There is no reason whatsoever to desecrate Holy text, be that the Quran, the Bible or even to some the Kama Sutra. But people being what they are, will always take advantage of the status of something that is so prized, or use their little knowledge of a culture to desecrate something that is held quite highly to gain an advantage.
Some would of course argue that it’s just a book, and the words it contains shall remain immortal as they are the words of God, and He is more than capable of looking after them.
Fair enough. To me however, I still remember my semi-literate paternal grandmother, rest her soul, who has memorised the Quran, and eventually because of that she learnt to read quite well. Her devotion to the Quran was magical to see. She for instance would not allow my father to throw away an Arabic paper before she goes through it with a fine tooth comb, cutting out Quranic passages and saving them. Only then would the paper be thrown out, or used for any other purpose.
When she died, there were quite a lot of cutouts in her cupboard! We carted them all to the local mosque. I have no idea what happened to them after that.
Yet, some people have no respect for others’ culture as they would not hesitate to use a Quran to smuggle drugs into Bahrain.
This probably is the ultimate desecration. Using a Muslim’s inherent respect for the Holy Book to try to smuggle drugs. Hoping of course that the customs officer will not bother checking it thoroughly.
I hope they get or have gotten the full measure of the law for their efforts.
Comments
The Desecration of the Quran
Thats awful how they use the Quran to smuggle drugs! I never knew it was used that way.
Your paternal grandmother sounds so lovely, God rest her.
Re: The Desecration of the Quran
[quote]Malik, I’ve read lots of your posts here. You don’t want people to “understand” you. You want them to agree with you. [/quote]
Not at all, sorry you feel that way. I want people to understand me and I look for dialogue that is respectful in nature. Life would be rather boring if everyone agreed. I am going to paraphrase a quote from The Qur’an. It is said that God could have created everyone the same, but he didn’t, he created us different that we might know each other.
Mahmood help!!!
Mahmood is there no way to block people off or something if they go on about the same old debates? Malik and co. seem to monopolise every single post with the same old debate. This blog is great, but things like that really mess it up!
The Desecration of the Quran
It was somewhat funny to see Saudi Arabia complaining about the destruction of a Quran when these same people will destroy a Bible if you try to bring one into their country. Pot, meet kettle. I’m sure the Saudi government has destroyed 10,000 times as many Bibles as Americans have destroyed Qurans.
Re: Mahmood help!!!
No I won’t do that. That would be too heavy handed. Although I recognise what you say and it is valid. What I will do is propose an “ignore” filter which is set per user so that any user can put an “ignore” flag on any member and their posts would dissapear. That would take it into the individual domain rather than me heavy handedly banning people.
For the time being however, I invite any “prolonged” debate to happen in the forums if all of you don’t mind. I have proposed that before and it somewhat worked. But because of the nature of topics, they are bound to spill into the main board or go back and forth.
The best thing to do is to beseach the users’ sense of right.
If all fails, I’m afraid the heavy handedness would have to be employed.
Re(1): Mahmood help!!!
That makes sense, hopefully it’ll work. I still love the site, I’m just glad exams are over and I no longer feel guilty for spending time browsing it 😀
Re(2): Mahmood help!!!
The tapestry of life and all that 🙂
Hope you did well i your exams.
Re(1): Mahmood help!!!
[quote]No I won’t do that. That would be too heavy handed. Although I recognise what you say and it is valid. What I will do is propose an “ignore” filter which is set per user so that any user can put an “ignore” flag on any member and their posts would dissapear. That would take it into the individual domain rather than me heavy handedly banning people.
For the time being however, I invite any “prolonged” debate to happen in the forums if all of you don’t mind. I have proposed that before and it somewhat worked. But because of the nature of topics, they are bound to spill into the main board or go back and forth.
The best thing to do is to beseach the users’ sense of right.
If all fails, I’m afraid the heavy handedness would have to be employed. [/quote]
Mahmood,
Thank you for your response. An ‘ignore” button would be grand I think. I am know my views are not popular here and I know I am the target of a lot of the comments here and I am sorry about that. If people dont want to read, they shouldn’t have to. Sorry for any trouble on your part.
Allah Ma3ak.
Re(3): Mahmood help!!!
*crosses fingers* hopefully they went well thanks, I have the whole summer to forget about them so all’s well 🙂
Re(2): Mahmood help!!!
Malik, it’s no trouble to me at all actually. I recognise that discussions and arguments invariably morph into something that probably was not intended. I also recognise that people who are passionate about a subject will stick to it until such time as they themselves either convert, or be converted. It is rare indeed to find someone who would be happy with the middle ground, or just let an argument go in recognition that this person will never affect the other parties. It’s part of life.
As long as the various responses are considerate and courteous, I don’t have a problem with them.
This is probably the time to tell everyone that there are three ways to display comments at the moment, one of which is seldom used I think, and that is the “threaded” view, which can allow you to “zero in” on what you want. This is done by selecting “Threaded” from the Comment Rendering Options below every topic. You can also set this as the default way of displaying your comments if you have registered. Here’s how it looks with 17 comments entered under this topic:
As you can see, comments are displayed in a manner that allows you to select whichever YOU wish to read, just click on the comment to expand, and it will display like this:
Xaraya is VERY flexible, it just takes some time to explore and customise to your own liking.
Re(3): Mahmood help!!!
Thanks for the tip Mahmood. It is hard to keep up sometimes. For as much as I post, I get lost in the 3-4 or more people posting at me. I know I post a lot, but I am one person trying to defend a certain point of view, with a lot more than that posting back at me. I used to try to respond to every post directed at me, I dont do this anymore.
I really like the Xaraya and I have downloaded a manual I found online concerning its use and am considering using it myself. I had considered FrontPage because of its ease, and it now is compatable with blogging as well. I dont know. I have zero experince coding or doing anything of the like, so whatever format I pick it must be an easy one.
The Desecration of the Quran
Yes. Which would be worse…one person desecrating the Koran or outlawing it entirely? Which is worse, an isolated incident involving the Koran, or countries restricting the building of churches? Which is worse, an isolated incident or the murder of someone who converted to Christianity?
I think its ridiculous to have such double standards.
thinker
Re(3): Mahmood help!!!
I very much like the presentation of the threaded view. That would be neat in the forums, where it is hard to follow a conversation because of the linear format. It’s like reading a program with Go To statements in it. You have to waste space reprinting quotes to frame your response. A threaded view would eliminate that, make the dialogue more to the point, allow parallel conversations.
My Two Cents,
Steve
The Desecration of the Quran
I don’t really want to get into an argument over this, but I’d like to put in a few kopecks of thought.
Desecration is in the eye of the beholder, and such things have happened throughout time by every Abrahamic religion. But we must keep in mind the scope of desecration!
If I were to call up CAIR and get 50,000 copies of their free Koran and burn them in a large bonfire, is that desecration? Is it a greater desecration to take a 12th century copy of the Koran and burn it?
I would think the latter is a greater desecration! A mass market paperback is nothing, while a handwritten copy is far more valuable, not just in a historic sense, but also because someone poured their love of God into the book – far more ‘holy’ that act is than simply pressing a button on a bookbinder.
Remember, if you place the [b]book[/b] itself as something ultimately important, it’s a slippery slope toward idolatry. The book is no talisman – to think of it that way is form before function.
Now, regarding using the Koran as a drug smuggling tool – it’s fairly ingenious! Though even in a mass market paperback version, doing such, i think, would be a terrible desecration – not of the book, but of the message.
And thus – my two cents have been paid.
Re: The Desecration of the Quran
Bleh – the above comment is mine; I forgot to hit the log in button 😛
Re: The Desecration of the Quran
Although i dont agree with banning books etc for any religion, i have been brought up to read the bible, my mum has had many copied over the year although she has been muslim for nearly 30 years, ( my maternal grandparents are jewish and roman catholic). In saudi arabia one of the main reasons they ban the bible is because it is not in the original form that it was revealed, over the years it has been changed so many times, so therefore in a way it has been pretty much changed from how it was revealed ie no longer gods original words.
Saudi isnt the only country that bans books, in Uk and USa you cant even get a copy of the protocols of zion or somehting i cant remember the exact name im sorry. The jewish religion makes it pretty difficult to get copies of the torah espeicially a transalated version, i should no i have asked my grandad tonnes of times how to get copies and have visited synagoues with him also, and yet i still dont have one !
I beleive that it is wrong to ban the practice of religions in countries, i cannot think of a reason as to why they will do this.
Re(1): The Desecration of the Quran
I am not aware of ANY books that are banned by the US governement. A book might be barred from a School System or Library but that is not a “US Government Ban”.
The Desecration of the Quran
Great post Mahmood. As a Muslim I feel duty bound to respect the holy books of other faiths. I would treat The Bible in the same manner that I treat The Qur’an. I do, as a matter of fact, because I have a copy of it at home. I think the problem is people think that if they do not agree with the texts or the religious beliefs of others they do not need to show respect for the texts. I think that is wrong and nothing justifies mistreatment of these books. I know history, on both sides, hasnt always seen this happen, but as humans it is the best that we can aspire to.
I enjoyed reading about your grandmother. My mother in law learned to read pretty much based on The Qur’an as well, and that is pretty much all she reads even to this day. I thought the part about saving Qur’anic verses was interesting. My wife has a similiar habit. She will throw nothing out with verses, but she will also pick up money she finds laying around. Her explaination is “it has God’s name on it.” Here in the US all currency has the words “Ine God We Trust” on it. That shows how some people can be so different. My wife picks it up based on the English word for God being on it, others roll it and snort coke.
During the Vietnam war corpses of dead US soldiers were stuffed with drugs to be smuggled into the US. Drugs are bad enough, to smuggle them in such manners is sick.
The Desecration of the Quran
I’d be more concerned about what drugs and drug dealers do to people than what they do to books, even holy ones. It’s a global trade with no scruples of any sort and leaves millions of wrecked lives in its wake.
The Desecration of the Quran
Understanding is everything. The more you read the more you understand.
SUPPORT CAIR’S ‘EXPLORE THE QURAN’ CAMPAIGN – TOP
[url]http://www.cair-net.org/explorethequran/[/url]
CAIR recently announced a new campaign intended to promote understanding of the Quran by distributing complimentary copies to any interested member of the American public. This campaign, titled “Explore the Quran,” serves as a response to those who would defame and desecrate Islam’s revealed text without full knowledge of its teachings.
To request your free copy of the Holy Quran, go to:
[url]https://www.cair-net.org/explorethequran/request.asp[/url]
To donate to the “Explore the Quran” campaign, go to:
[url]https://www.cair-net.org/explorethequran/donation.asp[/url]
For more information about the project, or to request a copy of the Quran by phone, please call 1-800-78-ISLAM (1-800-784-7526).
The Desecration of the Quran
Posts like yours above have much the same effect on me as Jehova’s Witnesses at the front door. I slam the door, hoping someone’s foot* is still in it.
*other than my own
Re: The Desecration of the Quran
[quote]Posts like yours above have much the same effect on me as Jehova’s Witnesses at the front door. I slam the door, hoping someone’s foot* is still in it.
*other than my own [/quote]
I prefer trying to understand people rather than shutting doors, and especially hoping to hurt or injure people. We have too much of that already. It is important to keep the doors and dialogue open.
Re: The Desecration of the Quran
With the Columbian-US drug trade, we’ve had incidents of finding drugs smuggled in dead bodies as well as living dogs. The profits are so unbelievable that the sellers stop at nothing. Also, as in Afghanistan, growing coca plants feeds the families of poor farmers.
The problem begins and ends with the demand, without which there would be no supply.
Aliandra
The Desecration of the Quran
Malik, I’ve read lots of your posts here. You don’t want people to “understand” you. You want them to agree with you.
The Desecration of the Quran
[/quote]Yet, some people have no respect for others’ culture as they would not hesitate to use a Quran to smuggle drugs into Bahrain. [quote]
People who smuggle drugs have ZERO repsect for any culture. I have seen Bibles used, religious statues and even people dressed like clergy with bags of “smack” in various parts of the body.
[/quote]This probably is the ultimate desecration. Using a Muslim’s inherent respect for the Holy Book to try to smuggle drugs. Hoping of course that the customs officer will not bother checking it thoroughly. [quote]
Was it a MUSLIM who was trying to smuggle the drugs? Was it Bahrainis or other expats? Does anyone know? Where is the outrage for this? This doesn’t appear to be a BS Newsweek type report and I have to wonder why I am not seeing the same fervor about this as we all saw last week. Have cooler heads come to grips with the situation or is there outrage and we are not seeing it?
[/quote]I hope they get or have gotten the full measure of the law for their efforts. [quote]
There has to be a demand for someone to smuggle beyond what one would use for personal use. You will never stop the use of drugs. Never. There will always be a base % of a given population who gravitate towards mind numbing substances and abuse. Of course all sociities must work to curb this problem and at the very least keep it in check. What will happen to them in Bahrain? Jail.. On the other side of the Pier a sword would be used. Better or worse?
Re(2): The Desecration of the Quran
Was this really posted by Malik?
Steve
Re(3): The Desecration of the Quran
[quote]Was this really posted by Malik?
Steve [/quote]
Indeed. I can certainly be very critical of my own community, whilst holding others to account for their actions. It is important to be able to look within as well as without.
The Desecration of the Quran
[size=18]”10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?”[/size]
This passage from Malachi has been on my mind various times in watching the postings over the last year or so.
I think that we are making progress. The other thing that has been on my mind, is the somewhat trite observation that we who seek God are like blind men around an elephant, each describing what he “sees”. And each one adamant that his view is the correct one. We’re all “right” and we’re all wrong”.
My biggest concern is with those who seek proscriptively to make everyone else conform to his or her views, and this is not at all exclusive to the Eastern part of the world. There is a large element in the US who would push Evangellical views on everyone and make that form of religion the “official” one.
We would do much better to discuss Scuba, fishing or whatever a lot more, because by doing so, we find that we have more in common than in opposition, as citizens of the world, and children of one father–whomever we believe that father to be.
Since I first found this site, I have believed that was the intention of its founder.
Re(1): The Desecration of the Quran
[quote]In saudi arabia one of the main reasons they ban the bible is because it is not in the original form that it was revealed, over the years it has been changed so many times, so therefore in a way it has been pretty much changed from how it was revealed ie no longer gods original words.[/quote]
This is an extremely erroneous interpretation.
The Bible does nto claim to be God’s word, and in fact it is demonstrably NOT God’s word. It’s a book of the stories and parables of prophets and the people of God. There is and was no ‘Bible’ handed down by God. Period.
The Bible is not ‘revealed’. It only Chronicles the actions of those whom the laws were ‘revealed’ to. Few things make me more annoyed than when Muslims (especially those in the west who should know better) claim that the Bible has been ‘corrupted’. It has not. The earliest copies of the New Testament that we have are closer to the time of Christ than the Koran is. The Torah itself predates Mohammed by a very long time, and itself is still in Hebrew.
When a Muslim claims that the Bible or Torah was ‘corrupted’ they are showing their own ignorance, as well as showing intolerance toward the ‘people of the book’. The Koran was not compiled by Mohammed, it was compiled long after his death and the compilation was based on the opinion of the caliph at that time. Does that mean that the Koran is corrupt? The history is no different than any other holy book.
Re: The Desecration of the Quran
Indeed, but the path of reconciliation is sometimes crossed faster by exploring and then reconciling our differences.
Re(4): The Desecration of the Quran
You mean Malik “Jihad” Abdullah as long as you hold the US to account for the ills or the world FIRST, you then might be critical of your own community.
Re(3): The Desecration of the Quran
Malik,
[quote] I can tell you that every practicing Christian I know is certain that the entire Bible is the word of God. They are sure it is, and will even provide proof for their claim. It is the direct word of God that cannot be changed in any way. [/quote]
That depends on which Christians you are hanging out with. There are about 200 Christian denominations in the US and not all of them take the entire Bible as the word of God. Some denominations take it as part myth, part fact. Catholics, for example, accept evolution, not Adam and Eve. The Mormons have their own bible, in addition to the usual one. New Thought churches take the bible metaphorically.
As for your quotes, look carefully at which Christian denominations put them out. Christianity is a very diverse belief system and one denomination does not speak for all.
Aliandra
Re(1): The Desecration of the Quran
[quote]Indeed, but the path of reconciliation is sometimes crossed faster by exploring and then reconciling our differences. [/quote]
Yes, as long as reconciliation is the goal of everyone involved. Sadly, some seem more interested in proving their “eternal truth” to the world, whether Muslim, Christian or secular, than accepting the legitimacy and validity of people different from themselves.
I liked the quote from The Bible earlier. Like most other things, it is shared by similar sentiments from other religious texts. Look for what we have in common, lets not dwell on those things in which we differ.
“We believe in the Revelation that has come down to us and in that which came down to you. Our God and your God is one; and it is unto Him that we (all) surrender ourselves.”
The Holy Qur’an, 29:46
Re(3): The Desecration of the Quran
I was raised a Christian and my entire family remains Christian. We were always taught that the Bible contained in part the “Word of God” — such as in the Ten Commandments — but is a collection of religious history and parables that provide us guidance to live by. We never treated the Bible in the manner that the average Muslim treats Quran — such as placing it on the highest shelf in a room or not touching it when menstruating.
Ultimately, as a Muslim I feel that the way we use the wisdom God has provided in Quran for us is far more important than the way we handle the printed copies of His word.
Salaam Alaikum,
PM
PS: Malik, I noticed your comments in the forum about why you don’t start your own blog. Believe me, with the time you spend here you could easily keep up several blogs. It is basically a do-it-yourself situation and you should be able to knock it out quickly. Besides, that would give you your own forum to dominate, control and manage in the way you see fit without usurping that roll on another’s blog.
The Desecration of the Quran
By the way, Ethan and Malik, coincidentally, what I’m in the middle of reading is a book by Bart D. Ehrman, called The Orthodox Corruption of the Scripture–subtitled “The effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament”. Bart Ehrman is chair of the Department of Religious studies at University of North Carolina atChapel Hill.
It’s a fascinating read but probably would arouse the ire of many “orthodox” believers. Nevertheless, there is a great deal of evidence coming from many soures that the Bible has always a work in progress, and many small changes in textual rendering slanted it towards the paradgym that was prevalent at different times in history.
Re: The Desecration of the Quran
[quote]Just to add fuel to the fire .. why is that the Moslems get so worked up about the Qoran in Gitmo .. but we dont jump up and down when we realize that the Qoran is being used in a much more destructive manner by smuggling drugs in it? [/quote]
That was my point exactly. If the real issue is The Qur’an, then Muslims should have been just as worked up over the drug smuggling issue. They were not, so it would seem to me that the protests in Afghanistan, Pakistan and elsewhere were less to do with the treatment of The Qur’an, than it was about other issues.
[quote]Is it because we are comfortable pointing the finger at ‘the westerner
Re: The Desecration of the Quran
[quote]By the way, Ethan and Malik, coincidentally, what I’m in the middle of reading is a book by Bart D. Ehrman, called The Orthodox Corruption of the Scripture–subtitled “The effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament”. Bart Ehrman is chair of the Department of Religious studies at University of North Carolina atChapel Hill.
It’s a fascinating read but probably would arouse the ire of many “orthodox” believers. Nevertheless, there is a great deal of evidence coming from many soures that the Bible has always a work in progress, and many small changes in textual rendering slanted it towards the paradgym that was prevalent at different times in history.
# [/quote]
Indeed. I will have to read that book when I get a chance. The Bible has always been a work in progress. Much of it was written years after Jesus(AS) died and by people who had never met him. What we know as the Bible now differs greatly than what early Christians knew, or even Christians 500 years ago. There is not even agreement as to what books belong in it. Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox all have different numbers of books.
Re(5): The Desecration of the Quran
[quote]You mean Malik “Jihad” Abdullah as long as you hold the US to account for the ills or the world FIRST, you then might be critical of your own community.[/quote]
I have never claimed the US was responsible for the ills fo the world. Everyone needs to be held accountable for what they do. The first and formost responsibility for what happens in the Muslim world is Muslims themselves. Ignorance and apathy. Those are the issues. As an American, I feel it is important to address our issues as well.
But, I believe all of this is secondary anyways to your attacks on me. Stick to the issues at hand please.
Re(6): The Desecration of the Quran
[quote]I have never claimed the US was responsible for the ills fo the world.[/quote]
Just 99.9% of them, right?
Re(7): The Desecration of the Quran
[quote]Quote :
I have never claimed the US was responsible for the ills fo the world.
Just 99.9% of them, right? [/quote]
Just the places we support tyrants and dictators. You figure out the percentage.
Re(6): The Desecration of the Quran
Mr. M.Jihad Abdullah
The issue Malik is you are always BLAMING the US for the worlds ills. Now today you are backing off of that a bit. About time too. So suck it up, be a man and take your medicine for once in your life.
Re(7): The Desecration of the Quran
[quote]Mr. M.Jihad Abdullah
The issue Malik is you are always BLAMING the US for the worlds ills. Now today you are backing off of that a bit. About time too. So suck it up, be a man and take your medicine for once in your life. [/quote]
Again, get over the personality thing. I have not backed off one bit. As long as I am being slammed left and right with “Islam is an evil religion” and other nonsense I will always spend most of my time defending my religion. I have not changed one bit. There is blame enough to go around. If Muslims decided to change their fate, to clean up their countries, there isnt a thing the US could do about. The US supports Hosni Mubarak with billions of dollars of aid, but if and when the Egyptian people decide they have had enough, and do so in large numbers, there is nothing the US can do to keep him in power. God willing they will do just that.
No one can rely on the US. I remember when the first George Bush told the people of Iraq to rise up after the first gulf war. He told them to rise up and America would stand with them. Sections of the Iraqi people did rise up and they were slaughtered, tens of thousands of them. Bush didnt keep his word to help and the people died. The people must take their own futures into their hands. Dont believe what the US offers or tells you. Dont believe that the UN or Europe will help you. No one will help you but yourself. All I want to see is a better and brighter world, a free world, for the people in these areas. From my government all I want to see is a foreign policy where we advocate with words and deeds for the world, what we advocate for ourselves here.
There are many ways to “make a stand.” The owner of this blog is one great example of how, even in doing the things you enjoy in life, one can make a difference. If everyone did something, no matter how small, the world would be a better place.
The Desecration of the Quran
Actually, according to my studies, all of it was written after Jesus’ death, the first being the Book of Mark, and all of the Gospels based on tradition and earlier sources not in existence. Certainly things had to have been changed, as Christianity evolved as an institution, and to my way of thinking, attained a character unlike what Jesus might have intended,or even would recognize.
Re: The Desecration of the Quran
[quote]Jasra: And, irrespective of what my own personal thoughts about Islam being a convenient new enemy to the West from a political point of view, ….[/quote]
Jasra, my dear, speaking for myself, I don’t need any enemies. I don’t need anybody jumping out of a crowd on the subway and blowing us all up on the way to work or running up the aisle of my home-bound jetliner at Christmas when it takes off from Reagan airport in DC in order to plunge it into the White House. I would be very happy not to even have such concerns pop in my head. All I want to do is make more money and chase chicks.
If I may be so bold as to speak for America, we need no enemies. We need no crazy-ass religious cults trying to screw everything up because the entire world doesn’t match their particular divine template. Terror is bad for business and business is what America is about. If I may summarize the American perspective: Less terror, more business, more money for everybody, more happy people everywhere.
I would be very happy if Muslims would give up their insane rage and settle down to be ordinary folks in my world just like everyone else. I would prefer that Middle Eastern people would be just another interesting flavor of people like Chinese or Mexicans or Africans or even the damned French. I don’t have to worry about any of them building a big freaking bomb to kill Americans at the shopping mall so they can dance in the street like crazed demons celebrating another bloodletting. It would be fabulous if Muslims gave up their murderous belligerence. That would be one less thing to worry about.
I would be a happy man if the jihad ended right now. It would be fine with me if we didn’t have troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. Those countries will be nothing but trouble even in the best scenarios and sucking bucks that could be better used in America. Neither is worth the bones of a single Marine. I have the terrible premonition in the back of my head that when all is said and done and we offer the Iraqis their democracy and individual liberties on a silver platter, they will screw it all up and revert to savagery.
I don’t really care if the whole Middle East becomes one giant Islamic theocracy, as long as they keep it to themselves. If they want to live like knuckleheads, let ’em. They’ll figure out it sucks in a generation or two.
America can do quite nicely without enemies. We’d rather have business partners and new markets than enemies.
Steve
Re(1): The Desecration of the Quran
[quote]If I may be so bold as to speak for America, we need no enemies. We need no crazy-ass religious cults trying to screw everything up because the entire world doesn’t match their particular divine template. Terror is bad for business and business is what America is about. If I may summarize the American perspective: Less terror, more business, more money for everybody, more happy people everywhere. [/quote]
I think we will always disagree on this Steve. From a Muslim point of view, and a person who has known true Islamic extremists, I will again state that the majority of the problem is not a wish amoungst Islamists to create a world wide caliphate, it is a clear issue with US policies. But, of course, the extremists do mix the political with the religious. But I have seldom heard of anyone dying to create a world caliphate, but plenty about people dying to strike a blow against American hedgimony. Now I will be completely honest when I say that I think these people would be much better off concentrating on their own local leaders, rather than the US itself. I believe that they have valid issues with US policy, but I do not think they hold much chance of changing US policy. The lack of debate on the subject after 9/11 proved that.
[quote]I would be very happy if Muslims would give up their insane rage and settle down to be ordinary folks in my world just like everyone else.[/quote]
First off, you are going on about all “Muslims” again. I do not think all Muslims are mad, or that their views are insane. I do think some of the rage is overblown and misplaced. However, I also think some of the anger is justified.
[quote] I would prefer that Middle Eastern people would be just another interesting flavor of people like Chinese or Mexicans or Africans or even the damned French. I don’t have to worry about any of them building a big freaking bomb to kill Americans at the shopping mall so they can dance in the street like crazed demons celebrating another bloodletting. It would be fabulous if Muslims gave up their murderous belligerence. That would be one less thing to worry about. [/quote]
Again, Muslims are all “murderous” and “belligerant”? As to being like the Africans, do you want to see 1 million plus dead in Lebanon? It is happening in Uganda. How about 4 million plus dead and counting in Iran? It is happening in Congo. Your talk about blood letting almost reminds me of the old blood libel against Jews. Muslims are not inherently or genentically predisposed to violence. Or is it okay if millions are dying as long as some Americans are not caught up in it?
[quote]I would be a happy man if the jihad ended right now. It would be fine with me if we didn’t have troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. Those countries will be nothing but trouble even in the best scenarios and sucking bucks that could be better used in America. Neither is worth the bones of a single Marine. I have the terrible premonition in the back of my head that when all is said and done and we offer the Iraqis their democracy and individual liberties on a silver platter, they will screw it all up and revert to savagery. [/quote]
They will revert to savagery why Steve? Because Islam demands it? Because Arabs cannot control themselves? Both of these are old and tired orientalist arugments that hold no water. And which jihad, exactly, are you talking about? Chechnya? Kashnir? Algeria? Iraq? Saudi Arabia? Uzbekistan? All of these issues are based on conflicts that would very likely exist if Islam wasnt even in the picture. Look at the conflicts raging around the world where Islam isnt even really to be seen. Columbia, Peru, Nepal, Uganda, Congo, Northern Ireland, ect. There are really political issues fueling the conflict in all of those places, just like in the other places.
[quote]I don’t really care if the whole Middle East becomes one giant Islamic theocracy, as long as they keep it to themselves. If they want to live like knuckleheads, let ’em. They’ll figure out it sucks in a generation or two. [/quote]
The people do not want theocracy Steve. They want democracy and freedom. It is the minorities that want something different. It is also these same minority that are always so willing to use violence to achieve their goals. Whether this minoritiy are al Queda, the supporters of King Abd’Allah in Jordan or Hosni Mubarak in Egypt. The minority are always those willing to shed the blood of the majority and to use violence and terror to accomplish their goals. This is how the extremists want to take power, and it is how the governments stay in power. Meanwhile the vast majority sits in the middle and suffers.
steve
alas my sweet, i am not taking the bait. but nice to chat with you … 😉
jasra jedi
The Desecration of the Quran
Jud ..
What we need is a Luther in Islam. And fast.
JJ
The Desecration of the Quran
I think that the middle ground is necessary. And actually I feel as passionate about my place in it, as those on each side.
The commentabove about the Jehova’s Witnesses amuses me. We have a property that we bought back in the ’70’s that’s down a dirt road 22 miles South of a wide spot in Highway 93 in Arizona. It was 70 thousand dollars from a telephone and our nearest neighbor was a mile away. Our first visitors were JW’s!
I will not argue religion. There’s no profit in it. I explain to Missionaries that I have a solid grounding in a faith and if they press me to take their books, I respond by saying that I will if they will take mine. So far nobody has taken me up on that.
I have several copies of the Bible in a number of translations, but the one I use belonged to my mother, and it contains 20 years of annotations and glosses about passages she learned something about. That’s coupled with 20 years or so of my own notes. It’s about worn out, yet I use it, because I can’t imagine going through it and transcribing all that into a new one. My dad’s Bible was eaten by a dog years ago and damaged so badly that I had to burn it. But the value of that book to me is in the time and thought I and others have invested in it. Otherwise, I would treat it and the other Bibles I have with only the same reverence and care that I do the other books in my library.
From one point of view all words that we use are God’s word–some are silver and gold, others wood and iron, for that reason we should choose the words we use wisely.
Just because I don’t consider the Book itself as intrinsically holy, doesn’t mean that I have the right to disrespect someone else’s views. It really comes down to that little saying that Christians attribute to Jesus, but seems to occur in every culture in the world in one form or another,
…” all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.” (Mat 7).
I have to agree that in my view the henous crime is profiting from others’ weaknesses.
-Jud_
Re: The Desecration of the Quran
[quote]Jud ..
What we need is a Luther in Islam. And fast.
JJ [/quote]
Yeah, I agree. The problem is, for many Luther is bin Laden, abdul Wahab, and the Salafee. I do not think, we as Muslims, can look to Christianity. We must forge our own path. It would seem that even those respected by us in the middle of the road, people like Tariq Ramadan, are either too radical for some, or too loose for others.
Islam is not as united as Christianity was at the time of Luther. I think we need a lot of little Luthers and we need to accept that the message might never get to the whole of the Islamic world. But we have to start somewhere.
Re(4): Mahmood help!!!
The forum interestingly is just a template thrown at the normal comment system in Xaraya! The templates were designed specifically to mimic other forum software like ezBoard and whatever else is there now, in that it displays comments in a linear chronological format. I doubt that I can change that representation to allow for threaded views. sorry.
The Desecration of the Quran
Just to add fuel to the fire .. why is that the Moslems get so worked up about the Qoran in Gitmo .. but we dont jump up and down when we realize that the Qoran is being used in a much more destructive manner by smuggling drugs in it?
Is it because we are comfortable pointing the finger at ‘the westerner
Re: The Desecration of the Quran
BANG! Nail on the head, madam! That’s exactly why I put up this article and no one – other than you – has questioned, or has seen the meaning and contradiction between the two events.
I was losing hope that I might be the only one feeling this way.
Re(2): The Desecration of the Quran
[quote]The Bible does nto claim to be God’s word, and in fact it is demonstrably NOT God’s word. It’s a book of the stories and parables of prophets and the people of God. There is and was no ‘Bible’ handed down by God. Period.
The Bible is not ‘revealed’.[/quote]
Ethan, were you raised Christian? I was, Sunday school and services every week. I can tell you that every practicing Christian I know is certain that the entire Bible is the word of God. They are sure it is, and will even provide proof for their claim. They view the origins of The Bible in much the same way that Muslims view The Qur’an. It is the direct word of God that cannot be changed in any way. They might or might not be right, but it is what they think that is the real question here. Catholics view The Bible as the word of God as part of the basics of their beliefs. It would seem that a rather large chunk of the Christian world does not agree with your statement. Lets look at a few instances of this.
[b]”Is the Bible truly God’s Word?[/b]
The term “revelation” simply means that God communicated to mankind what He is like and how we can have a right relationship with Him. These are things that we could not have known had not God divinely revealed them to us in the Bible.
The question we must ask ourselves is how can we know that the Bible is the Word of God and not just a good book? What is unique about the Bible that sets it apart from all other religious books ever written? Is there any evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word?
There can be no doubt about the fact that the Bible does claim to be the very Word of God. This is clearly seen in verses like 2 Timothy 3:15-17, which say, “. . .from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.�
One of the first internal evidences that the Bible is truly God’s Word is seen in its unity. Even though it is really sixty-six individual books, written on three continents, in three different languages, over a period of approximately 1500 years, by more that 40 authors (who came from many walks of life), the Bible remains one unified book from beginning to end without contradiction. This unity is unique from all other books and is evidence of the divine origin of the words as God moved men in such a way that they recorded His very words.
Besides the internal evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word there is also external evidences that indicate the Bible is truly the Word of God. One of those evidences is the historicity of the Bible.”
[url]http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-God-Word.html[/url]
“……the Bible, is in all its parts the very Word God, completely true in what it says regarding matters of fact and completely authoritative in its commands.”
[url]http://christianbeliefs.org/books/chrfaith/ChrFaith-Machen-04.html[/url]
“Some, I suppose, have a Bible as a sort of lucky charm. Others have a copy to maintain a form of religious acknowledgment. And many millions have a copy because they believe the Bible is God’s Word.
The fact that Jesus accepted the Bible as God’s Word is important to note. In his day, only the Old Testament section of the Bible had been written. It was then known as the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms, or simply as the Law. Referring to these writings Jesus said, “All things which are written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”2″
[url]http://www.actsweb.org/living/bible1.htm[/url]
[b]”The Bible Is The Word Of God[/b]
Our Bible is composed of 66 books, by about 40 different writers of various backgrounds, living during a period of about 1,600 years — yet they present one message. Such a miracle can only be explained by there being one divine Author, who was in control of all these human writers. ”
[url]http://www.believers.org/believe/bel191.htm+[/url]
“We are truly impressed and grateful for the overwhelming response the HolyBible.com site has received from all of you. Let us always keep in mind that reading God’s Word from an actual bible in hand is still the best way to study His precious message.”
[url]http://www.holybible.com/resources/KJV_DFND/[/url]
On the Catholic view:
“Among the Christians
The gospel contains no express declaration about the origin and value of the Scriptures, but in it we see that Jesus Christ [url]<http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm> [/url]used them in conformity with the general belief, i.e. as the Word of God [url]<http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm>. [/url]The most decisive texts in this respect are found in the Fourth Gospel, v, 39; x, 35. The words scripture, Word of God [url]<http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm>, [/url]Spirit of God [url]<http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm>[/url] , God [url]<http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm>, [/url]in the sayings and writings of the Apostles are used indifferently (Rom.,iv, 3; ix, 17). St. Paul alone appeals expressly more than eighty times to those Divine oracles of which Israel [url]<http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08193a.htm>[/url] was made the guardian (cf. Rom., iii, 2). This persuasion of the early Christians [url]<http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm>[/url] was not merely the effect of a Jewish tradition blindly accepted and never understood. St. Peter and St. Paul give the reason why it was accepted: it is that all Scripture is inspired of God [url]<http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm>[/url] (theopneustos) (II Tim., ii, 16; cf. II Pet., i, 20 21). It would be superfluous to spend any time in proving that Tradition has faithfully kept the Apostolic belief in the inspiratiion of Scripture. Moreover, this demonstaration forms the subject-matter of a great number of works (see especially Chr. pesch, “De inspiratione Sacrae Scripturae”, 1906, p. 40-379). It is enough for us to add that on several occasions the Church has defined the inspiration of the canonical books as an article of faith (see Denzinger, Enchiridion, 10th ed., n. 1787, 1809). Every Christian [url]<http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm> [/url]sect still deserving that name believes in the inspiration of the Scriptures, although several have more or less altered the idea of inspiration. ”
“This text was destined by God [url]<http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm>, [/url]Who inspired it, for the universal Church, in order that it might be authentically recognized as His written word”
[url]
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08045a.htm%5B/url%5D
Re(1): The Desecration of the Quran
If, if, if this were only the majority view there would be no issue to argue here and we’d all be talking about shawarmas and scuba diving in the Gulf and ancient sites to visit in the Middle East. That would be my preference.
Steve
Re(1): The Desecration of the Quran
[quote]BANG! Nail on the head, madam! That’s exactly why I put up this article and no one – other than you – has questioned, or has seen the meaning and contradiction between the two events.
I was losing hope that I might be the only one feeling this way.[/quote]
I think many Muslims feel this way Mahmood, the question is why dont they say something about it? There is a culture of silence in much of the Muslim world about double standards with issues like this. Why is it okay for Muslims to use and abuse The Qur’an, without a word, but provokes riots when Americans do it?
The culture of silence that pervades that Islamic community is one that must be broken if things are going to change. By all means, protest when Americans flush a Qur’an, but also protest when drugs are smuggled in them, protest when people like Bin Laden twist its verses to justify their slaughter. If you truly care about The Qur’an and its means, all of the above would be equally offensive.
I think there is a fear that to speak out one will be branded as a “tool of the west” or a “sellout”. I think this is far from the case. Those who fail to speak out are the tools. I think it is the most conservative elements of the Muslim community that promote such an idea. They are the group with the most to loose if the Muslim community ever awakes from its slumber and decides to do something about what these people are claiming to do in their name.
The answer for the problem in Islam todays lays wholely within the Islamic community itself. At this moment it doesnt look good. But, Alahamdulillah, I have faith people will wake up and retake their faith from these types of people.
Re(1): The Desecration of the Quran
Ah Afganistan. If you turn your back and ignore drug dealing your as guilty as the dealer. Guess that makes Bush a dealer.
billT
The Desecration of the Quran
geeting back to this topic..
Just a couple of days ago, [url=http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=8643532]a Shi’ite Muslims mosque was attacked[/url]. At least 20 people were killed and hundreds of Qurans were distoyed. The Quran was desecrated by who called themselves “Muslims” as [url=http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=8650656]Police see al Qaeda link in Karachi mosque bombing[/url].
Go figure!
The Desecration of the Quran
Here’s the bottom line on alleged Koran desecration at Gitmo:
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050531-121655-7932r.htm
Steve
I understand that the Qur’an was written in 7th Century Arabic. Generally in a language (e.g., Indoeuropean languages) meanings of expressions seem to change significantly over a couple of hundred years, let alone within 14 Centuries.
Is this true with the Arabic language of the Qur’an that was not allowed to change? Say for well educated native Arab speakers, is it easy enough to understand precisely?
Thanks and best regards,
Vic