point that I’m trying to make, but its okay. But what I can’t understand is that you see Israel as an “oasis of democracy”. Just because they have a parliamentary system, that does not make them innocent, nor does it give them the right to just take any land they please. Israel was created by force, not by democracy. They didn’t wave a white flag and hugged the palestinians to death. They destroyed villages, towns, and families and setup their own perfect “democracy”. . .and created the strongest lobbying group in the US. Rome wasn’t built in a day, and neither was Israel, but it was surly built on the blood of countless Palestinians.
Point taken about the Israelis not sending suicide bombers to kill Americans. But the reason these crazy people do what they do is because they were so pissed off with the way the US handles its Middle East policy, they were driven to kill themselves and taking innocent people with them just to prove a point. I think that the point they’re trying to make can come in the form of a proper lobbying group instead of a bomb.
Trackback :: Businessmen’s role in politics ‘crucial’
TrackBack from Mahmood’s Den
GDN: Businessmen’s role in politics ‘crucial
Re: Hope
[quote]Both American liberals and Salafists want to control the lives of the people through the government. Conservatives want people free of government interference to manage their own affairs, which they can do far better than the government. [/quote]
You’re thinking about libertarian or libertarian convservatives, Steve.
The modern US conservative is not only fiscally but also morally conservative. While the Religious Right wants to mimic Iran in theocratic blathery, the ‘Religious Left’ wants to squelch all dissenting opinion.
It bothers me so much that there is no reasonable people in the US government. Either you can’t be a certain way because it’s ‘immoral
Re: Hope
The good thing about it is that there were a mixture of businessmen there, it wasn’t just the “Families” who were all represented I think, but the small, medium and large businesses were represented. There were a lot of people I recognised. Thankfully there wasn’t any sectarian divide, proving once again that money is actually quite secular!
There even were some parliamentarians there, well, actually three that I noticed: Abdulnabi, Marhoon and Zainal, all of the Economic bloc. I guess that tells you that they’re not very happy with their colleagues and wanted to distance themselves as much as possible.
Missing from the meeting were the bearded ones AND the turbaned ones. Although if you look at this picture you will notice sitting quite prettily on the left is non other than Dr. Nizar Al-Baharna who split from Al-Wefaq and is (reportedly) creating his own political party. That has gone very quiet of late, I hope that he’s carrying on with it.
This is a very good sign for Bahrain. At last we have unambiguous signs that the people are fed up with the extremists’ ways.
Re: Hope
You didn’t think for an instant that those extremists would win in the end did you? There might be a lot of shouting and posturing, but when the chips are down people care about their jobs and living standards.
Al-Wefaq, Asalah, Minbar and other islamist organisation do not have any economic policy to speak of, they just want to get back to the time of the prophet one way or another. I’ll contribute to buy them a time-machine to help them along.
The impressionable people believed them for the last 2 years or so, but then when they saw what the economic situation is like and they stand to lose their jobs, they will have to change their minds, or at least rudely get woken up from their religion-induced slumber.
Hope
OK Mahmood, so what are you going to do. You are well connected, your views seem to be shared by many and you are read in many countries. In fact you are said by many to be the Bahraini voice of reasonableness. Why don’t you join the group, you would get a lot of international support, and make a difference to Bahrain from the inside.
Your country cannot rely on the wealth of the region continuing for many more decades so you have to grasp the opportunity to grow and develop your country for the good of all your citizens. The hard working Bahraini can punch well above their weight, look at Singapore or Hong Kong
Re: Hope
I’m giving this serious consideration Tony.
Hope
[quote]Mahmood: Is that a testament that liberals are good for business? Notwithstanding the American skew, of course they are. They are the people who would take the middle road and ensure that business is given a chance to flourish, hence create jobs, wealth, prosperity and stability. [/quote]
It sounds like Bahraini liberals are equivalent to American conservatives. American liberals do not take the middle road but rather lean left, often far left. Kerry and Dean were no middle of the roaders. The sensible liberals like Liebowitz were weeded out early in the presidential campaign. It is an article of faith among American liberals that business is a bad thing, a necessary evil, which needs strong government oversight to keep it from harming society. Of course, such oversight ends up smothering business to the detriment of all. American liberals know nothing about creating jobs, wealth, and prosperity. Nothing. All their polices rest upon getting bigger slices of a fixed economic pie. The American conservative view is that business is a natural expression of people’s desire to better themselves and provide value to their community. It requires some sensible regulation to protect everyone’s interests but should not be managed by the government, which has little business sense.
Our liberals are something like weak versions of your Salafists, who believe in the secular religions of socialism, environmentalism, and wacky naturalism. While conservatives are pragmatists dealing in the real world, liberals tend to be utopians attempting to impose unworkable and unrealistic schemes on everyone through government coercion. Your Salafists want to return to the 13th century. Our liberals, like Al Gore, want to outlaw the combustion engine. Both American liberals and Salafists want to control the lives of the people through the government. Conservatives want people free of government interference to manage their own affairs, which they can do far better than the government.
Steve
Hope
Mahmood,
I’m writing this to you because we seem to be sharing the same views when it comes to parliament and its inability to function as a whole. We can learn from history that the only way for the “people” to be heard is through the use of lobbying. Taking the American example, we all know that the reason the US backs Israel all the way, whether if its in the UN or its foreign policy, is through a very strong jewish lobby forever-based on Capitol Hill. To most arabs, all of their misseries lead back to the zionist “conspiracy”. But the trail of thought ends there and nobody tries to figure out just [i]how[/i] the Israelis do it.
The “families” that you speak of aren’t doing what they’re doing because they want to save Bahrain’s economy. They’re doing it to protect their own economic interests, and there is nothing wrong with that. I should know because my grandfather was one of the founders of the Chamber of Commerce and over the past two years, I’ve seen my family’s business come under threat from these Islamic nut-jobs.
However, I must admit that our infantile parliament did help change Bahrain somewhat. The inept Minister of Health was kicked out because of parliament’s inquiry into the way he mismanaged the institution he was supposed to lead. If this was only extended to the PM, then we would have certainly seen Hell freeze over. In the 80s and 90s, Ministers were never scrutinized in public over irregularities, or any given issue at that matter. Besides, its 2005, and Bahrain is in need of a make over.
Hope
mahmood ..
how many women were there?
JJ
Re: Hope
A few..
Muneera Fakhro
Salwa Al-Moayyed
Afnan Al-Zayani
and a few others I didn’t recognise as well as journalists. I was hoping that I would see you there!
Hope
Mahmood,
that’s good news indeed. I just wonder whether the businessmen and -women community will find candidates willing to enter into election campaigns – won’t they be concerned not only about leaving their businesses but also about the possible damage to their image in case they won’t win. Moreover it seems to me that the electoral districts are drawn in a way which would rather not privilige liberals – or are you more optimistic?
C.A.
Paraphrasing Mark Twain…
Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of parliament [CONGRESS] . But I repeat myself.
“It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly native American criminal class except CONGRESS. ”
Undoubtedly our parliament is populated by idiots and come only a few incidents short of being a “distinctly native criminal class”. Just give them time, Sameer Shuwaikh and Jassem Mowali will have lots of company.
Or consider Will Rogers, who said “This country has come to feel the same when CONGRESS is in session as when the baby gets hold of a hammer.” and “With CONGRESS, every time they make a joke it’s a law, and every time they make a law it’s a joke.”
I’m glad that there’s an effort to counteract the growing Salafi movement. That’s as much as I know about this lobby. And you know how I feel about lobby groups. I see this is a marker on the road to progress. The Salafis will have less of a monopoly over political dialogue, Insha’allah. Hopefully with greater press freedoms and transparency, we can be the kind of place that attracts foreign investment rather than scaring it away. Bahrain needs the outside world more than the outside world needs us, and the Salafis better realize that.
An anonymous source once said “There are two enemies to every bill proposed in CONGRESS, the fools who favor it and the lunatics who oppose it.”
Thank heavens, we now have our lunatics!
Hope
*** * ***
“You Do Your Worst – and We Will do Our Best”
(A Warning to the Nazi Like Terrorists in Iraq and Elsewhere)
A tonic for the Civil Defence Forces of Iraq today by Winston S. Churchill
First delivered 14 July 1941
The impressive and inspiring spectacle we have witnessed displays the vigour and efficiency of the civil defence forces. They have grown up in the stress of emergency. They have been shaped and tempered by the fire of the enemy, and we saw them all, in their many grades and classe – the wardens, the rescue and first-aid parties, the casualty services, the decontamination squads, the fire services, the report and control centre staffs, the highways and public utility services, the messengers, the police. No one could but feel how great a people, how great a nation we have the honour to belong to. How complex, sensitive, and resilient is the society we have evolved over the centuries, and how capable of withstanding the most unexpected strain.
I must, however, admit that when the storm broke in September, I was for several weeks very anxious about the result. Sometimes the gas failed; sometimes the electricity. There were grievous complaints about the shelters and about conditions in them. Water was cut off, railways were cut or broken, large districts were destroyed, thousands were killed, and many more thousands were wounded. But there was one thing about which there was never any doubt. The courage, the unconquerable grit and stamina of our people, showed itself from the very outset. Without that all would have failed. Upon that rock, all stood unshakable. All the public services were carried on, and all the intricate arrangements, far-reaching details, involving the daily lives of so many millions, were carried out, improvised, elaborated, and perfected in the very teeth of the cruel and devastating storm.
We have to ask ourselves this question: Will the bombing attacks come back again? We have proceeded on the assumption that they will. Many new arrangements are being contrived as a result of the hard experience through which we have passed and the many mistakes which no doubt we have made – for success is the result of making many mistakes and learning from experience. If the lull is to end, if the storm is to renew itself, we will be ready, will will not flinch, we can take it again.
We ask no favours of the enemy. We seek from them no compunction. On the contrary, if tonight our people were asked to cast their vote whether a convention should be entered into to stop the bombing of cities, the overwhelming majority would cry, “No, we will mete out to them the measure, and more than the measure, that they have meted out to us.” The people with one voice would say: “You have committed every crime under the sun. Where you have been the least resisted there you have been the most brutal. It was you who began the indiscriminate bombing. We will have no truce or parley with you, or the grisly gang who work your wicked will. You do your worst – and we will do our best.” Perhaps it may be our turn soon; perhaps it may be our turn now.
We live in a terrible epoch of the human story, but we believe there is a broad and sure justice running through its theme. It is time that the enemy should be made to suffer in their own homelands something of the torment they have let loose upon their neighbours and upon the world. We believe it to be in our power to keep this process going, on a steadily rising tide, month after month, year after year, until they are either extirpated by us or, better still, torn to pieces by their own people.
It is for this reason that I must ask you to be prepared for vehement counter-action by the enemy. Our methods of dealing with them have steadily improved. They no longer relish their trips to our shores. I do not know why they do not come, but it is certainly not because they have begun to love us more. It may be because they are saving up, but even if that be so, the very fact that they have to save up should give us confidence by revealing the truth of our steady advance from an almost unarmed position to superiority. But all engaged in our defence forces must prepare themselves for further heavy assaults. Your organization, your vigilance, your devotion to duty, your zeal for the cause must be raised to the highest intensity.
We do not expect to hit without being hit back, and we intend with every week that passes to hit harder. Prepare yourselves, then, my friends and comrades, for this renewal of your exertions. We shall never turn from our purpose, however sombre the road, however grievous the cost, because we know that out of this time of trial and tribulation will be born a new freedom and glory for all mankind.
In reproducing Churchill’s mighty tribute to the rescuers of London, we have done something we have never done to one of his speeches: edited it slightly to eliminate contemporary references. In this evergreen form it serves as commentary on a day that will live in infamy, 11 September 2001. The original can be found in Churchill¹s The Unrelenting Struggle (English edition 187; American edition 182) or in the Complete Speeches VI:6448.
Global Emergency Service
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Re(1): Hope
Mahmood, I’m sure you’ll excuse me for thinking that the extremists might win. There are far too many examples around the world where the extremists are winning because the moderates did not step up at the right time. I wish the new business lobby the best of luck on their mission and urge them to stay focused.
One suggestion to the businessmen: start up a new Bahraini TV station. The businessmen have the political connections to get permission, as well as the capital set it up. The direct benefits to them are:
1) It will promote a better image of Bahrain to foreign investors, tourists, etc (more moolah)
2) It provides a good venue for local businesses to advertise
3) The station itself will hopefully generate profits eventually
But asides from this, the station(s) could play a significant role in promoting tolerance and pluralism within Bahrain. The example that I am inspired by is that of Pakistan. A number of businessmen there were given the permission to set up their own private TV stations and they have done a good job of taking stage away from the extremists. Their shows promote an agenda of pluralism and tolerance between the various religious and sectarian groups. For example, the most popular religious show called “Alim Online” (stupid name, stupid show, but..) features one sunni cleric and one shia cleric who together answer the viewer’s questions about Islam, always stressing their similarities. Similarly, Christmas and Easter were celebrated on the private stations with almost as vigour as the Eids. And there are always shows that are about bettering relations between India and Pakistan. All of this much to the chagrin of the extremists.
I think if the businessmen could do something similar in Bahrain it would be beneficial to everyone.
Re: Hope
Good quote. Britain standing alone, while American “allies” dithered on the sidelines over whether to join the fight against Nazism. Pathetically forced into war when Hitler declared war on them not the other way round. Moral scandal.
Re(1): Hope
[quote]You’re thinking about libertarian or libertarian convservatives, Steve. [/quote]
I’m thinking about me and most conservatives, who consider libertarians to be well-intentioned but impractical.
[quote]The modern US conservative is not only fiscally but also morally conservative. While the Religious Right wants to mimic Iran in theocratic blathery, the ‘Religious Left’ wants to squelch all dissenting opinion. [/quote]
A lot of conservatives are only paying lip service to the morally conservative line. For example, most conservatives I know don’t care much for abortion but they will take their pregnant teenage daughters and twentysomething girlfriends in for an abortion when pressed. A lot of those good Christian men and women are in church praying on Sunday for God to forgive what they did Saturday night.
Comparing the religious right in the US to the Iranian theocrats is quite a bit of hyperbole. I don’t recall the Baptists funding their own Hezbollah to deliver suicide bombers to their religious enemies. Opposition to dissent is not a feature limited to the religious left, but of the Left everywhere.
[quote]It bothers me so much that there is no reasonable people in the US government. Either you can’t be a certain way because it’s ‘immoral
Re(2): Hope
[quote]So please spare me the cliche that the US only supports democratic countries. Iraq was a dictatorship in the 80s and yet it was fully supported by the US when it was at war with Iran. And the rest, of course, is history. [/quote]
I claimed that the US supports Israel largely because it is a democracy, not that we only support only democracies as you tried to claim for me. We send billions in foreign aid to Egypt, which seems a fairly corrupt authoritarian state. There’s not much we can do about that in the short term. You can’t change the whole world to suit you. Sometimes you have to deal with the strongman in charge.
We did not “fully support” Iraq in its war against Iran. We considered them both nasty states and supported both against the other. If we had fully supported Iraq they would have won with a complement of American arms, rather than the Soviet arms they used. When Iraq got ahead, we provided satellite intelligence to Iran pointing out where the Iraqis were. When Iran got ahead, we gave satellite imagery to Iraq, pointing out where the Iranians were. As Kissinger said, it was a shame they both couldn’t lose the war. It was quite to America’s advantage to have Iran and Iraq focusing their murderous energies at each other rather than projecting that energy elsewhere.
[quote] If only the US was able to spread democracy in Florida in 2000… I mean, hey, there’s no conflict of interest when the Governor of a crucial state that had voting irregularities is the brother of a presidential candiate who was appointed as the president by the supreme court, instead of being actually voted into office. Where’s the democracy there? [/quote]
Bush won Florida in 2000, despite the diehard Democrats determination to undermine the result. There were at least three separate audits of the ballots of the entire state which returned the same result as the official ballot: A slim Bush victory by about three hundred votes. Those audits were commissioned by a conglomeration of liberal newspapers like the NY Times and Washington Post and carried out by accounting firms. Bush won. Gore lost. Those are the facts. Read ’em and weep.
[quote]But what I can’t understand is that you see Israel as an “oasis of democracy”. Just because they have a parliamentary system, that does not make them innocent, nor does it give them the right to just take any land they please.[/quote]
Israel is a democracy, though it may pain you to say so. None of its neighbors are. Far from it. That’s why I say Israel is an oasis in a sea of tyranny. It’s self-evident.
I’d probably agree with you that Israel has taken land improperly and should make good on that. I find it curious that your objection is limited to Israel though, when taking land improperly is rife throughout the Middle East. Does your objection extend to the many wars Arab nations have waged unsuccessfully against Israel with the sole purpose of taking all of Israel’s land? You’re against taking land wholesale like that, too, right?
[quote]Israel was created by force, not by democracy. They didn’t wave a white flag and hugged the palestinians to death. They destroyed villages, towns, and families and setup their own perfect “democracy”. . .and created the strongest lobbying group in the US. Rome wasn’t built in a day, and neither was Israel, but it was surly built on the blood of countless Palestinians. [/quote]
The Palestinians have a bloody history in Beirut, Jordan, and now Israel. They are not a peaceful people. They set up mafia style governments where ever they settle. They were so obnoxious that the Jordanians murdered them en masse and the Jordanians are mostly Palestinians themselves. When even the Palestinians can’t stand the Palestinians, that seems to indicate there is a problem here other than the Israelis. The Palestinians don’t choose peace, only violence. I don’t see any Arab countries inviting the Palestinians they profess to admire so much into their own countries. Many have kicked them out. They consider them troublemakers.
May I also point out that Israel is very much a reaction to the Holocaust. I’d say Israel is built on the blood of six million Jews. Plus the Israeli victims of many Arab wars, shootings, and bombings.
[quote]Point taken about the Israelis not sending suicide bombers to kill Americans. But the reason these crazy people do what they do is because they were so pissed off with the way the US handles its Middle East policy, they were driven to kill themselves and taking innocent people with them just to prove a point. I think that the point they’re trying to make can come in the form of a proper lobbying group instead of a bomb.[/quote]
That’s pure baloney. The point of the Sep 11 attacks was to conquer the world for an Islamic empire in the form of a Second Caliphate. Bin Laden made it clear that he wanted to kill American civilians, anyone who paid taxes, to further that goal. Al Qaeda specifically said it had the right to kill two million American children. The major point of US foreign policy to which Bin Laden objected was the US troops stationed in Saudi Arabian at the invitation of the Saudi government to defend them against Iraq. We risked our lives defending Saudi Arabia from Saddam and Bin Laden is outraged by that. It’s hardly a rational objection.
The suicide bombers in Madrid were not killing themselves for US policy, but rather for Spanish foreign policy and to return Andalusia to the Muslim empire, again part of the insane Muslim religious war on the world. There are similar suicide plots that were stopped in various parts of Europe that are part of the general Muslim war on the West. The Muslim suicide bombers in Bali were not protesting US foreign policy. They were just kill crazy Muslims who wanted to slaughter infidels. Aussies would do fine for them, just as long as they Western infidels.
Even in Israel, your assertion does not bear itself out. The Palestinians are not sending people who have suffered to detonate themselves in Israeli shopping malls. They are sending children and teenagers who can be talked into anything. The adults who would have experienced of the suffering you allege are not strapping bombs to themselves. However, they do object to the rather cynical Palestinian terror groups using their children as cannon fodder in their campaign of terror.
Arafat used kids as suicide bombers as a cynical ploy to keep himself in power by keeping the violence going. Keeping Arafat in power was what it was all about.
Steve
Hope
Steve writes “Not quite so. There is a Jewish lobby but that wouldn’t mean jack if Israel was a dictatorship. For conservatives like me, we support Israel because it is a democracy which rules by law, an oasis of democracy in a desert of strongman states. That needs to be preserved and extended throughout the Middle East, rather than the reverse. If Palestine was a democracy and Israel was a mafia state, we would support Palestine and the Jewish lobby would have no traction with us. ”
Interesting. I do not think that a state set up to be a homeland for one specific race or religion can be democratic. Israel’s treatment of its Muslim and Christian citizens makes that clear. They are second class citizens. I do not think that a government that promotes religion and enforces religious law can be democratic. Israel does both. It is a crime to open your business on the Sabbath. Rabbis and religious leaders have a very large role in the Israeli government.
Malik
Hope
Steve writes “The Palestinians have a bloody history in Beirut, Jordan, and now Israel. They are not a peaceful people.”
You have to love Steve dont you? He has never been in a situation or seen something he cannot generalise about! So your above statement applies to all Palestinians Steve? How many Palestinians do you know or interact with on a daily basis? Ever wonder what the Palestinians were doing in these countries in the first place? Hint, their violent expulsion by the Israelis. The US has bombed or invaded more than 40 countries since WW2, does this then mean we are not a “peaceful people”? Why not make similiar generalisations about the US Steve? Or is it not okay to generalise about the US?
Malik
Hope
Steve writes “That’s pure baloney. The point of the Sep 11 attacks was to conquer the world for an Islamic empire in the form of a Second Caliphate. ”
Odd, the former head of the bin Laden desk at the CIA (first person to have his own desk) said that al-Queda has a clearly defined set of political goals. Do you have some knowledge that this expert did not?
Malik
Hope
Malik
Conquer the world and set up an Islamic empire sounds like a set of political goals to me. A bit nutty but then smacking planes into buildings isn’t sane behavior for most.
Hope
Steve writes “May I also point out that Israel is very much a reaction to the Holocaust. I’d say Israel is built on the blood of six million Jews. Plus the Israeli victims of many Arab wars, shootings, and bombings. ”
Really? So Zionism, or the political movement for a Jewish state, was a post WW2 movement? I can suggest some reading if this is what you think. I would also like to know which “Arab wars” prior to the 1948 forming of Israel that you are talking about that helped form the state of Israel.
Malik.
Hope
Malik ..
Dont let Steve wind you up… he really doesnt have much to say other than when there is an opportuniy to Saudi bash .. cheap shot if you ask me … 😉
JJ