More than one million expatriates including Indians, living for over 10 years in Saudi Arabia, can benefit from an amended naturalisation law, which offers them citizenship of the kingdom and related rights.
Expatriates of all nationalities, who have been living in the kingdom for over 10 years, are entitled to apply for Saudi citizenship and their travels abroad with re-entry visas will not disqualify them, a senior official said.
More than one million expatriates would benefit from the amended naturalisation Law, which was passed by the Council of Ministers on Monday, Under-Secretary for Civil Status at the Interior Ministry, Nasser ibn Hamad Al-Hanaya, told Arab News daily.
There are nearly 8.8 million expatriates, mostly Asians and Arabs, in the Kingdom.
my effing big toe!
they’re having people on, there is no way in hell that Saudi would allow people to be naturalised like this, and it’s not April 1st yet, so what’s going on?
Steve, go to Saudi and apply! 🙂
Comments
WTF: Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
can’t believe it and can’t comprehend it, but:
ref 1 Arab News
ref 2 Arab News
ref 3 Arab News Editorial
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Mahmood,
Nothing on http://www.spa.gov.sa/news.php about this. Wonder why?
Sounds to me like the Saudis are trying to replace the “brain drain” that has been happening for years. Only thing I can think of at this time.
[Modified by: Bonsaimark (Bonsaimark) on October 24, 2004 04:38 PM]
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Does anyone actually [i]want[/i] to become a Saudi citizen? Anyone sane, I mean?
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Mahmood,
This is just too wild. There must be another story behind it or there are some wacky constraints on the citizenship or its just a big pile of camel dung. If it were true, it would spell the eventual destruction of the closed Saudi regime and the eventual defeat of the Wahhabi cancer it nourishes.
Thank you, Mahmood, for your kind invitation to become a Saudi citizen. I’ve put it on my list of “Things To Do” right under No. 2394 “Slam my hand in the car door” but above No. 2395 “Bite the neighbor’s cat.”
In the meantime, the only way I want to see Saudi Arabia is through a bombsight.
Steve
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
I read about that a while ago and figured they just ran out of victims, but then it makes perfect sense for the way the Saudis think. If you are afraid of half your population, then just neutralize them by adding more. Maybe when they announce they will let women drive, I’ll believe them about joining the human race.
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
I read about this story a few days ago on Abdusalaam’s site. Abdusalaam is an Indian citizen and former Saudi resident. He brings these details about what it takes for one to qualify for Saudi citizenship:
Is there anything else that should be added to the list?
Re: Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
My thoughts exactly when I read this in our paper tonight, Ash. I was having iftar with my Palestinian family and I read the article to them. They started laughing because Saudi would never give the Palestinians citizenship in all these years. In fact, The grandfather of the clan said he despised the Saudis so much he NEVER wanted to go there. And when I reminded him that the Kab’aa was there and he should make hajj, he winked and told me he was waiting for it to get moved somewhere else! 😀
He said he’d even rather visit it in the US — although we were all laughing 😉 (it’s a joke, so don’t anybody get bent out of shape!)
Salaam,
PM
Re: Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Yeah, that was another thing we were laughing about — WHO WOULD WANT SAUDI CITIZENSHIP? No woman, I know!
And the economy and unemployment are so bad, who would take it? Unless they lived in someplace worse — like the NWFP or Bangladesh….
Salaam,
PM
Oh, this is too good to resist….
What about:
– should think they are the only TRUE Believers
– should believe that Mossad and the CIA were behind the
attacks of 9/11
– should be willing to be completely physically, mentally and
morally exploited for the advantage of the “REAL Saudis”
– should believe that education is a danger to society, unless it
is “Saudi-fied”
– should think that the earth is flat.
Salaam,
PM
Re(1): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
PM,
Tell that grandfather he had a brilliant idea. The Muslims can move the Ka’aba to Florida next to DisneyWorld. It could be Ka’abaWorld! I can almost see the monorail circling it now. Instead of walking from religious point to religious point, we would make it into a ride like Pirates of the Carribean: Muslims of Mecca! You could see the whole history of Islam played out with animatronic robots as you ride. You could fly to Jerusalem on a flight simulator.
And think of all the other attractions nearby you could visit between prayers. We would manage it much better than the Saudis. Nobody would die, crushed to death in unruly crowds, like in Mecca. The climate would be more congenial, too. It would be fabulous!
Steve
Re: Oh, this is too good to resist….
And
– should enjoy Friday picnics with all the family in Chop-Chop Square
– should believe that any woman not wearing a tent is a slut
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
I was confused there for a minute, you see I originally had this one filed under
“How to get 9 years and 11 months of fingers-to-the-bone labor from your underpaid foreign help before cancelling their sponsorship”
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Tsk Tsk people .. I thought Ramadan was a time for reflection and charitable kindness and generosity of spirit!!
The Saudis giving away citizenship is like Deputy Dawg giving away BD1K .. both a way to maintain their existance in the next round of history ..
I have to admit that there will be alot more people willing to do this than we realize, I was told that salaries post the rampage in the east coast have gone up significantly for nurses, etc. So, in a twisted way .. kudos to the Saudi’s by using the immigration card to sort themselves out. Most of the Gulf states would never do it – too afraid of changing the demographics and too may issues with the ‘foriegner’. Unlike the US that actively targets immigrants, we have a bit of a backward mentality about it.
Re: Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
ROTFLMAO John! 😀
Too true, my friend….
Salaam,
PM
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Oh come now… how bad can Saudi citizenship be? I am tempted to do it, but only because as a woman it would mean an end to driving!
…and voting, thinking, speaking, independence, and wearing shorts (or much of anything in my closet).
Oh just hang it all. I’ll just stay in Califonia and hire a chauffer to drive me to the polls where I can cast a ballot while wearing shorts and questioning my husband’s ability to select a political candidate.
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Should drink “Deewars”
Should clean teeth with a twig
Should wear Agal as far back on head as possible
Better still sling it around the rear view mirror
Should travel to Bangkok before 21st birthday……”Shopping”
Re: Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Yeah, I had to laugh when I saw that as well. Saudis are never going to let a bunch of “tekruni” become Saudis. But it is nice that Saudis have finally said that their women who marry foreigners dont automatically loose their citizenship.
Now if I can get the Saudi government to recognize my marriage to my Saudi wife we will be getting somewhere. Never mind we are married Islamically and through our government.
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
I don’t know why you guys are all so angry…
Saudi Arabia will be offering these nationals free education (+a monthly salary in higher educational years), free medical treatments and alot more other things…
Now, I can be the last to be named Pro-Saudi.. but I’m actually shocked that they were this brave..
Saudi Arabia is quite the young nation (not even 100 years old) this move is actually pretty courageous.. Lets see how America gave women (or people, at that) their rights back in the American-fronteir-days..
Yes, Saudi is evolving really, really, extremely slowly.. but they’re obviously getting there..
Don’t get me started with all the flaws the nations you seem to come from have… ?? Plus, you aren’t exactly all from first world nations.. so zip it please.. !! Current Saudi nationals are working hard.. if the royals suck.. that gives you no right to criticize the people!
What is up with all the cynicalism?
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
All of these foreign nationals will take years, sometimes decades to get citizenship. Nonsense. Rights to Saudi citizenship are not on offer for foreign men who marry Saudi women, although I wouldnt want it in the first place.
The average yearly wage for Saudis has decreased dramatically in the last 20 years. I dont see most people, at least those who are familiar with the area, blaming the average Saudi national. We blame the Saudi royal family and their lackies who keep them in power. I somehow doubt the royal family and their lackies are living worse than they were 20 years. Prince Bandar has a 48,000 square foot palace here in the DC area and other 50,000 square foot place in Aspen Colorado, meanwhile the citizens supporting his lifestyle get less and less.
Malik.
RE: Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Peace to those who follow the true guidance!
Steve and all those foul-mouthed good-for-nothing-but-criticising-others should zip your mouths like someone else already said. Also remeber you don’t have anything good to say, don’t say anything. The reason I pointed out Steve is because he injsulted Islaam and the Ka’abah by suggesting that it should be put in Floriday next to Disneyworld and become a stupid and baseless means of entertainment for people. The Ka’abah is a holy place and impure both in reliegious belief and physciall appearnec cannot come near it. The non-Muslims are impure in this manner. The impurity in the belief consists of the fact that many of you believe in three gods, some reject the concept of a Judgement day, and other such things. The physical impurity consists of the fact that you let your urine drip from you and just pull your pants over yourselves, whereas Muslims are required to wash themselves clean (you have other physicall impurities as well). The circling of the Ka’abah is not a stupid and aimless custom that can be substitued for by a dumb ride and turned into an attraction. You can NEVER and will NEVER be able to end the rules and practices of this perfect and complete religion of Islaam. God has promised to protect it and you will NEVER be able to go against His will and even move the Ka’abah to any place especially an immoral disgusting junk area of Florida!!!!
As far as people being killed during Hajj, it’s a tough job keeping the area safe where MILLIONS of people gather, more that Disneyworld CAN EVER IMAGINE TO HAVE, and especially when people get emotional and sentimental and do crazy things. The Saudi goverenment tried to make it safe and even these changes are scorned by those wacky people who complain at the fact that the kingdom is facilitating Hajj too much. Well DA! isn’t that what they SHOULD DO?!!
You probably even don’t know how important Hajj is to Muslims and ISlaam and how some less educated (Islaamically speaking) people become crazy for the practice and cause deaths. MY FINAL WORDS TO ALL OF YOU LOSERS: FOR GOD’S SAKE GET A LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
P.S. To the managers of the website: Please, don’t delete this, and PLEASE, PLEASE LEAVE IT UP AS YOU LEFT UP THAT INSULTING AND DISTASTEFULL POST ABOUT “KA’ABAH WORLD”!!!!!
Re: Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Malik,
You write “US apologises for its support for mass murderers in the Islamic world? When the US stops supporting murderers like Mubarak in Egypt, Abd’Allah in Jordan and the al-Saud family in Saudi Arabia,”
The biggest mass murderers in the Middle-East have been other middle-easterners. The hundreds of thousands killed by Iraq in Kuwait. The Kurdish holocaust. The leveling of Hama where the Syrian government killed 20,000 people. The 40,000+ killed by the Janjaweed in Sudan with hardly any condemnation by middle-eastern governments.
None of these required US help to do their evil.
Re(1): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]The non-Muslims are impure in this manner. The impurity in the belief consists of the fact that many of you believe in three gods, some reject the concept of a Judgement day, and other such things. The physical impurity consists of the fact that you let your urine drip from you and just pull your pants over yourselves, whereas Muslims are required to wash themselves clean (you have other physicall impurities as well).[/quote]
Much love from this Muslim for the infidels.
Re(1): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
I appreciate your passion. I don’t your delivery. It probably would have been better to approach this issue from another way rather than brandishing the “infidel” sword and suggesting the only Muslims care about their personal hygene.
I share your belief that Islam is the last religion, and that Allah promised to take care of it.. so in this case why rise up to defend it yourself? Are you more powerful than Allah to have taken over His place?
Calm down man, there will always be an opposing opinion, it’s your job to evaluate a reply in a calm manner and only than reply. What you did is just insulted 3/4 of humanity – possibly more – without achieving any “conversions” to your way of thinking.
Rest assured that I shall not delete your original comment. It is just too precious to wipe out.
Re(1): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
You should read the following from our friend Reflections from Canada. If that article doesn’t show how mundane and callous your way of thinking is, probably nothing will.
Hats off to Global Soul.
Re(1): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]Steve and all those foul-mouthed good-for-nothing-but-criticising-others should zip your mouths like someone else already said. Also remeber you don’t have anything good to say, don’t say anything.
The reason I pointed out Steve is because he injsulted Islaam and the Ka’abah by suggesting that it should be put in Floriday next to Disneyworld and become a stupid and baseless means of entertainment for people. The Ka’abah is a holy place and impure both in reliegious belief and physciall appearnec cannot come near it. [/quote]
I am an American in America and I will post anything I damn well please. You can take your demands to zip it and stick them up your ass.
What a hypocrite you are. Muslims criticize American morning, noon, and night and think that’s peachy but the moment you take criticism you’re offended. I have a lot of bad to say about Islam since Sep 11 and I will be saying it. Lots of it.
I’ll admit that my Ka’abah post was tasteless. If one of the respectable Muslims on this site were to ask me nicely to remove it, I would out of respect for them as individuals. However, I do not respect any religion that seeks my death, as Islam does. If you want Americans to respect your bloody Islam, then respect us. Disrespect us and we disrespect you. Islam has earned its contempt from Americans like me by slaughtering Americans by the thousands.
[quote]The non-Muslims are impure in this manner. The impurity in the belief consists of the fact that many of you believe in three gods, some reject the concept of a Judgement day, and other such things. The physical impurity consists of the fact that you let your urine drip from you and just pull your pants over yourselves, whereas Muslims are required to wash themselves clean (you have other physicall impurities as well). The circling of the Ka’abah is not a stupid and aimless custom that can be substitued for by a dumb ride and turned into an attraction. You can NEVER and will NEVER be able to end the rules and practices of this perfect and complete religion of Islaam. God has promised to protect it and you will NEVER be able to go against His will and even move the Ka’abah to any place especially an immoral disgusting junk area of Florida!!!! [/quote]
The idea that your religion is somehow superior is complete nonsense. As long as Muslims do murder to further their religion, it remains an immoral and inferior religion which promotes evil values. It is a cruel and barbaric religion, the least of all the major religions.
Furthermore, your notion of how infidels pee is a product of ignorance, no doubt the result of much malicious indoctrination by dishonest Muslim clergy seeking to whip up hatred for other religions. This is another reason why the practice of Islam is inferior to the other major religions of the world.
Nobody is trying to end your religion, no matter how much your local radical mullah tells you otherwise. We don’t care if you circle the Ka’abah or any other legitimate religious practice. What we do object to is the barbaric hate your religion professes for other religions, philosophies, and systems of government.
[quote]As far as people being killed during Hajj, it’s a tough job keeping the area safe where MILLIONS of people gather, more that Disneyworld CAN EVER IMAGINE TO HAVE, and especially when people get emotional and sentimental and do crazy things. The Saudi goverenment tried to make it safe and even these changes are scorned by those wacky people who complain at the fact that the kingdom is facilitating Hajj too much. Well DA! isn’t that what they SHOULD DO?!! [/quote]
Muslims are killed during the pilgrimmage to Mecca because the Saudis are incompetent and don’t value the lives of the pilgrims enough to take the proper measures to make the Hajj a safe experience for worshippers. Moving people safely through a venue is not rocket science.
[quote]P.S. To the managers of the website: Please, don’t delete this, and PLEASE, PLEASE LEAVE IT UP AS YOU LEFT UP THAT INSULTING AND DISTASTEFULL POST ABOUT “KA’ABAH WORLD”!!!!! [/quote]
That’s rather typical for a Muslim supremacist: Censor all dissenting infidel opinions and post only Muslim opinions. That is precisely the backward approach which has kept the Muslim world inferior to the West. The problem is that Muslims can not make an intellectual defense of your religion, largely because much of it is indefensible.
I’ll make you a deal. I’ll remove the post myself when Muslims stop cutting off infidels heads, stop blowing people up into bloody chunks, render an apology for Sep 11, and make restitution for all the innocent blood they have shed.
Steve
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Steve
I don’t think it is appropriate to label all Muslims as extremists or, indeed, to take the, frankly quite funny (ha-ha funny) views of our rather steamed-up anonymous poster as the average Muslim.
I am concerned about the number of deaths on Hajj. There are c2m people who concentrate in a small place over a small number of days. i have spoken to quite a few of my colleagues who are Muslims and have been on Hajj and their view is that the Saudi’s have done a reasonable job.
I think there are stampedes and panics due to the restricted space and time but the space and time is fixed by the teachings of the prophet (sallallah alayhi was salam) so for a Muslim, these are unmoveable.
The only thing i can compare it with is football crowds in the UK, where we have had some terrible tragedies.
And as for the steamed up Anonymous poster, i would love to know where you live and why you live there?
The Johnster
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Steve writes “I’ll make you a deal. I’ll remove the post myself when Muslims stop cutting off infidels heads, stop blowing people up into bloody chunks, render an apology for Sep 11, and make restitution for all the innocent blood they have shed”
More nonsense from Steve. Maybe Muslim will apologise for 9/11 when the US apologises for its support for mass murderers in the Islamic world? When the US stops supporting murderers like Mubarak in Egypt, Abd’Allah in Jordan and the al-Saud family in Saudi Arabia, maybe then Muslims will apologise for 9/11. But if all Muslims must apologise for what a few do, shouldnt all Christians, by your reasoning, apologise for what a few Christians do? Should all Christians then apologise because the Pope after WW2 told his priests to not let Jewish orphans go to Jewish families? Should all Christians apologise for the mass murder of Muslims by their religious counterparts in Bosnia?
You have some sick ideas Steve.
It is amazing that we work probably less than a mile away from each other yet are worlds apart in ideas.
Malik
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Malik
Sounds to me like you are trying to justify 9-11 with your words. Fact is Malik what the US has or has not done or supported is not he point. Certian elements in the Muslim world have declared war on the West and that is the crux of the issue.
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Just by the way, did you know that the Chief rabbi of Rome converted to christianity at the end of WWII and changed his name to that of the then pope?
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Different people operate on different levels. Flys and mosquitos may be puny, but they also are
deadly. The problem with humans is that they are an evolutionary mistake. The more they use
their brain the stupider they become. They are completely oblivious to the need to correct mistakes
and instead prefer to perpetuate them. An odd way for a specie to become extinct.
Se la vie.
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
First of all you think why saudis are giving citizenships they were never(honestly speaking) sincere to foreigners.They hate,jealous,tease the foreigners i personally know as i lived there for about 12 years thay sometimes never treat foreigners as humans.BUT all saudis are not bad ….thing is that saudis are proud of their being ARABs and MUSLIMs and RICH.
The government is struggling on the process called “saudization” in which saudis will replace foreigners in public sectors and private sectors in al jobs but goverenment is not successful because saudi youth dont want to do jobs why because”
1)When they (youth) were small children their parents told them that these are the INDIANS,PAKISTANIS.BENGLADESHI, these are not good people they are just here to take our wealth.That is why a 4or 5 year children say QULB(dog),MUKH MAAFI(no brain), and many more things to foreigners .The point is how a 4 or 5 year child know that indian or pakistani or a bengladeshi is a dog or have no brain because their parents teach them or talk on this isuue in their home.So why will they do those jobs which pakistanis ,indians and bengladeshis do.
2)Their parents never said that go to school you have to make your future children,becasue every person have riyals and he thinks when my children just enjoy life no care of future. So no saudi wants to do job.
3)The saudi youth never got mother’s love which they deserves because their are maids in houses which lookafter the children. So in early childhood a child get a foreigner to lookafter him or her the first impression on child . so he or she thinks that if my mother import his maid for me i will import other persons to do my work.
And now Deputy Minister for Civil Affairs Nasser Al-Hanaya said that we will be very selective in giving saudi nationalities to foreigners .But in October he said we will give nationalities to one million peolple all they want is to impress human rights organizations which are continously saying that saudis are not sincere with foreigners and saudia is hell for foreigners.
All thing is that i love saudia as a foreigner because i spent my all childhood there but i love Saudia ,Saudia loves me too ,But Saudis dont love me.
In end i want to say Please saudis we the foreigners made your country we love you and your country the most islamic country and most lovely country in world but you dont love us WHY……………………………………………..
a person who loves saudi arabia
want to live their as a “SAUDI”
but no love for him in saudia no citizenships no future satisfaction
name :ajnabi
email:ajnabiformaria@yahoo.com
Re: Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Posted “thing is that saudis are proud of their being ARABs and MUSLIMs and RICH.”
I agree with much of your post, but if you lived in Saudi for 12 years you must be aware that not all Saudis are rich, not even close to it. This is a stereotype.
Re: Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
a very good article represents saudis, if saudi king read this he will really get impresssssssssssssss
Re: Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
ajnabi,
That’s a very interesting post. My take is that the Saudis are primitives who respect nobody of alien blood. There will come a day when the oil runs out and they will return to the desert with a great shock. I hope I see that day.
You probably should not post your email address publicly here. It’s best if you get one just for forums via Yahoo. You can speak more freely that way.
Steve
Re(1): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Oh ya thats a good post .
Saudis are not sincere with foreigners thats true.
They just hate foriegners. And now we will look that how much foreigners get the saudi citizenship.
“selective foreigners”or “one million foreigners” from total more than 6 million foreigners.
large difference between “selective” or “one million” isn’t it. hahahahahahahhahahaa
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
its nice to hear that foriegners are getting saudi citizenship,i grew up in saudi arabia,but im living in Britain, WITH MY FAIMLY still living in saudi arabia i wonder if they would let me in again.
i speak fluent Arabic i also teach arabic to children and adults.id love to go back it doesnt matter if women are not allowed to drive there are plenty taxis to take u around it doesnt matter if they call u names you should ignore them just pray for their guidence because prayers do help any way no one is perfect we all have faults, all the saudis are not racist there are many saudi
Women who are marrying foriegn workers.I must say that they r most hospitable to their guest.
ITS, the bagaya hujaj[decsendents of pilgrims]who might be racist not the origanal arabs.
anonymous sister U.K
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Many people feel angry and jealousy because of our resources in the Arab world I wish gad will keep the bad eyes from us all and western should remember there history too not only our camels and be busy with there self’s .
From KSA
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Quote
Posted by: Anonymous on May 05, 2005 03:03 PM
Many people feel angry and jealousy because of our resources in the Arab world I wish gad will keep the bad eyes from us all and western should remember there history too not only our camels and be busy with there self’s .
From KSA
Am I being a bit thick here but can someone translate the above for me!
By the way the anonymous above attacking Steve is a bloody dick head!
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
well…..steve….u have some sick ideas and an unacceptable low knowledge of history(btw…u americans are quite famous in that regard)….don;t forget how u people butchered red indians for hundreds of years, the bloody atrocities through out south america and the only nation to have used atom bombs and advocates other nations not to be armed and uses such reasons (weapons of mass destruction) to wage wars on nations such as iraq with zero record of terrorist activites outside Iraq before the invasion.
Americans through out this century has created chaos around the world and never thought about the adverse effects it’s economic and political interventions could arise…i am by no means is saying that those exploited nations should take into violance to resort this matter….but if a nations wants to be involved in external matters of another nation than it has to accept the consequences that might arise for it’s actions undertaken.
Regarding Islam being inferior to other religions….i must mention your low level of understanding again…because islam does not advocate any offensive violance and is the only religion in the world that does not go against logics and reasoning…..we never advocated that the world is flat and the sun goes around the earth!…..
…from sydney Australia
Re: Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
oh no…. here we go again!
Re(2): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Mahmood,
Agreed, but necessary to put a cork in the flow of ignorant anti-American bile that continually flows.
Steve
Re: Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Jasra, my dear,
I was wondering where you were hiding. I’ll admit my answer to the boring old anti-American nonsense is predictable, almost boiler plate, but it’s new to the boneheads who prompt it. There seems little point to thinking up new stuff for the likes of them.
So you’ve been reading up on the Khama Sutra, huh? No wonder you’ve been too busy to write!
Steve
Re(3): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]Mahmood,
Agreed, but necessary to put a cork in the flow of ignorant anti-American bile that continually flows.
Steve [/quote]
Do you realise Steve that you insulted Mahmood himself? When you talk about “Muslims” do you not think Mahmood is included? Your hatefull and spitefull words do not “put a cork in the flow of anti-American bile”, they encourage it!
Re(1): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]I was wondering where you were hiding. I’ll admit my answer to the boring old anti-American nonsense is predictable, almost boiler plate, but it’s new to the boneheads who prompt it. There seems little point to thinking up new stuff for the likes of them.
Steve [/quote]
Dont you see that your responses to them are just the mirror image of what they are saying? Actually, I do not think the original post went nearly as far as you did, nor was he as insulting.
Re(1): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Actually, Aliandra, samurai swords killed far more people than atom bombs or fire bombs.
Steve
Re(4): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
You’re one to talk about insulting people Malik. Pot.. Kettle.. Black…
Re(4): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
If you are truly concerned about stopping anti-American bile, get some soap and water and ticket to Saudi Arabia and wash “Death To America” off the pillars at Mina.
You would think that after Sep 11 the Saudis might want to take care not to publicly endorse further Sep 11 attacks. And you would think Muslims would be ashamed to see such violence endorsed by their religion.
But they’re not.
Steve
Re(5): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]You’re one to talk about insulting people Malik. Pot.. Kettle.. Black… [/quote]
Sure, I have done this in the past. I will be the first to admit this But I would like to think that I have gotten better with time. I have not done this recently, although sometimes I certainly felt like it. Steve, on the other hand, has not learned his lesson.
Re(5): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]If you are truly concerned about stopping anti-American bile, get some soap and water and ticket to Saudi Arabia and wash “Death To America” off the pillars at Mina.
You would think that after Sep 11 the Saudis might want to take care not to publicly endorse further Sep 11 attacks. And you would think Muslims would be ashamed to see such violence endorsed by their religion.
But they’re not.
Steve [/quote]
Once again Steve you stereotype a whole religion based on the actions of a few. Many of the people who post on this board on a daily basis are Muslims. When you say Muslims are not ashamed to see violence endorsed by their religion, are you talking directly to them? Steve, not all Muslims are the same, we do not think all the same, and there are many good Muslims out there fighting the good fight. You cannot say that we are all the same.
You group all Muslims as one, yet you can and do reject the very same method when applied to Americans. It is just as wrong to say all Americans are “ignorant and fat” as it is to say that all Muslims support violence. When will you learn Steve that you cannot stereotpye a whole people and speak the truth at the same time?
Re(2): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
It’s only a mirror image in the Malik funhouse mirror. And Malik, people who insult America out of ignorance deserve to be ridiculed. However, I understand how you would want anti-American sentiment protected.
Steve
Re(6): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Until you apologize to everyone on this blog for your insulting remarks of the past you continue to insult them EVERYDAY by your very presence. A little contrition Malik would go a long way with most people. Of course the point is moot if your not serious about showing respect.
Re(6): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Actually, Malik, the whole point of a religion is to get people thinking the same. Perhaps you haven’t noticed, but there are a handful of principles all Muslims must believe to be Muslims. You have spent quite a bit of energy on this forum trying to get people to think the same as you.
When Muslims scrawl “Death To America” on their most sacred religious artifacts at the center of their most sacred ritual, that is a powerful statement. It infers that the Sep 11 attacks on America were good and that more should happen to hasten the death of America and Americans. That places evil at the center of Islamic beliefs.
Now if there were an outcry among pilgrims to Mecca against this murderous and despicable sentiment, I might be inclined to consider that this is not acceptable to the majority of Muslims. But there was none. It is perfectly acceptable to Muslims.
Now, by contrast, what if the Pope hung a banner over the altar at the Vatican: Death To Saudi Arabia! There would be a firestorm of criticism in the West until that banner was hauled down. That’s because such murderous religious intolerance is unacceptable in the West and by all the other major religions.
And may I point out that you never address this but rather always seek to change the subject. Why is that, Malik?
Steve
Re: Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
The last time Allah gave Americans guidance he flew them into the World Trade Center.
I’ll pass.
Steve
Re(7): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]Actually, Malik, the whole point of a religion is to get people thinking the same. Perhaps you haven’t noticed, but there are a handful of principles all Muslims must believe to be Muslims.[/quote]
There are a handful of principles that Muslims must agree on, but it is just that, a handful. As to the rest of the details, there is a HUGE range of opinions in Islam. Islam, even from the very begining, didnt agree with everything. This is why there are many different schools of thought within Islam, Madhab, is the word I think. Hanafee, Hanbali, Malaki, and they all have different ideas on different subjects. Within Shi’a Islam there are a large amount of sects as well, Zaydi, “12ers”, and a host more I dont have a clue about. Islam is no more united in theological thought than is Christianity.
[quote]You have spent quite a bit of energy on this forum trying to get people to think the same as you. [/quote]
Steve, I dont want people to think the same as me. How boring would that be? I want people, people like you especially, to realise that there is a wife range of peoples and thought within the Muslim community. You have regular Muslims who post here everyday who have differing opinions, as you do others with widely divergent views. Dispite your claims Steve, we are a very diverse community so you can never say “All Muslims” and be correct.
[quote]When Muslims scrawl “Death To America” on their most sacred religious artifacts at the center of their most sacred ritual, that is a powerful statement. It infers that the Sep 11 attacks on America were good and that more should happen to hasten the death of America and Americans. That places evil at the center of Islamic beliefs. [/quote]
That is YOUR inference, and that is what YOU are reading into it. As a Muslim, I find the idea of writting anything on the pillars to be offensive. But what you need to realise Steve is that people can equally disapprove of the 9/11 attacks and still disapprove of American policy. Support for one doesnt have to be support for the other.
[quote]Now if there were an outcry among pilgrims to Mecca against this murderous and despicable sentiment, I might be inclined to consider that this is not acceptable to the majority of Muslims. But there was none. It is perfectly acceptable to Muslims. [/quote]
Steve, how many Muslims were at Hajj this year? Two million? How many Muslims are there in the world? Over one billion. Do the math, what is the percentage? If you are claiming that it is perfectly acceptable to Muslims, do you include all of the Muslims that post here? Lets do an equality check. Abu Ghraib, it didnt seem to me to really matter to Americans much. Heck, you and Ethan made a full time game here about trying to lessen what happened there, you know the “Saddam did worse” game. Does that mean that all Americans think prisoners should be tortured or humiliated? I do not think you would agree with that, why then do you use the same reasoning to try and judge all Muslims? It is the very reasoning you are using that fuels the extremists on the other end. But that is how it is Steve, extremists love to fuel the extremists on the other side. It keeps the flame of hatred going for both sides.
[quote]Now, by contrast, what if the Pope hung a banner over the altar at the Vatican: Death To Saudi Arabia! There would be a firestorm of criticism in the West until that banner was hauled down. That’s because such murderous religious intolerance is unacceptable in the West and by all the other major religions. [/quote]
I don’t think it is intolerable Steve. You have Pat Robertson the other day who said he is against any Muslim serving in the US government. I seemed to have missed the national outrage over such a statement. How does this “religious intolerance in the West” fare when you consider Western Christians murdered hundreds of thounands of Muslims and Catholics in Europe and the west waited until the worst of it was over to even try any limited response?
[quote]And may I point out that you never address this but rather always seek to change the subject. Why is that, Malik? [/quote]
Islam has a crisis at the moment, sure. But you seem unwilling to accept that there is a large scale debate going on all over the Islamic world about how to respond to this issue and others. Instead of realising that Muslims are not all of the same, we are not a monolithic entity, you choose instead to brand all Muslims with the same hatred. You will never get a grasp on the situation Steve until you realise this. And for as much as you slam me, I have never here claimed that all Americans are one thing or the other, let alone condemned all Americans. You Steve, feel free to condemn whole religions and nations. It is nonsense Steve. Have some of the tolerance you preach about.
Re(1): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]The last time Allah gave Americans guidance he flew them into the World Trade Center.
I’ll pass.
Steve [/quote]
Your hatred and bigotry speaks for itself Steve. I will not comment on this thread anymore. Some people are going to hate all and sundry no matter what anyone says. It is enough for me that two regulars here besides myself called you on your hatred.
Re(8): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]MALIK:You have Pat Robertson the other day who said he is against any Muslim serving in the US government. I seemed to have missed the national outrage over such a statement.[/quote]
Because Robertson, who once claimed power over hurricanes and called for the nuking of the state department, is considered a fringe element by most Americans. He is not the elected or appointed leader of any denomination, but a tele-evangelist. His utterances are not taken seriously by the general public, if the public is even aware of them. In fact, I hear about Pat’s goofy comments only because you repeat them. By contrast, the Vatican is an important religious center, as Mecca is supposed to be. If those two million visitors to Mecca didn’t condemn what was written on the Mina pillars, well, Steve has a point.
[quote]How does this “religious intolerance in the West” fare when you consider Western Christians murdered hundreds of thounands of Muslims and Catholics in Europe ? [/quote]
Considering that Pat isn’t calling for the murder of anyone, his intolerance is pretty tolerant.
Aliandra
Re(2): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]MALIK: I will not comment on this thread anymore.[/quote]
A promise that will take 10 minutes to break.
Re(8): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]You have regular Muslims who post here everyday who have differing opinions, as you do others with widely divergent views. Dispite your claims Steve, we are a very diverse community so you can never say “All Muslims” and be correct. [/quote]
Quite true. You have CAIR on one side, who denounces anything that may make Muslims look bad, even to the point of complaining when Muslims are arrested for sedition, and whose leadership is awash with people who want to convert the US to Islam and/or have ties to terrorists. (But will only admit such in their private conferences)
On the other side you have the tiny minority of extremists: http://www.freemuslim.org, whose march -against- terror in DC is not being joined by CAIR, MSA or other major Muslim groups. You ‘d think it was the other way around, but.. sadly no. Will you be at the march, Malik?
[quote]Steve, how many Muslims were at Hajj this year? Two million? How many Muslims are there in the world? Over one billion. Do the math, what is the percentage? If you are claiming that it is perfectly acceptable to Muslims, do you include all of the Muslims that post here?[/quote]
Poor analogy.
How many Muslims must make the pilrimage to Mecca? All of them, theoretically.
How many Christians would make a pilgrimage to the Vatican? Not even all Catholics would do so.
[quote]It is the very reasoning you are using that fuels the extremists on the other end. But that is how it is Steve, extremists love to fuel the extremists on the other side. It keeps the flame of hatred going for both sides. [/quote]
I’m not sure. Khomeini’s famous quote: “The Americans won’t do anything” seems to insinuate that being nice to the Islamic extremists is a sign of weakness and dhimmitude.
[quote]But you seem unwilling to accept that there is a large scale debate going on all over the Islamic world about how to respond to this issue and others.[/quote]
A debate in which one side has the pulpit, the other side is marginalized out of fear of takfir, and the third side exists only in the intellectual sphere does not a debate make.
An Indonesian cleric was arrested recently for leading prayers in his native language so that who he’s preaching to could understand the message. Seems as if the ‘debate’ is pretty monolitically (monolithic+politically 😀 ) one-sided in favor of the Sharia-totalitatrian-state.
Re(9): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]Quite true. You have CAIR on one side, who denounces anything that may make Muslims look bad, even to the point of complaining when Muslims are arrested for sedition, and whose leadership is awash with people who want to convert the US to Islam and/or have ties to terrorists. (But will only admit such in their private conferences)
On the other side you have the tiny minority of extremists: <http://www.freemuslim.org,> whose march -against- terror in DC is not being joined by CAIR, MSA or other major Muslim groups. You ‘d think it was the other way around, but.. sadly no. Will you be at the march, Malik? [/quote]
I wouldnt consider this group to be a “Muslim” group in any way but for the fact that they are comprised of Muslims. I do not care for their leader, Kamal Nawash, who ran for office here. He seemed to be trying to garner votes based on nothing more than sectarian affiliation. I have no problem with such a group as long as they feel free to address other issues in the Muslim community. This group does not do so, hence I will not provide support.
As to CAIR, I think like all such organisations, they seem to go a bit over the top, much like the NAACP and the ADL. I think this does their cause a disservice.
[quote]Poor analogy.
How many Muslims must make the pilrimage to Mecca? All of them, theoretically.
How many Christians would make a pilgrimage to the Vatican? Not even all Catholics would do so. [/quote]
Ethan, the analogy wasnt mine, it was Steves, so I will not defend it.
[quote]I’m not sure. Khomeini’s famous quote: “The Americans won’t do anything” seems to insinuate that being nice to the Islamic extremists is a sign of weakness and dhimmitude. [/quote]
I certainly believe that the radicals on all sides feed off each other. They point to each others extremist statements and use them as a rallying cry. Our extremists are just as dangerous as theirs.
[quote]A debate in which one side has the pulpit, the other side is marginalized out of fear of takfir, and the third side exists only in the intellectual sphere does not a debate make. [/quote]
Untrue Ethan. The debates ranges from all sides and all directions.
[quote]An Indonesian cleric was arrested recently for leading prayers in his native language so that who he’s preaching to could understand the message. Seems as if the ‘debate’ is pretty monolitically (monolithic+politically ) one-sided in favor of the Sharia-totalitatrian-state. [/quote]
I dont understand what you are claiming here. Prayers are always led in Arabic, Muslims all learn the Arabic for the prayers from when they are young. Are you speaking about the “Khutba” or sermon, that is delivered on friday prayers? This is most usually done in the language of the country or community. Here in the DC area it is done in English, Arabic, Farsi, Urdo and a few other languages. Generally you pick which one to go to based on the language in which you want to hear it in and which mosque you wish to attend. As to actually saying the prayers and reciting from The Qur’an in Arabic, this is no different than Jews from around the world who pray in Hebrew. There is nothing that says the “Khutba” or sermon must be in Arabic.
Re(3): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]MALIK: I will not comment on this thread anymore.
A promise that will take 10 minutes to break. [/quote]
It was meant for Steve’s posts. I have no problem answering questions and engaging in debate with people who are rational and not insulting. When it goes in that direct I will most certainly stop addressing a posters comments.
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
And the match is tied at 6-5, 5-6, 6-5, 5-6. Saudi Citizenship is serving…..
Ohh!! Net! FAULT!
And again……OHH!! DOUBLE FAULT!!
And the winner is………
BAHRAIN!! Now that the match is over let’s all head over the causeway for a drink and bit of pinch n’ tickle. Who wants to live here anyway!
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]Malik: As a Muslim, I find the idea of writting anything on the pillars to be offensive. But what you need to realise Steve is that people can equally disapprove of the 9/11 attacks and still disapprove of American policy. Support for one doesnt have to be support for the other. [/quote]
Well, Malik, you’re starting to dance the Malikian Jig here, arentcha, trying to defend the indefensible or distract us all from it. In this case, you are trying to jump from “Death To America” on the Mina pillars to US foreign policy, to lead us away from this blatant proclamation of murderous intent for America by Islam. Those pillars don’t read “We disagree with American foreign policy.” They say “Death To America.” Considering the recent Muslim attacks on Sep 11, the meaning could hardly be more clear. There is no ambiguity whatsoever about it. They want to perpetrate more Sep 11 style attacks and are advocating that the pilgrims make it happen.
[quote]Steve: “Now if there were an outcry among pilgrims to Mecca against this murderous and despicable sentiment, I might be inclined to consider that this is not acceptable to the majority of Muslims. But there was none. It is perfectly acceptable to Muslims.”
Malik: Steve, how many Muslims were at Hajj this year? Two million? How many Muslims are there in the world? Over one billion. Do the math, what is the percentage? If you are claiming that it is perfectly acceptable to Muslims, do you include all of the Muslims that post here? Lets do an equality check. [/quote]
Malik, is this really your defense? Only two million Muslims on the Hajj gave “Death To America” the thumbs up, not all one billion of them? And of those two million Muslims, not one objected to continuing the jihad against America? And by a giant coincidence, the only set of Muslims who agreed with “Death To America” just happenned to be the exact set who journeyed to Mecca this year. And the year before. Since you want us to assume that all the Muslims who were not on the Hajj would strenuously object to this insane religious crusade against America, please provide us with links of all those zillions of Muslims who object to making “Death To America” a Muslim policy written on the pillars at Mina.
[quote]Malik: Abu Ghraib, it didnt seem to me to really matter to Americans much. Heck, you and Ethan made a full time game here about trying to lessen what happened there, you know the “Saddam did worse” game. Does that mean that all Americans think prisoners should be tortured or humiliated? I do not think you would agree with that, why then do you use the same reasoning to try and judge all Muslims? It is the very reasoning you are using that fuels the extremists on the other end. But that is how it is Steve, extremists love to fuel the extremists on the other side. It keeps the flame of hatred going for both sides. [/quote]
Ah, yes, here comes the Malikian sleight of hand: Anyone who points out Islamic hate is an extremist but WHAT ABOUT ABU GHRAIB! Don’t look at “Death To America” on the pillars of Mina! LOOK AT THOSE PRISONERS FORCED TO WEAR PANTIES ON THEIR HEADS AT ABU GHRAIB! Not Mina, ABU GHRAIB! ABU GHRAIB! ABU GHRAIB!
For you students of rhetoric, this Malikian dodge is called the tu quoque logical fallacy, in which you answer an argument with an unrelated ad hominem accusation: “Oh yeah! You’re another one!”
[quote]Steve: “Now, by contrast, what if the Pope hung a banner over the altar at the Vatican: Death To Saudi Arabia! There would be a firestorm of criticism in the West until that banner was hauled down. That’s because such murderous religious intolerance is unacceptable in the West and by all the other major religions.”
Malik: I don’t think it is intolerable Steve. You have Pat Robertson the other day who said he is against any Muslim serving in the US government. I seemed to have missed the national outrage over such a statement. How does this “religious intolerance in the West” fare when you consider Western Christians murdered hundreds of thounands of Muslims and Catholics in Europe and the west waited until the worst of it was over to even try any limited response? [/quote]
OK, students. I’ve demonstrated the tu quoque fallacy in Malik’s last argument. How many can you find in this argument?
[quote]Steve: “And may I point out that you never address this but rather always seek to change the subject. Why is that, Malik?”
Malik: “Islam has a crisis at the moment, sure. But you seem unwilling to accept that there is a large scale debate going on all over the Islamic world about how to respond to this issue and others. Instead of realising that Muslims are not all of the same, we are not a monolithic entity, you choose instead to brand all Muslims with the same hatred. You will never get a grasp on the situation Steve until you realise this. And for as much as you slam me, I have never here claimed that all Americans are one thing or the other, let alone condemned all Americans. You Steve, feel free to condemn whole religions and nations. It is nonsense Steve. Have some of the tolerance you preach about. [/quote]
Can anyone find where Malik addressed the question here? I can’t.
Malik, a good place for the Islamic world to begin this alleged large scale invisible debate about how to respond to murderous Islamic extremism is right in front of the pillars of Mina where “Death To America” is written. Pitch a tent, fire up the barbecue, and debate all night if need be. However, as long as “Death To America” remains on those pillars as part of the most sacred rituals of Islam, Islam will stand for hatred and mass murder. Why should I respect Islam when it wishes me and my country death?
Steve
[Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on May 09, 2005 11:23 AM]
[Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on May 09, 2005 09:46 PM]
Re: Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Malik,
Up until very recently, the Grand Mosque was vomiting out plenty of anti-infidel and anti-western commentary. Taking that with the Mina pillars, what assumption are Westerners and non-Muslims to make about Islam when the holiest site proclaims them as scum? What conclusion should we draw when millions of Muslims continued to go there to listen to it without complaint?
Not very favorable ones.
Aliandra
Re: Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Mr. Sydney, Australia,
You would be a slave in the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere were it not for America saving Australia from Japanese conquest. Your mother, sisters, and wife would probably be sex slaves servicing Japanese soldiers as comfort women until they wore out. You would probably be worked to death on some Japanese construction project until you wore out.
There were two million Indians when Europeans first set foot in America. There are two million Indians now. May I remind you, the Indians were very busy slaughtering each other before we arrived, included white settlers in those murderous energies when they presented themselves, until they were stopped. They were also fond of torturing their victims of all colors to death and eating their choice parts as well. It’s hardly surprising that you favor the cannibals.
It’s probably difficult for a person so ignorant of history as you, but the two hundred thousand Japanese killed by our atom bombs prevented two or more millions of Japanese being killed in the coming invasion of Japan. May I also point out, that was a war Japan started. Let it be an object lesson to all not to make sneak attacks on America lest atom bombs fall on your head.
Your understanding of history is also weak considering the causes of aggression in the world. You might take another look at the Soviet Union and Communism. Most of the people killed in the last century were killed by their own countries, most of which were Communist tyrannies.
Your absurd statement that Islam does not advocate any “offensive violence” is just flatly nonsense. Every day brings new proclamations from pious Muslims to make Americas streets run red with blood and our skies black with poison. Perhaps you haven’t noticed, but there is a world-wide head-cutting, car-bombing jihad being perpetrated by Muslims from New York to Bali. If you missed it on the news, you can always rent the Muslim snuff videos of jihadis decapitating infidels or shooting them in the head. I recommend the one of them shooting the aid worker in her head and then shouting, “Allah is Great!” The Muslims have placed this call to violent jihad at the very center of their religion by placing “Death To America” on the pillars of Mina for the last two (probably more) pilgrimmages to Mecca for two million of the faithful to see. It is a bloody faith with a murderous intolerance that makes it morally inferior to the other major religions.
Steve
Re(1): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]Malik,
Up until very recently, the Grand Mosque was vomiting out plenty of anti-infidel and anti-western commentary. Taking that with the Mina pillars, what assumption are Westerners and non-Muslims to make about Islam when the holiest site proclaims them as scum? What conclusion should we draw when millions of Muslims continued to go there to listen to it without complaint?
Not very favorable ones.
Aliandra[/quote]
If you know about Saudi Arabia then you know that there is precious little that anyone can do or say if you want to avoid being put into prison without charge for as long as the Saudi government likes. Muslims from around the world have no say as to who preaches at these mosques or how they are run. Personally I would like to see the Saudi government dissolved and a democratically elected government installed. I think Mecca and Medina should be made into international cities where Muslims from around the world have a say in how the affairs of the cities are run.
There are lots of complaints Aliandra, but you dont hear about them for several reasons. First, most Muslims feel powerless to inact any change in a country that is the last absolute monarchy in existance. There is a large amount of resentment in the Muslim community against the Saudi government, which often spreads to resentment of the Saudi people, some of it deserved, some of it not. I remember going to dinner at the house of a Pakistani diplomat here in the DC area. He was so surprised at how kind my wife was. He had this idea that all Saudis are a representation of how their government acts and behaves. This feeling is rife in the Muslim community as a whole. Ask anyone with involvement in the Muslim community, in the USA or abroad, and you’ll find that the Saudis are not very popular for this reason as well as others.
Another reason you do not hear about it is because it is not sensational. Western media tends not to cover the Muslim world except in very general terms, and often only when it is sensational in content. I, personally, wish more Muslims would get involved in these issues. I do not think that they avoid it because they do not see the need for reform. I think they avoid it because they think there is nothing they can do.
Third, I believe most “Muslim” governments would not allow any such movement to form. These countries tend not to like any homegrown movement because it is a threat to the state and to the status-quo. I think apathy is the biggest enemy Islam has.
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]Malik: If you know about Saudi Arabia then you know that there is precious little that anyone can do or say if you want to avoid being put into prison without charge for as long as the Saudi government likes. Muslims from around the world have no say as to who preaches at these mosques or how they are run. [/quote]
Can Saudis imprison Muslims outside Saudi Arabia? Last I heard, there are about 25 million inhabitants of Saudi Arabia which leaves one billion Muslims outside Saudi Arabia, outside its laws, outside its tyranny. It seems to me that there is a lot a billion Muslims could do if they disagreed with the way the Saudis ran Mecca. They could barrage the media of the world with complaints against the Saudis if they disagreed with things like painting “Death To America” on the pillars at Mina.
But they don’t disagree with that sentiment because they support doing violence to non-Muslims. That’s why there is no objection to it.
[quote]Malik: Another reason you do not hear about it is because it is not sensational. Western media tends not to cover the Muslim world except in very general terms, and often only when it is sensational in content. I, personally, wish more Muslims would get involved in these issues. I do not think that they avoid it because they do not see the need for reform. I think they avoid it because they think there is nothing they can do.[/quote]
A major schism in the Muslim world over the operation of Mecca would be quite sensational. It would be covered, just as lesser battles in Christian fundamentalist churches are covered by the media. And there is plenty of media that cover all kinds of otherwise undramatic events for the sober-minded.
As for Muslims thinking there is nothing they can do to make Islam more moderate, there seem to be plenty of Muslims who think there is plenty they can do to make Islam more extreme. The difference is that the moderates lack the courage of their convictions while the extremists find the majority of Muslims tolerant of their radical views and actions, even crimes.
[quote]Malik: Third, I believe most “Muslim” governments would not allow any such movement to form. These countries tend not to like any homegrown movement because it is a threat to the state and to the status-quo. [/quote]
And the Muslims in the West are potted plants incapable of action? Muslims who enjoy freedom in the West do not object to “Death To America” on the pillars of Mina because they support the sentiment. It is a core value for their community.
[quote]Malik: I think apathy is the biggest enemy Islam has.[/quote]
There are a lot of people who used to work in the World Trade Center who wished that were true.
Steve
Re(2): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]MALIK: Muslims from around the world have no say as to who preaches at these mosques or how they are run. Most Muslims feel powerless to inact any change in a country that is the last absolute monarchy in existance.[/quote]
But they do have a choice on when and if they go to Mecca. If most of the world’s Muslims postponed their hajj until the intolerance at Mecca and in SA was stopped, reform would come faster than you can say “Inshallah”. 1 billion Muslims DO have the power to affect change over there and at no risk to them.
There’s an idea for you, Malik. Get it circulating 🙂
[quote]Western media tends not to cover the Muslim world except in very general terms, and often only when it is sensational in content. [/quote]
Sensationalism isn’t limited to Western media. If it bleeds, it leads, and people find good news to be pretty boring. A morbid streak in human nature, I suppose.
[quote]I remember going to dinner at the house of a Pakistani diplomat here in the DC area. He was so surprised at how kind my wife was. He had this idea that all Saudis are a representation of how their government acts and behaves.[/quote]
Malik, are you sure this was due to his issues with the Saudi government or due to the way south asian employees get treated by some of the Saudis themselves? Saudi has a big problem respecting the rights of its foriegn workers. Just yesterday, the NYT had an article about Sri Lankan maids getting abused by the families they work for. Apparently it’s common enough that, In their training courses in Sri Lanka, the maids were actually told to expect beatings should they not clean the blender properly or things like that.
Aliandra
Re(3): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]But they do have a choice on when and if they go to Mecca. If most of the world’s Muslims postponed their hajj until the intolerance at Mecca and in SA was stopped, reform would come faster than you can say “Inshallah”. 1 billion Muslims DO have the power to affect change over there and at no risk to them. [/quote]
That is not true Aliandra. All Muslim adults MUST go to Mecca if they are physically and financially able to. There is no way to escape this based on the leaders of the Mecca. I believe Muslims could and should make their voices known anyway that they can, but not obeying their duty as a Muslim is not one of them.
[quote]Sensationalism isn’t limited to Western media. If it bleeds, it leads, and people find good news to be pretty boring. A morbid streak in human nature, I suppose[/quote].
Of course, which is why we dont see too much of value. I would say, from experience, that the media in the US is worse than other places in the west. Europe has their tabloids, but their mainstream press, both print and television, is superior to ours.
[quote]Malik, are you sure this was due to his issues with the Saudi government or due to the way south asian employees get treated by some of the Saudis themselves? Saudi has a big problem respecting the rights of its foriegn workers. Just yesterday, the NYT had an article about Sri Lankan maids getting abused by the families they work for. Apparently it’s common enough that, In their training courses in Sri Lanka, the maids were actually told to expect beatings should they not clean the blender properly or things like that. [/quote]
It was both Aliandria. He had made Hajj and didnt like the way they were treated there and he despises the Saudi royal family as well. As to foreign workers, they are treated very badly all over the Middle East. Workers from Sri Lanka get treated no better in Riyadh than they do in Beirut, and it is a travesity. My wife’s family had a maid here in the USA. She was Sri Lankan and had worked in Saudi for 8 years. It took them several weeks to get her to stop sleeping under the dining room table and to move to the seperate room that they had provided her. She ended up becoming a member of the family really. Personally, I love her like a sister. She has moved back to Sri Lanka after being with my family for 6 years. She was able to send her family several hundred dollars a month and take back enough savings to build a new house for them. That is the way it should be.
Re(4): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote] MALIK: That is not true Aliandra. All Muslim adults MUST go to Mecca if they are physically and financially able to. There is no way to escape this based on the leaders of the Mecca [/quote]
Malik, this is perfect example of following the letter of the law and not the spirit. It’s what driving your extremists and preventing independent thought and questioning. If Mecca is preaching hatred and murder of others, which you say goes against Islam, do you think God still wants you to go?
Aliandra
Re(5): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]Malik, this is perfect example of following the letter of the law and not the spirit. It’s what driving your extremists and preventing independent thought and questioning. If Mecca is preaching hatred and murder of others, which you say goes against Islam, do you think God still wants you to go?
Aliandra [/quote]
Mecca isnt teaching anything. Some clerics are, but not all. You cannot go and generalise again. One of the main clerics in Mecca has been talking a lot against terrorism and their tactics and theology. The kabbah and the hajj transcend all of these things. They are eternal, the preaching of extremists is not, and like anything else, will die out. I do not dare say what God thinks, but I do know He has made hajj an obligation and has not given any reasons that can keep one from fulfilling this duty save health or finances.
This does not mean all Muslims should not do what they can from their home countries to have a say in what the Saudi do in the city that belongs to all Muslims
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Steve ..
Sweetheart .. you need to become less predictable. Predictability is the number one killer in a relationship. If we (Mahmood’s blog) and your good self sre going to continue having this illustrious affair of the minds, then you need to spice up your performance and add something new instead of your usual standard operational procecude comback missionary style position on islam, the moslems, and saudi arabia to be specfic.
there are many other positions. kama ghitra and all that.
Re(6): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]MALIK: Mecca isnt teaching anything. Some clerics are, but not all. You cannot go and generalise again.[/quote]
Mecca (more specifically, SOME of its imams) was spewing out anti-infidel screeds at the Grand Mosque until very recently.
[quote] I do not dare say what God thinks, but I do know He has made hajj an obligation and has not given any reasons that can keep one from fulfilling this duty save health or finances. [/quote]
I re-state my argument – you are putting the letter of the law above the spirit. God forgives your absence because of finances or health, but your presence is required when Meccan imams are corrupting His teachings?
That’s not a very enlightened deity, not even a very consistent one.
Aliandra
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Steve..
May Allah give u guidence…..
[comment deleted, inflamatory, flaming and off topic. ed]
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]I dont understand what you are claiming here. Prayers are always led in Arabic, Muslims all learn the Arabic for the prayers from when they are young.[/quote]
This courageous cleric led the prayers themselves in the local language.
God doesn’t speak Arabic only, Malik. Must I remind you of the many hundreds of millions of Muslims that don’t understand a whit about what they are saying during prayers. Classical Arabic is not something that most Muslims understand. Pakistani madrassahs teach memorization of the Koran, yet even at graduation time, few, if any of the memorizers know any more than the sounds and what has been beaten into their heads about infidels. (Beaten being a non-hyperbole)
The same thing happened in the middle ages, when Christianity was preached in Latin across Europe.
Re: Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]The difference is that the moderates lack the courage of their convictions while the extremists find the majority of Muslims tolerant of their radical views and actions, even crimes. [/quote]
Incorrect. Completely incorrect.
The moderates – lets take Malik, for example – believe very very strongly that Islam is a religion of peace. (This is of course assuming that Malik is not a master Taqiyya-ist).
The problem is that they have literally zero theological backing to promote their interpretation. They can cherry pick Koranic quotes: No compulsion in religion, kill one human is like killing all of humanity, and even hadith showing that Mohammed was a nice guy.
However, those quotes are dismissed out of hand by the extremists, who not only have quotes of their own: Take not Christians and jews as friends, for non-believers there is only hellfire, Mohammed killed the apostates, etc; but the extremists also have a millennium or more of history and jurist rulings.
Let us take Islam as the US code and Muslims are lawyers. Malik is fighting precedent by looking at certain laws. The extremists have precedent on their side. If put up to a neutral judge, the extremists win.
When I first investigated Islam, I took the role of the neutral judge. I ruled in favor of precedent, even though I’d have preferred not to. The extremists have a [b]stronger[/b] case. Islam has never historically been ‘unislamically’ tolerant and peaceful. As Moses Maimonides (Saladin’s personal doctor, and a Jew) said: “We were dishonored beyond human endurance. . . . This people, the Arabs . . . never did a nation molest, degrade, debase, and hate us as much as they. . . . [b]No matter how much we suffer and elect to remain at peace with them, they stir up strife and sedition.[/b]”
The last line is telling regarding my statement regarding the Ayatollah. You cannot be nice to the Islamic extremists because they wish to convert you even if they have to kill you.
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
I really don’t see where this argument will lead. It’s not a discussion, it’s most definitely an argument with polite, and some not to polite, mud slinging thrown in for good measure. Can you not just agree to disagree? You won’t agree with the others point of view, so what is the logical point of this argument?
Re(1): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
repetitive and argumentative your honour.
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Well, all I have to say is that I was busy moving into a new house and was nowhere near any of this! LOL!
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Thank HEAVENS you were not here to pour your brand of petrol on this Malik. You shovel enough shit in the FORUMS as it is.
Re: Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]Thank HEAVENS you were not here to pour your brand of petrol on this Malik. You shovel enough shit in the FORUMS as it is. [/quote]
Thanks for the polite, intelligent response.
Re: Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote] Sydney, Austalia: Americans through out this century has created chaos around the world and never thought about the adverse effects it’s economic and political interventions could arise.[/quote]
We’re only five years into this century, Syd, not enough time to create all the chaos around the world, even if we”d wanted to.
[quote]such as iraq with zero record of terrorist activites outside Iraq before the invasion. [/quote]
Lokerbie bomb, Sept 11, African Embassy bombings, planned attacks all over Europe in 2002 (including a chemical attack on French citizens,) – nothing to do with Iraq.
[quote] and the only nation to have used atom bombs [/quote]
The fire bombing of Tokyo killed far more people. No one in China is complaining against the use of atomic bombs to defeat the Japanese empire. Read up on your history and wise up to Japanese atrocities in Asia.
Aliandra
Re: Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
The point of this dialogue is to defend Western civilization and specifically the United States against attack from radical Muslims. If we aggressively defend America in writing, it may preempt physical attacks just as cleaning up graffitti and fixing broken windows can stop the degeneration of a neighborhood into crime. There are dozens, maybe hundreds, of lurkers in this forum who may have no exposure to the non-Muslim argument except here. As Churchill said, jaw jaw is better than war war.
We can not simply agree to disagree with Muslims when so many of them want to kill us and destroy our homeland. You can only agree to disagree with civilized people who value consensus and wish you no harm. The Muslim leaders who write “Death To America” on the pillars at Mina are not such people. They must be opposed constantly, everywhere, forever until their threat is no more.
Steve
[Modified by: Steve The American (Steve) on May 09, 2005 09:39 PM]
Re(2): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]Let me repeat it once again: in this forum you are preaching to the choir. So save your breath for other sites which would be much more appropriate for this sort of talk than this one. [/quote]
I may be only speaking for myself, but I’ve spent my time debating and discussing on other boards, such as faithfreedom (and others in the past few years, but none of them stick out as much as FF). I can only take so much of the vitriol. It’s one reason why I cannot stomach LGF anymore, the articles are spot on, but the comments section is like a mosh pit with suicide bombers.
I keep coming back here for a couple of reasons. One of which is you, Mahmoodski. I find you consistently insightful and a very pleasant fellow. If I ever visit Bahrain, your house will be my first tourist stop. Malik also keeps me coming back. I have met only two people in my life who are like him: they who are steadfast upon shifting sands, even if it leads them to be pulled away by the undertow.
Now, this is not to say that there are not others whom I like to hear from. Bonsaimark, JJ, Aliandra, PM spring to mind. Even Steve, who I wish would calm his arguments down and focus on a more Spencerian approach rather than a ‘lets blast the moonbats’ approach is a stand-up guy.
Are there other forums that need a rationally anti-Islam(-extremist) voice? Of course! However, at least for me, I’d prefer to find a nice pleasant comfy chair for a while to dispense philosophy. I’m done with the lage scale flamefests of the more vitriolic sites.
Re(3): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]Are there other forums that need a rationally anti-Islam(-extremist) voice? Of course! However, at least for me, I’d prefer to find a nice pleasant comfy chair for a while to dispense philosophy. I’m done with the lage scale flamefests of the more vitriolic sites. [/quote]
That is the problem Ethan, no one needs anymore “anti” anythings. Instead of trying to prove each other wrong lets come up with a way where we can accept each others differences, accept that each other’s belief system is valid, and learn how to live together. Until you learn that you cannot always seek to disprove other people’s belief system you will never be part of the solution, only part of the problem.
I do not agree with much of what Judaism or Christianity teaches, but I have not made it my mission in life to try and prove my way is better, or that theirs is false. I have done what I can to make sure that we can be different but still live in peace.
Your extremists are as bad and as dangerous as my extremists are. That is what we need to work on, getting less extremists, not more. You are not anti Islamic extremist Ethan, you have made up your mind that Islam is the problem, hence there can be no such thing as a moderate Muslim. Your view of my religion is the same as the extremists. You think they are perfectly right to be extremists, as that is what you think our religion calls for. This is not a stance for developing peace, because once you come to your viewpoint there can be only one solution. A clash of religions and civilisations where one side will be the victor over the other. I reject this idea and I will fight against it.
Re(3): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Thank you Ethan, I feel the same. This “place” has pulled a lot of very disperate people who hopefully will come to learn to respect each others’ views and choices. But it does get irksome sometimes from a person who visits several times a day (me) only to find that yet another thread has succumbed to the very same finger pointing, blames, flames, personal attacks and “Islam is bad” without any new and fresh ideas put forth.
I know that some visitors might regard me as the heavy handed police sometimes, or the anti-this or -that. But I’ve got to do something to keep the environment at least “nice” to visit and discuss things in. There has been a lot of fire-fights in the past few months, almost all of them are related to the very things which have been repeated time and again.
It becomes tiring.
I’ve even installed the forum module so that people might adjourn there to have a more “private” area (off the front page anyway) to have their slug-fest, but the front page seem to be the magnet that pulls them back!
Not that I mind where the comment goes anymore really. What I ask is for everyone to pull back once in a while, and stop the need to have the very last word in everything.
Re(1): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Steve, if this is your objective then I’m afraid you’re on a losing battle. No amount of “talking” is going to change the minds of extremists on forums like this one. It’s the wrong one anyway as the very people who you are trying to address avoid this forum like the plague! You’d better go to their own lairs to “jaw jaw”. Here, you’re mostly preaching to the choir anyway.
Regardless of this fact, I must take issue with your statement: “You can only agree to disagree with civilized people who value consensus and wish you no harm.” and am offended by it. We – generally, in fact the vast majority – are civilised thank you very much. We might interpret things differently than you do in the west, but that is simply because of our own home-grown culture and circumstances, as is the case with Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Americans etc. The vast majority of Muslims wish you no harm.
I also know that no matter how many times you see this written and spoken you will still continue to lambast us with “Islam = hate” and “islam = murder” and now “islam = uncivilised folk”, that is completely your perogative. Mine is to say enough of all of this. Please.
Let me repeat it once again: in this forum you are preaching to the choir. So save your breath for other sites which would be much more appropriate for this sort of talk than this one.
Believe me also – all of you – that I welcome this dialogue, you can go on discussing and dissing each other for as long as you want. I would encourage you however to realise the context of this site and to expend your energies more wisely at other sites which must be waiting with baited breath for this kind of discussion.
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
I can see some truth in both of your arguments, but you’re both not bothering to take into consideration the others point of view. It’s a sensitive subject but you’re all going around in circles.
Those slogans should be taken down, but you’re speaking from a western perspective. Saudi isn’t well loved by many Arabs, in fact it’s often viewed with disdain. Their teachings are often radical wahabi, and many Muslims disagree vehemently with their proposed violence. Yet, getting through to a torrential system such as the Saudi one and making them change those rules is near to impossible, unless of course you propose another world war. Was it easy when Hitler had to be removed? Did people think then “Well if you boycott Germany then they will be forced to change their politics”? I’m not proposing that violence is the answer, but there needs to be more support from the international community. The USA and UK have strong dealings with Saudi, if there was pressure from them then we’re more likely to see changes.
I agree we have to change it, but getting Muslims to boycott Hajj is near to impossible. To see some results we must continue to ask for international intervention in this issue.
Those so-called “Muslims” that carry out such attacks as the 9/11 leave me incensed with rage, how dare they use Islam and Muslims as an excuse? I didn’t give my backing, and I have never met anyone who says they have, not in the UK where I am resident, nor back in the Middle East.
GB
Re(2): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Mahmood,
Fair enough. I have been ranting for a while and may well have been indiscriminate in my rhetoric. All I wanted to do was make an issue of the pillars at Mina, which is simply too blatant to let pass without mention. That said, I realize you are not the enemy nor even close and that you are not going off on the jihad. You’re busy playing with electronic gadgets like any sensible man should and enjoying life. I don’t think the other Muslim posters are out to do evil to America either. I have to concede that I am indeed preaching to the choir here, at least those parts of the choir who step into the light and respond.
Certainly, you seem to me a nice guy, an understandable guy, a civilized guy. But Mahmood, I just don’t know that I am persuaded that the majority of Muslims subscribe to the same civilized norms, that you represent the majority. There is just too much bad news, ominous news, to the contrary to accept that at face value. It’s just not clear at all that the Muslim world as a whole means us well. It is very clear that a significant core of Muslims bear unfathomable hatred for America on the basis of religious convictions alone. What proportion of the Muslim world do they compose? I don’t know. Too much.
Look at this paragraph from the Washington Times last week:
“Criminal Division prosecutors and investigators, working with state and local authorities, have disrupted more than 150 terrorist cells and threats from Portland, Ore., to Lackawanna, N.Y., incapacitating more than 3,000 known operatives. They also have charged 375 persons in terrorism-related cases, 195 of whom already have pleaded guilty or been convicted, and removed from the country more than 500 people linked to September 11. The targeted terrorists have included members of al Qaeda, Hezbollah and Hamas as part of an effort to prevent and prosecute those who commit or intend to commit terrorist acts against the United States.”
http://www.washingtontimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20050503-114633-5129r
Mahmood, if the Muslim world means us well, why were there 150 Muslim terror cells from multiple Muslim organizations in America attempting to perpetrate murder? That strikes me as a trifle bellicose.
I welcome the way different civilizations interpret events. Variety adds flavor to life. I have no problem forming relationships and cutting deals with people with whom I disagree strongly. However, my welcome fades when their particular interpretation of life demands death to America. I’m very fond of my civilization and don’t particularly want to see it dead, or wounded, or even scratched. It supplies me all these cold Diet Cokes I crave. A good and easy first step for the Muslim world to demonstrate commitment to building civilization rather than destroying it is to wash clean the pillars at Mina.
Steve
Re(4): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
I’m going to defer to the forums to continue this argument. I’d rather not take up space laying out a specious argument in the comments field of the blog. There’s already been enough devolution of topics. Heck even the ‘About Mahmood’ blog post has been hijacked by a ‘tiny minority of extremists’ – you and Steve. 😛
Re(2): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]Regardless of this fact, I must take issue with your statement: “You can only agree to disagree with civilized people who value consensus and wish you no harm.” and am offended by it. We – generally, in fact the vast majority – are civilised thank you very much. We might interpret things differently than you do in the west, but that is simply because of our own home-grown culture and circumstances, as is the case with Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Americans etc. The vast majority of Muslims wish you no harm.
I also know that no matter how many times you see this written and spoken you will still continue to lambast us with “Islam = hate” and “islam = murder” and now “islam = uncivilised folk”, that is completely your perogative. [/quote]
Great post Mahmood. Couldnt have said it better myself!
Re: Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
I want someone to teach me Arabic.
Re(4): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Mahmood, I believe we are in general agreement.
I agree that you can’t bomb the radicals out of existence, though from time to time some ripe local concentrations of radicals may benefit from a carefully placed aerial bomb. I agree that the long term answer is engagement with the Middle East and its radical population, as counterintuitive as that seems. Dr. Thomas Barnett, professor at the U.S. Naval War College, wraps up the problem in a nutshell:
“Transnational terrorism, in the form of the Salafi Jihadist movement, is fundamentally a function of globalization. As the global economy penetrates the traditional societies of the Muslim world, the violent rejection of the integration is expressed by those Salafis, like bin Laden and al-Zarqawi, who detest that process so much they are willing to kill and die to keep it out, dreaming instead of an Islamic super-state that would transport people back to the golden religious age they prefer, a hint of which we saw in Taliban-dominated Afghanistan.”
“In short, their strategy is to drive the West out of the Middle East so they can hijack the Middle East out of globalization’s creeping embrace. We counter that strategy best over the long haul by seeking to connect the region to the outside world and allowing that connectivity to generate local demand from below for better and more representative government.”
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16779
In short, increasing business ties will stealthily inject reforms from the bottom up.
As an aside, I believe it was missionary doctors from the American Mission Hospital in Bahrain who made the first American contact with the Saudis, treating injured Saudis and then being invited to Arabia to treat others, including ultimately old man Saud himself back in the 1920s or so. It didn’t quite work out so well in Saudi Arabia as in Bahrain.
Steve
Re(5): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]
I agree that you can’t bomb the radicals out of existence, though from time to time some ripe local concentrations of radicals may benefit from a carefully placed aerial bomb. I agree that the long term answer is engagement with the Middle East and its radical population, as counterintuitive as that seems. Dr. Thomas Barnett, professor at the U.S. Naval War College, wraps up the problem in a nutshell:
“Transnational terrorism, in the form of the Salafi Jihadist movement, is fundamentally a function of globalization. As the global economy penetrates the traditional societies of the Muslim world, the violent rejection of the integration is expressed by those Salafis, like bin Laden and al-Zarqawi, who detest that process so much they are willing to kill and die to keep it out, dreaming instead of an Islamic super-state that would transport people back to the golden religious age they prefer, a hint of which we saw in Taliban-dominated Afghanistan.”
“In short, their strategy is to drive the West out of the Middle East so they can hijack the Middle East out of globalization’s creeping embrace. We counter that strategy best over the long haul by seeking to connect the region to the outside world and allowing that connectivity to generate local demand from below for better and more representative government.” [/quote]
Nonsense. This plays right into the ideas that Bush and Cheney are selling, they they “hate us because we are free.” This is now the “they hate us because they are backwards and dont want to enter the modern world.
I think Michael Sheurer has it right. He is the CIA expert on bin Laden, so he would be in a better position to judge the motives of bin Laden and his group. He says, in regards to the motives of bin Laden and al-Queda.
“Our foreign policy, sir, about six items that bin Laden has isolated. I think if has a genius, that’s one of them. He has created an agenda that appeals to Muslims whether they are fundamentalists or liberals or moderates. Our unqualified support for Israel is one. Our ability to keep oil prices low, enough for Western consumers, is another. Our presence on the Arabian peninsula certainly is another. Our military presence in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, in Yemen, in the Philippines, in other Muslim countries is a fourth. Our support for governments that are widely viewed as suppressing Muslims–Russia and Chechnya, for example, the Indians in Kashmir, the Chinese in Western China. But perhaps most of all, our policy of supporting what bin Laden and I think much of the Muslim world regards as tyrannical governments from the Atlantic to the Indian Ocean, whether it’s the Al Sauds, the Kuwaitis, the Egyptian government, the Algerian government. He’s focused Muslims on those policies and it is a very resonant agenda.”
[url]http://www.fredschoeneman.com/archives/000702.html[/url]
Nowhere does this expert on bin Laden and al-Queda talking about globalisation, modernity, or the like. Why? Because it is nonsense, it plays into our own feelings of superiority, and makes it easy for ourselves to say “see, they dont hate us because of what we do, rather it is all THEIR problem.” Then we do not have to take a look at ourselves because it is all their problem.
Again, the CIA expert explodes one of the myths that Bush, Cheney and the far right are selling in the USA. Bin Laden is NOT out to destroy the USA. He says:
“His agenda is not to destroy America, Mr. Russert. He simply wants us out of his neighborhood. He wants us out of the Middle East. And I’m not–no, it would not change his agenda, but my point here is that America has a choice between war and endless war with the forces led by Osama bin Laden. And at some point, we need to take actions in our own interests that limit his ability to grow in power and popularity in the Muslim world.”
In his book he says “The military is now America’s only tool and will remain so while current policies are in place. No public diplomacy, presidential praise for Islam, or politically correct debate masking the reality that many of the world’s 1.3 billion Muslims hate us for actions, not values, will get America out of this war.”
It is ACTIONS Steve, not values, that make us hated Steve. Talk to any Muslim and they will agree. Mahmood has mentioned the very same thing here. If you go anywhere in the Middle East you will see the influence of America and the west all over the place. They buy into our culture, they buy our productions, we just cannot get them to buy our foreign policy. That, at the end of the day, is why they hate us. I have been all over the Middle East Steve and have been part of Muslim communities in three different continents. I have never seen someone talk against the US based on McDonalds, the availability of Dell computers, globalisation, or because the average age a women looses her virginity in the USA is age 16. I have seen it talked about based completely on US support for Israel, US troops in the Gulf, oil prices, support for dictators. Like it or not Steve they do not hate us for freedom or globalisation, they hate us because of what we do.
Re: Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
The problem is not with jealousy of your oil wealth but rather your use of that wealth to commit mass murder in the name of your religion around the world. If you stopped this shameful and evil war against the world to propagate your contemptible religion, Saudi Arabia would not be an object of contempt and loathing.
Steve
Re(5): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Steve,
Doctors from AMH made caravan visits to Saudi I until the mid 1950’s. Saudi’s to this very day continue to visit AMH. At one point if I remember my history correctly there was serious talk of opening a permanent clinic in Arabia aside from the temporary one used in Hofuf. I believe the then King of Saudi had given his blessing to do so. Dr. Paul Armerding wrote a book detailing AMH’s work in the Saudi titled “Doctors for the Kingdom” I think you will find it a good read.
The founders of AMH went through some very very tough times in Bahrain. The hospital has survived for over 100 years and I would like to think AMH has earned the respect of the people.
Re(6): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
It has I think. And well deserved too. Now they are not only a hospital, but an education centre as well as the only Alcoholics Anonymous venue to help those in need too. I know also they do take on a number of pro bono work especially to poor workers from the sub-continent as well as poor Bahrainis.
Re(3): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
And I’m not saying that we’re perfect Steve. You know that. I am as against the people who have written ‘death to America’ on ANY wall or edifice and more so on the people who allowed it to happen, and when it did, didn’t bother to wipe it and prosecute the perpetrators, or at the very least get their brains examined. The hate-mongering priests and imams should have the same treatment.
Nor do I deny that due to various factors – probably the most important of which is ill-education or plain ignorance, but largly due to the hate-mongering priests – hate America. Some with a passion like we’ve seen on 9/11. We can talk about the whys for ages and probably will reach some conclusions that we share, however, the more important question is how do you go about defeating them?
Would you bomb them out of existance? That most definitely will create more hatred that will rebound a thousand-fold on America.
Would you systematically put pressure on hate-host-nations to rectify their status by helping educate their people, care for them, bring them up in a decent society? This will most probably give back rewards in peace, but the downside is that these methods are actually very difficult and require an awful lot of patience. Yet still, even with this you will miss some pockets and someone somewhere will go terrorist on you. Would you then stop all your efforts because of this single person or group? Of course not, because you bought into the idea, rightly, that this will take one or two generations at least to correct the situation.
The American Mission Hospital in Bahrain was established in 1903. It’s been in Bahrain for more than 100 years and has helped an awful lot of Bahrainis get over their ills. The American Mission School (of which I am a product) has been one of the first private schools to start operation in Bahrain, that graduated thousands of students, almost ALL of which hold America as dear to them as it is to you. Would these two institutions produce a terrorist who wishes to eradicate “the great satan?” I would wager that it is very highly unlikely.
The presence of the AMH and the Al-Raja School (the American Mission School formerly) in Bahrain helped Bahrain be Bahrain and I think ensured that a sizeable section of the community not to hold America as a bad example or be the object of hate.
It is these things that make a difference.
I also recognise that you have to be vigilant at all times in any country. No matter how much we try, there will always be “crazies” who want us harmed. This particular period in time is dedicated to “Islamist” flavours, I can bet that if we eradicate all of this cancer in our midst, some other “ist” will come up to take its place. Unfortunately it is human nature.
Would I make excuses to these dimwits just because they are Muslim? Hell no, burn the beggars for all I care, but don’t use them as a large paintbrush to taint the whole of Islam or Muslims with.
Much Respekt!
At least one of my cousins were born at AMH. My brother and I availed of AMH’s facilities numerous times. They’ve taken care of more than a few bumps, bruises and shots. Some of the people there have really touched us with their friendliness and genuine care.
Especially among the Bahraini staff, you could tell that they sincerely enjoyed working there, unlike their more harrowed counterparts at the gov’t clinics. And the neighborhood behind them, you wouldn’t think that they’d have much to say about an ‘American’ facility. Immediately behind them is one of the largest cemeteries in Manama (I’m almost certain it’s Shi’a) The neighborhood is old and most of its residents are poorer and less educated. Not too far away is an old Persian section of town. Yet the worst incident that comes to mind was when my aunt’s car was stolen from their parking lot some 7-8 years ago. And that counted as Scandalous. Yes, with a capital ‘S”.
Infact, during the riots of the mid-90s, my parents drilled into us about avoiding those sections of town. I didn’t care, I spent one Thursday afternoon playing pick-up basketball at Al-Raja. No one bothered me, it was a safe haven. I’m sure there were plenty of other factors. Still, in the middle of all that turmoil, Al-Raja and AMH got through unscathed and we were never bothered for partonising their facilities.
Re(6): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
MALIK,
You keep quoting Scherer’s arguments as if he were the only terrorism expert in DC. He’s not. Scherer, and you, do not address the next obvious question – why didn’t bin ladin ram planes into the buildings of all the middle-eastern governments he hated? Not a single one is being kept in power by US troops. US political support of Saudi Arabia won’t protect it against a popular revolution, just like it didn’t protect the Shah.
Yeah, bin ladin railed against US troops in Saudi Arabia. He railed against the Palestinian conflict but he really didn’t give it more importance than he did Kashmir. He’s got his own elaborations on US foreign policy.
I’m not going to defend Israel but for the rest … Kashmir? We have nothing to do with that, except trying to keep both sides from lobbing nuclear bombs at each other. Chechnya? The US was screaming about human rights violations there for years. The Russians actually accused us of helping Georgia smuggle weapons to the rebels. Suppression of Muslims in Western China? We’re not supporting the Chinese in anything except their desire to get rich. The Phillippines? We were invited there.
Just because bin Ladin, thinks it, does not make it so. Because he’s bamboozled millions of Muslims into believing his science-fictionalized version of US policy, does not make it so. It’s not all about foreign policy, Malik. Read his letter to America and you’ll see how he disses Western culture quite profusely. How he calls us infidels and kufrs and asks us to convert to Islam. I think there is some resentment of western power and western culture among the 1.3 billion Muslims because a lot of bin Ladin’s foreign policy arguments just have no basis in fact.
Aliandra
Re(8): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]MALIK: Because these people honestly believe they will get nowhere as long as the US supports these dictators.[/quote]
This is the same exhausted jazz of blaming the US for their own apathy. Inshallah and all that. If the US isn’t supporting the government financially or militarily, the people can have a revolution anytime they want. US support of the Shah didn’t save the Peacock Throne. And if those people really think condemnation is going to make bad governments play nicely, take a look at Darfur. The US has been screaming (and louder than any middle-eastern gov) for close to a year now, with little effect.
[quote]Until the US abandons its support for the Saudi government, for instance, there can be no “revolution.” The US has pledged support, of a military nature, to protect the Saudi government. In the event on any revolution in Saudi, you can be assured US troops would be involved in one way or another. If for nothing else than to secure the oil fields.[/quote]
Don’t count on it. After the guerrilla war in Iraq, the US will be very content to let the Saudis fall where will. Any new government must still maintain itself financially, so the oil will keep on flowing.in
[quote] Actually, we are pretty close with India. If we are interested in democracy, how about letting a free and open vote decide the future of Kashmir?[/quote]
We are also pretty close to Pakistan. And it is not in our power to “let� Kashmir do anything, but rather the power of Pakistan and India.
[quote] Since 9/11 we have been very quiet about this situation, even as thousands disappear still at the hands of the former Soviet state. We have allowed Putin and the Russians to dress their campaign of murder and agression against the Chechans in the same light as our “war on terror”. That is nonsense.[/quote]
We do not “allow� Putin to do anything. We are not Russia’s mommy, we cannot control what they do. When kids get massacred in Beslan, do you really expect us and the international community to tell Russia to take it on the chin? THAT is nonsense.
[quote] There is no religious freedom for the peoples in this area. The US has failed to address this, and has actually granted Chinese wishes. [/quote]
Malik, there is no religious freedom for anyone in China excepting Buddhists, and the government frowns on that too.. Look at the persecutions against Christians and Falun Gongers. The US has consistently condemned this but we do not have the power to make the Chinese behave.
You keep believing the US has some magic wand we can wave over these pumpkins and turn them into princesses. We don’t. Deal with it.
[quote] Sure, to take part in the long history of oppression against the Muslim population there.[/quote]
Umm .. Malik, it was Muslim terrorists attacking Catholics that forced the Phillipine government to call us in.
[quote] the people who are willing to support him and fight and die for him do not do so based on his feelings about Western culture, they do it out of real concern for valid issues they have with US policy. [/quote]
That does not consistently hold up. What about the attack on the French oil tanker off the coast of Yemen? The attacks on Christian churches in Pakistan? The Bali nightclub where one Jamaah Islamiya fighter said that bars were a menace to Islam? The Baptist hospital in Yemen where the attackers claimed the staff was proselytsinig? What about attacks planned all over Europe in 2002, including a chemical attack on French citizens?
What do all of these have to do with US foreign policy?
Nothing.
Even bin ladin said his jihad was “fundamentally religious� at one point.
[quote]I think the US acts on nothing more than self interest in most cases and does not look into the future, which is why it makes so many major mistakes. [/quote]
ALL countries act in their self interest. Nothing unusual about it. Sometimes mistakes are made, sometimes they are not.
Aliandra
Re(9): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]
MALIK: Because these people honestly believe they will get nowhere as long as the US supports these dictators.
This is the same exhausted jazz of blaming the US for their own apathy. Inshallah and all that. If the US isn’t supporting the government financially or militarily, the people can have a revolution anytime they want. US support of the Shah didn’t save the Peacock Throne. And if those people really think condemnation is going to make bad governments play nicely, take a look at Darfur. The US has been screaming (and louder than any middle-eastern gov) for close to a year now, with little effect. [/quote]
Again, you just dont really understand how things work. Take Egypt, for example, the 2 billion(plus military aid) the US gives the dictator there a luxery that would not exist otherwise. Money that would have to be diverted to other state functions are freed up by US aid so that the government can employ massive resources in their repressive security forces. Without this money something would have to give, either the security forces and military or other state functions that would imperil the very well being of the government itself. Having a “revolution any time they want” isnt as easy as you make it sound.
[quote]Until the US abandons its support for the Saudi government, for instance, there can be no “revolution.” The US has pledged support, of a military nature, to protect the Saudi government. In the event on any revolution in Saudi, you can be assured US troops would be involved in one way or another. If for nothing else than to secure the oil fields.
Don’t count on it. After the guerrilla war in Iraq, the US will be very content to let the Saudis fall where will. Any new government must still maintain itself financially, so the oil will keep on flowing.in [/quote]
The US’ own policies towards the Saudi government are ones based on mutual(read Saudi) protection. The US would be bound by its own policies to intervene in any potential uprising in Saudi Arabia. The US would have to protect its oil supply. If you honestly think any extremist government emplaced in Saudi would continue the oil supply, as it is, to the US, you are deluding yourself. Absent any real moderate opposition, any revolution in Saudi would be an extremist one that would almost certain stop the oil flow to America instantly. As to needing to maintain its finances, there are many willing buyers of their product, Europe and China to name a few.
[quote]Actually, we are pretty close with India. If we are interested in democracy, how about letting a free and open vote decide the future of Kashmir?
We are also pretty close to Pakistan. And it is not in our power to “let� Kashmir do anything, but rather the power of Pakistan and India. [/quote]
We are close to Pakistan based on a convienience. Nothing else. We dont have “the power” to do a lot of things. But we do have the power to place restrictions on aid and military support to countries that have policies that we find are contrary to democracy and human rights. The inability of the Kashmiri people to choose their own futures is one of those we should exercise our power on.
[quote]
Since 9/11 we have been very quiet about this situation, even as thousands disappear still at the hands of the former Soviet state. We have allowed Putin and the Russians to dress their campaign of murder and agression against the Chechans in the same light as our “war on terror”. That is nonsense.
We do not “allow� Putin to do anything. We are not Russia’s mommy, we cannot control what they do. When kids get massacred in Beslan, do you really expect us and the international community to tell Russia to take it on the chin? THAT is nonsense. [/quote]
We have allowed him to co-opt the “war on terror”. Yes, we have allowed them to do this by not correcting him when he claims that his battle is the same as ours, it clear is not, neither is the Israeli situation with Palestine. As to children being massacred in Beslan, I fail to see how you can not mention the deaths of over 10,000 Chechan children. Why do they not matter to you? Isnt it a bit hypocritical to rant about 300 children in Russia and ignore 10,000 in Chechnya?
[quote]There is no religious freedom for the peoples in this area. The US has failed to address this, and has actually granted Chinese wishes.
Malik, there is no religious freedom for anyone in China excepting Buddhists, and the government frowns on that too.. Look at the persecutions against Christians and Falun Gongers. The US has consistently condemned this but we do not have the power to make the Chinese behave. [/quote]
We do, however, have the right to correct the Chinese, like the Russians, when they claim to undertake their repression and point at US post 9/11 actions as examples. We do have a right to not cave into Chinese pressure and ban legitimate Muslim opposition groups in the area.
[quote]You keep believing the US has some magic wand we can wave over these pumpkins and turn them into princesses. We don’t. Deal with it. [/quote]
If we cant do anything, why does Bush keep on harping about us being a “beacon to the world” when it comes to democracy? We can do a lot, we refuse to.
[quote]Sure, to take part in the long history of oppression against the Muslim population there.
Umm .. Malik, it was Muslim terrorists attacking Catholics that forced the Phillipine government to call us in. [/quote]
Yes, of course. So you are stating there has been no historic repression of Muslims in the Phillipines? I just want to clarify that before I get the links for you.
[quote]the people who are willing to support him and fight and die for him do not do so based on his feelings about Western culture, they do it out of real concern for valid issues they have with US policy.
That does not consistently hold up. What about the attack on the French oil tanker off the coast of Yemen? The attacks on Christian churches in Pakistan? The Bali nightclub where one Jamaah Islamiya fighter said that bars were a menace to Islam? The Baptist hospital in Yemen where the attackers claimed the staff was proselytsinig? What about attacks planned all over Europe in 2002, including a chemical attack on French citizens? [/quote]
You are unaware of the history of the French in North Africa, or its support for the coup against the democratically elected government in Algeria? You are unaware of oppresive French measures that single out Muslim religious practices? The Bali club was targeted because of Australian support for the US war in Iraq. I do not defend attacking civilians, but I tell you that these attacks are symbolic of these people’s hatred for the policies of these countries, plain and simple.
[quote]What do all of these have to do with US foreign policy?
Nothing.
Even bin ladin said his jihad was “fundamentally religious� at one point. [/quote]
Of course he would. Would he try to rally Muslims to fight based on secular policies and reasoning? What he has done is put a religious coating on what are essentially political issues.
[quote]I think the US acts on nothing more than self interest in most cases and does not look into the future, which is why it makes so many major mistakes.
ALL countries act in their self interest. Nothing unusual about it. Sometimes mistakes are made, sometimes they are not. [/quote]
Not all countries have the ability to influence the world the way the US does.
Re(10): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]Without this money something would have to give, either the security forces and military or other state functions that would imperil the very well being of the government itself. Having a “revolution any time they want” isnt as easy as you make it sound.[/quote]
Malik, I am not talking about Egypt. If I could, I would cut off every dime to them as well as to Israel. There are 14 countries in the mid-east, about 20 if you bring in North Africa. We do not give the majority of those governments a foreign aid allowance or even political endorsement. It’s true that revolutions are not easy, but people are deluded if they think we are preventing them. We are not.
[quote] The US would be bound by its own policies to intervene in any potential uprising in Saudi Arabia. The US would have to protect its oil supply. If you honestly think any extremist government emplaced in Saudi would continue the oil supply, as it is, to the US, you are deluding yourself. Absent any real moderate opposition, any revolution in Saudi would be an extremist one that would almost certain stop the oil flow to America instantly. As to needing to maintain its finances, there are many willing buyers of their product, Europe and China to name a few.[/quote]
No, Malik, we will not defend Saudi Arabia. You are deluding yourself. It was our presence in SA that got us 9-11 We are not going to make the same mistake twice. Saudi oil must go on the market anyway and if we do not buy it from whoever else is in power, we will buy Saudi oil from Europe or China. Or buy Iraqi oil. Everyone likes to make a profit, after all.
[quote] We have allowed him to co-opt the “war on terror”. Yes, we have allowed them to do this by not correcting him [/quote]
Not correcting him? Are you serious? We are not Putin’s grade school teacher. We cannot correct the words every idiot out there anytime they say something you disagree with. We have our own problems.
[quote]As to children being massacred in Beslan, I fail to see how you can not mention the deaths of over 10,000 Chechan children. Why do they not matter to you? Isnt it a bit hypocritical to rant about 300 children in Russia and ignore 10,000 in Chechnya?[/quote]
None of whom were targeted simply for being children. They got killed along with all other civilians in a really bad conflict.
When you target children only because they are children, you are bringing your battle to a different low. And since you like to talk about hypocrisy, how about the 100,000 or so Christians massacred in East Timor by Muslims? What about all the East Timorese kids? Why do they not matter to you? Isnt it a bit hypocritical to rant about 10,000 children in Chechnya and ignore 100,000 victims in East Timor, a good chunk of which were children?
[quote] If we cant do anything, why does Bush keep on harping about us being a “beacon to the world” when it comes to democracy? We can do a lot, we refuse to.[/quote]
Beacons are passive objects, Malik, if you want to get technical. We can do a lot by brute force, not much by words. And yes, we do and should refuse to use our military to fix every problem out there. No amount of public condemnation is going to make any of these Darth Vaders behave. Witness Darfur, the worse massacre of this century. Witness all the condemnation on religious suppression in China. No results.
[quote] So you are stating there has been no historic repression of Muslims in the Phillipines?[/quote]
Once oppressees start making their case by blowing up civilians, they lose all sympathy with me.
[quote] but I tell you that these attacks are symbolic of these people’s hatred for the policies of these countries, plain and simple.[/quote]
Well at least you’ve acknowledged that it’s not all about US foreign policy. But while we’re at it, what do bombing of Pakistani churches symbolize?
[quote] Not all countries have the ability to influence the world the way the US does[/quote]
Once again, you repeat the same nonsense. We are not godlike. We cannot make every dictator in a funny hat into a gentleman.
Aliandra
Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]
Without this money something would have to give, either the security forces and military or other state functions that would imperil the very well being of the government itself. Having a “revolution any time they want” isnt as easy as you make it sound.
Malik, I am not talking about Egypt. If I could, I would cut off every dime to them as well as to Israel. There are 14 countries in the mid-east, about 20 if you bring in North Africa. We do not give the majority of those governments a foreign aid allowance or even political endorsement. It’s true that revolutions are not easy, but people are deluded if they think we are preventing them. We are not. [/quote]
Do you not think supporting the ruling governments in any way is wrong? I think we ought to link any support to reform in these countries. But, even your statistics are wrong. According to the US government, between 1950 and 2001 we have given some 151 billion dollars in aid from countries ranging from Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Israel. We give military funding to places like Saudi Arabia, Oman, UAE, Bahrain and Qatar. http://www.usembassy.it/pdf/other/RL32260.pdf
[quote]The US would be bound by its own policies to intervene in any potential uprising in Saudi Arabia. The US would have to protect its oil supply. If you honestly think any extremist government emplaced in Saudi would continue the oil supply, as it is, to the US, you are deluding yourself. Absent any real moderate opposition, any revolution in Saudi would be an extremist one that would almost certain stop the oil flow to America instantly. As to needing to maintain its finances, there are many willing buyers of their product, Europe and China to name a few.
No, Malik, we will not defend Saudi Arabia. You are deluding yourself. It was our presence in SA that got us 9-11 We are not going to make the same mistake twice. Saudi oil must go on the market anyway and if we do not buy it from whoever else is in power, we will buy Saudi oil from Europe or China. Or buy Iraqi oil. Everyone likes to make a profit, after all. [/quote]
So the US establishment is lying to the Saudis? You think? If we had to buy oil from second sources it would double or triple the price. What would that do to the US markets? As to our presence in SA that got us 9/11, we are still in SA, just in smaller numbers. Our troops havent left the Arabian Peninsula, we have just shifted them. More in Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, ect.
[quote]We have allowed him to co-opt the “war on terror”. Yes, we have allowed them to do this by not correcting him
Not correcting him? Are you serious? We are not Putin’s grade school teacher. We cannot correct the words every idiot out there anytime they say something you disagree with. We have our own problems. [/quote]
We recently corrected him on the role of the Soviet Union/ WW2 and the history of his country after the war. Why wouldnt we seet him straight when he claims that the US is an ally in the fight on terror and includes Russian actions in Chechnya?
[quote]As to children being massacred in Beslan, I fail to see how you can not mention the deaths of over 10,000 Chechan children. Why do they not matter to you? Isnt it a bit hypocritical to rant about 300 children in Russia and ignore 10,000 in Chechnya?
None of whom were targeted simply for being children. They got killed along with all other civilians in a really bad conflict. [/quote]
No, they were targeted solely because of their ethnicity and religion! The Russians dont care who they kill, women, children, civilians. What is the difference?
[quote]When you target children only because they are children, you are bringing your battle to a different low. And since you like to talk about hypocrisy, how about the 100,000 or so Christians massacred in East Timor by Muslims? What about all the East Timorese kids? Why do they not matter to you? Isnt it a bit hypocritical to rant about 10,000 children in Chechnya and ignore 100,000 victims in East Timor, a good chunk of which were children? [/quote]
When you target everyone because of their religion or race I have an issue with it. I never said I didnt have a problem with what happened in East Timor, we were not talking about Indonesia. You bringing it up trying to use it against me is like saying “because you didnt mention hundreds of thousands of dead kids in Congo, you dont care about them, you are a hypocrite.” I am stating general ideas here. I reject the idea of killing children at all, and in terms of who has killed whom, Russians have killed far more children than Chechans. Fact. The issue I have is why people paid so much attention to 300 kids and ignored 10,000 children killed.
[quote]
If we cant do anything, why does Bush keep on harping about us being a “beacon to the world” when it comes to democracy? We can do a lot, we refuse to.
Beacons are passive objects, Malik, if you want to get technical. We can do a lot by brute force, not much by words. And yes, we do and should refuse to use our military to fix every problem out there. No amount of public condemnation is going to make any of these Darth Vaders behave. Witness Darfur, the worse massacre of this century. Witness all the condemnation on religious suppression in China. No results. [/quote]
Yes, passive actions. We need to stop any support these dictatorships are getting and base anything they get on reforms. We should not support the dictators in Egypt and Jordan, we should not give military aid of any kind to places like Kuwait.
[quote]So you are stating there has been no historic repression of Muslims in the Phillipines?
Once oppressees start making their case by blowing up civilians, they lose all sympathy with me. [/quote]
Really? So you do not support the state of Israel because of terrorist bombings by Jewish extremists that killed innocents at places like the King David Hotel?
[quote]
but I tell you that these attacks are symbolic of these people’s hatred for the policies of these countries, plain and simple.
Well at least you’ve acknowledged that it’s not all about US foreign policy. But while we’re at it, what do bombing of Pakistani churches symbolize? [/quote]
It is an overall radicalisation, partially caused by US policies, mainly caused by failed governments.
[quote]
Not all countries have the ability to influence the world the way the US does
Once again, you repeat the same nonsense. We are not godlike. We cannot make every dictator in a funny hat into a gentleman.
[/quote]
I never claimed we were godlike. Are you claiming there are countries out there that have the influence the US has? Which ones if you dont mind.
Re: Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]MALIK: According to the US government, between 1950 and 2001 we have given some 151 billion dollars in aid from countries ranging from Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Israel. We give military funding to places like Saudi Arabia, Oman, UAE, Bahrain and Qatar.[/quote]
Separate out those who get an ongoing allowance, like Eygpt and Isreal, from those who are getting paid for a service, like the lease of a base. Service charges are not considered foreign aid. The oil states would not need it.
[quote] So the US establishment is lying to the Saudis? You think? [/quote]
We’ve never lied to them before? You think?
[quote] If we had to buy oil from second sources it would double or triple the price. What would that do to the US markets?[/quote]
Not as much damage as you think. We are a wealthy country and most of our manufacturing has moved to China – we are not really heavy industry anymore. It would probably hurt the SUV owners but … they deserve it.
[quote] No, they were targeted solely because of their ethnicity and religion! The Russians dont care who they kill, women, children, civilians. What is the difference?[/quote]
You tell me. You were the one complaining only about the children.
[quote] I never said I didnt have a problem with what happened in East Timor, we were not talking about Indonesia. You bringing it up trying to use it against me is like saying “because you didnt mention hundreds of thousands of dead kids in Congo, you dont care about them, you are a hypocrite[/quote]
Nope, I did the “Malik Tu Quoque Tango� very intentionally because I was getting tired of seeing it all the time. Change the argument by diverting the reader’s attention to something else. For example, “Poster: Muslims kill the Parsees of Persia.� Malik: “You hypocrite! The Crusades! The Crusades!�
[quote] Really? So you do not support the state of Israel because of terrorist bombings by Jewish extremists that killed innocents at places like the King David Hotel?[/quote]
Not sure what your point is. Israel is there, it is not going away.
[quote] It is an overall radicalisation, partially caused by US policies,[/quote]
Christian Pakistanis get attacked by Muslim fanatics and again Team Malik blames the US.
[quote] I never claimed we were godlike.[/quote]
Then stop expecting us to act like it.
Aliandra
PS. This debate would better be taken to the forums before Mahmood reminds us.
Re(1): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Aliandra take your time, I’ve given up. And thank you for reminding me that I’m a neat freak. Thank goodness that Xaraya has a nice search module embedded.
What the Qaeda wants ??
well ive read allot on this site about islam, and how somehow the western media has made a few people to believe that its a religion of “evil”,”barbarism”, etc.. that calls for the death of all “infidels”
These comments are baseless. i dont want to go into Judaism, or christianity to show how a few comments taken out of context could be made to have terrible meanings.
What i can do is try to explain the mentality of bin laden and his group, ( although i dont agree with their actions) i think its a joke for the american president to stand and say “they attacked us because they hate freedom and the american way of life” get serious, thats absolute nonsense.
Muslims are allowed to take up arms IN SELF DEFENSE to protect their lives, properties, houses, countries, and their religion. There is no such thing as a “Holy War” in Islam, that phrase was coined during the crusades.
“Jihad” means ” to struggle” in the face of ones own weakness, or against oppression.
Jews lived in arab countries for several years, which were considered to be the most peacefull in their own history. But when zionism took shape and they started mass immigration to palestine, and took control of it, muslims were obliged TO DEFEND their lands, houses, farms, country etc.
This obligation is not only for palestinians, but for the whole muslim body to defend itself.
America delcared a state of “Nuclear Alert” and was prepared to go to war in aid of israel,during the 1973 war between arabs and israel. Thereafter the USA has continued to supply the zionists with weapons and money, as well as political and diplomatic support ( over 85% of all VETO’s used by the USA were used to prevent condemnation of israel, or force it to take certain actions)
THE ROOT OF ALL MIDDLE EAST TERRORISM IS ISRAEL, and i challenge any other explanation. ( in Iraq, the insurgents are fighting to liberate their country from US occupation, )
Bin laden announced on television that he considers the actions of the USA as acts of war against islam, especially concerning palestine. He delcared war on the USA on Jazeera TV.
As the case with any war, the prime targets are centers of economy, power, and military command, which were the exact targets that they aimed for in 9-11, (once again i dont agree with their actions, im just explaining them)
If they wanted to kill the maximum number of civilians they could have targeted the superbowl, or disney land or any other civilian gathering.
I am a muslim, and i love americans, ( not the american governments) id love to live in america, so would most of the people i know, so u cant say that we are “enemies of freedom”, or “against the american way of life”
In my opinion, this is not the right place to discuss religions, especially with so much insults flying around, so try to keep ur posts social, or political.
and a sub-note to muslim readers ( la tujadilu fil din).
Re(7): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
[quote]
You keep quoting Scherer’s arguments as if he were the only terrorism expert in DC. He’s not.[/quote]
I never claimed that he was. But what I can tell you is that in my years of travel to the Middle East and interaction with Muslim communities in Europe, the USA and the Middle East tells me that his analysis is the best one out there.
[quote] Scherer, and you, do not address the next obvious question – why didn’t bin ladin ram planes into the buildings of all the middle-eastern governments he hated? Not a single one is being kept in power by US troops. US political support of Saudi Arabia won’t protect it against a popular revolution, just like it didn’t protect the Shah. [/quote]
You are trying to make me prove statements neither I nor Sheuer have made. Neither of us claimed US troops are keeping anyone in power, except maybe in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is US financial and military aid that is proping up these governments. 2 billion dollars a year to people like Hosni Mubarak in Egypt certain make it possible for this dictator and others like him to continue their repression of their own people. Why didnt bin Laden crash jets into Middle Eastern buildings? I am not expert but here is a few of my thoughts:
1. Propaganda value. An attack against the US, seen as the supporter of dozens of dictator states would have high propaganda value. If you can attack America, you can attack anywhere right?
2. Because these people honestly believe they will get nowhere as long as the US supports these dictators. To a certain extent they are right. Until the US abandons its support for the Saudi government, for instance, there can be no “revolution.” The US has pledged support, of a military nature, to protect the Saudi government. In the event on any revolution in Saudi, you can be assured US troops would be involved in one way or another. If for nothing else than to secure the oil fields.
[quote] Yeah, bin ladin railed against US troops in Saudi Arabia. He railed against the Palestinian conflict but he really didn’t give it more importance than he did Kashmir. He’s got his own elaborations on US foreign policy. [/quote]
Yes, and his analysis of US foreign policy is one that is shared, to one degree or another, with a very large percentage of Muslims. As to Palestine, I think it is just another tool used to garner support. If we, Americans, were smart, we would use our ties with Israel to deny this to bin Laden and the extremists, instead of writing a blank check to Tel Aviv.
[quote] I’m not going to defend Israel but for the rest … Kashmir? We have nothing to do with that, except trying to keep both sides from lobbing nuclear bombs at each other. [/quote]
Actually, we are pretty close with India. If we are interested in democracy, how about letting a free and open vote decide the future of Kashmir?
[quote] Chechnya? The US was screaming about human rights violations there for years. The Russians actually accused us of helping Georgia smuggle weapons to the rebels.[/quote]
Since 9/11 we have been very quiet about this situation, even as thousands disappear still at the hands of the former Soviet state. We have allowed Putin and the Russians to dress their campaign of murder and agression against the Chechans in the same light as our “war on terror”. That is nonsense.
[quote] Suppression of Muslims in Western China? We’re not supporting the Chinese in anything except their desire to get rich.[/quote]
I have heard nothing from the US about oppression of the Muslim majority in certain areas of China. China is actually enacting a semi-covert policy that will lead to the ethnic cleansing of the Muslim population of this area. There is no religious freedom for the peoples in this area. The US has failed to address this, and has actually granted Chinese wishes when it comes to how the US views certain groups from the area.
[quote] The Phillippines? We were invited there. [/quote]
Sure, to take part in the long history of oppression against the Muslim population there.
[quote] Just because bin Ladin, thinks it, does not make it so. Because he’s bamboozled millions of Muslims into believing his science-fictionalized version of US policy, does not make it so. It’s not all about foreign policy, Malik. Read his letter to America and you’ll see how he disses Western culture quite profusely. How he calls us infidels and kufrs and asks us to convert to Islam. I think there is some resentment of western power and western culture among the 1.3 billion Muslims because a lot of bin Ladin’s foreign policy arguments just have no basis in fact.[/quote]
Yes, I do not think he cares for Western culture, never claimed he did. A good chunk of the people who support him do, however. What is more, the people who are willing to support him and fight and die for him do not do so based on his feelings about Western culture, they do it out of real concern for valid issues they have with US policy. I do not agree with you in regards to bin Ladens views of US policy. I think most of it has basis in fact, I think what I differ is in thoughts about the motivation of such policies. I agree with most of what he says is wrong with US policy, my difference is that I do not think that the US policies are anti-Islamic, they are not directed at Islam or Muslims. I think the US acts on nothing more than self interest in most cases and does not look into the future, which is why it makes so many major mistakes. US foreign policy must be addressed.
Re(1): Oh, this is too good to resist….
Dear Friend,
I wish to introduce to you a proposal which will be beneficial to us and which also needs to be handled with utmost confidentiality and secrecy for the purpose of success.
I am Lt.Col. Philip Mayoka (Rtd) the former Minister for Agriculture and natural resources and Director of Phillip Poultry Farms Limted. The
company, based presently in Abiokuta, Nigeria is into Poutry and other modes of farming. I intend to go into bussiness relationship with you and your contribution towards the achievement is highly needed.
I have to explain to you first on the resources available and the source of funding of this project.During my tenure of office as a Minister,a contact was awarded to an Asian company for the development of the poultry sector and this contract was overinvoced by me and the then Director General of the Ministry.The original contractor has been paid off since leaving behind,the over excess fund of $12.5Million USD .
All I am soliciting is for you to help recieve this fund as I will like to establish an agricultural farm over there in your country or anywhere you deem fit to be safe for us.
I will like to send you the funds of which you will use in the investment while I will come over to meet with you as soon as the money is with you.I am ready to give out 10% for the expenses and 20% will be your share while the rest will be for my investment I
intend doing over there . If you are contented with my offer,
send me a reply through my email address, and then we will proceed with the
documentations.
I am eargerly looking forward to your reply. Please include your phone
and fax numbers so that we can talk in person. Please for further correspondence endeavour to use this secured email
address : philipmayoka@yahoo.co.uk
Yours sincerely,
Lt.Col. Philip Mayoka (Rtd)
Re(1): Saudi Citizenship up for grabs
Dear Bro, Your not alone in ur struggle. Many saudi people are also battling to have the simple recognition of their islamic marriage certificate. Quran never preached prejudice / racism but its soemthing thats sadly floating around n be fired at locals and their foreign spouses.
Hiyyak Allah.