New Islamically sanctified energy drink announced

عالم سعودي يجوّز شراب بول الإبل

قال المستشار القضائي بوزارة العدل السعودية الشيخ عبد المحسن العبيكان في تصريحات نشرت أمس (الأحد)، إن شرب بول الإبل جائز ‘’وليس فيه أي محظور شرعي’’ إذا كان لعلاج التهاب الكبد الوبائي.

ونقلت صحيفة ‘’المدينة’’ أمس عن العبيكان قوله إن ‘’شرب أبوال الإبل وألبانها مفيد جداً، وثبت في الطب الحديث أنه علاج لوباء الكبد’’، مضيفاً أن ‘’المعروف والمجرب أنه يخلط البول بالحليب’’

Al-Waqt :: 5 March, ’07

and it’s called Camel Piss!

No no.. I’m not kidding! Muslims are allowed to drink camel piss to their fill! And according to the Saudi “scientist” (aka cleric) Shaikh Abdulmohsen Al-Ubaikan, it’s therapeutic too.

Camel pissing

Take THAT Red Bull! They must be pissing their pants right now that they know that their market is about to dry up in Saudi, possibly their largest market in the Middle East.

The proviso though, says the legal consultant in the Saudi Ministry of Justice, is that it could be used to treat a liver disease and there is nothing wrong with that as far as the Shari’a is concerned.

The knowledgeable gentleman (it seems that he has partaken a few liters himself of the good stuff) carries on and advises his followers that “it has been proven through modern medicine that drinking camel urine and milk is very beneficial and that they cure a liver disease. Custom – he says – suggests mixing camel piss and milk together and drinking the resulting concoction.

I didn’t know that camel piss was heady stuff! Why are the decadent West bothering with their beer which has been medically proven that a person might need to imbibe several pints to levitate to the plain that the good “scientist” is permanently at? Heck, even heavy narcotics won’t get you there faster than the concoction he swears by!

Anyone for a Yellow Camel?

Bottle and sell, baby, bottle and sell! This could be the export that will supplant oil dollars!

Flabbergasted yet? Well, here’s more, he’s going on a documented hadith and incident as precedent:

Anas said, “Some people of ‘Ukl or ‘Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them. So the Prophet ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they went as directed and after they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of the Prophet and drove away all the camels. The news reached the Prophet early in the morning and he sent (men) in their pursuit and they were captured and brought at noon. He then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, They were put in ‘Al-Harra’ and when they asked for water, no water was given to them.” Abu Qilaba said, “Those people committed theft and murder, became infidels after embracing Islam and fought against Allah and His Apostle .”

حدثنا سليمان بن حرب قال حدثنا حماد بن زيد عن أيوب عن أبي قلابة عن أنس قال قدم أناس من عكل أو عرينة فاجتووا المدينة فأمرهم النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم بلقاح وأن يشربوا من أبوالها وألبانها فانطلقوا فلما صحوا قتلوا راعي النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم واستاقوا النعم فجاء الخبر في أول النهار فبعث في آثارهم فلما ارتفع النهار جيء بهم فأمر فقطع أيديهم وأرجلهم وسمرت أعينهم وألقوا في الحرة يستسقون فلا يسقون قال أبو قلابة فهؤلاء سرقوا وقتلوا وكفروا بعد إيمانهم وحاربوا الله ورسوله

SahihalBukhari.com

I have no idea if this hadith is genuine. I would like it to not be for many reasons: I couldn’t find a reference that any kind of body waste is “good for you”, I could not find it in myself to believe that the Prophet – peace be upon him – would be so cruel as to order the death and mutilation of even criminals in this manner. He was sent as a savior to mankind, not a killer. So logically I just cannot bring myself to believe any of this. It is just so against the essence of Islam that it just boggles the mind.

This hadith is narrated by Bukhari who collected and categorised thousands of hadiths, so maybe that this is the one that just slipped in unnoticed and unsubstantiated.

Or am I indulging in denial?

52 thoughts on “New Islamically sanctified energy drink announced”

  1. Oh yes, Mahmood, you are definitely indulging in severe denial there.

    Don’t you know that Islamic science is the mother of all big discoveries and progress. If you want the truth about anything it can be found in those old books.

    If you want to know more about the origin of the earth, embryologi, geology, botony, etc, etc, just look here.

    And if you want to know a bit more about how that knowledge will be revealed to the rest of the world have a look here.

    Excerpt from the recommendations of “The Institute of Islamic Sciences, Technology and Development”:

    Islamic organizations and professional associations must make “Islamization of ALL Knowledge, Education, and Careers” their primary goal, and explain and popularize this Action Plan

  2. Is one supposed to drink it straight, on the rocks, with a mixer? I will have to try it this weekend and need to know the correct method of serving. Should make an impressive spritzer tho’. Continually active bubbles with a rich bouquet. :blink:

  3. “Anas said, “Some people of ‘Ukl or ‘Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them. So the Prophet ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they went as directed and after they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of the Prophet and drove away all the camels. The news reached the Prophet early in the morning and he sent (men) in their pursuit and they were captured and brought at noon. He then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, They were put in ‘Al-Harra’ and when they asked for water, no water was given to them.” Abu Qilaba said, “Those people committed theft and murder, became infidels after embracing Islam and fought against Allah and His Apostle .”

    Well, methinks this guy has been partaking a little too much of the stuff as well. After all after reading this stuff, I would want to stay away from such an elixir less I want to run around driving camels away all day. Besides, it might have applied in the old days, but everyone knows we infidels don’t commit theft and murder for camels anymore. Mercedes maybe, but surely not camels. No way are we going to take the wrap for that stuff. :angry:

    Makes you wonder how much the good “gentleman” is getting paid to say this stuff; where can I get some of that action cause I got some spare rabbit piss out in the barn that probably cures infertility. Sorry, I was wrong; it’s baldness that rabbit piss works wonders for.:biggrin:

  4. M:

    it’s baldness that rabbit piss works wonders for.

    Mahmood, this posting is one of the funniest I have ever read.

    Rx. Just before bedtime rub 5 ml of M’s Ripe Rabbit Piss on your scalp mate for thirty minutes!!!

  5. Actually, the correct News and Bukhari stuff as set out below. The whole thing has been less than accurate reporting.

    صحيفة المدينة
    الأحد 14 صفر 1428 – الموافق – 4 مارس 2007 – ( العدد 16020)
    العبيكان يجيز تناول بول الإبل لعلاج التهاب الكبد
    محمد رابع سليمان – مكة المكرمة
    أكد فضيلة الشيخ عبد المحسن بن ناصر العبيكان المستشار القضائي بوزارة العدل وعضو مجلس الشورى أن شرب بول الإبل جائز وليس فيه أي محظور شرعي. وقد اثبت الطب الحديث أنها علاج لوباء الكبد . وقال فى تصريح لـ “المدينة” لاشك أبوال الإبل مفيدة جداً والرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم كما فى صحيح البخاري وغيره لما جاء العرنيين واستوخموا المدنية أمر لهم الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم بلقاح من إبل الصدقة وأمرهم أن يشربوا من أبوالها وألبانها وصحوا وسَمِنوا. فشُرب أبوال الإبل وألبانها مفيد جداً وثبت فى الطب الحديث أنه علاج لوباء الكبد . وحول كيفية الشرب قال العبيكان “المعروف والمجرب أنه يخلط البول بالحليب” . وكانت أبحاث عديدة أكدت أن لأبوال الإبل استعمالات متعددة مفيدة للإنسان دلت على ذلك النصوص النبوية الشريفة ، وأكَّدها العلم الحديث ، … وقد أثبتت التجارب العلمية بأن بول الإبل له تأثير قاتل على الميكروبات المسببة لكثير من الأمراض . ومن استعمالات أبوال الإبل : أن بعض النساء يستخدمنها في غسل شعورهن لإطالتها وإكسابها الشقرة واللمعان ، كما أن بول الإبل ناجع في علاج ورم الكبد وبعض الأمراض ، مثل الدمامل ، والجروح التي تظهر في الجسم ، ووجع الأسنان وغسل العيون.

    صحيح البخاري
    6 ـ باب الدَّوَاءِ بِاَبْوَالِ الاِبِلِ حذف التشكيل
    5748 ـ حَدَّثَنَا مُوسَى بْنُ اِسْمَاعِيلَ، حَدَّثَنَا هَمَّامٌ، عَنْ قَتَادَةَ، عَنْ اَنَسٍ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ اَنَّ نَاسًا، اجْتَوَوْا فِي الْمَدِينَةِ فَاَمَرَهُمُ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم اَنْ يَلْحَقُوا بِرَاعِيهِ ـ يَعْنِي الاِبِلَ ـ فَيَشْرَبُوا مِنْ اَلْبَانِهَا وَاَبْوَالِهَا، فَلَحِقُوا بِرَاعِيهِ فَشَرِبُوا مِنْ اَلْبَانِهَا وَاَبْوَالِهَا، حَتَّى صَلَحَتْ اَبْدَانُهُمْ فَقَتَلُوا الرَّاعِيَ وَسَاقُوا الإبل، فَبَلَغَ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَبَعَثَ فِي طَلَبِهِمْ، فَجِيءَ بِهِمْ فَقَطَعَ أيديهم وأرجلهم، وَسَمَرَ اَعْيُنَهُمْ‏.‏ قَالَ قَتَادَةُ فَحَدَّثَنِي مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ سِيرِينَ اَنَّ ذَلِكَ كَانَ قَبْلَ اَنْ تَنْزِلَ الْحُدُودُ‏.‏

  6. Actually, the “stuff” I quoted above is correct as provided in the references. If there is a difference, and there isn’t as far as I can tell, then outline the differences specifically for the readers’ benefits.

  7. It would be hard to run a double blind medical study of camel piss. How would you diguse it so no one could tell what they were drinking?

    If you did drink it, you’d be obligated to say it worked; how stupid would you sound if you said “I drank camel piss for two weeks and all I got was halitosis”? :sick:

    Maybe Red Bull should team up with them and come up with drink combinations using camel piss. It probably wouldn’t taste much worse than Red Bull does already. What would you use for the chaser? :biggrin:

  8. My my, bon apettite! :sick:

    (great, we now have a good reason to use the green faced smily! hehe)

    Do you think someone has a herd of camels, and it trying to put all the byproducts to good use? Next we’ll be told certain other camel byproducts taste like chocolate? Make a great face mask?

    What next!!!! :dizzy:

  9. Mahmood, Mahmood, Mahmood. Why did you post that?

    The Camel piss thing I’ve known and seen for about 18 months, at the egyptian Book Fair. And people were linning up to drink it with camel milk. I had a fight with the guy who was serving it to people. It got ugly.

    I, however, was very afraid of posting it on my blog, because I figured Muslims get called so many names nowadays, that Camel Piss drinkers shouldn’t be added to one of them. But alas, now it will!

    Oh well…

    On the bright side, I can now report the story and blame you for breaking it. :P

  10. :w00t: I live to serve, my friend, I live to serve!

    There is an Arabic saying I’m sure you heard before which says, and I paraphrase:

    Even if the silly or stupid or moronic fact is true, don’t broadcast it. All you will get if you do is our embarrassment!

    Or something to that effect.

    That wasn’t my intention; however. It just sounds me as completely against Islam on so many levels:

        We practically bathe 5 times a day to perform our prayers, and here’s something that tells us that urine is not only clean, but we are encouraged to imbibe it!
        We are told that Islam is the religion of peace, yet this hadith ascribes to the Prophet the heartless mutilation and collective punishment and murder

    I could go on, but you get the gist of it…

  11. The title of the article in Alwaqt NP misquoted its source, AlMadeenahNP, which reported that Obaikan was responding to a question as to whether there was any proscription in Islam against having camel urine for treatment. Objectively speaking, Obaikan’s answer, in the negative, was not wrong. Because, as per Islam, people could have whatever they pleased with very few, and very will known, proscriptions, e.g. alcohol, blood, pig meat etc.

    Now to quote Obaikan as having prescribed at all (as an MD doctor would), or to have prescribed camel urine in particular, for the treatment of any diseases, would be at least inaccurate.

    Nonetheless, AlMadeenah too had its title sexed up: “Obaikan allowed taking camel piss for the treatment of hehepatitis disease”, it said, as if doing so were prohibited heretofore.

    As you all know, in Islamic jurisprudence, no one can allow a forbidden, and no one can forbid any thing that is not forbidden. Being a cleric, it goes without saying that, Obaikan knows only too well that he cannot be accused or be seen as changing basic rules of Islam, by his words, if he is ever to retain any status or recognition as being the scholar that he now boasts, or is taken by others, to be.

    As for the Bukhari stuff, I tended to agree with the doubts you raise in the lead comment. But, it was necessary to dig the sources before hurling by anyone any ridiculing even of the said ‘stuff’. Doing so is necessary as a matter of good ethics of dialogue and argumentation as well as a matter of proper conduct. You will have noted, that in the Bukhari itself, it was stated that قَالَ قَتَادَةُ فَحَدَّثَنِي مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ سِيرِينَ اَنَّ ذَلِكَ كَانَ قَبْل أن تنزل الحدود which translates in English as to mean that the source of the item had said that the alleged incident happened before the Islamic penal code was instilled – as that code is known today, including Hirabah.

    As such, the incident never created law in Islam; and it never created a precedent to be followed, as precedents are in the Anglo-Saxon law until today, even if it had been true that the story in consideration actually took place during the life time of the Prophet (pbuh). Like yours, my guess too is that it may not have materialized in the first place.

    All that said, still Islamic law prescribes a very sever punishment for acts like those in the story in the said item in Bukhari – including acts of today’s international terrorism (as distinct from acts of freedom-fighting). That punishment is called Haddul Hirabah إِنَّمَا جَزَاء الَّذِينَ يُحَارِبُونَ اللّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِي الأَرْضِ فَسَاداً أَن يُقَتَّلُواْ أَوْ يُصَلَّبُواْ أَوْ تُقَطَّعَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَأَرْجُلُهُم مِّنْ خِلافٍ أَوْ يُنفَوْاْ مِنَ الأَرْضِ ذَلِكَ لَهُمْ خِزْيٌ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَلَهُمْ فِي الآخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ [المائدة : 33] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirabah (not to be taken as authority, but just for familiarization with the definitions and basic idea).

    N.B. You will have noted that the sources are different from those in your sitation and mine of the same item in Bukhari; and that, in your version, it is clearly stated that, the act was held to be the proscribed Hirabah itself, which can explain at least a great portion of the punishment assumed to have been inflected indeed – i.e. if ever. The eyes thing was taken out.

  12. Now I understand what you are going on about Haithoo. Thank you for the explanation as all of that was missing before.

    I still find that cutting off body parts barbaric to say the very least. Didn’t one of our Islamist MPs demand that this be done to “trouble makers” in Bahrain too?

  13. Well, it is good that which draws the range of punishment and leaves the specific sentencing in each specific case for the people to decide, as befits their ways of thinking and dynamic life style.

    In the matter in issue, the range is from the death penalty (by any means including lethal injection, if you would prefer to see the law states that, being the max) through crucifixion and the amputation of one hand (to the wrest) and the foot of opposite side, to deportation (permanently or for a specific period).

    All that being at the judge’s estimate but subject to strict supervision, using today’s appeal and cassation procedures, as well as the vetting and approval by the head of the state; who can reduce or annul the sentence, based on his/her further pondering of matters to be taken into consideration. How is this range of punishment any different from values that you might be holding dear?

    And it is on this basis that I invite you to consider afresh whether you would be opposed to Bahraini MP’s calling for passing such range of possible, regulated and supervised punishment, as an anti-terrorism measure.

  14. Yes yes, trouble makers! Off with their HEADS! :w00t:

    now back to mixer recipes with camel byproducts… what kinda slogans do you think camel pee products would have?

    Camel Pee – all natural goodness!

  15. In the matter in issue, the range is from the death penalty (by any means including lethal injection, if you would prefer to see the law states that, being the max) through crucifixion and the amputation of one hand (to the wrest) and the foot of opposite side, to deportation (permanently or for a specific period).

    All that being at the judge’s estimate but subject to strict supervision, using today’s appeal and cassation procedures, as well as the vetting and approval by the head of the state; who can reduce or annul the sentence, based on his/her further pondering of matters to be taken into consideration. How is this range of punishment any different from values that you might be holding dear?

    And it is on this basis that I invite you to consider afresh whether you would be opposed to Bahraini MP’s calling for passing such range of possible, regulated and supervised punishment, as an anti-terrorism measure.

    Let me ask you one thing to be sure, you actually support and condone amputation of limbs, crucifixion, and outright killing as a method of dealing with insurgency, against religion or the state?

  16. I would rather have such “barbaric” laws, than have Bush wage “modern” and “not so barbaric” wars – would you say? – in the name of anti-terrorism. Even wars which only to back fire on his own nation and allies. That is because the cost to “others” of such wars is, simply, unjustifiable under any guise or excuse.

  17. Let me ask you one thing to be sure, you actually support and condone amputation of limbs, crucifixion, and outright killing as a method of dealing with insurgency against religion or the state?

    May I answer with the question: is insurgency against religion or the state an act of Hirabah?

    For one thing, there cannot be ‘insurgency’ against religion, so even in a case where you have the law being such; you will never face the act or perpetrators of it. Because, in Islam, any one is free to choose their religion and one can cease being a Muslim altogether, without there being a punishment for conversion from Islam. Of course some scholars (too many of them actually) have it the wrong way. But this is not the issue in discussion, I realize.

    As to insurgency against the state, well, we have seen worse, all over the world. But that is not a justification. But, my guess is that it, too, would not be an act of Hirabah, per se, if today’s standards of non-violent opposition are respected – which is Islamic in nature any way (but this matter too is not the core of the notions in issue.

  18. Haytho, I’m not as educated in Islamic jurisprudence as well as you are, so I readily differ to your opinion on those matters.

    What seems to me as an illogical conundrum; however, is – if I understand you correctly – that this Hiraba law is put either as a temporary measure which dealt with a specific situation at the time of the Prophet and it is not longer valid, or it is still valid but the condition it applies to can never be met.

    If this is the case – in either situation – why bother with this law then? Why did it appear in not only a suspect hadith and more importantly in the Quran?

    All it demonstrates to me personally looking at what you have written and from the original hadith in question is that it demonstrates the barbaric nature of the Prophet! And you and I know that can never be the case, as if we submit to that interpretation, then the whole issue of Islam is on very shaky ground.

    How can it propose to be the religion of tolerance (to each his own religion) and love and beauty yet it clearly instructs the amputation of limbs simply because of a person or persons being political dissidents?

    Logically this whole situation (hygiene and brutality issues) just does not make any sense to me and I would have simply accepted our shared conclusion that this hadith specifically is suspect.

    However, when you bring an Ayah into the situation which supports part of the hadith:

    إِنَّمَا جَزَاء الَّذِينَ يُحَارِبُونَ اللّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِي الأَرْضِ فَسَاداً أَن يُقَتَّلُواْ أَوْ يُصَلَّبُواْ أَوْ تُقَطَّعَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَأَرْجُلُهُم مِّنْ خِلافٍ أَوْ يُنفَوْاْ مِنَ الأَرْضِ ذَلِكَ لَهُمْ خِزْيٌ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَلَهُمْ فِي الآخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ [المائدة : 33]

    we’re into a wholly different ball game.

    Now we’re in serious trouble, and it doesn’t matter that the degree of punishment is left to judges’ interpretation, followed by jurisprudence processes (appeal, cassation, etc) and then ultimately to the ruler for final say. You and I know that people will be subjected to this law without given the chance of appeal. How many people have had their life terminated by the sword only to be found innocent later on? Will our cry that s/he now resides in Heaven be sufficient?

    What I am trying to say is that there will always be that someone who will interpret the text literally and take it upon themselves to apply it.

    No. I hope that the context of this Quranic text just relates a historical story, rather than apply actual law in modern days.

  19. I would rather have such “barbaric” laws, than have Bush wage “modern” and “not so barbaric” wars – would you say?

    No I wouldn’t say.

    But that is not the issue at hand so let’s keep to the topic and analyse it on its own without drawing inference to what he or she did.

    To remind you, we are discussing the hadith by Bukhari specifically and the related Quranic entries.

  20. The actual statement was:

    the incident never created law in Islam

    Hirabah is a Hadd (a validly prescribed punishment) in Islam, and will remain so. It is not temporary and set the range for punishment (as aforesaid), repealing that which the Prophet (pbuh) is said to have passed and executed in the incident mentioned. You will have noted that, in the said, doubtful incident, a chain of punishments was said to have been done. In the new standard (Hirabah), set out in the Quran, all Hirabah punishments mentioned are mutually-exclusive, i.e. one prevents all the others.

    You wanted Hirabah removed from the law or avoided if it is not there already? And that only because insurgency against religion or state may not meet the definition of Hirabah! I do not see that as being a good legislative approach.

    Just because certain acts, as committed, do not or would not be deemed to represent the legal crime is not justification enough for abolishing it. For instance, manslaughter (killing where intention is either absent or cannot be proven) is not murder (killing with intent, which is proven). Can we, therefore, argue for removing murder from the law? Well, we can! But murder, per se, has always been a crime in all known human history. And for good, obvious reasons.

    On another matter you raised, I did not make a statement like the Aya supported the Hadith. What I did say, noting that in the version you sited (from I do not know which Bukhari, mine is here), is that, the fact that the acts said to have been committed were held to be Hirabah, can explain at least a great portion of the punishment said to have been imposed in that specific case. I am sorry if this should mean that the Aya supported a part of the Hadith.

    On the issues of potential misapplication of the law, which you also mentioned, it suffices to say that there is use and abuse of every thing - the law, marriage, a knife or gun, fire, rivers; etc. You cannot ban, abolish or remove any of these, or any thing else for that matter, only because it can be abused. Doing so would be unwise, counterproductive; or at least as nice as chewing gum in Singapore is a public offence, as latest as I had been following this – to me, with all due respect – funny law.

  21. Because, in Islam, any one is free to choose their religion and one can cease being a Muslim altogether, without there being a punishment for conversion from Islam. Of course some scholars (too many of them actually) have it the wrong way.

    and since u say that too many scholars have interpreted things the wrong way, and MOST people follow these scholars, I will make the logical assumption that the implemintation of the punishments we speak of will apply to situations which they should not apply to (where punishment is not even required, e.g. conversion from Islam).

    Isnt it best to just not allow them the power / opportunity to put into practice their incorrect interpretations?

    You know how it is with kids, since you cannot use something responsibly, you do not get to use it, until you are old / mature enough to be responsible!

    So, cutting off hands, death for converting from Islam… hrmm… i think we are suddenly going to have a correction in the population! I guess thats ONE way to solve overcrowding…

  22. Naddooi (thru Mahmood),

    La tablisheeni, Allah Ykhaleech! Please note that my saying that too many of them have it the wrong way is limited strictly to Hadd Alriddah (revertion off Islam).

    I understand, cutting off what I suspected to be usual sarcasm, you as saying that, until we have good judges, we should not have severe punishment in our law. With respect, I think that the better approach to legislation is to get rid of bad judges, and send suspect scholars for re-orientation. Best of all is to remove from power all corrupt, incompetent officials and ones with half educations. But is that ever possible anywhere? Mr. F. Fokoyama thought it was not only possible but also personified in libral democracies (like the USA?!). So who am I to say ‘nope!’ Would either suggestion solve Overcrowding?

  23. Does it make you drunk? :lol: maybe soon they will do a piss-cola that will compete with red bull.

  24. from I do not know which Bukhari

    click the link under the quote and you’ll find out!

    I think that the better approach to legislation is to get rid of bad judges, and send suspect scholars for re-orientation. Best of all is to remove from power all corrupt, incompetent officials and ones with half educations. But is that ever possible anywhere?

    As it is impossible and impractical to do so, it is best to treat the root of the problem, which would in this case be the legislation.

    Why are we resorting to chopping off body parts when there is a good chance of that power be abused or incorrectly applied? Better to remove all possibility of doing that and introduce other corrective measures such as prisons and other correctional facilities.

    manslaughter (killing where intention is either absent or cannot be proven) is not murder (killing with intent, which is proven). Can we, therefore, argue for removing murder from the law?

    I’m not sure where you got that inference and it is flawed logic in the first place that does not relate to the issue we are discussing.

    I am not against leveling just punishment as this punishment or even the threat of it will allow potential criminals to pause and think of what they are doing. But as we has been proven countless times in Saudi and Afghanistan, extreme punishments involving severing body parts just does not stop crime. I’m not psychologist, but I would hazard a guess that whoever had his hand/foot chopped off would hold a major grudge against society in general and might well lash out even more severely. Put that person in a correctional facility and guide him or her out of the conditions that allowed him to transgress on others properties and you might actually get a person who will benefit the society by the time he or she gets out.

    In the new standard (Hirabah), set out in the Quran, all Hirabah punishments mentioned are mutually-exclusive, i.e. one prevents all the others.

    Therefore this is proof that Islam is reviewable! The Quran effectively corrected the Prophet. Maybe we should pause at this juncture and use it to re-evaluate some of the customs and traditions which are embraced or emanated from Islam and its societies.

    You wanted Hirabah removed from the law or avoided if it is not there already? And that only because insurgency against religion or state may not meet the definition of Hirabah! I do not see that as being a good legislative approach.

    Far be it from me to demand such a thing! Call it a meek request to question and understand. I digress. I do differ with you here as I see the removal/correction/amendment of laws the epitome of good legislative approach. It proves that Islam is alive and well and moves with the times.

  25. I doubt if even Bukhari himself claimed that every Hadith he collected was genuine. Doesn’t he suggest that there is a range from “almost certainly genuine” to “pretty dubious”?

    As a non-Muslim, I would suggest that the same applies to the sayings collected in the Quran itself. But I guess that would offend those who need to cling to a sacred book (any sacred book) for support.

    As for urine, that from a healthy animal or human is sterile – at least as sterile as milk. However, there is no telling what chemicals may be in it, as the whole point of urine is that it is a solution of all the chemicals that you do not want in your body. So one sample of camel piss could be very different from another. But I think calling it “unclean” is misleading.

    There used to be an artists’ pigment called Indian Yellow which was made from the urine of cows fed on large quantities of mango leaves. It was decided that this was cruel to the cows, and nowadays a similar pigment is made synthetically. The genuine stuff was a nice bright shade of yellow.

  26. Mahmood, enjoyed your interaction with Haytho.

    Haytho, I imagine it would be a very considerable effort to standardize Hadiths’ and Qur’an interpretation in a single country, let alone over the Islamic world, unless everyone accepts a centralized standardizing body. Even then it would take many decades. But anything would be a positive start.

    The judicial branch needs to be independent of the executive and legislative branches within government to have balance. It would be important to ensure that judges by their rulings setting precedence do not create law, but only interpret the laws and the constitution of a country. In the USA we appoint judges on most higher levels for life time. The public in the USA votes for judges only on the lowest level in communities. Mid and high level judges are appointed by the executive branch for life, which is the royal family in your case. That all makes the removal of judges a very complex matter, but you have some good examples to study in both Napolionic as well as Magna Carta based law.

    Both of you are having a very good discussion about a very challenging but right topic for Bahrain’s and for other Islamic countries for that matter. I would look at the Turkish model since they must have gone through a lot of trials and tribulations along this road till today.

    The world is becoming smaller, and coming closer very rapidly with great help from more advances in communications and the Internet in good part. That also means that we all need to become more aware of others, which we, the USA need to do better, for a better future working relationship together. Your laws need to allow for that while protecting your culture.

    Best regards,

    Vic

  27. “How can it propose to be the religion of tolerance (to each his own religion) and love and beauty yet it clearly instructs the amputation of limbs simply because of a person or persons being political dissidents?”

    There’s a difference between the parts of the Koran which promote diversity of religion and the parts that promote ‘an awful doom’ to those who disbelieve.

    This rather marked dichotomy is due to Mohammed’s move from Medina to Mecca – from religious leader to political leader. As a politician, Allah became less about being godly and more about killing the religiopolitical enemies that Mohammed encountered.

    All in all, however, the Hadith in which Mohammed called for apostates to be put to death is repeated four times* (by my count) in Bukhari, which puts it up there with the ideas that are well-supported by the actions of the Prophet.

    * v.9 #17, #57, #58, #64

    The same can be said for the chopping of hands. This theme is repeated over a dozen Hadith: v. 8 #778-793.

    And Mohammed knows best, right? If he’d done something wrong, surely Allah would have corrected him, given that he not only had a direct line to Allah, but went to visit him and hang out in Jannah for a while.

  28. The Quran effectively corrected the Prophet. Maybe we should pause at this juncture and use it to re-evaluate some of the customs and traditions which are embraced or emanated from Islam and its societies.

    Cannot agree more. As a matter of fact, the Koran corrected the Prophet (pbuh) in more instances than this, single one.

    I see the removal/correction/amendment of laws the epitome of good legislative approach. It proves that Islam is alive and well and moves with the times.

    Cannot agree more.

    If resourcing courts with the right number and caliber of judges, and, necessarily, removing bad ones is not the answer; And if the answer is to remove any severe punishments from the law, instead. Then, perhaps it would be right – too – to replace an imaginary fleet of not so good aircraft with the nth model of brand new ones, but to leave the existing bunch of evidently failed pilots (i.e. with a stinking record of safety) to go on destroying new lives and the new investments; one or more casualties every now and so often.

    Correctional facilities? I agree that punishment is to be remedial, i.e. not to be imposed for revenge on the convicted ones– as is too often the case, especially as the US record of wars and foreign policy testifies; and readily. As you all know, the latest ones involved exterminating Iraq, because “Saddam almost killed my Dad!”. But more seriously speaking, I certainly have not yet come across any studies which inquired the efficacy of “correctional” facilities – so called. For one thing, it is not an un-USA fact that some criminals there love it so much inside them that they go out murdering another or more innocent victims no sooner they out. Perhaps you could mention any such studies. But then, it would be a nice research project (or a necessary one) to compare the outcome (cost/benefit – all things considered) of the efficacy of such facilities with situations either if or is though the alternative, Koranic remedies were in force.

    I could imagine the difficulties involved in devising and running such researches. I can also grant that this, rather non-linear, notion can be dismissed off hand as being foolish, redundant or stupid. However, the challenge is to respect that the possibility that there could be some sciences (and more) involved in the whole matter, which need to be mobilized/utilized/tapped or harnessed for the good of humanity.

  29. I could imagine the difficulties involved in devising and running such researches.

    Iran, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia are living examples of this research and further examples of the failure of its applications.

    If resourcing courts with the right number and caliber of judges, and, necessarily, removing bad ones is not the answer

    I’m not sure where you got this from. Reform does not happen linearly nor does it happen on exclusive spheres. Incompetent judges should be summarily dismissed or re-educated to be competent. It is also necessary to look at the oft-misapplied law and correct it too, or at least codify it in order for it to be applied fairly on similar situations without the wide delta judges impose due to internet prejudices and interpretations.

    The Family Law is just one example.

  30. So, hurrays!, we have reached full agreement, with the only thing remaining to be said, again, I guess, is that, bad application of a thing is not, necessarily, an indication that the thing, itself, is foul/sour.

    Thanks for the engagement. It was nice to have.

  31. How do you justify agreeing law is not to take revenge on the perpetrators when you’re very quran says the exact opposite ?

    Aya “5:45 And We ordained therein for them: Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth and wounds equal for equal. But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity, it shall be for him an expiation. And whosoever does not judge by that which Allah has revealed, such are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers . . .).”

    Muslim law MANDATES revenge unless the victim agrees to forego it.

    And as we all know Mahatma Gandhi said :

    “An eye for an eye will make the world blind”

    Clearly a muslim cannot avoid taking this revenge into law. Seeing as allah ordained “an eye for an eye” and everybody who doesn’t do it is “zalimun”. As having been a muslim, this now obviously makes you a kuffaar.

    Aya 9:5 “And when the forbidden months are past, slay the unbelievers wherever …”

    Haytho, Mahmood : both of you fullfill the quran’s definition of a kuffar for refusing to take revenge. So what will you do now ? If you are a muslim you are now to use all means at your disposal to kill yourself.

    Now don’t take this the wrong way. I just want to make a point. I’m not saying what point even. So take your pick. And please don’t kill anyone even if the quran demands it.

  32. That was what it was for Bani Israel. For Muslims, it isيَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْقِصَاصُ فِي الْقَتْلَى الْحُرُّ بِالْحُرِّ وَالْعَبْدُ بِالْعَبْدِ وَالأُنثَى بِالأُنثَى فَمَنْ عُفِيَ لَهُ مِنْ أَخِيهِ شَيْءٌ فَاتِّبَاعٌ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَأَدَاء إِلَيْهِ بِإِحْسَانٍ ذَلِكَ تَخْفِيفٌ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَرَحْمَةٌ فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ فَلَهُ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ [البقرة : 178]

    As per the Tafseer Muyassar: يا أيها الذين صدقوا الله ورسوله وعملوا بشرعه فرض الله عليكم أن تقتصوا من القاتل عمدا بقتله, بشرط المساواة والمماثلة: يُقتل الحر بمثله, والعبد بمثله, والأنثى بمثلها. فمن سامحه ولي المقتول بالعفو عن الاقتصاص منه والاكتفاء بأخذ الدية -وهي قدر مالي محدد يدفعه الجاني مقابل العفو عنه- فليلتزم الطرفان بحسن الخلق, فيطالب الولي بالدية من غير عنف, ويدفع القاتل إليه حقه بإحسان, مِن غير تأخير ولا نقص. ذلك العفو مع أخذ الدية تخفيف من ربكم ورحمة بكم; لما فيه من التسهيل والانتفاع. فمَن قتل القاتل بعد العفو عنه وأَخْذِ الدية فله عذاب أليم بقتله قصاصًا في الدنيا, أو بالنار في الآخرة.

    Which Translates as to mean: O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. but if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude. this is a concession and a mercy from your Lord. after this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.

  33. Tom

    Clearly a muslim cannot avoid taking this revenge into law. Seeing as allah ordained “an eye for an eye” and everybody who doesn’t do it is “zalimun”. As having been a muslim, this now obviously makes you a kuffaar.

    not everybody who doesn’t do it, but everybody who goes further and tries to do more.. (such as kill someone who has only taken an eye).. you can go up to the limit of the eye but no further. so you cannot penalize someone more than the crime they have committed. their punishment is limited to their crime

    and the word is “dhalimoon”, not with a z. and if you understand arabic and know what a dhalim is, you would understand the meaning of the aya. a problem arises when the interpreters don’t actually know the language

    and even if someone were a dhalim, that doesn’t make them a kaafir. they are two different things. if i give one of my children more than the other, or if i accuse someone wrongly, or if i treat someone unfairly, i am a dhalim, but that doesn’t make me a kaafir. your logic is flawed.

  34. @can we talk

    Ok. But you might be right about the 9:5 verse (although I’m not convinced, but it is a good argument).

    You have scarcely mentioned the previous verse. Clearly revenge (up to the same as the damage that was taken) is the law for muslims, unless mercy is granted. So in the law, an eye should be taken for an eye by default.

    And anybody who fights this being in the law, such as yourself, is a zalimun (sorry I don’t know the connection between dhalim and zalimun, but I would say clearly that a zalimun is an unbeliever, this fighting against “an eye for an eye” is not merely a misstep, it destroys your faith)

  35. I looked it up, and indeed a zalimun is not simply someone who made a mistake, but someone who does not believe. So, “can we talk” (& mahmood btw), do you believe ? Do you believe in revenge ? Anything less than full revenge is for the unbelievers.

  36. oh, no not again!

    Tom, our positions are very plain and oft repeated. Look through the archive please before you start another long and much repeated thread.

    To put it simply, no, I do not believe in revenge, and that makes me a very good Muslim.

    Now before you reply, I invite you to spend some time to read at least the top 10 most commented articles, they all deal with this theme. You can find those in the sidebar.

  37. I’ve been trying to read these comment sections. They’re very large and quite unclear. Moreover they fail to make defendable points, and like all arguments of this “islam is peaceful” sort fail to make any reference to the “holy texts” themselves.

    But, I say, I am obviously missing something. I would like to discuss with a muslim what I am doing wrong here. Any place you could point me ?

  38. Camels could help cure humans

    The following article was taken from

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1702000/1702393.stm

    Camels give many deadly viruses the hump

    By North Africa correspondent David Bamford

    Scientists from the United Arab Emirates have proposed using one of the world’s hardiest mammals – the camel – in the campaign to fight and eradicate human diseases.

    Camels are free from viruses such as foot and mouth

    A team led by Dr Sabah Jassim from the Zayed Complex for Herbal Research and Traditional Medicine has suggested that camels are highly resistant to many deadly viral diseases and their antibodies could be used for new drugs.

    Camels have a unique physiology which allows them to thrive in some of the world’s harshest environments.

    They can survive the perils of desert dehydration by storing water in their bloodstream; they can survive lack of food by holding extra fatty tissue in their humps; their milk stays fresh much longer than that of a cow.

    Natural immunity

    But as well as these advantages, they have immune systems that are so robust, they remain free from many of the viral diseases that affect other mammals, such as foot-and-mouth and rinderpest.

    The antibodies that camels carry inside them are structurally much simpler than those of humans, and Dr Sabah Jassim suggests they would be much simpler to replicate artificially than human antibodies.

    Writing in the British Institute of Biology’s magazine, The Biologist, Dr Jassim says the small size of camel antibodies would also allow them to penetrate deep into human tissue and cells that would not be otherwise accessible.

    He said the camel antibodies, by being transported from the desert sands into the laboratory test tube, have the potential to be a vital weapon against human diseases.

  39. Did Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him prescribe camel urine as medicine?

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/urine.htm

    The sections of this article are:

    1- The Hadith (narration) by the Prophet.
    2- The scientific facts about some animals’ urine.
    3- Scientists discovered cure from camels for humans.

    4- Proofs from the Noble Quran, Hadiths and Science that Camel Urine does have cure in it for humans – written by brother G. F. Haddad.

    5- Who were the Tribe of Uraina?
    6- What about the Bible’s cruelty and the slaughtering of suckling infants?

    1- The Hadith (narration) by the Prophet:

    First let us look at the Sayings (Hadiths) of our beloved Prophet that dealt with camel urine:

    Narrated Abu Qilaba: “Anas said, “Some people of ‘Ukl or ‘Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them. So the Prophet ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they went as directed and after they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of the Prophet and drove away all the camels. The news reached the Prophet early in the morning and he sent (men) in their pursuit and they were captured and brought at noon. He then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, They were put in ‘Al-Harra’ and when they asked for water, no water was given to them.” Abu Qilaba said, “Those people committed theft and murder, became infidels after embracing Islam and fought against Allah and His Apostle . (Sahih Bukhari, Ablutions (Wudu’), Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234)”

    Cutting the hands and feet of the enemy in the Bible:

    Before we proceed, it is important to know that the Bible’s Prophets too did similar punishment (cutting hands and feet of the enemy):

    2 Samuel 4
    10 when a man told me, ‘Saul is dead,’ and thought he was bringing good news, I seized him and put him to death in Ziklag. That was the reward I gave him for his news!
    11 How much more-when wicked men have killed an innocent man in his own house and on his own bed-should I not now demand his blood from your hand and rid the earth of you!”
    12 So David gave an order to his men, and they killed them. They cut off their hands and feet and hung the bodies by the pool in Hebron. But they took the head of Ish-Bosheth and buried it in Abner’s tomb at Hebron.

    Please visit: Prophet Muhammad is a Murderer for KILLING the enemies? WHAT ABOUT THE BIBLE’S PROPHETS’ MURDERS that were blessed by GOD?

    Refutation to the preposterous LIES of Jochen Katz about his Bible not containing inhumane murders from its Prophets!

    2- The scientific facts about some animals’ urine:

    A comment from sister Nicole Woods, an American young sister who embraced Islam; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with her: “I just wanted to share the news with you that in products such as tylenol or asparine (not sure which but u can check the labels), there is an ingredient called PREMARIN. Biology majors here tell me that the name stands for PREgnant MARe urIN. Of course, no one would put unprocessed urine into medication… i’m sure it’s boiled or pasteurized or something. But the ingredient is used very much in the way the prophet (peace be upon him) suggested using camel urine.. such as for headaches. oh, well, i’m sure to you it sounds disgusting… think of it next time u reach for tylenol or asparine *wink*”

    Further from a Muslimah, who works in the Medical field as a Mammographer; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with her: “Estrogen product called PREMARIN is given to postmenopausal Women. This PREMARIN is extracted from HORSE URINE. The Estrogen product is hormones given to women.”

    Further from brother Abu Adam on my Message Board; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:

    “Here is another miracle in the Hadeeth. The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in a hadeeth told someone to drink camel’s urine as a medical treatment.

    Of course the ignorant Christians love to mock this hadeeth. Even I, thought this was a strange hadeeth. But look, in America, they have been driking horse urine for a long time as a cure.

    Just like the Quran says, 41:53: “Soon will We show them our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?”

    ======================================================

    go to http://www.premarin.org for the following. (also see premarin.com)

    Premarin® stands for Pregnant Mares’ Urine (PREgnant MARes’ urINe)

    Premarin (including Prempro, Premphase, Prempac, and Premelle) is a drug made up of conjugated estrogens obtained from the urine of pregnant mares — put out in many forms (pills, creams, injections, patches, vaginal rings) and is used to reduce the symptoms of menopause in women or women who have had a hysterectomy. It is also prescribed to nearly eliminate the risk of osteoporosis (the brittling of bones) and reduce the chance of heart disease in women over 50.”

    Further from brother Abdul Hafiz; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.

    The Prophet prescribing Camel Urine as medicine:

    First of all, let us clarify the reason and story behind the prescription. Some people had become very ill at the time of the prophet, and were suffering from an unknown illness. Their bellies had swollen and they were not in a fit state. Hence, the prophet said to them, that they would find a cure in the milk and urine of a camel and so he sent them out to an area where camels were grazing. These men went to this area and drank the milk and urine. Sure enough, just like the Prophet said, they were cured and became fit and healthy.

    However, at the same time, evil thoughts entered their minds and they decided they wanted the camels for themselves. They therefore killed the owner, and made off with the camels. When news of the murder reached the prophet, he sent an envoy to capture the men, and when they were captured and brought before the prophet, capital punishment was meted out to them.

    Having read this story, what do we conclude from it? The answering islam team would have us believe that this Hadith means that drinking camel urine is permissible in Islam. This is INCORRECT. The real meaning of this Hadith is that if a person needs to consume an impure and impermissible substance as a cure for an illness, and no other reasonable alternative is available, then it is permissible. In all other circumstances, camel urine is prohibited.

    Wassalaam

    Please visit Science in the Noble Quran and Islam.

    3- Scientists discovered cure from camels for humans:

    Please visit Scientists discovered cure from camels for humans.

    4- Proofs from the Noble Quran, Hadiths and Science that Camel Urine does have cure in it for humans – written by brother G. F. Haddad:

    Please visit: Camel Milk And Urine Hadiths. The link was sent to me by brother MENJ; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.

    5- Who were the Tribe of Uraina?

    The tribe of Uraina or Bani Uraina (in Arabic) were one of the worst Pagan tribes that the Muslims had to face. Their style in fighting was to attack the Muslims during the night and kill as much men as possible. They also used all of the dirty tricks they could to (1) defeat the Muslims; (2) sneaking up on the Muslims; and (3) cause enmity between the Muslims and other Pagan tribes.

    In all of the battles that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him entered, he never killed any captive, nor did he torture any captive. Only the tribe of Uraina did it.

    The men from Bani Uraina who came to the Muslims and pretended to embraced Islam played the same tricks that their tribe always played. They pretended to be Muslims, and then when the opportunity presented itself, they would kill as much as possible and run away.

    Notice how Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him trusted them at first, regardless of the bad history that this tribe had. He never generalized, and he gave those men a chance and the benefit of the doubt.

    Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him didn’t order the hard punishment for those hypocrites because they were hypocrites. Muslims during the weak times of Islam suffered from lots and lots of hypocrites. The People of the Book (Jews and Christians) were among the worst hypocrites; “A section of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) say: Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam). (The Noble Quran, 3:72)”

    Prophet Muhammad never ordered for any of the Jewish or Christian hypocrite’s hands or legs to be cut off. He only did it to Bani Uraina, because they highly deserved it!.

    So the point is, Islam DOES NOT order the cutting of the right hand and left leg, or the left hand and right leg of any hypocrite who UNTRUTHFULLY embraces Islam and then leaves it later on, because many during the weak times of Islam embraced Islam and left it, and no such torture happened to them. However Prophet Muhammad did later on prevent the hypocrites from entering Islam and later deserting it.

    Let us look at the following Noble Verse to see when Islam would allow for the cutting of the hands and feet of the enemy:

    “The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; (The Noble Quran, 5:33)”

    If the enemy is a very bad enemy and are dedicated to fight Islam and the Muslims till death, then Muslims are ordered to punish them severely by either executing them, crucifying them, cutting off their hands and feet from opposite sides or exile them from the land. This Noble Verse does not apply to all of the enemies of Islam. It only applies to the worst enemies such as Bani Uraina during our beloved Prophet’s time.

    Please visit Can Muslims torture prisoners of war?

    6- What about the Bible’s cruelty and the slaughtering of suckling infants?

    Introduction: We must first of all know that the entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption! GOD Almighty Said: “`How can you say, “We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?’ (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)”

    The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: “How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us’? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)”

    In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!

    See Also Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.

    The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

    There are several Verses in the Bible that seem to be very cruel. Let us look at few of them:

    1 Samuel 15:2-4
    2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
    3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
    4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.

    Let us look at Numbers 31:17 “Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.”

    Also, let us look at Numbers 31:35-40 “[From the captives of war] 32,000 women who had never slept with a man…….of which the tribute for the LORD was 32 [among them were virgin girls].”

    Why kill the innocent children? Why kill all of the non-virgin women? Back then, it was only men who fought men in wars. Women rarely fought in battle fields. So what crime did the innocent children and the non-virgin women do?

    This verse was sent to me by Yusif 65; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him: “But after they had moved it, the LORD’s hand was against that city, throwing it into a great panic. He afflicted the people of the city, both young and old, with an outbreak of tumors. (From the NIV Bible, 1 Samuel 5:9)”

    “tumors” was defined as “with tumors in the groin.” This is verified at this link.

    Why torture the enemies by destroying their groins?

    I wonder how the hypocrites of the Christian “Answering Islam” team would reply to these verses from their x-rated pornographic Bible.

    Did you also know that fathers are allowed to insert their fingers into their daughters’ vaginas in the porn-full bible?

    My Question: My question to those hypocrites is, using your own standards, does this also make your porn-full bible an “invalid” book?

    We are not even sure that the books of “Numbers” and “1 Samuel” are GOD’s Divine Words. Let us look at what the NIV Bible’s Theologians had to say about them:

    The Book of Numbers:

    “It is not necessary, however, to claim that Numbers came from Moses’ hand complete and in final form. Portions of the book were probably added by scribes or editors from later periods of Israel’s history. For example, the protestation of the humility of Moses (12:3) would hardly be convincing if it came from his own mouth. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 183)”

    So in reality, we don’t know who were all the authors who wrote the book of Numbers. How is it possible then to call the book of Numbers the True Living Revelations of GOD Almighty if the book had been tampered with by the man-made laws of the scribes?

    As you clearly saw in Jeremiah 8:8 in the introduction above, GOD Almighty condemned the laws of the scribes and accused them for turning the Bible into a lie.

    The books of 1 and 2 Samuel:

    “Many questions have arisen pertaining to the literary character, authorship and date of 1,2 Samuel.”

    “Who the author was cannot be known with certainty since the book itself gives no indication of his identity.”

    (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 368).

    Again, unknown books with unknown authors had been inserted into the Bible and are now considered GOD’s Revelations. What a joke! Since when do we consider man-made stories and narrations as GOD’s Revelations?

    (www.answering-christianity.com/authors_gospels.htm) Please visit the link to see the NIV Bible Book’s Bibliography in case you wish to order it.

    Please visit Why did Muhammad take up arms and Christ didn’t? Why did Islam spread by the sword if it were indeed a Religion of Truth, and Christianity didn’t? See my response to this misunderstanding. Jesus killed his enemies in the Bible?

    Back to Prophet Muhammad’s peace be upon him section.

    Science in the Noble Quran and Islam.

    Back to Rebuttals and exposing the cheap lies of the Christian “Answering Islam” team.

    Contradictions and Proofs of Historical Corruptions in the Bible.

    Why did Muhammad take up arms and Christ didn’t? Why did Islam spread by the sword if it were indeed a Religion of Truth, and Christianity didn’t?

    Can Muslims torture prisoners of war?

  40. Dear Islamic Man

    1. It is very sad when a religious person like yourself has to defract a difficult question by pointing out supposed faults in others beliefs… can you not argue purely on the merits of your faith or maybe there just aren´t many that´s why you resort to this tactic.?. Your method of debating reminds me of the politicians that have little constructive policy of their own so they criticize policies of others so as to distract from their own futility…. a sad day this is ….

    However to answer your accusation as this is clearly what it is I would suggest you log into the following website:

    http://www.answer-islam.org regarding jeremiah 8:8

    where it deals with effectively this age old FALSE claim against the Bible.

    May I add that in the Koran the Bible is held up to be a Holy book and Muslims are encouraged in Islam to read it … if this is the case why would they be encouraged to read something that has been corrupted..???.

    On the contrary the Bible is the most historically authentic scripture ever written. If you disagree then check out :
    http://www.Christiananswers.net Where you will beable to get your facts straightened out..

    Peace be upon you
    Victoria

  41. Dear Islamic Man

    As a further comment to your rather rambling statement in which you make many unsubstantiated accusations… when I meet someone who is so evidently confused about what christians believe as yourself then I start by pointing them to the following ..

    From Mathew 5 of the new testament ..after all that you have pointed at so far is of the old testament . Jesus ushered in a new convenant (way of living) through his followers..

    Read following from NIV

    ´1 Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them saying:

    3″Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    4 Blessed are those who mourn,
    for they will be comforted.
    5 Blessed are the meek,
    for they will inherit the earth.
    6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
    for they will be filled.
    7 Blessed are the merciful,
    for they will be shown mercy.
    8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
    for they will see God.
    9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
    for they will be called sons of God.
    10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

    Salt and Light
    13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.

    14 “You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

    The Fulfillment of the Law
    17″Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

    18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the SMALLEST LETTER, not the least STOKE of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
    19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
    Murder
    21″You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’

    22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[b]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,[c]‘ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

    23″Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,

    24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

    25″Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison.

    26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.[d]

    Adultery
    27″You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’[e]

    28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

    29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

    30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

    Divorce
    31″It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’[f]
    32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.
    Oaths
    33″Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.’ 34But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.
    36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37Simply let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

    An Eye for an Eye
    38″You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

    Love for Enemies
    43″You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    IT MAY APPEAR A LITTLE LONG WINDED BUT I PUT THIS IN TO SHOW YOU WHICH IS THE AUTHENTIC FAITH OF PEACE !!! AND WHO IS THE REAL PRINCE OF PEACE !!

    Jesus said that we will know his followers by their fruit so his true followers should be peace loving and serving others sacrificially .. and how shall we then judge true followers of Mohammed ? by the number of body parts they have managed to retain..??

  42. Dear Islamic Man

    Just to point out the differents between taking things literally or metaphorically when it is mentioned about gauging out eyes or cutting off limbs this is not literal it is used to emphasize how important it is to fight the inclination to be immoral.. of course we do not cut off our own limbs to prevent from sinning but this may be where the ideas in the islamic Law to do such things came from…. after all it is believed that many of the jewish and christian teachings were just reinterpreted and then incorporated into islam..

Comments are closed.