This is the demo that collapsed the Lebanese government. There is still a lot of power which can be exerted peacefully in the Arab world to effect change.
The irony for us Bahrainis is that this is Lebanon, and not a single Hizbullah flag is in sight. Any demo in Bahrain would be full of them. But that’s an aside…
If Abdulemam is wrongly charged and not set free, we (Bahrainis) should consider such a peaceful demonstration to show that (1) we are patriotic and love this country and its leadership, (2) show that we are completely opposed to unwarranted censorship, and (3) we require that the press law be repealed and personal freedoms guaranteed by the constitution.
Comments
Re(1): The power of many
Mahmood writes “There is also nothing ambiguous about my assertion that we do love this country and its leadership. I see no conflict there. ”
Indeed, one the best ways to prove your love for your own country is to be able to take a stand for what you think is its best interest. Here in the US we have a culture of silence at the moment. Anyone critical of US policies is seen as anti-American. This is not the case. Those who love their country wish to see positive change and wish to fix things that are broken. The more people that stand up and make their voice heard the better.
Re(2): The power of many
[quote]Here in the US we have a culture of silence at the moment. Anyone critical of US policies is seen as anti-American. [/quote]
At least we can say one thing, Malik. You’re not posting this message from a detention center where you have been held pending trial for your writings.
Apparently it’s not quite as bad as Iran or Bahrain yet. Equating the repression in Iran and Bahrain makes me ill – I apologize, Mahmood, and every other Bahraini here for that.
Re(3): The power of many
Ethan writes “At least we can say one thing, Malik. You’re not posting this message from a detention center where you have been held pending trial for your writings.
Apparently it’s not quite as bad as Iran or Bahrain yet. Equating the repression in Iran and Bahrain makes me ill – I apologize, Mahmood, and every other Bahraini here for that. ”
Ethan is part of the problem! Nowhere did I equate the repression in Iran, or elsewhere, with what is happening in the USA, that is your brain child, not mine!
The fact is, as long as there is a section of society, and at the moment is a huge one, that tries to silence critics with cries of “un-Americanism” there is no real freedom of speech. It is sad you have to point to Iran to prove how great things are here. BTW…..it might interest you to note there are American citizens being held in US prisons without access to courts and who have not been charged. It is unclear if they ever will be. Not the America I know and love!
Re: The power of many
Princess, my dear,
Has it occurred to you that what follows in Lebanon could be better than before? You might consider that things improve through action and stagnate through inaction.
Steve
Re(4): The power of many
Malik,
Your argument is flawed in that you mistake critique of your position for censorship. You chose to erect a straw man of censorship to evade defending your positions. You also evade the point that your positions are dogmatically anti-American. While patriots do criticize America on occassion when necessary, traitors do it all the time reflexively.
Steve
The power of many
“Here in the US we have a culture of silence at the moment. Anyone critical of US policies is seen as anti-American.”
Oh baloney. Anyone wishing to see the US fail in Iraq is seen as anti-American, which is what they are. But many critices of US policies, like Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Joe Lieberman, Andrew Sullivan, Thomas Friedman etc. and so on, are certainly NOT seen as anti-American.
— James C.
Re(1): The power of many
Steve writes “Princess, my dear,
Has it occurred to you that what follows in Lebanon could be better than before? You might consider that things improve through action and stagnate through inaction.
Steve ”
Exactly Steve. Which is why if you feel that Saudi Arabia is so much of a threat to the security of the US you ought to do something about it! You know, dont let your stagnation and inaction let Saudi Arabia destroy the US?
Re: The power of many
Written “Oh baloney. Anyone wishing to see the US fail in Iraq is seen as anti-American, which is what they are. But many critices of US policies, like Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Joe Lieberman, Andrew Sullivan, Thomas Friedman etc. and so on, are certainly NOT seen as anti-American.
— James C. ”
I have seen all of them, at one point or another, called anti-American. I dont wish to see the US fail in Iraq because I care about the Iraqi people. I wish to see an adjustment in US foreign policy so we can shore up our support in the world, have a moral foreign policy, and pull the rug from under al-Queda.
The power of many
May I point out that the Lebanese are conducting their intifada against the murderous Syrian occupation peacefully. They are making public demonstrations en masse to make their point. They call for democracy.
What they are not doing is assassinating Syrians, car bombing them, nor beheading them.
As a result, they have already toppled the puppet government of the Syrians and have positioned themselves to advance further toward self determination. They enjoy nearly universal support.
There is a lesson here for the rest of the Middle East. Has everyone absorbed it?
Steve
Re(5): The power of many
“there is no real freedom of speech.”
This is pure bullshit.
Please give us an example of the government stifling free speech.
When a film openly accusing the government of lying and incompetence becomes the top-grossing “documentary” of all time, that’s freedom of speech.
When a new national radio network is launched for the express purpose of criticizing the government 24/7, that’s freedom of speech.
There is not a single media outlet that has come under government sanction or threat for airing its views. “No freedom of speech” my ass.
— James C.
The power of many
“Has everyone absorbed it?”
I think the Arabs are absorbing it as we speak. I think the Western Left refuses to absorb it, because to do so would require admitting that just maybe Bush was actually right about something, and they simply refuse to do this under any circumstances.
— James C.
Re: The power of many
Steve writes “May I point out that the Lebanese are conducting their intifada against the murderous Syrian occupation peacefully. They are making public demonstrations en masse to make their point. They call for democracy. ”
Indeed, it is what I think the Palestinians should do. It wouldnt be but a year or two before Israel would have to give them their state or become a pariah state like South Africa.
Steve writes “What they are not doing is assassinating Syrians, car bombing them, nor beheading them.
As a result, they have already toppled the puppet government of the Syrians and have positioned themselves to advance further toward self determination. They enjoy nearly universal support. ”
If the Syrians had responded to the protests with rocket fire and targeted assasinations, you can bet your next pay packet there would have been car bombs, suicide bombs and the rest. Everyone, including Israel, take note of this.
Re(4): The power of many
As much as I love my country, I have to say that I somewhat agree. I have never had so many people get extremely upset if my political views differ from theirs. To the point where people will ask me stupid questions like “Don’t you want us to be safe?” Or if I critsize past actions in the middle east that may have helped developed the currant situation ( I don’t believe in any way shape or form that it is entirely the Us’ falt, too many other factors are involved and in some cases we are just an easy scapegoat ) I have been accused of sympathizing with the terrorists. It’s just nuts how divided we are. Make no mistake, it is not just the conservitives. I have heard just as much stupidity from the left also ( Oh, no! how can you agree with Bush about anything!!) Somedays, I just want to stand up and scream.
[i]BTW…..it might interest you to note there are American citizens being held in US prisons without access to courts and who have not been charged. It is unclear if they ever will be.[/i]
Check this out: http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/01/padilla.ruling/index.html
Christie
Re(5): The power of many
Great post Christie. As an American convert to Islam from a European background I get this all of the time. People accuse me of supporting the terrorists, not being a real American, being a traitor, you name it. It doesnt matter that I work for the US government or that I spent years abroad working for the US Department of Defense. This is a sick form of censorship.
Thank you for the link on Jose Padilla. It is amazing that the American people have not rising in protest over Bush thinking that he can keep American citizens, arrested on American soil, in prison forever without charge or trial. Trust me, if they had the evidence they would have charged him. This cse is very similiar to the man recently charged with a plan to kill the president. They let the Saudis keep him and torture him for years because they had little or no proof. When forced to bring him to the US they made weak charges that will quickly fall.
The power of many
Posted by: Anonymous on March 01, 2005 02:34 PM
…………….. that just maybe Bush was actually right about something,
— James C.
………………..Let president Dubya nuke the rest of the ME (save Israel) to prove how right he really really is.
Re(6): The power of many
Malik, can you cite a single example of the US government censoring speech that is anti-Bush in nature?
Just one?
Pretty please?
I didn’t think so.
Because “people don’t like my views” doesn’t count as censorship. Grow up and be an adult for chrissakes. I’m an atheist living in Jesusland and guess what? People down here don’t like my views on religion. Am I censored? Only if I’m a coward. And that’s [i]self[/i] censorship, which I refuse to partake in.
You also might have noticed that about 50% of the country LOATHES Bush and bursts into riotious applause whenever anyone bashes the administration. That’s censorship? Only a coddled Westerner with no concept of what censorship actually is could even make such a suggestion.
— James C.
The power of many
“Let president Dubya nuke the rest of the ME (save Israel) to prove how right he really really is.”
Thank you for illustrating my point so effectively.
Re: The power of many
I still want to see what Bush does when one of these elected governments tells him to remove his military from their land. The US does not have a good track record dealing with democratic elections where it doesnt like the result, perfect example is US support for a military coup in Algeria after Islamic parties won the election there. This says “we support democracy, as long as you vote for who we like.”
Re(7): The power of many
I can’t speak for Malik, however, I wasn’t speaking of governmental censorship. I have never been, nor will I ever be, afraid to let my opinion be known.
The atmosphere in this country, especially right before and right after the election was just ridiculous. No one wanted to discuss any issue rationally. Everything was to one extreme or another. If I am told I am stupid and a traitor and I should move because I don’t agree with their point of view, how is this not a form of censorship along the lines of “You don’t agree with me so you should leave your home and go find someplace else to live”? Essentially, it is censorship in the form of peer pressure. Or rather an attempt at it I should say.
[i]You also might have noticed that about 50% of the country LOATHES Bush and bursts into riotious applause whenever anyone bashes the administration. [/i]
This is just as stupid as the other side. But consider, if you are the only Bush supporter in a discussion group and you attempt to state your opinion on some subject and the other people won’t allow you to finnish a thought and you are called names like facist or warmonger. That is a form of censorship.
It is the group dynamics I observed that I was speaking of when talking about censorship.
Or maybe you have a better word for it?
Christie
Re(8): The power of many
I agree with you Christie, but I believe the level at which this is at is almost unprecendented. I think it goes back to fear mongering. Anyone who dares to speak any dissent is silenced. Yes, I always love the lines “love it or leave it”. These people are the very ones who do not understand what makes America great!
The power of many
I still want to see what Bush does when one of these elected governments tells him to remove his military from their land……………….
#
In Bahrain we have similarly bitter memories of the double standards of US officialdom.
Soon after some members of (the fullly elected) Bahraini Parliament raised the issue of American bases in Jufair in 1974 …they saw their shop shut down with the blessings of Nixon adminstration.
US governments support continued throughout the following three decades. Systematic violations of human rights, including death of detainees under torture, were considered, to recall the words uttered by Secretary Albright in a different context, a price worth paying.
Re(6): The power of many
[quote]Malik: It is amazing that the American people have not rising in protest over Bush thinking that he can keep American citizens, arrested on American soil, in prison forever without charge or trial. Trust me, if they had the evidence they would have charged him. [/quote]
On the contrary, the US government is oftentimes placed in the awkward position of holding damning evidence against perpetrators which has been gathered by intelligence agencies but which they can not make public because it compromises their methods of collection or because no law covers the particular treasonous act committed or because the disadvantages to national security outweight the advantages of prosecuting.
For example, one Japanese American worked as an intelligence agent for the Japanese in Hawaii before WWII, collecting public information on Navy activities in Pearl Harbor, taking photos, and forwarding this on to the Japanese military via the Japanese consulate in Hawaii. The intelligence services intercepted the radio traffic from the consulate and identified the traitor. However, there was no law prohibiting the collection and transmission of public information to the enemy, even in preparation for attack.
The government chose to move him off Hawaii to a relocation camp, not an internment camp, in the mainland. He was not charged nor prosecuted because the government realized that it would reveal that it would reveal to the Japanese that we were decrypting their radio transmissions. The government decided that the agent was no longer a threat as long as he was separated from his intelligence network and located away from any defense infrastructure.
In the end he got an apology and a check from the US government in the 1980s for being inconvenienced by his relocation and continued to live in the country he helped attack.
[quote]Malik: This cse is very similiar to the man recently charged with a plan to kill the president. They let the Saudis keep him and torture him for years because they had little or no proof. When forced to bring him to the US they made weak charges that will quickly fall.[/quote]
That’s quite a lot of speculation about everyone’s motives. First, the US did not “let” the Saudis keep him. He was arrested in Saudi Arabia when the US revealed his terrorist ties. The Saudis don’t give anybody up to the US, including American women held against their will in Saudi Arabia by their Saudi fathers.
There is no proof that this would be presidential assassin was tortured by the Saudis, not that there would be anything wrong with that. He refuses to submit himself to a medical examination that would establish the facts. That sounds like he doesn’t want the facts established, that they would not support his claim. I might also remind everyone that Al Qaeda explicitly directs its captive terrorists to loudly claim they are being tortured as part of their resistance. This wannabe assassin seems to be following that Al Qaeda playbook.
I also note that you take the word of this wannabe Al Qaeda terror planner at face value while attributing dark motives to the US based on your biased speculation. That indicates where exactly your sympathies lie.
Steve
Re(5): The power of many
Malik didn’t equate critique with censorship, Ethan took it down that road.
What Mailk pointed out is that there is no real discussion. Espouse a position and all you get is name calling.
Popular debates in America don’t discuss the issues anymore.
True, no one’s been so much as detained in the US for anything they have said, yet. But signs abound that tolerance for real debateis waning thin
Re(1): The power of many
The difference is that the Lebanese chose peaceful means to overthrow their foreign occupation. They did not create an elaborate terrorist apparatus to kill Syrians in their homes, restaurants, buses, and shopping centers. There are no bomb factories and terror chieftains among the Lebanese for the Syrians to target nor justification for such action. Instead they have chosen a peaceful intifada to overcome their foreign oppressors and consequently have made amazing progress, more progress than a decade of blowing civilians into bloody chunks has brought in Palestine.
For once, an Arab nation is chosing peaceful resistance to improve its political situation and it’s working.
Think about it.
Steve
Re(7): The power of many
Written “On the contrary, the US government is oftentimes placed in the awkward position of holding damning evidence against perpetrators which has been gathered by intelligence agencies but which they can not make public because it compromises their methods of collection or because no law covers the particular treasonous act committed or because the disadvantages to national security outweight the advantages of prosecuting. ”
Yes, or they can just use this claim to justify holding people they cannot charge.
Steve writes “There is no proof that this would be presidential assassin was tortured by the Saudis, not that there would be anything wrong with that.”
Why doesnt it suprise me that you support torture, let alone torture for someone convicted of no crime?
Steve writes “I also note that you take the word of this wannabe Al Qaeda terror planner at face value while attributing dark motives to the US based on your biased speculation. That indicates where exactly your sympathies lie. ”
No, I am an American, as such I believe in an individual’s innocence before being found guilty! Calling yourself “Steve the American” you should be aware of our freedoms here, but considering you condone torture, these freedoms do not seem to mean anything to you!
Re(6): The power of many
DIB writes “Malik didn’t equate critique with censorship, Ethan took it down that road.
What Mailk pointed out is that there is no real discussion. Espouse a position and all you get is name calling.
Popular debates in America don’t discuss the issues anymore.
True, no one’s been so much as detained in the US for anything they have said, yet. But signs abound that tolerance for real debateis waning thin.”
Alayk Nur! Someone gets it! There can be no real debate in the US because people who try to discuss anything controversial are label and hounded. Michael Sheuer, former head of the CIA bin Laden desk says the only hope for the US is an open and honest debate. I agreed with him when he wrote he doesnt see that happening anytime soon. Too many special interests have a lot to loose.
The power of many
Mahmood…please…help..do something about this.
Re(8): The power of many
So Malik, your inability to cite a single example of government censorship sorta makes your cries of “no freedom of speech” kinda silly, don’t you think?
If you were really refering to the atmosphere of partsianship — which impacts me as much as it impacts you — then you simply don’t have a point. NO ONE is telling you what to say, and NO ONE is threatening you with arrest if you say what you want.
You’ve got all the freedom of speech you need. If you’re too scared to use it, that’s hardly the Bush administration’s fault, is it?
— James C.
Re(9): The power of many
James writes “So Malik, your inability to cite a single example of government censorship sorta makes your cries of “no freedom of speech” kinda silly, don’t you think?”
I never claimed that the US government was censoring people, Ethan tried to put that claim in my mouth. It didnt work for him, it wont work for you. My claim, as it has been supported by others here, is that there is a culture of silence and self censorship here in the USA. Speak out and if you do not agree with the status quo you are labeled and blackballed.
Written “then you simply don’t have a point. NO ONE is telling you what to say, and NO ONE is threatening you with arrest if you say what you want.”
I never claimed that they were, I simply stated that our culture now is not one that promotes freedom of speech. If you speak out you risk your career, your friends, your reputation.
Written “You’ve got all the freedom of speech you need. If you’re too scared to use it, that’s hardly the Bush administration’s fault, is it? ”
I am hardly scared. My politics are common knowledge in my workspace. When I resigned from the DoD I wrote a scathing letter to the European edition of the Stars and Stripes that was then printed, although edited a bit. Scared? Nope! I dont care! I speak my mind and dont give a toss what people think.
Re(4): The power of many
[quote] Ethan is part of the problem! Nowhere did I equate the repression in Iran, or elsewhere, with what is happening in the USA, that is your brain child, not mine! [/quote]
Buh?
I equated the repression in Bahrain and Iran. I apologized for it preemptively, because barring North Korea (whose entire dogma is about repression), there are few regimes as oppresive as the Iranians.
Bahrain is nowhere near that.
Re(5): The power of many
Blah. I hit submit instead of preview.
I meant to finish up with:
There is no mass media repression in the US. You are free to critique the government. You are free to write articles about how Bush is a moron!
Malik is not talking about the same thing as Mahmood. Nobody in the US has been jailed for expressing an opinion. They have been jailed on suspicions. Now, I’m not going to say that they shouldn’t be charged! However, the same type of repression does not happen in the US as does in other countries.
Re(6): The power of many
[quote]What Mailk pointed out is that there is no real discussion. Espouse a position and all you get is name calling. [/quote]
True. But it’s better to be called names than tossed into prison! 🙂
[quote]But signs abound that tolerance for real debateis waning thin[/quote]
This has been happening for the past 30 years. It’s terribly sad.
Re(6): The power of many
Written “Now, I’m not going to say that they shouldn’t be charged! However, the same type of repression does not happen in the US as does in other countries. ”
No one claimed that it does. The claim is that some elements like to stiffle debate by other means. Those that through the term “unAmerican” around are those that do not understand what it means to be American or what makes this country great! If these people want to live in a country where dissent can cost them their freedom or their citizenship I suggest they move.
Re(7): The power of many
[quote]There is no proof that this would be presidential assassin was tortured by the Saudis, not that there would be anything wrong with that.[/quote]
Treading on thin ground here, Steve.
[quote]He refuses to submit himself to a medical examination that would establish the facts. That sounds like he doesn’t want the facts established, that they would not support his claim. I might also remind everyone that Al Qaeda explicitly directs its captive terrorists to loudly claim they are being tortured as part of their resistance. This wannabe assassin seems to be following that Al Qaeda playbook. [/quote]
This however, [b]is[/b] true.
He has not submitted to any exam, and he had previously said that he was not tortured. His lawyer, on the other hand, has said that he was, and only his lawyer has seen the ‘evidence’ of torture.
This case seems to be a case of ‘Lawfare’ – as the term was coined by another blogger. The Lawyer working every possible ‘whip up public opinion’ angle to discredit the case publically before the trail happens.
It -should- be illegal to do that. Cases are built and fall on -fact-, not some halfwit opinion by a woefully uninformed public that doesn’t know better.
Re(8): The power of many
Ethan writes “Treading on thin ground here, Steve. ”
No, he is not. He is openly expressing support for the torture of a man who has been convicted of nothing. Were he an Islamic extremist instead of an American far right nationalist we would have half a dozen people writing him obscenities here. Hypocrisy!
Ethan writes “This however, is true. He has not submitted to any exam, and he had previously said that he was not tortured. His lawyer, on the other hand, has said that he was, and only his lawyer has seen the ‘evidence’ of torture.”
I suppose if you were being tortured by the Saudis, in a Saudi prison, you would tell everyone about it so you could get worse? The allegations of torture have been around for sometime, not just after his transfer to the US. But you guys make me laugh, Saudi Arabia is the devil incarnate for you guys, the source of all evil, now both of you deny that the Saudis would torture him? LOL! If he was an American Christian I am sure you would have no doubt the Saudis tortured him, but because he is accused of being an extremist you guys have a real problem knowing who to hate worse! Seems in this case the Saudis suddenly become believable to you. Pay no attention to the fact that US forces have been shipping suspects to places like Saudi, Egypt and Jordan for sometime because they know that the authorities in these places can apply “methods” they cannot.
Glad to see that suddenly Saudi Arabia, formerly the nation of the devil guilty of all evil, has now been redeemed. Guess Steve wont have to level Saudi cities from his armchair now.
Re(1): The power of many
Hmm.
Are you Anti-American if you want the USA to fail?
This is an intriguing question. Anti-Americanism is not supposed to be ‘loyal opposition’. If I didn’t believe in the war initially (which I didn’t), that doesn’t make me anti-American.
Once the government made it’s decision, I didn’t have to be happy – but it’s pointless to wish ill on the government because it didn’t do what I wanted. It’s not going to change anything.
It’s like the child who wants a toy and mom says no. Is it going to help if you pitch a fit? Not if mom is a good parent. It only makes you look like a whiny little snit.
All of those anti-war protestors were being completely American up to a point.
Most still are.
But there’s a subfaction of protestors who actively want the US to fail because they hate George Bush. That’s spiteful. To call suicide bombers ‘minutemen’ and compare those who were killed in the WTC ‘little Eichmanns’? That’s poor taste!
That is Anti-Americanism. It’s not ‘loyal opposition’. It’s not starting a debate, it’s stating a callous disregard for the facts and a contempt not only for your fellow countrymen, but also for the poor Iraqis who are standing around waiting for job interviews or shopping at the market and get blown up.
Stating disapproval, and offering alternatives is one thing. Shouting ‘I FUCKING HATE BUSH BECAUSE HE RUINED AMERICA’ from the roof of your middle class suburban house when nothing of any note has happened to you in the past 8 years is not only ludicrous, but stupid on many levels.
The Democrats ESPECIALLY need to learn this. They didn’t lose because more people like Bush. They lost because they didn’t have alternatives, and ran on the ticket of ‘We’re not Bush’.
Political hate only goes so far. What the world needs is a -civil- debate, not Hate.
Re(9): The power of many
Malik, breathe.
I’m not going to take any allegations of torture seriously unless I have proof. Sometimes it’s easy to see. But for someone who is claiming that he was tortured, but refused to produce any proof of it is like someone claiming to have seen God and producing only his own words.
You really don’t like the idea of evidence, do you?
Abu Ghraib? Evidence.
Guantanamo? Evidence.
This guy? No evidence yet.
Re(2): The power of many
Ethan writes “But there’s a subfaction of protestors who actively want the US to fail because they hate George Bush. That’s spiteful. To call suicide bombers ‘minutemen’ and compare those who were killed in the WTC ‘little Eichmanns’? That’s poor taste!
That is Anti-Americanism. It’s not ‘loyal opposition’. It’s not starting a debate, it’s stating a callous disregard for the facts and a contempt not only for your fellow countrymen, but also for the poor Iraqis who are standing around waiting for job interviews or shopping at the market and get blown up. ”
Those people are the exact opposite of Steve. Steve thinks being a true American means advocating torture, the carpet bombing and removal of whole nation states. People like this need to be condemned on both sides. The problem is people like Steve are not called on it by people like yourself when they advocate torture of suspects. But here you have no issue at having a go at those on the other end. Why is that? Why is Steves promotion of toture “walking on a thin line” when you are more than willing to slam his polar opposites?
That is what it has come to in this society. Calling Bush a liar and irresponsible makes you an anti-American, but calling for torture of suspects and destruction of nation states is “walking a thin line”. Have some balance here, get some moral backbone. Treat Steve with his the same deserved contempt you would treat any other extremist. The fact that you find his extremism somehow less offensive shows your true colours.
Re: The power of many
[quote]Let president Dubya nuke the rest of the ME (save Israel) to prove how right he really really is.[/quote]
Woah there, Skippy.
We’re not the Nuke Mecca crowd here. If you nike the ME, you kill Mahmood, and Jasra and peacefulmuslimah, Dr. Abdel-Hadi and a lot of other people I happen to like over there.
Maybe when we’re done ‘nuking the middle east’ we could hunt you down and kill all of your friends too. Hm?
Re(3): The power of many
I warn Steve softly because I see how he reacts to harsh words. It’s called diplomacy.
Case in point: This blog entry.
Re(1): The power of many
[quote]US support for a military coup in Algeria after Islamic parties won the election there. This says “we support democracy, as long as you vote for who we like.”[/quote]
Let us not ignore France in the story of Algeria, hm?
Or the fact that the elected parties weren’t exactly pro-democracy, and were bent on dismantling the apparatus that elected them.
Re(10): The power of many
Ethan writes “I’m not going to take any allegations of torture seriously unless I have proof. Sometimes it’s easy to see. But for someone who is claiming that he was tortured, but refused to produce any proof of it is like someone claiming to have seen God and producing only his own words.”
Again, answer the question. If you were in Saudi custody and being tortured, would you make an issue out of it? Why do you seem to want to extend the benefit of the doubt to the Saudis now, when you would not do so in any other occassion? Could this be because the US asked for him to be detained and any mistreatment might reflect on the US? You are using two sets of standards, and what is worse, I dont think you even see it.
Ethan writes “You really don’t like the idea of evidence, do you?
Abu Ghraib? Evidence.
Guantanamo? Evidence.
This guy? No evidence yet.”
You dont like the idea of consistant standards do you? You and Steve blame Saudi Arabia for almost everything imaginable, but think they deserve the benefit of the doubt on this one? Steve wants to torture suspects, but seems to want to argue this guy was never tortured. Based on what you know about the Saudis and their methods what do you find unbelievable about the accounts of torture?
As to Abu Ghraib, I am still waiting for the classified portions of the report to get out. The portions that document the rape of female detainees. Senate staffers have already reported seeing images of women being forced to expose themselves. People who have read the report note numerous instances of “forced sex” (otherwise known as rape) involving Iraqi men and women. Seems that certain segments of the American military have learned from their contacts with the Saudis military/intelligence, who are known for such things.
Re(2): The power of many
Ethan writes “Let us not ignore France in the story of Algeria, hm?
Or the fact that the elected parties weren’t exactly pro-democracy, and were bent on dismantling the apparatus that elected them. ”
So you too support the idea that the people have the right to choose who leads them as long as they conform to yours, or someone elses ideas? Is this democracy? Not in any school I ever attended. All democracies have hard beginings, no one can say the Muslim and Arab world will be any different, but their populations MUST be free to choose the types of governments they want without interference. This is the only way a home grown version will take root and flower
Re(9): The power of many
[quote]Ethan writes “Treading on thin ground here, Steve. ”
Malik: No, he is not. He is openly expressing support for the torture of a man who has been convicted of nothing. Were he an Islamic extremist instead of an American far right nationalist we would have half a dozen people writing him obscenities here. Hypocrisy! [/quote]
Now, Ethan, I wouldn’t approve of Americans torturing an American in America. That would be bad. However, I do take a certain satisfaction in a wannabe assassin and eager promoter of terrorist attacks, a traitor to his own America, being locked up by the very nation which inspired and encouraged him in such goals and beating the hell out of him. I see it as an example of the duplicitous Saudis eating their own converts. I savor the irony and the rough justice of it. Now it’s too bad if he had a rough go of it in a Saudi prison before he could carry out his plans to kill Americans but hey, stuff happens. It’s in a foreign country. We don’t make the laws there. We don’t run Saudi Arabia. It’s just a damned shame that this poor terrorist didn’t find the reception he expected in Saudi Arabia.
And Malik, I have been perfectly consistent in my opposition to the Islamists and their demon spawn, Al Qaeda. Watching an Al Qaeda wannabe suffer in a Saudi jail is perfectly consistent with that, hardly hypocricy.
[quote]Ethan writes “This however, is true. He has not submitted to any exam, and he had previously said that he was not tortured. His lawyer, on the other hand, has said that he was, and only his lawyer has seen the ‘evidence’ of torture.”
Malik: I suppose if you were being tortured by the Saudis, in a Saudi prison, you would tell everyone about it so you could get worse?[/quote]
He’s not in Saudi Arabia. He’s right here in Alexandria, Virginia where torture is nonexistent and prisoners routinely file nuisance lawsuits of no merit against the government. So what’s stopping him from presenting his proof?
[quote]Malik: The allegations of torture have been around for sometime, not just after his transfer to the US. But you guys make me laugh, Saudi Arabia is the devil incarnate for you guys, the source of all evil, now both of you deny that the Saudis would torture him? LOL![/quote]
You’re lying again, Malik. Neither of us have denied that the Saudis have tortured him, as you falsely claim. We don’t know if he’s been tortured or not. What we are insisting on is that proof of torture be confirmed with a physical examination by a doctor. You seem to skip past that step to automatically accepting his claim, evidently due to your sympathy for him. Perhaps you should spend less time laughing out loud and more time reading the posts so you can form a rational response.
[quote]Malik: If he was an American Christian I am sure you would have no doubt the Saudis tortured him, but because he is accused of being an extremist you guys have a real problem knowing who to hate worse! [/quote]
I’ll admit I’ll have to flip a coin on this one.
[quote]Malik: Seems in this case the Saudis suddenly become believable to you. [/quote]
The Saudis are never believable to me. Hence the request for confirmation from a medical professional in the US. What’s your objection to that?
[quote]Malik: Pay no attention to the fact that US forces have been shipping suspects to places like Saudi, Egypt and Jordan for sometime because they know that the authorities in these places can apply “methods” they cannot.[/quote]
Yes, how unfortunate that the members of Al Qaeda are interrupted in their plans to butcher more Americans by incarceration in dungeons in Arab countries where their keepers speak the same language of violence they speak. I imagine it must be very unpleasant for them in there, very unpleasant indeed. They probably expected to be delivering all the violence, not receiving it, huh?
[quote]Malik: Glad to see that suddenly Saudi Arabia, formerly the nation of the devil guilty of all evil, has now been redeemed. Guess Steve wont have to level Saudi cities from his armchair now. [/quote]
Saudi Arabia is hardly redeemed but it’s entertaining to see them fighting with their own followers. It’s kind of like watching Hitler attack his own brownshirts, suddenly perceiving them as dangerous. With luck, perhaps the Saudis will level their own cities in an orgy of religious hate, Wahhabi against Saudi. What a fitting end that would be.
Steve
Re(4): The power of many
Ethan writes “I warn Steve softly because I see how he reacts to harsh words. It’s called diplomacy.
Case in point: This blog entry. ”
You diplomacy is a failure, Steve still continues to preach his hatred here.
Re(4): The power of many
Malik,
Poltical correctness is the child of the political Left in the US, not the Right. And it has existed long before 9-11.
-Aliandra
Re(10): The power of many
Steve writes “Now, Ethan, I wouldn’t approve of Americans torturing an American in America. That would be bad. However, I do take a certain satisfaction in a wannabe assassin and eager promoter of terrorist attacks, a traitor to his own America, being locked up by the very nation which inspired and encouraged him in such goals and beating the hell out of him. ”
There you go again Steve the “American”. What is American about torturing a man who has been convicted of nothing? You claim to be American yet the term “innocent until proven guilty” seems to be one you have not heard of.
Steve writes “Watching an Al Qaeda wannabe suffer in a Saudi jail is perfectly consistent with that, hardly hypocricy. ”
Again, he has been convicted of nothing. Steve “the American” ever heard of due process, innocent until proven guilty? For all of your bravado about being American you completely miss the things that make being American great!
Steve writes “He’s not in Saudi Arabia. He’s right here in Alexandria, Virginia where torture is nonexistent and prisoners routinely file nuisance lawsuits of no merit against the government. So what’s stopping him from presenting his proof?”
Oh, now he is a common criminal? See, here I thought you were saying he is some international Islamic terrorist. Besides, you are not so clueless to know that the allegations of torture have to do with the 2 1/2 years he spent locked up in Saudi right?
Steve writes “You’re lying again, Malik. Neither of us have denied that the Saudis have tortured him, as you falsely claim. We don’t know if he’s been tortured or not. What we are insisting on is that proof of torture be confirmed with a physical examination by a doctor. You seem to skip past that step to automatically accepting his claim, evidently due to your sympathy for him. Perhaps you should spend less time laughing out loud and more time reading the posts so you can form a rational response. ”
Steve, you are the liar and the radical here, not me. You have painted Saudi Arabia out to be some hell hole, now you want us to see evidence of torture? Why dont you give the suspect the same level of innocence before guilt as you are giving the Saudis? Interesting you want to give due process to the Saudis but not to the man in custody. Double standards=hypocrisy!
Steve writes “The Saudis are never believable to me. Hence the request for confirmation from a medical professional in the US. What’s your objection to that? ”
I have no issue with it at all. My question is why are you now so demanding of fair treatment for the Saudis when you are instantly ready, at a moments notice, to believe anything about them in other circumstances? Why do you not demand the same standards of evidence for the person being charged? So he is guilty before he has had his day in court but you now want to defend the Saudis from a torture allegation! This gets weirder by the moment. Steve the American demanding American rights for Saudis, and wanting to deny them for a person in American custody! Make up your mind, either everyone is innocent before the evidence is presented or they are not. If so admit this person charged is innocent until proven otherwise.
Steve writes “Yes, how unfortunate that the members of Al Qaeda are interrupted in their plans to butcher more Americans by incarceration in dungeons in Arab countries where their keepers speak the same language of violence they speak. I imagine it must be very unpleasant for them in there, very unpleasant indeed. They probably expected to be delivering all the violence, not receiving it, huh? ”
Again, Steve the American does not believe in American values and tradition. One such person, transfered to Syria upon his arrival to the US was tortured by the Syrians after the US passed him to their authorities, turns out he had done nothing. For a person who likes America so much Steve you sure do show a lot of contempt for American law and values.
Steve writes “Saudi Arabia is hardly redeemed but it’s entertaining to see them fighting with their own followers. It’s kind of like watching Hitler attack his own brownshirts, suddenly perceiving them as dangerous. With luck, perhaps the Saudis will level their own cities in an orgy of religious hate, Wahhabi against Saudi. What a fitting end that would be. ”
Another diatribe from Steve the “Arm Chair Warrior”, ready to advocate death and destruction, never mind the revocation of the American Constitution, at a moments notice.
As for me, I believe in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. The man is innocent until he gets his day in court.
Re(5): The power of many
Posted “Malik,
Poltical correctness is the child of the political Left in the US, not the Right. And it has existed long before 9-11.
-Aliandra ”
Ah, so because the left did it makes it okay for the right? I despise it when done on either side. Your arguement that because “they started it” makes it ok is a shallow one.
Re(6): The power of many
Malik,
[quote]Ah, so because the left did it makes it okay for the right? I despise it when done on either side. Your arguement that because “they started it” makes it ok is a shallow one. [/quote]
i never said that, Mailk. It was you who condemned the Right for doing it without a word of condemnation for the Left.
-Aliandra
Re(7): The power of many
Posted “i never said that, Mailk. It was you who condemned the Right for doing it without a word of condemnation for the Left.
-Aliandra ”
What was the idea behind posting that the left did it first? It is nonsense when either side does it, and it is now hypocritical that the right now fails to point it out when they do it.
The power of many
Salaam Mahmood
What happened in Beirut is a wonderful example of ‘coalitive’ action.
Can it be emulated in Bahrain? I doubt it, regardless of whether there are Hizbullah flags in sight or not.
IMHO, part of the problem can be found in our political tradition of trade-offs. A single royal makrama, or a series of these makramas, could change the political equation dramatically. Spreading happiness and complacency among the political elite groups and factions by dispensing royal makrama here and there has for generations been a failsafe instrument of power.
Just consider the fate of the law on personal status – a legal instrument that should have reduced some of the formal aspects of inequality of women . It has (hitherto) been traded off for 2002 the clerical leaders’ silence on the constitutional front.
Let us hope that wisdom prevails in Bahrain and that peaceful demonstrations will bring help improve the situation and put the country back on the ‘democratic’ track.
Let also pray that moving things in Bahrain does not require something as dramatic as what in Beirut on February 14.
abdulhadi
The power of many
Point taken Mahmood.
Yes…Power to the Lebanese for toppling a cabinet which they saw as corrupt and useless.
What’s next ? Will they now have their utopia or will what follows be worse than what they have already suffered.
Bahrain, on the other hand, is a different game altogether.
It is more manageable, I presume…but then I could be wrong altogether.
I always tell myself that there is light at the end of the abyss… that it gets darkest before dawn. I don’t want to sound too defeatist. I have been dubbed that over the last couple of days, more than I have ever been called in my entire life…but today…I think it will take only a miracle to cheer me up.
Inspirational!
It was an inspirational sight to see tens of thousands of Lebanese demonstrating peacefully calling for their rights. I truly sense an overall climate of change across the whole region. I saw a first step here in Egypt with Mubarak starting multi-candidate elections for the president’s position.
The train has left the station and there’s no going back.
The power of many
It is a great move. Not surprising that there were not any Hizb’Allah flags because Syria has been accused of supporting them. It is time for the people of the area to assert their indepence and forge ahead with their own brand of democracy. No need for a “western brand” democracy, Arabs must create their own unique style in keeping with their cultural and religious values. This is good news, onwards now to Egypt, Jordan and many other places in need of such action.
The power of many
hold your horses people.
lebanon had to go through MANY iterations of national identity before people felt some kind of national unity. there was a civil war, and numerous assasinations, and different versions of ‘markamat malakiya’ .. perhaps makramat jamhouriya, or makramat souriya. the christains, the sunni, the isralies, the druze, the shia, hizbollah, the palestinians .. each one of them is guilty in a different way for paying off, or accepting payment in one way shape or form ..
so, the best thing we can do in bahrain is learn from history. and then apply the lessons we have learned. we should also try and learn from iraq. and, hopefully, with a bit of vision, good leadership and guts, we can avoid taking the long, bloody path (lebanon, iran) and take a wiser, more visionary path.
history may not be kind to those who try and change it, but it also brutal with those who refuse to learn from it. i hope that the bahraini ruling family, the bahraini government, the bahraini pariament, and the bahraini browhshirts think VERY VERY carefully before they draw their strategies for the way forward ..
and, as far as personal effect law, it will be useless until the women fight for it .. they need to strengthen their voices and be heard and prioritize what they want to believe in and fight for. you cannot emancipate those who do not want to be free .. and it will take time for people to learn how to use their voices …
JJ
The power of many
Would you participate in a peaceful demonstration that was ambiguous on your first assertion?
(1) we are patriotic and love this country and its leadership
Would you participate in a rally with members of bahrainonline.org who carry strong anti-government sentiments, assuming you could trust them to not cause trouble?
-Fred C
Re: The power of many
Yes I would.
The issue is much larger than what bahrainonline.org, wefaq, the government or whatever else represents. To me the issue is freedom of expression, and without this there would be no transparency and hence no democracy.
So to reitterate my answer to your question: it would be a resounding YES. I would join in the peaceful demonstration.
It is high time that we test this young democracy of ours, and we (the country and its people) should come out of this problem stronger.
There is also nothing ambiguous about my assertion that we do love this country and its leadership. I see no conflict there.
Re(1): The power of many
[quote]Dubya could well ascend from a good president to a great president. [/quote]
If only by comparison to the hatred spewing Liberal (capital L) establishment. His foregn policy screams Teddy Roosevelt – but his domestic policies are strictly Gilded Age.
Re(11): The power of many
[quote]As for me, I believe in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. The man is innocent until he gets his day in court. [/quote]
But you’ll believe every allegation of torture when leveled against Saudi? Wha?
Jeez Malik. I don’t even know if this guy is guilty or not. I just know that he’s under suspicion of plotting an assassination, and that they found extremist literature in his house.
And.. His lawyer is trying to spin it to the media.
As they say in the sciences, if you can’t get peer-reviewed, call a press conference. If you’re a crappy lawyer and it’s patently obvious that your client is a guilty devil, then sell it to the cheap seats. It sounds as fishy as the diet pill commericals. A truly innocent person would not go crying to the court of public opinion. The facts would speak for themselves.
Re(4): The power of many
Steve, I think that point has been made about 8 trillion times in the past three years, and the “anti-warriors” continue to ignore it.
Another year or so and you’ll be able to add Afghanistan and Iraq to that list, by the way.
I wonder what Malik will say then? You think he’ll concede he was wrong all along?
— James C.
The power of many
Here is why what I think is strange. We all know that US is stepping up pressure on Syria and Iran, they are considered as `outpost of tyranny` by Ms. Rice. We also know that US is not pleased because Russia just sold to Syria some heavy duty anti missile weapons.
As I write previously, we then had Hariri assassinated, which is now somehow pointed to Syria (it`s not clear to me who did what from just reading the newspaper). Following that, we had the bombing in Israel.
So ok, from some of you, it appears that Lebanese has a long grudge toward Syria. But has anyone thought that other parties might benefit from this? Why the finger is pointed to Syria only?
I am not going to even begin with the word terror/sponsor of terror. I think everyone use it to their liking 😉
wisnu
The power of many
Hmm…
A question to everyone here. Do we really know that Syrians did the assasination of Hariri? Why are Lebanese so bent on saying that Syrians did this, resulting in the collapse of their own government? It appears that there is something that is more than is being shown on media actually. Is it just me or is there a pressure somehow on Syria, as they are also being accused for the bombing in Israel?
2 events, both blamed on Syria, all of a sudden. I am not a conspiracy theorist, but I found it a bit strange. For the first time after a long period, Israel actually blamed Syria, not Hamas…..What is going on here…
Perhaps someone who lives in these areas have better understanding to explain what is really going on actually.
wisnu
Re: The power of many
Posted “So ok, from some of you, it appears that Lebanese has a long grudge toward Syria. But has anyone thought that other parties might benefit from this? Why the finger is pointed to Syria only? ”
I think Syria had the most to loose from this killing. I do not see how they could have thought that in todays enviroment this would go without very negative consequences. I hope that someday someone gets to the bottom of it. I do not believe that the Syrians did it. I would do what police do, who had the most to gain out of the killing and the expected international reaction. Syria had motive to kill the man, but I think they knew such an action would have the very consequences we have recently seen.
Either way, Lebanon is better off without the occupation.
Re: The power of many
You find it a bit strange that a terror-sponsoring regime is blamed for terror attacks?
Re: The power of many
US officialdom shut down shops in Bahrain? Sounds like pure nonsense to me. If the Bahraini government is heavy-handed in its dealings with its people, you might consider placing the blame on them rather than the US. The United States does not run Bahrain. Bahrain runs Bahrain. Take responsibility for your own country.
Likewise, your bogus charges of “systematic violations of human rights, including death of detainees under torture” by the US are nonsense, the product of propaganda.
You have cut and pasted a quote from Albright about the sanctions on Iraq being worth the price to further a line of Saddam’s propaganda that the US starved Iraqi children. It has since been revealed that all the money in the Oil For Food program was stolen by Saddam and corrupt UN officials. Saddam built some 70 palaces and indulged in all sorts of expensive nonsense at his people’s expense, yet you place the blame on America falsely. Just the bundles of Saddam’s cash we found hidden in dog kennels in Iraq would have well provided for the needs of millions of his people, but he wanted it all for himself and to hell with his people.
Steve
The power of many
wisny writes “A question to everyone here. Do we really know that Syrians did the assasination of Hariri? Why are Lebanese so bent on saying that Syrians did this, resulting in the collapse of their own government? It appears that there is something that is more than is being shown on media actually. Is it just me or is there a pressure somehow on Syria, as they are also being accused for the bombing in Israel?”
Many Lebanese wanted the Syrians out of their country all along but did not dare publicly say so. Now that Syria is under the spotlight, the Lebanese feel safe to talk about it knowing Syria can’t touch them. Also, the Lebanese Sunnis used to support Syria’s presence before but they don’t anymore (Hariri himself – who is Sunni – worked well with the Syrians several years back, but turned on them recently because they overdid it). I think that the issue for the Lebanese is much more than “who killed Hariri”). The incident was the catalyst, but their issue is really with the Syrian presence.
Re(7): The power of many
Malik, you said, and I quote, “there is no real freedom of speech.”
Yes, there is.
No one is preventing you from saying whatever you want. No one is preventing Michael Moore from saying whatever he wants. No one is preventing Dan Rather from saying whatever he wants.
Now you’ve morphed your thesis into “There can be no real debate in the US because people who try to discuss anything controversial are label and hounded.”
First of all, generalize much? There is NO real debate? Anywhere? ANYONE even TRYING to discuss ANYTHING controversial is “labelled” and “hounded?” Again I call bullshit.
I am curious: do you include the dreaded “neocons” as a “labelled” and “hounded” group? Or is it only when YOU are “labelled” that you object? I’ve been hounded by the left like a broke-dick-dog for 2 years because I dared — DARED! — support the overthrow of a genocidal tyrant.
If this is really your complaint, then the Left is at least at much at fault as the Right. But I really don’t think that’s the point you’re trying to make.
— James C.
Re(3): The power of many
“Steve thinks being a true American means advocating torture, the carpet bombing and removal of whole nation states.”
Malik, weren’t you the one complaining about how people who try to discuss “controversial” topics — like, say, torture — are immediately “labeled” and “hounded”?
You know, sorta how you’re labeling and hounding Steve?
Amazing that you can be this blind. It’s truely staggering. You haven’t the foggiest what a partisan zealot you are, do you?
Re: The power of many
Hassan writes “Many Lebanese wanted the Syrians out of their country all along but did not dare publicly say so. Now that Syria is under the spotlight, the Lebanese feel safe to talk about it knowing Syria can’t touch them. Also, the Lebanese Sunnis used to support Syria’s presence before but they don’t anymore (Hariri himself – who is Sunni – worked well with the Syrians several years back, but turned on them recently because they overdid it). I think that the issue for the Lebanese is much more than “who killed Hariri”). The incident was the catalyst, but their issue is really with the Syrian presence. ”
Indeed, hopefully the spotlight will be placed on all occupations in the area. I would hope with a Syrian withdrawl from Lebanon Israel might take up talks again concerning their withdrawl from Syrian land. All of the occupations need to end. Syrian participation in Lebanon has been spotty at best, they originally entered to try and protect the Christians, ended up switching sides. With a friend like that, who needs enemies?
Re(3): The power of many
“So you too support the idea that the people have the right to choose who leads them as long as they conform to yours, or someone elses ideas? Is this democracy? Not in any school I ever attended.”
A democratically elected government which immediately dismantles the apparatus of democracy is not a democratic government, and thus has no place as a legitimate representative of its people.
This is Civics 101, Malik. Pretty simple stuff.
See: Germany, 3rd Reich if you need an example.
— James C.
The power of many
I’ve got to say, as an American liberal, I’m disgusted by the reaction of “my tribe” to events in Lebanon. The left in America has become so blinded by Bush-hatred that it can’t spare an ounce of celebration or even of optimism for a people overthrowing its tyrants and liberating itself.
I don’t think we’re going to regain office for a looooong time.
Re: The power of many
In the spirit of bipartisanship, with malice toward none and charity toward all, I generously extend my complete and absolute agreement from me, an American conservative, with you as an American liberal. The Left is clearly on the wrong side of history. If the dominoes keep toppling toward democracy in the Middle East, Dubya could well ascend from a good president to a great president.
Steve
Re(3): The power of many
[quote]Malik: All democracies have hard beginings, no one can say the Muslim and Arab world will be any different, but their populations MUST be free to choose the types of governments they want without interference. This is the only way a home grown version will take root and flower.[/quote]
What about Japan and Germany? We didn’t give them any choice of the type of government they wanted after WWII. They had one choice: Democracy. They went on to blossom as democracies and economic powers.
Steve
Re(5): The power of many
Well slap me down, and call me Europe.
Personally, I like to think of Diplomacy as an ongoing process.
The power of many
Malik,
I agree with you. It would callous and stupid for Syrians to try to assassinate Hariri, they know they are under spotlight….or maybe they are…hmm..what do I know?
wisnu
Re: The power of many
Hot Tip about Baby Assad’s recent activities
Re(2): The power of many
Great.. I was looking for something to cheer me up and now I see that my silly comments here have been hijacked by Steve and Malik.
Mahmood, remember Jareer and Al Farazdak… two Arab writers who had those huge debates and lived all their lives ridiculing each other?
Maybe… Steve and Malik could entertain us on their own website where they can exchange insults all day long at their own convenience in their own place…and then perhaps, if we miss them we can visit them there.
I suggest a proper literary site with links to the famous “naqaedh” of Jareer and his friend Farazdak. Now I am no computer whiz … but I think the two could collaborate and set it up.
The power of many
I got this sms joke on my phone a 101 times from my Lebanese friends. I can’t help but share it here:
“Mr Omar Karami needs a new job. Any openings for a Syrian coffee boy? Also work needed for Lahoud in any toilet cleaning job. Send CV to bachar@welost.com”
And no thanks Mahmood. Spare me. I already have 100 gmails I can’t possibily get rid of!
Re: The power of many
hehehe nice one!
Re(1): The power of many
Why would it be an impossible scenario for Syria to do something stupid due to a misjudgement of the situation?
Steve
Re(8): The power of many
[quote]Written “On the contrary, the US government is oftentimes placed in the awkward position of holding damning evidence against perpetrators which has been gathered by intelligence agencies but which they can not make public because it compromises their methods of collection or because no law covers the particular treasonous act committed or because the disadvantages to national security outweight the advantages of prosecuting. ”
Malik: Yes, or they can just use this claim to justify holding people they cannot charge. [/quote]
And when has the US government done this? For somebody who is against the government making false charges you seem to make false charges against the government quite easily.
[quote]Steve writes “There is no proof that this would be presidential assassin was tortured by the Saudis, not that there would be anything wrong with that.”
Malik: Why doesnt it suprise me that you support torture, let alone torture for someone convicted of no crime? [/quote]
I wouldn’t want the US to take up torture but if a traitor is tortured by the very people who recruited him to do treason, I do enjoy a certain schadenfreude.
[quote]Steve writes “I also note that you take the word of this wannabe Al Qaeda terror planner at face value while attributing dark motives to the US based on your biased speculation. That indicates where exactly your sympathies lie. ”
Malik: No, I am an American, as such I believe in an individual’s innocence before being found guilty! Calling yourself “Steve the American” you should be aware of our freedoms here, but considering you condone torture, these freedoms do not seem to mean anything to you! [/quote]
Malik, may I remind you that Abu Ali is indeed being tried fairly here in Virginia where his rights are carefully preserved and the presumption of innocence is guaranteed. I have no objection to that. That’s the way it should be done in America.
Of course, that’s not the way it’s done in Saudi Arabia, the country for which you feel so much affection, is it? Isn’t it odd that you blame me and America for possible torture perpetrated by Saudi Arabia?
Abu Ali is a graduate of the Islamic Saudi Academy (ISA) of Alexandria, Virginia, the valedictorian of the Class of 1999. The ISA is better known as “Terror High,” teaching a toxic concoction of Wahhabi hatred to its students, funded and guided by the Saudi Embassy. It has produced three other terrorists. According to the US government, the fondest dream of this valedictorian from Terror High, in his words, was to become a terror planner, like his heroes Mohammed Atta and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
What irony that the very country which inspired Abu Ali’s terrorist ambitions should imprison him and possibly mistreat him severely for those very ambitions. It really demonstrates the danger of dealing with such a duplicitous barbarian nation which promotes religious terror and denies individual rights within its domain. I find a sweet justice in the Saudis treacherous betrayal of their enthusiastic recruit. Perhaps it will give other prospective terrorists second thoughts about trusting the Saudis.
Now it would be great if Saudi Arabia gave up torture as a consequence of establishing individual rights, but then that would turn the whole Wahhabi establishment on its head, wouldn’t it? If individuals have rights that must be honored then that means their rights are a higher priority than Allah’s will as interpreted by the Wahhabi clerics from the Koran. The entire idea of basing a country on laws legislated by a parliament elected by the people whose rights are paramount is anathema to the Wahhabis, blasphemy.
Your complaint about torture lies with them, the Wahhabis and the Saudis who rule Saudi Arabia, not me. I have no influence in Saudi Arabia. I am merely laughing at the Wahhabi barbarians torturing each other. I am also quite amused to see someone like Abu Ali, who wanted to take the Wahhabi jihad to America to destroy it, now complain that America did not guarantee his individual rights, the rights that he sought to take away from everyone should he succeed in establishing a second Caliphate.
I don’t know if Abu Ali was tortured or not, but if he was it couldn’t have happenned to a more deserving guy.
Steve
Re(3): The power of many
[quote]Malik: Those people are the exact opposite of Steve. Steve thinks being a true American means advocating torture, the carpet bombing and removal of whole nation states. People like this need to be condemned on both sides. The problem is people like Steve are not called on it by people like yourself when they advocate torture of suspects. But here you have no issue at having a go at those on the other end. Why is that? Why is Steves promotion of toture “walking on a thin line” when you are more than willing to slam his polar opposites? [/quote]
Malik, as usual you build straw man arguments. My supposed advocacy of terror is one of them that you have concocted. While I thoroughly enjoy the idea of the Saudis imprisoning and torturing the people they recruit to perpetrate terror against America, I don’t support torture in the US. I would thoroughly enjoy it if Bin Laden and Zawahiri got in a hammer fight and smashed each other’s skulls in. That doesn’t mean that I endorse hammer killings in America.
And please, I have never advocated carpet bombing of anything. It’s an obsolete tactic that hasn’t been done in half a century. It’s like accusing me of wanting America to pour caldrons of boiling oil on a target.
I do agree that Saudi Arabia should be destroyed. That government should cease to exist just as Nazi Germany needed to cease to exist to make way for a civilized, peaceful government. But don’t you believe the same thing? Aren’t you opposed to the government of Saudi Arabia, of the rule of Prince Bandar and his legion of cousin princes? Don’t you really want the same thing as I do: an end to the Saudi tyranny?
[quote]Malik: That is what it has come to in this society. Calling Bush a liar and irresponsible makes you an anti-American, but calling for torture of suspects and destruction of nation states is “walking a thin line”. Have some balance here, get some moral backbone. Treat Steve with his the same deserved contempt you would treat any other extremist. The fact that you find his extremism somehow less offensive shows your true colours.[/quote]
Malik, you need to stop treating the truth with contempt and begin arguing honestly. You’re not convincing anybody by distorting other people’s positions and then beating up that bogus fabricated position. Close down your straw man production line.
Steve
Re(8): The power of many
[quote]Ethan: He has not submitted to any exam, and he had previously said that he was not tortured. His lawyer, on the other hand, has said that he was, and only his lawyer has seen the ‘evidence’ of torture.[/quote]
Ethan,
According to this article, four doctors examined him before he left Saudi Arabia and found no evidence of torture: an American, a Brit, and two Saudis.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17151
However, I consider such evidence as tainted, having happenned in Saudi Arabia, which has a history of coercing people to toe the government line.
Abu Ali should prove his claim by submitting to a physical exam here in America by multiple disinterested physicians. If torture is proven, then it confirms his accusations and demonstrates the bad character of Saudi Arabia. If no signs of torture exist, it is weak evidence that Abu Ali is lying in accordance with the Al Qaeda resistance protocol.
Looks like a heads I win, tails you lose proposition to me.
Steve
Re(3): The power of many
Princess, my dear,
Let me assure you that you are not the only one who is tired of it. I certainly would like to read some other voices here.
Heck, I’d be willing to go offline for a week or two to let everything settle down and start over again. I liked it better before when I was hearing different opinions. I understand that I have contributed to the degeneration of the dialogue here.
So what can I do to make way for you, Princess, and everyone else to speak?
Steve