“I got you, you bastard and I am not running to the secret abortion clinic or having a hymen make-over at the hypocrisy salon. The unabashed openness of her act makes of the mother a responsible adult and of the father a cowardly boy copulating in hiding.”
And she’s not dead? Her brother, father, uncle, boy next door didn’t kill her to “purify” her family’s name?
I can’t believe it.. what’s the (Arab) world coming to, when a woman has sex out of wedlock, has an [il]legitimate child and then sues the father for paternity and lives to not only tell the tale but challenges the age-old “honour killing” thing?
Have your own say. Mine is: good on you Hind.
Comments
Honour Killing is Dying
I am glad to see that the woman is not penalized. However, I hope this does not start a trend in illegitimacy. It’s done enough damage in the West.
Honour Killing is Dying
Good for her…unfortunately now I fear that she’s going to need security around her 24/7, because almost certainly some hyper-religious nut cases are going to start taking shots at her. I sadly predict that there will be multiple assassination attempts on this woman, whose only crime is wanting to live in the 21st century instead of the 5th.
Honour Killing is Dying
Well, she was married. It was one of those secret marriages. I am against these types of convienence marriages, like the temperary marriages. Nothing more than legalised prostitution in many places.
But I agree, secret marriage or no, the child and her deserve support. Honour killings should be a thing of the past. They have no basis in Islam and are a purely cultural act.
Malik
Honour Killing is Dying
“I sadly predict that there will be multiple assassination attempts on this woman, whose only crime is wanting to live in the 21st century instead of the 5th”.
Way to go, “Michael in Los Angeles” ,[ WHOSE ONLY CRIME IS WANTING TO LIVE IN THE 21ST CENTURY INSTEAD OF THE 5TH?!!!!!]
so having children out of wedlock is called ‘ living in the 21st century’?!
the apparent misunderstanding of cultures , the west ‘yours I presume’ , and the middle eastern one ‘ proudly mine’ ,is the reuslt of your miscalculated comment.
I don’t mean to sound arrogant, nor this comment was meant as a personal attack. I value freedom of speach and therefore I value your openion. However, I don’t agree with it.
Honour Killing is Dying
The lady has got *****guts. Good for her.
Re: Honour Killing is Dying
Woah there, skippy.
What I got from his post is that the woman wants to live in the 21st century by not hiding from the responsibility of sex. Abortions and re-hymenation is a way to get out of responsibility. To pretend it never happened. To deny the truth.
That’s living in the 5th century. The new Zeitgeist is responsibility for your actions. I hope..
Honour Killing is Dying
I read this story yesterday. This man deserves no mercy. This honor killing came close to home a few years ago. Like less than a mile from my house. Poor little girl all she was trying to do was have a life, and her father killed her in the driveway and of course was arrested. His wife and other children stood by him but in Michigan you go to prison, We do not have the death penalty. This child was not having sex she was participating in school activities.
Prisoners in our state are not kind to their fellow prisoners who kill children and I hope he lives hell on earth for the rest of his life.
It is hard to make a judgement on temporary marriage as I have been married for 39 years (good grief) I cannot see my husband blaming his daughter for anything. I have seen a fathers love for his child and believe this man was not a father he was a sperm donor.
I agree that a two parent family is in the best interest of the children and have been lucky because one of my children choose marriage and my son has not been irresponsible. But a baby no matter how it comes is a gift to be cherised and loved and cared for.
Sorry didn’t mean to babble.
Perk up Spring is on the way.
Re: Kuwaiti man slits daughter’s throat
He’d just gotten back fom the Hajj too.
Obviously he missed the point..
Honour Killing is Dying
Still alive in Pakistan!
PESHAWAR: A tribal jirga in Sindh has decided to kill a woman doctor who was allegedly gang raped in Sui to restore the “lost honour� of her tribe, a Pakistan Medical Association (PMA) official told a press conference on Wednesday. PMA President Dr Umer Ayub said the husband and in-laws of the doctor had told him of the jirga or local council’s decision in Gumbat Khairpur. He demanded the members of the jirga be arrested, and the alleged rapists of the doctor be hanged at Minar-e-Pakistan to deter such crimes. He criticised the federal interior minister for not visiting the woman doctor and her family. He also slammed the NWFP Assembly for not condemning the alleged rape.
Honour Killing is Dying
The “Zeitgeist” is to make responsible decisions. And having children out of wedlock is contrary to any civilization’s, culture’s, or even religion’s code of ethics.
Skippy. 🙂
Honour Killing is Dying
A trend in illigitimacy? While I can agree with the premise, perhaps what’s preventing a trend in illigitimacy is the trend in abortion. This is long past due and I commend her on the bravery of her actions. It’s all too easy to focus on the “shame of the woman” and forget about the responsibilty of the man. Why should the woman have to bear all the burden?
Re: Kuwaiti man slits daughter’s throat
I wonder what type of punishment this guy will get?…
well according to amnesty International guys like him only get booked for 3 Months and then they are released.
the only sentance I would recommend for this lunatic is that he should be put in a mental facility for the rest of his life.
Honour Killing is Dying
I wonder what type of punishment this guy will get?…
well according to amnesty International guys like him only get booked for 3 Months and then they are released.
the only sentance I would recommend for this lunatic is that he should be put in a mental facility for the rest of his life.
Bugs
i forgot sign it
#
Re: Honour Killing is Dying
[quote]And having children out of wedlock is contrary to any civilization’s, culture’s, or even religion’s code of ethics.[/quote]
That’s simply untrue.
Kuwaiti man slits daughter’s throat
And we wake up this morning to this GDN front page article:
14 year old? For goodness’ sake she had a vast and possibly fruitful life in front of her.. no more though because of some dickhead’s suspicion? Mental health be damned, slit his fucking throat and see how he likes it.
Re: Honour Killing is Dying
Malik, “temporary” marriages do have their places. They are fully sanctioned in Islam regardless of what we personally think. And it shouldn’t be in secret, there is nothing secrative about the temporary marriage, and its contract is actually more specific than the permanent one with rules specifically for inheritence and children etc.
Re: Honour Killing is Dying
Yes, but we’re not talking about having children in or out of wedlock, we’re talking about responsible sex; when it’s okay for a male to go around with (as we say in Bahrain) his dick on his shoulder looking for any hole to put it in, while it’s most definitely NOT okay for a woman to seek pleasure unless that is sanctioned by religion?
Why – practically – apply religion only to a woman’s natural needs and wants and discount it completely for men?
This woman did marry legally through what is called “urf” in Egypt (which is different I suspect than the Shi’a’s Muta’a temporary marriage) and got pregnant. Isn’t it the child’s right to have a father and for the father to unequivocally acknowledge it as his?
Re: Honour Killing is Dying
Why indeed. And why is it okay for a man to go around spreading his seed willy nilly without having to face up to the possible responsibility of parenthood. In this case, isn’t it better to acknowledge the legality of temprary marriages like the Muta’a where a man would be held legally responsible for the woman and her child from him in alimony, inheritence and the rest of it?
Or should we just resort to ‘honour killing’ where we punish a woman for seeking pleasure which is a natural function?
What is honour killings anyway, how is honour going to be restored to a family by slitting a daughter, sister, mother’s throat?
If it’s that important to some people, why is the honour killing not applied to men as well where a daughter, sister, mother would slit a brother, son, father’s throat for having extra-marital sex?
Re: Honour Killing is Dying
[quote]The “Zeitgeist” is to make responsible decisions. And having children out of wedlock is contrary to any civilization’s, culture’s, or even religion’s code of ethics.[/quote]
Not to be picky, but that’s not exactly true. Having children out of wedlock increased quite a bit in America over the past fifty years. SIngle women who got pregnant used to be considered dumb girls who got themselves knocked up and needed to hide from society for the shame of it. Now they are exalted as single mothers, a kind of secular saint, who deserve honor and benefits. It’s common for single women having babies to have baby showers and bring their babies in to work to show them off. It’s hardly looked down upon.
From what I read, the Scandinavian countries are even looser and wilder than that.
In the ancient Babylonian religion, sex was part of the priestesses duties. Almost certainly, children resulted from that religion’s code of ethics.
Steve
Re: Honour Killing is Dying
[quote]I agree that a two parent family is in the best interest of the children and have been lucky because one of my children choose marriage and my son has not been irresponsible. But a baby no matter how it comes is a gift to be cherised and loved and cared for. [/quote]
Plus people are people and make mistakes. Especially young people. Stabbing them to death for it seems just a bit excessive …
I’m not a religious person at all, but I have to agree with Jesus on at least one thing: “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”.
Honour Killing is Dying
We can all agree that Ahmed Al-Fishawy, the biological father, is a cad, a coward, an irresponsible womanizer who takes his pleasure where he pleases and leaves the consequences to his girlfriends.
But what about the girl, Hind al-Hinnawy? She hasn’t exactly managed her sexuality in a responsible way either. She screwed around with a playboy actor. How did she imagine that would turn out? My guess is this is another example of the typical Moth To The Flame script so many goofy women pursue: With All My Pure Love I Will Change This Bad Boy Into A Good Husband. Then, after they’ve been burned by their bad boy, they are shocked, shocked to discover that he was really a bad boy after all!
Now I don’t think this girl should be castigated or hide or be made into a pariah. However, if she’s going to screw around with cads, she should use some birth control until she gets into a stable, committed marriage.
Steve
Re: Honour Killing is Dying
Congratulations, Steve. Me and the other elves just voted you Our Favourite Wannabee Taliban.
Re: Kuwaiti man slits daughter’s throat
[quote]Mental health be damned, slit his fucking throat and see how he likes it.[/quote]
Use the dull knife.
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1652582,00.html
Re(1): Honour Killing is Dying
Steve,
[quote]Now they are exalted as single mothers, a kind of secular saint, [/quote]
That’s an unfortunate truth and it’s got to stop. The statistics are pretty consistent in showing that kids who grow up without a father present in the house have a lot more problems. Not to mention that it’s the taxpayers who get stuck having to support lower-income single mothers and their babies. Society has to go back to putting some shame on this behavior, or go back to insisting on shotgun weddings.
Honour Killing is Dying
Ya I agree with steve there was some irresponsponsebility on the part of this woman to not you any type of protection by her or the man.
The only thing I’m concerned about with this type of behavior is that it seems to promote the idea that women should have sex outside of marriage, or in the simplist of terms promote “cheating” in a relationship.
Re: Honour Killing is Dying
Both are at fault for being irresponsible here. I firmly believe that any child deserves a full set of parents and you’re right that in this day and age there are various ways to protect oneself from getting pregnant and that she should have done, unless of course she has an alterior motive.
The issue is however is the disparity in the Arab/Muslim world regarding the thorny issue of sex: in this particular situation it is a grown couple who had a tumble in the hay, the woman got pregnant and rightly wants the father to also take responsibility.
In Kuwait, a “religious” guy goes to perform the pilgrimage, comes back home and as he suspects that his 13/14-year-old daughter has had sex, kills her. First he uses one knife that is not sharp enough, and the screams for mercy of the bound and tethered girl don’t have any effect on this heartless beast.. he just “selects” (according to reports) a sharper knife and continues to kill her in the most heinous manner. He belongs to the salafi sect. Is it a wonder that they take pleasure in killing other innocent civilians? This monster kills his own flesh and blood on mere suspicion of impropriety, would their hearts bleed for beheading an “infidel”? No chance.
Honour Killing is Dying
How are the Koran and DNA testing going to co-exist?
Sandy P.
Re: Honour Killing is Dying
Not sure what you mean?
Islamically, a father has a duty to the child as does the mother. Like most religions, if you want to procreate you have to legalise your relationship with marriage, if children result out of that marriage then it is the responsibility of both parents to bring them up. Islam goes a step further in that it dictates that it is the parent’s privilege to have a child, and the child’s responsibility to love and respect the parents. The family relationship is extremely important to Islam, hence the various quite specific laws we have to ensure the rights of both the child and parents.
Can you expand on the DNA thing?
Re(1): Honour Killing is Dying
Salafi.
That pretty much says it all, doesn’t it? If the Wahhabis aren’t busy killing non-Wahhabis they’re busy killing their own families. What a contemptible and despicable religious cult this Wahhabism is. The world will be a better place when these Wahhabi killers are no more.
Steve
with apologies to the elves
Steve’s personal assistant has just informed me that, though he would otherwise gladly accept your honourable award, his current obligations to the BUSH-iban prevent him from even remotely indicating any favor toward a similarly competing ideology .
BUSH HEIL!
Honour Killing is Dying
I’m rooting for the kid, which is to say. I don’t give a damn how they ended up in bed, that’s just the tip of the iceberg. They got there and the biggest ramifications are for the child.
There is no way she will lead a normal life in Egypt or anywhere else in the Arab world. Daddy’s money better keep the child in the best boarding schools Switzerland has to offer.
I don’t suppose either of them were thinking about family commitment when they were cavorting around, but they have to now. They can’ get around it. And the community can’t stone the woman to keep from being responsible for it either. Arab communities can’t lie to themselves anymore that sex and gender are not issues. That whatever it is that we’re doing now is sufficient to keep us from the problems between the sexes. Come to think of it, whatever we’re doing now is blaming the west. As if white men taught us what to do with a hard-on.
The shame isn’t letting it happen, the shame is trying to bury the problem and act as though it never happened!
Re: with apologies to the elves
Let us not compare George Bush to Adolf Hitler.
I realize that it’s all the rage to say that, but there are demonstrable differences, and fairly obvious differences between Bush’s neoconservative bent and National Socialism
For at least a first point, Hitler was a better speaker than Bush is.
And Hitler ordered non-Aryan humans to be rounded up to be killed mechanically. No wacky harping abut Guantanamo could compare the detention of ~200 enemy soldiers for interrogation (using naked women, yikes!) to the mass detention of millions of members of the population, who were then tossed into gas chambers or ovens (naked, yipes!)
It’s a question of scale. Hate Bush if you will, but I’d rather live under him than Hitler.
Re(2): with apologies to the elves
[quote]They think that the National Socialists were conservatives when in fact they were liberals on steroids and mescaline. [/quote]
Hahaha – the Nazis were too [i][b]liberal[/b][/i] for you, Steve?
Re(3): with apologies to the elves
Before this goes too far,
I didn’t compare Neoconservatives to the Nazi’s, I compared them to the Texiban, sorry Taliban. But since none of us speak any Pashtun, I just progressed the salutation to the languages most recognizable relative on the spectrum of Indo-European languages.
Or is now speaking German a giveaway for your poltical ideology? That’ s very progressive of you my friend. I’ll be sure to stay away from crushed salted cabbage. How many Oktoberfesters did you arrest? Should I say my goodbyes to Black Forest Chocolate Cake? If I know what’s good for me…
Maybe I should have used the prototypical greeting that the VP used to end his conversation with a certain ranking member of the Senate. In fact, a gentleman who was elected to the senate 30 years ago while Cheney was just a White House go-fer. Maybe I would have felt better.
And Steven. No one’s saying that Hind Al Hinnawy is not going to suffer any consequences. Obviously you haven’t given birth to any children. A child changes your life, albeit for the better, but’s its no walk in the park. And to have this baby out of wedlock, (although it’s not technically out of wedlock), she’s facing the prospect of raising it out of wedlock, is to have to look over her shoulder everyday for the rest of her life and the life of the child after Hind is long gone.
There are innumerable social stigmas to follow that will take its toll on her and her family. Why don’t we just solve everything by giving everyone a nice big round of tax-cuts!
Re(3): with apologies to the elves
[quote]Quote:
They think that the National Socialists were conservatives when in fact they were liberals on steroids and mescaline.
Hahaha – the Nazis were too liberal for you, Steve? [/quote]
That’s correct, my historically challenged friend. The Nazis are creatures of the far Left, not conservatives as dimwitted Democrats seem to believe. Conservatives like me believe in smaller government. Liberals believe in big government, that the government should control most important things. Nazis believe everything should be controlled by the government. You can not get to the Nazi big government via a conservative impulse to shrink government. You can not run a vast archipelago of slave camps with a small government. You can only get there by indulging the liberal desire for big government.
The Nazis believed the government should control the economy. They outlawed small businesses that were worth less than an arbitrarily set limit. They set prices rather than let the market set them. These are socialist policies, another important clue that the National Socialists were socialists. Again, liberals love the idea that they can control the economy to improve its efficiency. Conservatives hate the idea. We believe the market is most efficient when left alone.
The name, National Socialism, was a reaction to the hated Soviet brand of international socialism, which wanted socialism to take over the world. The Nazis confined the scope of their socialism to one country’s government, Germany. They borrowed the red flag of revolution from the Communists as the backdrop of their own flag. They believed they were socialist revolutionaries.
Hitler bragged in Mein Kampf that the biggest source of his recruits was the Communist movement. He was able to recruit them over because much of their platform was the same. It was the nationalist focus which attracted many to National Socialism. Now, let me tell you a secret: It’s very difficult to talk a liberal into becoming a conservative. It’s nearly impossible to talk a socialist into becoming a conservative. But it’s fairly easy to talk a believer in international socialism into becoming a national socialist because they are close together on the far left.
The overwhelming hyper-liberal/socialist impulse to centralize everything is neatly summarized in the Nazi slogan, “One people. One Germany. One leader.” Conservatives certainly don’t believe that everything should be centralized, but rather decentralized so that everyone makes their own decisions over their own lives armed with the information of what’s best for them that centralized bureaucrats lack. Conservative economists quite rightly point out that such centralized economies are enormously ineffecient and inevitably tyrannous. We certainly don’t believe that every decision in our lives should be funnelled up to a single leader, as the Nazis and liberals do. Such centralization is uniquely a feature of wrong-headed leftist thinking.
Furthermore, the attempt to propagandize the population into thinking that Nazis were conservatives is an example of the typical liberal impulse to rewrite history that is embarassing to their agenda. And there is an endless number of dopey, badly educated liberal boneheads who accept the politically correct contention that National Socialists were really conservative capitalists. You’d think that at least one lefty knucklehead would notice the Socialist part of the National Socialist monicker and wonder if Socialists were really all that conservative.
Steve
[Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on January 29, 2005 12:37 PM]
Re(1): Honour Killing is Dying
[quote]Congratulations, Steve. Me and the other elves just voted you Our Favourite Wannabee Taliban.[/quote]
Dear Confused Critic,
The Taliban did not allow for premarital sex, as I do, and they were dead set against birth control, which I advocate.
Please unscramble your brain and try to make more intelligent criticism in the future.
Steve
Re(4): with apologies to the elves
DIB,
This specific problem could have been solved by the woman in question being smarter in managing her life. There seems to be a pattern among women here in America to seek out bad boys to mate with and then good guys to raise those children. Or they task their parents or grandparents to raise their ill-considered children. It’s pure irresponsibility. Some measure of blame must go to the woman for taking conception so casually.
Once the deed is done, she certainly shouldn’t be killed or ostracized. However, a certain measure of shame would be useful to society in that it would discourage other girls from becoming unwed mothers and spare their prospective children from a life of reduced circumstances.
Steve
Re(1): with apologies to the elves
Ethan,
You’re wasting your time. Liberals, ignorant of history, are absolutely compelled to call anyone a Nazi who is not a liberal. They think that the National Socialists were conservatives when in fact they were liberals on steroids and mescaline. You’d think that calling themselves Socialists would be a big clue they weren’t conservatives, or adopting the platform of the Communist Party, or flying the red flag of revolution. Such clues bounce off thick liberal noggins without effect.
To plumb the stupidity of these Nazi comments, let me point out that the Nazis advocated women to have as many children as they pleased, within marriage or without. That is very close to the free sex position of my ignorant liberal critics, not mine. Theirs is also a curiously anti-feminist position, in that they assume women assume no responsibility for their actions but rather must depend on the men in their lives to do right by them. Their implicit assumption is that women are just objects to be manipulated by men who can not exert independent will to control their own lives. I disagree with that assumption. Women should be treated like adults and should accept some responsibility for their bad decisions.
I welcome further opportunities to boil ignorant liberals in their own ignorance.
Steve
Re(1): Honour Killing is Dying
[quote]suffocating place called home[/quote]
Depending on the husband, the new ‘home’ may be more suffocating. It seems wrong to confine women to the house, deny them their humanity, and treat them as objects. Maybe that’s just me.
Re(4): with apologies to the elves
Leaving aside for the moment your curious blurring of “liberal” with “left” and “libertarian” with “conservative” (small govt. is a libertarian ideal, not a conservative one), how do you square your “small government” philosophy with your evident desire for government intervention in people’s personal lives? Do you envisage a little government entirely consisting of moralistic voyeurs, multitasking like billy-o as they seek to peer into bedrooms whilst simultaneously jealously guarding the moral highground?
Being neither a socialist nor a conservative but a genuine libertarian (which you, blabbermouth, are not), I find it quite extraordinary that you simultaneously advocate hands-off government and Nanny State busybody moralising.
Re(2): Honour Killing is Dying
[quote]The Taliban did not allow for premarital sex, as I do, and they were dead set against birth control, which I advocate[/quote]
That’s why you’re just a wannabee.
Re(3): Honour Killing is Dying
Your criticism makes little sense. It is simply foolish name-calling.
Steve
Re(5): with apologies to the elves
That’s pure nonsense. I am a conservative and support small government as do all the conservatives I know. Nowhere have I advocated the government to intervene in people’s personal lives, as you absurdly claim. That is a product of your imagination. It looks like you are trying to build a scarecrow argument out of your own prejudices so that you can easily knock it down.
Steve
Re(2): Honour Killing is Dying
Any guy who has dated a girl who had no father in her life realizes they have issues of abandonment, self-esteem, and in relating to men, among others. You often can tell whether a single woman had an absent father just from the way she presents herself.
Steve
Honour Killing is Dying
I was born in Bahrain. I was left as an orphan as an infant and always wondered what possibly ever happened to my birth mother. I do not know the reasons for her leaving me but after reading this story I can only hope that her life was spared. I have been raised in America my entire life and believe that life..any life..is precious. The sort of barbaric, ancient thinking that pervades the people who would believe this kind of action to be “justified” makes me so repulsed that I have trouble believing they can call themselves religous.
Re: Honour Killing is Dying
Jett I am really glad for you finding parents who cared enough to adopt you.
This story is not unique to Egypt however, it is the same throughout the double-faced Muslim world. Where Islam has absolutely NOTHING to do with it. It is the society which values loss of face or shame much more highly than a human life.
A couple of weeks ago the police found a bundle in the desert in Bahrain, that bundle was an abandoned just-born baby.
So where is the fault?
Wouldn’t it have been much better for society to accept a fact that (1) a mother got pregnant, (2) she went ahead with her pregnancy to birth, (3) she gave birth to a healthy being, wouldn’t you think that that society should have also accepted that baby into the world through no fault of its own? Isn’t it BOTH parents’ blame? Shouldn’t they be put on trial for this?
What would the consequences for the mother keeping the baby in this circumstance?
Complete ostracisation by the whole of society. She would enjoy absolutely no support system. Sure she did wrong. Sure the father walked away Scot-free, but the girl would be kicked, spat on and thrown out and then probably murdered by her own family.
The sad thing is that they (the young women) even don’t have sex here just to enjoy it and do it responsibly, they do it in the hope of snaring that illusive husband first and foremost, so you would probably find that the girl WANTED to get pregnant to “put the father-to-be in front of facts” and he should do the “right thing” and marry her.
Why is marriage so important for these women?
I know that it is the best and fastest way for them to leave that suffocating place called home.
Honour Killing is Dying
Americans probably adopt more children from all over the world than any other country. Correct me if Im wrong but I get the feeling that in many Islamic countrys it would be hard if not impossible for me a Christian to adopt a child.
billT
Re(6): with apologies to the elves
You’re a Republican, I believe. There’s nothing “small” about Republican government. Sure, it’s “smaller” than Democrat government – or tries to be – but much in the same way as a diplodocus is “small” compared to argentisaurus. You are no libertarian, whatever you might like to believe. You are an authoritarian, as your comments here repeatedly demonstrate. You get your rocks off telling other people how to live their lives. Yep, just along the road there from those “liberal” Nazis.
Urfi Marriages
Just wanted to point something out: the reason that this woman can face the public whilst pregnant is that she is claiming she had “urfi marriage”. Urfi marriages are the way that young people in Egypt are now evading the system that bans premarital sex: they bring a piece of paper, sign on it, and bring two of their friends to be witnesses. This way they think they are in-line with Islamic teachings (they think it [b]is [/b] a marriage after all) and still have sex with a clear consious. What I’m saying is that repression will just bring out loop holes to beat the system. I would have really been impressed if she just said that she had sex outside marriage. [b]That [/b]would have been really courageous.
Honour Killing is Dying
billT,
My parents (adoptive) had to go to the religious courts of Bahrain first. They were told no repeatedly because they were Americans and Christian. It is my understanding, and I could be wrong, that it is very rare for adoptions to occur in these cases. I feel blessed that “someone” overrulled the religious courts in my case and let my parents both adopt me and take me when they went back to the U.S.
I have heard many accounts of people wanting to go to Sri Lanka and areas that were devastated after the tsunami hoping to help the children left parentless after that tragedy. Only then to be told that those children will not be allowed to be adopted by western Christian parents because of Islamic rules. I hope that has been a misinterpretation and not actual fact but it would seem to be so far.
Honour Killing is Dying
Adoption is rare in islamic societies because the adopted child is not the same blood and therefore the women in the family would have to be veiled at all times and segregated – as to why, you can only guess at the thinking.
Re(1): Honour Killing is Dying
Here in Hawaii at least in the areas that havent been over run by retires there is a strong belief that keikis are precious and everyone should take care of them. Extended familys are normal here. My youngest daughter has numerous aunties and uncles and if something were to happen to me she would be just fine. An example of the hawaiian idea on keikis is what our State AYSO soccer orgnization is doing in Iraq. So far we have started youth soccer programs in Iraq, Paraguay, Samoa and Moscow Russia.
[img]http://aysosection7.org/images/Thekids.jpg[/img]
Re(3): Honour Killing is Dying
Thanks for that explanation. I am now happier than ever before to find out I was adopted rather than being left to “rot” in some orphanage.
Honour Killing is Dying
princess – mahmood ..
not that i know much about islam myself, but from what i understand, sharia does not allow for inheritance in adopted children ..
and one more thing, a significant portion (although not the majority) of the children born out of wedlock in this town is due to incest and rape. until we talk about these issues openly, we aint ever going to go anywhere.
steve .. go easy on the women. we all make mistakes sometimes. just because we end up carrying the child for nine months as the mother doesnt make the responsibility any less for the father ..
JJ
Re: Honour Killing is Dying
I read the same thing. The Muslims in Sri Lanka evidently would rather those children remained orphaned or die than subject them to the possible horror of being raised in an American Christian home where undoubtedly they would be raised to become American sex maniacs dancing unveiled in public to satanic rock ‘n’ roll while pouring whiskey down their gullets at the many orgies we hold at our inumerable dens of inequity.
Steve
Re(1): Honour Killing is Dying
Dude..you have been to my house then. Just kidding..I don’t drink whiskey.
Re: Honour Killing is Dying
Huh? Where did you get this one from? An adoptive son or daughter in Islam is FULL adoption just like anywhere else, with the adoptive parents having all the rights and responsibilities as normal parents, the same with the child as well.
In fact we have another level of adoption as well: “milk adoption” (I don’t know how to translate it properly) which is if a woman breast feeds a baby more than 2 times then that child is AUTOMATICALLY regarded as her son/daughter and her husband would be regarded the same as well. As the child is regarded as brother/sister to the other couple’s children, they cannot marry (obviously) but can mix as normal brothers and sisters in a household.
My father has TONS of these “milk brothers/sisters” in Muharraq where he was born and grew up. The tradition in those days was women of the neighbourhood would all congregate around the natural spring pool to wash clothes, pots and pans and chin-wag and pass the babies along to other mothers with milk. Talk about Russian Roulette! So my brothers, sisters and I have tens of uncles and aunts and you know something, a couple of them STILL visit my dad during Eids or other occasions!
So what you heard is completely incorrect.
Re(1): Honour Killing is Dying
Mahmood,
Your information in religion is worse than mine 😉
Considering we are both “Sayed”, I find this hilarious to say the least!
The Johnster is right here, I think!
Take a look at the orphan centre (Child Care Home) or whatever they call it in Gudaibiya.
The girls get snatched immediately while the Abdulla Abdulrahmans (that’s what they call the boys) are left to rot there.
Nobody wants to adopt the boys because they are [b]not[/b] considered like one’s own child and the women of the house (the mother) cannot treat them like her own and has to cover up in front of them, etc, etc!
Re(6): with apologies to the elves
American politically conservative politicians believe in smaller government by removing the depeartments that they don’t agree with ideologically, and then giving everyone tax cuts so the rest dies from underfunding.
Libertarians, on the other hand, believe in cutting government down so small that it’d become federal anarchy.
Somewhere in between these two extremes are the ‘fiscal conservatives’ (like me!) who believe that Government’s budget should always be balanced, pork should always be illegal, and strict fiscal accountability on pain of death (or something suitably scary)
– Ethan
Re(2): Honour Killing is Dying
Damn, caught again and I should keep my mouth shut, or at least research. But to me what I said is logical is it not? Now I know better, thanks for correcting me.
I found this which sheds more light on the subject:
Re(3): Honour Killing is Dying
Mahmood:
What you said is logical. An adoptive child should be treated as any other. Leaving them there to ‘rot’.. that’s inhuman. Everyone deserves a loving home and a family.
Treating them as an outsider? What kind of crap is that?
Re: Honour Killing is Dying
JJ,
The cads who abandon their children are bad guys who deserve whatever scorn falls on their head. We agree there.
But we’re hip deep in single mothers here to the detriment of their wild children and the society which has to make good on their mistakes in many ways. The reckless girls should not get a complete free pass lest their behavior propagate to the next generation. Somebody should criticize them enough to stop their younger sisters from following their bad example.
I’m convinced that making the best of a bad situation in this case makes it worse in the long run.
Steve
Re(1): Honour Killing is Dying
Steve,
We’re also hip deep in unwed fathers who also need to be criticized to stop their younger brothers from following their example. There used to be a time when the only thing more shameful than an unwed mother was the man who would not do the ‘honorable thing’ and marry the woman he impregnated. We’ve become a society too reluctant to pass judgement, even on behavior that acts to our detriment.
Honour Killing is Dying
Writen “Still alive in Pakistan!
PESHAWAR: A tribal jirga in Sindh has decided to kill a woman doctor who was allegedly gang raped in Sui to restore the “lost honourâ€? of her tribe, a Pakistan Medical Association (PMA) official told a press conference on Wednesday. PMA President Dr Umer Ayub said the husband and in-laws of the doctor had told him of the jirga or local council’s decision in Gumbat Khairpur. He demanded the members of the jirga be arrested, and the alleged rapists of the doctor be hanged at Minar-e-Pakistan to deter such crimes. He criticised the federal interior minister for not visiting the woman doctor and her family. He also slammed the NWFP Assembly for not condemning the alleged rape. ”
Completely un-Islamic. Time for a proper representation of Islam to keep this stuff from happening.
Malik
Honour Killing is Dying
Mahmood writes “Malik, “temporary” marriages do have their places. They are fully sanctioned in Islam regardless of what we personally think. And it shouldn’t be in secret, there is nothing secrative about the temporary marriage, and its contract is actually more specific than the permanent one with rules specifically for inheritence and children etc. ”
They are fully sanction in some people’s Islam. Not all schools accept it. It is practiced in Saudi Arabia(of all places), but I think it is at it’s zenith in Iran and Shi’a areas. I believe it is nothing more than a way to have sex and try to give it a legitimate Islamic veneer. In Iran they have brothels where you can get a temp marriage, pay your money(dowry), have sex, then get divorced. Nonsense and not Islamic no matter who says it is.
Malik
Honour Killing is Dying
Mahmood writes “Yes, but we’re not talking about having children in or out of wedlock, we’re talking about responsible sex; when it’s okay for a male to go around with (as we say in Bahrain) his dick on his shoulder looking for any hole to put it in, while it’s most definitely NOT okay for a woman to seek pleasure unless that is sanctioned by religion?
Why – practically – apply religion only to a woman’s natural needs and wants and discount it completely for men?
This woman did marry legally through what is called “urf” in Egypt (which is different I suspect than the Shi’a’s Muta’a temporary marriage) and got pregnant. Isn’t it the child’s right to have a father and for the father to unequivocally acknowledge it as his? ”
This is cultural rather than religion. The religion says men and women’s sexuality is treated the same. The culture says otherwise. Time for more religion and less culture.
Malik
Honour Killing is Dying
Mahmood writes “Why indeed. And why is it okay for a man to go around spreading his seed willy nilly without having to face up to the possible responsibility of parenthood. In this case, isn’t it better to acknowledge the legality of temprary marriages like the Muta’a where a man would be held legally responsible for the woman and her child from him in alimony, inheritence and the rest of it?
Or should we just resort to ‘honour killing’ where we punish a woman for seeking pleasure which is a natural function?
What is honour killings anyway, how is honour going to be restored to a family by slitting a daughter, sister, mother’s throat?
If it’s that important to some people, why is the honour killing not applied to men as well where a daughter, sister, mother would slit a brother, son, father’s throat for having extra-marital sex? ”
We should do none of the above. We should stick to the real Islamic model, not the nonsense cultural model. It is no more okay, religiously, for a man to mess around than it is for a woman. It is the culture that says otherwise. God knew the problems that out of marriage sex led to, that is why it is not legal. The temporary marriages are a sham that is why they are leading to the same sort of nonsense that out of wedlock sex leads to. Honour killing is not Islamic, it is cultural. In Islam one is only held responsible for their own sins, so the idea that the sins of a daugter or son can pass to the family is nonsense.
Malik
Re: Honour Killing is Dying
Malik,
[quote]Honour killing is not Islamic, it is cultural. [/quote]
If it is cultural, do middle eastern Christian women endure honor killings too? The CHristians would be of the same culture as the Muslims.
Re: Honour Killing is Dying
Generalisations Malik, it doesn’t become you.
The premise that brothels operate like that in Iran might be true, I don’t know as I’ve never been to Iran to witness it myself, nor did I hear of this thing practiced in the manner you describe.
What I know of temporary/Muta’a marriage is that it is more stringent than regular full marriage. The principal of it I can understand – the many divorced/widowed women who need a companion. It is not allowed to enter into a Muta’a agreement with virgins. The many wars that abounded at that time that left quite a lot of widowed and destitute women, etc etc.
But you will have to go talk to a scholar to explain the intricacies of such a thing. It most certainly was not designed for whoring. One rule I know is true about it is that you are NOT allowed to enter into a Muta’a relationship for less than 3 days. After those 3 days the woman MUST stay unmarried for at least 40 days to ensure that she is not with child. If she is, then the father is known and is called upon for all paternal duties.
Just that I or you see it as “illogical” or “haram” is not enough to condemn it or its practice. Other sects, many million strong accept it as gospel truth. So we should just respect that it IS allowed in some interpretations of Islam without having to low-ball it’s proponents.
Honour Killing is Dying
Mahmood writes “What I know of temporary/Muta’a marriage is that it is more stringent than regular full marriage. The principal of it I can understand – the many divorced/widowed women who need a companion. It is not allowed to enter into a Muta’a agreement with virgins. The many wars that abounded at that time that left quite a lot of widowed and destitute women, etc etc.”
Historically yes, but we are not talking historically, we are talking here and now. That is one of the big problems with Islam, misusing historical context to justify current actions. Like plural marriages. It was never intended for horney old men to marry 100 times. It was intended to help support women who had no family. This is were ijtihad needs to come in. There is almost no reason in the modern world for plural marriages, hence except under exceptional circumstance, it should be banned.
The woman in question was not a miskeena, she was a well to do lady. Doesnt exactly match the criteria you laid out.
Malik
Honour Killing is Dying
Written “If it is cultural, do middle eastern Christian women endure honor killings too? The CHristians would be of the same culture as the Muslims. ”
Yes, as a matter of fact, they do. Honour killings are very common in Hindu India and common in Catholic Central and South America. So much so 60 minutes aired a show on it a few years back.
Malik
Re: Honour Killing is Dying
What about Christian women in the middle-east?
Re: Honour Killing is Dying
[quote]Time for more religion and less culture. [/quote]
The Taliban said that, Malik.
Then they smashed all of the arworks in the Kabul Museum, and blew up the Bamiyan Buddahs.
Re(1): Honour Killing is Dying
I lived in Peru and Venezuela many years ago. I don’t recall hearing of honor killings; I certainly don’t recall ever hearing of a father slitting his daughter’s throat for promiscuity. I suspect laws may have been lenient towards men who killed their wives in “crimes of passion.” I am under the impression many children in Latin American are born out of wedlock and welcomed into the family with marriage between the parents to follow at a later date.
Re: Honour Killing is Dying
Malik
Was that a DAN RATHER report on 60 Mins? Yep LOTS of credibility there.
Honour Killing is Dying
Ethan writes “The Taliban said that, Malik.
Then they smashed all of the arworks in the Kabul Museum, and blew up the Bamiyan Buddahs. ”
The Taliban did not practice Islam in any recognisable form to the vast majority of Muslims.
Malik
Honour Killing is Dying
Writen “I lived in Peru and Venezuela many years ago. I don’t recall hearing of honor killings; I certainly don’t recall ever hearing of a father slitting his daughter’s throat for promiscuity. I suspect laws may have been lenient towards men who killed their wives in “crimes of passion.” I am under the impression many children in Latin American are born out of wedlock and welcomed into the family with marriage between the parents to follow at a later date. ”
The culture that makes these sort of things possible exists in both the Middle East and Central and South America. The places are so similar, from a cultural standpoint, that many shows in the Middle East are now dubbed into Spanish and the other way around because, as societies, their norms are so similar. Odd watching a Arabic dubbed Brazilian show on an Egpytian tv channel.
Honour killings happen all over the world. It is not an Islamic thing. It is a cultural thing. They are a particular in Hindu India.
Malik
Re: Honour Killing is Dying
But Malik, I didn’t lay it out. Islam did and does.
You’re on dangerous grounds here my friend, sounds like you’re saying that Islam should be divided into historical, current and political spheres and throwing out the historical part… Isn’t Islam a “complete” religion for all human being and all times?
Re: Honour Killing is Dying
[quote]what we need in our part of the world are mirrors. for people to look into them and see themselves for who they really are – an make a decision of whether they are going to be hypocrites and have double standards? or do they want to evolve from an open starting base.[/quote]
Jasra
I think those mirrors apply to all of us no matter where we live. Shame is that some can look in a mirror and refuse to believe what their eyes show them. Me I dont have a spare tire around the middle.
billT
[Modified by: billT (billT) on February 02, 2005 11:07 AM]
Honour Killing is Dying
malik ..
i am going to go out on a limb and support you on this. i agree that it is culture subsumed into religion. and i also think that it is impossible to separate the two at this point in time in our arab-moslem history. and until we are, i am afraid that we are going to remain in the dark ages for a while yet.
whether it is ‘muta’ or ‘misyar’ or ‘urf
Re(1): Honour Killing is Dying
i totally agree