Why?
The excuses heard by these morons are ludicrous to the extreme as well: “(1) we tried to get instructions but couldn’t, (2) we weren’t trained in the Geneva convention”
What kind of moron requires instructions on how to treat prisoners of war? How would YOU like to be treated you animals?
You bring shame to the very idea of liberation and your own country. You effectively negate all the good will that has been generated by your comrades, low and slow that might have been, now it is practically non-existant.
And the difference between you and Saddam is?
Comments
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Apparently the Americans tortured them at one of Saddam’s former torture chambers. Americans – no sense of irony.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
I whole heartedly agree. It is an insult to all who have lost their lives and just goes to show how little people respect each other these days.
Actions such as these make me ashamed to have them counted as Americans. They give everyone a bad name and dishonor those who have given life or limb for the cause.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
The difference Mahmood, is that these six were reported by fellow American soldiers, and now will be held accountable and punished for their actions. How many times was Sadam held accountable?
As an American military Officer, I’m greatly embarrassed, but for all it’s imperfections, and despite a few bad eggs, our military is still one of the most honorable in history. We’ll correct this injustice and press on.
Tater
P.S. Enjoy your site very much
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
We are all embarrassed by these f’n morons. There is NO EXCUSE and I am confident that these that “soldiers” will no longer be soldiers as well as being held accountable for their actions back home as well.
There is simply no excuse for this behavior. PERIOD. If it was up to me I would have a public flogging for these idiots in downtown Fallujah and invite the public to join in.
Mark
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
FUCKING A.
As an American, I feel SO ashamed/angry at those 6 TRAITORS who did what they did to those Iraqi prisoners.
Just when we are trying to rebuild Iraq, slowly gaining their trust, building bridges, those fucking morons have to do something like this, and totally trash the ENTIRE efforts of the US military, foreign contractors, honorable Iraqis, and US reputation in the eyes of the Iraqis.
Well thats just SWELL. Great going guys!
The way I see it, the mission of the US federal government has been to secure the trust of Iraqis, so as to build a lasting Republic in Iraq that recognises the rights of its citizens, protects property rights, separation of mosque and state, secures freedom of speech, and the right to bear arms for Iraqis.
Therefore the actions of those 6 EX-Us soldiers goes TOTALLY against the mission of our government: Their actions towards the Iraqi prisoners:
1) Hinders the creation of a Free Iraq.
2) Works towards breaking the trust between Iraqis and Americans,
3) Works towards sanctioning the actions of Sadr, and other insurgent tyrants,
4) Obstruction of justice in light of the geneva conventions regarding human rights by an occupying power.
5) Obstruction of justice in light of US Federal/Military regulations regarding the humane treatment of people in federal custody.
Those 6 EX-Us soldiers are therefore involved in:
HIGH TREASON.
Dishonorable discharge, court-martial is forthcoming. On those charges, I would sanction a 30 year sentence of them being hung by the balls in, ironically, Abu Ghraib prison.
-Terri
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
A dark day for the west – Looking at pictures of UK and US troops maltreating Iraqi people does nothing for my pessimism. When Rome’s enemies looked at their comrades crucified by the roadside it spurred them on to finally sack Rome. Thousands more disaffected Muslims will pour into Iraq to take their revenge.
James.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
You said it all very well in the title Mahmood.
These individuals should be turned over to Iraqi courts… if that will still be possible after their actions.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Shukran Mahmood-
As an American-this is terrible for me to see…But-finally the truth is coming out, and hopefully (maybe I’m naive) someone can prevent it from happening again.
Salam
-M.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
These six idiots (and every officer in charge of them) need to be given a fair trial and then shot. They’ve set back the cause of reform in Iraq by [i]years[/i].
Not in my 34 years have I been ashamed of soldiers who serve my country — but today I am.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
I can’t see how you can all be sure that it’s only 6 people out of 130,00 !!
I mean we knew about that because the 6 people were sick and dumb enough to take “souvenirs” of themselves torturing prisonners. And it was discovered only because one soldier found it too much to hide.
After all, there have been numerous unconfirmed stories about prisonners tortures .. so how can we be sure that there isn’t similar sickening stories?.. just because we don’t see them on CBS ??
What I found also disgusting is the US media treatment .. light .. very light compared to the outrage in europe (and UK particularily).. I was watching Fox news this evening and all what O’Reilly found to say is “immature” acts and went on for 15 minutes criticing CBS for giving materials to the hands of “our ennemies” … another military “expert” went on saying that “technically” this wasn’t acts of tortures (implying that real torture is much worse than that..).
Disgusting !
Re(1): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
sir,
You have double standards of behaviour. You are much more forgiving of your muslim brother’s atrocities and the codified violence of the muslim religion. However, when western, read that chistian, people commit an offense, it is wholly unacceptable to you. I think the United state People should apply your standards to you…and your country and your ganster religion. this is a religious war started by the muslims. But we will finish it. We will not be dhimmis….
Re(2): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Apart from your paranoia, can you give me on single instance of anything that I have said in this blog that support your claim?
If you carefully re-read my post, you will come to realise that I have spoken personally rather than collectively, thus sharing my personal observation of the situation current and my disillusionment.
What’s yours? And please don’t give me the narcissistic conspiracy theories of Muslims hell-bent on world destruction then domination. Give me some reasoned thinking that I can work with.
Re(1): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Mahmood, please don’t forget an important difference between this barbaric cruelty by US and British soldiers and the barbaric cruelties of Saddam’s soldiers. The difference is that the US and British soldiers will be punished for their crimes – punished very severely. The brutality of Saddam’s soldiers was encouraged, tolerated and rewarded. The difference between a vicious dictatorship and the values of liberalism and democracy is not that the latter is able to alter or eradicate the darker sides of human nature from all individuals but rather that it creates a context in which they are recognised, condemned and punished, and their perpetrators are held accountable. It’s not perfect, and I doubt it ever will be, but the values are revealed not in the crimes themselves but in how they are dealt with.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
What differences with Saddam?
Many.
1) They stopped well below the level Saddam thugs began.
2) They didn’t inflict it on thousands
3) They didn’t torture innocent children. BTW where was the fabled Arab street when the school bus was blown to pieces?
4) Last but not least, those people will be punished instead of rewarded as were Saddam’s torturers. And that is BIG difference.
I love your blog but this time you have a mde a show of Arab hypocrisy and double standards.
Re(2): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
I agree totally with your assessment here and I have no problems accepting it. I know that the perpetrators will be identified and punished as they should be, and their superiors too I think. But this has come at a time least wanted, and people will use this as a reason to say “I told you so” and that is going to take a very long time to correct. I think if the perpetrators are punished for their efforts publicly (no not flogging or throwing them in an Iraqi dungeon, but at least the result of their court martial is publicised and independents verify that the sentance is actually carried through) then that might appease the Iraqi and Arab public opinion, even a little bit.
But even that is not going to restore the dignity of those retches who might have believed that they will be saved by the western justice.
If there ever was/is a battle for the “hearts and minds” then this is IT. The powers that be MUST exert even more effort in trying to restore the image of justice and equality under the law than ever before.
And taken another way, this is really the best opportunity for the west to demonstrate their intentions and their justice system to the world in general and the Iraqis in particular. The very least of which is severely punishing the perpetrators of these crimes, their superiors, educating the rest of the hundreds of thousands of troops on the ground and compensating the people these crimes where committed against.
Re: How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
I have no doubt that they will indeed be court martialed, and they deserve the book thrown at them. My worry is if this incident is not just that, a single solitary incident and if it is actually widespread.
This morning we hear of the same heinous crimes being committed by the British in the South. Which suggests that it might very well be widespread.
Human Rights groups must get immediate access to all detention facilities and independent enquiries be mounted to ensure that no other maltreatments occur in the future.
This has and will generate an immense push for all foreign powers to leave Iraq, I just hope that these perpetrators have not completely derailed all efforts to establish a new and democratic Iraq.
I would not be too surprised now if a lot of Iraqis openly demonstrating for the return of Saddam, especially as the military activities in Falujah have been handed over to an ex-commander of the hated republican guard.
There are far too many (little) bad things happening now which might start the snowball to oblivion.
Re: How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Yes it is disgusting. More disgusting is the media’s interpretation of this mess. Fox rather than being editorially brave enough to recognise this for what it is, a crime against humanity, glossed over it as “hey, this is just kids’ prank!” Quite harmless really.
Fox gives credence to the so called extremists (in media) of the other side, Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabia. All of which in my mind are not doing their viewers any favours as they just increase the schism of misunderstanding, rather than get the news broadcast uncoloured by editorial/allegiance policies – but then, this I recognise is a Utopian dream.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Mahmoud dude,
You are Bahraini. I am American. But guess what – we’re both HUMAN. So you know what that means? We arent perfect, because of our species – not our nationality.
Like I said earlier above, (Terri) I think those 6 or 17 or whatever must be charged with High Treason, and then hung by their balls. The chick involved should get gang raped. Anyway, I digress, my point is Mahmoud, the US went there for a mission, our policies there are to secure our interests, and as a consequence, help Iraqis secure theirs. We are here to help.
Our POLICY is help, and peace, and freedoms, and friendships. Sometimes however, a few bad apples involved in this process do something like this, and we ALL suffer – me and you.
But you know what we dont see? The pictures of American troops holding kids, playing with them, teaching them, tickling them, etc. This happens everyday all over Iraq. Of course as you know, bad news is nightly news, and so the bad news always floats to the top. This is not meant to belittle the barbarity and crimes of the 6 ex-soldiers – this is only meant to put them in context.
I hope you do not think all Americans are like this, after all, we’re also humans like you.
-Terri
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
[i]General Taguba saved his harshest words for the military-intelligence officers and private contractors. He recommended that Colonel Thomas Pappas, the commander of one of the M.I. brigades, be reprimanded and receive non-judicial punishment, and that Lieutenant Colonel Steven Jordan, the former director of the Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center, be relieved of duty and reprimanded. He further urged that a civilian contractor, Steven Stephanowicz, of CACI International, be fired from his Army job, reprimanded, and denied his security clearances for lying to the investigating team and allowing or ordering military policemen “who were not trained in interrogation techniques to facilitate interrogations by ‘setting conditions’ which were neither authorized� nor in accordance with Army regulations. “He clearly knew his instructions equated to physical abuse,� Taguba wrote. He also recommended disciplinary action against a second CACI employee, John Israel. (A spokeswoman for CACI said that the company had “received no formal communication� from the Army about the matter.)
“I suspect,� Taguba concluded, that Pappas, Jordan, Stephanowicz, and Israel “were either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuse at Abu Ghraib,� and strongly recommended immediate disciplinary action.[/i] [url=http://www.newyorker.com/printable/?fact/040510fa_fact][b]Torture at Abu Ghraib[/b][/url]: [i]American soldiers brutalized Iraqis. How far up does the responsibility go?[/i]
Re(3): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
I totally agree with everything you’ve said in your reply to my earlier post. These crimes must be punished and seen to be punished, compensation should be paid to the victims, and every effort made to prevent such shocking and inhumane behaviour.
I love reading your blog, btw. I can’t tell you how encouraging it is in these desperate, frightening times to find the ways in which common humanity can reach across lands and oceans and find understanding, humour and hope.
And I’m gonna have to register so I stop being so “Anonymous”!
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
In the case of the British culprits, may I ask that we at least bear in mind the potential problems in establishing their identity?
All we have at present is a grandstand view of the arse-end of a uniform and a urine stream…
We must let the investigation take it’s course, because no-ones interest is served by persecuting the wrong defendants at the behest of the British tabloid newspapers. That is a poor substitute for what we need. What we need, is the truth.
Mahmood, if you can keep your head, while all around are losing theirs and blaming it on Meggie Whetstone…..
Meggie
Re: How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
well my first post here. before i comment, just want to thank you mahmood for a great and informative site, just what we really need. Regarding the issue, those spiteful acts violate human rights in every way and the people involved must be prosecuted. Its not just the americans now, but also the brits, and if you look at the daily mirror, you can see some of it, like a british soldier pissing on an iraqi detainee. It’s just very sinful.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Well my first post here. First of all, I’d just like to thank you mahmood for such a great site, just what we really need. Commenting on the issue, all I can say is that such spiteful acts are a major violation of human rights and those involved must be prosecuted. It’s just not the americans now but the brits too. The images are shocking, and looking at the daily mirror and seeing a brit soldier pissing on an iraqi detainee is absolutely shocking. What a pity looking at such sinful acts. Some people just don’t deserve to live.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
There is widespread anger and disgust in the UK about this. From the photographs it is evident that those prisoners were subjected to sexual abuse at the very least. The culprits deserve custodial sentences, with their names added to the register of sex offenders.
Meggie
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
At the CNN site, the poll yesterday asks if these pictures upset you. 34% said “No.”
God bless America.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
This was a shameful act that debases all. The soldiers who did this should be punished. I am ashamed to be an American when I see my fellow countrymen treating human beings this way. Shame, shame, nothing but shame.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
The difference, Mahmood, is that Saddam executed those he tortured. He tortured tens of thousands, not dozens. And his torture was part of the system, not a distortion of the system.
Of course, one can’t expect an Arab to pick up on these subtle differences.
Re: How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
[quote]Of course, one can’t expect an Arab to pick up on these subtle differences. [/quote]
Interesting comment.
What else can’t we expect from an Arab besides just the lack of reasoning and critical thinking? Personally, I have a great deal of reasonable expectations of what to expect from folks regardless of nationality or cultural background. It’s a shame that I can’t expect the same outlook from some of my neighbors.
jc
Re: How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
I agree that Saddam did an awful lot of things that would last millennia in the minds of people he affected. He is a heartless monster with no conscience.
I am not comparing the American or British with him, nor will I ever, because I thought the “west” collectively had higher morals than savages like Saddam or any of quite a few in this area of the world who join him in this description. I and others held the “west” as a beacon of freedoms and liberty not just to be admired, but emulated. Evidently I am wrong. Human nature is the same the world over, and no matter how civilised you hold your country to be, there are a few who commit these kind of crimes without regard to the very essence of decency. This time however, it was supposedly the highest trained, feared and respected armies of the world who perpetrated crimes which in some circles is being condones as immature pranks. Or worse, compared lightly as this is nothing, the previous administration has done worse. As if these are valid excuses for the inhumanity demonstrated in these situations.
What I am angry about, is not them, nor the United States, the United Kingdom or any of the other coalition countries, what I am angry about rather is myself for allowing myself to be deluded that the Americans and their cohorts are the bringers of liberty and justice.
This situation has cast a huge doubt on this and it will take a lot of time for the wound to heal. If ever.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
I am an American and I am disgusted at the thought that anyone would act this way, and treat other people in this manner. I don’t understand it any more than you do and I am saddened by how helpless I feel.There are sick and cruel people in every culture and nationality – please do not think that these idiots are representative of all Americans.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Write to the President and demand accountability for both Officers and Enlisted. The boss’ shouldn’t get off with a slap on the wrist this time. Makes America/Americans/Military look bad the world over and we have enough daggers coming our way already.
Link to White House for specific issues:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/webmail
This was emailed to me from the White House web site.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
“there is no difference between the brutality (and probable racism) shown by these american kids (probably southern hics who dont know any better) and the brutality shown by saddam….”
There’s no difference between physical abuse and murder?
You really, genuinely believe that?
So if I gave you the choice of being abused by either these soldiers, or by Saddam, you would just flip a coin?
Get a fucking clue.
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"I and others held the ‘west’ as a beacon of freedom and liberty not just to be admired, but emulated. Evidently I am wrong," writes a bitter Mahmood in comments following his post "How the efforts of 6 destroy those
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
To the faggot who posted just above me, (May 02, 2004 12:52 AM)
he asked “The question is, why did you make it in the first place?”
After you’re done grilling Mahmoud over this, why dont you ask Tony fucking Blair, since even HE said, and I paraphrase “We came to Iraq to remove Saddam who did such things, not to repeat them.”
In fact the question is, how dare YOU equate the innocent comparison of one good Arab (Mahmoud) with blind racial hatred of other Arabs against the Jews, when clearly Mahmoud has never, NEVER made such degrading comments about them?
So FUCK you, filthy faggot – going on off tangets – I mean, .. Jews – for gods sake Jews?!? How the fuck did “jews” get involved in this discussion?! Only a filthy fucking faggot like you could possibly put enough spin on this travesty of basic human rights, and somehow end up talking about Jews and Arabs.
FUCK you.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
People all bothered about the comparisons between Saddam and Coalition forces need to go read this post – http://billmon.org/archives/001438.html
This is not the first time that american forces were involved in atrocities, but the surprising fact is that this came out in the open so quickly. The My lai atrocity in Vietnam took something like 6 yrs to get acknowledged. If this is what we are seeing now, wonder what we’ll find out when things calm down and dust settles .. if things ever calm down.
I am an american and no this does not show some special evil among americans. It just shows that the illusion that some americans have that they are, as a rule, more ‘civilized’ than the Baathists etc .. is just that – an illusion.
Re: How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
reply: irony
(americans- no sense of irony!)
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Mahmood, I (and all Americans I know) agree. This is unacceptable.
=darwin
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Well, I don’t know what you are wondering about. American Army has made lots of this in the past and will continue doing so every time it serves it’s need, or the Intelligences needs, or Cheneys need, or anyone’s needs who has the money to pay for it. Why should they be different to any other army in the world. All do it, and almost all show the same hypocrasy when it’s discovered. You think any of this pigs that slaughtered in the past has ever been condemend for it, rather than put a bit into jail when it came to the press?
Besides that, everyone knows that simple americans usually are poor in intellect, rather uneducated and real ignorants. Even most of their officials are, they simply don’t see the needs of it, look at the moron they have for presidents, that says it all …
Re(3): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
You are right, I misread your attributing the behaior to the individuals. I still disagree with your equating that behavior with saddam’s regime.
As for the existence of a world wide jihad, I’d say the Mullahs in Iran have a different opinion on the subject than you.
I’d also say the muslims that are demanding to pray at the Cordoba Cathedral would also disagree with you. Especially On March 3rd, however, a different picture was painted, when as Sunday Mass barely concluded, participants of the Third International Congress of Moslem Women. they attempted to perform a communal prayer before the mihrab, challenging staff that tried to impede the forbidden act of worship, actions that would most likely bring the death of any Christian attempting the same in a mosque in a Muslim country.
Also, the Thai government is being criticized for using force against moslems. Of course this was in response to muslim separatists from maylasia wanting to establish an independent state within Thailand and who also slaughtered more than 100 buddhists and christians to drive the point home.
these are just recent examples, shall we gol we go to the sudan, somalia?
And please don’t try to tell me that muslim outrage is caused by the crusades. Islam expanded through violence and conquest. the crusades were a resonse to that.
And please tell me why OBL is such a hero in the muslim world. Could it be that his interpretation of islam is shared by the majority of muslims?
Re(2): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
As I recall, the invasion took place on Iraqi soil by American forces who are currently sexually abusing and torturing Iraqis for the fun of it, or so it seems.
Re: How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Thank you so much for your blog. Isn’t it wonderful that the Internet allows people from far-flung corners of the world to communicate and, hopefully, to build better understanding among all of us?
I appreciate your clarification of your original post. I cannot tell you how disgusted and ashamed Americans are by the conduct of those rogue “soldiers.” And no one is more outraged than the hundreds of thousands of honorable US military members who feel that their reputation has been indelibly stained by the actions of these criminals. Those directly responsible have already been indicted in our military justice system, will face a court martial, and will go to prison. An on-going, in-depth investigation continues to determine which of the officers in their chain of command should similarly be held responsible. I can assure you that the US Army is so livid about this that the only concern we should have is to make sure the defendants are tried fairly.
Still, I was shocked by your question, “And the difference between you and Saddam is what?” I think that’s grossly unfair, and I think you have acknowledged that.
It seems to me that there is a more subtle problem here which we need to address. I’m delighted that you hold our society in high esteem. (Many in your part of the world, of course, do not.) But I think our admirers, in common with our critics, need to ground their view of us in realism.
Gen. David Petraeus who has spent most of the last year doing excellent work in Iraq speaks often of “The Man On the Moon Syndrome” which he encountered constantly among Iraqis. The argument ran, “You are Americans. You are the most advanced, the most powerful, the richest country on the face of the earth. You put a man on the moon. Why can you not do X?” By which, Gen. Petraeus explains, the speaker meant, “Why can you not meet our urgent need for X and have met it no later than yesterday?” In short, we are dealing with unrealistic expectations.
We Americans are fortunate to live in a society which enjoys a high degree of individual freedom — which has, in turn, created a society with a strong economy. Those things have led to the establishment of a rule of law which functions well the vast majority of the time. But none of that makes us miracle workers, and it certainly doesn’t mean that our individual humans are all good and decent. It does allow us to bring them to justice when they are not.
I think that Iraqis in particular need to understand that we have no magic wand which can instantly repair their shattered infrastructure, especially when insurgents continue to blow it up! We cannot instantly transform their traumatized society into a modern, smoothly-functioning one. We can bring advanced technology and expertise to the table. We can bring a great deal of economic aid. We can bring an understanding of democracy and the rule of law and a fervent desire to share it with others. And we can, and I believe we do, bring a wholehearted desire to see the lives of the long-suffering Iraqi improve dramatically. We believe deeply that this process will bring great benefits to the whole of the Middle East.
The process, however, will require time and patience. And we Americans are singularly bad at practicing patience — a virtue which Arabs seem to possess in abundance under most circumstances. So perhaps a little more realistic understanding, and more realistic expectations, on both sides would help us all to attain our common goal.
Re(1): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Amen and amen again Gail, thank you for putting the issues in better perspective than I have.
I agree wholeheartedly that patience and constructive assistance on both sides will help Iraq and the whole Middle East achieve our common goals.
As for my comparison between Saddam and these sad events, I might have been unfare in a moment of rage, but as another respondant commented, it is only a matter of context that they are similar, rather than the depths of crimes committed.
Thank you again for your comment and welcome aboard! I hope that we will see more of your reasoned mind in the future.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Mahmood,
The difference between this shameful incident at Abu Ghraib and Saddam’s torture in the same prison is that the American abuse is an anomaly while Saddam’s torture was policy.
Based on my service in the military, my informed opinion is that everyone in the chain of command at the prison who had something to with this will be discharged at best, court martialled at worse. That includes the brigadier general in charge of the prison and perhaps the ranking officer above her. The US military holds its commanders strictly accountable for such infractions. Their careers are over in this case at the very least.
The difference between America and Saddam in this case are that the American abusers will be punished while Saddam’s torturers were rewarded. Saddam’s torturers were paid a bonus for confessions extracted by force, bogus or not. They extracted a lot of false confessions from their victims.
While abusive, all of these prisoners were physically unharmed though psychologically abused. No blood was drawn here. Saddam’s men drew blood. Buckets of blood. Rivers of blood. Posing prisoners naked is fairly tame compared to executing them, extracting their brains, and returning the empty-skulled corpse to the victims families, as the Mukhabarat did.
This American abuse was done on a small scale while Saddam’s butchery took place on a large scale. There are perhaps a couple dozen Iraqis in these pictures. Let’s assume that there were a couple hundred more who did not have their pictures taken. Heck, let’s make it a thousand. That hardly compares to the half million men, women, and children Saddam slaughtered and the millions more he imprisoned to intimidate their neighbors. Saddam’s standard policy was to torture his political prisoners for a couple weeks before releasing them as a warning to the others. That means they were hanging from the ceiling fan by their wrists, which were tied behind their backs, while thugs wacked them with rods at random intervals.
The general difference between America and Saddam is that problems like this will be corrected by America to make things right while problems like this were exacerbated by Saddam to make things worse. Saddam sank further and further into bloodshed as his rule progressed. Iraqi groups studying the records of the Baathist regime estimate that Saddam would have killed 70,000 Iraqis in the last year. America’s invasion of Iraq saved tens of thousands of Iraqi lives from a grim death in Saddam’s dungeons.
But you knew all this, didn’t you Mahmood? Your outrage seems very narrowly focused on American misdeeds. Your opinion gains more respect in American eyes if your principles are evenly applied to all parties. You should hold the Arab actors to the same high moral standard to which you hold the Americans. We can accept honest criticism and take action on it to correct it. Can the Arabs?
Steve
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
As was mentioned earlier: How do we know what the actual number of abusers is: it may turn out to be much greater than anyone could imagine.
As for all the nasty posts going back and forth…. what can I say but that this sort of hate is what causes such things as the abuse of prisoners;car bombing;hate crimes. Why don’t you both put down the gloves and do your fighting with rationale and facts. Not need for name calling or pointing fingers. Agree to disagee and then maybe you will both be able to hear(read,understand) what the other is saying.
Good luck and I pray that people such as you will stop spreading the hate.
How can anyone make excuses for the jerks who did these horrible things. How would you feel if it were pictures of Brits or Americans being humiliate…or maybe even a member of your family. Get real people… it is the most disgusting thing anyone could have done knowing the culture (and if they didn’t they should have)…blame the officers for this one. They should have suspected things like this when they first got reports back in November and didn’t bother to really find out what was going on…just swept it under the table.
As for the Brits: I remember last year around Easter when some of the first returning to Britian were arrested because they had taken film to be developed and the shop called the authorities when the pics were of soldiers abusing prisoners…this is not new to them..they have had over a year to investigate and warm the US of the abuse. Not blaming them…. If I heard the story then I’m sure our government was aware… everyone dropped the ball on this one..
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
While our common humanity makes us very similar in all fundimental ways (there are good and bad people in every religion and culture!), I think some may be overlooking a fundimental cultural difference. Yes, Americans in the position of those prisoners who were abused would also have been humiliated, but I think the degree of humiliation would have been more different than would occur to most Americans. Islam sees modesty in an entirely different light than we Westerners, and because of this difference, I suspect that death probably would have been preferable to at least some of the prisoners – more honorable. Just something to think about…
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
As a middleaged British woman, I would like to say that the outrageous and disgusting acts committed by both the US and UK soldiers left a foul taste in my mouth too, and there is no doubt in my mind that this deplorable action will have set the whole conflict back by years.
This to me is a very serious and frightening issue, especially since I live on the periphery of a very densly populated ethnic community where racial disharmony has been rife for years, since well before the taking of Iraq.
We are preached to on a daily basis about the merits of racial harmony and how best we are going to achieve this now apparently far away goal.
The story of racial disharmony and the blame of such does not rest entirely with the attitudes of the white population, many many of us are totally and happily able to live with and respect cultures that are different to our own, and would love for racial harmony to exist.
Sadly with the attitudes of many of the young asian/muslim residents in my area alone I cannot see how this will ever happen, there are gangs of young muslim youth parading the streets displaying acts of total and utter disrespect on white women, calling them white meat, filth, spitting at our feet and generally intimidating us in general as we try to go about our daily duties, shopping, banking etc, so much so that areas of no go are now being established where once we were free to walk, visit, and enjoy as we should in the country of our origin, if these young men are brought to task about thier actions and arrested a great cry of racist action goes up, and even more trouble for the police happens as a result.
The fact that as western women we have enjoyed more freedom than those of our eastern sisters does not and should not automatically reduce us to the level of jezebels and whores as the majority of the yound asian populus in this area seems to regard us.
Nor should they forget that we are mothers, wives, sisters, and grandmothers too, and should be regarded with as much respect as the women of thier own culture even though we do not walk around in public hidden from view with long black flowing gowns.
We have been born to our own culture, it is the culture that we love and wish to live by, and should be respected by eastern cultures living in the west.
Yes I do see the foul side of the soldiers both from the UK and US in the treatment of the Iraqi prisoners, and I would be at the front of the queue in applauding their punishment, but I also see things just as frightening and totally unpardonable happening on my own doorstep,
it really is time that someone somewhere came up with a reasonable life code to follow from both sides east and west,
a code that will let all sides see that we are none of us prepared to live by any culture we dont wish to, and that live and let live, is the only true way,
oh if only that could be ever achieved !!!!
best regards to all
Re: How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
in all honesty? isnt murder just the extreme of physical abuse? they are both on the same continum. in fact, between the prospect of physical abuse and then living my life in dread and horror with emotional & psycological scars to boot – i would prefer death. its easier. and there is an end.
incidentally – war is ugly. and crimes of humanity are always committed in war. i was not surprised by what happened, i have a nasty feeling that any US soliders captured by ex Baathists or republican guards are going through the same thing. these kids really dont know any better – they are probably in their late teens and in their early twenties – and have been sent half way across the world to fight for someting they they dont totally understand nor comprehend. if it is taking the US ‘educated’ leadership time to understand what governing a milti ethnic diverse populationis like in iraq – why should we expect any more from these kids?
the responsability lies firmly with the decision and the calculation to go to war in the first place. and there were certain miltary mistakes that were made. and unfortunately, we ALL, collectively, have to deal with the repercussions, because it is ALL, collectively, our responsability to try and make this world a better place for ourselves and our kids.
we, the arabs, have alot to learn. we need to learn how to separate church (mosque)from state, we need to start a reformation in islam. we need to move from a tribal system of governance and allegiances to a more institionalized system that is not as weak or as powerful as its leader.
but, i would like to say a few words to those who are not from the are who are reading this blog to understand more about who we are and what issues we face. it took europe significant amounts of blood and grime and pain and terror before the separation of church and state was established. and even more bloodshed for constituonal monarchies to be established. look at the russian revolution, the french revolution, etc.
reform will not happen overnight in the middle east. it wont even happen in the next 10 – 20 years. it will take generations. and there will be pain. and beleive me, we will need all the help and support that we can get. so – please be careful when viewing this part of the world in black and white. please watch and read more media than fox (if you are in the states). and please realize that US foriegn policy today is making the job of the arab liberals in the area MUCH more difficult than it was 5 – 10 years ago.
israel is an issue. and as much as any US president cannot comprehend running an election campaign without support from AIPAC, you will have to undertsand that not arab with any amount of humanity in his soul can comprehend why the US financially, economically and politicaly support Israel 100%. Note – I am not justifying terrorism or any of the other bullshit that UBL and his cronies spew out … howver – people must realize that the average arab has lost complete trust and faith in the US as being a honest broker in the area because of the double standards when it comes to Israel. which is why – when an arab will heard the word hypocracy – his/her first instinctive reaction will be .. which pot is calling which kettle black??
anyways .. enough discourse. lets all just hope and pray that the iraq story will not end with too much damage – and that as the US learns what leadership in iraq entails – it does so without fueling sectariansism even more in the rest of the region ..
allah kareem … 🙁
Re(1): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
That’s because they have perspective. These people will be dealt with. Blowing it out of proportion serves no purpose whatsoever and does nothing but aid the enemy. Unlike every enemy America has fought against, we aren’t going to reward our soldiers for this behavior, we are going to punish them. That’s far more than can be said for the kind of treatment our soldiers routinely received in Vietnam, Japan, Korea and Iraq.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Thank you all for commenting. We all agree that what happened is regrettable, but some have raised the questions of double standards which I must address to make my point clear:
Personally, I hold Americans and the rest of the West in very high regards because of technological advancements, the various freedoms they enjoy, and the direct rule by the people represented in unfettered elections.
The fact overriding all of these principles but maybe directly because of them in my mind is the west’s ability to recognise wrong, and then correcting it. This is driven not just by governments, but by the responsible public who ensure that the government do the right thing.
There is no comparison in the Middle East. While we are much better off in Bahrain in particular with the nucleus of these very principles planted in a landmark case where the Ministry of Interior itself was held accountable for wrongful death, unfortunately we (as Arabs) have an awful long way to go to reach the levels of the west which I – and a lot like me – hold in such high regard.
The reasons for this are manifold as has been analysed and commented upon by literally hundreds of books and papers. I summarise this to the fact that we are still indentured, enslaved, and over-ruled by minority corrupt regimes throughout the Arab world including those calling themselves democracies. This has also become our culture as we have lived in this manner for hundreds of years that it has become the norm. Acquiesce and deffer to authority your thoughts, wills and mirror what only they approve. We have no tradition in democracy. A person’s allegiance is to his immediate family, the family to the extended family, the extended family to the tribe and all to the king. Anyone who dares to think outside of these concentric circles is immediately an outcast. There is no bandwidth for dissent. You follow unwritten rules while continuously walking the tight-rope. That’s why society here brands thinkers and opposition figures as anything but conducive members of the society because their thoughts oppose those of their tribe or king. In short, dissenting voices – even if justifiable – are not tolerated, which breeds irresponsibility in the society as a whole.
My problem with this situation is the shock I received when presented with these photographs. How can the civilisation I hold in such high regard, the civilisation which I try to emulate in as much as the respect human rights, for popular participation in government, and responsibility even allow such a thing to happen?
I know that war is ugly. I know that change is painful. And I held the belief that Iraq, left to its own devices at the moment will only descend into chaos. I firmly believe that with the help of the west Iraq has a chance to be the powerhouse of the Middle East and it will act as a much needed catalyst for change in this area.
The generals while kept busy fighting skirmishes all over that country, should not have let the ball drop as far as the details are concerned. They should have been more vigilant and more astute in not using a den of torture as their main holding cell, but as they have they should have had the presence of mind to ensure that it will not represent what has happened there in the past.
Am I being hypocritical in being shocked? Am I being hypocritical in being outraged?
I don’t think so. I want Iraq to succeed for my selfish reason I grant you; that reason being for a better Arab world which is responsible, accountable and peaceful.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Hi Mahmoud: I can think of at least one major difference between what we see in these photos and what Saddam was responsible for, i.e., we never fed these captives feet first into a meat grinder, or head first for that matter. The chances are excellent that they didn’t get their tongues cut out or ears cut off. It’s also a good bet that we didn’t rape their wifes, mothers or daughters, much less in front of them. Need I go on? Of course, this is not proper behavior and those responsible will be punished. Oh yeah, that’s another difference. It’s kind of funny that we never heard much world outcry when Saddam was grinding his opponents, both imaginary and real, into dust. I guess the U.N., French, Germans and Russians, among others, were too busy making money from him to raise much of a fuss. By the way, the United Nations is almost a dead institution, their complicity in the Food for Oil program was reprehensible, they’ve lost most of their credibility here in the U.S. A damn shame, a good idea but when Syria is on the Security Council and Iraq was in charge of Human Rights Abuses (before the war) anyone with two brain cells to rub together has to wonder just what the hell is going on, when did things get so screwed up and how can it be fixed. Kofi Annan is not without fault, he was too busy ‘managing’ that food for oil program and lobbying the French for that damn Nobel prize to give a rats ass about the 800,000 people slaughtered in the Hutu-Tutsi massacre. The French were also supplying arms during that slaughter. And the whole world is aghast by some piece of shit standing on a box with a bag on his head while holding two short pieces of unconnected wire. I’m sure that he was on his way to visit his sick mother when he ‘accidently’ shot a few of our troops and wound up in this possibly staged photo. Also, I just love the cries of outrage we’re hearing from Syria, Egypt, Pakistan and the like. And where did they get these titles of ‘president’? President-Or-Else is more like it. They’re laughing their balls off because they damn sure would have finished this guy off with some sick Saddam-like method. You’ve also got to wonder about the timing of these photos, very interesting. Regarding that photo you’ve posted, in the final analysis, if it’s an actual photo, we’ve committed the unpardonable sin of having someone stand on a box. After 30 years of Saddam’s societal torture, I’m sure he’s been scarred for life with that experience, we’ll probably need to provide counseling for him for the rest of his life. Think about that.
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How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Just an update on the status of the British investigation: We must all bear in mind the possibility that we may have been hoaxed. Military experts have told the BBC that some of the items of uniform, the rifle, and a vehicle shown in the pictures were not deployed in Iraq at all. The pictures may have been staged in England. If so, I would still like to get my hands on the treacherous buggers who set this up.
Meggie
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Mahmood: Firstly, may I suggest here that when a particularily ignorant, racist person posts, don’t respond….then they stand alone with their ignorance. I am not saying that someone who has a different opinion, (be it the author of this blog or other posters) should not be answered, but responding to ‘no-minds’ only feeds their feeble egos. Secondly, this horrible behaviour by American soldiers is unexcusable…period! Their punishment should be severe! They know better. Thirdly, I am sorry your beliefs in the western world has been affected. Mine too. Most people are decent, it just takes a few lousy morons to dampen the human spirit. All the best to you and yours. L & L
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Mahmood:
“How can the civilisation I hold in such high regard, the civilisation which I try to emulate in as much as the respect human rights, for popular participation in government, and responsibility even allow such a thing to happen?”
I honestly don’t understand where you get your view of the West. Yes, we are more technologically advanced. And in comparison to your culture, we place more value on freedom of speech, rule of law, etc.
But human nature is human nature, and there are brutes in ALL cultures who enjoy tormenting others. How could you believe otherwise?
But beyond that, if you truly think our advances make us morally superior, I suggest you read up on Dresden and Hiroshima. When pushed, we have no problems with slaughtering our enemies. We have no problems dehumanizing them, targeting them, and vaporizing them. And the real danger here is that slowly, step by step, we’re moving towards this outcome with regards to Arab culture. Your media and your schools seem intent on a clash of civilizations. History teaches you the danger of that outcome. Please moderate the hatred pouring out of your newspapers and mosques before it’s too late!
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Why is everyone dumping on Mahmood about double standards? We are not talking about Arabs here but rather the behavior of our own. There’s no rationalizing it by comparing others behaviors. These people were wrong, period. Their excuses are lame; you don’t treat people that way just because you have power over them.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Mahmood:
“I am not comparing the American or British with him, nor will I ever…”
But that’s exactly what you did in your post, when you said “And the difference between you and Saddam is?”
When I point out the absurd nature of your first comment, you recognize that it was horsedung.
The question is, why did you make it in the first place? Why do you, even for a moment, equate Saddam’s systemic, decades-long [b]genocide [/b]with the physical abuse of a dozen asshole Americans?
Why do you, like almost every Arab on the planet, feel this overwhelming need to ignore the tragedies inflicted on your people by your own leaders, and amplify the tragedies inflicted by Americans and — even worse, evil of evils — the Jews?
Why?
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Oh Give me a Break.
Double Standards? Mosques pouring out hate? Trying to make a case for relativism where torture is acceptable – but what counts is the difference is in the degree of torture?!! i.e. urinating on someone is acceptabe but raping them is not?? thats total bullshit. humilation, my friends, is humiliation.
Let me try and take a stab at this.
The ONLY difference between what the soldiers did and what Saddam did, is the context that each of them was involved in. in other words, the only reason that what the us soldiers ever came to be discussed and become a point for outrage, is because of the role of the media in a country like america vs the role of the media in a country like saddam’s iraq.
there is no difference between the brutality (and probable racism) shown by these american kids (probably southern hics who dont know any better) and the brutality shown by saddam (who is an iraqi hic by any standard and did his damndest to destroy whatever culture was ever in iraq).
the difference is that there is a degree of checks and balances in the system of governance that we know as the us of a that is more sophisticated than the system of governance that we knew (and for that matter, currently know) as iraq.
Remember Enron? That story was not broken by the SEC – that was broken by the media. Ditto for Watergate. So – please let noone stand on the moral bandwagon and claim hierarchy. The only difference is that public opinion in the US matters, specially in election year, and as a result, the story broke and made headlines.
As for the point about Arab hypocracy for not talking against their leaders. Could the fool who wrote that statement spend just about a few minutes learning about Arab history and look at how many people have died in the last 50 years alone trying to make their world a better place??!!
In case anyone was wondering where I stand on this – I am an Arab. I also spent many good years in the States. And I have to tell you one thing. The US Government (and its people) need to learn one lesson. Being a superpower means responsability. It is like being a single parent. You dont go into war on your own, in a very volatile region, under the prestext of some bullshit excuse which noone beleives in the first place, ignoring the UN and most of Europe, go to war on the cheap without proper planning, justifying everything because God is on your side, and then not be surprised that things aint going the way that you want!!! And if you think that you can do that because you are morally and technologically superior and God is on your side – well, I have news for you ….. thats EXACTLY the same phiolosophy as the terrrorists.
America – wake up. Start asking questions about why the region that welcomed you in 1991 has an extremely ambivalent reaction to you in 2004. And before someone mouths off about ‘leadership’ in the region – I would just like to point out what the US experiece has been like in Iraq to date. it aint as easy as you thought. eh?
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
“we, the arabs, have alot to learn. we need to learn how to separate church (mosque)from state, we need to start a reformation in islam. we need to move from a tribal system of governance and allegiances to a more institionalized system that is not as weak or as powerful as its leader.”
I’d worry more about your whacky priorities, first of all. You’d seriously rather be killed than play naked twister? And you’re educated! Jeesh.
There’s something deeply, deeply wrong with Arab culture if you truly believe this.
Re: How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
The Arabs have a huge amount of price and even bigger egos, but are pragmatic at the same time. So when he said that he would rather die than live in shame, it is a sentiment that is shared by just about every Arab. Face, is very important. It is this that you should appreciate really.
BUT, this will change only when: “we, the arabs, have alot to learn. we need to learn how to separate church (mosque)from state, we need to start a reformation in islam. we need to move from a tribal system of governance and allegiances to a more institionalized system that is not as weak or as powerful as its leader.”
Your unappreciation of this fact is understandable though, If I was in your situation I would find it hard to believe too and even harder to understand, but it *is* a fact and it will take a lot to change that.
So please, do try to understand our way of life, our customs and our fears before you pass judgement. That’s all the respondant really asked for.
And if you read between the lines, WE agree with YOU! We’re just trying to explain the hard facts on the ground in the hope of generating better understanding.
Re: How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
A fair and gracious reply, Mahmood.
Speaking from my perspective as a former US Air Force officer, I wince when I see those pictures for a variety of reasons. There is the obvious reason of embarassment. They have shamed my military, which none of us takes lightly.
There is also the wince for how can these people so dumb? They are taking photos of themselves smiling next to the prisoners they are abusing. It’s like they are asking to be hammered, as if they are working for their own prosecution. How could they not know this would not put them in deep trouble? This is more confirmation for me that bad people are usually stupid people.
There is also a wince for what I know will happen to them. It’s one thing for your commander to be presented with photographic evidence of your bad conduct. It is another thing to embarass the commanding general of your theater. It is yet another thing for the President of the United States to make a public statement that he is sickened by your actions. There is so much bad juju rolling down the mountain on these prison guards that I almost feel sorry for them. Almost. I certainly wouldn’t want to be them. Or even near them.
It looks to me like this abuse was the product of undisciplined troops and weak commanders. They would not feel so comfortable to do this if their commander made a practice of random inspections of the jail. I wouldn’t want to be that commander either.
That said, I can’t help but notice that the outrage in the Arab media differs between equivalent incidents, based on whether the perpetrators are American or Arab. There is quite a bit of outrage at Al Jazeera over this abuse of prisoners at the hands of Americans. Fair enough. However, where was the outrage just a few days ago when Iraqis executed on video an Italian security guard they took hostage and presented it to Al Jazeera? Which event was more outrageous? Such criticism comes across as partisan rather than principled.
Steve
Re: How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
I beg to differ with Anonymous. The atomic bombing of Hiroshima was the most moral choice, a choice that that spared the most lives of any option available. It saved more Allied and Japanese lives than giving up, than blockading Japan to starve it into surrender, and certainly more than a land invasion. Before you delude yourself that America dehumanized Germany and Japan, you might consider that under American occupation they both became economic superpowers. Where else in history has that ever happenned?
That’s something to consider carefully with regard to the American occupation of Iraq. The leftover Baathists, the religious warriors, the Iranian secret agents are all preventing America from taking Iraq to the same destination as Germany and Japan.
Steve
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
What I don’t understand, Mahmood, is why you’re so proud of a system and a culture that have left you centuries behind the rest of the world, that have led to an unbroken stream of military defeats, that have allowed none but tyrants and mass murderers to rule you for centuries… and so on and so on.
What exactly do you Arabs have to be proud of? Perhaps a little less pride, and a little more sincere self-reflection, might be in order?
Re: How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Here we go again. Dresde and Hiroshima. Am I allowed to remind you what was going on in Nazi extermination camps? Can you remind that shortening the war saved people from the extermination camps?
Hiroshima? The US military estimated at one million american deaths the cost of an invasion of Japan’s main island. They estimated it would cost ten million Japanese lives. Ten million Japanese soldiers. Given the habit of Japanese military to force their civilians to suicide the probable outcome would have been the virtual anihilation of the 70 million peole in Japan.
But that is not all, the Japanese were still holding in China, in Indonesia and in part of the Philippines. On average they killed three hundred thousand people per month. In other words if the effect of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings was to shorten the war by one mere month then it saved more Chinese and Philipino lives than it killed Japanese.
BTW when YOUR life is in line, when YOU are being shot at, then you will get the right to speak about excessive use of force to destroy the ennemy. As long as you post from the safety of an american campus you have the right to shut up.
Re: How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Indeed they might! Unfortunately it takes generations to change the mind-set of a person, let alone a community or a country, so we still have a lot to do and some time to go.
What we need now is your support in actually achieving these goals.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Mahmood, your honesty is refreshing. These blogs are the only sign we have that there are people in your countries that think as we do. Your media is so horrendous that it stupifies us at times.
I wish we could do more to support you, but on our end the mood is turning dark. We genuinely did want to bring freedom, and we see the entire region turning against us. We see Arabs telling us that we’re worse than Saddam, and our immediate reaction is to leave, close our borders, and watch for attack. And if it comes, I don’t have to tell you the response will be brutal. The Arab world is playing a dangerous game here. You can’t raise your children to want to kill us, and then tell us you’re our friends.
There could be dark days ahead. I hope and pray that there are not, for all our sakes.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
As the middleaged UK woman of a few posts above this one, I read with interest and say that the above comments serve to reflect the exact way that I was thinking.
It seems a brutal shame to me that the young muslims that have been born into a western culture and use all the facilities of this culture to further thier own needs and desires, now turn on us with hatred and spit upon us on the very streets of our western heritage, because of the fanatical teachings of certain stringent Islamic extremists.
Its true that you cannot raise your children to want to Kill us and then want to be our friend, how on earth is that supposed to raise hope for racial harmony.
Let it not be forgotten that we as UK citizens with hundreds of years of decendency in our country also have rights, and one of those rights is to walk our streets in safety and with respect.
I lived in Jeddah 25 years ago for 2 years while my husband was working there on contract to a Saudi company,
for three months before I went to live there I studied the Islamic culture and as much about the religeon as I could do, to try and make sure that I would blend in and repect my future host country in the best way possible.
In all the time I spent in Jeddah I made sure I followed and respected every rule, law, and custom that I came up against without question, even though I found some things a little strange and hard to accept, I constantly studied, thought about, and tried to understand things that were totally alien to me, and told myself daily that I was a guest in another country and I must always do anything to avoid offending the hospitality of my hosts.
I truly enjoyed my stay in Saudi Arabia, It was the experience of a lifetime and 99% of the people I met were charming, generous, Kind, and very interesting.
Mahmood I also find your honesty refeshing and I find a glimmer of hope that there are more than you with the attidude you hold, in order to ever be able to achieve world peace all the dangerous political religeous extremist groups should go and search inside thier inner souls and ask themselves truly is this what God really wants ?
regards
Re: How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
You are simply a better person. While they are an ignorant bunch who have abused the country that hosted and nurtured them. End of story.
Don’t let them get you down, and please don’t judge all muslims/arabs the same. I know and understand what you are talking about. I have seen the examples you are talking about in the UK with my own eyes, and sympathise with you. Their day of reckoning is coming, never fear.
For now, just accept that you are a better person and don’t let them phase you. They might bark, once in a while they will bite, but for the most part they are just cowards.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
“I’d worry more about your whacky priorities, first of all. You’d seriously rather be killed than play naked twister? And you’re educated! Jeesh. There’s something deeply, deeply wrong with Arab culture if you truly believe this. ”
*deep breath*
my dear friend. who was it who said a little knowledge is a dangerous thing? wasnt it benjamin franklin? and wasnt the actual quote a little learning is a dangerous thing?
by setting up your question the way that you have, you have actually implicitly shown that you think the most arabs beleive in death over life. errmmm .. i dunno. where have i seen that argument before? ah – yeah, i get it! its how Fox et al portray/ justify Palestinian suicide bombers .. there must be soemthing fundamentally flawed in their dna code for them to favor death over life. that is a very simple and easy solution that the media have come to portray the situaion in Israel in order for the majority of Americans to dehumanize the ‘enemy’.
what, you dont agree? ok. lets try again. ‘ kooks?’ anyone? anyone? or ‘jew bags’ earlier? wasnt it conventional wisdom in euopre that jews needed to be placed into ghettos? and wasnt it conventional wisom in south africa tha apartheid was natural? isnt ‘the enemy’ always dehumanized because its easier for most people to think of an ‘us’ vs ‘them’? Isnt that what this blog and our discussion is trying to damndest to avoid?
all i said is that given the choice between being raped and tortured and being killed, i would opt for the quick death – not the long drawn out one. incidentally, i also beleive in euthanasia, and i support abortion, and i hope to god that if i ever were to become a parapalegic livinng my life on a hospital on life support – my family would allow me to die with dignity. in fact, if i were diagnosed with sever and acute cancer, i would probably not take the chemo spend my energy living out the rest of my life with dignity and honor rather than fight against my destiny. ‘naked twister’ and rape and torture aint the same, my friend.
there is nothing about arab ‘coding’ that makes my point of view wrong. in holland, most of the above is legal.
back to my point. you sound like someone who is interested in learning and understanding what is going on. dont make the mistaake of just reading your own media for ‘the truth’. i certainly dont just read ours. and, once you scratch beneath the surface and realize that we are all the same people and there is NOTHING different in the dna between arab and american and moslem and christian point of view – its just culture and conditioning – then we might all be in a better place.
dont build walls. foster undersanding. it pays off. its harder – and required a suspension of disbleief – and requires an open mind – and deep though – (not easy for a fast food culture 😉 – but we are each others only hope … dont kill it by cheap labelling ..
(and mahmood, it isnt a ‘he
Re: How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Permit me to say that you are partly mistaken.
The people who are against you are those most set to lose influence and wealth, those then by definition are some of the Arab leaders, not the common people. The common people just want a better life, a life which is lived in safety and security. Alas these same people are terrified of the leaders for their very lives. They have learnt through millenia to at least appear to toe the line set for them, rather than show their true feeling.
How else would Saddam and his cohorts rule for 30 years? How else did we stop developing for over 1,000 years but for that very same fear?
So rest assured my friend, it is not the common people who are against you, it is the degenerate no-brains who have habitually been used as fodder and will continue to be so until education, logical thinking and freedoms are appreciated. But then, these qualities of life will probably never come without a struggle and much blood.
At least we in Bahrain are lighting the path for others to follow. Although our democracy is young, the majority on these islands would rather stand side-to-side with young leadership to show the others in the area what can be done.
Tollerance is the base of democracy, we are still learning, we still have faults, but it seems that a flicker of that are begining to take hold, we just hope that the flame continues rather than be extinguished at birth.
We’re with you, we recognise your strength and benevolance and we want to emulate some of your good qualities, but it will take time.
Re: How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
I do beg your pardom mam! I just hope that one day you will cease to be anonymous to me at least and we can share a drink! You know how to contact me, we have much to discuss!
Peace.
Re: How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
*Sigh*
The problem is, if you really wanted to bring ‘freedom
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Arab Compatriot:
“all i said is that given the choice between being raped and tortured and being killed, i would opt for the quick death”
And I would agree with you, but the Iraqis in the photos aren’t being raped, and the torture seems to consist of playing naked twister and masturbating. Not something I’d want to do, but I stand by my claim that it beats anything Saddam would have done to them.
I’m not defending the abuses; what I (and lots of us over here) object to is the extraordinary response to these pictures in an Arab media that looked the other way for 30 years while Saddam committed genocide.
There’s an inherent racism in your culture’s reaction: if Arabs slaughter Arabs, that’s okay. But if a Westerner abuses an Arab, it’s time for jihad!
If you as a people want retribution on those who have kept you enslaved, kept you in chains, dragged your society back into the middle ages, I suggest you look at your leaders, your clerics and your journalists. Not at us.
Despite the abuses of those American guards, my nation has spent hundreds of billions of our money and almost one thousand of our young people to topple the Taliban and Saddam. That’s more good done for Islam than the House of Saud ever did. More good than Nasser ever did. But do we get any thanks?
The Clown Prince of Saud just blamed “Zionists” for the recent attacks in Saudi Arabia. How the hell is Arab culture going to right itself when you can’t stop blaming the Jews for your own problems?
I don’t single you out, and I hope none of the above applies to you. But the images on al-Jazeera aren’t just encouraging Iraqis to shoot at our soldiers; they’re also encouraging us to give up on your culture completely. It would certainly help things if the moderates over there would speak up from time to time. Maybe actually say that Israel isn’t the center of evil in the world? Or do you shoot you if you do that?
Re(1): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Mahmood:
[quote]The people who are against you are those most set to lose influence and wealth, those then by definition are some of the Arab leaders, not the common people.[/quote]
I wish I could believe this, but Osama is a hero to the common people. The common people volunteer to join the Jihad in Kashmir and Chechnya and Palestine and now Iraq. I fear that all too many of the common people have already been lost to the enemy.
I believe that the middle class understands the danger of religious extremism, but you are a small group in the Arab world, and you have so little power. Even in Iran, with perhaps the largest and most educated middle class, the thugs and murderers maintain brutal control.
You’re right when you say it will take time to reform; but I’m afraid that time may be running out.
I wish I could be optimistic, but these are dark days…
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
You raise intersting points … but, (and dont you just love those buts…)
1. What is the difference between Al Jazeera and Fox? The images that you see on Al J’s that make you want to give up on our culture can be matched, word for word, image for image, when I switch on Fox and I see story after story about how many pregnant Israeli women were killed (while the Palestinians remain as statistics). Both Fox and Al J’s are victims of the ratings game. Period.
2. What is the difference between George Bush and Hizbollah? They both think they have God on their side?!!
3. What makes you think that you will get thanks for offering a service that was never asked for to begin with? When,in reality, all you were really ever interested in was safeguarding your oil interests? (And, beleive you me, if I were sitting in the White House, I would do exactly the same). The only difference is that I would have spent a bit more time, energy and money planning the damn thing. And I would have eased up on the moral rhetoric a bit. And I wouldnt have gone in alone. I would have taken all the help that I could have gotten.
4. Topping the Taliban and Saddam has not done more for Islam. it has actually strengthened the hands of the extremists, my friend. The extremists that you were very quick to make friends with during the Soviet occupation of Afganistan.
Create an enemy – kill it – and then expect thanks??!! hahahaha. Incidentally – the view on Israel? Let me see what would happen if 60 minutes every decided to do a show on how Israel and its policies are underwritten by US tax dollars. I would bet you dinner at Mortons that the show would never air. because of censorship.
If we are to discuss – then lets call a spade a spade. We know we have fundamental issues in our part of the world. And beleive me, they are being battled out as we speak. 9/11 was not just a shock to the States – it was even a bigger shock back home. And we are still struggling with it. If you dont beleive me – look at the war being waged within Saudi Arabia at the moment. (you may want to watch/ read the BBC though – I am not sure Fox would pick up the nuances … 😉
Re(1): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
🙂 you had better make mine a double at the rate that i’m going !!!
Re(1): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
[quote]The problem is, if you really wanted to bring ‘freedom
Re(2): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
My friend ..
I think you have ended up believeing in your own rhetoric for entering the war. When did the justification ever switch from WmD’s to modernizing the Arab world? After it became clear that there were no WMD’s in Iraq?
I am going to bed. I would, suggest, that you take a lesson from the book of history and start looking back at how the Brits and the French became colonialist. They started like you .. they found an area that had resources that they found valuable .. and voila!!
It aint a land grab? Its about idealism???
Yeah. Right.
Politics 101 buddy. Why isnt that idealism being applied in Africa?!
sweet dreams.
Re: How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
[quote]What is the difference between Al Jazeera and Fox?[/quote]
I would say that AJ’s outright lies (Marine snipers targetting children?) and inducement to violence are the main differences. Fox has a slant, no doubt, but I’m not aware of it openly lying about anything. The pro-Israeli bias is American-wide, don’t blame Fox for it. The Palestinian culture’s glorification of mass murder has turned us off to them. Funny how that works.
[quote]What is the difference between George Bush and Hizbollah? They both think they have God on their side?!! [/quote]
So does every religious person on the planet. But I’d say the key difference is that Bush doesn’t condone murder, while Hizbollah glorifies murder.
[quote]What makes you think that you will get thanks for offering a service that was never asked for to begin with? [/quote]
Iraqis didn’t ask to be free from Saddam? Strange, I took the ’91 rebellion as evidence that they did.
[quote]When,in reality, all you were really ever interested in was safeguarding your oil interests? [/quote]
Let’s not drag this absurd theory out. If all we wanted was oil, we would have bought it from Saddam. Maybe you haven’t noticed, but we don’t have any qualms buying oil from tyrants (hint: begins with an “S” and ends with a “audi”).
[quote]Topping the Taliban and Saddam has not done more for Islam. it has actually strengthened the hands of the extremists, my friend.[/quote]
Perhaps, in the short term. What happens in the long term remains to be seen; the Taliban certainly aren’t the power they were five years ago. But who was the last Muslim leader who took a stand against repression? When was the last time a Muslim leader spoke out against the injustices of Muslim governments to their own people? I hear lots of blaming things on the Jews, but not much more than that.
At least we’re trying, which is more than Muslims seem to be doing.
[quote]what would happen if 60 minutes every decided to do a show on how Israel and its policies are underwritten by US tax dollars.[/quote]
And how often does Al-Jazeera point out the billions in aid the US gives to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the Palestinians? Can I guess? Is it never?
[quote]We know we have fundamental issues in our part of the world. And beleive me, they are being battled out as we speak.[/quote]
I don’t believe that the battle is being waged with your hearts. As long as your media and your governments continue to blame the Jews for everything, the problem will remain, and grow. And when the next batch of lunatics manages to sneak a nuke into New York, do you know what the response will be? I don’t think you realize how close to the end your culture is stepping. You can’t clamp down on extremists while you continue to pump billions into madrassas and while your state media continues to call Jews “apes and pigs”. Cosmetic changes won’t solve this problem. You need to acknowledge as a culture that Wahhabism is a medieval relic and a tool of murderers. And I just don’t see that happening.
Re(3): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Because Africans don’t fly airliners into our skyscrapers.
We need to eliminate militant Islam. We have two options: modernize the Muslim world, or reduce it to rubble. The toppling of Saddam was the first option. And Bush was clear about the objectives, just read his speech to the UN in September of 2002.
Re(2): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
You’re on!
Now, I’d better shut up and get to the airport! See you on my return.
Re: How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Terri said something along the lines of ‘the guys should be hung by the ball and the girl gang raped’ That’s the same thinking that got those soldiers in trouble. I agree that they should be punished, but in a humane way. Using the same methods as former abusers is producing hatred on both sides, and similar interrogation methods. Some justice tempered with mercy, or at least some sensitivity training, may work wonders.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
“You need to acknowledge as a culture that Wahhabism
is a medieval relic and a tool of murderers.”
My dear friend .. if you were to really understand what is happeneing in Saudi Arabia today you would realize that the battle for hearts and minds IS taking place there!!!!!
Do you realize that the Wahhabis and the Taliban only recognize one form of Islam? That they think Shia’s are ‘non entities’ and ‘non people’? That they think that anyone who doesnt look like them, talk like them and act like them shouldnt have a right to exist? You dont think that the multi cultured multi ethnic Middle East recognizes this?? And struggles with this? When I talk about the battle between Qum and Najaf in Shia leadership – do you know what this means? Does Wilayat Al Faqih mean anything to you? If it doesnt, then you had better go and do some more reading before you pontificate about the arabs and moslems and even wahhabism for that matter.
Incidnetally – madrassas are mostly a pakisani phenomenon.
And, alot of the Moslem angst and anger in Europe have nothing to do with Wahhabi roots. Algerians and Moroccans have zero to do with Wahabbism – so how do you explain what is happeneing in Europe? Or the fact that so many of these hijackers had some roots in Europe?
Wake up my friend … it aint a one size fits all policy, or religion, or culture. Not all Arabs are Wahabbis. Hell, not all Arabs are even Moslems!
And, fyi – the ’91 rebellion didnt succeed for one reason – because the US allowed the Iraqis to control air space – and the Shia rebellion was crushed before it even began.
One last point – this whole war is about oil. And I will bet you everthing that I own, that if the terorists were to start bombing oil installations in Saudi Arabia, then the US govt (along with the Brits and probably France and Germany and all the countries who were part of the ’91 coalition and stayed out of the recent war) would enter to safeguard the most important resource that the world has which is concentrated in one area. And you know what? I would have not problem with that. In fact, I would have less of a problem with that than I did with the claim that you are there to ‘liberate’ and ‘modernize’ the Middle East!!
And, I dont hear anyone blaming Israel for our woes. I certainly don’t. I think that we are responsible for our future. I think that because of colonialism and oil, we were never allowed to develop organically. There has always been outside influences. And, we didnt have the luxury of coming from the ‘old world
Re(4): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
‘We need to eliminate militant Islam’.
hahaha.
errrm … who created militant Islam?? when was the phrase coined? also … how do you explain the fact that as soon as the great soviet ‘evil empire’ collapsed – a ‘new’ enemy emerged from the rubble? ‘the axis of evil’?????
You cant eliminate militant islam. You couldnt eliminate the need for African Americans to want to become free during slavery. You couldnt eliminate the need for Women in the States to want to be able to vote when they had no voice. You cant stop the natural process of evolution – no matter how much you try.
Incidentally – you, as Americans,funded the IRA quite a bit when they were fighting their own ‘freedom war’. oooops, sorry .. ‘terrorist war’. (funny, how we get confused between the two .. 😉 The British Givernment couldnt stop militant IRA members by force either now, could they. (And, of course, let us not look further than Israel and Palestine – and see how you cannot forcibly stamp out an entire race or region by force. Hitlet learned that lesson too, did he not?
Funny – how history repeats itself. If only we, as humans, were better students and learned a thing or two about the patterns of hisotry and not look at the world in light of the last 10 years alone.
Re(3): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
It’s not clear that there were no WMDs in Iraq. We just haven’t found any yet. The whole Iraqi arsenal of WMDs could fit in a large swimming pool. Or a large pit in the desert.
We did find a network of covert labs for making WMDs. That’s kind of like finding apple trees without apples. There are likely apples somewhere about. We know that there are stockpiles of WMD such as mustard gas, tons of it, which Saddam admitted to possessing but for which no accounting has been made. It’s there in Iraq somewhere. Mustard gas stays viable for generations.
I don’t believe Saddam just woke up one day and gave up his WMDs out of the goodness of his heart. I believe that he disposed of them somewhere. Maybe buried them. Maybe stashed them in Syria. The would be bombers in Jordan had VX nerve gas. Maybe that came from Iraq’s stash.
Certainly, once the pressure was lifted, Saddam would have gladly bought nukes, nuke designs, and/or nuke components from Dr. Khan’s Nuke Shop in Pakistan. Or perhaps from North Korea. Any way you slice it, Saddam would have been a threat to America and his neighbors.
We don’t want Iraq. That’s the difference between the French and British colonialists and America. There is no American dreaming about owning a vacation home in Baghdad. The French and the British were there to stay. We are there to leave. We would not be in the Middle East at all had not Arab Muslim terrorists struck us on Sep 11. It is much cheaper and easier to just buy Iraqi oil from whatever thug is in charge than to take over Iraq. We don’t want Iraq.
Arabs have been sending terror teams against America and American assets for decades now. Slowly, our airports have been turned into something like minimum security prisons. Now, with the defenses hardened there, the terror is turning against office buildings. Next are shopping malls. Slowly the Islamic terror would turn America into one big sandbagged bunker, had we allowed it.
We will not defeat terrorists by waiting around to see where they will attack next. We will defeat them by taking the fight to them where they live. The cold fact is that since we invaded the Middle East, there have been no terror attacks in our home. We have shifted the fight from cowardly jihadis cutting the throats of defenseless stewardesses to armed soldiers in body armor shooting cowardly jihadis. That is an improvement.
That’s why we fight in Iraq.
Steve
Re(4): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Dear Steve,
Well argued and well said. And, if one were to look at foreign policy purely and only as a reactive situation to 9/11 – then i would have to agree with your assessment 100%.
Except – it didnt start with 9/11.
It started well before.
It started with the US coming out of its isolationist policies during the world war, and developing a foreign policy. It started with the US becoming an economic power and the desire to maintain its economic superiority. It started with the US playing power politics and making decisions sometimes as a result of the lesser of the two evils.
If I were an American citizen today – I would be sacred s**tless today when I look round me. And, I dont mean scared of terorism. But, of we got there in the first place!
I would wonder about the wisdom of having a Middle Eastern policy that is totally dictated by Israel. (Not that I have anything against Israel – I am just gobsmacked at the price that the US is willing to pay!) I would wonder why, not even a month after 9/11 – the case for the battle in Iraq was over .. it was just a quesiton of when. I would wonder why, the US ever made the decision to go into Iraq to remove Saddam subcontracting out security and interrogation!!! I would wonder why Halliburton got the position that it did in the reconstruction in Iraq. I would wonder why the Bush administration did nothing with UbL even though the Clinton administration had highlighted it as a problem. I would wonder why if terrorism financing was an issue in 1992 – then why did it take almost 10 years to play out? Who benfited from waiting?
But, most of all, I would wonder how the US thought that it could do the right thing in Iraq with such few resources, such little wisdom, and without much respect for the downside!!! How they throught that they would end up with a non religious based government in Iraq. How they thought that all the economic decisions would be made, with the political process folowing later – without any fallout? How they thought they could manage sectarianism in Iraq?
Let me tell you what scares me as an Arab. With the s**t going down in Saudi the way it has been, what would happen when some fundy decides to blow up an oil installation on the east coast? And as a result, oil markets shoot up to the roof. And as a result, the International Community decides it has to step in to safeguard the world’s largest producer of oil. And then the average Arab on the street looks to the last country that has just gone through this (Iraq) and realizes that any hope for a stable future has just been wiped out. Then what happens? We have a whole fr**ging generation of kids that have nothing to lose, and alot to prove.
Welcome to the gates of hell.
Re: How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
[quote]My dear friend .. if you were to really understand what is happeneing in Saudi Arabia today you would realize that the battle for hearts and minds IS taking place there!!!!! [/quote]
Oh, I know it is — the problem is that you CAN’T OPENLY ADMIT WHO THE ENEMY IS. You have the ROYAL FAMILY funding the extremists, and you can’t admit it. So you can’t stop the funding. You have your own RELIGIOUS LEADERS brainwashing your children to become murderers, but you won’t admit it, so you can’t stop the problem.
The battle is definitely being fought, but the forces of reform will NEVER win in the current environment. Until LOTS of Arabs start OPENLY talking about what a disaster fundamentalist Islam is.
[quote]One last point – this whole war is about oil.[/quote]
How, specifically? Since we already had access to the oil, and since the war cost us hundreds of billions, what possible advantage to waging the war to get access to oil we already had access to? Rather than spouting a cliched conspiracy, can you give me facts?
[quote]I dont hear anyone blaming Israel for our woes. I certainly don’t.[/quote]
I guess you don’t listen to the Saudi princes, then.
http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/Default.pl?id=9859
[quote]I think that because of colonialism and oil, we were never allowed to develop organically.[/quote]
Oh, poor babies, you were colonies. So was Japan, Germany, South Korea, China, Thailand, they seem to have done fairly well. Maybe because they don’t whine and blame others for their problems? Or is it the fact that they’re not beholden to a backwards, medieval sect that treats women like cattle and took decades to accept the dangerous and infidel concept of the [i]telephone[/i]?
Oil and colonialism aren’t your problems. A blind adherence to a 1200 year old book is your problem.
Re(1): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Oh, and by the way, while I’m mentioning former COLONIES:
The United States; Canada, New Zealand; Australia; South Africa; Hong Kong. All somehow managed to do alright.
Re(5): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
[quote]Except – it didnt start with 9/11.
It started well before.[/quote]
Correct. It started when the House of Saud made a devil’s bargain with an medieval religious sect to gain control of Arabia. The same sect that now controls the holy places, and the same sect to which Osama belongs.
[quote]I would wonder about the wisdom of having a Middle Eastern policy that is totally dictated by Israel.[/quote]
If our policy was dictated by Israel, we probably wouldn’t be propping up the Egyptian and Jordanian governments.
[quote]Welcome to the gates of hell.[/quote]
As Arabs, it’s your responsibility to get your house in order. May I suggest you start with some honesty; for example, acknowledging that was Israel does to Muslims is a drop in the bucket next to what Muslims do to Muslims. Can you do that? How about admitting that your governments are all tyrannies, and need to be replaced? Can you do that? How about making some noise when they jail your journalists? Can you do that? How about objecting when the Iranian mullahs send chain and knife-weilding thugs to brutalize crowds of peaceful protesters; can you do that?
Re(2): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
god bless the english and the queen then. get the americans the hell out of here, and get us some trim and proper english gentlemen (preferably no brummies, their accent is no good).
Re(1): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
OK. This is my last effort to try and explain a point of view in a manner that is fair and comprehensive. But first, let me tell you that I find your tone extremely arrogant and offensive. You would learn much by listening instead of attakcing. And if you want people to admit their failings, you would be much more effective by first admitting yours.
Re Saudi Arabia.
In all honesty, I do not think that the enemy today is the Saudi Royal Family. I think that because of mis governance in the past, we ended up with a demographic situation in Saudi that is scary – a majority of the population well below the age of 30. GDP per capital dropping significantly. And a rise in islamic fundamentalism because of no forseeable future.
I think the enemy today in Saudi Arabia are these young recruits for Al Qaeda et al. The question to be asked is – why are these kids so willing to blow themselves up for a cause?
The irony is – these kids beleive what you do – that the enemy is AL Saud. And, as such, are doing their damndest to bring them down.
I am not even a Saudi – and in all honesty, I dont care much for them. However, I am interested in stability. And therefore, I beleive in reform via evolution and not via revolution. And because I live in Bahrain, what happens to Saudi will have an effect on us. So, I watch carefully.
I dont think Wahhabism is such a big deal. I think what we really need to work on is what kind of hope is being offered to people in terms of what they can expect from their lives. Most of these kids are growing up in more poverty than their parents. Thats not a good sign for social stability.
As for ‘backwards medieval sects’. Arent you being a bit judgemental there my friend? Remember the Catholic church in the early days? Remember the power it had? And still does? Remember the burning of witches at the stake?
As for treating women like cattle – look – let me tell you – i wouldnt want to be reincarnated as a women living in poverty in Saudi. But, what irks me is that you only gave ur women the right to vote in the 20’s!!!! And the civil rights movement only got established in the 60’s!!!! So – it took you guys 200 years yourself! Were the hell do you come off making judgements about what is happeneing in another part of the world when you had to learn ur own lessons in ur own time????? (And there are still certain Golf Clubs and Mens’ clubs that wont allow women or blacks in .. so easy on the holier than thou attitude… and remember, the Moslem world has a few women leaders, the US has none – yet. So, please differentiate between Islam and culture)
My dear friend … let me tell you the options as I see it. There is a civil war happeneing. Establishment vs Opposition. Al Saud (if u wish to call it that) – vs the people. Establishment will give me stability. The People will install an al Qaeda type Islamic republic of Arabia. And it aint gonna be like Iran where civil society in Iran already had a personal effects law and women were in all branches of government including the Supreme Court. It will be a Taliban type deal where they are going to fight for ideology.
I am for Establishement.
Once that war is over, then I will voice my opposition within a legal framework and push for a consititional monarchy with checks and balances in the system. And maybe ask for a change in the Ministry of Education and ask for different syllabi etc.
But first, I would want stability.
And you know what? There are many like me in this part of the world. We would be considered the silent liberals that have actually stayed out of the recent political discourses. What you need to recognize is that the people clamouring for change agains their leadership are actually going to be worse than what you have already. I beleive that 100%. The difference between you and I is that I live here – and I see the difference in ideology between the two.
If I am willing to give my own leadership a break and support them on their reform process, and my own jury is out because my nose senses how sensitive and volatile this region is about to become – and I want to see how the dust settles – then who the hell are you to tell me what I should and should not be doing??
Also – do you realize that the US position in Iraq has actually fueled setarianism in the Gulf? I have asked you this question before. Do you know the difference between Qom and Najaf? And do you know how this would affect what is happeneing in Saudi Arabia?
The world does not revolve around Wahhabism. Or Al Saud. Get rid of the rhetoric and start asking real questions and getting real answers. And until you delve deeper and show me that you understand the issues we are dealing with in this part of the world – I will tell you to keep your ideas to yourself. Because – you would be making the same mistake that Wolfowitz made by entering Iraq in the first friggin place. You thought you would be received as liberators? Ha! Maybe you were too quick to beleive Chalabi et al. I am sure he gave you a synopsis of Iraq that was as easy to absorb as instant coffee. Well .. you are learning the hard way.
One last thing re Israel. You HAVE to sort out your relationship with Israel if you want to foster some kind of real peace in the Middle East. Let me tell you, the mood here on the street has shifted significantly against the US in the last 10 years. This is in the Gulf, where you have alot of allies. You need to ask yourselves why. Oh – and incidentally – your new base in Qatar??!! Have you ever wondered where the Al Thani come from and how close they are in their interpretation of Islam as the Saudi’s? You might find out a thing or two about your precious Wahabbis!!!!
Re(6): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Are you talking to me as an Arab? A Moslem? A Bahraini? I am not sure who you want me to be honest with regarding what issue?! why should i in bahrain make a point about what is happeneing in iran? (and dont even get me started on iran – its the closest thing that u have to how the war for ideology can be played out in the gulf! and u r ignoring them ..)
Its like me telling you that as an American you need to be held responsable for the born again evangelical christianity that Dubya is displaying and holding you responsible for what ‘the West’ is doing.
You might want to start by asking me how I personally identify myself, how I see myself. What I think about my own government. And where I would push for reform.
I dont think all our governments are tyrannies. I do think that some are severely disfuncitonal. I think there is lack of accoutability and performance measurement. I think there is abuse of power. And I think 9/11 is proof of that.
But, I also see what the alternative is. And I dont like it. The opposition want power, are willing to use religion to back them up (like most opposition movements), and I dont see a real economic agenda in any of their rhetoric. Which means that their ability to recruit angry hungry despairing kids is not going to dimish over time.
So – I am pro establishment. And I beleive in civil disobedience. And I will continue to do so. And I will contribute 100% to evolution. But not to revolution.
And, I will support what our own government is trying to do and I will push for dialogue and for peace. Because – to rush foolishly into pandora’s box without thinking has real painful repercussions that might not even be effective. I would never have gone into Iraq. Not without a full understanding of the situation on the ground. And I think it is becoming painfully obvious that the US administration did not have a full understanding on the ground.
So .. all I can say is .. if you are really trying to understand this part of the world – then try and listen. And try and understand before you make any judgements. And whatever you do, do not use the US model and paradigm and apply it over here. it doesnt work. you wont get the full picture. like chalabi never gave u the full picture.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Good Grief Charlie Brown! Alot of what has been posted here from both sides is true, but there are some other stuff that’s subjective as well. It’s like a catch 22 for all of us, and where is the answer?
I don’t have the answer either, but I think the events of the last few years have cause everyone in the world to stop and think about global issues seriously for a change. I actually think for the first time that we may be getting there as a human race. It is not unlike the many discussions my husband, an ex-marine, and I had before the war. He was against it, and I cautiously supported it. No matter how much I still go over things in my mind after all this time, I keep coming back to-no more! Stability is one thing; but the UN doesn’t work, and we have all tuned a blind eye and lived with the status quo forever. There have been changes is the ME, but maybe that’s all this was about. Maybe it was to just hurry the process along, admitted a strange way, and say no more.
Sorry, I know these comments sound weird.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
What a facinating discussion! I just skimmed it, but what amazes me is the level of reason in posts. Even bigots admit some of their bigotry, and nascent flame wars get quickly doused. Posters here actually [i]think[/i]!
While I agree in principle with “few bad apples” argument, I am affraid that this “few” is much more than those six morons. It seems that prisoner abuse was instigated by intelligence types, some of them military, some from private “operators”. The very idea of using Sadam’s prison is infathomable, but so is keeping illegal [i]”lager”[/i] in Guantanamo. When will types like “the empire builder” Wolfowitz understand that such things are, apart from being illegal and morally wrong, counterproductive?
BTW, congratulations for the most interesting site, Mahmood! I found a link to it on [url]http://muttawa.blogspot.com[/url], a blog run by an “underground” Saudi, another fascinating place.
[url=http://bnz.blogspot.com]Bonzi[/url], Zagreb, Croatia
Re(6): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Very interesting points, and I agree with most of what you say. One thing I think our “allies” in the region don’t understand is how loathed the Saudis are now in America. Our government still plays footsy with the murdering SOBs, but I don’t know a single person who has an ounce of respect for the Saudi government. If Bush announced tomorrow that the bombs were about to drop on Riyadh, I think most Americans would be glad.
The Saudi regime is the antithesis of everything that we hold dear, from gender rights to freedom of religion to the separation of Church and state. It is pure evil.
The Saudi government has dedicated itself to killing Americans, and the American public understands this. There will be an accounting, it’s only a matter of time.
Re: How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
This is hardly a temperate nor reasonable response. In fact, nearly all those involved were punished months before the story broke in the press. The US military moved immediately when a soldier reported the abuse back in December/January. Most of the punishments were assigned within a couple months. A full report was made by a general officer. All of this happenned long before the press knew the story.
There is no organization in which all of its members will behave to its expectations. The swiftness and appropriateness of the punishment demonstrates the standards the US military sets and maintains for its members. To be blunt, the rest of the world should take note what the US military does to its wrong-doers and strive to emulate its high moral standard.
Steve
Re(7): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
I think Americans in general see the Saudis as duplicitous but don’t know the details. The details of the Saudi support of Al Qaeda and Wahhabi terror are not generally known. They don’t have a feeling for the depth of Wahhabi hatred for the West and America. The Saudi embassy does a good job of muting the true face of the Saudis.
Steve
Re(8): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Steve ..
The Hashemite Kingdom of Arabia????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Puuullllleeeeeeaaaaaasssssssseeeeeeeee ….
The Hashemites were originally from Arabia. Jordan was created as an artifical entity. You tried to instate a hashmite kingdom in Iraq and you ended up with Saddam. You trieed to stop Mosadeq in Iran and you ended up with the fall of the Shah Khomeini. You tried to create the Hashemite Kingdom of Palestine and you ended up with suicde bombing.
Steve, (and the rest of the ideological neo cons out there) .. I have one sentence for you. It aint gonna work. You cannot create and destroy regimes in other countries on your own.
The reason that anti American is growing in the Gulf is the same reason that it is growing in most parts of the world. it is becasue you are still learning how to be the world’s only superpower, and we, the rest of the world, are paying the price for your growing pains. It aint about Wahhabism buddy.
Dont create an enemy because it allows you to justify what you want to do. What you dont realize – is that most of us here, in the Gulf, see through the political rhetoric that our govt dishes out – and as a result – we see through the political rehtoric that the US govt dishes out. We don’t buy it.
And you know what? Neither do the populations in most other countries. Including, the average Joe in America who is (finally) starting to ask the right questions and understand how power politics actually play out in the real world.
I am powerless to stop your foreign policy towards the Gulf and to Saudi Arabia in specific. I dont have an army. Just a computer and internet access. But, if you destabilize Saudi after having destabilized Iraq … you will have a whole army of bearded ones with nothing except religion to give them meaning ….
Steve .. you need people like me, a liberal, relatively pro American, beleiver in the free market and proper democratic insitutions who beleive in evolution and not revolutin .. you need people like me to fight for the principles that u hold so dear. You need me to stir up debates locally on Islam et al.
however, what you dont realize, is that by taking the position that you are – i end up taking one step back .. because I am not so sure that you really beleive want whats good for us …
i dont want your definitition of democracy at the price that the iraqis are paying. you had no idea of what it would cost – you are still learning. and, quite frankly, i dont want to be part of the test tube process in the lab of exporting american ideology. go experiment somewhere else.
i’ll take the long road there.
Re: How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Great Site Thx Mahmood
Alright I am gonna cautiously wade in here ….. seems there are 2 issues we must deal with regarding the prisoner abuse
1) was the abuse systematic (i.e under orders of military intelligence)
or
2) was the abuse the actions of a few “bad apples”
If it was the first then I am afraid we are in for a very rough ride because the whole justification for the war (the new version mind you as opposed to WMD) will have been undermined and the moral legitimacy of the United States will be damaged for years to come. That would be bad us as Arabs (Bahraini I might add) and bad for Americans as well ..
If it was the actions of a few then it will blow over and accountability will take its course … although I am loathe to let 6 grunts take the fall for a clear case of command failure. War brings out the best and the worst in people .. its a true leaders role to prevent the worst from manifesting itself. I dont blame the grunts .. I blame the officers .. some of those kids could probably not by a drink legally in the US for Godsakes..
Regardless of which of the above is true, what happened in abu ghuraib is very serious … It wasnt “harmless”… there are investigations of 30 deaths in military prisons according to Senator Hagel on Face the Nation … also as Rummy said there is worse to come .. the Washington Post quotes senior military officials as saying … “that there were photos of Americans watching Iraqi Guards sodomizing minors” …. “video of an American soldier raping an Iraqi woman”….. “and pictures of American soldiers posing and playing with dead bodies …”
So lets get this straight this is SERIOUS! .. I think all we can do is wait for the truth to come out and make our own judgements….
As to the debate of East versus West and the role of Gulf War 2 in it… I have to agree with an earlier poster who said that it is the open society (press freedom, NGO’s etc) that make a difference between Saddam and the United States…. If this was Iraq under Saddam u wouldnt hear about it at all … Now that its the US we will hear about it in all its gory detail …. granted that might take years but we will ….. Notice I am not commenting on the capacity of human beings from any culture or religion to commit terrible things.. we are all capable of it. What we choose to do about it and how we respond to the ugly truth once its laid at our feet is what makes us different…. and the jury is still out on that one!
I will say this … we should all work to a more open society because throughout our history we have all made terrible mistakes … So for that reason I would like to move beyond the blame game. Both sides blaming eachother for their ills is plain wrong … and making blanket statements about one country or another is shallow and superficial (ie Saudi Arabia is bad, America is bad) we should instead focus on what needs to be done to fix this situation…..
My plan is simple .. lets get pragmatic…
War: The War Agaist Terror
Enemy: Islamic fundamentalists who are willing to kill large numbers of civilians (note: they kill westerners and arabs too) … and I dont mean all islamic parties .. just the ones that support violence.
In effect, choose your war .. define your enemy and lets get on with it… thats what the generation who won the cold war did…
Please Dont fight this war to bring full democracy to the middle east unless you are willing to accept the islamic republic of iraq … but Do support moves to create a civil society and start the democratic process… once the ball is rolling it wont stop… Evolution not Revolution
Please Dont crap on Al-Saud who are at this moment engaged in a bitter fight for survival against the very same terrorists u want to defeat ….. Do aknowledge that they are your best hope for defeating this problem inside the kingdom and if managed correctly are your natural allies … and like in the cold war sometimes u need allies u dont particularly like….!
Please understand that if we get a iraq that is stable, free of weapons of mass destruction and not hostile to the west u have won….. Please dont believe the crap that u can go from dictatorship to democracy in a day and a night
Please Do something about Arab/Isreali conflict that dosnt smack of partisanship…. Btw I dont give a damn about leaders here … I care about ordinary palestinians and isrealis who number in thier millions…. Please Be as hard on Isreali settlements as u are on suicide bombings… and that goes for walls too … reminds us too much of Berlin .. unfortunately this time its the US standing by while its built….
Please Dont encourage secreterianism… as far as I am concerned, a person who identifies him/herself with his religion or ethnicity alone is a fool and backward as hell …. Please Do support those who care about Iraq whether they be shia, sunni or damn hari krishna!
Please realize that somethings are worth fighting for ….
Re: How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
[quote]My problem with this situation is the shock I received when presented with these photographs. How can the civilisation I hold in such high regard, the civilisation which I try to emulate in as much as the respect human rights, for popular participation in government, and responsibility even allow such a thing to happen?
[/quote]
It looks like it happenned for pretty ordinary reasons. There was a flood of prisoners, many more than expected, probably due to the unexpected resistance by Saddam’s loyalists. We expected them to give up and run like the Nazis, not stand and fight for Saddam, who was hardly worth the effort. That still puzzles us. We expected every sane Iraqi to hurry Saddam on his way and end their resistance once he was beaten. Such was not the case. The net result was more prisoners than we ever expected.
There was tremendous pressure to extract intelligence from the prisoners to discover cells of guerrillas so as to break them up, stopping loss of American lives. When you are pressured, you take shortcuts. It’s easy to say screw it and descend to harsher, easier measures.
The large number of prisoners required more guards, so GIs were pressed into guard duty who were not trained to perform those duties. It’s no surprise that untrained people perform poorly. If you asked a plumber to wire your house, a doctor to write your will, or a car mechanic to fix your computer, it is doubtful you will admire the results. Pulling infantrymen in to perform guard duty in a prison was expedient but not wise. We don’t admire the results.
The commanders were lax. If the commander of the prison knew what was going on under her command, it’s doubtful it would have reached this stage. She should have known. Under a good commander, the rules of operation are well known right down to the lowest private. If nothing else, guards would not feel so comfortable doing this in the open if the commander got off her big fat ass and walked around her own command at random. Nothing gets by a good commander. A good commander knows everything that happens on his post.
My own experience is that most people are unprincipled, young people more so than older people. They do not check their behavior based on an inner sense of right and wrong but rather are checked by their environment, by what behavior will bring them gain or loss in their clique. When you remove those constraints on how to treat other people, most people’s behavior will descend to the new expanded checks on them. When the guards found themselves free to abuse prisoners at Abu Ghraib without any negative consequence, they descended into abuse for sport.
Steve
Re(9): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
[quote]Dont create an enemy because it allows you to justify what you want to do.[/quote]
What do we “want to do”?
Look, we would rather have nothing to do with your entire region. We see it as a medieval backwater. The sight of a woman in a burkha turns our stomachs.
We didn’t “make” militant Islam an enemy. Militant Islam did that all by itself. But your attempts to gloss over the evils of the House of Saud are disturbing. Do you not realize what the Saudi education system teaches? Not even the Soviets in the depths of the cold war were so openly antagonistic to the West.
The Saudi culture as currently directed by the Saudi government is the antithesis of the West. Where we value tolerance, they EXECUTE those who dare to be different. If the Saudis were content to keep their 11th century ideology to themselves, we might be content to look away, but when they start funding it worldwide, we are forced to confront it.
We’d all much, much rather turn back to our pop singer pedophile scandals and Mars probes, and leave your part of the world to rot or evolve as it sees fit. But that option has been taken away from us. And if you think we’re throwing our weight around now, wait until one of your misguided sons detonates a nuke in Madrid or Chicago.
What amazes me is that you don’t see the connection between the bile being pumped out of the mosque down your street and the young Saudis who flew those planes into the WTC. You really think there’s no connection?
I honestly suggest that moderate Arabs like you STOP sitting on the sidelines, because a passionate minority among you is trying to trigger a war which may well result in the destruction of all that you’ve built up. If there’s one thing history shows us, it’s that Americans can be the most bloodthirsty people on the planet. Pray we don’t have to learn that all over again.
It’s time for you to stop hoping and start making some noise.
Re(6): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Steve,
I posted earlier further below re my thoughts on the Hashemite Kingdom of Arabia.
I just reread your points, and with some time to think and absorb what you have to say – i have to admit to you – I am scared.
I am scared about your post and what the US administration has implicitly and explicitly signed up for re the Gulf – and specifically Saudi. It worries me that you actually think it is your perrogative to make judgements about Saudi oil revenues and Saudi oil. It worries me that you really honestly think that the princes vs. clerics war will really end with a regime that you think will further your own interests in the area. It worries me that you think that the war on iraq was won .. when I dont even think that it is even halfway over. It worries me when you say that sectarianism in Iraq has been overcome by intermarriage except for ‘jihadi’s and iranian agents.’
I dont even know what a ‘jihadi’ is. I do know what a terrorist is. But I dont get what u mean by a jihadi. It is not an arabic word.
Sectarianism? It doesnt look like you understand shia – sunni. And it doesnt look like u understand the difference between persian shia and arab shia. We have all sorts in Bahrain – and quite a few mixed marriages to boot. That doesnt mean that sectarianism is dead here. And it certainly aint dead in Iraq. Look at the economics behind it my friend. Look at how the wealth is distributed in Iraq, (and in Bahrain for that matter), and you will then understand the roots of sectarianism.
Your comments about Palestinians and Israelis and the Brits being to blame. You are right – but – without US support, flying in the face of world opinion – Israel would never be where it is today. Look at how many vetoes the UN has seen coming from the US on Israel. What about the Wall? I personally abhor suicide bombing. I think it is like a cancer that kills the very people it is trying to protect. But – you know why there is an endless stream of suicide bombers? it is because these people in palestine have nothing to lose … their lives are so horrible and they are insitutionally degraded every single day of their lives – they feel like they have no choice… the only artillery that the people have is their own bodies. Sick – but true. And a fact.
Mind you, I am not condoning what they do – nor rationalizing.
What I am saying is that it is a syptom of an underlying problem. If you really want to solve the problem – then deal with the viability of a Palestinian state. Let Bush actively support the peace process – and dont give me BS about the Palestinians not being worthy negotiatiors …
My worry is that suicide bombing has become the weapon of choice today. It started in Iraq. It is starting in Saudi. And – the whole region can explode.
You tell me – let it explode. The world is better off with the alternative.
I look at Afghanistan and Iraq – and I am not sure that you know how to create an alternative that is sustainable that leaves the average person on the street better off. There is nothing in your foreign policy in recent history that gives me any comfort whatsover that you can transalate your lovely sounding rhetoric of principles into actual pragmatic steps on the ground.
So, I worry.
Re(5): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
That’s quite a pessimistic rendering of events. Here’s my response, for better or worse.
[quote]I would wonder about the wisdom of having a Middle Eastern policy that is totally dictated by Israel. (Not that I have anything against Israel – I am just gobsmacked at the price that the US is willing to pay!)[/quote]
If our foreign policy were totally dictated by Israel, I doubt we would be sending billions in “foreign aid” to Arab thug governments. For example, I doubt Israel favors the US government equipping Egypt with F-16s or Saudi Arabia with F-15s.
It certainly would have been better had Israel set up shop somewhere other than in the middle of a sea of Arab Muslims. Europe is to blame for that, not us. It looks like Israel pushed some Arabs out of the homes they had for generations. I also doubt the viability of any state based on religion. It’s hard to see how any such religious state could maintain itself as a democracy.
What turned my own opinion for Israel was the nature of the Palestinians. I can’t see trading an Israeli democracy for a Palestinian thug state, essentially run by Arafat’s mafia. The Palestinians have made it clear that their goal is the destruction of Israel and the Israelis. As a practical matter, you can not negotiate with such a position. The Palestinians have not shown themselves to be trustworthy negotiators. They don’t honor their agreements. This reinforces our worst stereotypes of Arabs.
What eliminated my last sympathy for the Palestinians were the videos of mothers sending their sons off on suicide missions to kill Israeli civilians, then collecting pay for their son’s death. The war on the Israeli civilians is sickening. This is heinous, inhuman, barbaric. I can not ever support such a barbarous people against a democracy.
If it’s a fight to the death, I favor Israel. It does not need to be a fight to the death. Had the Saudis and all the others who are willing to spend millions paying the Palestinians to be their proxies in a religious war against Israel instead invested that money in building up the Palestinians, they would garner my sympathy, even my admiration. Had they developed their economy instead of their arsenals, then Israelis would be crossing the border to pursue jobs in Palestine, rather than the reverse. Beyond the borders of Palestine, it appears that the war against Israel is a religious war of extermination by the Muslims. I can not support that either.
If you take an accountant’s view of the support for Israel, it’s a dead loss for the US. We certainly have poured more into Israel than we will ever get from it. We certainly won’t be squeezing any oil out of Israel. From the perspective of an American Republican, it’s a matter of principle. We are not going to allow a democracy be overrun and destroyed by barbarians.
If the Palestinians had formed a democracy under siege by Israeli tyranny, my position would be the reverse.
[quote]I would wonder why, not even a month after 9/11 – the case for the battle in Iraq was over .. it was just a quesiton of when.[/quote]
Iraq had made its case for war over years of evading UN weapons inspections and some 600 attempts to shoot down our jets patrolling the no-fly zones. There is also the matter of Iraq providing Ramzi Yousef and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the plotters of the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center, with false identities. Mohammed went on to plan the second attempt on Sep 11. There is also the matter of Mohammed Atta meeting with the Iraqi intel chief in Prague, an event that the Czechs still maintain despite efforts to dispute the claim. I think it is very likely that Saddam was the ultimate patron of the Sep 11 attacks, using Bin Laden who was all too willing to take the glory and his followers who were all too willing to gain paradise through martyrdom.
Iraq would remain an increasing threat to the US and its neighbors had we not acted. It is not a threat to us now.
[quote]I would wonder why, the US ever made the decision to go into Iraq to remove Saddam subcontracting out security and interrogation!!![/quote]
The contractors providing security do so for the CPA and other civilian organizations. It doesn’t make sense to tie up troops doing such low level tasks. I have read nowhere that contractors are performing interrogations. Instead, I read that contractors are not getting any intelligence reports from the military on local threats that could affect them. As I understand it, interrogations are being performed by the military and CIA.
[quote]I would wonder why Halliburton got the position that it did in the reconstruction in Iraq.[/quote]
Because it had the resources to do the job. Not many US companies have in-country contacts in the Middle East. It’s been common for the US government to make handshake deals with companies to get things done under the pressure of war. That happenned on a large scale in WWII. There is no time for government paperwork when the crisis is upon you. The fact is that Halliburton has done a good job at a reasonable price.
[quote]I would wonder why the Bush administration did nothing with UbL even though the Clinton administration had highlighted it as a problem. [/quote]
That’s hardly true. Clinton hardly engaged the terrorist threat and made no serious effort to neutralize Bin Laden.
[quote]I would wonder why if terrorism financing was an issue in 1992 – then why did it take almost 10 years to play out? Who benfited from waiting?[/quote]
As Clinton’s advisor Dick Morris said, Clinton did not take action against terror, or to be more accurate, Wahhabi Terror, because it did not appear in the polls. The difference is that Clinton was a follower of popular opinion while Bush is a leader.
Clinton benefitted in the short term by delaying action, thereby storing up trouble for the future.
[quote]But, most of all, I would wonder how the US thought that it could do the right thing in Iraq with such few resources, such little wisdom, and without much respect for the downside!!! [/quote]
Actually, we did conquer Iraq in about three weeks with probably less than ten thousand Iraqi casualties. By contrast, Iran and Iraq fought for something like ten years to a standstill with a million casualties. Talk about starting a war with little wisdom and no respect for the downside. I’d say we did pretty good with the resources we put in play.
[quote]How they throught that they would end up with a non religious based government in Iraq. [/quote]
Ask Kemal Attaturk about Turkey.
[quote]How they thought that all the economic decisions would be made, with the political process folowing later – without any fallout?[/quote]
I’m not really sure what you’re asking here. It seems like the major economic decision, getting the oil fields producing, was a no-brainer. Taking away the restrictions on the free market, another no-brainer. What other economic decisions are you talking about?
[quote]How they thought they could manage sectarianism in Iraq? [/quote]
Looks like it’s working out about as well as can be expected. Most of Iraq is peaceful. There doesn’t seem to be an outbreak of sectarian violence in Iraq. Looks like the mainstream Muslim clerics there are refraining from fighting each other. Sadr’s inflammatory calls for violence don’t seem to be catching fire. And of course, the Kurds are staying very peaceful.
As I understand it, the Iraqis have already put the lid on much of the potential sectarian violence by intermarrying. There are many Sunni-Shia marriages in Baghdad. Only the jihadis and Iranian secret agents are hoping to stir up violence between sects.
The main sources of violence are Saddam’s Sunni triangle, where the Sunnis don’t like being the privileged class any more.
[quote]Let me tell you what scares me as an Arab. With the s**t going down in Saudi the way it has been, what would happen when some fundy decides to blow up an oil installation on the east coast? And as a result, oil markets shoot up to the roof. And as a result, the International Community decides it has to step in to safeguard the world’s largest producer of oil. And then the average Arab on the street looks to the last country that has just gone through this (Iraq) and realizes that any hope for a stable future has just been wiped out. Then what happens? We have a whole fr**ging generation of kids that have nothing to lose, and alot to prove.[/quote]
With the benefit of hindsight, it was a mistake to deal honestly and fairly with the Saudis so as to put the windfall profits of their oil wells in their hands. While much of it was used in a good way to build their infrastructure, most of it was apparently siphoned off by corrupt princes or used to promote Wahhabi terror. The money we pay to fill our gas tanks returns to us as suicide jets full of evil Saudis seeking our deaths.
It seems to me that the profits of the Saudi oil industry would lead to a more stable Middle East and world if it were controlled by anybody other than the Saudis. Had we colonized the oil fields in eastern Arabia and directed the money to build up a modern state there, it would have led to a better end. The princes of the Saud family would have been still herding goats in the desert rather than betting millions in the casinos of Monte Carlo or spending billions on a worldwide jihad.
It’s the Saudis who contribute to destabilization of the region. You will have no hope of a stable future with Wahhabis running loose everywhere with plenty of money to make their bloody dreams come true. As an American, I am convinced that as long as the Saudis make billions from oil, they will continue to launch attacks on America. The Saudi state must end.
[quote]Welcome to the gates of hell. [/quote]
Saudi Arabia is hardly a large security threat nor does it present much of a military threat. The Saudi military is a joke. Perhaps it would be better for the world if Saudi Arabia were to descend into chaos, with the princes and the clerics killing each other off. When the smoke clears, perhaps it could be replaced by a Hashemite Arabia.
Steve
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
OK. I ended up finally registering!
Here goes my 2 cents on Saudi.
Contrary to what you write – Saudi culture is NOT directed by Saudi Government. In fact – the biggest worry in Saudi is that it doesnt look the government is in control of anything there at the moment!
The recent attacks from Riyadh to Yanbu tells me that aint all well in the Land of Al Saud. They aint all well with the terrorists. And they aint all well with our beloved fundies there. (I like the term .. short for fudamentalists – prolly a terrorist militant fundie. I still dont know who/what a Jihadi is).
I see the link in the financing flows that have happened with Isalmic charities that some overzealous bast***s sipohoned off into militant uses. I dont know enough to determine how organized and how much insituionalized support there is coming from the Saudi Govt. I would find it hard to see why the Al Saud would feed the hand that is choking them .. but thats just me.
I do know that the Saudi govt has FINALLY started fighting the fundies. After years of being too afriad to be called unIslamic – they are finally taking a position. Maybe it took the Riyadh bombings to mapterialize when they realized that the terrorists are sitting on their doorstep and want them out of the house.
Either way – I think you understimate what the Saudi leadership is trying to do. I also think that you give them way too much credit in terms of influencing how the average Saudi thinks. If only! The Saudi govt has v little credibility in the eyes of its own people. Thats why you have such a growth of fundies there!!
So – to blame them for supporting the terrosists? Nah. To hold them responsible for gross misconduct in leadership? Ok.
What I dont get is how you dont see that the battle for the ‘soul of Islam’ is being fought there??? Like it is being fought in Iran??
By the way -if seeing the sight of women covered is enough to make you sick – have u been to the Vatican lately?? Or a synagogue? Or any religious place?
As for me making noise? You have got to be kidding. I used to jump and down before. I am a lot quieter now. I am going to fight my battles – but I will choose them wisely. Democracy is a slow painful process of education. Maybe my kids or my grandkids will benefit. Right now – I would rather support my current leadership because I want the consistency and stability. The potential for regional instability is huge. (Thats how Sharon got relected, and will be why Bush gets relelcted … when in dark times – we all need a rock … )
Incidentally, the ‘bloodthirstiness’ of the Americans??!! Am I supposed to be scared of your wrath??!! Is this a pissing contest? Why would you even bother? You are the worlds only superpower – by far.
Noone doubts your strength and your military and economic muscle. (Maybe just your stamina … it aint size that matters buddy – its how long you last. And your performance in Vietnam wasnt that great in the end now, was it. Or in Beirut after the bombing of the barracks … you scurried out of town pretty damn quick …)
So .. if you are going to enter into the game of nation building (which, incidentally, wasnt your policy 2 years ago) – then make sure u understand the rules – and make sure u stick around till the last hand is dealt. Otherwise – it is extremely difficult to justify the price that is paid in human lives … whichever side you are looking at it.
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
It’s very interesting to get the perspective of our Arab friends. I’ll try and respond to some of your points.
My perspective is that of a liberal American (Democrat, Clinton-supporter) who supported the invasion of Iraq for a host of reasons, of which WMD was the least important.
Frankly, in my opinion the free world should as a matter of course attempt to overthrow tyrants. Saddam’s regime was not the representative of the Iraqi people, but their jailer. The UN’s inability to act against tyrants is sickening, although understandable when you consider that most of its members are tyrants.
[quote]Contrary to what you write – Saudi culture is NOT directed by Saudi Government.[/quote]
The Saudi government controls every word published in its press, every course taught in its schools and every sermon preached in its mosques. There is a blatant anti-Western bias in all three of those outlets, and so the facts clearly demonstrate that the Saudi’s — at least those controlling the press, the schools and the mosques — are anti-American.
When you add the Saudi global campaign to spread fundamental Islam, it becomes even more clear. The House of Saud, or at least sizable portions of it, has declared war on us. No other conclusion can be reached from where I stand. I know that there are some moderate elements in the government, but al-Saud is not one unified body but an enormous alalgam of various elements, some of which are psychotically conservative and whose very moral being is in direct opposition to everything that the West stands for. They understand that the Islam they practice cannot survive contact with our world, and so they try and limit and subvert that contact. Ultimately this medieval ideology will die out, but it’s a question of how many lives it will take in the process.
[quote]What I dont get is how you dont see that the battle for the ‘soul of Islam’ is being fought there???[/quote]
Accusing “the zionists” for militant Islam, as the bastard Naif just did, is not fighting for the soul of Islam. It’s selling out to the forces of evil. If the Saudis really wanted to defeat militant Islam, would they let it be preached, taught, and praised in their country? There is no battle for the “soul of Islam” being waged by the Saudis, only a battle for their own survival. They use Islam as a tool to brainwash their people and spread their hegemony.
[quote]By the way -if seeing the sight of women covered is enough to make you sick – have u been to the Vatican lately?? Or a synagogue? Or any religious place?[/quote]
I see a difference between women voluntarily covering up, and being beaten in the streets by stick-wielding psycopaths if they dare show an ankle. Call me crazy, but compulsory religious indoctrination, in my mind, is what the West has spent 500 years fighting, and yes, it does make me sick to my stomach.
To us, Saudi society is revolting. Just in the treatment of women alone, never mind the absurd education, the mutiliation of criminals, execution of homosexuals, the pervasive religious nonsense, the complete intolerance for any other way of life… it’s sickening.
[quote]Incidentally, the ‘bloodthirstiness’ of the Americans??!! Am I supposed to be scared of your wrath??!![/quote]
[b]I’m[/b] scared of our wrath. We’re fully able, mentally and morally, to decide that your civilization has to go — not Bahrain of course, but the fallout would probably make your neck of the woods uncomfortable for a few thousand years. Sure, we’ll feel bad afterwards, and probably help you rebuild just like we did the Japanese. But if you think Hiroshima is a relic of a bygone era, think again. I wish it weren’t so, but it really could happen.
Re(9): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
[quote]The Hashemite Kingdom of Arabia????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Puuullllleeeeeeaaaaaasssssssseeeeeeeee …. [/quote]
Very nearly anything is better than Saudi rule. I’d rather see Jordan in control of the oil fields than the Saudis. It might even be better for the Wahhabis to overthrow the Saudis and run Arabia into the ground until the people are sick of them, like Iran.
[quote]You cannot create and destroy regimes in other countries on your own. [/quote]
Actually, we can and have. However, I don’t consider it a first choice but a last choice.
[quote]The reason that anti American is growing in the Gulf is the same reason that it is growing in most parts of the world. it is becasue you are still learning how to be the world’s only superpower, and we, the rest of the world, are paying the price for your growing pains. It aint about Wahhabism buddy. [/quote]
I disagree. The Arab world has traditionally held the Western world in contempt. This contempt was in place long before America was even discovered. The current contempt Arabs hold for America over the last few decades merely play out the contempt the Arabs have held for centuries against the “Franks.” At the bottom of it all is a reactionary conservatism and a radical intolerance of other cultures.
[quote]Steve .. you need people like me, a liberal, relatively pro American, beleiver in the free market and proper democratic insitutions who beleive in evolution and not revolutin .. you need people like me to fight for the principles that u hold so dear. You need me to stir up debates locally on Islam et al. [/quote]
My impression is that people like you in the Arab world are rare birds, overwhelmed by an illiterate and radical population.
[quote]i dont want your definitition of democracy at the price that the iraqis are paying. you had no idea of what it would cost – you are still learning. and, quite frankly, i dont want to be part of the test tube process in the lab of exporting american ideology. go experiment somewhere else. [/quote]
And likewise, I’m not in favor of spending American lives and dollars on civilizing rogue nations like Iraq unless they prove so hostile and belligerent we have no other practical options. I would prefer to work things out through diplomacy and trade. That would not have ever worked in Iraq. It is very likely that Saddam would have acquired nukes, would have begun to produce WMDs again, and would have sponsored attacks on America.
[quote]i’ll take the long road there. [/quote]
My friend, the leisure to take the long road to democracy ended on the morning of September 11, 2002.
Steve
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
My dear friend Steve ..
Lets try this again.
I am not that much of an anomaly here in the Gulf or Bahrain for that matter. I may be able to communicate my thoughts in a language that you will understand, but the majority of people (in Bahrain, at least), have the same attitudes towards the US that I do.
The very vocal minority that are fundamentalist extremists in this part of the world are both your enemy … and mine. They also want to see a different leadership in this part of the world. A leadership that is based on their interpretation of Islam. (The ‘they’ depends on whether they are arab shia, persian shia, or sunni fundamentalists. and beleive you me, they are all different).
What 9-11 showed all of us, is that this minority cannot be allowed to grow at its own pace. They cannot afford to be ignored. I am a 100% supporter for the war on terror. What happened on 9-11 is appalling. There is no debate around that.
However, my issue with you is not re how we deal with these Isamic terrorists – or any other kind of terrorists. These terrorists hate America. Yeah – they also hate women. And modernization. And liberalization. And tolerance.
My issue with you is on US foreign policy in the area. It seems like you have made the decision that since these trerrorists ‘spoke’ with a loud voice -that means that all Arabs and Moslems agree with them. Thats not true.
9-11 also woke up alot of people here. The silent majority being one of those groups. Most of the moslems that I know do not approve of 9-11, nor do they approve of suicide bombing. Having said that – most of them are not in a postion to stop it.
However – most of these people that I know are also becoming less and less entranced by the United States.
You made a grave mistake when you tried to sell the war on moral rhetoric. Most of the people that I know were glad to Saddam go. In fact, when he was captured, most of us commented that he went down lilke the coward and the bully that he was – even his evil sons died fighting.
However, a year later .. when we see someone like Bush preach ideology on TV – it scares us. We hear the same bull**** from our preachers in the mosques and from alot of our leaders. We know the price that is paid for ideology. It is usually counted in blood and lives.
Beleive you me – I am not a fan of Saudi Arabia. I think that that country needs to modernize, change and evolve. I also recognize that the difficulty there is that is so huge – and the perceived legitimacy of Al Saud comes from Mecca and Medina – which means that the road to separating mosque and state is a long and difficult one – and it very well might not happen in time …
BUT ..
I am not going to hurry that process by adding fuel to fire. Because, the people who have been cropping up to take their legitimacy away, such as your and my beloved friends, the terrorists, will not be any better – and I can guarantee you – they will be much worse. Much. And the link between mosque and state will become stronger .. think Nazi Germany meets the Vatican ala the Khmer Rouge.
So, I would rather support the AL Saud in what they are doing. They are finally admitting that they have a problem. And they are, for the first time in recent history, taking a position against the fundies. The battle has started. And if I had to choose sides, I will side with Al Saud.
Once the battle is fought and won, I would then place stress within the system for change. We are a few years away from that though.
I dont want the Jordanians ruling Saudi. What makes you think that they will be accepted by the saudis or anyone in the Gulf? What makes you think that the CAP in Iraq has any real popular legitimacy? What makes you think that installing another puppet regime in Saudi will change Saudi? Dont make the same mistake that you did with Iraq. Ruling Iraq aint easy. Because of the structure of Iraq. Ruling Saudi aint easy. Because of the structure of Saudi.
So .. easy there buddy. Hold your horses and make sure that you really fully understand and ‘feel’ what is happeneing on the ground here before you make judgements. You seem like quite an intelligent, thoughtful person. What worries me is that you lack actual knowledge of the area – meaning you lack the right paradigm by which to understand us. Because I really dont see how having a revolution in Saudi Arabia given the alterative today will actualyl serve your interests in the long run. Or mine.
One more thing … alot of the 9-11 hijackers had roots in Europe in some way shape or form. How come you are not applying the same logic there and ‘forcing’ them them to change their immigration and assimilation policies? If one were to process map the whole ‘islamic terror’ movement – I would find it very difficult that it all rises and falls with Al Saud…
Look, I am just some kid in Bahrain who loves my country. And I like what we are trying to do. I like the current experiment with democracy. I like the tension between parliament and government and the societies who boycotted. I like the fuss that came up re Nancy Ajram and the discussions that ensued. I liked the fuss about Big Borther and how that galvanized alot of my silent majority peers to speak out. I see other GCC states taking slow and cautious steps. For the first time in a long time – I have faith in that we are trying to do the right thing. I dont want that process to be jeapordized because some guy sitting in the Oval Office in the White House is making fundamental decisions without really fully understanding the nuances of what is happeneing here. It upsets me.
Dont read our newspapers and reach the conclusion that we all hate America. The editorials in our pages do NOT play the same role as the editorials in America. Dont watch Al J’s and make judgements that they incite people. In fact, if you want the truth- AL J’s has done more for democracy in this part of the world than any other tv station – u know why? Because they were the first in the area to criticize our leaders!!! On public TV? And I dont care if they dont touch the Al Thani’s or not – they still set a precedent!
If you ever make it out to this part of the world – I will gladly take you around and show you how the battle for the ‘soul’ of Islam is taking place. By you taking a position on this from the outside – you arent helping the ‘goodies’. you are actually strengthening the hand of the ‘baddies’.
Re(7): How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
Thanks for the interesting and informative response.
[quote]It worries me that you actually think it is your perrogative to make judgements about Saudi oil revenues and Saudi oil. [/quote]
In ordinary circumstances, I certainly would not consider stealing (let’s be accurate) a nation’s resources from it. People and nations have a right to property. However, when the suicide jet full of evil Saudis impacts my office building, I’m not going to stand in the rubble and say how glad I am we maintained the Saudis property rights.
Saudi Arabia has declared war on America and has made itself our enemy for no good reason at all. We made them our business partners when we could have made them our colony. We made them rich when we could have fleeced them of everything they had. We protected them at the cost of American lives to their sneers. We ignored every venomous insult emanating from their mosques. And in return, they launched attacks that killed thousands of Americans. They have the gratitude of scorpions.
When the Saudis use their oil bucks to sow destruction in our home, we have the right to defend ourselves, to pinch off the flow of wealth to them with which they fund terror attacks on “infidel Americans.”
The alternative is for the Saudis to break off their religious war against America before we bring their jihad back to their doorsteps.
[quote]Sectarianism? It doesnt look like you understand shia – sunni. And it doesnt look like u understand the difference between persian shia and arab shia. We have all sorts in Bahrain – and quite a few mixed marriages to boot. That doesnt mean that sectarianism is dead here. And it certainly aint dead in Iraq.[/quote]
Thanks for the info. Certainly I am no expert on the various flavors of Islam, but am willing to be a student. Yet, I don’t see violence between the Shia and Sunni in Iraq. I see restraint.
[quote]…but – without US support, flying in the face of world opinion – Israel would never be where it is today. Look at how many vetoes the UN has seen coming from the US on Israel. [/quote]
World opinion is wrong. It’s fallacious reasoning to base your position on an argument ad populem. The popular UN resolutions against Israel are very nearly comically anti-Semitic. They are not persuasive at all. America is courageous to stand up against such religious hatred.
It’s true enough that Israel wouldn’t be where it is today without US support, or anywhere really. The Arabs probably would have killed all the Israelis by now. I don’t consider that a good result. Israel has a right to exist just like Kuwait or Bahrain.
[quote]What about the Wall? [/quote]
If suicide bombers were entering my neighborhood along with gunmen shooting children in their beds, I’d want a wall, too. This opposition to the Israeli wall doesn’t pass the smell test. Essentially, the Arabs are arguing that the Israelis should do nothing to stop terrorists from attacking them in their homes.
Now, if you want to argue if this is an effective defense, you may have a point. Defense does not win wars. Only offense. Walls are usually erected by losers. Think Maginot Line or the Siegfried Line.
[quote]…you know why there is an endless stream of suicide bombers? it is because these people in palestine have nothing to lose … their lives are so horrible and they are insitutionally degraded every single day of their lives – they feel like they have no choice… the only artillery that the people have is their own bodies. Sick – but true. And a fact. [/quote]
I agree and disagree.
Certainly the lives of the Palestines is nothing I would want. But why? Could it be that their leadership has wasted their resources in conducting an endless war rather than building up their community? Has Palestinian leadership established the conditions required for the economy to thrive, such as establishing property rights, fair laws, and jury trials? Perhaps those billions Arafat has stashed away in Swiss banks would have done much good for Palestine had it been invested in businesses and construction there. The primary reason that Palestinians lead such hopeless, wretched lives is that it serves the purposes of Arafat and his mafia. It also serves the interest of their foreign supporters in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.
Building a respectable nation is a form of moral artillery which has not occurred to the Palestinians and their supporters. The Kurds did it in Iraq under the thumb of Saddam. Why can’t the Palestinians do the same? Had they built themselves up rather than tear themselves down, they would enjoy our respect.
The idea that suicide bombing is the last resort of the Palestinians is self-evidently false. The Indians under Ghandi forced out the British in a largely peaceful campaign. A peaceful campaign by the Palestinians demanding the same rights and opportunities as Israeli citizens would be morally unstoppable. The Israelis have a legal system and a conscience that can be appealed to and won. Such a campaign could not fail to gain the support of America. The major obstacle to such a campaign is that the Palestinians are not a peaceful people. Suicide bombings of civilians merely discredits their cause, sets them back.
[quote]It worries me that you really honestly think that the princes vs. clerics war will really end with a regime that you think will further your own interests in the area.[/quote]
I do not hold that position. In my view, there are no good guys in Saudi Arabia. There are only thug princes and thug clerics. The best outcome I could hope for is that the princes crack down on the clerics and significantly reduce their role in society. That’s hardly an ideal outcome but it’s better for the thug princes to blow Arabian oil bucks in graft and wasteful living than have the clerics pay assassins to murder Americans.
[quote]It worries me that you think that the war on iraq was won .. when I dont even think that it is even halfway over. [/quote]
I don’t hold that position either. My opinion before the war was that the occupation would be bloodier than the war. That has proven true though the opposition was configured differently than I expected. My prediction was that jihadis would mount an endless guerrilla campaign but that the Iraqis themselves would cease resistance and plunge into reconstruction. The jihadis have proven to be a minimal force while Saddam’s gang have made a more tenacious resistance than expected.
I have always maintained that we would be in Iraq for a century. The battle of Iraq has a long way to go on many fronts.
[quote]I look at Afghanistan and Iraq – and I am not sure that you know how to create an alternative that is sustainable that leaves the average person on the street better off.[/quote]
The main purpose of conquering Afghanistan was to muck out Al Qaeda. I’d say every Afghan kid flying a kite in Kabul is better off.
[quote]There is nothing in your foreign policy in recent history that gives me any comfort whatsover that you can transalate your lovely sounding rhetoric of principles into actual pragmatic steps on the ground. [/quote]
Take another look at WWII. Japan and Germany were quite nasty pieces of business that have benefitted enormously from American occupation. They both run their own affairs today, too. Something to think about.
[quote]So, I worry. [/quote]
Get in line, pal. We’re all worrying.
Steve
How the efforts of 6 destroy those of 130,000
its good to know that the american version of UbL is alive and kicking …. nice to know that there are fanatics on both sides.
now – if only we could get the more moderate ones to start writing and start thinking and accept how simiar we are instead of how different .. then maybe we, as a human race, can stand a chance.