I was aghast when I heard Mr. Bush vehemently threatening Russia since the Georgian invasion and I simply couldn’t but draw parallels at the actions that he took in both Afghanistan and Iraq.
US President George W Bush has accused Russia of “bullying and intimidation” in its military actions inside Georgia.
Mr Bush demanded that Moscow respect Georgia’s territorial integrity and withdraw the troops it sent in a week ago – or risk international isolation.
BBC News
Should I give him the benefit of the doubt, though his words and actions have resolutely put paid that notion, or are we to assume that in the waning hours of his reign he has suddenly become repentant?
Most probably; though, he is simply demonstrating his intellect doesn’t even challenge that of that thing he is admiring!
Comments
The above rant is a concatenation of history that leaves out important details. For example, did Russia take the time to present its case to the international community as America did with invading Iraq?
Furthermore, while it seems that Georgia may be to blame for “provoking” the Russians, it was suspiciously convenient that the Russian Army across the border had been mobilizing for weeks and that their troops had been equipped with detailed plans for invasion.
There’s more here than meets the eye. Did you know that Germany justified its invasion of Poland on the basis of a faked attack against German soil?
Finally, I don’t rank the prospect of “diplomatic isolation” the same as a “vehement threat” – one demands immediate satisfaction, lest noncompliance would lead to a violent physical response.
I’ll remind you of this position the day after the Persians come to the rescue of their “brothers” within Bahrain.
It’s interesting (to me at least!) that you didn’t see fit to offer an opinion of your own on Russia’s actions. You don’t have one? If it’s OK for the “mother country” to invade the sovereignty of another nation to “defend” minorities there, what are the implications for Bahrain? I’m going to assume on those grounds that you are opposed to what Russia just did. Which leaves me wondering what you hope to gain by criticizing the only country in the world that can possibly do anything about it?
cvt, exactly. Sorry I didn’t read your comment before posting mine 🙂
And we can remind the Persians of their comments the day after the Kurds and the Azeris (with US help of course) rescue their comrades in Iran. All these borders will be drawn properly, eventually! That seems to be what everyone wants!
In Mahmoods defense, i think he is simply stating the obvious, which is that it seems very hypocritical for the US president to make those comments, after his illegal invasion of Iraq, and illegal tactics used in numerous facilities.
Did the US go to the international comity before Iraq? Yes they did. Did anyone agree with them? No they did not. Did they find any WMD’s? No they did not. What reason is left to stay? None whatsoever.
I am not commenting on whether the Russians were right or wrong, just that the President is full on hypocrite.
Exactly my position too. So before anyone else jumps on my back, do read what I have written and comprehend it first.
Exactly my position too. So before anyone else jumps on my back, do read what I have written and comprehend it first.
These wing nuts don’t care about your position. All they care about is nobody criticizing or exposing western and American hypocrisy. Criticism is only for the anti-western league. As for the comparison between Russia and Georgia in this war …. its rubbish; because Russia is really threatened by NATO being at its door steps and the new missile bases in Poland and at the end of the day it’s operating in it’s neighborhood and only repelled American-backed Georgia a full 24 hours after their attack; which is nothing like what America did to a country that is thousands of miles away from it and wasn’t a threat to it at all .
Also, to the idiots comparing the saving of Bahrain from the Persians, the whole point of the post was to highlight your governments hypocrisy and lies. If your government stopped Iran from Invading Bahrain or interfered with any other war between countries it would only be for its own self interests ( be it oil or geography ) and not for humanitarian reasons, otherwise it would be siding with the Palestinians and Lebanese instead of Israel. The US has never intervened in a conflict it has no interests in …….. so cut the trash, even the more enlightened of your society are fed up of you Zionist religious nuts.
Naruto,
These wing nuts don’t care about your position. All they care about is nobody criticizing or exposing western and American hypocrisy. Criticism is only for the anti-western league.
That is the whole point I was trying to make. There is NO CRITCISM in Mahmood’s post of Russia. Or of Georgia. Or of South Ossetia. The ONLY one to receive criticism is the United States/George Bush. Considering the subject matter, doesn’t that seem at all bizarre, to you?
And Mahmood… your arguments about hypocrisy and loss of moral high ground cut the other way as well. China lost its moral authority a month or two ago in Tibet. Russia lost its moral last week, in Georgia. Who is going to say the US is morally wrong, next time around? Wouldn’t that be funny, now? Listening to the Chinese or the Russians, calling the US an imperialistic oppressor?
And Mahmood… your arguments about hypocrisy and loss of moral high ground cut the other way as well. China lost its moral authority a month or two ago in Tibet. Russia lost its moral last week, in Georgia. Who is going to say the US is morally wrong, next time around?
No it doesn’t actually, because neither Russia nor China have ever invaded another country under the pretense of spreading democracy or freedom of speech or improving human rights. You see the unique problem the US has is that it isn’t living up to the standards it’s holding other people to. It issues human rights reports and uses it as an excuse to attack other nations, supposedly to support democracy and; when it suits it, it turns the other eye. That’s not something either China nor Russia have done . At most China issues Human rights abuse reports against the US in reaction to the US’s reports that’s the most either have done. If you are going to invade countries to impose an idealistic version of your society you should at least strive to ideally implement it in your country first !!
Considering the subject matter, doesn’t that seem at all bizarre, to you?
The subject matter, was the hypocrisy of the west; especially Bush, he was using this war as an example only so no its not strange actually if you read your governments statements you would be just as dumbfounded .
Here are some examples :
Bush said :
“Georgia’s sovereignty and territorial integrity must be respected,”
“Bullying and intimidation are not acceptable ways to conduct foreign policy in the 21st century,”
from a guy who invaded Iraq and, if given his way would partition it. Not to mention the threats issued from your congress to sign the oil law or face withdrawal of US occupational funds. Nor the US’s part in stopping the Iraqi government from transferring billions of its funds from US dollars to Euro’s.
Not to mention the bullying and black mailing exercised on the rest of the middle east on a daily basis nor the bullying of other third world countries.
he also said :
“I’ve expressed my grave concern about the disproportionate response of Russia and that we strongly condemn the bombing outside of South Ossetia,”
Really ? where were you in 2006 when Israel bombed the hell out of Lebanon ?
or this gem, by robert gates :
“My personal view is that there need to be some consequences for the actions that Russia has taken against a sovereign state.”
How about taking some actions against the US first; for its part in Iraq ….. I mean duh you invaded Iraq long before Russia’s retaliatory attack on Georgia so why aren’t you held accountable for your actions first ?
Or this piece of art by McCain :
In the 21st century, nations don’t invade other nations.
Apart from his support of the Iraq war isn’t this the idiot who supports the bombing of Iran and isn’t he the one who was gleeing at the notion of Iranians dying from smoking, as a means of defeating them ?
No Craig. I did not want to comment about the Russian/Georgian axis because to the subject at hand that situation is immaterial. What is; however, is the clearly hypocritical position that the US administration has taken to them conveniently forgetting its gross over-reaction for 9/11 (1) and (2) its universally condemned actions in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
It’s a clear case of what’s good for the goose is NOT good for the gander.
Do I condone Russian actions in Georgia? Of course I don’t. I just hope that they – unlike the States – do have an after-war scenario.
LOL, how funny is it that someone who spends so much energy coming up with a code of ethics for bloggers can regurgitate such moral relativism and clichés.
Your last sentence takes the cake. “after-war scenario†yeah, the absorption of two Georgian provinces into Mother Russia!
What is the Persians’ “after war scenario†for Bahraini bloggers? Wanna hint:think of lampposts…
To Solomon,
Regarding America representing its case to the world, they were going into Iraq and Afghanistan without caring who agreed and who didn’t. Besides, who would agree that one country invade another and wage war against it.
The USA would not interfere with another countries business if it had no money to make out of that country or benefit from it.
The USA was even close to invading KSA when the King turned off the oil taps! Thats the really interesting part. I go into someone else’s land, start making money out off it. And if they don’t let me, I will just invade and occupy their country to make sure I have my way of life in my country, on the other side of the world.
Hey Salman
The USA would not interfere with another countries business if it had no money to make out of that country or benefit from it.
LOL
I go into someone else’s land, start making money out off it. And if they don’t let me, I will just invade and occupy their country to make sure I have my way of life in my country
thinking like a true Hijazi Arab!
There is nothing or no one in the Mid East worth the life of a single American.
I am not even post a comment other than to say it sure is still popular and damn convenient to bash the USA.
I can only hope that when Iran gets itchy feet, the USA sits back and watches………………………..enough American lives have already been wasted on backwards countrys and stupid thinkers.
Calm down people.
And then answer this question:
Do you not think that the American stance now as hypocritical?
America went into Iraq two times. Once when your friendly brother paid a what, an unwelcome visit to Kuwait? Gassed his neighbors in Iran? Was commiting genocide on his Kurdish citizens? Tell me.
The 2nd time when Bush decided AND the UN sanctioned, actions were necessary for the incessant re-arming and preparing for what next? Another neighborly visit to his gulf brethren? Food for oil, a UN farce as most are. Tell me what he was planning?
And the World Trade towers, US over reaction? What should we wait for? A nuke in downtown D.C.?
Gulf countries and other 3rd world wannabes, feel free to grow a pair of balls anytime you want.
US has NEVER practiced imperialism or colonialism, the UK, France, and other “civilized” European nations have…
Japan, Germany, defeated and yes, “occupied”?, and are now world leaders…..
US aid to the world exceeds ALL other nations. And for what and why? This US taxpayer would like to know.
Russia, Georgia, personally I would sit back and let them kill each other, as I would most other countries around the world. This American has also “had enough”, but not for the same reasons as you.
Europe remain silent, GCC shhhh don’t say a word, as in Darfur………..it doesn’t bother me except for those damn nasty Americans again……..
The American stance would be hypocritical if, after spending the money and lives to give Iraqis and Afghans the opportunity to make their own self-determination for their futures, turned and told the Georgians “sorry, you’re own your own”.
And answer this question:
Mahmood wrote “I heard Mr. Bush vehemently threatening Russia”
Please quote verbatim this threat, providing the source.
To quote one of my favorite philosophers, you’re entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.
CVT,
Answer this please: Why has America not interfered in the conflicts in Africa and tried to save people from genocide, poverty and suffering?
Oh wait, I know the answer! 😀 No oil 🙄
Salman
These are 2 questions:
Why has America not interfered in the conflicts in Africa
Africa is a big place,try to be more specific. Take Darfur, Bush should have gotten involved but was told over and over by Sub-Saharan African leaders (e.g Nigerian) they wanted to show they could handle it themselves.We see the results.
BTW, there’s oil in Sudan, ask the Chinese.
I was on a supply mission flight into Nairobi in 1994 for the Rwanda massacre. The French (Mitterand) fought tooth & nail to keep the Americans out. The English newspapers (last week) are still finding out about his evil involvement in that tragedy.
tried to save people from genocide, poverty and suffering?
Last time I looked Americans delivered aid to earthquake victims from Pakistan to Iran and to tsunami victims throughout Southeast Asia. Having been in Indonesia, I didn’t run into anyone named Salman, or for that matter, see or learn of anyone from the Mid East who volunteered for relief missions.
Hey Mahmood, no I don’t think it’s hypocritical of the US at all. You asked and I’m answering. Sakashvili is democratically elected. Democratically. He is not a despot funding terrorists and destablising his region. He is the democratically elected leader of Georgia and the South Ossetia zone is close to the Russian border, closely identifies with Russia and calls constantly for independence. If it is similar to anything it is similar to the Basque separatists in Northern Spain and Southern France. But the Spaniards don’t roll in with tanks.
So there is no comparison to Iraq or Afghanistan. None. How could you imagine there is? You must imagine Sept 11 never happened and the Taliban was peacefully elected. You must think Saddam was peacefully elected too and hadn’t been in breach of sundry UN resolutions for years, as well as paying terrorists and generally making his country a toilet.
Bush is quite right to call Putin and Medvedev out on it. They’ve all signed a ceasefire and we’ll see what happens, but Russia sent the tanks in and that was objectively bad and it should never be the case that another country, like the US, cannot point that out. I don’t know what the Islamic version of ‘let he who is without sin case the first stone’ is but as a philosophy it’s very silly, cos the truth is some people do bad things – and that’s the Russians in this case – and when they do they should not be protected from having their failures pointed out to them.
I think we all agree that once men of principles become presidents they lose them.
ah – but the US does its illegal invasions in the name of “Fredom-n-dmocracy”. Apparently that makes it ok, that’s the difference…
answer; of course it is.
and since some people here are not convinced with Afghanistan/Iraq/Iran/Israel examples. here is a more close and recent example of American HYPOCRICY;
Kosovo tries to secede from Serbia – Serbia tries to stop it – US rolls in with blazing tomahawks and planes to stop it.
South Ossetia tries to secede from Georgia – Georgia tries to stop it – Russia rolls in with tanks to stop it and America Objects!!
What is the problem here other than double standards?
Is Georgia comparable to Iraq?
I think Andrew Coyne answered that quite well here:
http://blog.macleans.ca/2008/08/14/georgia-on-my-mind/
CVT:
Just to set the record straight, there are NO “Hijazi Arabs” in Bahrain,, they live up north in Hijaz, in neighboring Saudi Arabia, and they aren’t bedoins btw 🙂 and we don’t have bedoins here either.. Bahrainis, have for centuries been “Hathar” Arabs, meaning civillized. Please read into Gulf Arab anthropology before trying to sound “well informed”.
As for Iranian interests in Bahrain, all I can say is that those that came from Persia, were actually running away from the oppression they felt whilst they were there, just like you and others, ran away from your mother lands to The America’s. Are your loyalties still towards your mother land or are they to the US? Naturally, one would presume, that a dog doesn’t bite the hand that feeds it..
Folks, hypocrisy in politics is so normal, it’s mundane. The US lost the moral high ground when the ink dried on the declaration of independence. It is no more self interested, self motivated, or hypocritical than anyone else. Bush sold the world nothing on Iraq. Iraqis meant nothing to ‘the world’ now nor when they lived under Saddam’s tyranny. When the rest of the world starts meeting the impossibly high standards it demands from the US and steps up to the plate, I might take those complaints more seriously.
As for Georgia, no one will do a thing and personally I really don’t care. Just that ‘had enough’ feeling that grew on me after the sectarian slaughter in Iraq. Countries have to sort out their own self inflicted miseries.
Asks a man who is living under the protection of the US Navy at his shore.
Who might that be I wonder?
Mahmood: “I was aghast when I heard Mr. Bush vehemently threatening Russia since the Georgian invasion and I simply couldn’t but draw parallels at the actions that he took in both Afghanistan and Iraq.”
Obviously, the evil American government must be censoring all the media again, or perhaps its those evil Jews again who control all America, because I have yet to hear Bush threaten Russia. Please, Mahmood, cite me Bush’s threats against Russia. A link to a transcript of these bloodcurdling threats by that tyrant Bush would be good.
Mahmood, are you seriously comparing the Russian invasion of Ossetia with the American invasion of Afghanistan? Perhaps the Sep 11 attack launched from Afghanistan has gone down the Arab Muslim memory hole. Please look me in the eye and tell me that you do not consider an unprovoked terrorist attack from Afghanistan which butchered 2998 innocent people in America to be a legitimate provocation for war. Tell me why exactly America was wrong to wipe out the Al Qaeda camps snuggled in Afghanistan and to remove the Taliban who harbored them, the ones who vaporized Americans drinking coffee in their offices. Or are all Muslim countries simply innocent because they are Muslim? Or are all Muslim countries sacrosanct whatever evil they perpetrate?
By contrast, what attack has Ossetia made upon Russia? What exactly is the parallel of which you speak?
May I remind you of Saddam’s long history of belligerence that led to the invasion of Iraq? Do you recall Saddam’s invasion of three of his neighbors? Do you recall after Iraq was beaten back from its invasion of Kuwait that Saddam refused to abide by the surrender terms? Do you recall that Saddam violated at least sixteen UN resolutions to contain his belligerence? Do you recall that Saddam attempted to assassinate Bush the elder with a car bomb in Kuwait? That Iraq shot hundreds of missiles at US jets patrolling the UN-mandated no-fly zones? That Saddam placed bounties on US military members for their death or capture?
How many of its neighbors has Ossetia invaded? How many UN resolutions has it defied? How has Ossetia provoked Russia other than by being weak and vulnerable?
Please do tell us how you think Americans responding to aggression from Afghanistan and Iraq is analogous to Russia invading Ossetia? You have to forget a lot to make the comparison. I will be happy to remind you of the differences in detail.
Mahmood: “Do I condone Russian actions in Georgia? Of course I don’t. I just hope that they – unlike the States – do have an after-war scenario.”
You don’t have any criticism of Russia, either. Naturally. What a perfect illustration of gratuitous America-bashing to watch Russia invade a weaker neighbor and claim America is the true villian. The only thing America has done so far is fly food to the Georgians and demand Russia withdraw. Thank goodness the Russians aren’t bastards like us, huh?
Since this isn’t the first time Russia has invaded Georgia, it’s pretty easy to know their after-war scenario. The Soviets invaded Georgia in 1921 in much the same way they are doing now. They rounded up anyone who resisted and a lot who were just unlucky and shot them. Others they deported to the gulag, never to return. And this is a rehash of the previous Imperial Russian invasion of Geogia from the previous century. Go find a Georgian who thinks being invaded by Russia again is groovy.
It’s difficult to believe that you would pretend that Russian occupation is anything but harsh. Is there some state vanquished and occupied by Russia which has benefitted from it, whose people wish it would continue? There are an awful lot of Russian and eastern European immigrants here in America who can tell you how bad it was under Soviet rule.
It’s getting pretty easy to predict Muslim opinion on any situation: America is to blame. You don’t even need to know what happenned. All you need to know are the players. If there are any Muslims involved in any event with America, the Muslims will support the Muslims no matter how blood-soaked or evil they are. Even when America plays no part at all, as in this Russian invasion of Ossetia, then America is to blame.
It all boils down to Muslim bigotry. As Bernard Lewis observed, Muslims object to non-Muslims holding power in the world. They object most of all to the USA, the foremost infidel power, holding superpower. As Zacarias Moussaoui, the Sep 11 would-be skyjacker said, they attack America to make Islam the superpower. Once you understand this, you can predict the Muslim position on any event.
Oh, hello Steve, I missed you! mwaah!
Not. At least not in Bahrain, our king even invited all of those Jews who left Bahrain previously to come and rejoin our ranks as full citizens with full and equal rights. He even appointed a Jewess to the Court of Saint Bush presently.
The threat is implied, not overly stated. What I find quite “funny” in Mr. Bush’s speeches is this recurrent stream which he applies on others but does not apply it to his own country, much like what you do too:
Not yet. But like all things when considered historically, it too will be a minor blip in the history of the world. The trick is to learn something from it and move on.
It’s all a matter of Degrees. But the principal is surely the same. It is the sovereign power attack on another sovereign nation.
I’m looking you in the eye right now and telling you, as I have done countless times, that I do not condone the actions of those criminals who attacked the States under the guise of their religiosity. But was their action a criminal act or was it a state-sanctified, aided and abetted act of war against another sovereign nation? I know that you will say that as they were harboured in Afghanistan then it as a country must be made responsible for their actions. You might be right, Steve, but my own personal view is that the US action in both Iraq and Afghanistan is that of a bull in a china shop.
Only because it does not concern the topic at hand.
Habibi take a deep breath! Generalisations here are a buck a dozen. Calm down.
I do not stand to condone the actions of criminals regardless of what colour or sect or religion they are, as I’m pretty sure the majority of the human race – as well as the vast majority of Muslims.
Nor do we (Muslims) automatically blame America. You might like to believe this yourself, but all you have to do is check the US schools and universities and workplaces and inward investments to find out that quite a substantial number of those are Muslims or have come from Muslims. Voting with our feet (and pockets) to love everything Americana. So there is no hate there; how can there be when we do just as I have outlined above? Unless you regard our investment in America another conspiracy to control and take over the world starting with the good old US of A.
What absolute piffle. Is that the same expert whose opinion you hold so dear who didn’t set foot in the Arab world for almost half a century and the closest he might have come to it is a quickie visit to Turkey and pretends to be another Orientalist who epitomises the very essence of racist bigotry against the so called subjects and regimes he purports to be an expert in? Gimme a break Steve, at least fund an unbiased source to shore up your arguments.
You’re digging down to the bottom of the barrel there as well Steve. Give me support for this fantastic argument not from a deranged criminal and killer with a mistaken vision of grandeur than this twerp of a turd and I will give you some credence, until then, your following statement is not only particularly insane:
but downright foolish.
“The threat is implied, not overly stated.”
That’s priceless.Nice attempt to weasel out of being held responsible for being irresponsible.If you’re trying your hand a political satire, leave that to Beppe Grillo. As far as Bush-bashing, you’re a little late to the game and come across as a third-rate DailyKos or Huffington Post.
As far as threats are concerned, Nogovitsyn telling Russia’s Interfax news agency: “By hosting these, Poland is making itself a target. This is 100 per cent certain. It becomes a target for attack. Such targets are destroyed as a first priority.”
Now that’s a threat.
“These” being?
All arguments aside, Mahmood, this particular post is not one of your best. I admire you for being a thoughtful commentator, even if we don’t agree. However, I think you should take another look at the situation in Georgia and the -international- reaction to it.
It is not hypocritical for Bush to condemn Russia’s actions, as they amount to an imperialist invasion; the only reason Russia invaded was to absorb S.Ossetia and Abkhazia into Russia proper.
Is this comparable to the invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan? Not in the least, except in the naive ‘all invasions are the same’ mantra relied upon by the intellectually lazy.
You’re not intellectually lazy, Mahmoodski. I have come to expect better from you. 🙂
Och, Ethan! Welcome welcome. And thanks for your notes.
I’m afraid that I’ll have to disagree with you regarding the comparison as my emphasis is to demonstrate the hypocrisy in principle without taking into consideration altruistic motives. Hence my surprise at the pot calling the kettle black.
If we take into consideration altruism, then I do not see hypocracy on the American side. Saddam Hussein was notorious for being a genocidal dictator, and the Taleban were also cruel and capricious rulers. Should they have been deposed? There lies the controversy. (though you’d find few that would defend the Taleban!)
Georgia itself is none of these. In fact, even Human Rights Watch seems to have trouble in determining whether the Georgian army actually did as much in South Ossetia as Russia claims. Russia’s claims to the contrary, no reputable rights org has seen any evidence of ethnic cleansing by the Georgians.
Mahmood: “Oh, hello Steve, I missed you! mwaah!”
I know that you did, Mahmood. I do what I can to make your life brighter by making an appearance now and then.
Steve: “cite me Bush’s threats against Russia”
Mahmood: “The threat is implied, not overly stated.”
I think you see Bush threats in the clouds, Mahmood. There’s no chance that we’re going to duke it out with Russia in Georgia. However, it’s very likely that as a result of this new birth of imperialistic aggression that Ukraine may be welcomed into NATO. That’s the threat here, that former Soviet states will realign themselves with the West to preempt the possibility of being swallowed by a Russian empire. Again.
Steve: “Perhaps the Sep 11 attack launched from Afghanistan has gone down the Arab Muslim memory hole.”
Mahmood: “Not yet. But like all things when considered historically, it too will be a minor blip in the history of the world. The trick is to learn something from it and move on.”
Nonresponsive. Your implicit claim was that our invasion of Afghanistan was somehow illegitimate, that the provocation of the Sep 11 attacks did not justify our ousting of the vile Taliban regime and its evil Al Qaeda patron. The lessons we learned is that we can not ignore radical Islam, that the bulk of the Muslim world supports terror against America and the non-Muslim world in general. The lesson is this: Take Muslim threats against America seriously and hammer them without delay before Muslims slaughter men, women, and children in our streets and skies again.
Steve: “Mahmood, are you seriously comparing the Russian invasion of Ossetia with the American invasion of Afghanistan?”
Mahmood: “It’s all a matter of Degrees. But the principal is surely the same. It is the sovereign power attack on another sovereign nation.”
Actually, it’s a matter of quality. Afghanistan sponsored an attack that killed thousands of innocent Americans and was justly counter-attacked by America to stop follow-on attacks. Georgia has made no such attack on Russia and wishes to govern itself as it has every right to do.
I’m sure your opinion is widely held in the Arab street as many similar wrong opinions are. You should reconsider it. Simply put, America has a right to defend itself. Russia does not have right to invade Georgia or the other countries it intends to invade in the future.
Mahmood: “I’m looking you in the eye right now and telling you, as I have done countless times, that I do not condone the actions of those criminals who attacked the States under the guise of their religiosity. But was their action a criminal act or was it a state-sanctified, aided and abetted act of war against another sovereign nation? I know that you will say that as they were harboured in Afghanistan then it as a country must be made responsible for their actions. You might be right, Steve, but my own personal view is that the US action in both Iraq and Afghanistan is that of a bull in a china shop.”
Mahmood, we gave the Taliban the chance to avoid an invasion by turning Al Qaeda over to us. They refused. They did so in public announcements made on TV. That makes the Taliban overtly responsible for the attack, if there was any doubt about that before.
Al Qaeda had bought Afghanistan from the Taliban with Saudi money. The Taliban were Saudi puppets in that sense. So, yes, the Taliban supported the Al Qaeda attack on America. They foolishly believed that America would not respond, thinking Bush was Clinton. They further miscalculated that America could not win, thinking Bush was LBJ, that America was the Soviet Union.
And really, Mahmood, wouldn’t you consider that flying suicide jets into American skyscrapers is a tad irresponsible? Isn’t it odd that your criticism doesn’t fall on the Muslim mass murderers? And isn’t Islam the big bull in china shops all over the world with its global terror spree? I mean, really, Muslims riot, burn, and kill over cartoons. Is there a country Muslims have visited where they haven’t gratuitously murdered people for Islam?
Mahmood: “Nor do we (Muslims) automatically blame America. You might like to believe this yourself, but all you have to do is check the US schools and universities and workplaces and inward investments to find out that quite a substantial number of those are Muslims or have come from Muslims. Voting with our feet (and pockets) to love everything Americana. So there is no hate there; how can there be when we do just as I have outlined above? Unless you regard our investment in America another conspiracy to control and take over the world starting with the good old US of A.”
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed went to school in America, too, yet that did not demonstrate his support of America. Muslims get their education in America because that’s where the education is, not necessarily because they want to soak up some Americanism or stock up on US flags to wave. Likewise, Muslims invest in America because it is a good investment, where their money is protected, unlike their own countries.
Of course, many Muslims invest in America to provide themselves a place to run in the all-too-likely event their own rotten regimes collapse. Many a Saudi maintains an expensive New York City home they’ve never set foot in, ready to receive them should revolution overtake Saudi Arabia.
As for your other arguments, let us put them to an empirical test by applying these two rules of Middle Eastern opinion to all world events to validate their reliability:
Steve’s Dictum of Muslim Bigotry (SDOMB): Muslims will take the side of Muslims, no matter how objectively wrong or evil they are, because Islam has no moral bottom.
Malik’s Mad Muslim Syndrome (M3S): Where ever evil happens, America is to blame.
And ne’er the twain shall meet…
Except at the World Trade Center.
Or Hiroshima.
-Ibn
Thank goodness for Hiroshima, lest a greater conventional slaughter ensue. Do you have any idea how many people would have died had the war been fought to an end conventionally? Of course you don’t. You probably were taught the Japanese were innocent victims, just like the Afghans and Iraqis.
It’s hardly surprising to find you on the side of Japanese who thought it was their right to kill everyone in the way of their empire and the rule of their god-emperor. It sounds kind of familiar, doesn’t it? Pearl Harbor and Sep 11, kamikazes and suicide bombers, emperor and caliph. They kinda go together, that kind of tyrannical, anti-democratic mindset.
However, thanks for the speedy confirmation of SDOMB and M3S.
Here’s a reality check from the Georgian refugees fleeing Russian tanks: They’re thankful for America’s help.
Diana fled the Russian troops who invaded her village, saying, “They are burning the houses. From most of the houses they are taking everything. They are stealing everything, even such things as toothbrushes and toilets. They are taking the toilets. Imagine. They are taking broken refrigerators.”
So Mahmood, since you claim that the Russian invasion of Georgia is the same as the US invasion of Afghanistan & Iraq, could you provide some examples of where American GIs ran off with Afghan toothbrushes and toilets? OK, that’s a trick question. The Afghans don’t have toilets.
And how about all those broken refrigerators we evil Americans stole from the Iraqis? Oh, wait a minute. We allowed them to import MORE refrigerators by lifting all of Saddam’s tariffs, the ones where he skimmed all those billions of bucks and stuffed it in his bank.
I hear the Russkies are stealing toilet paper, too. It’s pretty pathetic when you have to conquer a neigbhoring country to get a roll of toilet paper.
In principal it is the same. In tactics they differ. I’m not very concerned about tactics and – once again – I do not condone the aggression from any side, but the principal which I am talking about here is the same. The Americans invaded on a pretence of national security, so did the Russians. America objected to the Russians doing the very thing that America did – twice and with impunity.
You won’t see that, and I really don’t expect you to any time soon, but in the odd moment of coherence, remove the “America is never wrong” glasses and you might actually become a better American!
First you claim Bush vehemently threatened Russia, later modified to implied (vehemently implied is an oxymoron worthy of inclusion in the encyclopedia of oxymorons), now you’re stating Russia invaded Georgia out of concern their national security. Even the Russians didn’t use this pretext.
“Even without the atomic bombing attacks, air supremacy over Japan could have exerted sufficient pressure to bring about unconditional surrender and obviate the need for invasion. Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that … Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.”
– United States Strategic Bombing Survey, 1946
Steve, did you give birth to CVT? Shame on you. One family member at a time please! 😉
Loki, you beat me to it.
In fact the incendiary bombing of Tokyo was more of a holocaust than either of the atomic bombings (considered separately, anyway). Japan was already a defeated nation and elements within its wartime government were already suing for peace. The atomic bombs were dropped for research reasons as much as anything else. It’s hard to find a comparable atrocity because of the implications for the species (this is a point that some of you gung-ho Stevies and nutbar Islamofundies may find difficult to grasp). Genocide is not new. Nuclear holocaust is. When Oppenheimer saw the enormity of what he’d done, the fruits of his endeavours, no work of science, engineering or strategy could help him encompass it. He scurried straight to religous scriptures. That’s how bad August 1945 was.
“I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds”
– Oppenheimer, quoting from the Baghavad Gita on seeing what had happened to Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
😮 Imagine Steve and Anne Coulter bumping uglies in the back of an SUV and then cooking up the resultant vegetable in a cracked jar in some Monsanto lab. Voila!
Sorry, Mahmood, but when you are talking principles, you are making a statement of right and wrong.
Here’s a note from Italy:
In the end, when we really need the Cavalry, the appalling, ignorant and arrogant Texan cowboy, George W. Bush, is the only one to defend the helpless, to help the abandoned, to support democracy and freedom when they are in danger.
Mahmood: “The Americans invaded on a pretence of national security, so did the Russians. America objected to the Russians doing the very thing that America did – twice and with impunity.”
The Sep 11 attacks on America were merely a pretence? So Afghanistan was an innocent country whose name we just pulled out of a hat to attack? Back here on Earth, it was pretty clear that Al Qaeda maintained and infrastructure in Afghanistan which it was using to launch attacks on America, and elsewhere. The Sep 11 attacks were not a pretence to attack, but imposes a duty upon us to attack and annihilate the source of the evil which sought to butcher more Americans by the thousands.
Likewise, Saddams refusal to abide by the surrender agreements, his attempted car-bombing of the elder Bush, his launch of hundreds of surface-to-air missiles at our jets, and his placing of bounties on the death or capture of our service personnel constituted many casus belli.
Mahmood: “You won’t see that, and I really don’t expect you to any time soon, but in the odd moment of coherence, remove the “America is never wrong†glasses and you might actually become a better American!”
You’re right. I don’t see the moral equivalence between Russia’s traditional invasion of a weaker neighbor for reabsorption into the collective and the US invasion of belligerent powers in the Middle East. You have to ignore a lot to make such a case. Perhaps those “America Is Always Wrong” glasses of yours, Model M3S, hide a lot of contradictory facts that debunk your theory.
Loki: “Even without the atomic bombing attacks, air supremacy over Japan could have exerted sufficient pressure to bring about unconditional surrender and obviate the need for invasion. Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that … Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.â€Â
– United States Strategic Bombing Survey, 1946
The USSBS for Japan is wrong in its conclusions. Compared to the rather careful USSBS for Germany, the one for Japan was rushed and suffered from bad method. They came in with preconceived conclusions and tended to cherry pick their onclusions. One of their most serious weaknesses was a lack of interpreters to question the war leaders. It was a slapdash job.
Each US service believed it alone could have defeated Japan. The paragraph above is one view of the military elephant, the view that air power alone could reduce a country to surrender, which reflects a doctrine the Army Air Force was trying to prove, in part to claim a greater amount of the post-war budget.
The truth of the matter was that it would have take a combined arms offensive to conquer Japan had the atom bombs not worked. Even as it was, when word got out that Hirohito was going to surrender, a military detachment stormed the Emperor’s palace and searched for the surrender instrument, hoping to destroy it so Japan could fight on.
The Japanese military believed that a furious counteroffensive would bloody the allies enough that they could dictate surrender terms which allowed the core the Japanese military state to survive. The two atom bombs did not budge them from this position. The military in general had this concept of gyokusai, the smashing of the jewel, in which the whole nation would die in a glorious flight, the Japanese version of Hitler’s Götterdämmerung.
Had the fight proceeded with conventional weapons, the allied air forces would have first torn up the railnet in Kyushu. Japan is a mountainous country divided into cells of population tied by railroads. It’s 65 million people could just feed themselves. However, the air forces would have stopped all rail traffic. The navy would have stopped all sea traffic. Japan would not have been able to distribute its rice. Most of the country would have begun starving, getting sick, dying.
North Korea serves as a template for Hirohito’s Japan. When North Korea endured its famine, it lost two million of its 25 million population without losing political control. Apply the same rate to Japan’s 65 million, and you get 4 million dead. That’s twenty times the 200,000 casualties of the atom bombings.
Japan relies on fishing to feed itself, which would have been impossible during the naval embargo. It’s the navy which would have cause the most casualties in a conventional war by sitting on the lines of communication to block the supply of food to Japan. By rejecting the atom bomb, you implicitly accept the naval blockade which would have killed twenty times the number of deaths that nukes did. That course is a morally inferior option endorsed only by the ignorant.
Of course, you’d have casualties from the ground invasion. MacArthur estimated about a thousand casualties per day for the first four months, over a hundred thousand. The Japanese toll would be much higher. In Okinawa, roughly 20 Japanese died for every Allied soldier, mostly civilians. Part of the problem is that the civilians were instructed to kill an American and then themselves and their families. Civilians attempting to escape or surrender were shot by the Japanese military. Japanese troops shot many of their own people to spare them the torture they felt sure would come at the hands of the Americans.
And there are all the prisoners the Japanese had orders to kill as soon as word came of an invasion of Japan. Those prisoners easily equaled the populations of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Japanese were also killing Chinese at the rate of the population of Hiroshima every two weeks. When you argue to spare Hiroshima, you are arguing to spare the aggressor at the expense of their victims.
Japan would have surrendered, but the problem is how to press them to do so and at what price. Pursuing the defeat of Japan with conventional arms would have been a vastly bloody enterprise, not just in Japan, but all over Japan’s sphere of influence where the Japanese’s most bloody instincts would have been brought to the fore. It’s a solution only for the simple-minded.
By contrast, the atom bombs prompted Japan to surrendered in mere days at a cost of 200,000 people. That’s a pretty cheap way to end a world war. The Soviet conquest of Berlin cost 100,000 dead alone.
Simply put, the atom bombs were the fastest way to end the war with the least lives lost and therefore the most moral option.
“The USSBS for Japan is wrong in its conclusions”
I’ll take your word for it shall I?
STACNBW Loki.
For the uninitiated: “Steve The American Could Never Be Wrong”
Now let the rest of the world deal with it.
Off to brunch!
I’ve read enough history to agree with a lot of what you have written about the stance of the Japanese military at the end of World War 2.
However, as I said, the incendiary bombing of Tokyo claimed more lives than either nuclear attack with conventional incendiary devices alone. It was a real shocker, what happened to Tokyo. A couple more of those in the right places would have done it, although I don’t have lunch with military bigwigs like you every day 🙂 so I can’t confirm that.
It’s the two bits below I take issue with:
Nuclear weapons have long-term implications for the species that don’t show up in some ephemeral rush job of a blitzkrieg-justification exercise nor in a wannabe hawk’s nuke-justification blog entry. You either get this or you don’t. I’m content to agree with Oppenheimer and Einstein on this one. It’s not something that military realpolitik can properly encompass. So there.
Annony,
You are underestimating the depth of Japanese fanaticism in Hirohito’s regime. Even after the atom bombs were dropped, the surrender made, and Hirohito announced that surrender, fanatical resistance continued.
A large group of citizens of Tokyo mounted a nearby hill and committed suicide en masse. The military removed the propellors from most of their aircraft to stop their pilots from mounting suicide attacks. Even so, kamikaze flights continued. The last Japanese aircraft was shot down over Japan while attacking a US bomber ten days after the surrender. Numerous Japanese soldiers fought on for decades after the surrender in places like SE Asia, Guam, and the Philippines. The last Japanese soldier to surrender did so in the 1970s. That is simply unprecedented and an illustration of the Japanese unwillingness to surrender. Annony, they were giving kindergarten students bayonet practice and distributing hand grenades to civilians with instructions to resist to the death. As the popular slogan went: ONE HUNDRED MILLION LIVES FOR THE EMPEROR!
Your claim that further bombardment of Japan would have forced a surrender is also unlikely. As General Curtis LeMay told a friend of mine at a history symposium at the Air Force Academy back in 1975, there were virtually no worthwhile targets left to bomb in Japan by August 1945.
Nuclear weapons do indeed have long term implications for humans that you do not get, which is that they have stopped the escalation of violence that has marked modern war. The overall vector of humankind has been toward less violence, believe it or not. The first five million years of human existence was marked by continual raiding which claimed a third of all males. That has been declining with the advent of civilization, even considering the world wars. That is because incessant raiding is more deadly than the occassional big war. Now, only a fraction of a percent of the human population dies from combat.
Nuclear weapons have put a stop to the big war. For example, Europe is enjoying the most peaceful decades in its long history, mostly because we guard them with atom bombs. Heck, they’re even banding together in a European Union. Try THAT a century ago.
North Korea is another example. The crazy North Korean nutcases would have poured over the border into the South for the Second Korean War long ago if America wasn’t guarding the South with nukes. I was one of the guys who would have delivered one to a deserving place up north. That kept the fighting down to the occassional border skirmish and commando raid.
Richard Rhodes, the historian on nuclear weapon development has remarked that the upward climb of violent deaths by war has plateaued with the development of atom bombs. It is a counterintuitive observation which you don’t seem to get. That is why we fought a cold war with the Soviet Union instead of a hot one.
Here is something to chew on: Had we not dropped nukes on Japan, do you think the Japanese would have been so resolutely pacifist today? Considering their former hyper-belligerence, that’s a remarkable transformation in national character, don’t you think? The long term effect of the atom bombs on the Japanese was to authoritatively convince them that their best interests were served by aligning themselves with the human race in pursuing peaceful commerce rather than setting themselves at war against all things non-Japanese.
Steve: “The USSBS for Japan is wrong in its conclusionsâ€Â
Loki: “I’ll take your word for it shall I?”
You would be wise to do so but in the case you are unwise you can read Robert P. Newman’s “Truman and the Hiroshima Cult” which tells how Paul Nitze, the head of the USSBS, cooked the report with respect to the Pacific theater. Here is a summary of his argument.
You might note that he cites the figure of 400,000 Asians and Pacific Islanders who were being killed EVERY MONTH by the Japanese outside of battle in the last year of the war. That’s twice the combined total of deaths in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In simpler terms, the America-bashers here are arguing for the Japanese killing 400K victims per month by samurai sword instead of the USA ending the war by killing 200K of the aggressors in one shocking stroke by atom bomb. You don’t see anyone here protesting the use of the samurai sword, do you?
You might also read Robert James Maddox explain how the atom bomb conspiracy theories, which hold sway in this forum, were fabricated in “Weapons for Victory: The Hiroshima Decision Fifty Years Late”. If you don’t want to read the whole book, here is an article by Maddox that summarizes the reasons why the Bombs had to be dropped.
I’m giving you these sources to peruse because, of course, you’re never gonna see them in the Muslim world, are you? It’s far easier to adopt the casual anti-Americanism of the Arab street than think for yourself or weigh things objectively. Safer, too. That bigotry which Islam demands of you is the biggest obstacle to your success.
They could have found the leaders, Steve.
I’m going to hope that your argument has merit, Stevie. You are assuming sanity is strong enough of a habit to keep us going for the next few thousands of years with weapons that are capable of destroying all humans if used by somebody with a tribal mindset.
Interestingly enough, you are agreeing with an Iranian acquaintance of mine who feels that if Iran had nukes there would be a balance of power that would calm down the Middle East and curb some of Israel’s misbehaviour. This he derived from the Arab leaders calming down after the knowledge of the existence of Israel’s nuclear arsenal. Go figure.
I *do* get your viewpoint, but I don’t believe it has long-term validity without deep changes in human nature. The Japanese hate us, really hate us Westerners deep down, you know. Nukes have pushed that down somewhere deep but it’s only frozen, not removed. Certain grudges will hang around for longer, unexpressed, unchanging, maybe building. The long term danger to collective sanity is real. It’s the collective _insanity_ that will allow nukes to be used again. So between episodes of insanity and nuclear accidents, it’s all looking bleak.
But for now I will hope that there is some longevity to the present freeze – a state of being from which something new may grow. I can do nothing else.
Anyway, regarding Russia and Georgia, America is holding others up to standards of behaviour it is not adhering to itself. This is hypocrisy. It’s not so important with everything else going on in the world, but it is a case of double standards. Since everybody is doin’ it, I’m not going to worry too much. I’m going to leave the rest of the thread to you guys who care about what those greedy, heartless fools are doing to each other yet again in the Eastern Bloc.
stupidity and ignorance really get on my nerve. Steve will you read a book or a proper news outlet (NOT FOX!)from time to time..please!!
the majority of Ossetia’s population are Russian citizens with dual nationality. Georgia with an idiot government decision for even more idiotic reasons started the attack on Ossetia’s population due to separatists elements NOT the other way round!!!
They knew that Russia is an A’hole to its neighbors just like the USA is an A’hole to the rest of the world..the blame for the killings is on both sides of the conflict here.
And stop defending every fart the USA made throughout history. yes they saved the day in WW2 but bombing civilians with an atomic bomb and saying it was necessary is a big pile of BULL DROPPINGS!! civilians were targets not casualties and if you defend that then you stand in the same line with the 9/11 attacks as those targeted civilians as a means to rid their countries from their “enemies” the USA!!
You factually-blind moron..
and btw.. the Taliban and Al Qaeda are living happily around the Pakistan-Afghanistan border.. why the shit arn’t your US troops there???!! they scared from a few mountains and caves??
Just in today: Afghanistan’s President Hamid Karzai condemns a US raid which officials say killed at least 70 civilians.
yeah that’s how strong and brave the sick amercian troops are..civilains!! let’s just stay in our Kabul hotel mess it up and just wait for the Taliban fighters to come to us..the Pakistani border is so far away and besides its no fun!!
pathetic morons..
ditto
The United Nations Development Programme report Knowledge in the Arab States, written by Arabs about Arabs states:
Despite a rich and time-tested intellectual tradition, and notwithstanding the region’s tremendous human capital, the potential of people in the Arab region is constrained by barriers to knowledge acquisition, dissemination, production and utilization. This was the message of the Arab Human Development Report 2003: Building a Knowledge Society, and also the motivation and foundation for the upcoming series of the Arab Knowledge Report. Forward-looking Arab leaders recognize that their countries need to regenerate, enlarge, organize, and deploy their knowledge capabilities in order to prosper in a world of globalized information, technology and markets. UNDP supports them in these efforts.
If anyone doubts these barriers exist, or needs evidence of them, you need only read threads like this.
Why, with the trillions in revenue that have flowed into this region in the last ten years, have no foundations for world-class universities been laid?
Why, with the trillions in revenue that have flowed into this region in the last ten years, have no foundations for world-class universities been laid?
because the arab dictators who you give so much money weapons and support to are a barrier.. because you with your selfish interest and consumption of third of the world resources to feed your unsustainable consumer lifestyle are the number one barrier.. why don’t you go home and stop your corruption of the world..
but the question is…why in a free democracy with the trillions in revenue and world-class universities the majority of US public are so bad at maths and geography?
because the arab dictators who you give so much money weapons and support to are a barrier.. because you with your selfish interest and consumption of third of the world resources to feed your unsustainable consumer lifestyle are the number one barrier.. why don’t you go home and stop your corruption of the world..
This reads like A Study in Social Pathology: the aggrieved Arab.
so sad, I really feel your pain.
This thread was supposedly about Bush and hypocrisy. Imagine if he really wanted to be a hypocrite, you know, supposedly standing up for freedom of speech,but not liking what’s written about him on blogs,so he then pulls the plug on the root servers that permit this blog to reach… (for those of you who don’t believe he could, yes ICANN)
The funny (as in ironic)thing about the criticism of Bush is the reality that many Bahrainis (and other Gulf subjects) actually help to vote him into office.What you say? Oh yes, how many of your fellow subjects were born in the US (while parents were at school) and whose parents made sure to get them US passports (entitling them to rights as if they arrived on the Mayflower)and now they exercise those rights more readily (and more meaningfully)than they can at “home”.
STII: “stupidity and ignorance really get on my nerve.”
I imagine it’s painful for you to look in the mirror, then.
STII: “Steve will you read a book or a proper news outlet (NOT FOX!)from time to time..please!!”
I can’t help but notice that folks who don’t read books nor keep up with the news are fond of ferocious denunciations of those who do and come to different conclusions. Your furious feral arguments are unoriginal and boring.
if the bush family really wanted to get bin laden, they would have stopped buying airports and oil companies together, and I’m quite sure they would discuss the matter over dinner one day.
all this information is on the internet, go look for your self.
sowhat: “because the arab dictators who you give so much money weapons and support to are a barrier..”
Yes, Arab Muslims can not organize themselves into anything better than a dictatorship, but America is to blame. M3S, again.
However, you are quite right that your leaders are to blame, at least in part. They certainly don’t encourage any independent thinking, do they? But then, neither do your Muslim clerics. They’re absolutely against thinking for yourself. And those clerics have popular support. Is America supporting them, too?
The fact is that Islam snuffed out independent thought centuries ago, long before America was invented, long before the New World was discovered, and your entire civilization is the worse for it. You have been in intellectual decay since the 13th century when Islam closed Muslim minds and wrote hundreds of fatwas to stop any thought from the outside getting in. Muslims are their own worst enemy in that regard.
And it’s a long-standing tradition to blame the Other for your failures, isn’t it? Where has that gotten you? You can’t solve a problem unless you recognize it.
sowhat: “because you with your selfish interest and consumption of third of the world resources to feed your unsustainable consumer lifestyle are the number one barrier.. why don’t you go home and stop your corruption of the world..”
More Muslim propaganda. The reason we consume more than the rest of the world is that we produce more, far more, because our system of democracy and capitalism is better than yours, which keeps you in poverty. That’s why we export so much to the rest of the world, unlike the Middle East, which would like to be as rich and successful as America. How do you like those American iPods and blockbuster movies and software and polio vaccine and enhanced crops? Quite a bit, it looks like. By contrast, what product of Muslim genius is in demand by the world? Nothing.
That’s not to say that I don’t have some admiration for the cunning spin you put on the failures of the Muslim world. When your culture keeps you yoked to failure so that there is no chance of ever living the full life of Westerners, it must be somewhat soothing to express contempt at the “unsustainable consumer lifestyle” of America. If you can’t be rich, the next best thing is to hate the rich, huh? It sure beats working to be rich.
The reason why America seems to be everywhere is that we have been invited. The world likes our culture, our products, ourselves, our system of government. We don’t have to plant bombs on trains or smash jets into skyscrapers to compel people to buy our way of life, like Muslims. People around the world can’t get enough of American stuff.
We don’t have to threaten anyone to build a McDonald’s or KFC in a foreign land. They want to build them to serve customers who want their products. We don’t need to take foreigners hostage to force them to watch the latest Batman movie. They mob the ticket offices, cash in hand. We don’t need to sell most people on the advantage of democracy and individual liberty. The only argument most foreigners have is how to incorporate local customs into it. By contrast, there is no world desire to live in a Sharia totalitarian state run by fascist mullahs, which sane people regard with contempt.
Speaking from the big easy chair of the American consumer lifestyle, I can tell you without reservation that it’s great. Far from unsustainable, it’s getting better every year. I can hardly wait to see what new thing America dreams up next that will make my life even more easy and enjoyable than it is now.
The sorry fact of the matter is that you could be just as wealthy as Americans, as Europeans, as Japanese. You have the same brains and work ethic. The things blocking your path to a better life are your governments, your religion, and your culture. It is you who is stopping you from living the rich lives of the West. Not America. Not Crusaders. Not Zionism. Not Santa Claus. You.
all this information is on the internet, go look for your self.
So what.Shaykh Ibn Baaz, former Grand Mufti of KSA, issued a fatwa that the Earth is flat.This information is on the internet, go look for your self. Does that make it correct?
Eyad: “if the bush family really wanted to get bin laden, they would have stopped buying airports and oil companies together, and I’m quite sure they would discuss the matter over dinner one day. all this information is on the internet, go look for your self.”
Yes, it’s there along with the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and the Truther screeds and the JFK conspiracy theories and UFO cults.
STA, yes that’s right, everything is a myth so is the US Israel relations, and the fact that Osama is still not imprisoned, and no WMD found in Iraq and that’s just the tip of the berg.
The Russians and Arabs are not any better anyway, and as far back as you can go in history, mankind always killed, lied and cheated; only deference is that you can see some clues in this developed time.
It’s always about money, always been and always will be, the same rat race, some rats are only a bit smarter.
for the record, I agre with you on almost everything you said up there.
Just like the rest of your imagination and perception of the world it is out of touch with reality.
yeah.. truthful, logical, and moral arguments are always a party spoiler for morons like you.
Though you have to be commended this time for not being the usual moron you are in responding to the facts with your fictional reality. however your always welcome to get back to your moronic shenanigans as we’re quite used to that now.
typical bigotry and hate speech. we’re used to that too from the americans who were not brought up well by their mothers. your bigotry and hate is why the rest of the world not just muslims burn your flag everyday. anyway fyi dont go too far with your made in america fantasy..you consume a third of the world resources becaue you want to live a life you can’t afford.. the ipod your talking about to was made in china, the jeans you’re wearing is probably made in Indonesia by cheap muslim labour (muslims make my american clothes..gasp!) does islam prohibit creativity? no it is always dictatorships and super powers that do so..iran ,public enemy no.1, and agains all economic and international sanctions has its own publishing industry, movie industry, automotive industry, eletronics industry with their own domestically made mobile phones computer’s etc they’re not world class nor exported. why? becuase freakin american bigots prohibit muslims from producing and competing in the world market unless they work as slave labor like the rest of the third world.. coming back to the initial primes of this post… americans are no.1 hypocrites!
• In the United States, we have less than 4% of our original
forests left.
• 40% of waterways in the US have become undrinkable.
• The U.S.has 5% of the world’s population but consumes 30% of
the world’s resources and creates 30% of the world’s waste.
by the secret mulsim leftie annie leonard
“So, my country’s response to this limitation is simply to go take someone else’s! This is the Third World,
whichâ€â€some would sayâ€â€is another word for our stuff that somehow got on someone else’s land. So
what does that look like?
The same thing: trashing the place….And what about the people who live here? Well. According to these guys, they don’t own these
resources even if they’ve been living there for generations, they don’t own the means of production
and they’re not buying a lot of stuff. And in this system, if you don’t own or buy a lot of stuff, you don’t
have value.” nearly quoting steve the moron there..
for more facts that right wing morons like steve are unable to comprehend or read CLICK and CLICK
CVT – no it doesn’t. Neither is the claim. He never issued such a fatwa. Own goal, but but the point you were making about the accuracy of data is correct.
Steve,
Another great presentation. You have reinforced my long standing views that nuclear weapons are one of the greatest inventions of mankind.
They not only speeded up the end of one long and bloody war but they prevented many others. The world is far a safer place with them. Thanks heavens the nation which has the most of them i.e. the US, is the most generous of all.
The US now is almost in the same position Rome was 2,000 years ago in being the dominant unrivaled world power. Similarities end there though. Rome did not allow smaller weaker nations to live by its side. It crushed them, sometimes for ever. Think of Carthage! It is still in ruins 2,000 years on! Compare its fate with that of Japan. Within a decade or so it became the second richest country on earth. Would Rome have allowed that? No. Would another nation have allowed it? Not certain.
The atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were like blessings in disguise. They brought the war to an abrupt end. Yes 200,000 lost their lives immediately but that number pals into insignificance in comparison with the number of people who would have died had a land invasion of mainland Japan took place.
Think of Dresden! It was almost completely destroyed by conventional weapons on the nights of 13 – 15 February 1945 by British and American bombers. The numbers of people killed is now put at 40,000 but at the time it was widely believed to be more like 250,000. More than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined! Did that make Hitler surrender? No. Conventional weapons meant three more months of total mayhem. Imagine the number of people who would have survived had the Americans had the bomb ready then?
Salman;
“The USA would not interfere with another countries business if it had no money to make out of that country or benefit from it. “
That is a ridiculous thing to say. Kosovo does not have any oil does it?
“Why has America not interfered in the conflicts in Africa and tried to save people from genocide, poverty and suffering?â€Â
Actually America has but let me ask you a simple question; why should America interfere? Why not you? It is your religious duty to help your brethrens afterall!
Anonny,
“The atomic bombs were dropped for research reasons as much as anything else.â€Â
What a pathetic thing to say.
What would you have done? More conventional bombing of Tokyo perhaps?
But then you had answered yourself;
“the incendiary bombing of Tokyo claimed more lives than either nuclear attack with conventional incendiary devices aloneâ€Â
It is clear that you are talking nonsense.
Pathetic? More emotive crap from you? Who are you and what are you doing here?
It’s true. The incendiary bombing of Tokyo did claim more lives. GO AND DO SOME RESEARCH. DO YOU EVER DO THAT?
I’ve also made the point that nuclear weapons have long-term implications for the species. You don’t get that. It’s obvious. Strontium 90 means nothing to you. Plutonium means nothing to you. You’ve come here with nothing but pro-America rah-rah and insults. Thats’ it. Again, what are you, you gutless little yapper? What is your interest in this forum?
To be petted by Steve once in a while? Like you, I just can’t see any point to this guy and I would advise you to just ignore him. He’s just a little troll.
STA “The reason why America seems to be everywhere is that we have been invited.”
The same way you were invited to Hanoi, Vietnam; and Fallujah, Iraq
Sorry Mahmood but he/she/it gets on my nerves. Honestly, as soon as it comes to certain political issues, the same old anonymous, disinterested and detached (but noisy) trolls come out of the woodwork and start twitching and tapping their keys. What on Earth interests them about Bahrain, when it’s obvious they hate Arabs and Muslims so much? They come, they spit out hate, they leave. Why?
At least Steve is a genuine person. He’s the kind of antagonist whom one can learn from because he’s not bullshitting you about who he is (Well, that’s what I believe). But these ones who log in with silly initials or numbers – what are they? Borg units?
And when they make some silly blunder about “Hijazi” Arabs or some item out of textbook history from centuries ago it’s almost as if they are in front of their computer with a textbook in their hands as reference. Why?
Why can they not be honest about who (or at least what kind of person) they are or at least why they have an interest in what is written here?
Anonny:And when they make some silly blunder about “Hijazi†Arabs or some item out of textbook history from centuries ago it’s almost as if they are in front of their computer with a textbook in their hands as reference. Why?
A hater and a bigot like steve is just that.. whether anonymous or not these charlatans should not be respected for spreading hate nor supported in any way.
there is nothing “genuine” about these types apart from their genuine bigotry and hate towards arabs and muslims.
there is nothing to be learnt from them except what not to be as a human being.
Ethics Against Hate…where??
Anonny,
Why get angry and abusive? There is really no need for that.
I did my research; more people died in Tokyo because of the bombings than in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. That only proves my point.
I must admit one thing though; yes I did not know anything about Strontium 90 or Plutonium. Perhaps this is something that I could learn from you about, for a change!
I had told you before in an earlier “debate”, which incidentally you never completed, that it is not important, at least here, as to who I am.
Why I am here? Well to learn, make friend and have a little laugh. Sadly, it seems I am making some enemies instead. That was never my intention and will go away if that is really the case.
I never thought it was a condition for participating in this blog that one should love the Arabs and Muslims! Yes people express opposing views but it does not mean they hate the Arabs or the Muslims.
You will have to realize that there are people in this world who do not share your values and it will be up to you to convince them rather than trying to shut them up with your confrontational language.
Mahmood,
You very well know that I had a number of disagreements with Steve in this blog. He has as a matter never petted me and I do not seek his approval anyway. It just turned out that I share some of the values that he upholds. That is all.
But then I have come to know you that when ever you are cornered you become abusive. It is not that I like it but I am used to your style by now.
Huh,
” there is nothing “genuine†about these types apart from their genuine bigotry and hate towards arabs and muslims.”
Would you please show me an example from this blog of any regular, not just me, that proves what you say?
Anonny
Nine asks the right question? Why get angry and abusive? Where have I written anything bigoted?
You just don’t like anyone with an opposing point of view invading your little online sandbox and pushing back.You like it when this blog is an echo chamber.
I challenged Mahmood to substantiate a written claim,something he’s unable to do.I have not resorted to invectives.
You ask:What on Earth interests them about Bahrain, when it’s obvious they hate Arabs and Muslims so much? They come, they spit out hate, they leave. Why?
Speaking for myself, I’ve been coming to Bahrain since GF was flying DC3s. I’m betting I’m significantly older than you, and if so, I’ve spent more years in the Mid East than you.
BTW, what makes initials from my name silly? Sillier than those who post using comic book characters names as aliases?
As far as the Hijazi reference, go back and read what Salman wrote, better yet I’ll post it:
The USA would not interfere with another countries business if it had no money to make out of that country or benefit from it.
The USA was even close to invading KSA when the King turned off the oil taps! Thats the really interesting part. I go into someone else’s land, start making money out off it. And if they don’t let me, I will just invade and occupy their country to make sure I have my way of life in my country, on the other side of the world.
to which I replied:
thinking like a true Hijazi Arab!
I was chiding someone who cannot, or will not, try to understand what someone 6500 miles away was thinking, or trying to understand what motivates another culture of people. Referring to the Hijazi harkens back to the caravan raiding past, when only you acted in your narrow self-interest.
Anonny: “At least Steve is a genuine person. He’s the kind of antagonist whom one can learn from because he’s not bullshitting you about who he is (Well, that’s what I believe).”
Anonny, this is quite possibly the nicest thing anyone has said about me, at least in this forum. Where do I send the roses?
huh: “A hater and a bigot like steve is just that.. whether anonymous or not these charlatans should not be respected for spreading hate nor supported in any way. there is nothing “genuine†about these types apart from their genuine bigotry and hate towards arabs and muslims.”
When your Islam defines America as Satan, your mosques collect money to make war on us, your clerics recruit terrorists to kill us, your pious Muslims kill Americans by the thousands for your bloodthirsty religion, and you celebrate that mass murder, then you justly deserve the strident criticism I deliver. Change that murderous doctrine and its acompanying behavior and my opinion of Muslims will change accordingly.
When Muslims flew jumbo jets into New York City, did you think it would elicit admiration? Learning what is preached in mosques, what is written in the Koran, the number of Muslim terror plots in motion over the last seven years has been one long Islamic horror show.
However, to be fair, when I was in Egypt I did not see a hint of any of this. I’ve never been to a more polite and gracious country. I was love bombed by the kids when they found out I was American. I got not one sour look in Egypt, while in India I got a few. I was very struck by the honesty of the Egyptians I met. So that does rebut my conception in a way unexplained to me. Then, on the other hand, my Cairo hotel was better guarded than any military base I’ve seen, so somebody in Cairo hates us.
Mahmood: “To be petted by Steve once in a while? Like you, I just can’t see any point to this guy and I would advise you to just ignore him. He’s just a little troll.”
I strongly object to this characterization, Mahmood. You have met me. I am not little.
For someone who is advising others to ignore me, we agree on more things than you would ever care to admit. Don’t worry, Mahmood. I will keep your guilty secret.
STII: “why? becuase freakin american bigots prohibit muslims from producing and competing in the world market unless they work as slave labor like the rest of the third world.. coming back to the initial primes of this post… americans are no.1 hypocrites!”
The reason why Muslim countries do not create wealth like the USA is that they are not organized to succeed. In Egypt, it takes something like 1200 steps to register a business over much of a year and months of pay. You have to hire a guide to walk you through the process. In America, it takes less than a day and less than a day’s pay to register a business.
Small businesses are the little engines that create wealth. If your country hinders their production, it will remain poor. There are other reasons, such as ambiguous title records to land and undeveloped corporate law. All of these reasons are completely under your control. Evil Americans are not making you organize yourselves so that it’s impossible for an honest man to run his own legal business. However, it’s so much easier to blame The Other for your screw-ups, isn’t it? Far easier than fixing them, huh?
I have to say i totally agree with Nine, it’s all your fault Anonny…….
i mean who in his right mind would converse with a madman (except if he really has nothing better to do or really really drunk)……
the guy stated clearly that, and i’m quoting, “it’s his long standing views that nuclear weapons are one of the greatest inventions of mankind.”
case closed, how could you talk to someone like that and why?
what he said can be accepted in only two cases, if he was an evil warlord who somehow decided to pay this humble site a visit, or he has a satanic cult somewhere and he worships the devil……and either way i think it would be safest to keep clear because if you piss him off he can send his evil minions on your track or cast an unholy curse on your poor soul……..
*careful! if he says he wants to be your friend it is probably to lure you you somewhere*
typical futile debate whether the post was originally about politics or apple pies it ends up being about amercians vs arabs/mulism/the world and a lot of hate speech.
STA = Nine ? doesn’t really matter though.
STA = Clicks x Web Ads = $$$ for mahmood.tv
every hate forum is a popular click magnet.. it is ironic though that mahmood.tv is one of them being the home of the code of ethics against hate with a title of attempting to bridge the cultural gap!
Al-Azhar University, ya wry skank.
If you like, you can help me wrap up the shit-in-a-shoebox Xmas gifts I’ll be sending to Bryzynski, Cheney, Feith, and a couple more of my favourites.
Och, it wasn’t you I was referring to, my concerned friend, but it was rather your fawning stooge!
You set the pattern, calling my words “pathetic” etc. This is not abusive?
Every time, you take one small piece from what I’ve written and attack it, ignoring the rest of what I’ve read. As far as I’m concerned you can stop nipping at my ankles and go away.
I’m giving you the benefit of repeating a point ONCE AGAIN: In a region of the world buffeted and worse by hegemonistic superpowers, you sing the praises of the atomic bomb. You’re safe behind your screen. I have family here. I’m angry because you can adopt your sanctimonious, clueless elementary school-teacher tone and sit blithely unaffected by a damn thing you’re prattling on about.
Take your detached demagogic crap elsewhere. Please. We deserve better.
I live, work, play, sleep, wake up with, suffer with, go to weddings, birth celebrations and funerals with such people. I’m doing what you say 24/7. Now I _know_ you have no idea. Could you practice what you preach for even an hour? I wonder.
Musharaff is gone, and one bomb last week killing 45? and today a machine gun attck on the US Ambassador, yuppers, Paki problems left with the evil Musharaff
Anonny: “I’m giving you the benefit of repeating a point ONCE AGAIN: In a region of the world buffeted and worse by hegemonistic superpowers, you sing the praises of the atomic bomb. You’re safe behind your screen. I have family here. I’m angry because you can adopt your sanctimonious, clueless elementary school-teacher tone and sit blithely unaffected by a damn thing you’re prattling on about.”
Hmmm. I think the Middle East does plenty of its own buffeting. Most of the outside world’s intervention is driven by that.
While I’m not quite ready to sing the praises of the atom bomb, I might have done so were I an infantrymen with orders to storm the beach at Kyushu for the invasion of the Japanese home islands. Given release from such a ticket to grievous wounds or death, the atom bomb must have seemed a deux ex machina to GIs gathering in the Pacific for Operation Downfall. Perhaps to many Japanese too.
You might consider that American atom bombs calms down your part of the world considerably as well. I imagine that having an American presence on two borders subdues the mullahs aggressive intentions considerably. The certainty that an Iranian atomic attack would receive an atomic reply from a well-stocked American arsenal with amazingly accurate delivery vehicles must give the mullahs pause, as well. Maybe there are some sane Iranians who don’t want to meet the Hidden Imam just yet in a blaze of nuclear glory.
You might consider that the presence of overwhelming US power makes your world far more safe than you could ever make it yourself.
And don’t forget to mail that thank you note you’re undoubtedly writing.
Mahmood: “To be petted by Steve once in a while? Like you, I just can’t see any point to this guy and I would advise you to just ignore him. He’s just a little troll.â€Â
Steve: “I strongly object to this characterization, Mahmood. You have met me. I am not little.”
Mahmood: “Och, it wasn’t you I was referring to, my concerned friend, but it was rather your fawning stooge!”
Well, then, my faith in your generousticity is restored. Obviously, what we have here is a failure to communicate. When so many insults are being flung, it’s hard to read which one has my name on it.
That said, I’m rather fond of my stooges and don’t like to see their delicate sensitivities bruised. I like to think of us as one Big Stooge Brotherhood, fighting the good fight to spread stoogism throughout the world. Maybe one day the whole world can be ruled by One Big Stooge. It’s a crazy dream but there it is.
Sadly, I note that you lack stooges of your own, fawning or otherwise. Jealousy does not become you, Mahmood.
Steve: “Anonny, this is quite possibly the nicest thing anyone has said about me, at least in this forum. Where do I send the roses?”
Anonny: “Al-Azhar University, ya wry skank.”
No kidding. We passed Al-Azhar in the middle distance. The guide pointed it out. I would have liked a closer look.
Anonny: “If you like, you can help me wrap up the shit-in-a-shoebox Xmas gifts I’ll be sending to Bryzynski, Cheney, Feith, and a couple more of my favourites.”
Of course, I’d be delighted to help. They’re all having a sleepover at Barack Obama’s house in Chicago, house-sitting while he’s outa town at the Democrat Convention, toasting marshmallows in the backyard and making s’mores and telling ghost stories around the campfire. Just send it there addressed to “Conspirator with the Pentagon Bomber” and I’m sure it will get to the right person. May I recommend you light it afire on the porch before you ring the doorbell?
Hope that helps.
Damn, discovered.
But I wish you very good luck with your BS Brotherhood, you really do deserve each other!
Mahmood,
You invite people to debate you only for you to snap up and unleash your bitter tongue at them the moment they put you in a corner. So much so for your hospitality!
As CVT has said “You will like it when this blog is an echo chamberâ€Â. Thanks for the ride anyway.
Vile,
You have the perfect name for it fits you well. I have made my arguments and rested my case. Where is yours? Obviously, you are too shallow to make it.
Anonny,
Yes you deserve better and I am going away. O I could almost hear the predictable response; go to hell etc etc. Save your effort. I won’t even read it.
Salman,
I forgot as to how many times I posed questions to you which you could not even attempt answering. I advise you dear to free your soul from the views that you can not even defend.
Ibn,
We had our differences but it was a joy talking to you.
Steve,
You are a true gentleman and I shall miss you.
Bloggers’ Code of Ethics
Be Honest and Fair
Bloggers should be honest and fair in gathering, reporting and interpreting information.
Bloggers should:
Identify and link to sources whenever feasible. The public is entitled to as much information as possible on sources’ reliability.
Make certain that Weblog entries, quotations, headlines, photos and all other content do not misrepresent. They should not oversimplify or highlight incidents out of context.
Distinguish between advocacy, commentary and factual information. Even advocacy writing and commentary should not misrepresent fact or context.
Admit mistakes and correct them promptly.
Abide by the same high standards to which they hold others.
How many of these were broken in the authorship of this thread? I would suggest all were broken.
When the subject of the thread is someone easily vilified, it is easy to overlook.
When it is safe to assume the readers of the blog didn’t see news reports themselves, then this becomes the truth.
The end justifies the means.
You’re in over your head,Mahmood.
Best to stick with threads about plants and the banalities of life in Bahrain.
Nine, Nine, Nine,
You surrender too easily. Whatever gave you the idea that blogging would be fair or that your opponents in debate would concede anything to you? Fighting the good fight is reward enough even if the whole world is against you.
And please, don’t complain to me about Mahmood snapping at you. Heck, Mahmood kicked my butt off this blog. I was out there in the cold, sharing a park bench with Malik! Talk about a bitter fate. Then, the next thing you know, Mahmood and I are having drinks in Washington and he’s begging me, BEGGING ME, to come back to his blog. At least, that’s the way I remember it. So, what the heck, I gave in to the Mahmoodski’s charm, the big lug.
You haven’t even been kicked off this blog and you’re complaining it’s too rough!? Sheesh! Pick yourself up, brush yourself off, and get back in the game. Put your helmet on this time.
Cute!
CVT and Nine, please form a queue to kiss my ass.
Oh and Stevo, that was a nice one. That diet coke must have gone to your head! Be careful of what you imbibe next, you might very well start thinking that you are Gengis Khan next 😉
It’s pretty obvious I’m argumentative. I always wait for Steve’s posts and that gratifying feeling of exasperation. He’s the guy we love to hate in this here sandbox, you know. An American supporter of American foreign policy – grrrr!
Oh, are those your personal initials? I’m sorry, I was out of line. I don’t understand the comic book bit.
Just cut this Hejazi ca-ca and I’m sure we’ll be fine, cvt. Bahrain has a rich culture and is connected to many historical threads. I know it looks a dusty mess nowadays but I’m sure you come here for some kind of reward. You shouldn’t be so uncharitable to people here if you’re benefiting in some way. That’s just not cricket.
Oh, and as for
you should tell this to the American government ;^) Or Halliburton. Or Blackwater. Or to the gentleman whom I’ve quoted below
“Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy.” – Henry Kissinger
STACNBW: I can’t help but notice that folks who don’t read books nor keep up with the news are fond of ferocious denunciations of those who do and come to different conclusions. Your furious feral arguments are unoriginal and boring.
DIB: huh??….
I’d be willing to concede that in the past, may have denounced some of us “less” than ferociously, but that’s as far as I go.
Different conclusions? Steve, over the five plus years you’ve been trolling on this blog, you’ve had the EXACT SAME conclusion to every single topic of discussion. Namely, Red America shits gold while Muslims, Arabs and their liberal “enablers” are out to destroy civilization and send it back to the stone age.
Quite frankly, the rest of us are tired of being your scapegoats for you to project your own insecurities on to.
Jesus H Christ! What is is with you conservatives and your obsession with Ancient Rome? I myself, have nothing but comtempt for the Roman oligarchs who lived one of the most decadent lifestyles known in history.
Guess that happens when you’ve been raised by wolves. When you get to being concerned about more than your bruised egos, give us a call…
DIB: “Different conclusions? Steve, over the five plus years you’ve been trolling on this blog, you’ve had the EXACT SAME conclusion to every single topic of discussion. Namely, Red America shits gold while Muslims, Arabs and their liberal “enablers†are out to destroy civilization and send it back to the stone age. Quite frankly, the rest of us are tired of being your scapegoats for you to project your own insecurities on to.”
First, DIB, glad to see you reappear. I figured you had disappeared into marital bliss by now.
However, I see you remain your same hyperbolic self. I’m very happy to defend America from the many slanders flung at it. While the Stone Age is an age too far to which even Muslims wish to regress, it is undeniable that the Muslim doctrine of fighting the world until it submits to Sharia rule seeks to drag the world back into the Dark Age.
For the week of Aug 16 – Aug 22, there were 44 attacks by despicable Muslims jihadis which killed 370 people and seriously wounded 413.
The month of July saw 200 Muslim jihadi attacks in 22 cuntries that killed 926 people and wounded 2075 of five different religions.
That is all part of the 11,745 innocent people slaughtered by Muslims since the Sep 11 attacks. That in turn is a small part of the huge toll of slaughter that Islam has wreaked on the world since its inception as part of its doctrine of perpetual war against non-Muslims.
So, yes, you are quite correct that I see that grand jihad of Islam as a campaign against civilization, an attempt to remake the world into the desert from which Islam sprang.
Ow Gawd.
Steve,
No I won’t be coming back. My chin is not as strong as yours! I am back only to thank you for your encouragement to me and to encourage you to go on trouncing those hypocrites; American bashers and shy Alqaaida sympathizers.
As for Mahmood, well I won’t say anything bad about him knowing how bad he can be but I am not surprised he begged you to stay. He probably agrees with much of what you say but he can not say it himself. No he is not a coward but he is a realist.
You take care OK? Who knows we may bang into each other somewhere else!
Ow Gawd!
I think rednecks have a very dense membrane around their brain.
Nine,
Mahmood is not the bad guy you’re making him out to be, though he does have a temper. Most of the time, he’s pretty calm though he does get excitable from time to time. You know, you don’t have to agree with your friends. Some friends of mine are downright disagreeable in many points but that puts the salsa in life.