As if that was in any doubt whatsoever.
What are they going to achieve is preordained of course; here’s a glimpse:
Saudi Arabia and other Arab nations grudgingly agreed Friday to attend next week’s U.S.-sponsored Mideast peace conference, despite failing to get any guarantee of Israeli concessions.
See, this is politics, it is the art of the possible and reaching consensus. You give what you’re told and receive nothing in return.
No one can ever accuse us Arabs of not being generous.
Reminds me of that famous haiku poem which went like this:
Sit;
Down;
Stay.
Good luck guys, may the force be with you.
Comments
You forgot the most important part of the poem!
Shake hand…
Imperial March
The force is strong.
It’s good we have such well trained leaders, otherwise someone would have to put them down.
I find myself longing for this all to be over in the hopes that wackos like these will crawl back under their rocks and leave me alone.
sadly it does seem that Israel isn’t ready for peace , not now not 20 years late
now Olmert is asking us not only to recognize it as a state but a Jewish state , which would kill any chance of returning Palestinians to their lands ever
i remember i saw an interview on CNN with ( i think ) Olmert , and he was asked about the Arab proposal which had only 2 items ,, return to 1967 borders and the return of Palestinians to their lands and he said we can’t accept one or two , but lets talk about other stuff .
It’s a simple fact of life Palestinians will never have the right of return to ancestral lands inside Israel. The Arab League is just waiting for Israel to provide something in exchange so they’ll have cover to drop it.
Israel provided Gaza – a unilateral pull out. Yet rockets still fall on Sderot. Hamas flung political opponents off of buildings, and maintains a campaign of terror against Fatah followers and Christians in the strip.
Giving up the West Bank would be foolish given that track record.
I think Israel has conceded enough for now. I’d like to see the hatred stop from the Arab side. Then both sides can work toward an equitable solution.
Ethan
How do you propose the Palestinians stop hating the Isralis…by ceasing all forms of struggle and rolling over exposing their bellies accepting what ever fate their masters bring upon them? I can almost feel the love from here.
i actually would be very interested to see what israel would do if every single palestinian laid down their weapons and just did nothing at all….would it stop the israelis from building settlements….the wall…maintaining checkpoints every 100 meters…would it?
what exactly would the palestinians have to do…or not do..in order to stop the jewish spread of land seisure among them?
The only solution that would bring peace is total surrender by the Palestinians and the integration of the west bank and Gaza into a greater Israel.
This would require the Paletinians to give up their fruitless aspirations and integrate their society with the Israelis and would require the Israelis to apply equal rights to all inhabitants of both east and west banks.
But…… does anyone want that?
@ Lee Ann – “i actually would be very interested to see what israel would do if every single palestinian laid down their weapons and just did nothing at all….would it stop the israelis from building settlements….the wall…maintaining checkpoints every 100 meters…would it?”
Well, as has often been said, a Palestinian Gandhi using precisely such tactics might well have achieved what decades of undeclared warfare have failed to achieve.
What everyone seems to forget is that none of the Arab states want the Palestinian problem to ever be resolved. The day that happens the populations of those Arab states will start turning their attentions toward home and we all know the rulers of said Arab countries aren’t going to let that happen any time soon….
“i actually would be very interested to see what israel would do if every single palestinian laid down their weapons and just did nothing at all….would it stop the israelis from building settlements….the wall…maintaining checkpoints every 100 meters…would it?”
I would think that, in the current political situation of Israel, this would be greeted with positivity. With a real cessation of violence, diplomacy would very likely give the Palestinians almost everything they ask for.
Bahrainiac is right, however. The poor Palestinians are made pariahs not by the ‘evil Jews’, but by other Muslims. No Muslim country seriously invests in Palestinian infrastructure , neither do they truly support the Palestinian people as people.
They simply pretend to support them, but live vicariously through some ‘noble struggle’ that the Palestinians -alone- suffer.
The best offer for peace was made more than 2000 years ago regarding this matter. Read for yourself !!
“For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups. Together as one body, Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death on the cross and our hostility toward each other was put to death. He brought this good news of peace to you Gentiles who were far away from him , and peace to the Jews who were near. Now all of us can come to the Father through the same Holy Spirit because of what Christ has done for us. ”
Ephesians 2:14-17 ( from the new testment)
Unfortunately those that ignore this don´t really want peace they just want to insist on fighting for their way… In the future this same Christ will return and impliment this peace with his own hand. Then we will all be forced to accept His terms for peace but we would be wiser to do it before that day.
Israel did made a positive gesture by ending their evacuation of Gaza. The Palestinians then had a great chance to show the world they were civilized people worthy of consideration. Instead they destroyed the greenhouses left for their economic benefit, launched rockets at Israel in order to restart hostilities, and fell into internecine warfare, throwing each other off of tall buildings.
You can’t help people who won’t help themselves.
Brian – the descendants of no other refugee group has had a ‘right of return’. I don’t see how the Palestinians would be made an exception.
‘occupation of Gaza’ that should be
Just glad that Israel might normalise their relationship with Baharin so I can fly there. That’s all.
Brian – the descendants of no other refugee group has had a ‘right of return’. I don’t see how the Palestinians would be made an exception.
The historical comment is inaccurate, with the Ilois being a group that leaps immediately to mind. That said, I’m not advocating for the right of return, not after 60 years. It’s the Arab states who have kept more recent generations dispossessed as much as anything Israel has ever done.
Actually it’s a little-known historical fact that when the State of Israel sold the confiscated Palestinian lands to the Jewish National Fund, the proceeds were designated to be used for eventual compensation to the Palestinians as part of a final peace agreement. That fell by the wayside during the economic crisis of the 1950’s, when Israel had to deal with the influx of Jewish refugees from Arab countries. Interestingly, many Arab governments claimed the Jewish property in the name of compensating the Palestinian refugees, as well. They never saw anything from that money, either.
Oh really? The Jews claimed right of
return after how many centuries? And
most of them weren’t even the right
Jews. The Ashkenazis who dominate Israel
are descended from Khazar converts.
It’s cute the way you typed the first
thing that came into your head though 😉
Anoony;
I stand corrected to say ‘most descendants of refugee grouups have not had a right of return.’
I point out that many peoples totally in the millions during the bloody conflicts of the 20th Century have been forced from the homes. From the Greek & Turks in the early 1920s to the 15 million Germans driven out from what had been the Eastern part of Germany & the Sudeentland in Czechsolvakia to the millions of Hindus & Muslems forced to flee after Pakistan became independent to the better then half million Jews in Arabic countries forced out after the creation of Israel, Of all these peoples, only the Palestinians are considered still to be “refugees” after six decades and still insist on the right to return.
Why the inverted commas? And did you even
bother to read what I wrote? 3000 years
ago you-know-who had control of you-know-
where for about 75 years or so and now we
are all being told it’s theirs forever
because it says so in their Torah.
Now _that’s_ unique. And it’s been pointed
out to you by me. Twice. Do I have to come
up with a third iteration for you?
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“and now we
are all being told it’s theirs forever
because it says so in their Torah”
Well, it’s as good a story as anything the Palestinians are spinning, and both of them are completely irrelvant.
Fact of the matter is, the guy with the biggest bat, in this case the Brits, had their say of where and how the game was going to be played. Pretty age old tradition; it doesn’t make it right, but it’s what it’s always been.
So the right and wrong of the issue
is now suddenly to be ignored because
people who don’t slavishly support Israel
have a point? How predictable.
Very well: I urge you to pay attention
to those whose “bats” are growing with
each generation ;^) Try to set a
precedent of considering problems
with something other than your blunt
might-is-right tool, so that those
who supercede don’t see Israelica as
one-dimensional thugs, hmm?
Oh, and the Palestinian POV isn’t
“completely irrelevant” (note spelling).
The issue was played out within living
memory. I myself have seen property
deeds owned by Palestinians displaced
in that period.
The Pentateuch aint no property deed,
sparky 😕
Aonny,
Pretty funny stuff coming from one who is so….predictable.
Please don’t put words in my mouth; I clearly said it doesn’t make it right, but in your predictable manner of operation you choose to ignore that. I’m not impressed. Neither is your argument that the issue has been played out within living memory particularly valid either. It seems you have failed to mention addressing the rights and wrongs done to any other peoples other then the Palestinians, so please excuse me if I don’t buy your high moral ground song and dance routine.
Fact remains; guys with the bats make the rules. Bats change hands from time to time, and until we are all on the same team and willing to stand up for humanity; nothing will change. Keep trying if it makes you feel, but I predict…..nothing will change.
You mean there’s a greater validity?
Like what? Instead of starting on me
why don’t you discuss the topic? You
are wrong about living memory not being
valid. Those title deeds I saw meant
something – or are you only going to
mention that they are worthless without
the power to enforce them? Do you have
the moral authority to say such things
to the holders of those deeds?
Didn’t think so.
That’s because I’m on topic. Why should
I talk about anyone else at this point?
Give me one good reason.
Banal crap that means nothing. Your
horseshit is just random typing because
have nothing worthwhile to say about
this issue. Do you have anything other than “nothing will change”? Jeez, what
would we do without you, Nostradamus?
What profundity you display.
You think you’ve created an untouchable
hegemony with invulnerable structures.
You are wrong.
Annony,
Dont waste your time with them. This issue has been discussed ad infinitum on this blog. No matter what you tell them, its always going to be the Palestinian’s fault for simply existing, and not rolling out the red carpet for foreign European Jews.
Furthermore, as mdc indicated, the Palestinians should not waste time trying to rectify a wrong. The south African blacks did it, the American blacks did it, the Jews did it, but the Palestinians must not, and just “move on”.
Also, Jews get to move into their ancestral lands after 5000 years, but Palestinians cant do the same after 50. 🙄
-Ibn
The elephant in the room will kick us
all, Ibn. They don’t see it yet, but
it will happen.
It’s amazing how much money, time and
effort is devoted to keeping certain
issues unclear in American media.
Annony
you said
I don´t think Mdc meant that this is right but that it is a very sad fact of life… when you look back at history this is a recurrent problem . Why else would we have a nuclear arms race today if it weren´t so ?.
Q Why would a doctor when treating a patient want to check how others with the same disease responded to particular medicine.?
A To avoid unnecessary treatment that does not work or may infact poison the patient.
In this situation comparing the palestinian situation with others may be helpful to find a solution that would bring the greatest peace and justice to these people .
I personally feel very sad for the Armenian people and admire how despite their mistreatment they have overcome such adversity and gained much respect amongst their arab, muslim neighbours with their hard work and ingenuity. I daresay that this is the case with some Palestinians too but I wonder how much the nursing of a grudge against Israel is stunting their ability to overcome in their own situation . Yes it is an injustice but life is unfair and we all have to find positive ways to direct our disapointments and frustrations with others if we are going to be tools for good in this rather crummy world.. Many nations helped the Armenian refugees when they suffered genocide and gave them refuge and allowed them to make a fresh start. What are the neighbours around palestine doing to help these trouble palestian people ?
If the Armenians had waited for Turkey to say sorry and give them back their land and property before getting on with their lives they would still be living in ghettos in Lebanon and Syria Instead of blessing many nations that adopted them with their strength of spirit and industious character.
I mean ´troubled palestinian people´ 🙄 .
You patronise me. I read what he said.
It was a banal response to a point I
made. Everybody knows that the strong
prevail and everybody knows that this
isn’t always right. His response was
sophomoric.
This thread was about Palestinians and
Israel? It’s not necessary to trawl the
depths of space, time and casuistry to
discuss it. It’s very specific.
A cop-out. We don’t need silly metaphors
when we can discuss the situation directly
and stick to the point.
Why? Oh, and which people, which
comparison, would serve you best?
Ah yes, the Armenians. That would
suit a lot of people. Their neighbours
watched while they were butchered. It’s
interesting that those who suffered
from one of history’s largest and most
atrocious pogroms should be the ones that
come to your mind. Yes, let us look at
them. They lost and the few that are
left had to keep a low profile. I’m
sure many would like the Palestinians
to suffer a similar fate.
But oh dear, the Palestinians don’t
want that – and they have the temerity
to resist! Oh, their selfish insistence
on survival as a nation must really
get up some people’s noses!
Group hug! How sweet!
Oh, by the way, the world isn’t crummy,
it’s beautiful and would be even better
if people didn’t screw it up. It’ll be
great for the Pallies too once Israel
is forced by the ever-changing world’s
ever-changing circumstances to desist
from their disguised ethnic cleansing.
Just you wait … 🙂
Israel’s agenda regarding the Palestinians
is become more obvious to everyone outside
of the Western nations. Israel’s internal
racial and sectarian (if you don’t believe
me, then check) divides are becoming better
known. Israel’s appalling human rights
record is becoming harder to conceal.
When they traffic in Eastern-bloc women
or take organs from Palestinian bodies
or shoot Palestinian teenagers or when
their own soldiers say that what they
do is wrong the stories get into their
own newspapers if not ours.
Understand this, sweetcakes – if Israel
is a “state'” then a porn-star is an
“actress.”
But hey, it’s a crummy world, right?
Wrong.
A couple of observations, Victoria:
You are right and you make a very good
point, but this is why the Palestinian
struggle is harder.
Palestinians are, in general, a highly-
educated people. Wherever they settle
they appear to be hard-working and
successful. They don’t give up easily.
Annony I´m not sure where all the anger and spitefulness is coming from ,, maybe you weren´t breastfed as a baby and now are mad at the world . Or maybe on a more serious note you have actually suffered personally in this situation and are genuinely furious and frustrated. I don´t know, Im not a shrink but I had to laugh when you told me not to patronise you and then went on in the next paragraph to give a lesson on how to be super patonising…!! I quote..
Why not treat others the way you wish to be treated !!
I don´t agree , most sane people would like to see an end to this dismal story which would result in a sure justice for those Palestinians that have been the true victims.
but this is why the Palestinian
struggle is harder.
I don´t follow ?
I believe this and look forward to see the day that they can toss in their guns and cannons for pens and peaceful protest . Violence just begets more violence and it will never bring a peaceful solution. How can it ?
Now take a chill pill before hacking at the keyboard please for all our sakes… 😆
Victoria, Victoria, Victoria, you devote
more space to me and my “anger and
spitefulness” than you do to the issue.
Does it matter how I feel? Why?
Anyway, in the face of so much wilful
refusal to look at this issue square
in the face, I can only acquiesce. I’m
exhausted and I have a life to live too.
So OK, OK I’ll try to behave.
As for being patronising, well, one
good turn deserves another 😉
I’m glad you think I’m “super” at
it. I try to be good at whatever I
do.
Oh, and by the way, I was breast-fed
and I’m not mad at the world. The
world is beautiful, not crummy, remember?
Please try to consider all that I write
before you shrink me – it’s only fair 🙁
But anyway, back to brass tacks. I
apologise for my tone. It was uncalled
for. Can you forgive me? I have been
watching what happens in that part
of our beautiful world for over 20
years and although I’m a Westerner
who hasn’t suffered personally it is
to my mind one of the most painful
issues of today’s world, with far-
reaching consequences, that has
changed the lives of so many people
I know.
If you will, consider what I and others
have written regarding the issue itself,
not my barbed bouquets to you or anyone
else. When Balfour and his dry-skinned
cohorts sat down with drinkies and cigars
to draw lines in the sand they were acting
on behalf of some very cynical and very
callous people. You don’t have to believe
me. I ask you to take time out of what
is surely a busy schedule and read some
of the history of Israel and Palestine
since 1948 and more importantly before
1948, when the whole shebang was being
set up. It’s not pretty at all. And
there is no end in sight. And trust me
on this – if the Palestinians have to
roll over and concede defeat, then another
precedent is set for horror upon horror.
One more thing: it seems Theodore Herzl
was an atheist! I’ve been trying to go
figure but I can’t. Anybody got any clues
for me?
<
>
No Problem friend.. I respect a person that is big enough to apologise when they´re out of line… and I respect your opinions too.
I have family that have suffered in this situation and I can understand it from their point of view . Some are very embittered, but I have decided that no one is innocent in this .. Everyone on each side of the divide have had a part in the present demise. My faith in Christ helps me to avoid falling into the vicious cycle of revenge and blame and instead to follow literally Jesus´teaching not to return evil with evil but evil with good.
Ash made an interesting point earlier
blockquote>Well, as has often been said, a Palestinian Gandhi using precisely such tactics might well have achieved what decades of undeclared warfare have failed to achieve
The power of peaceful protest can be revolutionary and there are many examples of this in history but I also believe it is not easy and requires strong faith in the principle that good will always overcome evil in the end. Respect for God and his authority over us can empower us to do what doesn´t come
naturally.
I´m not familiar with His ideas . do you have a site I can check..?. my only reservation is that when someone claims to be an atheist they will obviously approach a problem without reference to a higher authority. They may have good sense but without being imformed from a spiritual aspect their idees will be two dimensional. I think there is more to this world then what we see , there is a spiritual dimension we need to also consider and respect.
Yes, Gandhi learned a lot from Thoreau’s
essay on civil disobedience. Not much
spiritualism required really. All you
need is a large majority on your side.
Unfortunately, the Palestinians are
outnumbered and are not being administered
by a post-war power whose interests lie
in getting out anyway. It’s a little
different. I suppose it might work if
the media allowed stories of peaceful
resistance to get out …
I’m done on this issue. I really am.
Vague principles are one thing, but
the devil is in the details. People
are refusing to look closely, and
I’m tired. Excuse me.
well this is what Ghandi said :
Jesus occupies in my heart the
place of one of the greatest
teachers who have had a
considerable influence on my life. I
shall say to the Hindus that your life
will be incomplete unless you
reverentially study the teachings of
Jesus… Make this world the
kingdom of God and his
righteousness and everything will
be added unto you. I tell you that if
you will understand, appreciate,
and act up to the spirit of this
passage, you won’t need to know
what place Jesus or any other
teacher occupies in your heart.
– Mohandas K. Gandhi
What we need are more visionaries like him in the middle east instead of ´glass half empty
pesimists …that see violence as the only way despite years of stalemate…
Let´s stay hopeful I say.. 😉
Victoria,
This is quite the statement. You seem to have some very deep seated opinions on the Israeli-Arab conflict but dont even know what the number one Zionist who started it all even stood for, let alone who he was.
Excuse me while I go perform open heart surgery.., Yes yes I know its hard – but why are you worried? Im a certified accountant you see.
-Ibn
The question I believe was whether he was an atheist or not and to be honest I have no idea do you ? Only God can know what someones belief is like , and even atheists on their death bed have been known to cry out to a creator they supposedly don´t believe in…
One thing is for sure he had a passion for the suffering of the jewish people at least as an ethic group and this motivated him to lobby for a homeland. If he had really achieved his goal the jewish state would be in Uganda!! and then maybe this conflict would not even exist who knows !. But I don´t see how this changes the predicament of present day palestinians. Do You ?