Ahhhh… Muharraqis

29 Apr, '06

kids supporting bin laden?

Very pretty aren’t they? Kids fronting a demonstration in Muharraq yesterday in support of “the Iraqi resistance” and the Palestinians. The demonstration was organised by some group calling themselves “National Justice Movement” in cooperation with the Shura Islamic Political Society and National Constitutional Grouping which brought out about 150 people, according to Al-Wasat (arabic).

brainfart!Now for the brainfart >>

Abdulrahman Abdulsalam, Shura council secretary general, salafist wahabiThe Shura Council’s Secretary-General Abdulrahman Abdulsalam denounced the children who have infiltrated the demonstration without the organisers’ knowledge, wearing bin Laden imprinted T-shirts, re-iterating his condemnation of such behaviour and is not by the organisation parties.

He would say that wouldn’t he? Oh, this is coming from a die-hard salafist who stood for elections in Arad in 2002 and failed (thank goodness) where Othman Sharif easily beat the crap out of him… Sharif of course got through on the backs of Shi’a voters in a predominantly Sunni area because voters there detest Abdulsalam because of his sectarianism, hatred of the Shi’a and being a Wahabi, and even though they objected to the name Othman (long story, maybe another time) they voted for him anyway – sectarian? You bet, on so many fronts!

But let’s stay with the current story: he and his lot want the Americans out of Iraq, and they also strongly denounced the Anglo-American occupation and praised the “resistance” in Fallujah, Ramadi, Baghdad and Mosul. They conveniently left out Karbalah, Najaf, Basra etc as they are (screw up your face and hold the tip of your nose as you have just smelled a 3-day-old dead rat in a closed space) Shi’a!

And this prick wants us to believe that they didn’t PUSH these children to wear those t-shirts and lift those placards with their god on them without their complete knowledge, encouragement and acceptance?

And this twerp is still in the sensitive position of Secretary-General of the Shura Council? The government actually condone his actions?

What would it take to get these people to realise that this is not the way to do things in this day and age? What would it take to get them to understand that their bin Laden is nothing more than a simple-minded brain-washed criminal? Until when will they stand with a criminal just because he happens to share their religion? And if bin Laden’s own brothers, family and country disowned him, why the hell do we have people in Bahrain not only supporting him, but raising their kids to believe that HE represents the right path?

No, as long as the government and society are not doing anything to educate people through their mosques and papers and clearly and unequivocally condemning bin Laden and his ilk, and as long as they not only support, but encourage sectarian strife, then this is the least of what we expect.

Next step (especially as we’re coming up to elections) is bombs in crowded places…

Anyway, here’s a translation of the full article done very very well, considering it’s just a beta feature of Google’s Arabic to English translation engine.

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  1. ⁂ Asterism | 3 May, '06
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  1. %50 says:

    Bin laden is not a terrorist, do you know how is ?…..
    yes, Iran and hizbullah are terrorists
    damn, wahabi are crap

  2. i dont know what to say but the image can say more about how some pepole think!!

  3. bahraini4eva says:

    Hey,
    I would like to answer some of the questions to the best of my knowledge.

    Until when will they stand with a criminal just because he happens to share their religion?
    They don’t stand with Bin Laden just because he shares their religion, but mainly because he shares their ideals. Remember, these ongoing wars in Afghanistan and Iraq to Bin Laden and his likes are considered a Crusade on Islam! Unfortunately, these brainwashed kids along with their parents of course who allow them to partake in such stupid demonstrations truly believe that the West is an “evil” force wanting to destroy Islam! I don’t believe these demonstrators fully agree with Bin Laden, as we all know that he isn’t fond of shi’as, but they do fully agree with the violence being taken against the “crusaders” to stop them from seizing control of Muslim territories; and since Bin Laden is the greatest proponent of violence against the West.. Well then, they love him!

    And this twerp is still in the sensitive position of Secretary-General of the Shura Council? The government actually condone his actions?
    Besides from the Secretary-General’s absurd personal beliefs, I think that such demonstrations do in fact need to be condoned, especially from our esteemed MPs who unfortunately have been voted in by our people. Hopefully, in the upcoming elections, this Abdulrahman Abdulsalam character will also be thrown out of the Shur Council, in which he’ll probably go to Saudi and join his Wahabi brothers in spreading more and more hate for the good of mankind.
    As to why the government does not condone his actions? My answer is simple: The government is enjoying the show! Look at it this way: our government is known for it’s long history of corruption; so by having jerks like Abdulsalam in the Shura Council, and others supporting Bin Laden and his gang, the government no longer has to worry about its reputation as people will instead now focus on such stupid crap like hatred of one another and the promotion of violence as a war on the West. I believe that our government has been very successful in keeping quiet and letting such ridiculous actions, as this demonstration, go by unaccounted for by merely making a public statement denouncing it. Afterall, look at our parliament, all the MPs talk about are their extremist Islamic beliefs such as chopping the arms off of burgulars and preventing Nancy Ajram from performing in a concert; whereas our government is having some popcorn and drinks, and enjoying the comedy!

    Peace

  4. Chanad says:

    FYI, the “National Justice Movement” (3dala) that organized this rally is the new political society set up last month by Abdullah Hashim. I discussed his plans to set up the party at then end of this post of mine from a while ago. The society’s website is: http://www.3dala.org/ . Contrary to my hopes at the time, it seems that the party has ended up becoming just another sectarian party.

    and btw, Abdullah Hashim also ran for election in the same Arad district alongside Othman Sharif and Abdulsalam, but he came in third place. I suspect he’s preparing himself for another attempt later this year.

  5. Citizen Quasar says:

    It is obvious that these little pukes and their parents want to kill ME.

    I say nuke them till they glow. Blow’em all to hell and DO NOT show the pictures of the dead little bastards on TV.

    In an order for me to better understand Islam (which I despise), will someone please post in this comment section exactly WHERE in the Koran people get inspiration for this sort of thing?

  6. Anonymous says:

    Where are the bastards from all this? What if they were shia demonstrating and khamanaii pictures with them? oh my god it will be a disaster riot police to f*** them up as they are loyal to Iran not their own countries!!

    Anon-4 ever

  7. mahmood says:

    Citizen Quasar, we have a saying in Arabic that you might benefit from, it goes something like this: If talk is like silver, then silence is like gold!

    Let me explain the context of this idiom: “if all your thoughts are crap, don’t expose yourself by opening you mouth and spewing that crap out.”

    You obviously don’t want to understand anything about us or Islam for that matter; and asinine comments like the one above more than demonstrate that.

    I’m not going to ban you (yet), but I am completely going to ignore you henceforth, as you to me have absolutely nothing to offer.

  8. mahmood says:

    Chan’ad I’ve met Abdulla Hashim before as well, and have followed his desperate and futile attempt to get into parliament. Strage that a so called respected lawyer would fall to this level, from a supposed liberal/socialist, he’s riding the coat-tails of the salafis and become even more sectarian than they are just so that there is an inkling of a chance that he might slip into parliament.

    Disgusting.

  9. mahmood says:

    Anon-4 ever, does that make these demonstrators loyal to Afghanistan or Saudi? Taken in the context you have put it in, yes, Al-Ayam should have been all over itself castigating them and calling their patriotism into question. Oh, and Al-Watan of course! 😉

  10. Anisa says:

    Once I was watching a movie with my young brother (I need to confess, it was not a kids movie) in the middle of it he looked at me, a puzzled look crossing his features and asked, Anisa, which one is the bad guy??

    My poor baby brother needed to know the bad guy to decide who to love and who to hate, (I think every body was just bad in that movie)

    this I call the Tom and Jerry effect…when you are a kid you only see the world in black and white, people as good and bad, and if some one is beating the bad guy then he must be the GOOD guy!!

    What does all this nonsense has to do with your post???

    It perfectly answers your question..

    “Until when will they stand with a criminal just because he happens to share their religion?” (I need to note that it has nothing to do with their religion)

    When they grow up, my dear, IF they ever did!!!

  11. mahmood says:

    Anisa, we should help them grow up by allowing them to hear our objections to their stances very clearly. This guy (Abdulsalam) for instance, is taking us ALL as fools in huffing and puffing and condemning having the children at the “show” and them carrying the pictures of OBL.

    Okay, let’s assume that he is telling the truth, it shouldn’t be at all difficult for the government to ascertain the identities of those kids (I just love their cherubic smiles) and having a chat with them. Once that is done, then they should be put into counseling immediately, and whoever enticed them to do what they did, behind bars, as it is quite clear in our Constitution and the Press & Publications Law (under review) that whoever incites and encourages violence should be jailed.

    Once they realise that there are consequences to their actions they will start to grow up. Not before.

  12. Iraqi says:

    “strongly denounced the Anglo-American occupation and praised the “resistance” in Fallujah, Ramadi, Baghdad and Mosul. They conveniently left out Karbalah, Najaf, Basra etc as they are (screw up your face and hold the tip of your nose as you have just smelled a 3-day-old dead rat in a closed space) Shi’a!”

    Well dear sir, maybe they left out the cities you mentioned, maybe, just maybe, because they lack resistance. Fallujah, Ramadi, Baghdad and Mosul have been fighting valiantly since day one.

    The south provinces fight when their ayatollahs ae feeling querky.

    And please, why not have the courage to explain the comment your made about the name Othman, in your next post?

  13. mahmood says:

    bahraini4ever Abdulsalam is NOT an elected, nor is is even an appointed member of the Shura Council. All he is is a glorified clerk, I guess that was his reward for standing in the elections and losing.

    The guy is only a preacher, and does not have enough qualifications for the huge position he has been put in. Can you smell W A S T A?

  14. mahmood says:

    Courage hasn’t got anything to do with it, my dear Iraqi, context does however, as the explanation is not needed to understand the issue at hand; however, thank you for reminding me about it now. A brief search in Wikipedia resulted in this:

    Shi’a view of Uthman:

    As the Shi’a believe that Ali, Muhammad’s cousin and son-in-law, should have been the first caliph, they regard Uthman as a usurper and an enemy of Ali (see Succession to Muhammad). They believe that he is guilty of all of which history accuses him: nepotism, corruption, double-dealing, and turning the empire over to Muhammad’s old enemies, the Umayyads. Shi’as believe that Uthman, like many of the other early Muslims, was seduced by the pleasures of power and wealth, and strayed from the strict path of Islam as followed by Ali. They also question the tradition that Uthman married two of Muhammad’s daughters, insisting that Ruqayyah and Umm Kulthum bint Muhammad were Muhammad’s step-daughters.
    Uthman ibn Affan on Wikipedia

    I trust this takes care of that part of your question.

    I shan’t bother with the other clearly sectarian part of your question.

  15. Will says:

    The solution for this kind of BS lies with the 5yr old in the picture. The one that doesnt look quite sure if he hates America. Broad based education.

    Makes me want to vomit.

    Can anyone recommend a good summary evaluation of the myriad divisions and power structures of the Muslim world?

  16. It’s really pointless to get angry at the kids themselves. Look at the two on the far right. They don’t have a clue and even look a little bewildered!

    I can just picture the father standing behind the camera man waving them on. Most likely an attempt by himself to impress his comrades. “Hey!, look at my boys!”

    The people behind such images really have to understand that this sort of propaganda impresses nobody, only instils disgust & pity at their pathetic attempt.

  17. tooners says:

    The pic looks like they’re trying to make it a lot of fun for the kids. A few of them seem to have a half-crooked smile on their face… they prob enjoy just having their pics made so they can run home and show all their family and friends.

    Sadly enough, the parents should be punished for allowing this and I agree w/ Mahmood, I believe the children should get counseling, but… when you have a home environment that is destructive, how can counseling truly work? When you have parents preaching hate, you grow up to feel hate and loathe certain ppl – not in all cases but in many.

    As an American and having worked in teaching when I first moved here, I saw firsthand the hate that many children have for NO REASON – just because I’m an American. It’s sad and also scary. Because these young minds will grow up and possibly get involved in things that we can’t fathom – just because they were preached and taught such crazy ideas. Again, the ppl teaching the crap should be held responsible. Someone – ppl – at some point, have to be held accountable for enticing such hate.

    I work w/ this guy – the Secretary General – I find all of this info QUITE interesting. But, I’ll tell ya, I do not think they’ll get rid of him. It will totally floor me if they do. There is SO MUCH politics at this office, you can’t imagine – OR – I know some of you can. It’s sickening and I hate it.

  18. tooners says:

    Mahmood, In relation to your comments (I forgot to add this earlier):

    “And this prick wants us to believe that they didn’t PUSH these children to wear those t-shirts and lift those placards with their god on them without their complete knowledge, encouragement and acceptance?

    And this twerp is still in the sensitive position of Secretary-General of the Shura Council? The government actually condone his actions?”

    Do you think that the govt cares what these kids do and who is behind it? I would really love to see something come out of this but I doubt if it’ll happen. Everyone has excuses and that ole “it wasn’t me” attitude, and ppl believe it… or they turn the other cheek.

    goodness, goodness… I’d love to say so much about that lovely working environment, but I wont.

  19. mahmood says:

    dinner tooners? 😉

  20. Waffles says:

    I was waiting for you to do a post on is, THANKS! 🙂

    I was really shocked to read this on the news, i was even more shocked to look at the pictures and what the kids have been wearing. I feel sorry for the kids, for having dumba$$ parents.

    This reminded me of the Denmark- Cartoons era, where Mohamad Khalid burned a flag.

    And i do remember another raly not sure when and where exactly, but the kids were carrying guns and dressed like soldiers. I think they were small AK-47 LOL

    Oh well… Thanks for writing about this Mahmood.

  21. Jared in NYC says:

    Sure does make one angry at the parents. This is the same kind of child abuse committed by white supremacists in the US who train their children in hatred of blacks, jews, catholics, whoever. Those awful people are much more marginalized in the US that the dusgusting parents of these poor kids are. Hopefully the damage can be reversed eventually.

  22. Al-hajeji says:

    This is bahrain!

    You see everybody, not everyone thinks like mahmood, we all have a concience! Remember for the last 13 years during the iraqi sanctions imposed by the UN had killed one million iraqi children

    One million iraqi children were killed by the sanctions over 13 years, most arabs carried on as if was normal, especially the khaleejis, and just like mahmood they care more about their garden plants and horses more than the blood of a muslim. Even they know that the Rusool once said that the drop of a muslim blood is more precious than whole ka’ba! But when a few westerners die, oh the shock they have and they automatically send HUGE donations.
    A woman entered hellfire, over a cat, (which) she did not feed, not did she leave to wander and eat from the earth’s bounty…so what are we going to tell our lord over ONE MILLION (Iraqi) CHILDREN, KILLED, NO ABILITY OR POWER HAVE THEY(to defend themselves)!!!
    What can one Man or Woman do? Except to say the words that grieves the heart and remind all of us:
    إنا لله وإنا إليه راجعون”
    To Allah we belong and to him we return.

  23. tooners says:

    Al-hajeji – you seem like a fanatic to me. It’s ppl like you that keep all this stuff going.

    This somewhat reminds me of the gang wars in the States. It never stops. Hatred breathes hatred. How many ppl have to die before it’s too late? Honestly though and thankfully, when I was in the States, I didn’t hear very much about gang killings and such which was a nice change.

    I have to agree w/ Jared in NYC… altho, I disagree in that I think white supremacists are more common than a lot of ppl want to believe. They’re everywhere in the south and there are big bands of the KKK in Indiana, Georgia, Texas, etc…. it’s not just the poor that are believing such and teaching such.

  24. tooners says:

    aahhh Mahmood… yes, dinner… so much to talk about! 🙂 me… info… nahhhh, you should hear from my better half! 😉 He hears all the good stuff… and in Arabic, which I tend to miss out on 🙁

  25. mahmood says:

    Al-Hajeji: You see everybody, not everyone thinks like mahmood, we all have a concience [sic]! Remember for the last 13 years during the iraqi sanctions imposed by the UN had killed one million iraqi children

    My my.. it’s always good to receive an opposing argument, and looking briefly through your blog, I can see where you stand: diametrically opposite from where I do, so it will be difficult to reconcile our views; however, I won’t call your integrity into action, nor will I go all sectarian on you. I think the best way to answer your assumption is to ask the Iraqis themselves who have been liberated of Saddam and his ilk for ever to take this one up.

    If I were them; though, I would say that although the sanctions did kill people, it was the regime itself which killed them rather than the sanctions, as the sanctions did not include humanitarian supplies nor medicines, and whatever oil-for-food goods that were received, were quickly diverted to Saddam’s and his friends’ coffers rather than allowed to reach the very people who needed them most. So, the real killers in this case is no other than the despot and his cabal.

    But that would be too much of an intellectual and factual concept for you to grasp, I should think.

  26. shipwack says:

    Thanks Mahmoud, for posting about this… I first ran across news of this in the democraticunderground.com website. You blog is always one of the first places I turn to for news about Bahrain.

    I find the pictures disturbing, but no more so than when I see the right-wing zealots in the US pushing their children to do similar things. The children are, as usual, innocent pawns or props. Stupidity knows knows nothing about national borders.

    The US is reaping the whirlwind of what it sowed, and too many innocents on both sides will pay the price. I hope when saner heads win back our House and Senate in ’06 sanity will start prevailing, though it’ll be a long hard road back to integrity and morality.

    Oh, and Citizen Quasar, you’re a disgrace to the US in particular and humanity in general. Your views are nowhere near what mainstream America thinks. Mahmoud has already said enough about Al-hajeji.

    “I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians… They are so unlike your Christ.” – Gandhi

  27. Al-hajeji says:

    mashkur ya mahmood ala al-jawab!

    What is wrong with my blog? In my blog I tell the people the stories of our heroes – The Women Warriors of Islam. You think it is an offense to mention our heroes once a while?
    Do you think I am a supporter of saddam or his henchman? Where are they now, I see their sons and daughters in london and suffolk, they go to college (which the government pay for), they were designer clothes, they go out everyday to fill their bellies and waste time cracking stupid jokes – why are they having the life of their time? Because saddams officers made a deal with the UK and USA, that deal was that they have a quick green card, with pensions and benefits, in return the officers give the US army details of where all the weapon storage are, including airliners and tanks, plus they promise not to attack the US forces, that is how they took iraaq so quick and easy.
    Where I come from, Bathist’s and communists are the same, to hell with them.
    And the iraqi people? What would like to know? Look at what happen to the city of 100 mosques-fallujah. Look at ramadi and mosul, look at the anbar region, OR HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN ABOUT ABU-GHRAIB ya mahmood??! Don’t you feel sadden when our muslim sisters are raped viciously by gangs of marines? would you like me to post you the audio? Have you forgotten how they treat the young men? They cut them up, set their dogs on them and force them to commit indecent acts.
    Don’t you care enough that these simple iraqi muslims have a small mention in your many posts, cant you just admit that this is wrong.
    Didn’t it occur to your self imposed intelligent mind that if the americans wanted to, they could’ve got rid of saddam straight after the invasion of kuwait? Why didn’t they? Because first they want to cripple and starve the land and wipe out a whole generation of iraqis. and then when they are soo weak, they move in for the slaughter and rape the land of its dignity and honour.
    If you disagree with me and think that the people of Fallujah deserved to be burn with uranium and abu ghraib is just a conspirace theory – then all i could say is; Allah Yahdeek! May Allah Guide you and us to the Straight path….

  28. bahraini4eva says:

    Al-hajeji,
    What you fail to notice is that before the War in Iraq, the Iraqis suffered in both the short-run and long-run. With the ongoing War in Iraq, the Iraqis are suffering in the short-run, but not in the long-run as, with democracy, the Iraqi people’s voices will be heard and criminal acts carried by the likes of Saddam and his regime will no longer be tolerated. I believe everyone today knows and understands that the War in Iraq was a tremendous horrible mistake, and have the US citizens been given the correct information concerning Iraq’s WMDs of which none exist, then the War in Iraq would have definitely not taken place.
    Al-hajeji,
    You must try to stop thinking on a one-sided extreme, and start taking into account the whole picture. All of the muslims around the world sympathize with the Iraqis and wish that the War ends soon, and so do many of the Americans who I have met here, along with many many other citizens of the world who believe the War was a huge mistake. Let’s not forget that when the US declared the War on Iraq, many nations objected, including the UN, but unfortunately this didn’t stop the US from going in.
    For you to think that this War has been carried out due to the US’s ambition to destroy Iraq is not only completely false but also ridiculous! I am not saying that the US government has decided to go into Iraq simply for the reasons it has given before striking.. There could have been an economic factor at play in which I am refering to Oil.. But you can not blame an entire nation for the action of it’s government. Many of the US citizens chose to be for the War because they truly believed Saddam and his regime had WMDs. It is not their fault they made that choice because anyone would have decided the same given the information they were given! When your country’s security is at risk, and a lunatic who hates your country has WMDs, then you strike!
    Al-hajeji,
    I ask you to please stop believing that all Americans are bad people which is what your comments sound like to me because most of the Americans I have met so far have been very welcoming and unbelievably nice and genuine people. Be a little open-minded, and remember MANY Iraqis are happier today than they ever were druing the decades of ruling by that ruthless dictator!!
    Spread peace, not hate!!

  29. Al-hajeji says:

    Ya hala bahraini…

    I am not iraqi, I am a yemeni, therefore go to iraq where all of the ahl al’sunnah lives – and say the same thing you told me to an iraqi, face to face, then let me know how it goes.
    I am not telling you what I think, I am merely stating the facts.

    Of course, you people of bahrain are mahboobeen! You are very nice & peaceful, so peaceful and loving you are holding the biggest US naval base there is, you are feeding, clothing, equiping their soldiers, you paid for the invasion and you let them suck up most of your oil during the 15 years they were “protecting you from saddam”, now that saddam is gone, the americans like your Generosity soo much, they decide to stay longer – yahoo! And even some of them are admiring your women to the fact they snatch and mess them around.
    Ya salaaaaaaamm…But when it comes to your fellow muslim arab, oh no, “keep him away, deport them! let his family die of hunger, we don’t care about them, they are arabs, they are muslims, they have too much honour and dignity” I wish i was a US marine!!
    Of course, I shall never judge a nation by one man; An American muslim, is our beloved brother in islam. A non-muslim american, we have to treat him fairly as long as he is fair. An arab kaffir, who is appointed leader and steals his own people should be damned to hell.
    So you see, I am not one-minded.
    Al-Hamdullah we are not all the same though, in october 2001 a US destroyer ship thought that all of the arabs are the same, and they decided if they can take a little more oil from yemen and at the same time mess with our women just like they did with your people – but when they did pass by, read what happened: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Cole_bombing
    You see, they stayed for less than ONE HOUR, then they experienced how hospitable we, the people of honour are….lol.
    But they stayed in bahrain for FIFTEEN YEARS!!!
    Makes me sick…

  30. bahraini4eva says:

    Al-hajeji,
    I don’t know where you are getting your information from, but it seems that we have very different views. It is obvious you are a supporter of the the terrorist networks (if not so, let us all know), because of your extremely flawed statements regarding the US and it’s history in the middle east. In any case, I as a Bahraini welcome everyone from every nation into my country as long as they abide by the laws and don’t cause trouble! I have met up with fellow US marines and know that they aren’t the villains you paint a picture of them to be. Yes, the US has committed crimes, and they acknowledge it too. Now it’s about time you start looking at what these terrorists have been doing in the name of Islam, because it is that that should really make you sick! Killing innocent people is against Islam and humanity, and all those who believe in such disgusting crimes must be punished and brought to justice. I have a feeling you will again disagree with me and just backfire with your anti-American taliban-like statements so I’ll end it here!

    Oh, and by the way, I have spoken to Iraqis and many feel blessed that Saddam is gone once and for all!

    Peace!

  31. Al-hajeji says:

    You are accusing me of supporting terrorist networks? No, you are wrong, I do not support terrorists.
    I support those who will not be terrorised by the occupiers who originate from the sons of pigs and monkeys, yes, the yahood and your friends.

    One day, you will agree with me – I know because I had experienced it.
    الله كريم

    يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى أَوْلِيَاء بَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلِيَاء بَعْضٍ وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُم مِّنكُمْ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْهُمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الظَّالِمِينَ {51}
    فَتَرَى الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِم مَّرَضٌ يُسَارِعُونَ فِيهِمْ يَقُولُونَ نَخْشَى أَن تُصِيبَنَا دَآئِرَةٌ فَعَسَى اللّهُ أَن يَأْتِيَ بِالْفَتْحِ أَوْ أَمْرٍ مِّنْ عِندِهِ فَيُصْبِحُواْ عَلَى مَا أَسَرُّواْ فِي أَنْفُسِهِمْ نَادِمِينَ {52}

    (51) O you who believe! take not as (your) Bitanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to Do their best to corrupt you. they desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses) if you understand.

  32. bahraini4eva says:

    I’m not shocked that someone like you, Al-hejeji, will quote a verse from the Quran and misinterpret it to incite hatred! I have read the Quran, and never in my life ever referred to one verse without looking at the text in which it’s referring to. Since you have brought up Surah 5 Verse 51, I would like to add a few others. This content has been retrieved from http://www.submission.org/christians/friends.html. I advice you to read the what the author has to say, as I believe it will do you some good.

    [5:51] O you who believe, do not take [certain] Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.

    Now, let’s look at some other verses about befriending the Jews and the Christians, or anyone not Muslim (Submitter) for that matter. These two verses are regulating relations with any people, regardless of faith;

    [60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

    [60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

    Thus, we learn that we are only enjoined from befriending those who fight us because of religion. Let’s go back to the verse immediately after 5:51, to see if it now sheds some more light on the issue.

    [5:52] You will see those who harbor doubt in their hearts hasten to join them, saying, “We fear lest we may be defeated.” May GOD bring victory, or a command from Him, that causes them to regret their secret thoughts.

    Thus, it is clear that this is a situation when there is a division and an overhanging conflict between the believers and the others. Otherwise, what would be the logic behind the statement. “We fear lest we may be defeated.”

    In these situations those with doubts in their hearts will ally themselves with the enemy.

    5:57 makes it clear again, who are not to be taken as friends;

    [5:57] O you who believe, do not befriend those among the recipients of previous scripture who mock and ridicule your religion, nor shall you befriend the disbelievers. You shall reverence GOD, if you are really believers.

    God teaches us throughout the Quran that there are righteous Jews and Christians. So, if we think we are righteous, and they are righteous, what could possibly be the problem between us, or obstacle for us to be friends?

    [7:159] Among the followers of Moses there are those who guide in accordance with the truth, and the truth renders them righteous.

    [5:46] Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous.

    [5:47] The people of the Gospel shall rule in accordance with GOD’s revelations therein. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD’s revelations are the wicked.

    [2:62 & 5:69] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

    [3:113-114]. They are not all the same; among the followers of the scripture, there are those who are righteous. They recite GOD’s revelations through the night, and they fall prostrate.

    They believe in GOD and the Last Day, they advocate righteousness and forbid evil, and they hasten to do righteous works. These are the righteous.

    [3:199] Surely, some followers of the previous scriptures do believe in GOD, and in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed to them. They reverence GOD, and they never trade away GOD’s revelations for a cheap price. These will receive their recompense from their Lord. GOD is the most efficient in reckoning.

  33. mahmood says:

    Oooh boy, we have a new bigot in the house! We haven’t had one of those for a long time!

    However, this one is just a troll and I wouldn’t bother with him at all bahraini4eva, it would be a waste of time. He’s probably more interested in broadcasting his site than he is the word of God.

    Probably the best thing to do with trolls is to ignore them… or just shout HANASH and watch him JUMP!

    What a blithering idiot.

    Here’s a cure for all your troubles Hajeji: go play in traffic.

  34. mahmood says:

    hajeji: I support those who will not be terrorised by the occupiers who originate from the sons of pigs and monkeys, yes, the yahood and your friends.

    And you bigoted twerp, you say that and you live in the UK! Why aren’t you back in the mountains of Yemen living under a rock where you belong? I was prepared to ignore your whole verbal diarrhea until I checked where you are actually connecting from.

    Had you connected from Yemen and had these views, I would have put it down to just an ignorant rant, but your being in the UK just changes the whole situation. But I stand by my first assessment and I shall treat you like a troll.

  35. Steve The American says:

    As you might expect, I have many strong views on the original post and subsequent posts but then it’s late and I’m sleepy and you all know what I think anyway. Could somebody write up my response for me? I’ll proofread it in the morning and sign off on it.

    Thanks in advance,

    Steve

  36. tooners says:

    whew… this is good stuff!! 😉

  37. Citizen Quasar says:

    “You obviously don’t want to understand anything about us or Islam for that matter; and asinine comments like the one above more than demonstrate that.”

    Mahmood: As you know, I often lose my temper and “fire from the hip” so to speak. I am certainly grateful for your blog and I think that you are a good person.

    No, I DO NOT like your religion. I also DO NOT LIKE CHRISTIANITY, JUDAISM, or the rest of the PANTHEON. However, I support you as a citizen of the planet to invest your most cherished values into any one of the widely available “imaginary friends” that you select to hyper-dimensionally tell you right from wrong.

    ANOTHER apology is in order here. You DID give the whole article the stink-fart GIF. The text re-enforced this. So, I was wrong to go off like that. You caught me at a bad moment…and I have MANY of these.

    I am tempted, at this time, to say that we have laws in this country which prohibit this type of display. These are called anti-terrorism laws. MAKING A TERRORIST THREAT is against the law and if adults put on such a display, their children would have been seized by the state and sent to “Juvy” where they would have been prevented from growing up as terrorists.

    I can go on (and certainly will) but, I shall pause to comment on Dubai. Mahmood, you just got back from a conference in Dubai. I wished you well. Yet, to begin with, Dubai was one of only three governments that recognized the Taliban. You know…the Taliban(Muslims?).

    And my president (Bush), who is a globalist, (just last week) gave a military production contrat to the same Dubai government/company that the American people demanded not to have control of our ports on the east coast. And FURTHERMORE this same government of Dubai is said (by Michael Savage) to have give $50,000,000 to the terroristic government of Hamas the week before. I am not a “Bushite.”

    Obviously there are people manipulating things from behind the scenes to start WARS, profit from these, and hand us our lot when the last gladiator is standing.

    In the meantime, I apologize once again for losing my temper in a mis-directed manner at those who would like to see ME DEAD. Perhaps you will eventually tell me what this particular branch of Islam finds in the Koran that drives them to threaten my life, community, and nation.

    I await your response.

    Thank you.

    —Dan

  38. Citizen Quasar says:

    Mahmood: “Let me explain the context of this idiom: “if all your thoughts are crap, don’t expose yourself by opening you mouth and spewing that crap out.””

    A better quote is from Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States of America, during the Civil War, 1860-1865. It goes like this: “It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth abnd remove all doubt.”

    Now while your backward little nation tries to catch up with the 21st century and “mighty” Saudi Arabia, with American oil money, finances “Wahabi-ism(?)” to start a thermonuclear war with the peaceful people of Oklahoma, you MIGHT find it in your best interest to explain the verses in the Koran that give them justification for their ideas.

    After all, isn’t that what YOU want: better understanding of Islam?

    I WILL NOT SUBMIT.

    —Dan

  39. Anonymous says:

    “You see, they stayed for less than ONE HOUR, then they experienced how hospitable we, the people of honour are….lol.”

    Do all “people of honour” chew that much qat?

  40. Ibn says:

    Steve said:

    Could somebody write up my response for me? I’ll proofread it in the morning and sign off on it.

    Thanks in advance,

    teehee! 🙂 Ohh I am BESIDE myself! I thought the day would never come! Ahh…*rolls up sleeves*:

    What Steve would probably say:
    All Muslims who do not condemn Sep11th, are reponsible for Sep11th. Thus, all Muslims are responsible for murdering 3000+ people. All of them. Cooks, maids, doctors, grandmas, just because they subscribe to a certain belief system of the Supreme being. When we usually say someone is responsible for murder, we put them on death row, and eventually kill them. But in this case, I think we should trade with goods with people who are responsible for murdering 3000+ people, for the simple crime of them being Muslim, and having forgotten to write letters to the editor condemning Sep11th

    ..wait I minute..something isnt right here…oh thats right…this isnt something Steve would say….HE HAS ACTUALLY SAID THIS BEFORE!…Twice! LOL

    haahahah. Geez. Too easy. TOO easy. 🙂

    ——————————————-

    Mahmood,

    It is obvious that as Arab reformers, our cause is often hijacked by nut-cases on the American far-right, and I am talking specifically of Citizen Auschwitz…err….Quasar. I dont know if its just me, but he seems content on lobing nukes wherever he sees a problem, irregardless of the consequences.

    I really hope he never gets into arguments with his mom…

    -Ibn

  41. Ibn says:

    Quasar said:

    No, I DO NOT like your religion.

    Interesting. He vehemently hates Islam, obviously because of the bloodshed we see on TV in its name… … and yet he is every too happy to NUKE millions upon millions of people… hmmmm…(I wonder what religion THAT is)

    Know what? I am athiest. But if ever someone would make a good pacified dhimmi, I would vouch for Citizen Quasar. 🙂

    -Ibn

  42. Chanad says:

    Quasar said:

    Now while your backward little nation tries to catch up with the 21st century […]

    and

    I say nuke them [10 year old kids] till they glow. Blow’em all to hell and DO NOT show the pictures of the dead little bastards on TV.

    classic stuff. pure genius.

  43. Al-hajeji says:

    what is your point if i am connecting from the UK? The British occupied my fatherland for 130 years, taking the resources and splitting up the country which in turn created a few civil wars. So maybe its payback time.
    I travel from yemen to UK and to yemen from UK.
    In the UK, the majority of yemenis work, pay their taxes and hardly any of us break the law. We are allowed to make Dawa, we are ambassadors for Islam. Al-Hamdullah many of the shabab are always travelling back to yemen and invest there. Most of the english people respect us because we are always showing manners and respect but for scum like the BNP members, lol, lets say we had our share of fun. So how does that make me a “And you bigoted twerp”? The only arab twerps around here are the ones that deport their police force back to yemen (after gulf war 1), and then 12 years later these same people (bahrain gov’t) invite all the baathist families. LOL.
    Mahmood, mark my words, in three years time me and my brothers are going to the emirates, and funny enough we feel like visiting bahrain…So I will visit you inshah’Allah and then we will see if you will call me a bigot in front of my face. Don’t worry this is not a threat of any sort!By Allah, Never will I do you harm, you are entitled to your opinions. I just like to meet you in one of your bloggers conferences, and maybe we have gahwa and sheesha. Kheir Inshah’Allah.

  44. Steve The American says:

    Steve: “I think I’ll have a burger and a coke for lunch.”

    Ibn: “What Steve really means is NUKE ALL THE ARABS! You see, you see, Steve is asserting American cultural dominance by choosing burgers and cokes, the quintessential American meal, for his lunch and dismissing all Arab equivalents as unworthy. Logically, he is annihilating all Arab foods from consideration and therefore Arab culture itself. It’s just one logical step further to realize that what Steve is really saying is annihilate the Arabs themselves because they don’t fit into his McDonaldized universe. The coke is a metaphor for American imperialism, which fits Steve’s racist burger-centric world view. I want Steve to answer one question: Why not a shawarma you racist bigot American, Steve? Why not a falafel? You can’t deny I have uncovered your real position with pure, pure geometric logic, can you? CAN YOU!? ANSWER THE QUESTION!!!”

    Ibn, I think you need a girlfriend and a bottle of Ritalin. A big bottle.

    Steve

  45. Steve The American says:

    Al-hajeji: “Most of the english people respect us because we are always showing manners and respect but for scum like the BNP members…”

    The British National Party is a party of racist goons who oppose foreign influence in England. I could see where such intolerance would be offensive. But really, bad as they are, aren’t they, a minority party in England, holding the same positions held by the majority of people in Yemen, with the only difference being the ethnic groups to which they object?

    Curious,

    Steve

  46. Steve The American says:

    Shipwack: “I find the pictures disturbing, but no more so than when I see the right-wing zealots in the US pushing their children to do similar things. The children are, as usual, innocent pawns or props. Stupidity knows knows nothing about national borders.”

    Nor political parties. Shipwack, need I show you the photos I took of left-wing zealots having their kids wave Che Guevara banners at the last “peace” march in DC?

    Shipwack: “The US is reaping the whirlwind of what it sowed, and too many innocents on both sides will pay the price. I hope when saner heads win back our House and Senate in ‘06 sanity will start prevailing, though it’ll be a long hard road back to integrity and morality.”

    Pure nonsense. The Muslim radicals, and Muslim world in general, oppose the US because it is not Muslim. As Zacarias Moussaoui, Sep 11 plotter, testified, the Muslims make war on the US because it is a non-Muslim superpower when it is the Muslims who should be the superpower.

    I profoundly disagree that the Democrats are saner or more sober on foreign policy. They have done no serious thinking on it. Their policy is to oppose whatever Bush is promoting. Their main goal to set a date for unilateral withdrawal from Iraq is a recipe for a bloodbath. That is an insane, immoral, and irresponsible idea which would store up trouble for the future. The worst thing that could happen to ordinary Iraqis is a Democrat for US president in 2008.

    Steve

  47. Anonymous says:

    …..u complete FAGGOT. Zacarias Moussaoui is a terrorist not a muslim. y cant u understand that. he does not represent muslims, y are u soooooo godamn narrow minded. it is because of people like u that non-radical and peacefull muslims are insulted and abused. u truly are an anti muslim, with pure hate for the muslim religion and its people, ur just as bad as the terrorists and deserve the same fate as them…….

  48. mahmood says:

    dickhead said: So I will visit you inshah’Allah and then we will see if you will call me a bigot in front of my face.

    Ooooh I’m SO scared…

    Now, as I said earlier, be a good boy and go play in the M25 traffic. Once you grow a pair of balls, or at least have some intellect, you’re more than welcome to come back.

    Scat!

  49. Steve The American says:

    Anonymous: “Zacarias Moussaoui is a terrorist not a muslim. y cant u understand that. he does not represent muslims, y are u soooooo godamn narrow minded.”

    The reason that I don’t understand that Moussaoui is a terrorist rather than a Muslim is that those categories are hardly mutually exclusive. Moussaoui is both a Muslim and a terrorist. His professes his faith through terror, as many Muslims do. When Moussaoui plots to mass murder Americans, he is simply implementing the Verse of the Sword, laying every ambush for we infidels, and Mohammed’s last words, vowing to fight every man until all the world is for Allah.

    Anonymous: “it is because of people like u that non-radical and peacefull muslims are insulted and abused. u truly are an anti muslim, with pure hate for the muslim religion and its people, ur just as bad as the terrorists and deserve the same fate as them…….

    Well, who said we couldn’t agree on something? It’s true that I have a poor opinion of Islam, which I find a depraved and wicked faith. However, those “non-radical and peaceful Muslims” can change my opinion by stopping the skyjackings, bombings, and beheadings which poison my view of Islam. They could improve my opinion simply by taking a public stand against terror, as if shedding blood were worse than drawing cartoons of Mohammed, for example.

    As for being as bad as the terrorists, I have thoroughly checked my calendar and diary for the last few years and I can say, with some confidence, that I have not harmed a hair on a Muslim’s head nor drawn so much as a drop of Muslim blood. I have not skyjacked any Saudia jumbo jets and crashed them into Riyadh skyscrapers. I have not planted any high explosives in the many mosques here in Washington. Nor have I sawed any Muslim’s head off and videotaped it for mass distribution. I have checked all my videotapes and there is not a snuff video among them. I have not attended any church services where the priests preached that Muslims were pigs and monkeys whom it was OK to hurt, steal their stuff, and rape their women.

    That said, that places me, along with the rest of the civilized world, on a higher moral plane than the terrorists and the Muslim world which supports them. It also places me above whiny little Muslims like you who, incredibly, profess that criticism of terrorism is equivalent to terror itself.

    My recommendation is that if you want respect, behave respectably. Respect is bestowed on those who earn it, not those who demand it without merit. When I read the transcript of United Flight 93 and find it full of Muslim prayers by the skyjackers as they cut the throats of pilots and stewardesses, I don’t find it persuasive to hear they weren’t Muslims. The Muslim murder pilots called out “Allah Akbar” nine times in their final dive. These group suicides/mass murders were expressions of Islam.

    When Muslims build universities and hospitals where ever they go instead of terror cells, they will earn my respect. When they practice tolerance and good will instead of murderous bigotry, they will earn my respect. When the imams call for peace instead of war, they will earn my respect. As it is now, most Muslims show a hostile face to the world and are rightfully criticized for it.

    Quite frankly, you have a lot of work ahead of you before Islam deserves respect. Get to it.

    Steve

  50. Lujayn says:

    Steve, you cant possibly paint every Muslim with the same brush, because 19 terrorists, or maybe 3,000 terrorists, or even 30,000 terrorists, are waging a war against the “infidels”. The Muslims in the Arab world number some 300 million, and most of them would die before they lifted a hand against someone. Nobody hears about them, or cares that the majority of Muslims are peace-loving people who live their lives just like everyone else. They want the same things that everyone else wants – stability, peace, the nice things in life, etc. By the same token, I wouldnt denounce all US citizens as war-mongers just because their government wages illegal wars anywhere it deems profitable. Neither do I believe that all Jews are Zionists who want to throw the Palestinians in the sea. Thats too simplistic and easy. I’m an Arab, and I have yet to meet someone who would harm somebody for their faith, let alone commit an act of terrorism, in all 37 years of my life living in the Arab world. And I must have met thousands and thousands of people in all circumstances and environments.

    Yes, the non-violent majority appears quiet, but then again, you dont read or understand Arabic. There are articles daily in the papers, by people denouncing violence and calling for discourse. The vast majority of us talk amongst each other daily about how we’re being taken for a ride by all the extremists on all sides. The fact that people like Mahmood or many of the other people commenting here exist, is proof that plenty of regular people dont subscribe to the Bin Laden school of thought/or lack thereof.

    You defend yourself against “Anonymous'” by saying that you, unlike the terrorists, have not harmed a single Muslim, or blew anyone up, or cut anyone’s head off, etc. Well, neither have I, and neither have any of the people I know or are related to. Yet you refuse to see that.

  51. Ibn says:

    Woohoo! He’s lost it! har har har! 🙂

    Why not a shawarma you racist bigot American, Steve? Why not a falafel? You can’t deny I have uncovered your real position with pure, pure geometric logic, can you? CAN YOU!? ANSWER THE QUESTION!!!”

    Well, naww..not really. I do not think Steve is a burger-king imperialist, or a racist bigot. Naw….far from it. I just think (and have subsequently showed), how he is a bigot of sorts, albeit not a racial one. Another class – a religious bigot perhaps. Religious bigots are funny. When you corner them, they begin to flare up, and eventually explode. Steve hasn’t done…oh wait, nevermind. 🙂

    Ladies and gentlemen! I asked Stevo to do me one favour – answer a-question – about holding “all Muslims who do not condemn Sep11th responsible for Sep11th”…I waited and waited…and finally, Steve answered…by BLOWING UP! woohoo! You ask a man to answer a question….and he calls himself a racist…..oookkkkaayyyy…..heheh. Temper Temper! 🙂

    My recommendation to Steve here would be to take a chill pill…. and not just any chill pill….a sepository chill pill.

    When they practice tolerance and good will instead of murderous bigotry, they will earn my respect. When the imams call for peace instead of war, they will earn my respect. As it is now, most Muslims show a hostile face to the world and are rightfully criticized for it.

    Who’s “they”? “The Muslims”? , “The Imams”?

    Quite frankly, you have a lot of work ahead of you before Islam deserves respect. Get to it.

    Interesting. I think this is one example of taking the noble American motto “E pluribus unum” (From the many, one), and turning it upside down. (E unum, pluribus), For Steve’s case: From the one (muslim), many judgements!. LOL!

    Here is what it comes down to folks:

    Steve wants people to prove a negative.

    * Prove that you as a Muslim, are NOT responsible for Sep11th, or else you ARE responsible. (And we all know what happens to people who are responsible for murder…inquisition or no inquisition…)
    * Prove that you as a Muslim do NOT condone Sep11th..or else you do!

    Steve’s stances are blatantly inquisitorial. Steve has taken Western Civilization back 500 years. And then he has the audacity to ask modern Muslims to answer to him?? Looks like Osama bin Laden is winning after all! Another 300 years of backwardness, and we’ll have others going on no less than a crusade against “all those who do not condemn Sep11th”, or “Muslims” for short. Brilliant! Just as Osama wanted!

    All hail – Steve the Inquisitor! 🙂

    Would Steve the Inquisitor be kind enough to answer for this court of justice the four questions outlined for him before? hmm?

    Nevermind! Actually – I have a better question for him: And just one:

    See my next post! 🙂

    -Ibn

  52. shipwack says:

    Steve:
    “Nor political parties. Shipwack, need I show you the photos I took of left-wing zealots having their kids wave Che Guevara banners at the last “peace” march in DC?”

    ::shrug:: You say that as if it were a bad thing… but that’s a whole ‘nother discussion and forum. You could show me those pics, and I’ll show my KKK and other right wing photos, or we can just save our host’s bandwidth and just google for that stuff.

    Steve:
    “I profoundly disagree that the Democrats are saner or more sober on foreign policy. They have done no serious thinking on it. Their policy is to oppose whatever Bush is promoting. Their main goal to set a date for unilateral withdrawal from Iraq is a recipe for a bloodbath. That is an insane, immoral, and irresponsible idea which would store up trouble for the future. The worst thing that could happen to ordinary Iraqis is a Democrat for US president in 2008.”

    It has been proven that the Dems are more sane in foreign policy; when the members of PNAC (a neo-conservative think tank, not enough room to explain; google it) urged Clinton 10 years ago to attack Iraq, he told them to pack sand. Now most of the members of that group are in the Bush cabinet and other high positions.

    There has been plenty of serious thinking amoung Dems on what to do. As you should know, the current proposal being floated around is a phased withdrawal (not “unilateral) to the peripherary, close enough to support the Iraqi government troops if needed and requested.

    Unfortunately, doing this will probably cause more bloodshed. But, due to the -gross- incompetance* of the Bush adminstration (Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz in particular), -anything- we do now will cause more bloodshed, including doing nothing. This is why American leaders for the past 230 years have advocated against “foreign entanglements”. America is now so despised in the region that anything and anyone they advocate will be rejected. I am truly sorry to have been a part of this unjust, poorly planned agression against another country. We have expended money, men, and moral capital for nothing. Thousands on both sides have died for no damn good reason. The best we can do right now is to let the Iraquis sort out their own destiny, as is their right as a sovreign nation, and giving financial aid to repair the damge we’ve done. I advocate this even if that means a government being set up that is hostile to the US.

    *There is a school of thought that the current situation in Iraq is exactly what several Whitehouse factions wanted: the PNAC chicken hawks will get a base to “stabilise the country”; industrial tycoons get money for “rebuilding Iraq”, Big Oil gets tp slaps down a regime that was hostile to American Petroleum interests. The only group that is disappointed is the “American Taliban” christian evangelicals, who were -sure- that a war in Iraq would call down Jesus and the start of the Rapture…

  53. Ibn says:

    STEVE – THE – INQUISITOR
    COURT SESSION NUMBER 1

    “All rise”,
    Steve-The-Inquisitor walks in.

    “Court is now in session!”

    Government Prosecutor: “Your excellency Steve, master inquisitor, I bring forth to you… and shackled piece of filth!…”

    Steve-The-Inquisitor: “On what basis has this person brought before me been arrested and shackled thus?”

    GP: “…Inquisotor Steve, we observed this individual going repeatedly into mosques, and sporting a poious beard, leading us to suspect that he is a Muslim. Since we did not know if he had condemned Sep11th, we took pre-emptive action and arrested him! ..”

    Steve-The-Inquisitor: “…Go on…”

    GP: “Inquisitor Steve, this Muslim was found lingering in and around the Capitol building, mainly between the hours of 9-5pm, Monday-Fridays… a total of 40 hours a week in our capitol city! Furthermore, he has claimed that he is in fact….a MUSLIM!. I would also like to remind this court, that the hijakers from 9-11, who destroyed our twin towers, and the one fifth of our military nerve center…were also…MUSLIMS!”..

    Steve-The-Inquisitor: “..This is true, they were all Muslims..”

    GP: “…Inquisotor Steve, the eddict Stevo-Rules-100, you have laid down, says that ANY Muslim who does not condemn Sep11th, is also responsible for September 11th. Is this correct?”

    Steve-The-Inquisitor: “Yes, I have indeed said this many times before…”

    GP: “Furthermore grand Inquisitor, I have looked at our government database for evidence that this person is indeed innocent…by trying to find instances of him writing to newspapers, that he condemns Sep11th…or even organized a march…where he states he condemns Sep11th…but have found no such evidence! In effect…..I have tried to find evidence that this person is innocent….but I cannot find any! There is no evidence of his innocence!”

    Steve-The-Inquisitor: “..this is disturbing…”

    GP: “Thus, in consistency and cititation of the eddict Steve-Rules-100 of the order-of-the-Steve, I hereby move that this Muslim is found GUILTY, for being responsible for the MURDER of 3000+ fellow Americans, in our OWN cities!.. ”

    Muslim Defendant: “I am innocent! I have not commited murder! Judge me by my actions, not my faith!”

    GP: “How does the Master Inquisotor charge this individual!? Guilty, or not guilty?”

    …?

    Steve-The-Inquisitor: “________________”

    ——————————————————–

    I give Steve the last word. How indeed does Inquisitor Steve rule?

    -Ibn

  54. Steve The American says:

    Steve: “Shipwack, need I show you the photos I took of left-wing zealots having their kids wave Che Guevara banners at the last “peace” march in DC?”

    Shipwack: “::shrug:: You say that as if it were a bad thing…

    Uh, yeah, teaching your kids that Communism is better than democracy and that the way to change governments is to wage a violent revolution against the government strikes me as a bad thing. Need I point out that Communism has killed 50 million people in the last century, most of them citizens killed by their own governments? I might also point out that Che is a very unsavory character who ran Fidel’s firing squads. He’s not exactly a role model for kids or thinking humans.

    Shipwack: “It has been proven that the Dems are more sane in foreign policy; … the current proposal being floated around is a phased withdrawal (not “unilateral) to the peripherary, close enough to support the Iraqi government troops if needed and requested.”

    Shipwack, I hate to burst your bubble, but withdrawing to allow the Iraqis to take over is the current plan.

    Shipwack: “Unfortunately, doing this will probably cause more bloodshed. But, due to the -gross- incompetance* of the Bush adminstration (Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz in particular), -anything- we do now will cause more bloodshed, including doing nothing.”

    If we hadn’t invaded Iraq, there would have been more bloodshed, not only within Iraq but outside Iraq as well. Iraq was training 2000 foreign terrorists each year toward the end, 8000 total, according to captured Iraq documents. The Saddam fedayeen was being tasked in a “Blessed July” campaign to strike targets in Europe. And of course, the covert WMD labs were standing by to resume operation.

    Shipwack: “This is why American leaders for the past 230 years have advocated against “foreign entanglements”.”

    When President Washington warned of foreign entanglements it was a different world than today. American hasn’t believed in avoiding foreign entanglements since the Spanish-American War. The productivity of our economy makes it impossible to avoid foreign entanglements.

    Shipwack: “America is now so despised in the region that anything and anyone they advocate will be rejected.”

    It’s not so despised that people don’t want to stop coming here. And really, a large part of the anti-Americanism is religious bigotry aggravated by propaganda.

    Shipwack: “I am truly sorry to have been a part of this unjust, poorly planned agression against another country. We have expended money, men, and moral capital for nothing. Thousands on both sides have died for no damn good reason.”

    Shipwack, you have your facts mixed up. If you’ll recall, this war was begun by Saddam invading Kuwait. He never abided by the peace terms set down by the UN. He tried to assassinate Bush senior in Kuwait. He fired some 600 surface to air missiles at our jets patrolling the no fly zone. He declared bounties on our military people. That’s aggressive, don’t you agree?

    If you think nothing was accomplished in this war, why don’t you ask the Kurds if they’d like the Saddam regime back? I recommend you start in Halabja. Then you can ask the Shiites if they want Saddam back. You can begin at any of the mass graves in the south where Shiites are trying to find their family. I’d say that just stopping the Saddamites from throwing people in the plastic shredder for sport is accomplishing something. Why do you disagree?

    Shipwack: “There is a school of thought that the current situation in Iraq is exactly what several Whitehouse factions wanted: the PNAC chicken hawks will get a base to “stabilise the country”; industrial tycoons get money for “rebuilding Iraq”, Big Oil gets tp slaps down a regime that was hostile to American Petroleum interests.”

    I wouldn’t call conspiracy theories a school of thought but rather a lunatic asylum of thought.

    Steve

  55. Al-hajeji says:

    mahmood, i am offended wallah, I come with a peace offering and you insult me? What I meant was that, on the internet, it is easy to insult and offend and you do not know what is the other persons emotions because you cannot see him/her. But face to face, I believe people understand each other more and are less likely to say something really offensive, I guess it is the nature of human beings wa Allahu’Alam.
    mahmood: if you think that I had offended you in anyway, then samahnee, forgive me. This is your website, no one should insult you. On my blog I post things that I see worthy and I wouldn’t like anyone else insulting my opinions so I know the feeling man.
    I like visiting your website, and I would like to visit it if you don’t mind, it is interesting and open minded. Eventhough our political views are different, we can still get along.
    That offer is still up (the gahwa & sheesha) if you want 😉

    wa’tahyatee ya ibn al-halal!!
    Take care bro.

  56. Steve The American says:

    Lujayn: “Steve, you cant possibly paint every Muslim with the same brush, because 19 terrorists, or maybe 3,000 terrorists, or even 30,000 terrorists, are waging a war against the “infidels”.

    When Muslims subscribe, without objection, to a faith that explicitly directs them to make war on non-Muslims, I find that worthy of criticism. Amend those belligerent passages in the Koran and Islamic doctrine to command toleration for non-Muslims and I will have change my opinion of Islam and Muslims accordingly. I see little effort to change this hostile doctrine which is at the root of all this evil.

    Likewise, when Muslims around the world dance in the streets and celebrate the carnage of Sep 11, that inclines me to pull out that wide brush and paint the Muslim world as depraved. What other religion would greet such wickedness with a smile?

    Lujayn: “The Muslims in the Arab world number some 300 million, and most of them would die before they lifted a hand against someone. Nobody hears about them, or cares that the majority of Muslims are peace-loving people who live their lives just like everyone else. They want the same things that everyone else wants – stability, peace, the nice things in life, etc.”

    Many of those Muslims who would not lift a hand against non-Muslims are happy to support those who would with cash donations and other support. If the Muslims in the Arab world were peace-loving people who rejected Islamic terror, the Muslim terrorists would not be able to survive a day in their midst. They would be in prison faster than an infidel eating a Snickers in Riyadh during Ramadan.

    When Timothy McVeigh bombed the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, everyone who saw him was eager to testify against him. He was easy to catch because of it. When similar bombings occur in Muslim countries, everybody clams up, the local authorities refuse to cooperate as other countries routinely do, and the state-run media attempts to shift the blame to other parties. These are not the actions of peace-loving people, but accomplices.

    When researchers travel to a couple dozen mosques in a dozen major American cities and find the same anti-infidel hate literature at each one, without exception, that does tend to lead one to believe that Muslims don’t want peace with non-Muslims. When is the last time you read of a church or synagogue featuring anti-Muslim propaganda that claimed that you should lie to Muslims, steal their stuff, hurt them, and so on? Never. But it is standard fare in mosques.

    Lujayn: “By the same token, I wouldnt denounce all US citizens as war-mongers just because their government wages illegal wars anywhere it deems profitable.”

    More political cant. Afghanistan was a war of self defense. If you launch an attack that kills thousands of American civilians, you deserve a beating. Iraq provided more than its share of provocation. The attempted assassination of Bush Sr. was casus belli enough. We ignored hundreds of provocations from Iraq.

    It’s also pretty foolish to claim that the US is profiting from Afghanistan or Iraq. They are both cash sinkholes, not cash cows as you insanely believe.

    Lujayn: “Neither do I believe that all Jews are Zionists who want to throw the Palestinians in the sea. Thats too simplistic and easy. I’m an Arab, and I have yet to meet someone who would harm somebody for their faith, let alone commit an act of terrorism, in all 37 years of my life living in the Arab world. And I must have met thousands and thousands of people in all circumstances and environments.”

    Yet it is an absolute fact that most of the terrorists are young Arab men who are killing for Islam. Those aren’t Presbyterians from Minnesota sawing those heads off on the snuff videos.

    Lujayn: “Yes, the non-violent majority appears quiet, but then again, you dont read or understand Arabic. There are articles daily in the papers, by people denouncing violence and calling for discourse. The vast majority of us talk amongst each other daily about how we’re being taken for a ride by all the extremists on all sides.”

    While I don’t read Arabic, I do read English as well as millions of Muslims who have little to say against Islamic terrorism. What little they do say tends to be mealy mouth evasions. English-speaking Muslims don’t seem to have any problem summoning great numbers to protest cartoons but seem curiously unenthusiastic when it comes to protesting Islamic head-cutting. When a local Muslim lawyer here in DC tried to organize an anti-terror demonstration, the local Muslim clerics did not support it. He said they supported the terrorists goals of a Sharia state if not their methods.

    If you are going to convince the non-Muslim world that there is a sizeable number of Muslims who reject terrorism, you need to actually make the case in public rather than whispering among yourselves. I’m sure that if Al Qaeda has no trouble making its communiques known in English, anti-jihad Muslims can do the same.

    Lujayn: “You defend yourself against “Anonymous’” by saying that you, unlike the terrorists, have not harmed a single Muslim, or blew anyone up, or cut anyone’s head off, etc. Well, neither have I, and neither have any of the people I know or are related to. Yet you refuse to see that.”

    And if I had any knowledge of a crime of violence against somebody, I’d be on the phone to the police in a heartbeat. The “peaceful” Muslims have a hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil policy when it comes to the evil-doers in their midst. Even when the violence is plotted and organized in a mosque and witnessed by many, nobody seems to speak up to the authorities or media.

    When I see the Muslim world actively rejecting terror and hunting down terrorists, I’ll be inclined to believe they’re serious at long last about rooting out Islamic terror.

    Steve

  57. Ibn says:

    Lujayn, I would like to tell you, that when faced with an individual whose stances are loony, the strategy to take is flipping that same insanity back at them.

    Example:

    Steve is saying in so many words, that whenever he looks towards the direction of Islam, he sees violence, non-condemning Muslims, “hate filled literature”, etc. Nevermind that we have lived in the ME for so long and do not see this, but it doesnt matter. The inquisitor has spoken.

    Either way, Steve wants to generalize from the many unto one. NO PROBLEM. Lets turn it around on him.

    Steve’s Logic used on Israel:

    DEAR STEVE! 🙂 We would like to live in peace with Israelis, but everywhere we turn, we see an Israeli in a tank, in Arab territory, building illegal homes, and not letting in past Palestinian refugees back in, who were kicked out by the Irgun and Palmach. Israel’s “basic laws” are just downright racist, touting the principle that Israel must forever maintain its Jewish majority – how this is to be done is not mentioned, but no matter – we only welcome people of a certain ethnic/religious background. Oh, and Israel is better than the rest of the middle east.

    But, thats all we see! We dont see anymore! We dont see any nice Israelis! Only ones who support two-states solutions, and not ones who want to return palestinian refugees back! Oh and Zionists are Israelis are Jews, and since the Zionists are responsible for all this, every Jew is reposinsible for condemning this, lest he also be held accountable. And since we do not see Israelis marching in the streets condemning Zionism, we must act in self-defence and protect ourselves. Thus, DOWN WITH THE JEWS!

    Woohoo! Steve’s logic has irony in that it fits the Hamas charter. Way to go dumbass! LOL

    -Ibn

  58. Will says:

    Steve said; When Muslims subscribe, without objection, to a faith that explicitly directs them to make war on non-Muslims, I find that worthy of criticism.

    I would argue that all foundational religious texts say so many different things in such an ambiguous fashion that if you have 100 readers you have 100 interpretations. They pool together by shade and flavour. It is not the religion as much as it is the particular people. Yes I agree that Islam produces alot of terrorists or at least there is some professed connection from the terrorists themselves but these ppl are usually disenfranchised and misled. Possibly not much different than the children in the picture.

    All entrenched thinking is worthy of criticisim. The Catholic church only managed to appologise for Galileo in 1992. The Muslim calendar is based on the moon.

    If 10% of the those claiming to be Muslim were even moderately in favor of terrorism and willing to support it materially in some way, that is something like one hundred million ppl. 100,000,000!!! Dont you think that we would be in worse shape than we are now?

  59. billT says:

    Steve:”When Muslims build universities and hospitals where ever they go instead of terror cells, they will earn my respect. When they practice tolerance and good will instead of murderous bigotry, they will earn my respect. When the imams call for peace instead of war, they will earn my respect. As it is now, most Muslims show a hostile face to the world and are rightfully criticized for it.”

    Talk about respect. Steve you should read Stephen Kinzer’s new book “Overthrow: America’s Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq.” He makes a very valid argument that in every one of the 14 regime changes America participated in within the last 110 years American business interests were being defended first and foremost. American respect is something many in the world are scared of wondering what its going to cost them.

  60. Citizen Quasar says:

    Ibn: “Quasar said: “No, I DO NOT like your religion.”

    Interesting. He vehemently hates Islam, obviously because of the bloodshed we see on TV in its name… … and yet he is every too happy to NUKE millions upon millions of people… hmmmm…(I wonder what religion THAT is)

    Know what? I am athiest. But if ever someone would make a good pacified dhimmi, I would vouch for Citizen Quasar.
    -Ibn ”

    ibn: It is the MUSLIMS in IRAN that want to start a nuclear war. Perhaps YOU will explain which verses in the Koran give them inspiration and validation for such. Whatever a dhimmi is, I will use one to wipe my ass with if I ever come across one. Also, believe in something that you can remember how to spell.

    Chanad: “Quasar said: “Now while your backward little nation tries to catch up with the 21st century […]

    and

    I say nuke them [10 year old kids] till they glow. Blow’em all to hell and DO NOT show the pictures of the dead little bastards on TV.”

    classic stuff. pure genius. ”

    Chanad: Yes. These were just cheap shots from me. I wish I had been better composed when I wrote them.

  61. mahmood says:

    hajeji, you can take your sheesha and gahwa and stick them where the son doesn’t shine. You can go find yourself another friend because I never will consider you one.

    First you threaten my life and then invite me for a drink? You’re out of your mind, on several levels. You most certainly a good candidate for therapy.

    As you have threatened my life, you are no longer welcome here. But you’re more than welcome to continue to play in traffic. The world certainly won’t miss you or your ilk.

  62. mahmood says:

    Citizen Quazar: Yes. These were just cheap shots from me. I wish I had been better composed when I wrote them.

    You have a severe problem with alcohol and I suggest you get yourself into a rehabilitation program. Every time you get drunk you come and dump on us with your vitriol. I’m fed up of it, and I’m sure quite the majority here are too.

    Therefore, you are no longer welcome here. You are more than welcome to start your own ranting space, but you’re not going to do it here.

  63. Lujayn says:

    Steve, following up on billT’s post, one of the reasons you don’t hear much from the moderate majority is that it been cowed by political leadership very much supported by the US. From Morocco to Jordan, and across the Arab world, authoritarian regimes come down very strongly on any free thought, any hint of opposition, any independent opinion, and most of these regimes are buttressed by US political and financial clout.

    We are only allowed to march and protest in the streets, when it serves our political leaderships’ alliance of the day, or whatever it is that they’re trying to make a point about. Given these circumstances, I think the moderate majority in the Arab world shows a lot more integrity than the vast majority in the supposedly free world that sits by and does nothing when its own leadership goes marauding around the world, defending causes so noble as the supposed assassination attempt against Bush Sr. (we all know how easy it was for the US to fabricate reasons for going to war, including WMD and anticipated attacks by a dangerous Saddam, who was so “powerful”, he was caught in a hole) and a revengeful attack against a prodigal son of the US in Afghanistan.

    You can keep throwing the argument that nobody wants Saddam back, but he’s always been around, and nobody thought twice of removing him when he was gassing Kurds and massacring Shiites. In fact, Iraq was using mustard gas on the Iranians at around the time of Rumsfeld’s second visit to Iraq to meet Saddam back in 1984, yet he didn’t run back home and call on his administration to remove Saddam from power. Not only did the US not do anything, they rewarded Saddam for his help in fighting the Iranians by allowing him to purchase a massive arsenal of weapons from US firms. Please spare us the Kurd and Shiite sob stories. We’ve always thought they were horrible acts of terror, yet there was no forthcoming support from the land of the free and the home of the brave.

    As for the cash cow that I “insanely” believe the US war on Iraq is, most of the costs for reconstruction and the deployment of US forces, is being paid for by Iraq. In fact, of the $56 billion earmarked for reconstruction in Iraq (incidentally, mostly Japanese, European and Gulf Arab pledges), very little has been actually spent, with the greater part of it going to security for American companies, not reconstruction. Its laughable if you really believe the likes of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld went to war driven by their desire to rid the world of former allies/current despots in the Arab world (although God did instruct Bush to go to war, so it wasn’t all about money).

    So altogether, I think that given the circumstances, the fact that we’re moderates is quite an achievement. Faced with double standards and vested interests all around, we seem to have held our ground (albeit, hushed ground) quite well.

    However, I do enjoy your input and find it quite challenging.

  64. Ibn says:

    Citizen Quazar said:

    ibn: It is the MUSLIMS in IRAN that want to start a nuclear war.

    I see. You must be Iranian.

    -Ibn

  65. Lujayn says:

    And Mahmoud, thanks for introducing me to your blog! I am thoroughly enjoying the discussions, having gotten tired of reading all about the shortcomings of Dubai’s traffic police, labor department officials and post office employees on UAE blogs.

    Besides, your gardening adventures have been an inspiration. I bought me a lovely hibiscus (actually three) and I’m closely watching them to see if they’ll sprout beautiful flowers like yours. One is just about to open, so my fingers are crossed.

  66. Steve The American says:

    Steve: “When Muslims subscribe, without objection, to a faith that explicitly directs them to make war on non-Muslims, I find that worthy of criticism.”

    Will: “I would argue that all foundational religious texts say so many different things in such an ambiguous fashion that if you have 100 readers you have 100 interpretations. They pool together by shade and flavour. It is not the religion as much as it is the particular people. Yes I agree that Islam produces alot of terrorists or at least there is some professed connection from the terrorists themselves but these ppl are usually disenfranchised and misled. Possibly not much different than the children in the picture.”

    Will, the difference is that other major religions do not act on the violent passages of their holy texts while Islam does. Christians stopped suffering witches to live four centuries ago while Muslims are actively beheading infidels in accordance with the Koran now.

    Terrorists are not disenfranchised. Osama Bin Laden is not disenfranchised, neither is Dr. Zawahiri. The nineteen skyjackers of Sep 11 were not disenfranchised. They were all middle class or better off, much better off in the case of multimillionaire Bin Laden. The current jihad is not a fight against poverty by wretches but rather a war of religious imperialism fought by Muslims from comfortable circumstances.

    Will: “If 10% of the those claiming to be Muslim were even moderately in favor of terrorism and willing to support it materially in some way, that is something like one hundred million ppl. 100,000,000!!! Dont you think that we would be in worse shape than we are now?”

    Ten percent is the estimate given by some analysts of Islamic terror. Their ability to project terror is limited by their poor economic productivity and the general incompetence of terrorists.

    Steve

  67. mahmood says:

    Lujayn, you’re more than welcome! And thanks for your patronage. I hope you won’t tire too soon of us here.

  68. Steve The American says:

    Lujayn: “Steve, following up on billT’s post, one of the reasons you don’t hear much from the moderate majority is that it been cowed by political leadership very much supported by the US. From Morocco to Jordan, and across the Arab world, authoritarian regimes come down very strongly on any free thought, any hint of opposition, any independent opinion, and most of these regimes are buttressed by US political and financial clout.”

    That doesn’t wash, Lujayn. There are plenty of Muslims in Western nations who are free to speak and don’t. Muslims felt perfectly free enough to take to the streets of Western cities and protest the Mohammed cartoons, even to act out violently and demand the beheading of the cartoonists. There is no similar impulse to protest Islamic terror. There is no similar revulsion to violence done to non-Muslims. It is acceptable to most Muslims.

    Lujayn: “You can keep throwing the argument that nobody wants Saddam back, but he’s always been around, and nobody thought twice of removing him when he was gassing Kurds and massacring Shiites. In fact, Iraq was using mustard gas on the Iranians at around the time of Rumsfeld’s second visit to Iraq to meet Saddam back in 1984, yet he didn’t run back home and call on his administration to remove Saddam from power.”

    FDR cut deals with Stalin during WWII, even though Stalin had killed tens of millions of his own people. The US does not have the resources to stop every evil in the world, but it must stop the evil directed at its own people.

    Lujayn: “Not only did the US not do anything, they rewarded Saddam for his help in fighting the Iranians by allowing him to purchase a massive arsenal of weapons from US firms.”

    That’s pure nonsense, Lujayn. Iraq got 90% of its arms from the Soviets before Saddam. When Saddam took over, he diversified the Iraqi arms procurement by buying 60% of his arms from the Soviets and 30% from Europe. Even now, when the Iraqi army is our client, we are not supplying them with much in the way of weapons.

    This is obvious to anybody who can watch TV. The Iraqis carry AK-47s, not M-16s. They drove Soviet T-72 tanks, not US M-1s. They flew MiGs, not American fighter jets.

    Lujayn, I challenge you to name one weapons systems used by Saddam’s Iraq out of this fictional “massive arsenal of weapons from US firms.” When you come up empty, you might review why you have come to believe something that is completely untrue.

    Lujayn: “Please spare us the Kurd and Shiite sob stories. We’ve always thought they were horrible acts of terror, yet there was no forthcoming support from the land of the free and the home of the brave.”

    Uh, Lujayn, remember the 2003 invasion? That did indeed stop Saddam’s pogroms. That’s far more support than ever came from their Muslim brothers, who took no public notice of their plight and, in fact, cheered for Saddam.

    Lujayn: “As for the cash cow that I “insanely” believe the US war on Iraq is, most of the costs for reconstruction and the deployment of US forces, is being paid for by Iraq.”

    More nonsense. Iraq doesn’t have any money. The money for the military and for reconstruction is appropriated by US Congress. Lujayn, where do you get these wacky ideas?

    The combined cost of the war in Afghanistan and Iraq has been $361 billion, with Iraq costing nearly $6 billion per month, or $72 billion per year. The estimate is that the US will spend $570 billion on Iraq by 2010.

    Iraq had a GNP in 2001 of $59 billion.

    So let me break it down for you, Lujayn. The total value of everything Iraq produced per year before the war was $59 billion and the cost of the war in Iraq to the US is $72 billion per year. So tell us exactly how $59 billion pays off $72 billion?

    The fact is that Iraq’s economy was barely scraping along before the war and is doing worse now. Iraq couldn’t pay for its own electricity, let alone an overhaul of its infrastructure. The money for that is coming mainly from America.

    Lujayn: “In fact, of the $56 billion earmarked for reconstruction in Iraq (incidentally, mostly Japanese, European and Gulf Arab pledges), very little has been actually spent, with the greater part of it going to security for American companies, not reconstruction.

    A lot of the money has been held up because much money spent is being embezzled by Iraqis. They need better financial controls and accountability before they can open the money tap.

    Lujayn: “However, I do enjoy your input and find it quite challenging.”

    I’ll be expecting that fruit basket from you.

    Steve

  69. Lujayn says:

    I promise to do the maths properly and justify the claims, but for the time being do you really believe the Bush administration is paying $72 billion a year from its own coffers, to just get rid of Saddam? Was he that big a threat? I find that far-fetched, but then again I could be wrong. Maybe the war has nothing to do with oil (Iraq’s and the region’s), arms manufacturers, elections and power.

    As for the fruit basket, care to supply an address? 🙂

  70. Will says:

    Steve

    Ten percent is the estimate given by some analysts of Islamic terror. Their ability to project terror is limited by their poor economic productivity and the general incompetence of terrorists.

    Well if it is 10% then it certainly is not all or even most Muslims. Isnt there a contradiction between the terrorists being middle class or better and being limited by their poor economic productivity? I think alot of them receive support from a few wealthy benefactors or puppet masters. If 10% of the 300,000 Muslims living in Detroit were supportive of terrorism the US would be a blood bath. How competent do you have to be to crash your car into a passing fuel tanker? Perhaps disenfranchised is the wrong term or maybe they just see themselves that way. Dillusional is probably a better word.

  71. Steve The American says:

    Lujayn: “I promise to do the maths properly and justify the claims, but for the time being do you really believe the Bush administration is paying $72 billion a year from its own coffers, to just get rid of Saddam? Was he that big a threat? I find that far-fetched, but then again I could be wrong.”

    Lujayn, the destruction of the World Trade Center cost $200 billion in direct and indirect costs. In pure financial terms, staving off another such attack for $72 billion is financially prudent. Of course, the financial costs are secondary considerations in the defense of the country.

    Saddam had plans to smuggle ricin and other poisons to Europe and the US in perfume bottles. He was training two thousand foreign terrorists per year. He was preparing the Saddam Fedayeen for terrorist operations outside Iraq. He was a nasty piece of work who needed to be ousted for dozens of reasons.

    Lujayn, a deeper point here is that these anti-American claims which you accept unskeptically are easily unravelled by a simple search of the Internet. All that I ask is that you give every claim, anti- or pro-American, pro- or anti-Islam, the gimlet eye and check it against reality. If somebody makes a claim, think of what parts of that claim can be measured or confirmed, and check it out. You have the whole resources of the world at your fingertips via the Internet. Use them.

    Lujayn: “Maybe the war has nothing to do with oil (Iraq’s and the region’s), arms manufacturers, elections and power.”

    It would be much easier for the US to just buy oil from Saddam than to take over Iraq. At most, Iraq will be able to produce 10 million barrels of oil per day. It would be easier for us to get that by drilling in the ANWR. We wouldn’t have to form the arctic caribou into a democracy either.

    Oil has had a bad effect on Middle Eastern governments by giving them power without having to mature. Normally, to bring those kind of big bucks in, you’d have to build a physical and legal infrastructure to support manufacturing and services needed to produce things. You’d have to develop your human capital through education and social programs, then build an economic system that gives them the incentive to work. All that requires the development of leaders who can manage all that.

    That didn’t happen in the Middle East. They won the oil lotto and made bad use of it through immaturity. It’s like giving teenage gang members guaranteed $100,000 salaries. Nothing good can come of it.

    Arms manufacturers do not drive elections in America, no matter how much socialist crap you’ve heard to the contrary. Money spent on weapons is money not spent in America to benefit the people. Spending a bundle on a war is no way to get elected either. And nobody in America wants to own the Middle East. It’s like buying a violent slum.

    Lujayn: “As for the fruit basket, care to supply an address?

    Steve the American
    c/o Karl Rove
    Sub-basement G
    White House
    Washington, DC

    Hope that helps,

    Steve

  72. Steve The American says:

    Will: “Well if it is 10% then it certainly is not all or even most Muslims.

    Then add in the bulk of the Muslim population who are passive supporters of terror and the Muslims who may not like terror but won’t criticize other Muslims no matter what crimes they commit.

    I see it something like Jesse James in Missouri. The locals thought he was some kind of a hero robbing banks and trains and shooting people dead. While they may not have materially helped him, they didn’t help the authorities catch him either. He lived in town where plenty of people knew who he was.

    Will: “Isnt there a contradiction between the terrorists being middle class or better and being limited by their poor economic productivity?”

    Terror is a poor man’s game. If the states who supported terror had the means, they would field modern armies, navies, and air forces instead of terror cells. They draw their terrorists from their middle class. Most of the Sep 11 skyjackers had some college training, for example. Poor people don’t go to college. Or high school. Or finish elementary school.

    Will: “How competent do you have to be to crash your car into a passing fuel tanker?

    You have to be competent enough to scout a vulnerable target, get financing, acquire your tools for the attack, and implement it. Most Islamic terrorist attacks fail in the planning and acquisition stages for lack of basic competence. Terrorists are generally numbskulls who aren’t particularly good at managing things. They screw things up more often than not.

    Steve

  73. Ethan says:

    Wow.

    I can’t believe I missed this whole argument. I feel bereaved of it – but life goes on, so they say.

    As for my two dinars:
    We have to look at the historicity of the Koran in order to place certain verses into context. However, even in context, there is the little problem of the Koran having been ‘written by God’.

    Islam has always had an imperialist streak; Mohammed decide that his religion was true, and recieved commandments to ‘fight the unbelievers wherever you find them … until all religion was for Allah’. That’s a scary thing.

    Not to say that all Muslims ascribe to the imperialist ‘we must be a superpower’ rantings of folks like Osama or Moussaoui! However it is disingenous and a bald-faced lie to say that they are ‘not Muslim’. They are damn well Muslim. What else can they be? If you profess Islam as your faith, you are Muslim, and I would challenge anyone to theologically refute Osama’s preachings.

    Can you?

    You can’t. Islam doesn’t work that way. It’s one of the primary failings of that type of religion when married to a tribal culture. Islam has rules about belief, and rules that allow blood to be spilled legally by anyone when ‘unbelief’ has been spotted (in certain cases). In a sense, Mohammed designed the religion to be hijacked by whoever was in power, or whoever had the will to enforce their beliefs on others.

    Looking at the Middle East today, can you not see it? People win elections by being ‘more islamic’. Once they have power, they make things more islamic; and being nice little Allahbots, conditioned to believe not to think, vast swaths of the population simply eat that shit up.

    And thus, as an American myself, who loves his unveiled women, and freedom to express my disgust at Mohammed’s frankenstein (or any other religion) without fear of imprisonment or death at the hands of overzealous Muttawa, the very idea that some branch of Islam wants to rule the world and tell -me- what to think bothers me enough to wish for more solid action to be taken against the dawa of evil.

    Does that make me a racist or a bigot? Justifiable fear is not bigotry. Right? Right?

  74. Anonymous says:

    First, my apologies to everyone that is growing tired of this discussion. I promise to stop feeding the troll after this.

    Steve:
    “Uh, yeah, teaching your kids that Communism is better than democracy and that the way to change governments is to wage a violent revolution against the government strikes me as a bad thing”

    First off, Communism is an economic system, not a goverment type, so you can’t compare it with a democracy. As for using violent revolution to change governments, why yes, that’s exactly what I want my sons to believe in (at least as an option…).

    You might recognize this paragraph…
    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government…”

    The US Declaration of Independence, written by Thomas Jefferson. Just so that we know where Mr Jefferson stood, another quote:

    “…what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers
    are not warned from time to time that his people preserve the spirit
    of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right
    as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives
    lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
    time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”

    Shipwack: “It has been proven that the Dems are more sane in foreign policy; … the current proposal being floated around is a phased withdrawal (not “unilateral) to the peripherary, close enough to support the Iraqi government troops if needed and requested.”

    Steve: Shipwack, I hate to burst your bubble, but withdrawing to allow the Iraqis to take over is the current plan

    If that is actually the current plan, why have Senators Murtha and Kerry been savaged by the Republicans for suggesting it? This administration’s plan is for us to stay in the region “until things stabilise”. Since things will never be stable as long as we’re there, we are never going to leave.

    Steve:
    “If we hadn’t invaded Iraq, there would have been more bloodshed, not only within Iraq but outside Iraq as well. Iraq was training 2000 foreign terrorists each year toward the end, 8000 total, according to captured Iraq documents. The Saddam fedayeen was being tasked in a “Blessed July” campaign to strike targets in Europe. And of course, the covert WMD labs were standing by to resume operation.”

    Please, leave your fantasy land. There were -no- WMDs found, nor facilities for mass (or even minor) production of them, despite the American governments proclamations that they knew exactly where they were. Neither was any evidence of massive terrorist training facilities found. The war was started either on a lie. or willful incompetance, since there were plenty of agencies internally refuting Bush’s claims that were ignored.

    In fact, there are now more terrorists trainning in Iraq after Saddam’s fall than there were while he was in power. Terrorism throughout the world has gone -up- every year since Bush invaded Iraq. Definitely not “Mission Accomplished”

    I am finished discussing this with you. I will not change your mind, and you can’t come up with any facts to change mine. I take comfort in the fact that your hateful ignorance is in the minority even in the US. The November elections will start the needed house (and House and Senate) cleaning in the US.

  75. Lujayn says:

    Steve, I haven’t been on Mahmood’s blog long, just a couple of days, and I’ve only read your responses to the few posts in the last couple of days, but what I have noticed is that you will call anyone’s argument, crap and their sources, rubbish, while you throw around number after unsubstantiated number, claim after unsubstantiated claim, like it was the Bible.

    I appreciate some of the criticism, and I concede that there is plenty of room for reform in this part of the world, but don’t condescendingly accuse me of unskeptically accepting anti-American claims without a simple check on the Internet. First of all, I am not anti-American. I am anti-current US administration foreign policy (where it pertains to the Middle East, specifically). I guess yours is a case of if you’re not with us, then you’re against us, which is the trend nowadays in the US leadership (let me guess, you’ll tell me that this claim is flawed too). If I don’t accept the hypocritical, double-standards being exhibited by the US these days in the region, then I’m an ignoramus that needs to be told how to test a claim? Not accepting these standards does not mean I accept what is being done in the name of religion here in the region. I accept neither.

    Second of all, the very resources on the Internet that you claim should enlighten me and unravel the “only truth”, are the same resources that I have used to support my claims. My resources say the US sold Saddam 60 Hughes helicopters and 10 Bell “Huey” helicopters for military use. Yours say 2000 fedayeen were trained by Saddam every year (a claim that I have never heard before; incidentally, where did these thousands and thousands of men trained to kill themselves for Saddam disappear off to, when it was time to defend him?) For every website that supports your opinion, there is one that supports mine. And I’m not talking about extremist websites, so please save the snide remark. I tend to read mostly western media sources and opinions. Should they be discounted just because they don’t tow the official line? Let me know, maybe I could use some enlightenment.

    As for the fruit basket, I’m sorry, you lost my respect by being condescending.

  76. M says:

    Steve the American
    c/o Karl Rove
    Sub-basement G
    White House
    Washington, DC

    Ah, never a dull minute when you’re around, Steve. Thanks for bringing a smile to a rainy dull day.

    Yosh

  77. Lujayn says:

    Mahmood, I apologize for hijacking your blog to go on and on about a topic that must have bored everyone to death, especially since we seem to be going nowhere. Sincere apologies, and I will shut up now.

  78. Steve The American says:

    Lujayn: “My resources say the US sold Saddam 60 Hughes helicopters and 10 Bell “Huey” helicopters for military use.”

    Lujayn, my understanding is that these helicopters were sold to Iraq for civilian use and once in country they were transferred to the military by Saddam. I might point out that these type of helicopters are not weapons platforms like a Cobra or an Apache. They are utility helicopters, something like flying pickup trucks.

    Consequently, this charge strikes me as rather thin. If we sold Iraq some pickup trucks and Saddam stuck machine guns on them, does that mean we sold him military weapons?

    Lujayn: “Yours say 2000 fedayeen were trained by Saddam every year (a claim that I have never heard before; incidentally, where did these thousands and thousands of men trained to kill themselves for Saddam disappear off to, when it was time to defend him?)”

    Not two thousand fedayeen, but foreign terrorists. The Saddam Fedayeen were a different organization. The training of foreign terrorists by Saddam has been recently revealed by analysis of documents captured in Iraq as described in this link. Many of the terrorists came back to fight as insurgents. The rest scattered. The foreign terrorists were not trained to kill themselves for Saddam, but rather to raise hell abroad.

    Now, Lujayn, a question you might ask yourself is why did none of the sources you read report this info?

    Lujayn: “For every website that supports your opinion, there is one that supports mine. And I’m not talking about extremist websites, so please save the snide remark. I tend to read mostly western media sources and opinions. Should they be discounted just because they don’t tow the official line? Let me know, maybe I could use some enlightenment.

    It was not intended as a snide remark, Lujayn, but earnest advice. You seem to accept anti-American positions uncritically.

    I wouldn’t believe any western media at face value, as a general rule. Most media is written by liberals with a political agenda. I’d look for dissenting views.

    Lujayn: “As for the fruit basket, I’m sorry, you lost my respect by being condescending.”

    Aw, lighten up, Lujayn. I was just joshing with you. I’m sure Karl Rove would appreciate a fruit basket.

    Steve

  79. Steve The American says:

    “Steve: Shipwack, I hate to burst your bubble, but withdrawing to allow the Iraqis to take over is the current plan

    Anonymous: “If that is actually the current plan, why have Senators Murtha and Kerry been savaged by the Republicans for suggesting it? This administration’s plan is for us to stay in the region “until things stabilise”. Since things will never be stable as long as we’re there, we are never going to leave.”

    The Bush administration is withdrawing our forces as the Iraqis take over. Murtha & Kerry want to set a date for withdrawal whether the Iraqis have control of their country or not. They rightly deserve scorn for wanting to abandon the Iraqis.

    I disagree that Iraq will not stabilize with an American presence. It’s quite the reverse. Iraq can not stabilize without an American presence. Already, the Kurdish north is stable and the Shia south. It’s the Sunni middle that’s the problem. The fighting there is on a general slow long term decline as Sunnis enter the political process. Zarqawi is just two steps away from being caught and the Baathists are being whittled down.

    Steve: “If we hadn’t invaded Iraq, there would have been more bloodshed, not only within Iraq but outside Iraq as well. Iraq was training 2000 foreign terrorists each year toward the end, 8000 total, according to captured Iraq documents. The Saddam fedayeen was being tasked in a “Blessed July” campaign to strike targets in Europe. And of course, the covert WMD labs were standing by to resume operation.”

    Anonymous: “Please, leave your fantasy land. There were -no- WMDs found, nor facilities for mass (or even minor) production of them, despite the American governments proclamations that they knew exactly where they were.”

    You’re dead wrong. Dozens of WMDs were found, according to the Duelfer report, though not the thousands we expected. Dozens of WMDs are not “-no- WMDs”. The Duelfer report also reported the discover of a network of covert WMD labs that were apparently lying idle. Duelfer is sure that mass production was not happenning but suspects small batches of WMD were made either for research or terrorism.

    According to Saddam’s lieutenants, Saddam was lying low with the WMDs until the inspection regime lifted, at which time he intended to go back into mass production.

    The only part of your statement that is correct is that the US government did not know exactly where the labs were located. The rest of it is lefty myth, which has been refuted by reality.

    Anonymous: “Neither was any evidence of massive terrorist training facilities found. The war was started either on a lie. or willful incompetance, since there were plenty of agencies internally refuting Bush’s claims that were ignored.”

    Dead wrong, again. Salman Pak was known to be a training center for terrorists before the war and has been confirmed as one since. As shown in the link from my previous post, examination of captured Iraqi documents shows that Saddam was training two thousand foreign terrorists per year immediately before the 2003 invasion, eight thousand terrorists in all.

    Anonymous: “In fact, there are now more terrorists trainning in Iraq after Saddam’s fall than there were while he was in power. Terrorism throughout the world has gone -up- every year since Bush invaded Iraq. Definitely not “Mission Accomplished”

    It seems unlikely that more terrorists are training in Iraq now than during Saddam. There are only about 25,000 to 30,000 insurgents in Iraq. Only a few hundred foreign terrorists are entering Iraq per year, most of whom are killed or die in suicide attacks. That’s much less than the two thousand per year (that we know of so far) terrorists Saddam trained who were free to leave and were not being hunted down by the US military.

    Most of the foreign terrorists, such as Saudis and Syrians and North Africans, receive little or no training. The pros use them as suicide fodder. They are briefly shown an RPG and then sent off on a mission. Some are told to drive vehicles laden with explosives, unknown to them, and are detonated by remote control once in position. Doesn’t take much training to do that.

    Anonymous: “I am finished discussing this with you. I will not change your mind, and you can’t come up with any facts to change mine. I take comfort in the fact that your hateful ignorance is in the minority even in the US. The November elections will start the needed house (and House and Senate) cleaning in the US.”

    Actually, I have come up with quite a few facts here that directly rebut your claims. It’s ironic that you present no facts to back up your positions, which are clearly shown to be false, yet you claim anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant. I think you have come by your positions through hearsay from your liberal pals and have not taken the time to get a grasp of the current events readily available to any newspaper reader. You are just regurgitating lefty talking points, oblivious to reality. I think that you are like most liberals in that you adopt the positions your friends take to fit in with the crowd.

    So bon voyage. I wish you a nice trip back to your nice, cozy liberal world where everyone believes the same things and the doors are kept sealed against dissenting opinions and facts. It’s much easier than thinking.

    Steve

  80. Steve The American says:

    Lujayn: “Mahmood, I apologize for hijacking your blog to go on and on about a topic that must have bored everyone to death, especially since we seem to be going nowhere. Sincere apologies, and I will shut up now.”

    Aw, Lujayn, stop apologizing and start arguing. If people get bored by it, they will stop reading and go find out what Mahmood’s doing in his garden. You never see me worrying about boring people to death, do ya?

    You know, Lujayn, you need to build up your debating stamina. Take some vitamins. Have a glass of juice. Then step back in the ring. You’ve made a good start.

    Steve

  81. mahmood says:

    Lujayn: Mahmood, I apologize for hijacking your blog

    Don’t worry about it, at the very least let’s hope that we open the minds of readers with these various debates. I don’t even mind Steve’s bigotry sometimes as within all the crap you can find gems; rarely I grant you, but the finds do happen from time to time. 😉

  82. Al-hajeji says:

    mahmood: you have a dirty mouth, there is no need to talk like that, i said i was sorry about threatening you and promised not to. and traditionally, i invite you, but if you do refuse my invitation then Ok, no problem. But to swear and use ditry words? there is no need, are you trying to show off? i wont be visiting your website anymore.

  83. Lujayn says:

    I seriously doubt anyone is going to change their mind. The most I was hoping for was a level of guarded respect. I think Steve makes a strong argument (although sometimes its just a case of being steamrollered into accepting his point of view).

    Steve, I think that to get anywhere, we should know what the point of this is. I was hoping that you would realize that there are many sides to this very complex situation, and that to condemn every Arab and Muslim of being a terrorist is a shame. You, however, just want to tell us how we are terrorists by proxy. What more can I say? Whats the point of debating, when you refuse to acknowledge us?

    I am off to bed; early yes, but I’ve had a particularly rough afternoon healthwise (nothing to do with Steve) and its floored me. Good night all and thanks Mahmood.

  84. Steve The American says:

    Bigotry, Mahmood? My Oxford calls a bigot “an obstinate and intolerant believer in a religion, political theory, etc.”

    Now you may have me on the “obstinate” part, as I am quite firm in my beliefs, though certainly willing to debate and defend them, rather than avoiding contradiction like the troglodyte ideologues of the Left.

    However, “intolerant” is a poor fit. I’m really quite a tolerant person to a fault. Some of the few things I’m intolerant of are intolerance, religious violence, and infringement of free speech. Those are fine targets for intolerance and my main grievance with Islam. Change those behaviors and my criticism of Islam evaporates.

    I’m not much a believer in religion, so the bigot definition hardly applies in that sense. I am an obstinate believer in democracy and capitalism. So I may fit the bigot bill there. In fact, I’d be perfectly willing to carry a sign that says, “OBSTINATE BELIEVER IN DEMOCRACY & CAPITALISM!” Or perhaps a neon sign in my window. So you may have me there.

    And, of course, I’m an obstinate believer in America. In fact, just writing that last sentence makes me want to fire a few rounds in the air and yell “YEEEEEEHAWWWW!”

    That said, I am flattered to hear you admit, admittedly through clenched teeth, that you do find some flecks of gold while panning my river of thought. I will take the compliment and run.

    Steve

  85. Ibn says:

    Lujayn,

    I think you have a right to know, that if you are a Muslim, and have not “publically gone off to denounce terrorism”, then Karl Rove’s playmate Steve actually “holds you responsible for Sep11th”.

    …No Im serious…he really does… 🙂

    Keep that in mind.

    ———————–

    Ethan,

    Does that make me a racist or a bigot? Justifiable fear is not bigotry. Right? Right?

    No. Simply holding a religion in bad light does not make you a bigot. Afterall, a religion is an idea. But claiming to somehow “know” that any Muslim you lay eyes on will want to kill you, makes you a bigot. This for the simple fact that you have not judged him as an individual, but rather, by his faith.

    Let me prove it: – and this is going to show the magnitude of variance in religion: A person can say “I am a Muslim” and then proceed to go to his 9-5. A person can say “I am Muslim” and then blow up a bus. In fact a person can say “I am Muslim” and smoke dope.

    How do we explain this emperical variance? If by definition Islam = violent, and a person claims “I am Muslim” but does not do violence, (like the vast majority), then HOW do you explain this? Clearly, one of our definitions is wrong. If you are dead certain that Islam is violent, then the majority arent real Muslims afterall, even if they say they are, thereby negating the original point of “I am scared of Muslims”, since apparently there are only a couple thousand “real Muslims” apparently, out of 1.2 billion. This train of thought splits “real” Muslims from “fake” ones, where the real ones are violent. Thats great – but then you cant call non-violent people-of-the-Islamic-faith “Muslims” anymore, and the argument goes moot.

    On the other hand, if you believe Islam does not put one under the magic spell of violence, then the violence exhibited by people who follow it must be explained by human nature – motives – and the own choices that they make. Said individuals will cherry pick violent verses to suit some other political goal, while the “majority” will cherry pick other norms and verses and simply get on with their lives. This places the onus of ones actions not on his religion, but one their motives. And political motives are all to common in that part of the world.

    So there’s your breakdown. I subscibe to the second train of thought, but I do not lose sleep if someone subscribes to the first, because by their own logic, non-violent-Muslims are not “real” Muslims, which then goes on to negate anything they say about Muslims in general. I suspect Steve The Grand Inquisitor subscribes to #1, but as shown, his own argument collapses under its own weight if indeed he does believe #1.

    -Ibn

  86. Ibn says:

    That said, I am flattered to hear you admit, admittedly through clenched teeth, that you do find some flecks of gold while panning my river of thought. I will take the compliment and run

    Even human feces has vitamins.

    -Ibn

  87. Steve The American says:

    Lujayn: “I seriously doubt anyone is going to change their mind. The most I was hoping for was a level of guarded respect. I think Steve makes a strong argument (although sometimes its just a case of being steamrollered into accepting his point of view).

    Lujayn, free speech is a rough game. You may need a little thicker skin. However, you’ve done fine. You’re a little heavy on the political cant but you haven’t stooped to name-calling. That’s in your favor.

    Changing people’s minds is a game of inches, not miles. You don’t accomplish it in one day.

    And if I didn’t respect you, Lujayn, I wouldn’t bother engaging you.

    Lujayn: “Steve, I think that to get anywhere, we should know what the point of this is. I was hoping that you would realize that there are many sides to this very complex situation, and that to condemn every Arab and Muslim of being a terrorist is a shame. You, however, just want to tell us how we are terrorists by proxy. What more can I say? Whats the point of debating, when you refuse to acknowledge us?”

    Lujayn, I’m not saying that every Muslim is a terrorist. What I am saying is that everybody who professes to be a Muslim has some responsibility for terrorism done to propagate Islam. Maybe it’s complete and direct responsibility, as in the case of Bin Laden or Zarqawi. Maybe its distant and indirect, as in the case of Muslims fishing in the Pacific a thousand miles from the nearest land.

    But each and every one of you pushes or pulls Islam in a direction toward or away from violence, even if only a millimeter. If enough Muslims pull Islam a millimeter away from violence, then the strongest terrorist at the other end can not resist. If you let Islam be pulled toward terror without adding your tiny bit of resistance, then you share in the blame for its violent vector, if only a tiny bit.

    Lujayn: “I am off to bed; early yes, but I’ve had a particularly rough afternoon healthwise (nothing to do with Steve) and its floored me. Good night all and thanks Mahmood.”

    Get your rest. In the words of the immortal philosopher O’Hara, “Tomorrow is another day.”

    Steve

    PS. Whatever you do, don’t dream of big red, white, & blue elephants with George Bush’s face.

  88. Ibn says:

    But each and every one of you pushes or pulls Islam in a direction toward or away from violence, even if only a millimeter. If enough Muslims pull Islam a millimeter away from violence, then the strongest terrorist at the other end can not resist. If you let Islam be pulled toward terror without adding your tiny bit of resistance, then you share in the blame for its violent vector, if only a tiny bit.

    Unfortunately Lujayn, you are in a long line of victims who have come across Steve, debated a little, and realised that he gets his strength from being stubborn as a rock, because he is “sticking to his guns”, even though I have shown on many occasion how he is inconsistant and contradictory. He doesnt answer those criticisms however. But I forgive you, you are new here, and didnt know better. But know youve seen Steve’s true face.

    About what Steve is saying:

    The concept Steve is purpoting here is pushing-or-pulling an idea (Islam) towards or away from another idea (violence). This is a misnomer – Islam is a train of thought, a religion. It can’t be “pushed” towards this, or pushed towards that – only people can. People are actors, and they are the ones who can “pull” and “push” each other. Ideas arent verbs.

    If you let Islam be pulled toward terror without adding your tiny bit of resistance, then you share in the blame for its violent vector, if only a tiny bit

    This is the heart of Steve’s fallacy – an idea sits in abstract space irregardless of who says what about it. Its already been said, and articulated, 1400 years ago. That idea, Islam, has wide variance.

    Islam cannot be “pulled” in a direction. Ideas arent pulled or pushed – thats the whole definition on an “idea” – it is a set of principles that sit tight. If they change, its a different idea. People can change however. That being said, if someone does not go about doing senseless violence, he has ALREADY “pulled” himself away from violence. He answers for no one else but himself. No one else. This is key.

    —————————- Bottom line ———————————

    The fact that about a billion people call themselves “Muslim” and do NOT engage in senseless violence right there means they have already “pulled” themselves and articulated their faiths away from mindless violence.

    If someone honestly cannot see this, they are pretty dense. Its emperical evidence. Someone who discounts empericism has alot to answer for his credibility.

    -Ibn

  89. M says:

    “That being said, if someone does not go about doing senseless violence, he has ALREADY “pulled” himself away from violence. He answers for no one else but himself. No one else. This is key.

    The fact that about a billion people call themselves “Muslim” and do NOT engage in senseless violence right there means they have already “pulled” themselves and articulated their faiths away from mindless violence. ”

    Does it really, Ibn? What kind of logic is that? It could mean that, or it could mean silent approval. Or it could mean the status quo is simply good enough; could also mean a lot of stuff. I agree that Steve overplays his hand about this stuff, but he has the right people thinking; and I would surmise that is his purpose. He wants more, and that’s happening just at a slower pace than someone from the outside would like. It can only be done from within, and it’s a pretty big thing that’s going to eat us all up if we don’t stand up to it.

  90. Will says:

    M

    I think you make a valid point but I also think Steve is doing more harm than good. He is stimulateing the conversation but his arguments dont really hold water. Terrorism doesnt have anything to do with religion and by linking the two you give the cowards more credibility than they deserve.

  91. Aliandra says:

    IBN: and do NOT engage in senseless violence right there means they have already “pulled” themselves and articulated their faiths away from mindless violence

    Your statement would imply that the majority of German citizens, while collectively anti-semitic, were completely innocent in the Holocaust by the fact that they did not directly participate in the killing of their neighbors.

    I disagree. The collective attitudes of a society influence the way in which the more belligerent members act. If bigotry is in the newspapers, on the TV, in the houses of worship etc, and the passive majority does nothing about it, they cannot be 100% excused.

  92. Ibn says:

    Does it really, Ibn? What kind of logic is that? It could mean that, or it could mean silent approval. Or it could mean the status quo is simply good enough; could also mean a lot of stuff.

    You yourself concede that “it could mean alot of stuff”. So if that is the case, why are you being fixated to mean only the negative “stuff” than Steve is insinuating? If it could mean just about anything, then maybe it also means that they dont support terrorists! Eh? Why not?

    It can only be done from within, and it’s a pretty big thing that’s going to eat us all up if we don’t stand up to it.

    Non – Sequitor. No where has anyone said that Islamic Fascism shouldnt be fought. Please do not lose sight of what we are discussing – we are currently discussing how it is that somehow “Lujayn” is somehow “responsible” for Sep11th, as Steve-The-Inquisitor has accused him of, BY VIRTUE OF BEING A MUSLIM. Thats the issue M. Stick to it.

    That being said, the only window we really have into peoples’ minds are their actions. Even evidence brought to court must is associated with actions, and piecing of hardcore evidence to show a path to action that is a crime. Judge by anything else, and you become the inquisition.

    And so if Steve is going to throw around no less than accusations against people DUE to their religion, then you are damned right I will be right here to speak out against this travestry. If you are going to tell me that someone is “responsible” for murdering 3000+ people, then show me the evidence. Otherwise, that individual must CEASE and DESIST or face potential charges of libel and defamation of character. THAT is the issue Mr M.

    And thats what I dont like about Steve. Its not so much his stances. (Ive heard much worse). Its the fact that he cannot face up to counter-arguments. I dont like weakness. I despise it. Either he is too cowardly, or he’s got nothing. I think its the latter. I lose respect for people who do not answer counter arguments. At least have the balls to say: “You have me, and I am not sure. I need time to think.” Thats fine! We’re human! But instead I get the latest rant, yes rant, on yet another example of Muslims from the wrong part of the bell curve.

    Steve wants to hunt down and capture or kill Islamic Fasicsts, who ACT on their beliefs. So do I. But when he uses the word “responsible” in this manner, he is shooting people with an RPG, instead of a sniper’s bullet. And if he does not care to discriminate, then he is but a different side of the same terrorist coin as far as Im concerned.

    —————————-

    Aliandra:

    Your statement would imply that the majority of German citizens, while collectively anti-semitic, were completely innocent in the Holocaust by the fact that they did not directly participate in the killing of their neighbors.

    Wrong. It would imply that an Indonesian fisherman who happens to pray five times a day and believe in Allah, has nothing to do with a terrorist from Saudi Arabia who blows up a building in New York.

    You have the wrong analogy.

    -Ibn

  93. Jared in NYC says:

    Lujayn, just a note of support regarding your engagement with Steve.

    Although perhaps not a dishonorable person, he lacks honor when he claims (as he does) that the Iraq war is fought mostly by “red state” republicans, and is unable to acknowledge the merit of the many deep criticisms of how the war has been justified and executed.

    Fortunately, this view is not shared by senior officers at the War College, or my own former comrades, one of whom is in Iraq now. The professional US Military contains a strong current of open, creative and honest free thinking which has been reasserting itself.

    Though many of his criticisms of Islamic societies have merit in my opinion, anyone who personally knows a lot of Arab and muslim people realizes that his sweeping generalizations of all muslim people do not. I know and have known many fine people from that world.

    In my opinion, Steve is a smart guy and I hoped to learn a few things from him, as I have from several friends of mine with views that differ from my own. Regretably, I discovered that he is primarily a partisan hack. On the positive side, I’ve learned a lot by reading responses to his more outrageous claims by people like Mahmood, Jasra, Carsten, Dr. Jensen, and many others.

    I do hope you enjoy a long and and pleasant stay as a fellow guest in Mahmoodistan, it’s a fascinating place!

  94. Will says:


    M

    I think you make a valid point but I also think Steve is doing more harm than good. He is stimulateing the conversation but his arguments dont really hold water. Terrorism doesnt have anything to do with religion and by linking the two you give the cowards more credibility than they deserve

    My last post was posted posthaste and requires some editing.

    I dont know if Steve is doing more harm than good but I think that he is detracting from the argument that Islam needs a mechanism for change.
    The terrorists of today use religion as a shield and banner in an effort to legitamize their dispicable conduct and it should be rejected. Its a red herring. Islam plays a part but doesnt it have more to do with ego and power?

    Cowards isnt the right word. It is a complex issue . This homicidal maniac with a bomb is an uneducated brain washed teenaged religious zealot and that one is a father who watched his family die from a stray bomb.

  95. Steve The American says:

    Jared: “Although perhaps not a dishonorable person, he lacks honor when he claims (as he does) that the Iraq war is fought mostly by “red state” republicans, and is unable to acknowledge the merit of the many deep criticisms of how the war has been justified and executed.”

    That’s not exactly my claim, Jared. The US military is composed of approximately two thirds conservatives to one third liberals. That means that conservatives join the military at twice the rate of liberals.

    Certainly if you have served in the US military, you can not have failed to notice a strong tradition of military service in the South with a similar tradition, though not quite as pronounced, in Middle America. I don’t see that same strong military tradition in the Big Blue Cities, certainly not Manhattan. As you go from region to region, city to city, you can feel the change rather dramatically. Any reference to the military made in casual conversation in San Francisco will be met with shrill derision. In Manhattan it’s more distracted annoyance. By contrast, you get a respectful reception as a military man in Middle America.

    I’ve met many people in the military. Most of them came from the middle class. I’m a grocer’s son. I met ranchers’ sons, factory workers’ sons, farmers’ sons, and such in uniform. I have never met in uniform the son of a professor nor TV producer. Morris Janiwitz, the military sociologist, observed that the upper middle class and wealthy do not volunteer for the military. Maybe he was dishonorable for observing that, in your view.

    I’ve never met anyone in uniform from Manhattan. Long Island is the closest I can claim. I have met a lot of people from podunk towns in Montana and Wyoming, which probably have smaller populations than New York City.

    As for criticisms of the war in Iraq, there are some serious ones to be made but I rarely see them made here or in the media, for that matter. Most of the criticism of the war here is fairly thoughtless: the US invaded Iraq for its oil, the US wants to control the Arab world, etc.

    Jared: “In my opinion, Steve is a smart guy and I hoped to learn a few things from him, as I have from several friends of mine with views that differ from my own. Regretably, I discovered that he is primarily a partisan hack. On the positive side, I’ve learned a lot by reading responses to his more outrageous claims by people like Mahmood, Jasra, Carsten, Dr. Jensen, and many others.”

    Yawn. Jared, do you know how many times I’ve heard a liberal dismiss uncomfortable dissenting positions with such blithe characterizations? If my arguments are partisan hackery, it should be child’s play to take them apart and show them as such. You opt out of that, eh?

    Steve

  96. Jared

    Just a point of note. One of my best friends who is a retired Army Officer was based at the Presidio in San Fran for a while towards the end of his career. He was told upon arrival that he should not wear his uniform outside of the base due to the hostile nature of the residents in San Francisco area towards US military personal. Prior to 9-11 I have friends who told me of being harassed in NYC while wearing the uniform of their respective branches. There is a stark difference in how Blue areas and Red areas treat our military forces. A factor that has been going on for decades.

  97. Steve The American says:

    Ibn,

    Since you have given up your more obnoxious histrionics, I will consider your argument.

    Ibn: “The concept Steve is purpoting here is pushing-or-pulling an idea (Islam) towards or away from another idea (violence). This is a misnomer – Islam is a train of thought, a religion. It can’t be “pushed” towards this, or pushed towards that – only people can. People are actors, and they are the ones who can “pull” and “push” each other. Ideas arent verbs.

    Islam, like any other man-made structure, changes. Things are added, subtracted, and modified. The most dramatic way it is changing today is the way the Wahhabis are pushing it toward active warfare against the non-Muslim world and terror. They send missionaries throughout the world to push their interpretation and use their money to take over mosques to advocate their violent take on Islam. They recruit young dumb kids to do violence.

    Ibn: “Islam cannot be “pulled” in a direction. Ideas arent pulled or pushed – thats the whole definition on an “idea” – it is a set of principles that sit tight. If they change, its a different idea. People can change however. That being said, if someone does not go about doing senseless violence, he has ALREADY “pulled” himself away from violence. He answers for no one else but himself. No one else. This is key.

    I disagree. What about a couple years ago when Al Qaeda gunmen shot some British guy on the street in Saudi Arabia. Passing Saudis refused to help him as he lay bleeding. In your view, those Saudi Muslims are blameless because they are not the ones who perpetrated the violence. In my view, they are culpable for pulling themselves away from the violence, by aggravating the violence through indifference. It’s hard to see how you could argue that they have not contributed to this violence by walking away, by turning their backs on it.

    Steve

  98. M says:

    Will,

    I understand what you are saying about Steve, but I disagree. We are supposed to be adults; and as long as it doesn’t get particularly personal or threatening, then Steve’s pov is just as valid as anyone else. If people want to take their bat and ball and run off because they can’t shake his beliefs or disagree with him, then that is their problem and not his. While I don’t agree with some of the stuff he says, I admire his willingness to stay engaged.

    Ibn,
    Does it really, Ibn? What kind of logic is that? It could mean that, or it could mean silent approval. Or it could mean the status quo is simply good enough; could also mean a lot of stuff.
    You yourself concede that “it could mean alot of stuff”………. then maybe it also means that they dont support terrorists! Eh? Why not?

    I think that was covered by the “It could meant that, or” routine; but just to make your day, it also “maybe also means they don’t support terrorists!” or not.

    It can only be done from within, and it’s a pretty big thing that’s going to eat us all up if we don’t stand up to it.
    Non – Sequitor. No where has anyone said that Islamic Fascism shouldnt be fought. Please do not lose sight of what we are discussing – we are currently discussing how it is that somehow “Lujayn” is somehow “responsible” for Sep11th, as Steve-The-Inquisitor has accused him of, BY VIRTUE OF BEING A MUSLIM. Thats the issue M. Stick to it.

    Ibn, save your control games for someone else. I understand the topic, and Steve doesn’t need my help to explain his beliefs or words. He is quite capable, as he has repeated shown, to do that well by himself.

  99. Steve The American says:

    Ibn: “Please do not lose sight of what we are discussing – we are currently discussing how it is that somehow “Lujayn” is somehow “responsible” for Sep11th, as Steve-The-Inquisitor has accused him of, BY VIRTUE OF BEING A MUSLIM. Thats the issue M. Stick to it.”

    I have made no such accusation against Lujayn. You have invented this. I challenge you to point it out.

    Ibn: “If you are going to tell me that someone is “responsible” for murdering 3000+ people, then show me the evidence. Otherwise, that individual must CEASE and DESIST or face potential charges of libel and defamation of character. THAT is the issue Mr M.”

    I’ve explained this several times. You avoid the argument and build scarecrow arguments instead. If you wink at terror, you are supporting it, albeit in a small way.

    Ibn: “And thats what I dont like about Steve. Its not so much his stances. (Ive heard much worse). Its the fact that he cannot face up to counter-arguments. I dont like weakness. I despise it. Either he is too cowardly, or he’s got nothing. I think its the latter. I lose respect for people who do not answer counter arguments. At least have the balls to say: “You have me, and I am not sure. I need time to think.” Thats fine! We’re human! But instead I get the latest rant, yes rant, on yet another example of Muslims from the wrong part of the bell curve.

    Quite frankly, Ibn, if you hate people who don’t respond to counter-arguments, you must hate yourself quite a bit. You don’t make rebuttals. You simply have ignored my responses to repeat your original arguments over and over. You actually cut and paste your argument at least three times instead of responding to what I said. You’re a broken record.

    Aliandra: “Your statement would imply that the majority of German citizens, while collectively anti-semitic, were completely innocent in the Holocaust by the fact that they did not directly participate in the killing of their neighbors.”

    Ibn: “Wrong. It would imply that an Indonesian fisherman who happens to pray five times a day and believe in Allah, has nothing to do with a terrorist from Saudi Arabia who blows up a building in New York.”

    I disagree. When that fisherman makes landfall and reacts to the news of the Saudi attacks, he supports or rejects it through his example. He pushes or pulls the popular opinion a hair one way or another. He could express glee that infidels were killed en masse. He could be indifferent. He could object, saying that he has been to non-Muslim countries full of good people who should be left in peace. Whatever his response, he helps set the moral environment and gives cues to others as to what is praiseworthy or contemptible. In some small way, he is responsible for the vector of his religion.

    Steve

  100. Steve The American says:

    Ibn: “The fact that about a billion people call themselves “Muslim” and do NOT engage in senseless violence right there means they have already “pulled” themselves and articulated their faiths away from mindless violence.”

    M: “Does it really, Ibn? What kind of logic is that? It could mean that, or it could mean silent approval. Or it could mean the status quo is simply good enough; could also mean a lot of stuff. I agree that Steve overplays his hand about this stuff, but he has the right people thinking; and I would surmise that is his purpose. He wants more, and that’s happening just at a slower pace than someone from the outside would like. It can only be done from within, and it’s a pretty big thing that’s going to eat us all up if we don’t stand up to it.”

    Overplay my hand? Sheesh. Everytime somebody agrees with me I can hear their teeth grinding as they do it. After all the work I do here, where is the love? Where. Is. The. Love? That’s all I’m asking.

    Think of the responsibility at the family level. What if a member of your family was an alcoholic? Would you be responsible for his alcoholism if you brought him all the liquor he wanted and cheered him on as he chugged that whiskey down? Would you be responsible if you did nothing and watched him drink himself to death? Or would you be more moral to actively work against his alcoholism by making an issue of it?

    The point is that you are connected to your community and to mankind. You can not absolve yourself of all responsibility for them. A little bit or a lot of what they do sticks to you.

    Steve

  101. Jared in NYC says:

    Steve,

    If you haven’t seen good criticisms of the war in Iraq, then you only read and listen to sources that you agree with. Try Foreign Affairs, try the Economist, Try Public TV news, (disparaged by right wing extremists, respected by most Republicans and Democrats). Try the retired commanders who are speaking out and 2/3rds of the American public, which now doesn’t approve of and/or trust the Bush administration when it comes to Iraq. Try the returning veterans who are running for office, nearly all on the Democratic side.

    In your view, I suppose they’re all NYC Liberals.

    Unlike you, I don’t pretend to know the answers. I’ve heard honest and thoughtful assertions that differ from mine and learned from them, but go far enough to to the left or right, and you’ll meet the same crazies from the other side (credit to Clint Eastwood for that comment). You’re often one of them.

    Steve said ” And it’s the conservatives from the heartland of America mainly, guys like me, who join the military and fight the fight. It’s not the sons of blue state professors nor big city newspaper editors nor TV producers in Manhattan. Oddly enough, it’s the liberals who largely have no family in the fight who want to retreat from Iraq.”

    Contrary to your false assertion, the fact is that some Democrats and some Republicans have called for withdrawal. I think that would be a mistake, and most Democrats and Republicans do also.

    I served. I have friends still serving. Let’s accept for the moment your absurd claim to mind read everyone in the military and that 2/3’s are Republican and 1/3 Democrat (whatever that means, as if either label contains a monolithic set of positions).

    Your position is in the same spirit of the divisive and disgusting attacks on Kerry’s military service – funded by the same dishonest and dishonorable people who attacked McCains service and called him a traitor during the Republican primaries. Your statement disparages 1/3 of our dead for their politics. Fuck you.

    Cerebral Waste, I lived in San Diego CA, Groton Connecticut, and San Francisco CA during my stateside service. I had eggs thrown at me in San Diego, but otherwise was well treated by the (mostly conservative) residents. I agree that San Francisco, has many wierdos but I never suffered a problem there when I wore my uniform, and not when I wore it home to NY. I served from 1979 through 1985. Perhaps your friend was referring to Vietnam era SF.

    There is no stark difference between the how Blue and Red state residents treat service members. Our biggest problems were in Norfolk Virginia, but it had nothing to do with politics, merely street crime.

  102. Ibn says:

    Steve:

    You’re a broken record.

    I am a broken record? heh… You’re the one talking to it! LOL!

    ———————————-

    Listen. Seriously. Are you interested in coherent discussion? I offer a pact of sorts:

    — You are to agree to unconditionally answer all my questions directed at you. —

    If you do not, then Im sorry, but I can only go by the statements that you make, and follow them to their logical conclusions, which usually involve falling down a deep chasm.

    Its very simple: Ibn ask person question, Ibn wants person to answer. If person does not answer, Ibn talks to other people. Ibn talks to other people about un-answered question to person.

    But if you want coherent DISCUSSION, agree to the statement below.

    * I, Steve, will answer all of Ibn’s questions, directly, and without ambiguity.

    There – Im extending my hand. Deal?

    -Ibn

  103. Jared

    It was the mid to late 90’s in San Fran.

  104. Jared in NYC says:

    Cerebral Waste,

    I’ve been there recently and didn’t notice a problem, but SF is indeed full of odd persons. I do disagree that there is a measurable difference between how uniformed service members are treated in (for instance) MA and AL.

    I have noticed that generally Republican southerners and generally Democratic northerners have some interesting biases about each other… until there’s a lot of contact. Personally, I’ve learned to greatly enjoy Southern warmth, manners, and a certain indirectness, and have been told often by an old Navy buddy from down in the Okeefenokee all the things he liked about NYC after several visits.

  105. Will says:

    M

    I make no objection to anybody putting forth an opinion but I may object to the opinion.

    Steve said

    Everytime somebody agrees with me I can hear their teeth grinding as they do it.

    Its because you take a reasonable premise and support it with extreme arguements.

  106. Steve The American says:

    Jared From NY: “If you haven’t seen good criticisms of the war in Iraq, then you only read and listen to sources that you agree with. Try Foreign Affairs, try the Economist, Try Public TV news, [etc]

    Jared, you have misinterpreted what I wrote. I did not say that I have not heard worthwhile criticisms of the war in Iraq. What I did say is that I have not heard many worthwhile criticisms of the war in this forum.

    And please, try not to be such a pretentious liberal snot. I peruse all those sources from time to time. Again, you think that anybody who disagrees with you is uninformed or uneducated in typical liberal elitist fashion. It was intellectually sterile pose when you did it last time and remains so this time. I keep hearing you talk about how smart you are but I’m not seeing the evidence. All I see is attitude.

    Steve said ” And it’s the conservatives from the heartland of America mainly, guys like me, who join the military and fight the fight. It’s not the sons of blue state professors nor big city newspaper editors nor TV producers in Manhattan. Oddly enough, it’s the liberals who largely have no family in the fight who want to retreat from Iraq.”

    Jared From NY: “Contrary to your false assertion, the fact is that some Democrats and some Republicans have called for withdrawal. I think that would be a mistake, and most Democrats and Republicans do also.”

    This is nonresponsive to my argument.

    Jared From NY: “I served. I have friends still serving. Let’s accept for the moment your absurd claim to mind read everyone in the military and that 2/3’s are Republican and 1/3 Democrat (whatever that means, as if either label contains a monolithic set of positions).

    It’s not telepathy. It’s sociological research which I learned at the Air Force Academy from reading Morris Janowitz “The Professional Soldier: A Social And Political Portrait,” (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006XSVJI/sr=8-34/qid=1146621197/ref=sr_1_34/002-7597671-3132848?%5Fencoding=UTF8) He determined the proportion by polling military officers in the early 1970s. More current research upholds that 2/3 proportion, though one study claims it dipped down to 1/3 in the 1980s. I find that hard to believe during the Reagan era.

    Quite frankly, I’ve seen a lot of liberals who haven’t done their homework on an issue call conservatives crazy who present them with facts. You’re just another one, a partisan hack some might say. You have not informed yourself on this issue, which is understandable on such an obscure topic. However, your claim that such a figure derives from mind reading and is absurd is pretty foolish.

    Jared From NY: “Your position is in the same spirit of the divisive and disgusting attacks on Kerry’s military service – funded by the same dishonest and dishonorable people who attacked McCains service and called him a traitor during the Republican primaries. Your statement disparages 1/3 of our dead for their politics. Fuck you.”

    You’re getting pretty desperate with this shrill rhetoric. And your conclusion is about the highest level of intellectual discourse I see from most liberals. If you were as smart as you keep claiming, you’d be able to make a more intelligent argument than this.

    Jared From NY: “There is no stark difference between the how Blue and Red state residents treat service members. Our biggest problems were in Norfolk Virginia, but it had nothing to do with politics, merely street crime.”

    I have never gotten anything but a warm welcome in uniform in middle America, except for spots in Colorado. It was pretty common to be abused when passing through transportation hubs in Big Blue Cities like LA. I’ll admit this was back during the tail end of Vietnam.

    While I have not been in uniform for years, I do notice that the respect for the military differs in casual conversation depending on whether the locale is majority conservative or majority liberal. Maybe I am especially tuned to this, but it is very noticeable as you travel.

    Steve

  107. Steve The American says:

    Ibn,

    I am responding to your arguments now because you have ceased to be a broken record and are making reasonable dialogue. However, you suffer from being a control freak and your logical reasoning is weak. If you want to respond to my actual positions, I’d be happy to argue it out with you. But if you want to use dubious logic to claim I say “cat” when I said “dog,” I won’t waste my time on you. I’ll talk to the adults instead.

    Steve

  108. Jared in NYC says:

    All you can do Steve is trot out the “L” word and deny your own words. Your record is clear enough and stands for itself. I don’t believe your claims to mean things other than what you have said, or your claims to have read much balanced material. Unlike you, I don’t disrepect people for their beliefs… until they cross into hateful and dishonest comments like yours regarding who serves in the military. Certainly not the people who sent us to war.

  109. Steve The American says:

    Jared,

    I’ve given you the source text that gives the 2/3 conservative figure. Here is the more recent article which confirms the 2/3 Republican figure: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2751/is_2000_Fall/ai_65576870/pg_6
    These are the facts. This is why I make the 2/3 claim. You may not like the reality they represent but that’s the way it goes. May I note that your opinion is fact-free so far, based on nothing but your wishful thinking that liberals support the military equal to conservatives. They don’t.

    You might also consider that people can read the same thing and come to different conclusions about it due to differences in experience and education. Liberals prefer everyone thinks alike.

    Some of the sources you cite are not exactly balanced. Foreign Affairs is hardly a balanced magazine. This months issue has a title that reads something like “Looking at Baghdad, Seeing Saigon.” That tells me the bias of the piece from the beginning, the sad lefty attempt to fit Iraq in the Vietnam template, despite the many differences. FA tends to be a left of center source, well reasoned, but often in the service of a flawed idea.

    Steve

  110. Citizen Quasar says:

    “May 2nd, 2006 at 9:42 am
    Mahmood:

    “Citizen Quazar: Yes. These were just cheap shots from me. I wish I had been better composed when I wrote them.”

    You have a severe problem with alcohol and I suggest you get yourself into a rehabilitation program. Every time you get drunk you come and dump on us with your vitriol. I’m fed up of it, and I’m sure quite the majority here are too.

    Therefore, you are no longer welcome here. You are more than welcome to start your own ranting space, but you’re not going to do it here.”

    “May 2nd, 2006 at 11:29 am

    Ibn:

    “Citizen Quazar said:
    ibn: It is the MUSLIMS in IRAN that want to start a nuclear war.
    I see. You must be Iranian.
    -Ibn “

    Ibn: This response is especially retarded. It lacks logic. AND, since it was made after Mahmood kicked me off his comment section, qualifies as a “cheap shot” in and of itself.
    —CQ

    Mahmood: You are SO right.
    I came to the comment section in this blog in the hope that I might communicate with people from around the world on a number of (of times) controversial topics in a sane, rational, and logical method.
    Alas, I have made a fool of myself due to my abuse of alcohol. I must get a grip on this before I get on the Internet and come to places like this. Thank you for your hospitality.
    Good bye.

    —Dan

  111. Ibn says:

    Steve,

    Yes, keep the insults coming. Yes yes, a control freak, yes yes, my logic is weak. puny. unbalanced. Sure. Feel better that you got that out of your system? Now answer this:

    Care to agree to the proposition I laid out for you? All that is being asked for is coherent discussion, with you, answering (directly) the questions asked of you. Yay, or Nay? Its a simple question. I would guess the answer would…eh…probably not take more than one line.

    -Ibn

  112. mahmood says:

    Steve, allow me to jump in here to try to calm a situation that seems to be going out of control: you really don’t need to nitpick, you really need to relax. We all know how passionate you are for the subjects that you believe in, and we applaud you for your commitment to their defence. But what you’re doing from my point of view – and others it seems – is simply doing what the terrorists are doing!

    What the terrorists are doing is distancing the majority of the world from Muslims and Islam, while what you’re doing is distancing the moderates from you (the West).

    Will said it best about your various comments and positions:

    you take a reasonable premise and support it with extreme arguements.

    You really need to relax and go out and do some gardening or whatever it is you do to relax. The world is okay, generally, and both you (the West) and us (the East) are cornering and eradicating terrorists, and we both agree that it will take time. It will just take much longer if all your positions conclude with complete and utter contempt for a belief system shared by more than 1/6th of the world’s population.

  113. Ibn says:

    Quazar said:

    This response is especially retarded. It lacks logic. AND, since it was made after Mahmood kicked me off his comment section, qualifies as a “cheap shot” in and of itself.

    Umm…you could have responded, since you are still here and made the above comment…but then again, everything’s kinda hazy when you’re plastered 24/7 aint it? My only hope is that your next alcoholic drink is wound disinfectant.

    -Ibn

  114. Lujayn says:

    Ibn, just for the record, Lujayn is a “she” not a “he”. 🙂

  115. M says:

    Will,
    “I make no objection to anybody putting forth an opinion but I may object to the opinion.”
    Granted, and if I implied otherwise, than please accept my apology.

    “dont know if Steve is doing more harm than good but I think that he is detracting from the argument that Islam needs a mechanism for change.”
    No doubt he gets scrolled by some people, but I think he focuses on the need for change by people who can help effect that change for their benefit as well as the rest of us.

    “The terrorists of today use religion as a shield and banner in an effort to legitamize their dispicable conduct and it should be rejected. Its a red herring. Islam plays a part but doesnt it have more to do with ego and power?”
    The fact of the matter is that the majority of terror in the world today is committed by Muslims; it is therefore logical to look to Muslims to help resolve the problem. Does that make the some, all or most Muslims terrorists, certainly not. It may be about Islam for a few, but it is the old power, money and greed deal that it always is about.

    Steve,
    “Where. Is. The. Love? That’s all I’m asking.”
    Don’t ever think for a minute I don’t appreciate who you are, your knowledge, your commitment to your beliefs and willingness to put in the time and effort to piss people off. It’s a dirty job, and someone has to do it; but as Mahmood has said, lighten up alittle.

  116. Will says:


    In my view, they are culpable for pulling themselves away from the violence, by aggravating the violence through indifference. It’s hard to see how you could argue that they have not contributed to this violence by walking away, by turning their backs on it.

    Steve

    Be your brothers keeper. Yes, a noble and altruistic sentiment. The same way that I am responsible for the homelessness of every homeless person that I do not take into my home. Enabling a drunk in your family is not the same as walking away from a street crime or failing to attend some public demonstration.

    I agree that there is a such a thing as the ‘butterfly effect’ but you cant blame the butterfly for the hurricane.

  117. Will says:

    M

    The fact of the matter is that the majority of terror in the world today is committed by Muslims; it is therefore logical to look to Muslims to help resolve the problem. Does that make the some, all or most Muslims terrorists, certainly not. It may be about Islam for a few, but it is the old power, money and greed deal that it always is about.

    I completely agree.

  118. Ethan says:

    Of course, the retardedness is not limited to extremists like Osama.

    Even Quadhafi gets in on the act:

    http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1121

    Of course he’s a loon, but what if Europe became Islamic? Where would the Saudis go to vacation?

  119. jaffa says:

    “The fact of the matter is that the majority of terror in the world today is committed by Muslims.”

    What do you mean by terror, Steve? Colombian drug para-militaries? US bombing civilan targets? Israeli demolitions? Nepali Marxists? Brazilian favellas? Chinese executions?

    There’s a lot of terror in the world, MOST of it not committed by Muslims. It’s hardly a “fact” you intellectual wannabe. Unless you define terror as “violence committed by Muslims” which, it seems, you do.

  120. Steve The American says:

    So I’ve been reading this interesting book by Robert McKee called “Story,” all about screenwriting. McKee claims that to develop a protagonist you must build up the forces of antagonism in the story. The greater the antagonist, the more richly revealed the character of the protagonist. He claims that character is demonstrated best under stress rather than everyday life. To show what virtues a protagonist values most, you must take him to the extreme, make him decide between bad and worse. The most compelling narratives are illustrated with such extreme situations.

    It’s an interesting theory, don’t you think?

    Steve

  121. jaffa says:

    That’s beautiful, Steve.

  122. Steve The American says:

    M: “The fact of the matter is that the majority of terror in the world today is committed by Muslims.”

    Jaffa: “What do you mean by terror, Steve? Colombian drug para-militaries? US bombing civilan targets? Israeli demolitions? Nepali Marxists? Brazilian favellas? Chinese executions?

    There’s a lot of terror in the world, MOST of it not committed by Muslims. It’s hardly a “fact” you intellectual wannabe. Unless you define terror as “violence committed by Muslims” which, it seems, you do.”

    Jaffa, you are mistakenly projecting your vitriol at me when M is your proper target, being the author of the comments to which you so strenuously object. However, I do appreciate your enthusiasm, ill-guided though it may be.

    You have a cunning, though incorrect, argument: diluting the proportion of Islamic terror by expanding the definition of terror. Though obviously flawed, even if you win your point it amounts to saying Islamic terror is not so bad because other people do it, too.

    Good Luck With That,

    Steve

  123. Jaffa

    I would say you owe Steve an apology.

    Secondly do you have any FACTS to back up your assertions? Or just bluster and hot air?

  124. Anonymous says:

    Jaffa;

    A favella is a slum.

  125. Steve The American says:

    Will: “Be your brothers keeper. Yes, a noble and altruistic sentiment. The same way that I am responsible for the homelessness of every homeless person that I do not take into my home. Enabling a drunk in your family is not the same as walking away from a street crime or failing to attend some public demonstration.”

    The point is that you affect your community by your example. You liberal types like to call it “social responsibility.” The Confucians would say that if you want to save the world, start with yourself, “the man in the mirror” in the words of the sage, Michael Jackson.

    You enable the pathologies in your society by your behavior, active or passive, or disable them just as you enable the pathologies in your family, or disable them.

    It’s like those 38 New Yorkers who listened to Kitty Genovese be stabbed, beaten, raped, and killed outside their apartment building without anyone calling the police. They ignored her cries for help. So, since they were not out there helping a madman attack her, would you say they had no responsibility for her death? Would you agree that their desire “not to get involved” was the most moral position? Or would you agree with me that they share responsibility for her death by their inaction, that they were involved whether they wanted to be or not?

    Steve

  126. tooners says:

    Steve,

    Against my better judgment, I’m here to say that I do agree on some of your points. This latest one is a good one and I do believe that the New Yorkers share the responsibility of her death by not acting. You’ve made some other good points that are relevant to this but I don’t think a lot of ppl are getting it.

    You have strong views and are an interesting read, that’s for sure. AND, you make me think a lot and that’s a good thing.

  127. M says:

    Well it looks like Steve can get in trouble even when he doesn’t say anything; if there is anything else I can do to help you out Steve, please let me know.

    Jaffa,

    You are right. My words were ill chosen. You can be sure, however, that I will be now looking over my shoulder for a Nepali Marxist.

  128. jaffa says:

    I know what a favella is. You don’t think violence in a favella is “terror?”

    And yes, I owe Steve an apology.

    I’m not expanding the definition of terror, I think the word you’re looking for is “terrorism”, that’s a very different concept. If you want to have an intellectual argument, at least keep some standards.

  129. As general defintion(s) will these do for the sake of the discussion Jaffa? Do your thoughts and ideas follow these definitions?

    Merriam-Webster

    Main Entry: terror
    Function: noun
    Pronunciation: ‘ter-&r
    Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French terreur, from Latin terror, from terrere to frighten; akin to Greek trein to be afraid, flee, tremein to tremble — more at TREMBLE
    1 : a state of intense fear
    2 a : one that inspires fear : SCOURGE b : a frightening aspect c : a cause of anxiety : WORRY d : an appalling person or thing ; especially : BRAT
    3 : REIGN OF TERROR
    4 : violence (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands

    Main Entry: terrorism
    Function: noun
    Pronunciation: ‘ter-&r-“i-z&m
    : the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
    – ter·ror·ist/-&r-ist/ adjective or noun
    – ter·ror·is·tic/”ter-&r-‘is-tik/ adjective

  130. Steve The American says:

    tooners: “Against my better judgment, I’m here to say that I do agree on some of your points. This latest one is a good one and I do believe that the New Yorkers share the responsibility of her death by not acting. You’ve made some other good points that are relevant to this but I don’t think a lot of ppl are getting it.”

    More agreement with the requisite teeth grinding, I see. No matter, welcome to the side of the angels! I am dispatching a team to your home for further induction into the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy. They should be arriving in thirty minutes, two guys in a white panel truck that says “ROVE PLUMBING.” Once they install the wireless brain implant, you’ll be One Of Us.

    Steve

  131. tooners says:

    I’m not grinding…. but biting.

    30 mins. from the States to Bahrain… now, where was that flight just a few days back when I needed it??

  132. Steve The American says:

    We have guys everywhere, tooners. In Bahrain, the truck will be labelled “ROVE SHAWARMAS”.

    Everywhere, tooners,

    Steve

  133. Steve

    Tooners doesn’t like shawarma. More gorey details to follow in the upcoming CerebralWaste interview of “TOONERS”. Coming soon….

  134. Ibn says:

    Ok Steve,

    Ill take your lack of response as a resounding “no, I will not answer Ibns questions”. Ill make this short, because I have finals to study for.

    MASS ANOUNCEMENT: STEVE WILL NOT ANSWER YOUR COUNTER-QUESTIONS IF HE FEELS CORNERED.

    On with it then:

    Islam, like any other man-made structure, changes. Things are added, subtracted, and modified. The most dramatic way it is changing today is the way the Wahhabis are pushing it toward active warfare against the non-Muslim world and terror.

    False. I will show this is wrong even if I think its true. But first of all, when an idea is changed, in any way, its not the same idea. Very very similar perhaps, but not the same. Two ideas cannot be called “the same idea” if one of them varies from the other. A not equal to B. So again, Islam cannot be pushed, or pulled, but variants (other ideas) can be formed however. Perhaps this is what Steve means. I will show that even if he DOES mean this, (which is correct), that you still cant use collective blame:

    Lets say the Islam as Mohammad intended it to be is just called “Islam”. Then Wahabbis modify it (new idea), and create Islam-W. And Sufis who are fond of dancing come along, and we have Islam-S. And Osama and his passi come along and you now have Islam-O. Islam-O typfied by mass indiscriminant violence. (very political too). Then of course we have Islam-P, describing the Islamic variant (new idea again), of mnay Muslims you see around you, that pretty much get on with their lives, not commiting mass indiscriminant violence, working, and maybe getting laid. This is emperical evidence.

    Now Steve is saying “Islam needs to be pulled away from violence”. Presumably, he is talking about Islam-O. More presumably, he probably wants Islam-O to morph into a more peacefull Islam…lets call that Islam-P…but wait! We already HAVE Islam-P – about a billion people practice it! Does Steve not see this?

    ****
    In effect, Islam has already been “pulled” towards, and reached, the Islam-P variant, by virtue of about a billion people who call themselves Muslims, AND do not engage is senseless violence. This is the key point. And this is what Steve has missed. Its already here.
    ****

    The second issue here is culpability. People who practice Islam-P, have NO OBLIGATION to go around, find, lecture, and be watchdogs, over people of Islam-O. Not only is it just straight up dangerous, (as MANY individuals have died this way), but to imply a “duty or else” would imply slavery. It would mean, that unless a non-violent Muslim of Islam-P actively stopped their entire lives to search and destroy people of Islam-O, that they are repsonsible. This is nothing but slavery – the good people of Islam-P would be forever held by a leash by Islam-O. Individual rights, mean people are responsible for their own actions. Period. Luyajn (Islam-P) is not responsible for the actions of Osama Bin Laden (Islam-O), and do imply that unless she goes out and preaches day in and day out to people of Islam-O is impractical, and immoral. This is why I refered to Steve as a “confederate” because they believed in collective rights. Thankfully, the Union put them back in order.

    Where did Steve imply this about Lujayn? Where did he imply that she must “resist” (how is not specified), or else share in the blame for murdering 3000+ people? Right here:

    May 2nd, 2006 at 9:53 pm: Steve The American: If you let Islam be pulled toward terror without adding your tiny bit of resistance, then you share in the blame for its violent vector, if only a tiny bit.

    She has already “resisted” by not blowing you up. She has resisted through her actions, and example. She’s not going to write a book about it, unless she wants to. And to this, Steve gives her the “resist or else” ultimatum? If I were her, i’d spit in Steve’s face. But she is probably a much more sensible lady.

    Lujayn, allow me to wash your reputation off from Steve’s vile. If you are a Muslim, of Islam-P, (which you are apparently), then I respect you 100%. You are NOT responsible for the actions of Osama, unlike what Stevehas said. You are NOT responsible for murderous terrorists, unlike what Steve has implied. You, as any other individual, have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and I applaud you for excersising those rights.

    (Part of my pursuit of happiness involves removing and bringing light to evil stances like those of Steve The Confederate, and Islamic Fasicsts when I come across them.)

    You have my support. 🙂

    This also takes care of this:

    Steve: I have made no such accusation against Lujayn. You have invented this. I challenge you to point it out.

    Challenge accepted, and met. See your own quote above doofus. I thought elephants never forget…maybe republican elephants are different.

    ————————–

    I disagree. What about a couple years ago when Al Qaeda gunmen shot some British guy on the street in Saudi Arabia. Passing Saudis refused to help him as he lay bleeding. In your view, those Saudi Muslims are blameless because they are not the ones who perpetrated the violence. In my view, they are culpable for pulling themselves away from the violence,

    This is probably THE-WORST example to date. You see a dead dude on the street, and if you do NOT rush to help him, you are culpable of murder?! And if you happen to be a Muslim, and the dying dude happens to be British, then you support terror?!? WoW!

    Ive seen dead people on the street. I have stayed awwaayyyyyy from them, and I call the police. In some states one must help. In others, if you dont, its ok and understandable. In fact there is a whole debate on the psychology of why people in the street dont help others who are injured.
    To marry this to support of terror, is a cheap shot. Its pathetic. Did you really not have a better example?

    HOW does Steve know the passer byers werent simply scared?
    HOW does Steve know that they knew it was Islamic terrorists who commited it?
    HOW does Steve know that they didnt want to help him because he was British?
    HOW does Steve know that in their assessment, the situation was probably volatile, and they didnt want to risk THEIR own lives?
    HOW does Steve know that they knew that maybe there were other gunmen in the vicinity?
    HOW does Steve know that the religion of the passer-byers even came to play in this whole sharade, and not just adranaline?

    Pathtic. Real pathetic example. Worthy of its author.

    Quite frankly, Ibn, if you hate people who don’t respond to counter-arguments, you must hate yourself quite a bit. You don’t make rebuttals.

    Right. You’re looking at my counter arguments. I expect answer to each-and-EVERY counter-question I have directed at you. If you feel cornered, feel free to do what you usually do, and ignore it.

    I disagree. When that fisherman makes landfall and reacts to the news of the Saudi attacks, he supports or rejects it through his example. He pushes or pulls the popular opinion a hair one way or another.

    Maybe he is too busy to care. Maybe he doesnt know about it. Maybe he heard about it and shakes his head and moves on. Maybe he is a quiet type who doesnt talk politics. Maybe he is indifferent. Maybe he realises its so bad its not worth wasting time on. Maybe he has bigger problems, and realises the USA can take care of itself. Maybe he subscribes to the “life’s a bitch” philosophy. Maybe he saw it coming. Maybe he didnt. Maybe he has never left his insignificant village. Maybe he is a multi-million dollar financier who builds sprokets. Maybe he doesnt support killing people, but could see it coming. Maybe he says “thats messed up” and moves on. Maybe he has too many kids to care.

    Ridiculous. Life is more complicated than Steve would like. He is also taking Bush’s with-us-or-against-us stance, (Bush was refering to State governments), and applied this to the infinately variable stances of individuals. Here’s the hard truth Steve: Some people just dont give a shit about the USA’s problems. And if you ask me, alot of Americans dont give a shit about the world’s problems either. I dont blame either one. But its mutual. Live with it.

    -Ibn

  135. Ibn

    Do us all a favor and quit your petty posturing. I do believe it is getting rather old. Manup and move on.

    I and I am sure a few others are having “Malikian” type nightmares with your constant dribble back and forth.

  136. Ibn says:

    Cerebral,

    “Malikian”? Whats that? Never heard of it. Re-state it after you give your head an enema please.

    -Ibn

  137. Anonymous says:

    Steve said
    The point is that you affect your community by your example. You liberal types like to call it “social responsibility.”

    I dont have much use for political labels other than in a vague sense. They serve to blur issues that cannot be directly addressed. Similar to ‘straw man arguements’. Coming from you it sounds a little dirisive but I understand your desire to polarize issues.

    Or would you agree with me that they share responsibility for her death by their inaction, that they were involved whether they wanted to be or not?

    No I dont think that I do agree that they are responsible. Cowardly maybe, missed an opportunity to do some good. If it happened outside of my door I would feel responsible and obligated to act.


    The most compelling narratives are illustrated with such extreme situations.

    It’s an interesting theory, don’t you think?

    This approach is most effective and necessary when trying to communicate with people of limited education. Widely used in Hollywood. Even then they know its just a story. Maybe I missed your point but if thats what your doing here I think its disingenuous and arrogant.

  138. Will says:

    That was me.

  139. mahmood says:

    CerebralWaste: Do us all a favor and quit your petty posturing. I do believe it is getting rather old. Manup and move on

    Mark, who put you in a position of policeman on this site? You can say that kind of thing on your site, not mine. Ibn has as much a right to speak his mind in whatever dogmatic way as he pleases, just as Steve has and I am sure will continue to do so.

  140. Just speaking my mind Mahmood. Sorry if I stepped on your toes.

  141. mahmood says:

    Mark you didn’t step on my toes. You were unnecessarily rude to someone you obviously disagree with, and second, you assumed the role of the owner of this blog which you are not, in desciplining a fellow guest. A private note to me with your concerns would have been more appropriate.

    If you don’t like something you read here, don’t read it, scroll and move on.

  142. I apologize Mahmood for overreaching. It honestly wasn’t my intent. Frustration got the best of me. Ibn I apologize to you as well. I was out of line. I admit it.

  143. Ibn says:

    No problem dude. 🙂

    -Ibn

  144. mahmood says:

    glad this is sorted in a gentlemanly fashion.

    back on-topic!

  145. Lujayn says:

    In case anyone picks up on the conversation in its later stages and finds Steve supposedly accusing me of being a terrorist and Ibn defending me, I just need to point out, they’re using me as an example (it that is not in any way clear) – I have never been, am not and never will be involved in any act of violence, big or small, national or international, actual or virtual. Just thought I should clarify that 🙂

  146. mahmood says:

    And I can vouch for Lujayn!

  147. Steve The American says:

    May I point out the obvious: that I have not accused Lujayn of being a terrorist, a wild and unfounded claim.

    Steve

  148. Lujayn says:

    You really need read carefully, Steve. I said “supposedly”. I didnt say you accused me of it. And I did say you and Ibn were using me as an example. It was an attempt at a light-hearted joke. Stop being so defensive.

  149. Steve The American says:

    Lujayn, I’m just clearing up the confusion. People have accused me so often of wanting to nuke Saudi Arabia, which I never have, that many on this forum believe they heard me say that. As Lenin said, a lie repeated often enough becomes the truth. I’m just trying to repeat the truth often enough to compete with the lie.

    Steve

  150. Lujayn says:

    You tend to repeat other things often enough too, and they arent necessarily truths, but I’ll concede this one is.

  151. Lujayn says:

    I am curious, Steve, what is it that you do? I cant imagine anyone with a full-time job having time to write the prolific responses that you write. You’re up across all time zones, you write in response to everything and everyone. I cant keep up with you, despite the lenient boss and the accomodating family. I know you wont give me an honest answer, but I was just curious and needed to ask.

  152. Steve The American says:

    Lujayn,

    Why wouldn’t I give you an honest answer?

    I administer software that never breaks down, which puts me in the sad situation of waiting around for things to go wrong. The only time things go to heck in a hand basket is when system administrators go changing things without telling me. Then I’m really busy for weeks fixing it. That happens about once every eighteen months.

    Otherwise, I wait around for users to have problems. There are only about half a dozen problems they usually have and I can fix all of them in a couple minutes. Sometimes I train people or set up new projects. I’m rather happy when a user breaks my system in some new and unusual way, because that means I learn something and can work. Unfortunately, my users aren’t very good at breaking things. I’d have more work if we hired dumber people.

    So I read up on administration of the tools all day and when I get bored with that, go read the news on the net or see what’s up on Mahmood’s Den. Sometimes, I feel like writing a lot, sometimes I get tired of it and do other things. I’m loquacious lately.

    Steve

  153. Ibn says:

    Thank you Lujayn,

    And since every one is busy making clarifications, let me clarify this:
    Steve said:

    May I point out the obvious: that I have not accused Lujayn of being a terrorist, a wild and unfounded claim.

    He did not accuse of you of being a terrorist, Lujayn.

    But he has accuse you of being responsible for the murder of 3000+ people on Sep11th. The accusation quote is highlighted on my post above.

    -Ibn

  154. Steve The American says:

    False. Here is your quote of me:

    May 2nd, 2006 at 9:53 pm: Steve The American: If you let Islam be pulled toward terror without adding your tiny bit of resistance, then you share in the blame for its violent vector, if only a tiny bit.

    Lujayn may be a founding member of Al Qaeda. She may be Irshad Manji using an alias, a fierce critic of Al Qaeda and Muslim dysfunction. She may be something in between. I don’t know whether she resists Islamic terror or not. Therefore, I can not apportion blame to her and have not.

    This is why I say your logic is sloppy, Ibn. In this case you have misapplied an assertion to a particular case in error, simply because you don’t read things carefully nor really understand what they mean. In addition, you’re a dishonest guy, making up bogus positions instead of responding to actual ones. That’s why I don’t respect most of your posts enough to reply to them any more than I would waste my time arguing with a deluded street person calling me a Martian.

    Steve

  155. Steve The American says:

    Steve: “The most compelling narratives are illustrated with such extreme situations.”

    Will: “This approach is most effective and necessary when trying to communicate with people of limited education. Widely used in Hollywood. Even then they know its just a story. Maybe I missed your point but if thats what your doing here I think its disingenuous and arrogant.”

    Actually, it’s the approach used in the greatest literature, so that would make Shakespeare disingenuous and arrogant in his treatment of “Romeo & Juliet,” always taking each scene to the extreme and filling it with violence and death. Harper Lee took things to the extreme in “To Kill A Mockingbird,” Melville went to extremes in “Moby Dick,” Daniel Dafoe in “Robinson Crusoe,” Homer in the “Iliad.” That puts me in pretty good company, though disingenuous and arrogant in your view.

    Steve

  156. Ibn says:

    This is why I say your logic is sloppy, Ibn. In this case you have misapplied an assertion to a particular case in error, simply because you don’t read things carefully nor really understand what they mean. In addition, you’re a dishonest guy, making up bogus positions instead of responding to actual ones.

    My bets are that Lujayn, like a majority of Muslims, have not “gone out and publically” announced that they are against terror. More than likely, she is just a sane, rational person.

    Would this count as “pulling Islam towards the anti-violence” part to Steve? Probably not. As such, I would say there is a 90%+ probability that you accuse Lujayn of being responsible for murdering 3000+ people.

    Lujayn, have you ever gone out to public rallies and decried terrorism, insane violence, and the such?

    -Ibn

  157. Steve The American says:

    Again, you mistate my case, confirming my point that you argue dishonestly. What’s so hard about being honest, Ibn?

    Steve

  158. Will says:

    Actually, it’s the approach used in the greatest literature

    Indeed it is Steve. As interesting and provoking as your posts are I am not sure they fall into the category of great literature. Are you saying that your comments are really a gross exaggeration of your real opinions?

  159. tooners says:

    Seems that ppl want to argue for the sake of arguing. Sometimes, when you try to make a point, no matter what approach, it never satifies or… ppl just don’t GET it.

    Gosh, I love great literature… that’s some of the best.

  160. Ibn says:

    What’s so hard about being honest, Ibn?

    Oh look a question! For me! See Steve…thats good…thats good…this is the first part…its called a “question”. See, now..now….usually there is also an “answer” to go along with it. Ok now you try. Give me, an “answer”..to this question:

    Why so hard answering questions directed at you Steve? Hmm?

    -Ibn

  161. Steve The American says:

    Why are you beating your wife, Ibn? Answer the question.

    Your questions are loaded, ie the premises are faulty. That’s why they are not worth answering. It’s part of the fallacious way you argue and your general dishonest approach to dialogue.

    Steve

  162. Steve The American says:

    Will: “Indeed it is Steve. As interesting and provoking as your posts are I am not sure they fall into the category of great literature.”

    Oh well, I guess I won’t be getting that book deal I’ve been shopping around: “Greatest Hits of Mahmood’s Den” by Steve the American. I was hoping to retire on that. Still, by borrowing a bit of their literary method, I remain in good company.

    Will: “Are you saying that your comments are really a gross exaggeration of your real opinions?”

    I think you have to argue from the extreme positions of a topic to delineate its outline fully.

    If you entered a dark room and wanted to know how big it was, would you just walk in the door, stretch out your arms, and declare it to be two arms lengths wide? Or would you turn left and walk until you hit the wall, right until you hit another wall, right again to the wall. You would find the shape of that room by exploring its extremes, not its middle.

    If you explore the extremes of a topic, you will find the shape of it. The answer probably lies within those boundaries you have discovered. If you only explore the moderate center, you only find answers by accident and rarely the optimal solution.

    Steve

  163. M says:

    Steve,
    “I think you have to argue from the extreme positions of a topic to delineate its outline fully.”

    There’s not doubt you practice what you preach which gets you the most favored American who we love to hate status around here. The problem with it is that once you put it out there, it’s hard to back away from your words. Admittedly you’ve gone from eliminating KSA and indiscrimately burning cities to annihilating the Wahhabi clergy and hoping the civilians don’t get caught in the mess.

    The other problem with extreme positions are they are impractical sometimes. You know very well we are not going to annihilate the Wahhabi clergy or the royal family. Not saying we couldn’t or that it will never happen, but the probablity of it happening is almost nonexistent. Doesn’t mean I don’t agree they are dangerous to us and many other people around the world, but your solution isn’t viable; so what is your point other than to get people thinking and ruffle some feathers?

    Change is going to come eventually, and it will come from within not by invading SA or putting out a contract on a bunch of clergy. Probably take about 500 years, and a lot of people are going to be hurt along the way, but as a species we collectively do not have the balls to do the right thing. Try lightening up alittle and not holding everyone’s feet to the fire and maybe it will only take 400 years.

  164. Aliandra says:

    M,

    I would agree if Saudi Arabia didn’t export its problems elsewhere. But when they’re funding terrorism and indoctrinating young men with a murderous idealogy that knows no borders, the world won’t wait 400 years for change to come “from within”.

    An invasion probably wouldn’t solve anything, but their feet do need to be held to the fire by the international community. Unfortunately, the addiction to oil makes too many countries look the other way, the US included.

  165. M says:

    Well, it’s not that I don’t agree that they are exporting terror as a way to gain more power in the world and retain their power inside Saudi Arabia, but even if the world wanted to do something, the most the international community would do is a bad scolding for ten or twenty years like Saddam. That changes nothing.

    I think the ME has missed their chance with Iraq; all you have to do is read Mahmood’s posts for the last 3 years and the change is minimal, and that’s being generous. So it’s two steps forward and three back. Sorry, but I have zero faith in the international community to do anything but give everyone lip service while they are lining their pockets.

  166. Aliandra says:

    “Sorry, but I have zero faith in the international community to do anything but give lip service”

    Nothing illustrates that better than Darfur.

  167. Ibn says:

    An invasion probably wouldn’t solve anything, but their feet do need to be held to the fire by the international community.

    Aliandra, I suspect M was referring to the feet of people on this forum, being held to the fire, more so than foreign governments’ feet, when he stated:

    Try lightening up alittle and not holding everyone’s feet to the fire and maybe it will only take 400 years.

    I think you have dropped the context, Aliandra.

    -Ibn

  168. Steve The American says:

    M: “There’s not doubt you practice what you preach which gets you the most favored American who we love to hate status around here.”

    Hate? I like to think of it as twisted love. My own theory is that I am a guilty pleasure for many lurkers and that I am saying what many think, but can not say themselves.

    M: “Admittedly you’ve gone from eliminating KSA and indiscrimately burning cities to annihilating the Wahhabi clergy and hoping the civilians don’t get caught in the mess.”

    I admit no such thing. Saudi Arabia must be destroyed. By that, I mean it’s government, not its people. Saudi Arabia is a fundamentally evil construct in which Saudi princes feed hundreds of millions of petrodollars to Wahhabi savages. Nothing good can come of that. We have seen the evil the Wahhabis have done around the world since the 1980s when they decided to exported their contemptible death cult. The latest increases in oil prices will bring more resources to serve their evil ends. That connection between oil wealth and Wahhabis must be broken.

    The Saudis may rein in the Wahhabi madmen when the heat gets hot but in time they will relax and let them do their worst again. We will be on the Wahhabi terror roller coaster for generations unless direction action is taken against them to decisively end it.

    My reading of history produces no examples of murderous ideologies spontaneously changing for the best nor being tickled into better behavior. The only examples I know where such movements were ended are Japan and Germany, where we punished them so severely that they gave up their former systems of extremist beliefs and now profess pacifism.

    When I read of how the hard core of Saudi terrorists in Gitmo shout to each other to proclaim the acts of terror they perpetrated and be proud of them, how they fight doctors and nurses who are treating them, and how they throw their bodily fluids and waste at their guards, I’d say that peaceable measures to pacify Wahhabis are doomed.

    M: “The other problem with extreme positions are they are impractical sometimes. You know very well we are not going to annihilate the Wahhabi clergy or the royal family. Not saying we couldn’t or that it will never happen, but the probablity of it happening is almost nonexistent. Doesn’t mean I don’t agree they are dangerous to us and many other people around the world, but your solution isn’t viable; so what is your point other than to get people thinking and ruffle some feathers?”

    It’s just the Wahhabi clergy who require annihilation. I don’t begrudge the Saudis their money or their hypocrisy, although it would be satisfying to see some of these effete princes have to work for a living. It would be fabulously entertaining to have a Saudi prince ask me if I wanted fries with my meal at Mickey D’s, if he could qualify for the job.

    While I agree that we will not be annihilating Wahhabi clergy tomorrow, there’s always hope for the future. Their fanaticism will be their undoing. They will overplay their hand sometime in the future in such a bloody way that the full fury of the Western world will be focused on their heads. Maybe they will massacre a school full of children, plant a bomb in the Super Bowl, or poison a shopping mall. They can not help themselves from doing evil.

    Steve

  169. Ibn says:

    Steve said:

    Why are you beating your wife, Ibn? Answer the question.

    Your questions are loaded, ie the premises are faulty. That’s why they are not worth answering. It’s part of the fallacious way you argue and your general dishonest approach to dialogue.

    One clue to a dishonest debater, is when he calls YOU faulty, for holding him to a dictionary.

    Steve has a problem with Islamic terrorists, and Dictionaries. You claim us responsible for supporting the former. I claim him irresponsible for not following the latter. Sorry dude! Dont bite my head off just coz you dont agree with the meanings of words in your own native tongue! 🙂

    Oh, here’s another question: Is there a statute of limitations on how much time passes before a Muslim who has “publically condemned terrorism” as you wish has to do it again, since the condemnation in time “wears off”, and he will find himself again “responsible” for mass murder?

    If a Muslim comes out today and holds a poster board saying “I, social security number here, am a Muslim, and condemn terrorism”, does he have to do it again by the same date a year later, so that we are always sure of his allegiance? How much leniency does the Inquisitor have? 1 year? 2 years? 5 years with a fee?

    -Ibn

  170. Will says:

    Steve

    Saudi Arabia must be destroyed. By that, I mean it’s government, not its people. Saudi Arabia is a fundamentally evil construct in which Saudi princes feed hundreds of millions of petrodollars to Wahhabi savages. Nothing good can come of that.

    Well said Steve. Hey how about that…no teeth grinding!

  171. billT says:

    Steve in the 60’s the FBI sent people into liberal meetings to spy on people. 40 years later is it possible that your their latest version sent to websites to troll for terrorist and people with un-American views?

    Government employee spending job time on Mahmoods Den, baiting people, not answering direct questions or could it be that your just screwing your employer surfing on their time?

    You ever see Mel Brooks when he says “the lord gave me these 15 woops 10 commandments”? You should keep in mind that arrogance could have been one of those 5 missing commandments. 🙂

  172. Steve The American says:

    billT: “Steve in the 60’s the FBI sent people into liberal meetings to spy on people. 40 years later is it possible that your their latest version sent to websites to troll for terrorist and people with un-American views?”

    Time to double the dosage of those meds, billT. The current dose is not suppressing that psychotic delirium well.

    However, when I take pix of war protestors outside the White House and they ask me what I’m going to do with them, I do like to tell them that we need to know whose door to break down tonight when we arrest them. Boy is that funny! You should see the look on the faces of the protestors when they wonder for a moment if all that crap they spout about Amerikkka being a fascist state might be actually true.

    billT: “Government employee spending job time on Mahmoods Den, baiting people, not answering direct questions or could it be that your just screwing your employer surfing on their time?”

    BillT, don’t I wish I had enough work to fill up my day. I spend all day hoping somebody would break something so I could fix it. It’s not good to be idle in the computer racket. You only learn stuff when you’re busy solving problems. Unfortunately, all my stuff works well. I’m like the Maytag repairman.

    Steve

  173. Steve The American says:

    Ibn: “Steve has a problem with Islamic terrorists, and Dictionaries. You claim us responsible for supporting the former. I claim him irresponsible for not following the latter. Sorry dude! Dont bite my head off just coz you dont agree with the meanings of words in your own native tongue!”

    Ibn, this is your most entertaining rebuttal to date: ALL MY ARGUMENTS ARE TRUE BECAUSE THE WORDS COME RIGHT OUT OF A DICTIONARY, AND DICTIONARIES NEVER LIE!

    Well said, Dictionary Boy! What sane person could argue with that?

    Ibn: “Oh, here’s another question: Is there a statute of limitations on how much time passes before a Muslim who has “publically condemned terrorism” as you wish has to do it again, since the condemnation in time “wears off”, and he will find himself again “responsible” for mass murder?”

    Five times per day should cover it, once immediately after each set of prayers.

    Steve

  174. =( =P :love: =| =| :love: :grinnod: 8) =D :X 🙄 🙄 :yes: =( :no: 8) =D 🙂 😉 :yes: 🙄 :yes: 8) 8) :X 8) =D :grinnod: 😆 :love: =| =| :love: =| =P Totaly! :yes: =O =O :no: =| :love: =P 🙂 🙄 🙄 :yes: =D :grinnod: 😆 :love: =| :no: :X 8) =D

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