Wafa Sultan

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Thanks Doug, I’ve been looking for this video for a while now. Nothing makes me happier than seeing that brainless demagogue Ibrahim Al-Khouli being put in his place!

However, much more important than that is that the calls for the reform of Islam has been increasing substantially over the last few decades and it should be done. The version of Islam being bandied about today depends on nothing but “showing off” how one person is “more Muslim” than the other, rather than treating a great religion as an individually spiritual experience; a connection between one and his or her god, rather than a tool to spread abhorrent ideologies represented by severing heads and blowing up everything that does not fall within the envelope of the intellect of a “true believer.”

Islam should not be an exclusive religion, certainly not one exclusively interpreted by a single uber-group and whoever does not agree with them is relegated to the spheres of kufr and apostasy.

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98 Comments
  • Loki
    1 August 2006

    I can’t stand this woman. She is full of BS just like many of her counterparts on the other extreme. Neither groups should be given airtime. This clip was a brainless rant. Don’t we have enough of those on are TV screens.

  • Loki
    1 August 2006

    *our

  • F
    1 August 2006

    Its interesting to listen to her viewpoint.

    Its not really a fair comparison – best of others with the worst of ours.
    Every people, in the name of their religion, have done good and bad things.

    Some aspects are twisted – as everyone knows, everyone can ‘spin’ things in any way or form, to suit their own interests.

    Islamic reformation in our society is certainly needed.

    ‘Ijtihad’ needs to be brought back into discussion.

    We don’t need to question God’s laws. 5 pillars are there for every
    Muslim.

    Man’s or Soceity’s laws needs to be discussed. A council needs to
    be formed – made up of eminant scholars, academics, lawmakers
    and leading members, in good standing, of our soiety. With public
    support, they need to put in place a clearer Sharia law.

    In Bahrain, the ‘mixed masala’ of Sharia/English/French/Egyptian’
    law is a mess. That needs to seriously cleansed inside and out.

  • Johnster
    1 August 2006

    Well Loki, to go by your argument we should have an equal number of each side (0-0 or 10000-1000 or 100000-100000) but so far this is the first cogent argument I have heard from her side. I didn’t agree with everything she had to say but its good to hear the views of another side. The poor old duffer at the end was totally unable to engage in the debate at all!

  • mahmood
    1 August 2006

    Here’s the transcript folks, care of MEMRI:

    Wafa Sultan: “The clash we are witnessing around the world is not a clash of religions, or a clash of civilizations. It is a clash between two opposites, between two eras. It is a clash between a mentality that belongs to the Middle Ages and another mentality that belongs to the 21st century. It is a clash between civilization and backwardness, between the civilized and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality. It is a clash between freedom and oppression, between democracy and dictatorship. It is a clash between human rights, on the one hand, and the violation of these rights, on other hand. It is a clash between those who treat women like beasts, and those who treat them like human beings. What we see today is not a clash of civilizations. Civilizations do not clash, but compete.”

    […]

    Host: “I understand from your words that what is happening today is a clash between the culture of the West, and the backwardness and ignorance of the Muslims?”

    Wafa Sultan: “Yes, that is what I mean.”

    […]

    Host: “Who came up with the concept of a clash of civilizations? Was it not Samuel Huntington? It was not bin Laden. I would like to discuss this issue, if you don’t mind…”

    Wafa Sultan: “The Muslims are the ones who began using this expression. The Muslims are the ones who began the clash of civilizations. The Prophet of Islam said: ‘I was ordered to fight the people until they believe in Allah and His Messenger.’ When the Muslims divided the people into Muslims and non-Muslims, and called to fight the others until they believe in what they themselves believe, they started this clash, and began this war. In order to stop this war, they must reexamine their Islamic books and curricula, which are full of calls for takfir and fighting the infidels.

    “My colleague has said that he never offends other people’s beliefs. What civilization on the face of this earth allows him to call other people by names that they did not choose for themselves? Once, he calls them Ahl Al-Dhimma; another time he calls them the ‘People of the Book’; and yet another time he compares them to apes and pigs, or he calls the Christians ‘those who incur Allah’s wrath.’ Who told you that they are ‘People of the Book?’ They are not the People of the Book, they are people of many books. All the useful scientific books that you have today are theirs, the fruit of their free and creative thinking. What gives you the right to call them ‘those who incur Allah’s wrath,’ or ‘those who have gone astray,’ and then come here and say that your religion commands you to refrain from offending the beliefs of others?”

    […]

    “I am not a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew. I am a secular human being. I do not believe in the supernatural, but I respect others’ right to believe in it.”

    Dr. Ibrahim Al-Khouli: “Are you a heretic?”

    Wafa Sultan: “You can say whatever you like. I am a secular human being who does not believe in the supernatural…”

    Dr. Ibrahim Al-Khouli: “If you are a heretic, there is no point in rebuking you, since you have blasphemed against Islam, the Prophet, and the Koran…”

    Wafa Sultan: “These are personal matters that do not concern you.”

    […]

    “Brother, you can believe in stones, as long as you don’t throw them at me. You are free to worship whoever you want, but other people’s beliefs are not your concern, whether they believe that the Messiah is God, son of Mary, or that Satan is God, son of Mary. Let people have their beliefs.”

    […]

    “The Jews have come from the tragedy [of the Holocaust], and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror; with their work, not with their crying and yelling. Humanity owes most of the discoveries and science of the 19th and 20th centuries to Jewish scientists. Fifteen million people, scattered throughout the world, united and won their rights through work and knowledge. We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people. The Muslims turned three Buddha statues into rubble. We have not seen a single Buddhist burn down a mosque, kill a Muslim, or burn down an embassy. Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people, and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them.”

  • Anonymous
    1 August 2006

    Reform to some people means, to totally change the core meanings of a religion, example is the homosexuals that demand the pop to make this behaviour religiously acceptable. Similarly, a lot of us want to tailor the religion to his/her own behavior. if you do not want to follow the religion, don’t, but do not expect the whole universe will change for your sack.

    I say, I am totally agaist the type who lives in the 21 century, but thinks with a 5 century brain. Similary, I am agaist those who overshoot and try to liquify the religion in order to give it a different shape.

    By the way, the story of the Zionist being victims of discrimination and terrism, and they are so peaceful, is an old and does not fool us anymore.

    read the following

    http://desip.igc.org/InTheBeginning.html

    http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=1989

  • jaddwilliam
    1 August 2006

    I agree with Loki. ´The clip is tripartite BS.
    WS put ALL muslims in ONE ‘bad guy’ basket and AND all other Jews and goyims in ONE ‘good guy’ basket”. ( I, for one, happen to know a few good Muslims and a few bad Jews). Too many generalisations. These generalisations are as brainless as those of her adversary, IaK.

    I have nothing to say on giving her or him ‘airtime’. This braindamaged pair fit well in a world ruled by the likes of Bush.
    AbuRasool

  • Polemicist
    1 August 2006

    A better transcript can be found courtesy of Aqoul:
    http://www.aqoul.com/archives/2006/03/aljazeera_trans.php

    Personally I can’t understand why we should care what she is saying. There are plenty of other people who have said these things with much more eloquence and a far deeper understanding. The only reason why Wafa Sultan has been trumped up above these other people in the West is because she has a Muslim sounding name.

    It is exactly the same as how many Muslims consider Chomsky to be a great hero simply because he is a Jew willing to criticize Israel.

  • Loki
    1 August 2006

    Johnster – maybe. unfortunately I think this only serves to polarize people more. Arabic TV unfortunately love airing live rows and the presenters tend to encourage mindless rants.

  • Anonymous
    1 August 2006

    Polemicist…its sheer stupidity to compare [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_2005_Global_Intellectuals_Poll]Chomsky[/url], one of the greatest intellectuals with the intellectually redundant Wafa Sultan….and the dejected likes of irshad manji and hirsi..self-haters who banter to the West…they make me cringe…

    this video is so last season… i cease to see the point of giving it more attention that it deserves

  • Ibn
    1 August 2006

    I saw the interview Mahmood – I was really really impressed. Although I would disagree with Wafa Sultan on a couple of minor points, I liked it when she handed the Islamist man his own ass. Heh. Ive said it before, and ill say it again – religion holds man back. Those thugs need to be confronted.

    -Ibn

  • Polemicist
    1 August 2006

    @Anonymous – I agree it is stupidity to compare someone of the likes of Chomsky, a genius, with Wafa Sultan.

    I wasn’t comparing the two individuals. I was comparing the reasons why some people support them.

  • mahmood
    1 August 2006

    But isn’t it thought provoking to have the same show on the same television channel hosting virtually identical extremists from both sides on several occasions?

    That dickhead Ibrahim Khouri is a permanent fixture for instance, what is Al-Jazeera trying to achieve here other than inflame emotions? Wouldn’t it have been better to have a couple of moderates, or at least just one extremist and a moderate to debate and that other dickhead Qassim actually being an impartial moderator rather than extremism supporter?

    Or is Al-Jazeera only about ratings?

    And ratings really don’t matter to any Arab television station because they are all (virtually) owned by spoilt royal brats who compete with each other on the amount of loss “their” station makes?

    I agree with Ibn though, these fanatics (on both sides) should be made to eat humble pie in public so that they can be shown in all their glory to their very own supporters, maybe then some brain matter will start to function.

  • a Duoist
    1 August 2006

    What is most valuable here in this al-Jazeera interview is not the content or positions of what is being argued, but that the debate is taking place in an open forum.

    Regardless of the bias of al-Jazeera or the NY Times or The Daily Star in presenting the news and ideas, the marketplace for competing ideas thrives on the trust of our fellow human beings, which is itself the manifestation of a mature and wholesome psychology. A repressed media (Iran, North Korea, Cuba, etc.) is grounded upon a distrust of human nature that is made by an immature psychology.

    Whether one agrees or disagrees with the psychologist in the al-Jazeera tape is not as important as realizing that her underlying message is a critical analysis that the present agony of Islam ripping itself apart is due to the legacy of distrusting our fellow human beings to think for themselves. Christianity ripped itself apart for five hundred years in the same blood-drenched agony.

    In the professions of psychology and psychiatry, trust in others is the measure of good mental health. It is vital to remember that human freedom is completely grounded upon trust of others.

    BTW – among a free people in a free land, distrustful concepts such as ‘heresy’ and ‘apostacy’ and ‘infidel’ are not representatives of a mature, well-adjusted, good mental health.

    ‘Be free,’ Mahmood.

  • miss_independent
    1 August 2006

    Seems to me like another Ann Coulter only from the Middle East this time.

    She does make good points. In a way, I see what she is trying to get at. However, the generalizations she makes about Muslims and Jews, immediately diminishes any credibility she has gained in her argument.

    If the West felt bad about stereotyping what Muslims are today, well with the wonderful opportunity of live TV, here is someone who is talking on behalf of “every” Muslim generally saying that: yes, Muslims refuse life in the 21st century…and they will bomb you because of their religious beliefs.

    Which makes me wonder why I get mad at someone like Ann Coulter who on Live TV says things like, “Islam, is the religion of “peace” while rolling her eyes and laughing at what she thinks is a sarcastic funny remark.

    There are many ill informed people in this world, it sad that in most cases, lies are the messages they choose to believe.

  • MooDy
    1 August 2006

    She has few good points i may say !

  • jasra jedi
    1 August 2006

    MooDy –

    I would agree with that myself ..

  • Desert Island Boy
    1 August 2006

    I for one don’t see the significance in this debate beyond that someone actually put their foot down and decided to call out the worst of the worst. Sweeping issues under the rug has been all too common.

    The real lesson of this is that someone stood up to the status quo and was unequivocal in challenging it. Dogmatism needs to be challenged. I would prefer it be challenged with properly constructed argument, but I can’t accuse Sultan of pushing half-baked cowpie.

    Personally, I never bought into the hypothesis behind The Clash of Civilizations, thereby making this debate nearly pointless.

  • Ibn
    1 August 2006

    Well said Desert Island Boy – (Desert Island = Bahrain? 🙂 ) which is exactly why I cannot give my 100% support for Wafa Sultan.

    Her ends are commendable: Secularism, end of religious dogma, addressing Arab social problems, etc.
    However I take some issue with the arguments she is using to get to those ends stated above. She seems well intentioned. But some of her arguments have points that I would disagree on, although I share her desire to reach those ends pointed out above.

    -Ibn

  • Condoleeza BITCH
    2 August 2006

    I think this lady is nothing but a bitch! No offense though… while she is somehow right about 1% of what she said.. the problem is not in Islam rather than on Muslims by ID cards.. like Mahmoud he is adopting her views….

  • Ethan
    2 August 2006

    Like her or not, Wafa Sultan has at least held up a mirror to the extremist Islamists. She may herself be of a secular bent, but in truth it is the secular that must prevail for religions to survive.

    Consider: Judaism, Christianity, Islam. Only one is true – and two false. Were one to gain fundamentalist ascension, the other two would suffer: Dhimmitude, the Auto de Fey, among others.

    Only through a secular government can the religious be placed into the realm of ‘personal belief’. Think what you will about your own religion’s law; but to try and enforce the dictates of your religion upon someone not of your religion is a violation of their Human Rights, regardless of what your religion tells you to do.

  • F
    2 August 2006

    Islam does not, in any way or form, forces itself on others. Muslims
    can only bring the message to others. It is for them to accept or to
    maintain their own faith.

    If a Muslim forces a person to convert, then that Muslim ceases to
    be one and is destined for Hell.

    It is a misconception that Islam is a religion that is forced upon others.

    Muslims are not anti-Christian, anti-Jewish or anti any other faith.

    It respects all faiths, specially the monoesthic (that it is linked with) ones – Christianity and Judaism. A Muslim cannot be one if he rejects the Prophet
    Moses and Prophet Jesus and their message from God.

    On a side note – Do visit MEMRI, but keep in mind that it is a site that is maintained by pro-Israeli group/s whose main purpose is to distort
    the Arab media views to the West, for its own gain.

  • MoClippa
    2 August 2006

    A few good points, a lot of preaching for a secular… I’d agree with those who stated that these programs often do little more then to split views into extremes and by consequence cause social splits and increased hostilities towards one another. On the other hand, they do encourage debate, but I think at times she had on a pair of blinders in her portrayl of Israel (though if I remember correctly she mentioned Jew rather then Israel). To say that they do no wrong is as overtly prejudiced as the Muslim extremist who thinks he is doing gods will and that everyon else is wrong.

    The guy she was debating was an idiot extremist, who I’m glad she put in his place, and the moderator wasn’t doing his job at all… but that seems to be typical in a lot of our programing.

    To be honest, as a secular arab, I cannot say I liked her much… she took what at times may have been a decent argument, oversimplified it, and justified/criticized things while holding a monologue… to me people like her are almost as bad as the people shes criticizing. (but then again, I’ve only seen this video of her, so I shouldn’t be making value judgments on her character).

  • Ethan
    2 August 2006

    Muslimscan only bring the message to others. It is for them to accept or to
    maintain their own faith.

    If a Muslim forces a person to convert, then that Muslim ceases to
    be one and is destined for Hell.

    It is a misconception that Islam is a religion that is forced upon others.

    Certainly there is no compulsion in religion. However, nonmuslims, historicaly were treated as second class citizens. Look, for example, in Egypt. It’s illegal to build new churches, or prostelyze if you’re Christian.

    Saudis arrest Christian groups, even if they are in their own homes.

    The idea of Dhimmitude, as presented in multiple works of Islamic jurispridence reduces, humiliates and dehumanizes non-muslims. The only way out is to convert. So even if there’s no physical compulsion, the political and social pressure is overwhelming.

  • F
    2 August 2006

    I’m not familiar with what is happening in Egypt but I doubt they
    not allow the building of new Chruches. There is a sizable Coptic population that is respected. There have been isolated problems between peoples, but unfortunately their religion keeps on showing up on the papers.

    Saudi is not exactly a true Islamic society. They are restrictions about
    opening Churches there. People do pray within their own house and
    gatherings within compounds. But arresting them, highly doubt it.

    I disagree that it is part of Islamic jurisprudence. There is no disrespect
    to any non-Muslims and no forced conversions be in physical, political
    or social.

    In Bahrain, we have chruces, a synagogue and temples. Majority is
    a Muslim society that respects all. We don’t look down at any non-Muslim
    nor do we force anyone to convert.

    Its quite possible that there are other religions, who are not open to
    all peoples of the world, keeping their own bloodline pure, would reduce, humiliate and dehumanize others.

  • Johnster
    2 August 2006

    F. re Saudi, restrictions is not the word. Churches are BANNED in Saudi, Christoians are regularly improsened and beaten. If you born into a Muslim family and convert to any other religion, you face the death penalty (as in Iran). The teaching in schools in Saudi is still vehemently anti Christian and anti Jewish.

    You are right, Bahrain is more tolerant (there are some prominent Jewish trading families, there is/was a Jewish member of the Shura, I believe) but there is great social pressure to conform eg Muslim women are not permitted to marry non-Muslim men, anyone born into a Muslim family who chooses another religion faces social ostracision.

    Kuwait, I believe, has/has had Christian MPs (perhaps someone can clarify).

  • mahmood
    2 August 2006

    The Bahraini Shura council had two non-Muslim Bahrainis in the just ended term: Ibrahim Nonoo, a Jewish gentleman, and Alice Semaan a Christian lady.

    It might also interest you to know that Ms. Semaan actually chaired one session of parliament as, following the Parliamentary bylaws, being the eldest in the chamber in the absence of the chair and his deputies, she took the hammer and has become not only the only woman to chair a parliamentary chamber in the Arab world, but be the first Christian woman to do so!

    Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslims. The only way to do that is for the prospective husband to convert to Islam. This has happened and will continue to happen in our societies. I personally know several couples who have taken this route and are living happily.

    Apostasy is punishable by Shari’a law, but only the very highest highest Shari’a authority is permitted – by Islam and the State – to declare that someone has left the faith, as it is explicitly forbidden in Islam to prosecute based on personal belief. So if you don’t believe in Islam, but you do not declare it, it is impossible for anyone to prosecute you for apostasy, because this is simply between the individual and his/her Maker.

    That’s the theory, and in Shi’ism is the practice as well. For the “takfiris” who are the Wahabis it’s a different ball game. Labeling people as apostates (kafirs) is their daily hobby!

  • Al-Taweela
    2 August 2006

    Hey Mahmood,
    Your BLOG is worth $106,000 at least … check this site out http://www.business-opportunities.biz/projects/how-much-is-your-blog-worth/

    This is a site that measures the worthiness of a blog based on a number of factors including hits etc…

    Chan’ad is worth approximately $70,000!
    Emoodz around $14,000…
    Bahrainblogs.org only a mere $12,500…

    I guess hot topics keeps the value up…. the only guy who beats you is Sabbah because of his coverage of the Lebanese war… his blog is worth more than $150K

  • Ethan
    2 August 2006

    I’m not familiar with what is happening in Egypt but I doubt they
    not allow the building of new Chruches.

    I got my information from BigPharaoh and Sandmonkey on this. Considering they are Egyptian, I take their words as credible.

    So if you don’t believe in Islam, but you do not declare it, it is impossible for anyone to prosecute you for apostasy, because this is simply between the individual and his/her Maker.

    In the interest of religious freedom, the fact that one is basically disallowed to convert openly in an Islamic (or “Islamic”) society is an anethma. In fact, this same behavior is seen in many cults – leaving the cult means death or social ostricization.

    If Islam is true, and truth stands apart from falsehood, why would it fear the words of other religions? Must it stand not by its own strengths but by fear of reprisal if one were to leave? God wishes for true faith in him, not the faith of a slave who fears being beaten.

  • F
    2 August 2006

    Johnster – as I stated before, Saudi Arabia is not exactly a true Islamic society. It is a criminal act, and anti-Islamic, to punish anyone for their own beliefs.

    Ethan – Islam does stand on its own strengths. It does not fear the words
    of any other religion. There are certain codes that we follow – a way of life. Its been there for 1400 years and has 1.2 billion people following it. It also has the highest number of people converting to Islam. This would certainly
    not have been the case if Islam was based on fear.

  • Desert Island Boy
    2 August 2006

    Ibn,

    Desert Island = Bahrain!!!

    In reference to points made by Condi BITCH and Ethan, Sultan’s beef is with extremists, not with the faith itself. Although she seems to think that extremism is a product OF the faith, and I can’t be bothered to raise that flag.

    Several months ago, Mahmood posted a cartoon where a keffiyah masked wahhabi held up a sign declaring himself to be the primary representative/advocate for Islam. A good number of comments on this thread have only shown how the outside world has bought into that nonsense. Just because they shout the loudest, they do not become synonymous with the message.

    So the question comes down to are religious nutjobs a product of their religion or is religion simply a ready outlet for their perverse passions?

  • John Miller
    2 August 2006

    “The Bahraini Shura council had two non-Muslim Bahrainis in the just ended term: Ibrahim Nonoo, a Jewish gentleman, and Alice Semaan a Christian lady”

    Mahmoud, I am just curious, Mr. Nonoo from where he came to Bahrain? did Bahrain bought him from Israel or U.S. (as usually soccer clubs buy players ?) and can you tell us Ms. Semaan from which Arabic tribe she descend? we all know that Gulf residents are by most are Bedouin and Arabs from Hijaz. Can you elaborate, please?

  • mahmood
    2 August 2006

    Most non-Muslim Bahrainis came from Iraq, Iran, Palestine, India etc. Some escaping persecution in their native countries I suspect, while others due to trade.

    I don’t know much about their history beyond this I’m afraid, but I do know that most of these families came to Bahrain in the 1920s and settled here since then.

  • mahmood
    2 August 2006

    Thanks Taweela, if only that were true!

  • Ethan
    2 August 2006

    It does not fear the words of any other religion.

    Then why, pray tell, do you rarely find a Muslim-majority nation which will allow missionaries to preach? Why is it that many nations still have legal penalties for conversion away from Islam?

    Why did Mohammed himself say “If anyone changes his religion, kill him.” (If you want a reference, I shall provide)? That is fear. Even if the conversion rates to Islam are high (numbers which I tend to be critical of) the conversion rates -out- of Islam are artificially low. At least publically.

    On the other hand, Bahrain (as I know from hanging out here for long enough) is a very open environment with comparatively generous religious freedoms. The same cannot be said for its neighbors.

  • Jared in NYC
    2 August 2006

    Here’s an intersting article about Jews in Bahrain:

    http://www.internationalspecialreports.com/middleeast/00/bahrain/23.html

    And here’s a site about Jews in the Ara world generally:

    http://www.al-bab.com/arab/background/jews.htm

  • Ibn
    2 August 2006

    Mahmood,

    Apostasy is punishable by Shari’a law, but only the very highest highest Shari’a authority is permitted – by Islam and the State – to declare that someone has left the faith, as it is explicitly forbidden in Islam to prosecute based on personal belief. So if you don’t believe in Islam, but you do not declare it, it is impossible for anyone to prosecute you for apostasy, because this is simply between the individual and his/her Maker.

    It is a pity that Islamic faith has this caveat, and I really think its ridiculous. My background is Muslim, but I left the faith a couple years ago to become athiest. Needless to say, there are those Muslims out there who are nice and simply try to “convert me back”, but then there are others who tout to my face “you know it is ok for us to kill you in three days if you do not come back.”

    I simply look at them and say: “Is your religion so weak that you need to bully – even threaten people with death before they are become Muslim?”

    Usually that shuts them up, but then puts them on a wide-eyed tirade about how I have “abandoned my Islamic heritage and roots”.

    I think part of the reason people become so emotional about someone else “leaving” Islam, is because our Arabic culture and Islam are to some extent knit together. (When saying “really”, we will often say “walla” for example – where “walla” alludes to a Allah). So the overall perception is that this individual has not only abandoned Islam, but also his culture. And abandoning culture meaning this person probably hates everything from his mother’s ka’ek, to his mother tongue, to cultural routines. That is probably where it hurts the most.

    What they fail to understand is that I have not abandoned culture. I love my Arabic heritage, and my Arabic culture. I simply do not believe in the supernatural being called Allah.

    No doubt, this is an emotional issue with people. It always will be. But the trick is, for people – and us Arabs, to realise that every person is sovereign in their own own beliefs, and while we may argue to eternity about religion, there must be no violation of a person’s individual and property rights due to his religion in any way, shape or form. Sadly, this is not the case across the Arab world, and this must change.

    Minds have to be free to function. I am sure even Allah realises this.

    -Ibn

  • mahmood
    2 August 2006

    Ibn, the only way people will realise that religion is a personal choice, and ONLY a personal choice, is when we have an education system that promotes pluralism, torlerism and respect for the other human beings on the planet.

    This is a theme I have written quite a lot about, and passionately believe in, as this – proper education – is the key to our salvation and our future.

    Here is some food for thought I have touched upon earlier:

  • F
    2 August 2006

    We do have the American Mission Hospital, a missionary project.
    They’re objective, first and foremost, has been to preach Christianity.
    They also provide health support to the families here. Its been here
    over a hundred years and they probably have a figures of people who have converted to Christianity. I’m sure, the number must less than 10.

    In regards to the the statement, do give me the reference. I’m curious.
    If true, I can ask a religous scholar about it. Or, since you are in Bahrain,
    you can ask Discover Islam. They might be in a better position to answer
    your queries.

    True Islamic states do not exist in this region. They are all tribal states.
    Slowly, they’ll develop into more Islamic states. Western states – Europe
    and the US are more Islamic than all Arab/Muslim countries are.

  • mahmood
    2 August 2006

    confused F, can you explain what you’re asking better?

    as to the conversions performed by the Americal Mission, I have no idea and I don’t particularly care. I support your premise however that very few Muslims would consider this conversion, but have you thought of those people with other religions who might consider this path?

    In that sense, do you see the American Mission’s competition for souls is Discover Islam and Islamic Education and the various other Muslim Mission societies?

  • Ethan
    2 August 2006

    Western states – Europe and the US are more Islamic than all Arab/Muslim countries are.

    I’ve heard this before. He-who-must-not-be-named said it. I disagree with the implication, but i agree with the sentiment. If your interpretation of Islam is of the Medinian peace variety, then yes – the pluralist West is very Islamic.

    However, there are many ‘Islams’, and the West, with its realization that women are not to be covered up so that only those that ‘own’ them may gaze upon them certainly does not fall in line with those interpretations.

    —–

    As for your reference(s) – here they are:

    http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/084.sbt.html

    I trust this source – it is from the Muslim Student Organization of the University of Southern California. They have no reason to lie or distort as other sources may.

    Bukhari volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:

    Narrated ‘Ikrima:

    Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to ‘Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn ‘Abbas who said, “If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, ‘Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.’

    Also

    Bukhari volume 9, Book 89, Number 271:

    Narrated Abu Musa:

    A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu’adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu’adh asked, “What is wrong with this (man)?” Abu Musa replied, “He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism.” Mu’adh said, “I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle.”

    Also

    Bukhari volume 9, Book 84, Number 64:

    Narrated ‘Ali:

    Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah’s Apostle, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you (not a Hadith) then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.

  • mahmood
    2 August 2006

    Ethan where do you get these references from?

  • Ibn
    2 August 2006

    F,

    In regards to the the statement, do give me the reference. I’m curious.
    If true, I can ask a religous scholar about it.

    Im confused – are you asking me, or Mahmood?

    If you are asking me about the statement of “we have the right to kill you in 3 days if you do not revert back to Islam“, then yes, please go ahead and ask an Islamic scholar if you indeed have access to one.

    Not that I think it matters what he says anyhow – in my experience this attitude is very prevalent. From people in college, to the Abdul Rahman’s case in Afghanistan. Still, I would be curious to see what the scholar you know has to say about it.

    -Ibn

  • Ethan
    2 August 2006

    http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/084.sbt.html

    They’re right here, Mahmood, the link should pop right to the correct page.
    Unless you’re asking something else, in which case, I have no idea what you’re getting at.

  • Johnster
    2 August 2006

    Jared

    That’s a great article and I would recommend it to everyone especially those Westerners who sit in the West pontificating on the subject from a point of gross ignorance. It gives a really encouraging and positive insight. On the disturbances against Jewish houses and other buildings (which resulted in one death) folowing the announcement of the creation of Israel in the 40’s, the advisor to the Sheikh of Bahrain noted in his memoirs:

    “The leading Arabs were genuinely shocked by the affair; most of them behaved very well and when possible they had given shelter to and protected their Jewish neighbours”

    He also states that the instigators of the violence were “Persians” and “tough Omani fishermen”

    This tends to support the report which Jared kindly supplied the link for.

  • mahmood
    2 August 2006

    Thanks Ethan! This is an excellent reference that I am sure to peruse all the time. I was searching for an internet source for the hadiths specifically and didn’t find anything with an easy to use interface. I’ll let you know what I think of it in a while, but judging from what you have posted from it, it should fit my needs quite well.

    Thanks again.

  • mahmood
    2 August 2006

    Johnster, I was talking to my mother about the relationship between Jews and the Bahraini of old and she distinctly remembers that not only did Bahrainis have no qualms of doing business with them (they were especially good carpet-baggers I am told, as well as buying and selling quite a variety of goods from clothes to copper) they also had them living right in their midst and never, ever, had a problem with them.

    The same really goes for the Christians. The American Mission Hospital, school and the Evangelical Church back the main Shi’a cemetery in Manama. That, I am sure you will agree is a very sensitive location, yet, they never had a problem with their neighbours and they coexisted quite well together.

    Yet the same goes with hindus and buddhists and various other non-Muslims. Bahrainis never had a problem with any of them throughout theirs lives and we lived and coexisted with them without incident.

    That, to me, is the essence of Bahrain, and that, to me, why I love it so.

  • Johnster
    2 August 2006

    Absolutely – and I see it all around me. There’s a very good description in the advisor’s book “Personal Column”. Jewish ladies often worked as personal salesmen to Bahraini ladies (selling door to door) – maybe your Mum remembers those days?

    “Many of the Jewish women worked as hawkers, taking good for sale to Arab ladies who, because they were in purdah, could not visit the shops themselves”

    It’s amazing how patriotic for Bahrain an Englishman can become!

  • Ayatollah of Love
    2 August 2006

    Dear Mahmood,

    I have been reading blogs and blogs, and to be honest, I really take my hat off to you, and I bow down to your full and bright ego of descriptive words. Nevertheless, I would like to talk to you on this public blog heart to heart.

    You seem to depict islam, you seem to be of a free mind and spirit. Therefore, as a Kuwaiti living in the West, and I can give you my home address so you can send your 4 dogs to sniff me out if you like.

    Lets speak of monarchies. Lets open a chapter of overwhelming emotions and grief and gratitude starting with Saudi Arabia and ending with Zimbabwe. I wonder if you have the testicles ie.e cohones (might be a spelling mistake) to honestly talk about your MONARCHY. One that keeps embessling oil and people’s wealth. I have never ever seen you really talk about that. Could you please tell me about your monarchy and their fairness and equality.

    Wafa Sultan does have a point when she speaks but I think she includes people like you and your MONARCHY.

    Ones that are stick in the MIDDLE AGES, and BARBARIC attributes like political jails and HARIMS. Do you have a HARIM? I bet you don’yt cause your wife is from a SUPER-POWER neighbour.

    I already know your answer. It may take a form of “i don’t answer fools bla bla bla” Its not that I am a fool, its just that you might have lost your hair in fear of losing something else if you answer these questions.

    Shalooooooooooom SAYYID.

  • F
    3 August 2006

    Ibn – I should have clarified…I was discussing an issue with
    Ethan.

    My personal view, regarding your situation is that – its your life.
    You learn, you evolve and you find something that suits you best.
    Go with it. I hope you find happiness.

  • Ibn
    3 August 2006

    Thanks F.

    Ayatollah of love-to-hate,

    Whats your problem dude? I am sure that Mahmood has his own issues with Bahrain’s system of government – in fact he is always criticizing it and recommending how to make the system better and more sane. As of now, Bahrain, along with the rest of the Arab world have ALOT of homework to do. Mahmood, if anyone, is on the forefront of reforms for more individual freedoms and such.

    Your post is nothing more than personal attacks on Mahmood over… nothing really. What exactly are you bitching about?

    wonder if you have the testicles ie.e cohones (might be a spelling mistake) to honestly talk about your MONARCHY.

    This statement is probably the worst out of all of them. Nevermind that Mahmood might put himself and his own family in danger if he does not watch what he says about the monarchy. The fact that he even has this blog itself is courageous enough. That does NOT mean he supports them in whatever and anything Bahrain’s monarchy does. It means there is a corrupt system and he is trying to change the system within the system. It takes talent. Perhaps you should go back to Kuwait and create your own blog bitching non-stop about the monarchy there, and see how long you last.

    -Ibn

  • F
    3 August 2006

    Mahmood….to clarify..I’m sure the American Mission has probably
    converted people of other faiths.

    American Mission, Discover Islam, Islam Education, etc. would be
    competing. The majority of the people would be conveting to Islam.

    I’m sure there is a competition of souls going on. Africa seems to
    be a place where there is a lot of talk of Christian Missionaries work
    taking places and Muslim strongholds where they’re finding difficulty
    to spread their message. Some battles/wars taking places in the
    North Eastern region seem to be more of a religious divide than
    anything else.

  • F
    3 August 2006

    Ethan, thank you for the references details.

    My mistake – I thought you were actually living here on the island. 🙂

    I’ll see if I can get some info on this issue.

    Laters…

  • Ethan
    3 August 2006

    Nope, I’m not on Bahrain, though I would like to visit one day. I’m not sure my wife would enjoy the weather though!

  • mahmood
    3 August 2006

    Ethan, here’s your chance then: convert to Islam, come over and we’ll find you a nice 2nd wife to rejuvenate your youth! Islam does have it’s plusses after all!

    😆

    <tongue firmly in cheek>

  • Eric Jacobson
    3 August 2006

    “Ethan, here’s your chance then: convert to Islam, come over and we’ll find you a nice 2nd wife to rejuvenate your youth! Islam does have it’s plusses after all!”

    Good grief. I can barely manage with ONE wife. Why would any man in his right mind want two (or more)? 🙂

    Now, a concubine, on the other hand…

  • johnster
    3 August 2006

    I just read about the passing of Anais Nin’s second husband. . And for a while he was just that as she, bigamously, commuted between the two. After reading Delta of venus, she probably needed at least two, plus some extras

    That really is equality!

  • jasra jedi
    3 August 2006

    I am hardly an Islamic scholar, so F/Ethan – I am going to stay away from the finer points of Islamic jurisprudence when evluating the American Mission vs Discover Islam.

    As far as I am concerned, the American Mission opened a hospital, adopted lots of children, and has contributed significantly to the society, irrespective of their religios or political affiliation. Discover Islam’s claim to fame is bringing in the idiot David Duke to speak. And if memory serves me correctly, they have a bunch of self righteous Moslems who have very strong views on what makes a ‘true’ moslem and donate accordingly.

    If both were fund raising, I would donate to the American Mission. Even though I am a Moslem.

    On another note, Mahmood, its very generous of you to offer Ethan a second wife. Just make sure that she is well versed on prenuptials in Islam … divorce can be more lucrative than the 50% rule in Calfornia ..

  • Don Cox
    3 August 2006

    “Consider: Judaism, Christianity, Islam. Only one is true – and two false.”

    Logically, they can all be false. Or one or more of them can be partly true.

    Or they could all be talking about the same things, in human languages that are far too crude and simple to say anything accurate. Like when the only pictures available of some famous historical person are one bad drawing and two blurry black-and-white photos. How are you to know what that person really loked like?

  • mahmood
    3 August 2006

    Damn, now he knows what to look out for! 😉

  • Johnster
    3 August 2006

    Yeah man…it’s come to me…we’re just all feeling different parts of the same elephant

  • Anonymous
    4 August 2006

    I thought she was bloody fantastic!

  • Ethan
    6 August 2006

    Just make sure that she is well versed on prenuptials in Islam … divorce can be more lucrative than the 50% rule in Calfornia ..

    Oh heck. I’m going for one of those Wahabbist marriages. 😛

  • Loki
    7 August 2006

    Eric,

    Good grief. I can barely manage with ONE wife. Why would any man in his right mind want two (or more)?

    When there is competition in the market. The consumer benifits. …… 😛

  • Barry
    8 August 2006

    Ayatollah del Amor…..

    If you’re going to insult someone and use a foreign language, get the word right. It’s COJONES, sheesh!

    La ignorancia es atrevida

  • Not Impressed
    1 November 2006

    Give me a break. This highly edited “clip” was put together by MEMRI, the zionist disinformation site. The Aquol transcript puts the whole debate in perspective. Wafa Sultan is a shallow liar which explains why all these right wing assholes and some lefty neocon types are drooling over this shit.
    The only who need a “reformation” are Sultan and her handlers.
    Get a clue Mahmoud!

  • Hunter
    13 June 2007

    She is a revolutionary. I loved the video. Violence is never the answer, and radical Islam does not understand that.

  • Salman
    13 June 2007

    Lets see.. Jews murder children everyday and drive people out of their homes is OK. Jews use their so called technology to build weapons to kill their enemies with, OK. Jews just sent a spy satellite yesterday into space to spy on Syria and Iran, OK. Jews illegally walk into the home of someone else and occupy it and want to take over, OK.

    Yes yes, its OK. At the end of the day, look at where she is living, and where others are living. Doesn’t seem like she is in the line of danger, or living in Palestine and suffering like our fellow Palestinians are. She has not had a son murdered by the IDF, or a brother, or a husband, or a cousin, or uncle, or nephew, or relative, hence why she does not moan about other peoples struggles and problems. This woman is full of shit to be quite honest. Let her take herself and her children to Palestine and live there, and when an IDF soldier shoots a full magazine of M16 bullets into her child, she will realize the bullshit she just said here.

    And about free thinking, Islam does not limit thinking, but it preaches education and learning, and expanding your knowledge.

    Seems like she knows nothing about Islam.

  • fahad
    16 June 2007

    yea mahmood ! post the video of the link that salman has posted ! let the poeple see how wafa sultan got owned and grilled by a muslim.

    let the people see how can we overcome and break out of the shell that the west has acast upon our primitive brains!

  • deenialislam
    1 August 2007

    This is a load of BS!! How can this be called human rights??!!! This debate is one sided, biased, cut, and meant to be anti-islamic. To all the People: did any one bother to see the full debate? Or are we going to be listening to a political prostitute? Wake up people! She is doing it for money!!

  • deenialislam
    1 August 2007

    What is radical Islam? Didn’t half a billion people die in the “New World” under the spanish conquistadors? What about zionism? What about the iraq war? Why not see the full debate in which this witch is shut up? Be real! Ths debate is one-sided and biased!

  • victoria
    17 August 2007

    This is a segment of an interview with her

    ´She is a short woman, but hugely endowed with vision and courage. Warm and free of pretense, she remains aware of the importance of her message. “I think that in 300 years, the name Wafa Sultan will be remembered as someone who helped Islam come out of the Middle Ages,” she told Ynet.

    Her own departure from the Middle Ages was triggered by the murder of her lecturer at the Halab Medical School in 1979. Members of the Muslim Brotherhood murdered eye doctor Prof. Yusef al Yusef because he was an Alawi (like the family of Syrian President Bashar Assad), yelling ‘Allah Akbar’, shooting into the air, and driving off on a motorcycle.

    Dr. Sultan called this the turning point in her life. She started questioning her life and belief system, with her husband, whom she had met at the time. She stopped fasting and praying. Her husband wandered from embassy to embassy trying to get a visa. It took them ten years to get out of Syria.´

    It appears she fled to the US as a sanctuary from the horrors in her homeland..!!

  • Abdulkarim
    18 August 2007

    I find it really disturbing that deenialislam’s (which means land of Islam) only line of defence against Wafa Sultan is to use foul language. He or she even called her a politicial protitute. Is that the only thing you have to say in defence of your faith?

  • victoria
    19 August 2007

    Abdulkarim

    I think you are make a good point ! I believe that we should respect others and their opinions even if we disagree with them. We should agree to disagree so to speak , but still honour and respect the other persons right to hold a totally different perspective without denigrating them as a person. After all they are a fellow human being of equal worth . Isn´t that a basic human right ? to have the freedom to make up ones own mind on an issue and make choices accordingly ? whether they be good or bad choices …

  • Abdulkarim
    19 August 2007

    Victoria,
    Fully agree with you provided of course, ones views do not incite hatred or violence.
    But would deenialislam subscribe to these views? I doubt it! Do not expect much from a person who has called a brave lady whose only crime was to have expresed different views from his a political prostitute. How shameful of him to say that! How low!

  • Salman
    20 August 2007

    deenialislam is right in every word he says. Who is the CNN government biased? Why is the GDN in Bahrain government biased? Are you telling me that is not political prostitution? Face the reality, both of you, and stop living in your own little perfect world, which does not exist! Live the reality, and speak of the reality that happens. Fix the problems that exist first, not ignoring them like they don’t exist.

    She took Islam out of the Middle Ages? Islam got people out of the Middle Ages! Islam is complete in every single way and form, whether you like it or not. It is flawless. The flaw is within us, the people who practice it, we make the mistakes, and the religion takes the blame.

    The respectable cleric spoke the truth to her, yet everyone ignore the video i posted. Why did Mahmood not post the video i posted? Regardless of the avoidance of the truth, she got shut up, good.

    leaving Islam, proved how pathetic she is. If she was as “intelligent” and “brave” as she claims to be, and that you all rant and rave about her being, and you all proclaim, why did she leave Islam? Why not follow the true teachings of Islam, and stand up to all the people who do not follow the religion correctly, and guide them to the correct path? Why did she quit? Shows how “brave” she is, doesn’t it?

    Money changes the minds of people. Some people just want fame, so they just try to be different, to stand out. Like her, and many others. Yet, they always run away from the argument, and hide behind lame excuses.

    I just ask you all to wake up to the reality. Yes, there are people being payed to spew hatred among us. And guess what? You cannot change that. But identify it, and enlighten people about it, so they do not fall for the emotional trap these lobbies lay for them.

    Do you think that the cartoon controversy in Denmark was not planned out? They knew exactly what to do. Lets insult their Prophet who they love so much, and they will get emotional, and run around burning and killing and chanting slogans against us, praying for our death and doom, and the rest of that rubbish. They knew how to play us, like a keyboard. But, no one stood up to the Muslims and said “look, this is just a plan to piss us off, so just ignore them. We are confident that the Prophet was a good man, he preached justice and peace, and hence we do not need to even give them a sniff of attention, because they will not shake our trust and beliefs”.

    And they have set many other traps of the like. Playing with human emotions is very dangerous, and they have orchestrated it well.

    Yet, everyone refuses to believe these sort of things exist.

    Good luck to you all, and may Allah guide you to the right path, and enlighten you with the truth.

    Regards

  • victoria
    20 August 2007

    Mr Salman

    You say:-

    “Islam, proved how pathetic she is. If she was as “intelligent” and “brave” as she claims to be, and that you all rant and rave about her being, and you all proclaim, why did she leave Islam? Why not follow the true teachings of Islam, and stand up to all the people who do not follow the religion correctly, and guide them to the correct path? Why did she quit? Shows how “brave” she is, doesn’t it ”

    Wouldn´t you agree that she is certainly braver than the cowardly gunmen who shot her Professor in cold blood and ran off shouting Allah Akbar !!! She chose to speak out against this evil behaviour even though her own life is now threatened. We need more people in this world to stand up to thugs who use violence and hatred to intimidate good people into submission .. Whatever your beliefs this can never be acceptable in a civilised society.

    You said :

    ” Do you think that the cartoon controversy in Denmark was not planned out? They knew exactly what to do. Lets insult their Prophet who they love so much, and they will get emotional, and run around burning and killing and chanting slogans against us, praying for our death and doom, and the rest of that rubbish. They knew how to play us, like a keyboard. But, no one stood up to the Muslims and said “look, this is just a plan to piss us off, so just ignore them ”

    I noticed you didn´t condemn the reaction of violence muslims had to this cartoon… many people of minority faiths in muslim dominated countries were murdered as a result of this ´emotional´ reaction…(i cant provide details if you wish but its not pretty reading..).
    Why is it acceptable for a person to vent their anger at someone elses ´opinion´ by taking the life of the nearest ínfidel that can be found ?? There must be something going wrong in the way Immans are teaching their faith if people who claim to be members of this peaceful faith behave like this !!!

    Take note that when the recent statement by the Pope went out saying that in his opinion only the Catholic Church is a legitimate christian church did we see evangelical or protestant christians running around angrily attacking catholics or burning their churches or even vent their disgust on the innocent minority muslims populations in their country ?? NO this is what I believe is a peaceful people who practice what they believe is true . That we should love our neighbour like ourself no matter what religion or colour of skin…

    Yes this sounds idealistic–…but if more people practiced this sort of “self control” rather than blaming others for their outrageously unjust actions this world would be a lot closer to an ideal world than the mayhem and chaos it so often is at present !!

    May your heart open a little and think of how you would feel if a person outraged by the actions of another came to your home and murdered a close relative of yours in revenge and then shouted at you that it was not their fault but the other made them do it.. Would you agree ????

  • Salman
    20 August 2007

    Victoria, you are picking out sentences from context, and trying to re-debate my post. Read my post carefully, as i answer all your debates within it my dear 🙂

    I did condemn the violence by calling us stupid enough to fall for their traps. I did say she is a coward, and you know why? Because if she knew the true Islam, the preacher of peace, she would know those thugs were not following the true teachings of Islam.

    In the West, what is the % of people who are Christian, and or who claim to be Christian? OK, then ask yourself, is fornication allowed in Christianity? Yet, contraception is even provided and they tell them “go on, have sex, at least your being safe” or “you are old enough to engage into sexual behavior”, yet that is not what the religion they claim to follow, preaches!

    And your last paragraph in your reply to my post. If you are a true believer, if you fear no one but God, no one will shake your foundations or your beliefs, unless you are WEAK.

    Claiming to be a Muslim is one thing, and following the correct teachings of Islam is another 🙂 yet, she judged a religions teachings by the actions of some thugs who claimed to have done it in the name of Islam?

    I a Shia myself, there are many who wish me death everyday, who would love to blow me up if i were living in Iraq, or even do it here if they had the chance or the utilities to. Has it scared me off Islam? Or made me back down and follow their sect to secure my safety? NO! Its because i believe in what i believe in, and nothing and no one will ever scare me off it. I know the true Islam, and it does not preach what they preach. It makes me feel stronger, because i know that these “thugs” are small minded, and i can defeat them with the truth.

    Have a nice day.

  • Abdulkarim
    20 August 2007

    Salman,
    I shall not speak much cause Victoria did much of the work!

    deenialislam was wrong in every word that he said (I assume he is a man). He was rude and it is really pathetic for a man (a coward here hiding behind a mask) to call a woman a prostitute as if that is the end of the story. All people regardless of their profession have views that may be valid.

    You, like him, did not address the issue. You just leashed out against all those who have different views from you. You just say that your religion is perfect and that it is great. Well may be it is but you should make specific responses to the accusations levelled against you otherwise, the debate is meaningless.

    No I do not think the cartoon thing in Denmark was planned and it certainly had no official backing. It was made by a small Danish paper but you made it big. Some of you even had the audacity of burning the Danish flag! How dare you!

  • Salman
    20 August 2007

    Abdulkarim, please be kind enough to provide one flaw in Islam.

    Thank you.

  • Salman
    20 August 2007

    And stop steering off the debate by hiding behind excuses. Speak of reality, not of the perfect little world that you live in, which does not exist anywhere else other than your mind.

  • mahmood
    20 August 2007

    Salman, I’ll take the bait on the proviso that you – or anyone else – don’t ever retort with any form of “takfir” but answer the questions straight and with logic, deal?

    For the record: I am and will continue to be a Muslim. Now that that is out of the way:

    Let’s start with democracy, it is not present in Islam in any binding way, all there is is an unbinding Shura concept. Why is that?

    Let’s also mention that thing of chopping off body parts in this day and age, and don’t come back that it can’t be applied because “it has to be done under a living Imam or Faqih” it’s right in the Quran and Sunnah.

    Let’s also go by how Islam specifically marginalises women and makes them worth “half a man”.

    The inherent violence within it while we maintain that it is “the religion of peace”.

    That should keep you busy for a while.

    As for that clip you offered, I didn’t want to post a clip of a mad man ranting and raving on my blog nor did it offer any intellectual aspect that could be benefited from. Feel free to post it on your blog though.

  • Abdulkarim
    20 August 2007

    Dear Salman,
    I did not speak against Islam here or elsewhere. What I had said was that Wafa Sultan had made some serious accusations agaisnt Islam and it up to its followers to respond to each and every accusation. Sadly your response and that of many others here was to simply brand her a prostitute. That is not an unacceptable response!
    Regards,

  • victoria
    20 August 2007

    Im a little confused Salman . You complain that Wafa Sultan wrongly judges Islam by the actions of others but arn´t you doing that yourself by pointing the finger at Christians ?

    You believe that the gunmen that shot the professor were not following the true teachings of Islam but no doubt they would disagree with you as would many of the mulims that belong to one of the many other splinters of Islam that use their belief to justify violence. They would all argue that they have the true version of Islam and that YOU are misguided. Isn´t this part of the problem ? There is not one authority .All claim to practice the correct form of Islam.

    You mention that others would try to kill you . Note these others are other muslims !not christians , budhists, hindus… but people of your own faith threaten you for daring to believe another form of faith just as they threaten anyone elses freedom of concience..This must make you wonder just how peaceful this faith is if you cant even allow each other to believe what you want…??

  • victoria
    20 August 2007

    Mahmood

    I must commend you on providing this excellent blog .. You are obviously a very enclightened individual and very representative of the many wonderful muslims I have come to know who graciously try to understand others. Who live peaceful lives and show much care and interest in their fellow man no matter what their beliefs. I am often touched by the genuine desire by many muslims to please God and to live holy lives . They have a great respect for God . This is something many ´nominal´ christians (those that are christian in name but not deed) would do well to learn from…

  • Salman
    21 August 2007

    Victoria, i did not point fingers. I just showed you how you think of the subject. If a Muslims preaches hate, you call Islam a religion of violence and that it is against human rights. I just showed you that declaring to be a follower of something is different than actually following it!

  • Salman
    21 August 2007

    Watch the video i posted, listen to the replies from the respectable cleric, and compare it to her video. He grilled her, simply. Face it, your so called “free minded heroin” got bitch slapped. End of story.

  • mahmood
    21 August 2007

    Okay, I see that you, Salman, have reached the end of your intellect and are not worthy of conversing with because you simply scoff off competing thoughts without bothering yourself to open your mind to embrace new concepts or even defend the ones you claim to believe in.

    You’re just wasting time by simply trying to be troll; hence, as far as I am concerned the only one here who is being bitch-slapped and are enjoying it is you!

  • mahmood
    21 August 2007

    Let me try again, maybe we’ll get somewhere with Salman:

    you call Islam a religion of violence and that it is against human rights

    Does chopping off body parts classify as violence?

    How about chasing people into the desert, bringing them back, chopping alternate hands and feet, poke out their eyes, leave them lying in the sun until they shrivel and die not classify as violence?

    All that while having a good wholesome energy drink!

    If you want to debate, then debate, don’t throw at me a video of a foot-stomping-fist-thumping cretin to come to your defence.

    Otherwise just shut up and get back to your sand castles.

  • Salman
    21 August 2007

    Mahmood, as always, you run away from the debate with a lame excuse. I am truly disappointed. And this is not the 1st time that you have done such a thing. In many topics before, you try to act like the “open minded” and “different” one. Remember the 1% tax? I asked you to set a 200BD budget and to live off it for a month, and see how the 1% of that would be so valuable and helpful. You called it a personal attack. No, what i asked you to do was to live like most of the average Bahrainis, so that you will get a bump of reality. Look around you, you live lavishly, i know where you live, i have seen your house, and there is nothing normal about it. Having a pool is not a cheap thing either buddy, your garden is bigger than many peoples houses. But then again, you would say its your hard work. Well, hats off to you buddy. But you should think of others who are still trying to make it somewhere, and be helpful to them, and not support something that will only apply more pressure onto them. No one knows where the money is going to go. And you and I know well of the corruption in this country.

    If you might remember the STOP WANKING! video, i put you into the scenario, and how you would feel if it happened to you, you simply made an excuse and refused to debate. Or maybe it hit you hard and you came to reality? I don’t really know.

    But what i do know is, everyone should stop living in their own little real of perfection, and live in the world that we live in.

  • mahmood
    21 August 2007

    ehm, can anyone on this thread or otherwise interested let me know who actually is running away from the debate like the clappers here?

    Salman, put your brain in gear and get with the program, if you cannot debate, then just graciously skulk away… but I don’t think you will and you’re angling for quite a good spanking which you seem to enjoy.

    Carry on bub.

  • Abdulkarim
    21 August 2007

    It is very clear Mahmood that you have delivered Salman a knock out blow! A job very well done.

    Victoria, it was a joy teaming with you in this demolishing work against the forces of evil and champions of hate.

    As for Salman I say tough luck buddy but remember please that human dignity shall reign supreme and that the forces of liberty will march on in spite of people like you.

  • victoria
    21 August 2007

    Salman

    You Said :-

    ` . I just showed you that declaring to be a follower of something is different than actually following it!´

    Yes I agree Salman if a person claims to be a follower of something but doesn´t practice what they preach than this is deffinately not a genuine follower ..but what I am getting at is how our belief systems ultimately determine our behaviour !! If our belief system says we have justification to be violent than we should not be surprised when its followers are violent.

    If a belief system says love thy neighbour like yourself,,,, turn the other cheek or forgive those that transgress against you …but the adherents are violent anyway than we should question if they are true followers !!! obviously not

    So Salman my challenge to you is check your belief system really thoroughly . If you believe that violence and murder are actually acceptable under certain conditions than it is more than likely your belief system that guides you in this opinion……

    Victoria

  • monline
    22 August 2007

    Well,

    Mermi TV has always been biased.. yes she’s good points.. but if you really look at the original text, this is not what happened…

    She’s just as insane and extreme as islamic counterparts.. she’s showing all arabs/muslims as black!

  • victoria
    22 August 2007

    I Appreciate her courage nonetheless because she is speaking out against an injustice she feels strongly about despite the risk to herself and her family… As a pychologist she would know that a patients journey to health greatly depends on them accepting that they have an illness in the first place. For example An alcaholic can make little progress to recovery until they accept they have an alchohol problem . Denial just prolongs the suffering .. I think she is just attempting to pursuade this particular patient to take a look in the mirror !!. .

  • Abdulkarim
    23 August 2007

    Monline,

    She’s just as insane and extreme as islamic counterparts.. she’s showing all arabs/muslims as black!

    You have unwittingly exposed yourself. How come you call insane people black?

    That is racialism!

    It is worth reminding readers that in the Arab / Muslim culture a good man has a white heart, a generous man has a white hand and a wicked man has a black heart!

    The Arabs call black people slaves. Yes. They would call a black man a slave! Not surprisingly, with over 200 Arabic speaking TV channels there is hardly one single TV personality who is black!

    Now do you see how much you have to go before you could convince your sceptics that you mean them no harm?

    It is not really a question of practicing what you preach. It is the content of your preaching itself that has got to change first.

    Wafa Sultan is a wonderful brave lady. No she is neither insane nor extreme like those Muslim preachers of hate. She is only extreme in her love of humanity and that is no insanity.

  • sharry444
    1 May 2008

    This Wafa Sultan is crazy rant Islam hater who is being promoted by Islam hater Feisal Al-Qasim of anti-Islam fanatic Al-Jazeera.

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